Tactical Reload is it time to revisit the technique

[octagon]

This thread is to keep all posts on the topic from cluttering up other threads that started in the LE Use of force thread about Tactical reload (Tac reload).

Please read carefully so there is no confusion on what each technique is and the specific concerns about each. Also PLEASE don't assume anything specifically that anyone is for or against taking a partially loaded gun and making it a fully loaded gun at a point in a shooting or gunfight. Also my entire reason for discussion is related only to self defense shooting by citizen concealed carry permit holders(CCH) and Law Enforcement officers(LEO).

First any of the described techniques are intended to be used after shots have been fired, during a defensive gunfight or shooting by CCH or LEO when an opportunity presents itself allowing for the citizen or officer to perform the technique (preferably behind cover, OR with other LEO(s) present with gun not being manipulated or haven't had fired a single shot or other related circumstances making the technique reasonable) This is NOT a discussion on the competitive side of these techniques or similar as the circumstances of risk are present in CCH or LEO shooting or gunfight and not in competition. Competition rules or stage requirements may dictate the tac reload,speed reload or similar which may be good practice but not intended to part of this discussion.

The below listed techniques are all intended to take a partially loaded handgun to full capacity during an opportune time in a shooting or gunfight prior to the gun being completely empty or slide lock condition.

Tactical Reload or Tac reload

Step 1 move support hand from 2 hand grip to full magazine
Step 2 grasp full magazine and move it to just below gun.
Step 3 drop partial magazine from gun into hand holding full magazine.
Step 4 insert full magazine while holding partial magazine in same support hand
Step 5 move support hand from near gun to beltline,empty magazine pouch or pocket
Step 6 secure partial magazine in location of choice.
Step 7 return support hand to 2 handed grip on gun

A real shooting where a LEO performs a Tac reload.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_PXle-vzbw Tac reload begins at 1min 36seconds


Speed Reload

Step 1 drop partial magazine from gun while moving support hand to full magazine.
Step 2 grasp full magazine and move it to gun’s empty magazine well
Step 3 insert full magazine
Step 4 return support hand to 2 handed grip

A real shooting where a LEO performs a Speed reload.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3OQsc_QjQE Speed reload begins at about 1 min 15 seconds.



Proactive reload

Step 1 move support hand to full magazine
Step 2 grasp full magazine and move it to gun
Step 3 as full magazine approaches gun press magazine button to eject partial magazine from gun
Step 4 insert full magazine into gun
Step 5 Return support hand to 2 handed grip

Here is a review and demonstration of the Proactive reload.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTG98opPuMs

Please use the above video examples as just a general example or single data point to discuss the individual technique and their strengths or weaknesses for individual use in the future and for the training and practice implications NOT personal attacks or support for the individual officers involved who thankfully survived their deadly encounters nor Jon at Active Self Protection whether you like him or hate him or the channel.



My premise is that the Tac reload as has been taught,practiced and suggested/recommended is not the best technique for use in topping of a partially loaded gun during a shooting/gunfight and should be replaced by the Proactive reload. My reasons are that the Tac reload takes more time and effort to learn and practice to be able to perform under pressure of actual shooting/gunfight than other techniques. The Tac reload requires more hand/finger dexterity than the other techniques which is diminished to some capacity during a shooting/gunfight. The Tac reload has the same or greater amount of time where the gun is a single shot weapon and/or is being operated by the dominant hand only. The Tac reload is farther from the conventional Slide lock reload techniques trained and taught at most schools,police academies, and basic firearms skills courses.

I am not saying that the Tac reload has not been performed,has not been performed under stress or that it is a useless or dumb technique. I am only suggesting that there is/are better technique(s) that could be used in the same circumstances that likely would require less training and practice to be performed well under stress. That the alternate technique(s) to top off the gun and do so along with getting or keeping 2 hands on the gun for a longer period of time. The alternate techniques require less dexterity and are thus more robust under stress. Lastly there are no documented cases of a CCH or LEO having ever performed a Tac reload or alternate technique where they needed to or chose to use the partial magazine to complete the defensive action in the shooting/gunfight.

[JohnO]

First of all the code names need to go. What does Tactical Reload mean to the uninitiated? Reload with Retention or Reload with out Retention is clearer and gets to the heart of the matter.

Do you feel comfortable dropping unused rounds given the circumstances? What are you carrying? I live in a Hell Hole where the non-LEO is not allowed to have more than 10 rounds in a magazine. I carry a 1911. If I fired 2 or 3 rounds and had one spare magazine of eight rounds I would not feel comfortable abandoning 40% of my available ammunition.

Since the operation of plusing up the gun is conducted during a lull in the action I am not going to get overly excited about the time benefits of one verses the other. The difference is relatively negligible.

[Totem Polar]

From a joe citizen civilian viewpoint, an argument can be made that there are just two kinds of reload: emergency, and administrative. I'll leave LE and .Mil to folks who would know.

[ASH556]

First of all the code names need to go. What does Tactical Reload mean to the uninitiated? Reload with Retention or Reload with out Retention is clearer and gets to the heart of the matter.

Do you feel comfortable dropping unused rounds given the circumstances? What are you carrying? I live in a Hell Hole where the non-LEO is not allowed to have more than 10 rounds in a magazine. I carry a 1911. If I fired 2 or 3 rounds and had one spare magazine of eight rounds I would not feel comfortable abandoning 40% of my available ammunition.

Since the operation of plusing up the gun is conducted during a lull in the action I am not going to get overly excited about the time benefits of one verses the other. The difference is relatively negligible.

Agree

ETA: I think too much training is based on trying to throw problem solving thought out the window and base everything on muscle memory. I believe that would be a poor training philosophy. Your initial post reads to me in a way to suggest that we must learn one best way and repeat ad nauseum to build muscle memory rather than evaluating the problem and applying the best solution.

A "tac reload" (the gun has not been shot to slide lock) might be performed with or without retention based on the circumstances. Know how to do both and apply the correct solution at the time.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I was writing my response and making breakfast (I work nights) while others were typing so there may well be some overlap.

So, I’ll bite. But first, the way you are describing the techniques you mention leads to one of my biggest pet peeves. I’m fine with a different technique, what makes me tilt my head in wonder is people coming up with new names for things … a pro-active reload? And quite frankly I tend to think principles rather than specific TTPs.

So, while there are variations of how they are done, I believe there are really only three reloads: Administrative, Speed, and Tactical.

A traditional, doctrinal even, tac reload was more than likely geared to single stack pistols like the 1911A1. On the few times I could have asked, I did not ask Cooper about this specifically.

Method … meet the criteria for doing it rather than going to a speed reload; reach for & acquire full magazine; bring it up to magazine well; depress mag release & remove used magazine; insert & seat full magazine; put used magazine where you choose to (empty pouch, pocket, waist band); re-establish grip.

Tac reload alternative (different method rather than different name) … Again meet the criteria for doing it rather than a speed reload; remove used magazine & secure it (pouch or waist band – mag pouch is out because it is still full. This gets us into the area some complain about which is never practicing the reload from the pocket you put the used magazine in); acquire full magazine and insert/seat it; re-establish grip. Works better for those with smaller hands &/or double stack magazines. Works pretty decently for left handers reloading ARs/M16FOW.

Or, one can do a speed reload, that just happens to be the in-battery version. Drawbacks are quite possibly not being able to recover, retrieve the magazine – Bad if you have a reduced capacity pistol and that’s your only spare, or environmental conditions are such you can’t / won’t reach down to get it.

Now, your speed reload and pro-active reload … Your pro-active reload is the original speed reload taught at Gunsite (acquire the new magazine first to make sure there is one). The speed reload you described is what many now teach it as.

The principle at play here for whatever variant of the tac reload seems to be … I’ve been shooting, I want a full gun (versus I’ve been shooting & I need a full gun). Oh, and I need the magazine in the gun and whatever ammunition is left in it.

Want versus need? I’m not in the open without cover, I don’t need to engage anyone at this moment.

Is this method as necessary with current double stack pistols? No, but it is still viable for most – except those with smaller hands. I have smaller hands but can do it with most guns.

DB and I have discussed this at length. Once one walked out the gate at API, those who advocated for this were serious west coast coppers who had been involved in multiple OIS and other critical incidents. All three techniques (either tactical reload & speed reload) require some level of dexterity which implies some level of thought and clear headedness.

I note there is now an acknowledgement that this has actually been done albeit without having to begin using the new magazine. My recollection is that was absent in the initial discussion and since it ran counter to my experience annoyed me a wee bit. As I have said before, I ask about successful uses about techniques that frequently taught. Reading Speir’s description of Caputo’s shooting and the discussion is how it just happened. The skill had been drilled enough that is was done without issue. Had the BadGuy’s car come back through, Dean C had a full blaster instead of a half full one. To me that is worth the training time.

Part of my bias may be that the only thing I have ever had to speed reload was a belt fed, crew served weapon.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Duplicate, please delete.

[BehindBlueI's]

Lastly there are no documented cases of a CCH or LEO having ever performed a Tac reload or alternate technique where they needed to or chose to use the partial magazine to complete the defensive action in the shooting/gunfight.

Are there documented cases were small differences in reload speed mattered?
Are there documented cases were an officer were the length of time the gun spent as a "single shot" mattered?

[AMC]

Sigh. I know better...but okay, I'll bite. First off, I have to agree a bit with Mike Pannone. We clutter up technique and ideas a lot with names...especially "tactical". As Mike says....it's a magazine exchange...let's call it that. As Angus has so thoughtfully pointed out, these are principles we're talking about, and everything is situationally dependant. Sometimes the "in battery speed reload" is what's called for, sometimes a magazine exchange makes more sense. How many bad guys are there? What kind of weapon do they have? What type of weapon do I have, and what is my magazine capacity? The real answer is...it depends. I also agree with Ash556 that we should be stressing proactive problem solving over unconscious decisions when it comes to tactical issues...and the decision on how to reload is more a "decision" than a weapon manipulation issue, in this context (not an emergency "holyfuckincrapIneedbulletsnow!!!") I remember a lot of "instructors" at one point in the late 90's poo-poohing the idea of the fast presentation from the holster, shooting on the move, and the "tactical" reload. In my one and only (God willing) shooting, I did all three. Did I need the new magazine, much less the partial one? Nope. But I had a gun with 12 rounds in it instead of 3....which was better.

[Odin Bravo One]

I won't waste anyone's time by banging out a novel length response, but the "tactical reload" has proven the usefulness of the technique on countless occasions. Just because one can't find an example where the documented use is available to the general public doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Go to enough gunfights, eventually you'll find yourself in a position where the "tactical reload" is the appropriate action to take.

[Soggy]

I won't waste anyone's time by banging out a novel length response, but the "tactical reload" has proven the usefulness of the technique on countless occasions. Just because one can't find an example where the documented use is available to the general public doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Go to enough gunfights, eventually you'll find yourself in a position where the "tactical reload" is the appropriate action to take.

Octagon never said don't top off the gun, as has been assumed by most of the commentators unfortunately. The question is: do you retain the empty after the top off. Do you teach multiple ways to reload to new shooters?

A lot of you guys are expert gunfighters, and will have a lot of tools in your toolbox. For the typical the typical ccw'er (like moi) does it make sense to work on multiple ways to top off the gun? One just learn the easiest, fastest way?

There is an opportunity cost. I would be better served practicing to deploy my gun and getting rounds on target than training for low probability situations. If it was my job to get into gunfights vs make hit home from picking up the groceries then that would be different.

Regarding the crew served weapons Angus mentioned - I was prohibited from using them by the Geneva Convention, so I can't comment on that.

[BehindBlueI's]

Octagon never said don't top off the gun, as has been assumed by most of the commentators unfortunately


Neither did Sean M. Which commentator did?


For the typical the typical ccw'er (like moi) does it make sense to work on multiple ways to top off the gun? One just learn the easiest, fastest way?

Reloads are a very low return skill for most carriers, period. That said, you've got to reload the gun anyway when you practice. It doesn't seem like much of an investment to practice tac reloads when the drill doesn't leave you at slide lock and speed reloads from slide lock.

[Soggy]

Neither did Sean M. Which commentator did?



Reloads are a very low return skill for most carriers, period. That said, you've got to reload the gun anyway when you practice. It doesn't seem like much of an investment to practice tac reloads when the drill doesn't leave you at slide lock and speed reloads from slide lock.

In the other thread it was assumed several times. In this thread there have been several comments about "it is better to have the gun topped off".

From Angus: Had the BadGuy’s car come back through, Dean C had a full blaster instead of a half full one. To me that is worth the training time.
From AMC: But I had a gun with 12 rounds in it instead of 3....which was better.

To be honest, I'm not sure what Sean M. was referring to, so apologies to Sean for assuming something instead of asking for clarification.

How many types of 'in battery' reloads do you think should be trained for? If only one, why not the easy one?

[BehindBlueI's]

How many types of 'in battery' reloads should do you think should be trained for? If only one, why not the easy one?

I don't think it matters.

[octagon]

First of all the code names need to go. What does Tactical Reload mean to the uninitiated? Reload with Retention or Reload with out Retention is clearer and gets to the heart of the matter.

Do you feel comfortable dropping unused rounds given the circumstances? What are you carrying? I live in a Hell Hole where the non-LEO is not allowed to have more than 10 rounds in a magazine. I carry a 1911. If I fired 2 or 3 rounds and had one spare magazine of eight rounds I would not feel comfortable abandoning 40% of my available ammunition.

Since the operation of plusing up the gun is conducted during a lull in the action I am not going to get overly excited about the time benefits of one verses the other. The difference is relatively negligible.

The "code names" as you stated, are only the generally accepted terms I found and some specific name is needed for each technique to have a discussion and not confuse techniques that are similar and accomplish the same thing in slightly different ways. A reload with retention means retaining the magazine. A tac reload as described above is a reload with retention and so is removing the magazine and securing it in a posket,then putting in a full magazine then returning to 2 hand grip. One is faster than the other and one requires manipulating two magazines in the same hand. Should they both be taught and practiced? Does a small handed person with double stack magazines have the same ease at performing both?

As far as limited capacity magazines are concerned that is a factor that needs to be considered as the size of the magazine matters when juggling them in one hand and there is a point of diminishing returns. Is it worth the time and effort to train/practice to accomplish a certain technique to retain a magazine with 2 rounds in it? 3? 5? or 1?

The "lull" in the action. The lull is always an unknown amount of time. Is accomplishing the most important part of a task better to be done in the shortest amount of time or a little longer and take more effort/dexterity ? There is the time element and there is the complexity/dexterity element also.

[octagon]

Are there documented cases were small differences in reload speed mattered?
Are there documented cases were an officer were the length of time the gun spent as a "single shot" mattered?

To the first question there are for revolvers but for semi autos as we are discussing I don't know off the top of my head. The second question would also be difficult to determine as it could be construed that the person was out of ammunition if they were killed with a empty gun(i.e. having fired that single shot and been killed. It may be looked at as if the person killed was killed while reloading from slide lock and the slide didn't lock open or they had a malfunction. We know the winners can relay their actions but the losers in shootings/gunfights we are going on the condition of the gun,location of magazine if there are no reliable witnesses or video.

Since it may be difficult to document or have proof of in some circumstances what was attempted it is a concern. Does a technique that allows for a shorter time of reload matter? Should we train and practice such a technique if it only saves a small amount of time? It sure appears from the multitude of posts about a split being .1 faster than a different technique allowed for. Same goes fro draw,regular reloads(whatever they are) and stoppage clearances.

[ST911]

First of all the code names need to go. What does Tactical Reload mean to the uninitiated?

And even to the trained and initiated "combat", "speed", and "tactical" may have wildly different meanings and associated procedures. (See also: ready position labels.)

[octagon]

I won't waste anyone's time by banging out a novel length response, but the "tactical reload" has proven the usefulness of the technique on countless occasions. Just because one can't find an example where the documented use is available to the general public doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Go to enough gunfights, eventually you'll find yourself in a position where the "tactical reload" is the appropriate action to take.

Has the Tac reload been a more useful technique than the faster,easier,less dexterous alternate techniques would have been? That seem to be the question no one is asking or answering. Is there a better technique that novices,LEOs who work for agencies with limited training time and budget,citizens who only get basic training levels as well as the super high speed hard core training junkies?

[octagon]

Wow I never thought by putting a name to associate it with a technique would cause so much angst. If you are bothered by the terms I used or believe they are the same as something else we can use technique 1 technique 2 and technique 3 for the 3 techniques described in the first post. What they are called by whom doesn't matter but having a discussion without first having some agreement what each technique is becomes a effort in futility.

[octagon]

I don't think it matters.

Maybe this is where the disconnect is. If a person has X amount of time to train and X amount of time to practice. Will they get more repetitions in each technique if they are performing 10 different techniques or 5? If one technique is similar to another do they gain any benefit from the similarities between techniques?

Maybe as training junkies or gun as part of a lifestyle people many on this board may have different priorities and have different time,money,effort balances than the average police officer, CCH or home defender.

[okie john]

I won't waste anyone's time by banging out a novel length response, but the "tactical reload" has proven the usefulness of the technique on countless occasions. Just because one can't find an example where the documented use is available to the general public doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Go to enough gunfights, eventually you'll find yourself in a position where the "tactical reload" is the appropriate action to take.

This.

A couple of years ago, I was in the woods with my brother-in-law catching up on some low-light training. It was well after dark with a couple of feet of snow on the ground. Between us we had probably put 100 rounds downrange. During a lull in fire, we heard what I can only describe as a blood-curdling scream come out of the woods in front of us. I didn't know what had screamed or how far away it was, but it sounded close.

I decided that standing there with a G19 and half a mag of FMJ ammo was not ideal. I also decided that while a tactical reload might not improve the situation much, it would improve my feelings about the situation considerably. So I did one. I don't remember what technique I used (and I'm not sure that it matters) but I swapped mags, racked the slide, and told my BIL to do the same with his 6920. One he had topped off, we jumped in the truck and headed back to town.

We figure the scream was probably a mountain lion protecting a kill. I went back to that spot looking for bones after the snow melted but didn't find anything.


Okie John

[BehindBlueI's]

Maybe this is where the disconnect is. If a person has X amount of time to train and X amount of time to practice. Will they get more repetitions in each technique if they are performing 10 different techniques or 5? If one technique is similar to another do they gain any benefit from the similarities between techniques?

Maybe as training junkies or gun as part of a lifestyle people many on this board may have different priorities and have different time,money,effort balances than the average police officer, CCH or home defender.

The context you set:


Also PLEASE don't assume anything specifically that anyone is for or against taking a partially loaded gun and making it a fully loaded gun at a point in a shooting or gunfight. Also my entire reason for discussion is related only to self defense shooting by citizen concealed carry permit holders(CCH) and Law Enforcement officers(LEO).

If you want to train up a new technique just to have it or have a conversation on the theoretical differences among them, knock yourself out. If the goal is in increase the odds of prevailing in a gun fight, I don't think the tiny difference in reload speed matters in the context you've set. I also don't think retained ammo matters in any but the most extreme of outliers in the context you've set. I could rattle on about why they don't matter, but that's not the topic at hand or of particular interest.

[nwhpfan]

I do what I've always heard referred to as a "relaod with retention."

I would be interested if a lefty can do a "tac reload" or any "reload with retention" any other way with an AR.

I think "reload with retention" is faster, easier, and gets you back to %100 quicker. Bonus since I'm left handed so I use the same idea with a rifle or pistol.

Sorry if I've misunderstood the purpose of the thread. Others can do whatever they want...they are all better than running out of ammo or shooting yourself in the foot.

This is where I first heard of the technique. Start at 2:04 if it doesn't automatically.


https://youtu.be/pKNSH9tuxY8?t=2m4s

[octagon]

The context you set:



If you want to train up a new technique just to have it or have a conversation on the theoretical differences among them, knock yourself out. If the goal is in increase the odds of prevailing in a gun fight, I don't think the tiny difference in reload speed matters in the context you've set. I also don't think retained ammo matters in any but the most extreme of outliers in the context you've set. I could rattle on about why they don't matter, but that's not the topic at hand or of particular interest.

I'm not sure I understand all your points. Can you clarify?

One point is whether or not the idea of faster or better way is theoretical? Is the Speed reload or Proactive reload faster or slower in actual use? If one is faster than another then it isn't theoretical anymore. Now whether or not it makes a difference in any specific situation is another matter.

Whether a technique in reloading is faster or slower than another technique may or may not make a difference but regardless if it does or not would a simpler technique to accomplish the same task be better? We all have a finite amount of training time. My premise is that having less techniques to learn and practice to a unconscious competent level is smarter.

No man is an island so looking for more input on a techniques pros and cons in application is needed for ferreting out ideas. Everyone in the end will make their own choice but healthy discussion helps bring to light possibilities and probabilities the original author/designer or follower may not have thought of. Am I wrong here?

[Soggy]

Still getting the sense that people are not understanding what you proposed Octogon.

Maybe the title of the thread is causing it? Can mods change thread titles?

Also, maybe they could put your premise up at the top of your original post and bold it:

"My premise is that the Tac reload as has been taught,practiced and suggested/recommended is not the best technique for use in topping of a partially loaded gun during a shooting/gunfight and should be replaced by the Proactive reload."

Right now the premise is buried at the bottom. Perhaps reword as:

My premise is that the Tac reload with magazine retention is not the best technique for topping off a partially loaded gun during a shooting/gunfight and should be replaced by a simpler reloading technique that does not retain the original, partially depleted, magazine.

The passage Blues pointed to was also a bit confusing.

[BehindBlueI's]

. Now whether or not it makes a difference in any specific situation is another matter.


Which is where my concern lies. And it doesn't. I can always drop the partial mag if something changes and I need to get both hands on the gun. The infinitesimal amount of time that the gun spends as a "single shot" is irrelevant. OTOH, retaining partials is also not relevant for for the vast vast vast majority of .le or ccw shootings, either. The exception would be something like disaster relief were lost mags are just that, lost, and resupply may be an issue. If I was concerned with, say looters in a flood zone or a lengthy violent riot that interrupted supply chains, THEN I'd be real concerned about retaining partials. As is, I see zero reason to train to dump partials by default as I don't see whatever gain as being relevant to gun fights. I just don't see it as mattering.



My premise is that the Tac reload with magazine retention is not the best technique for topping off a partially loaded gun during a shooting/gunfight and should be replaced by a simpler reloading technique that does not retain the original, partially depleted, magazine.


Seriously, I get what's under discussion. I think everyone else does as well.

[Soggy]

Which is where my concern lies. And it doesn't. I can always drop the partial mag if something changes and I need to get both hands on the gun. The infinitesimal amount of time that the gun spends as a "single shot" is irrelevant. OTOH, retaining partials is also not relevant for for the vast vast vast majority of .le or ccw shootings, either. The exception would be something like disaster relief were lost mags are just that, lost, and resupply may be an issue. If I was concerned with, say looters in a flood zone or a lengthy violent riot that interrupted supply chains, THEN I'd be real concerned about retaining partials. As is, I see zero reason to train to dump partials by default as I don't see whatever gain as being relevant to gun fights. I just don't see it as mattering.



Seriously, I get what's under discussion. I think everyone else does as well.

I'm sure you do, but I've seen a couple more "it is better to have a full gun" type comments, so I'm not sure about everyone else. And the other comments have completely ignored the overarching question, which is: It is a good idea to teach people to top off the gun - But what is the best method to teach them?".

As a noob, I think I was better served by learning the easier method to execute, and it is a disservice to teach people a more complicated method that has no benefit in likely encounters.

[busdriver]

I'm a super gamer fag, that said this seems like a conversation in search of a problem.

Are you safely behind cover with a lull in the action? Keep that partial if you like, method is irrelevant as you have time.

If no to the first question, you should be shooting / getting your ass to cover and if you need to reload do it as fast as you can so dump that mag.

Am I missing something? Other than carry more mags if you're worried about running out of ammo.

[Soggy]

I'm a super gamer fag, that said this seems like a conversation in search of a problem.

Are you safely behind cover with a lull in the action? Keep that partial if you like, method is irrelevant as you have time.

If no to the first question, you should be shooting / getting your ass to cover and if you need to reload do it as fast as you can so dump that mag.

Am I missing something? Other than carry more mags if you're worried about running out of ammo.

You are an accomplished shooter who has mastered the finer points of the craft, so you have options.

Picture a dozen random folks that don't know how to operate a gun, who don't know when they should and should not be shooting people, or know how to shoot bad guys successfully without getting shot, shooting themselves, or shooting some innocent bystander. Assuming they do shoot someone (or even draw a weapon), they now have to navigate the legal system without winding up in the slammer or spending their retirement account on legal fees. You have 8-16 hours at best to teach them what they need to know. Would you spend time on teaching multiple ways of topping off the gun in the middle of a gun fight?

[Zincwarrior]

What the heck is this thread about? Just change the mag and call the PoPo before someone else does.

[AMC]

If you don't feel you have enough training time to "master" the magazine exchange, don't do it. If you think that in 8-16 hours students are going to become proficient at anything much beyond even administrative loading...I disagree. I would NOT bother trying to get such folks to do a 'tac reload'. But in the context of the 'student of the gun', especially professional users, it has a place. An admittedly small place, but it's there nonetheless. If you don't think so...then don't do it. Prioritize your training as you see fit for your situation. Nobody else cares, really. Several folks who have actually been involved in gunfights have chimed in and said, "Yeah, it could be useful". If your experience says otherwise, okay. Just load the damn gun.

[Robinson]

I've started practicing administrative reloads more recently because while I think ever needing to do one is unlikely, I can imagine scenarios in which it might be a good idea if given the opportunity.

What I do know is they should be practiced deliberately such that after the reload is performed you are confident the magazine is seated properly in the gun. I had an occasion recently during a pistol class in which I caused a malfunction when the top round failed to feed on my second shot after an administrative reload because I hadn't seated the magazine firmly enough. It was during a shoot/no-shoot drill requiring movement. I recovered and got the gun back in action but it was a definite learning experience.

[ST911]

Part of the problem is the way many are teaching the "tactical reload." Instead of a principles-based approach, many instructors will specify processes for students to struggle through and ultimately fail to retain. Thinking back to assortment of schools I've been to...

Wait for lull in the gunfight or until you're behind cover. That's not a lull, that's a pause.
Dump the partial. Keep the partial. Pick it up if you can. You'll never be able to recover it.
Put the partial back in the mag pouch. Same direction as the other rounds. No, opposite direction so you know which mag is a partial.
Never put a partial back in your pouch. Put it in a pocket. No, not that pocket the other one.
Hold the mag between your first and second finger. No, your second and third. No, in the palm.
You'll never know how many rounds you fired. You'll know if your mag has about a quarter/third/half. It doesn't matter at all, tac reload even after a few rounds.
If you don't do it my/this way, you'll get killed.

I prefer a "replace the partial mag with a full one, do something with the other, and be as consistent as possible" approach.

[octagon]

Which is where my concern lies. And it doesn't. I can always drop the partial mag if something changes and I need to get both hands on the gun.

However this doesn't happen in many situations. People tend to hang onto whatever they are holding when they have an immediate need to shoot. Case in point of recent memory caught on video is the Michigan LEO shooting where the officer held onto the TASER while shooting. There are several others and force on force incidents(i.e. not truly life threatening) where people held onto an item they could have easily dropped for a 2 hand grip but didn't.

The infinitesimal amount of time that the gun spends as a "single shot" is irrelevant. OTOH, retaining partials is also not relevant for for the vast vast vast majority of .le or ccw shootings, either.

If the speed is close enough to the same regardless of technique and the relevance of retaining the partial mag is also why not teach,train,practice a technique that is easier and works for all shooters regardless of handsize or magazine size?

The exception would be something like disaster relief were lost mags are just that, lost, and resupply may be an issue. If I was concerned with, say looters in a flood zone or a lengthy violent riot that interrupted supply chains, THEN I'd be real concerned about retaining partials. As is, I see zero reason to train to dump partials by default as I don't see whatever gain as being relevant to gun fights. I just don't see it as mattering.

Do you think a person in a flood/disaster relief would retain an empty magazine done at slide lock in the same circumstances? I think they would but then they have lost the equipment just the same.

[octagon]

I'm a super gamer fag, that said this seems like a conversation in search of a problem.

Are you safely behind cover with a lull in the action? Keep that partial if you like, method is irrelevant as you have time.

If no to the first question, you should be shooting / getting your ass to cover and if you need to reload do it as fast as you can so dump that mag.

Am I missing something? Other than carry more mags if you're worried about running out of ammo.

How much time is a lull? If you are behind cover cover doing the reload/top off of choice is your attention diverted even a little and where is the badguy(s) during the lull? These are all unknowns. If it takes say 1 second longer to do one reload vs another and takes more mental/physical dexterity to accomplish does this offer an opportunity for the badguy to move out of sight or gain distance toward a person during the lull?

[octagon]

If you don't feel you have enough training time to "master" the magazine exchange, don't do it. If you think that in 8-16 hours students are going to become proficient at anything much beyond even administrative loading...I disagree. I would NOT bother trying to get such folks to do a 'tac reload'. But in the context of the 'student of the gun', especially professional users, it has a place. An admittedly small place, but it's there nonetheless. If you don't think so...then don't do it. Prioritize your training as you see fit for your situation. Nobody else cares, really. Several folks who have actually been involved in gunfights have chimed in and said, "Yeah, it could be useful". If your experience says otherwise, okay. Just load the damn gun.

To your point. If say there were 100 people that were involved in gunfights that performed a Tac reload and said it could be useful but another faster and easier technique would be just as useful would we consider the alternate technique? Are we blinded by the gunfight experience of some to follow and do the exact technique they use successfully because it worked for them or do we consider the general idea of what they did (topping off the gun) since each gunfight is unique?

[BehindBlueI's]

However this doesn't happen in many situations. People tend to hang onto whatever they are holding when they have an immediate need to shoot. Case in point of recent memory caught on video is the Michigan LEO shooting where the officer held onto the TASER while shooting. There are several others and force on force incidents(i.e. not truly life threatening) where people held onto an item they could have easily dropped for a 2 hand grip but didn't.

Separate training issue. Early in the academy we used blocks of wood to simulate magazines, ticket books, etc. and had to drop them. Now, with Tasers being a thing, we train to drop them as well if the situation calls for it.

In my class for civilians, I use a pizza box. It doesn't take a ton of reps to ingrain dropping what you are carrying to get a gun in your hand(s). Prior to training, yes, you see people holding on to it (or more commonly throwing it, wasting time vs just dropping it) but once they have it pointed out to them, not a big deal.

As for the rest, I'd just be re-hashing what I've already said.

[Clobbersaurus]

I have nothing else to add to this other than Ernest Langdon teaches a better method to do tac reloads. Nothing earth shattering, but it's one of those small little nuggets you get from his classes that make them so worthwhile.

[JHC]

Wow I never thought by putting a name to associate it with a technique would cause so much angst. If you are bothered by the terms I used or believe they are the same as something else we can use technique 1 technique 2 and technique 3 for the 3 techniques described in the first post. What they are called by whom doesn't matter but having a discussion without first having some agreement what each technique is becomes a effort in futility.

Since you are introducing an option which is #3 - called Proactive, I think the label is as good as any and helpful for organizing our discussion. We are higher primates after all with advanced language skills. ;)

[JHC]

That said, it does seem as someone mentioned in page 1 that the Proactive is essentially the speed/emergency from in battery.

[octagon]

That said, it does seem as someone mentioned in page 1 that the Proactive is essentially the speed/emergency from in battery.

Yes basically. The only difference between reload #2 and reload #3 is that the magazine is reached for,secured and moved toward the gun prior to dropping the partial magazine. This is done to ensure there is a full magazine available and reduces the amount of time the gun is a single shot weapon. Obvious the times here are fairly small but there is a difference that can easily be demonstrated even if it is small. I plan to try each technique with a timer to see how much difference there is for me between techniques. I would invite others to do the same but I think I pissed in enough people's cereal already if the comments are any indication.

[AMC]

There is not as much disagreement as you seem to believe, here. Do some people spend too much time practicing low probability skills like tactical reloads? Probably. Are there many cases where you are better served just dumping the partial and doing an in battery speed load? Undoubtedly. I get the idea of having limited training time with unmotivated students. Believe me. I've heard of LE instructors locally advocating what you are suggesting. But do I believe we should just jettison the technique? Nope. Not for me. I'll keep it in my bag o' tricks. Realistically I practice it maybe twice a year, and that seems to be sufficient.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In my class for civilians, I use a pizza box. It doesn't take a ton of reps to ingrain dropping what you are carrying to get a gun in your hand(s). Prior to training, yes, you see people holding on to it (or more commonly throwing it, wasting time vs just dropping it) but once they have it pointed out to them, not a big deal.



Funny - at an old NTI, we had to go to a building with a pizza to meet friends. When you got to the entrance, you see blood and have to go save your friends. There was a debate about should you go in - call the law. However, you had to. Surprisingly, the staff said most folks took the pizza. I got some praise for actually dropping the pizza. Ha. I've mentioned this before.

In an IDPA match, we had a brief case full of 'diamonds' that we were transporting. You were supposed to carry it through the stage. I ditched it and got the penalty. Later, we had it handcuffed to us - a total pain - physically as well as gun manipulation.

[Clobbersaurus]

Do some people spend too much time practicing low probability skills like tactical reloads? Probably. Are there many cases where you are better served just dumping the partial and doing an in battery speed load? Undoubtedly.

I'm going to submit that if you are doing regular live fire and working primarily structured drills, you are likely needing to complete numerous tactical reloads every range session.

I know I do a bunch of tactical reloads each time I am at the range, not because I feel the need to practice them, but because I need to top off the gun for the next iteration of whatever drill I am working on. I can't invision a need to practice it otherwise because I do so many of them just to efficiently manage the ammo requirements of the drills I am doing.

[taadski]

Yes basically. The only difference between reload #2 and reload #3 is that the magazine is reached for,secured and moved toward the gun prior to dropping the partial magazine. This is done to ensure there is a full magazine available and reduces the amount of time the gun is a single shot weapon. Obvious the times here are fairly small but there is a difference that can easily be demonstrated even if it is small. I plan to try each technique with a timer to see how much difference there is for me between techniques. I would invite others to do the same but I think I pissed in enough people's cereal already if the comments are any indication.


I don’t know if you pissed in anyone’s cheerios. Hair splitting has always been a customary part of what makes PF PF. Split away… ;) Whether or not it's a valuable use of time/brainpower is another matter entirely though. :p

IMO, the difference between a speed reload and your #3 load seems small enough that I’m not sure it deserves a different name. And yeah, I get that your pistol might be a single shot for a skosh less time, but I still don’t think the distinction is worth the squeeze.

Re pure time of the technique, part of what makes a speed reload efficient is that multiple things are occurring at once; you’re gaining the new mag with your support hand at the same you’re pressing the mag release and allowing the old mag to fall free from the pistol. In your suggested technique (#3), these things will be occurring separately and there will be an associated overall time penalty for that, all else being equal.

Regarding the topic of whether any of the above should serve to do away with reload-with-retention/tac loading skills, I’d agree with others and say NOT.

[octagon]

There is not as much disagreement as you seem to believe, here. Do some people spend too much time practicing low probability skills like tactical reloads? Probably. Are there many cases where you are better served just dumping the partial and doing an in battery speed load? Undoubtedly. I get the idea of having limited training time with unmotivated students. Believe me. I've heard of LE instructors locally advocating what you are suggesting. But do I believe we should just jettison the technique? Nope. Not for me. I'll keep it in my bag o' tricks. Realistically I practice it maybe twice a year, and that seems to be sufficient.

You basically hit on my experience. I have trained a few citizen friends over the years but 17 years worth of training LEOs the understanding of lack of motivation and limited time and ammo or budgets compared to the real risk has always had me thinking of how to get the most out of what we had while considering the end user. The serious shooters who practiced and put in effort didn't need much help but the large majority put in less effort and time and yet needed the skills and training/practice as much or more than the serious shooters. There was also the obvious diversity in size. Trying to get everyone to perform a skill that seemed easy for large handed shooters or shooters who put in a little effort on their own seemed counter productive. Simplifying the technique worked better and if it didn't sacrifice something critical in the simplification it made sense to incorporate it widely. We didn't prevent or discourage those who were capable of doing the more complex thing just encouraged achieving the basics if you weren't going to be as serious about it as the serious shooters. If that makes sense.

[octagon]

I don’t know if you pissed in anyone’s cheerios. Hair splitting has always been a customary part of what makes PF PF. Split away… ;) Whether or not it's a valuable use of time/brainpower is another matter entirely though. :p

IMO, the difference between a speed reload and your #3 load seems small enough that I’m not sure it deserves a different name. And yeah, I get that your pistol might be a single shot for a skosh less time, but I still don’t think the distinction is worth the squeeze.

Re pure time of the technique, part of what makes a speed reload efficient is that multiple things are occurring at once; you’re gaining the new mag with your support hand at the same you’re pressing the mag release and allowing the old mag to fall free from the pistol. In your suggested technique (#3), these things will be occurring separately and there will be an associated overall time penalty for that, all else being equal.

Regarding the topic of whether any of the above should serve to do away with reload-with-retention/tac loading skills, I’d agree with others and say NOT.

Thanks for the supportive first lines. The web makes determining how irritated a poster is from their post pretty challenging.

I 100% agree that the time differences between any of the techniques or the fastest to the slowest is always going to be small. Time alone probably wouldn't justify the discussion in the first place. I know I wouldn't have started or kept the topic going if that was the only factor. The other issues may seem to be nuance but I think they have as much or more importance in thinking about the various reloads.

Robustness seems minor but for someone like me who doesn't always carry a spare mag or who switched between uniform carry of 2 spare mags and off duty/plain clothes carry of 1 spare mag or none sometimes the step of grasping the full spare mag before ejecting the partial could be an important difference between reload #2 and reload #3 techniques.

Dexterity being another point. I have smallish hands and trained with plenty of people who even with larger hands struggled to do the 1 handed magazine juggle from reload #1 technique and this was not under any or much stress at all. Maybe it gets overlooked by a person using a single stack or who has average to larger hands. Reloads #2 and #3 don't have this issue so they can work for large and small hand people just as easily.

Maybe this would be the same as robustness but reloads #2 and #3 are very similar to an administrative or slide lock reload(or whatever they are called ) as they use the same grasp and index on the magazine,angles and insertion force. They just eliminate the slide racking or dropping with slide release lever or other method. Reload#1 is the only skill that has 2 magazines in one hand and moving their position laterally and vertically under the gun. I look at it as the same benefit as using a retention shooting position the same as the number 2 part of the draw stroke.

These issues may be small differences like speed but somewhere all together there may be enough difference to consider.

[JHC]

IMO, the difference between a speed reload and your #3 load seems small enough that I’m not sure it deserves a different name. And yeah, I get that your pistol might be a single shot for a skosh less time, but I still don’t think the distinction is worth the squeeze.

Re pure time of the technique, part of what makes a speed reload efficient is that multiple things are occurring at once; you’re gaining the new mag with your support hand at the same you’re pressing the mag release and allowing the old mag to fall free from the pistol. In your suggested technique (#3), these things will be occurring separately and there will be an associated overall time penalty for that, all else being equal.

Regarding the topic of whether any of the above should serve to do away with reload-with-retention/tac loading skills, I’d agree with others and say NOT.

Man, just say it. P R O A C T I V E. ;)

But good explanation. You're right. And as others have said here, make the tac reload the student's standard admin reload during range time and they'll have it down in no time. It's no more complicated than learning their pistol's basic manual of arms.

EDIT: hey, I've only trained a few friends and family members. Octagon may see more struggle with it. I don't know what I don't know. But I think it's worth figuring out how to be comfortable with it.

[Erick Gelhaus]

First off, I have to agree a bit with Mike Pannone. We clutter up technique and ideas a lot with names...especially "tactical". As Mike says....it's a magazine exchange...let's call it that. ... I remember a lot of "instructors" at one point in the late 90's poo-poohing the idea of the fast presentation from the holster, shooting on the move, and the "tactical" reload. In my one and only (God willing) shooting, I did all three. Did I need the new magazine, much less the partial one? Nope. But I had a gun with 12 rounds in it instead of 3....which was better.

I understand where Pannone is coming from (someday I'll get a class from him). I default to terms I've been using for a very long time. Probably my fault.

As for your event, thanks for sharing.

[Redhat]

I would suggest that if speed of completion is the most important factor, the "tactical reload" may not be best option. If I don't feel safe doing so I won't do it. A simple case of risk assessment in my mind.

One could also do a speed reload to top off, dropping the partial mag on the deck, getting the gun back up rapidly and then, if possible, retrieving the mag from the ground to stow it...if Murphy doesn't show up and that mag happens to fall into the weeds, down a drain...etc.

A couple of things I feel strongly about; I prefer my gun stay full and I want to keep all my ammo on me if possible. In any event, thew brain has to stay engaged.

[Redhat]

Deleted - double post

[Lester Polfus]

Funny - at an old NTI, we had to go to a building with a pizza to meet friends. When you got to the entrance, you see blood and have to go save your friends. There was a debate about should you go in - call the law. However, you had to. Surprisingly, the staff said most folks took the pizza. I got some praise for actually dropping the pizza. Ha. I've mentioned this before.

In an IDPA match, we had a brief case full of 'diamonds' that we were transporting. You were supposed to carry it through the stage. I ditched it and got the penalty. Later, we had it handcuffed to us - a total pain - physically as well as gun manipulation.

I had a part time gig as an actual diamond courier. I used to practice dropping the nylon bag o'jewelry as I moved, drew and contemplated shooting.

[JAD]

I'm going to submit that if you are doing regular live fire and working primarily structured drills, you are likely needing to complete numerous tactical reloads every range session.

I know I do a bunch of tactical reloads each time I am at the range, not because I feel the need to practice them, but because I need to top off the gun for the next iteration of whatever drill I am working on. I can't invision a need to practice it otherwise because I do so many of them just to efficiently manage the ammo requirements of the drills I am doing.

That is exactly how I practice all reloads. Which produces a comparably slow but adequate to likelihood reload time. I have bigger issues.

[That Guy]

I would be interested if a lefty can do a "tac reload" or any "reload with retention" any other way with an AR.


WARNING: I am a complete n00b with the AR. So I may not know what the hell I'm talking about and my technique may have... issues.

That said, the way I'd tac reload an AR is:

Bring new magazine to right side of the gun. Right index finger is between the new mag and the gun, thumb is on the mag release.

Press mag release, pull out the old mag. Along the way I remove my index finger from its previous position, so I'm just holding the two magazines in the same hand.

Push the new mag in.

Put the old mag away.

(I had my girlfriend take some photos. If necessary, I can post a couple later when I'm at a real computer.)

Like I said, there could be issues with this technique I haven't ran into yet. With my small hands, it's not as simple as holding onto one magazine at the time. But, that's the way I'd do it.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Erick Gelhaus]

And as others have said here, make the tac reload the student's standard admin reload during range time and they'll have it down in no time. It's no more complicated than learning their pistol's basic manual of arms.


That has been our experience. We've trained them, they do it.

[Dagga Boy]

That has been our experience. We've trained them, they do it.

Ditto, and then weirdly they stopped going to slide lock in shootings and officers were coming back in with a fully loaded pistol and a partial in the back pocket. Strange how that outdated old stuff can actually work like that.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Ditto, and then weirdly they stopped going to slide lock in shootings and officers were coming back in with a fully loaded pistol and a partial in the back pocket. Strange how that outdated old stuff can actually work like that.

Your old ways and truths are so....inconvenient!

[41magfan]

We were doing tactical reloading 35 years ago with revolvers as part of our regular in-service training program so I've never personally viewed the practice as neither old or new. I'm of the opinion that any serious practitioner should know how and when to put it to good use, regardless of the firearm he might to be using.

[Wayne Dobbs]

We were doing tactical reloading 35 years ago with revolvers as part of our regular in-service training program so I've never personally viewed the practice as neither old or new. I'm of the opinion that any serious practitioner should know how and when to put it to good use, regardless of the firearm he might to be using.

I recall teaching that to our coppers back then also!

[KevH]

I gave my personal experience with what you're referring to as a "Tac Reload" (partial mag placed in back pocket) in the original thread in the LE section.

I have been trained to do a Tac Reload, placing the mag in my back pocket, since around 1999/2000 and have probably done it in every PD training since then and in 99% of the classes I've attended.

Under stress, in the real world, in the dark, with scary things happening around me, I executed it perfectly without even consciously realizing I was doing it. The copper standing right next to me who had less than four years on as a cop did the exact same thing. That is what training, practice, and pure repetition does.

Neither of us lost a damn thing by doing it and in my case I had three extra rounds of 9mm +P and he had five extra rounds of 40 S&W in his back pocket. Those are more rounds on our person that we had in case we needed it later. I don't like the concept of teaching guys to drop partially loaded mags on the ground. There may be a time and place where that is necessary, but why give up ammo when you don't have to? Teach them to keep it and have them practice it every time they're at the range and it will become second nature.

[Pistol Pete 10]

I have done the tac reload in IDPA, on the clock, later I've reloaded with the mag that only had 3 or 4 rounds left in it. Not a good habit for a civilian to get into. We didn't do it in the army, I don't know who came up with it but it could get you killed in real life.

[LSP552]

I have done the tac reload in IDPA, on the clock, later I've reloaded with the mag that only had 3 or 4 rounds left in it. Not a good habit for a civilian to get into. We didn't do it in the army, I don't know who came up with it but it could get you killed in real life.

That's why most places teach you to not put the used mag back in the pouch, just stash it in your pocket or shove in your belt.

[Soggy]

That has been our experience. We've trained them, they do it.


Ditto, and then weirdly they stopped going to slide lock in shootings and officers were coming back in with a fully loaded pistol and a partial in the back pocket. Strange how that outdated old stuff can actually work like that.


I gave my personal experience with what you're referring to as a "Tac Reload" (partial mag placed in back pocket) in the original thread in the LE section.

I have been trained to do a Tac Reload, placing the mag in my back pocket, since around 1999/2000 and have probably done it in every PD training since then and in 99% of the classes I've attended.

Under stress, in the real world, in the dark, with scary things happening around me, I executed it perfectly without even consciously realizing I was doing it. The copper standing right next to me who had less than four years on as a cop did the exact same thing. That is what training, practice, and pure repetition does.

Neither of us lost a damn thing by doing it and in my case I had three extra rounds of 9mm +P and he had five extra rounds of 40 S&W in his back pocket. Those are more rounds on our person that we had in case we needed it later. I don't like the concept of teaching guys to drop partially loaded mags on the ground. There may be a time and place where that is necessary, but why give up ammo when you don't have to? Teach them to keep it and have them practice it every time they're at the range and it will become second nature.

Thank you for sharing your experiences on tac reloads. If I am reading you correctly a lot of people have been taught how to do it successfully, but as far as you know no one has needed to do it.

As seen in that LEO video, even experienced, highly competent professionals can have an issue with it.

Given the above, I am more comfortable than ever just sticking with what I learned at Rangemaster a couple of months ago, and letting the 1st mag drop free when the 2nd magazine is ready to go in the gun and top it off.

[Redhat]

WARNING: I am a complete n00b with the AR. So I may not know what the hell I'm talking about and my technique may have... issues.

That said, the way I'd tac reload an AR is:

Bring new magazine to right side of the gun. Right index finger is between the new mag and the gun, thumb is on the mag release.

Press mag release, pull out the old mag. Along the way I remove my index finger from its previous position, so I'm just holding the two magazines in the same hand.

Push the new mag in.

Put the old mag away.

(I had my girlfriend take some photos. If necessary, I can post a couple later when I'm at a real computer.)

Like I said, there could be issues with this technique I haven't ran into yet. With my small hands, it's not as simple as holding onto one magazine at the time. But, that's the way I'd do it.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

With your AR, you might try the "L" type also.

[scjbash]

I have done the tac reload in IDPA, on the clock, later I've reloaded with the mag that only had 3 or 4 rounds left in it. Not a good habit for a civilian to get into. We didn't do it in the army, I don't know who came up with it but it could get you killed in real life.

How many civilians are carrying more than one reload? For a civilian I get shoving a mag into a pocket if it's easier, but the vast majority of us are only going to have that partial left so it's not going to get us killed in da streetz if it's put in the pouch.


Edited to add: If you only have one reload, is putting a partial into a pocket a mistake? If I run the gun to slidelock at that point I think I want the reload to be where it always is, not in my pocket.

[KevH]

Thank you for sharing your experiences on tac reloads. If I am reading you correctly a lot of people have been taught how to do it successfully, but as far as you know no one has needed to do it.



I think you said something similar in the other post as well. As I mentioned in that post, I'm sure at some point someone has (probably several have), but I'm can't think of examples off the top of my head. That doesn't mean there aren't any. There are several examples I can give of cops running out or very low on ammo in a firefight, including in my own department. This is why I say dumping live rounds is a bad idea if you don't have to.

This is a fairly recent highly publicized incident:

https://americanhandgunner.com/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/

There was a very senior sergeant at my own department when I started who carried four Glock mags on a his belt. I always thought it looked odd until someone one day told me why. You guessed it...he had run out of ammo in a gunfight once.

Most police departments are very hush-hush about OIS's and data is often not shared. There are dozens of OIS's here in the SF Bay Area within 30 min drive of me every year. I only know the facts on a handful of them. Agencies releasing body cam footage is a very recent thing. Just because there aren't a half dozen citable examples of cops using partial magazines from their back pockets doesn't mean that it isn't something that has ever happened and is not a justification for dumping live ammo.

[Pistol Pete 10]

To be honest I never even carry a reload, I was trying to point out that you could go into a situation with a partially loaded mag thinking you had a full load in the gun as I did in the match.
Tac reload is a gaming tactic as far as I'm concerned altho it is a plus to top a gun off saving the partially loaded mag may cause a problem.

[Soggy]

I think you said something similar in the other post as well. As I mentioned in that post, I'm sure at some point someone has (probably several have), but I'm can't think of examples off the top of my head. That doesn't mean there aren't any. There are several examples I can give of cops running out or very low on ammo in a firefight, including in my own department. This is why I say dumping live rounds is a bad idea if you don't have to.

This is a fairly recent highly publicized incident:

https://americanhandgunner.com/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/

There was a very senior sergeant at my own department when I started who carried four Glock mags on a his belt. I always thought it looked odd until someone one day told me why. You guessed it...he had run out of ammo in a gunfight once.

Most police departments are very hush-hush about OIS's and data is often not shared. There are dozens of OIS's here in the SF Bay Area within 30 min drive of me every year. I only know the facts on a handful of them. Agencies releasing body cam footage is a very recent thing. Just because there aren't a half dozen citable examples of cops using partial magazines from their back pockets doesn't mean that it isn't something that has ever happened and is not a justification for dumping live ammo.

Maybe everyone should be carrying 4 magazines just in case?

Yes, theoretically the rounds from the partially spent magazine could be needed again, but given DB's experience (and your experience) it sounds like the typically situation is that you don't even need the rounds from the new magazine, let alone the partial. That is a ton of relevant info given how many professional shooters you guys know and have trained.

In the event you do shoot rounds from the second magazine, you would presumably do a second tac reload. Where do you put that 2nd magazine? Next to the first one? Do you train to fit two magazines there? After you use the third magazine - do you shoot to slide lock, or try and remember which of the 3 magazines you have on you has the most rounds, and do a tac reload if it is #1 or #2? Do you train for that situation?

[KevH]

In uniform...

When I carry a single stack gun like a 1911 or P220, I carry four extra mags in a quad mag pouch at the 11:30 position (I'm right handed).

When I carry a double-stack magazine gun like a Glock I carry two spare mags in the same position.

In plain-clothes...

I carry two spare single stack mags or one spare double stack mag at the 9 o'clock.

We practice "shoot until you're dry" where you have to reload with the mag from the back pocket you did a tac reload with every single range training.

Statistically, most officer involved shootings are over in less than a mag...true. Statistically most are also within seven yards or less and occur in low light.

I say most. There are A LOT that require multiple magazines and a decent amount that occur at distances in excess of 25 yards, 50 yards, and I can think of at least three where the officer engaged with a pistol at over 100 yards.

This means you practice and prepare for the worst case scenario because you could easily find yourself to be that outlier. It means you should practice keeping as many rounds on your person as you can and practice shooting at distance and in low light.

If I seem passionate about the subject it is because I am. I don't want to see someone get killed or injured because they dispensed with a valuable practice.

[Soggy]

In uniform...

When I carry a single stack gun like a 1911 or P220, I carry four extra mags in a quad mag pouch at the 11:30 position (I'm right handed).

When I carry a double-stack magazine gun like a Glock I carry two spare mags in the same position.

In plain-clothes...

I carry two spare single stack mags or one spare double stack mag at the 9 o'clock.

We practice "shoot until you're dry" where you have to reload with the mag from the back pocket you did a tac reload with every single range training.

Statistically, most officer involved shootings are over in less than a mag...true. Statistically most are also within seven yards or less and occur in low light.

I say most. There are A LOT that require multiple magazines and a decent amount that occur at distances in excess of 25 yards, 50 yards, and I can think of at least three where the officer engaged with a pistol at over 100 yards.

This means you practice and prepare for the worst case scenario because you could easily find yourself to be that outlier. It means you should practice keeping as many rounds on your person as you can and practice shooting at distance and in low light.

If I seem passionate about the subject it is because I am. I don't want to see someone get killed or injured because they dispensed with a valuable practice.

That sounds outstanding. Thank you for sharing. I admire your professionalism - I really mean that.

If I had your job I hope I would do the same. As a civilian - again, playing the odds - I still think I want to keep it simple. I don't want to have to think about what technique to use in the heat of the moment. For the foreseeable future I really just want to work on getting my gun out and getting shots on target, and then reload as reliably as possible. I am heading out the door to work on that right now. Maybe once I can do "the test" cold and keep everything in the black consistently, I will work on what you describe.

If you'll indulge me I'd like to restate the crux of my concern, and why I've been a bit of a pain in the ass on this: Most folks will not even get training. If they do, they won't practice. People also don't work out and drink to much. That is how they are. Given the fallen nature of man, (and the odds), which of different ways to top off a gun do you think makes the most sense for most people* to learn?

(*not LEO)

[That Guy]

With your AR, you might try the "L" type also.

That sounds like quite a reach for my support hand thumb? (Remember, I was talking about left-handed tac reload. The same hand that holds the magazine has to activate the magazine release.)

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Soggy]

I wandered over to https://pistol-training.com/ when I got home tonight to see what Todd had to say on the topic. The last article posted is germane to this discussion. While he doesn't call out which method to use specifically, the picture accompanying the article is interesting.

[falnovice]

I favor dropping to a squat and essentially performing a speed reload. Squat/knee, grab fresh mag while dropping old one, slam new one home. Reacquire grip and scan....recover old mag if possible and stow in pocket. If you bring the pistol in for the reload the partial mag will wind up at your feet.

Honestly I don't train "tactical" reloads hardly at all these days.....I don't think they are very useful to me in the civilian context.

In civilian defensive shootings, which is to say not military nor LEO, I struggle to find cases that required 10 or more rounds. Despite the media, television, Hollywood, and even our own training perpetuating high round count shootings, it appears to be something that doesn't really happen that often. At least on the defensive end of the shooting.

Also, and I do not intend this to be mean or targeted to any individual on this thread, it has been my observation that many if not most people focus on "tactical gun skillz" when they would benefit tremendously by directing their energy in a different direction.....like perhaps a morning run. Or some hand to hand training. In a violent encounter as a civilian you are, in my opinion, far more likely to need either sprinting ability, empty hand abilities, and/or the cardio stamina for them both rather than a reload of any kind.

Can anyone name 10 defensive shootings in the last 10 years that required 10 or more rounds from the defender?

How about 10 defensive shootings in the last 10 years that involved grappling/HTH?

I can come up with the latter almost immediately on youtube.

Civilian shootings, even LEO shootings (with some notable exceptions), have much lower round counts than people tend to think.

Regards,

Fal

[octagon]

As the OP I accept that the various topping off reloads or even reloads in general are less common techniques needed in many gunfights. I also understand there are plenty of other skills that are more critical to a shooting/gunfight or self defense and being well rounded. However I don't see addressing the more minor issues while working on all skills being something to avoid or just cursory gloss over. Hell if that was the case there wouldn't be a thread more than twice as long as this one on "Punisher" logo on guns. There we have something that has and always will have zero effect on the outcome of surviving the gunfight/shooting itself( not the legal aftermath) and has zero ability to improve or have negative effect on,situation awareness,draw,shooting,reloads, use of cover or any other pre or during part of any shooting or gunfight. If we would have just glossed over that topic the first poster could have just said "it doesn't do anything positive and could be a negative in opinions of prosecutors or jury members so don't do it" and left it at that. More was learned by further posts.

[BehindBlueI's]

To be honest I never even carry a reload, I was trying to point out that you could go into a situation with a partially loaded mag thinking you had a full load in the gun as I did in the match.
Tac reload is a gaming tactic as far as I'm concerned altho it is a plus to top a gun off saving the partially loaded mag may cause a problem.

That's an extrapolation from games to the real world that doesn't hold up.

For those wondering if it's every come up, I know of one incident that did involve the use of the retained partial mag*. I would also say it didn't actually matter in the outcome.

I've seen this focus on reloads come and go. I don't like where it's gotten us in terms of gear choice. Open top magazine carriers and the widely spaced 3 or 4 magazine carriers are becoming more and more common on LEO's belts, because faster reloads and more ammo. That's great...until you need to retain your gear. We had some guys learn that the hard way doing crowd control during the Super Bowl. The crowd became unruly, but not truly violent, and guys in the crowd started having gear plucked off their belts.

*as in the rounds were later fired, not just topping off after, which is done pretty routinely.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

Edited to add: If you only have one reload, is putting a partial into a pocket a mistake? If I run the gun to slidelock at that point I think I want the reload to be where it always is, not in my pocket.

Pocket is fine. I usually find it easier to slip it into my back pocket than clear a cover garment to slip it back into the pouch, especially in positional shooting. It also directly translates to rifle mags and shotgun cards so I'm doing the same thing with all three in my limited range time.

[Coyotesfan97]

I'm carrying a 1911 right now. I have three magazines on my belt and two in my vest. Our SOP for 1911s is four+ magazines not counting the one in your pistol. I've been doing tac reloads since I transitioned from my Model 66 to a SIG 220. My partially full magazine gets shoved into my belt behind my magazine carrier. I've been doing this 28 years. I practice tac reloads before shift when I put my duty belt on. Needless to say it's pretty ingrained.

We had i service training several years ago where the FI, who I respect tremendously, recommended speed reloads. I decided to stay with what's already programmed.

[Coyote41]

The “time to train” argument this ASP youtube guy throws out doesn’t hold water to me.

Our group runs a hot range when we shoot. As such, the gun is always put it the condition we want it in for the next scenario, so practicing the tactical reload happens a lot, just by virtue of the philosophy of our group.

On which one to use, I like the traditional. I do not condone dropping a loaded magazine (I won’t say ever, but pretty close to it). I want all my ammo to come with me if I have to move. For those with small hands, a reload with retention where only one magazine is handled at one time is an option, too.

We ran a drill once to try and screw people up during tactical reloads. As it turns out, if you’re good with these, the time with which your pistol is without a magazine is incredibly low.

[Soggy]

Why is a picture of a slide lock reload interesting?

I think you might be trying to read too much into an almost decade old picture of a reload that Todd used (because it's a cool photo) in a short blog post saying "reloads are statistically unlikely in a gun fight but you're going to have to put more bullets into your gun when you practice, so you might as well do it correctly and strive to get better at doing so".

Fair point on the picture - I couldn't tell that was a slide lock and shouldn't have mentioned it.

The "Do it correctly" is the crux of it. What is the correct way?


I've now read every word of every post in this thread (yay me), and while some (perhaps most) people might think I missed the point of the thread, I completely stand behind what I said.

I'll also add that the time I spent writing those posts, and reading this thread, would probably have been better spent practicing reloads. :)

Well, I thought the premise was "Reload method X is an objectively better way to teach and practice reloads than Reload method Y".

The correct answer is "Just go practice and don't talk about it"? Practice the less efficient more difficult to accomplish way of doing it? That has never, as far as the collective wisdom of this board is concerned, mattered?

[Soggy]

I'm carrying a 1911 right now. I have three magazines on my belt and two in my vest. Our SOP for 1911s is four+ magazines not counting the one in your pistol. I've been doing tac reloads since I transitioned from my Model 66 to a SIG 220. My partially full magazine gets shoved into my belt behind my magazine carrier. I've been doing this 28 years. I practice tac reloads before shift when I put my duty belt on. Needless to say it's pretty ingrained.

We had i service training several years ago where the FI, who I respect tremendously, recommended speed reloads. I decided to stay with what's already programmed.

That makes perfect sense for your situation. What would you advise a new LEO or CCW? (Could be two different answers)

[Soggy]

I think you said something similar in the other post as well. As I mentioned in that post, I'm sure at some point someone has (probably several have), but I'm can't think of examples off the top of my head. That doesn't mean there aren't any. There are several examples I can give of cops running out or very low on ammo in a firefight, including in my own department. This is why I say dumping live rounds is a bad idea if you don't have to.

This is a fairly recent highly publicized incident:

https://americanhandgunner.com/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/



Thank you for sharing the link. This is an example of an extreme situation, and the officer fired 33 times. If someone carries a glock 17 that equals the magazine in his gun, and one reload. He'd still have an extra mag at the end of it if he was carrying two spares. No tac reload necessary. Even better would be carrying 3 spares. He could get into a second gunfight just like the first, and still wouldn't need a tac reload.

Perhaps more importantly: The officer shot at his adversary 33 times. About half the shots missed entirely. Only 2 actually hit the vital zones. It wasn't until he was almost out of ammo that he decided to look at the front site, slow down, and make sure he got good hits. Maybe he should have spent more time training on getting good hits?

[JustOneGun]

How many civilians are carrying more than one reload? For a civilian I get shoving a mag into a pocket if it's easier, but the vast majority of us are only going to have that partial left so it's not going to get us killed in da streetz if it's put in the pouch.


Edited to add: If you only have one reload, is putting a partial into a pocket a mistake? If I run the gun to slidelock at that point I think I want the reload to be where it always is, not in my pocket.


Absolutely a good way of doing it if you only carry one reload.

[Jim Watson]

As a mere competitive shooter, I cannot speak to combat tactics, but I have certainly seen the results of focus and practice on a technique.

Early days of IDPA, the Tactical Reload was emphasized and the Reload with (Magazine) Retention was deprecated. If a Tac Load was specified, the RWR was not allowed. So I practiced the Tac Load, both in a hurry for the match timer and as an administrative reload when practicing something else.

Then the RWR was legitimized by making it equal to the Tac Load as a "Chamber Loaded Reload". I thought about the RWR as less fumble prone and therefore preferable in most cases. But did I practice it enough to drive the Tac Load out of my reflexes? Nope. Even though the Tac Load was no longer required, I still defaulted to the moves I worked to learn. Now the Chamber Loaded Reload is no longer required in any situation, but it is convenient in some Courses of Fire. So I still do a Tac Load.

Now, what about actually USING the ammo you saved with some form of CLR?
Under IDPA rules, it takes a really contrived CoF to push you into digging that partial magazine out of pocket, pouch or waistband. I have had to do it at major matches only twice in 20 years and very seldom in local matches striving for novel challenges.
So what about case studies of actual gunfights? Is there a recorded account of somebody stowing a partial magazine and having to go back to it under fire?

[Soggy]

As a mere competitive shooter, I cannot speak to combat tactics, but I have certainly seen the results of focus and practice on a technique.

Early days of IDPA, the Tactical Reload was emphasized and the Reload with (Magazine) Retention was deprecated. If a Tac Load was specified, the RWR was not allowed. So I practiced the Tac Load, both in a hurry for the match timer and as an administrative reload when practicing something else.

Then the RWR was legitimized by making it equal to the Tac Load as a "Chamber Loaded Reload". I thought about the RWR as less fumble prone and therefore preferable in most cases. But did I practice it enough to drive the Tac Load out of my reflexes? Nope. Even though the Tac Load was no longer required, I still defaulted to the moves I worked to learn. Now the Chamber Loaded Reload is no longer required in any situation, but it is convenient in some Courses of Fire. So I still do a Tac Load.

Now, what about actually USING the ammo you saved with some form of CLR?
Under IDPA rules, it takes a really contrived CoF to push you into digging that partial magazine out of pocket, pouch or waistband. I have had to do it at major matches only twice in 20 years and very seldom in local matches striving for novel challenges.
So what about case studies of actual gunfights? Is there a recorded account of somebody stowing a partial magazine and having to go back to it under fire?

I think your definition of "tac reload" is the opposite of what the thread defines it as (see first post). But that is very interesting about 'training scars' if you will.

Regarding anyone ever needing the partially spent mag: BBI knows about one case where it was used, but had no impact. So no fights decided with the more complicated, slower, technique.

[Jim Watson]

I think your definition of "tac reload" is the opposite of what the thread defines it as (see first post). But that is very interesting about 'training scars' if you will.

.

No.
The original IDPA mandated Tactical Reload was as described in post #1.

[Soggy]

No.
The original IDPA mandated Tactical Reload was as described in post #1.

Sorry about that. What is a Reload with (Magazine) Retention then?

[octagon]

Sorry about that. What is a Reload with (Magazine) Retention then?

Remove magazine and secure same on body or in magazine pouch
Grasp full magazine and insert it in gun.

[Soggy]

Remove magazine and secure same on body or in magazine pouch
Grasp full magazine and insert it in gun.

Thank you.

[Jim Watson]

Sorry about that. What is a Reload with (Magazine) Retention then?

1. Shift support hand to below gun.
2. Eject partial magazine into support hand.
3. Stow partial magazine in mag pouch, pants or vest pocket (but not breast pocket) or waistband.
4. Draw full magazine and reload.
5. Regain shooting grip with support hand
6. Shoot.

It is less fumble prone than the book Tac Load because you only have one magazine in hand at a time. It leaves the gun unloaded somewhat longer than a PERFECT Tac Load, which was why early IDPA tacticians disapproved of it.

The first major match I ran into a mandatory Tac Load, I blew it completely and actually put the partial magazine back in the gun. The SO just went kind of googly-eyed and did not penalize me. But I felt embarrassed and practiced a lot.

I even worked on a real Tac Load for the revolver. The IDPA rule book of the day just sloughed it off with "Eject the contents of the cylinder and dump the whole mess in a pocket, then reload." But I wanted to be able to get the live rounds back and worked on methods to keep loaded and empty .38s separate.

[Soggy]

1. Shift support hand to below gun.
2. Eject partial magazine into support hand.
3. Stow partial magazine in mag pouch, pants or vest pocket (but not breast pocket) or waistband.
4. Draw full magazine and reload.
5. Regain shooting grip with support hand
6. Shoot.

It is less fumble prone than the book Tac Load because you only have one magazine in hand at a time. It leaves the gun unloaded somewhat longer than a PERFECT Tac Load, which was why early IDPA tacticians disapproved of it.

The first major match I ran into a mandatory Tac Load, I blew it completely and actually put the partial magazine back in the gun. The SO just went kind of googly-eyed and did not penalize me. But I felt embarrassed and practiced a lot.

I even worked on a real Tac Load for the revolver. The IDPA rule book of the day just sloughed it off with "Eject the contents of the cylinder and dump the whole mess in a pocket, then reload." But I wanted to be able to get the live rounds back and worked on methods to keep loaded and empty .38s separate.

Thank you for explaining that. I hope we can all agree that the RWR will get you killed in the streets, and the Tac load is better than that.

Your experience performing the Tac load incorrectly under pressure, even after practice, is very interesting. That is a another data point that tells me that just letting the mag hit the floor is a better bet*.

(*for me - others can and will draw different conclusions)

[jetfire]

Thank you for explaining that. I hope we can all agree that the RWR will get you killed in the streets, and the Tac load is better than that.

Your experience performing the Tac load incorrectly under pressure, even after practice, is very interesting. That is a another data point that tells me that just letting the mag hit the floor is a better bet*.

(*for me - others can and will draw different conclusions)

On the timer, an IDPA style Reload with Retention (eject/catch partial mag, stow, grab full mag, insert) is usually faster than the traditional Tactical Reload, where you bring the full magazine up to the gun and make the exchange there. I've done both types of reload in competition and real world environments, and generally speaking am of the opinion that if I have the time to fiddle fart around with partial magazines, I have the time to pick a partial up off the ground.

[Dagga Boy]

Thank you for explaining that. I hope we can all agree that the RWR will get you killed in the streets, and the Tac load is better than that.

Your experience performing the Tac load incorrectly under pressure, even after practice, is very interesting. That is a another data point that tells me that just letting the mag hit the floor is a better bet*.

(*for me - others can and will draw different conclusions)


Want to know why many of the fairly experienced folks on this kind of stuff have given up posting anything worthwhile.....this is why.

How IDPA does whatever they call a "Tac Reload" is one of those things that is not relevant to what it is for as a field technique, and by nature a Tac reload should not be done "on the clock". They took one of the most non-gamer elements of combative pistol gun handling and made it into something it is not. One of the first things you need to do to make the Tac Load (whichever technique is used, I am fairly agnostic as far as this goes) remotely relevant is run a hot range where guns are all loaded, carried loaded, and the people participating are responsible for their own ammo management. Doesn't sound remotely like IDPA or other sporting venues, or many LE programs.

Also, for those confusing Administrative loads and the Tac Load......you are not just doing it different, it is wrong. Purely Administrative loading and unloading are an entirely separate operation with their own procedures and have no place in any discussion with operational field use.

I gave up on all the "I ll pick it up later" techniques once I started seeing actual magazines and discarded and dropped things at crime scenes and what post shooting scans and environments often look like. I a, glad those advocating this have had so many positive experiences with the scenes and locations they are basing what they are teaching on where magazines are in pristine useable condition, actually still present, and right where the shooter thought they should be.

[Soggy]

Want to know why many of the fairly experienced folks on this kind of stuff have given up posting anything worthwhile.....this is why.

How IDPA does whatever they call a "Tac Reload" is one of those things that is not relevant to what it is for as a field technique, and by nature a Tac reload should not be done "on the clock". They took one of the most non-gamer elements of combative pistol gun handling and made it into something it is not. One of the first things you need to do to make the Tac Load (whichever technique is used, I am fairly agnostic as far as this goes) remotely relevant is run a hot range where guns are all loaded, carried loaded, and the people participating are responsible for their own ammo management. Doesn't sound remotely like IDPA or other sporting venues, or many LE programs.

Also, for those confusing Administrative loads and the Tac Load......you are not just doing it different, it is wrong. Purely Administrative loading and unloading are an entirely separate operation with their own procedures and have no place in any discussion with operational field use.

I gave up on all the "I ll pick it up later" techniques once I started seeing actual magazines and discarded and dropped things at crime scenes and what post shooting scans and environments often look like. I a, glad those advocating this have had so many positive experiences with the scenes and locations they are basing what they are teaching on where magazines are in pristine useable condition, actually still present, and right where the shooter thought they should be.

DB - I don't think I ever brought the gaming stuff into this thread. Other folks brought that info in, and if I misunderstood any of it I apologized.

I tried to keep the discussion on real world examples of why it was necessary to learn the tac reload. I mostly heard "you can learn it if you want to, and you should want to if you are serious". Never (not once!) has anyone presented an example of why I should learn it (or why it should be taught).

I don't care about picking up a spent mag later and leaving a nice neat crime scene. Why would I care about that? Not following. I just want to reload my gun at the right time the fastest, most reliable way I can. For me, that is what Tom Givens taught me a couple of months ago. It wasn't the Tac Reload.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

...One of the first things you need to do to make the Tac Load (whichever technique is used, I am fairly agnostic as far as this goes) remotely relevant is run a hot range where guns are all loaded, carried loaded, and the people participating are responsible for their own ammo management. Doesn't sound remotely like IDPA or other sporting venues, or many LE programs...

A local instructor does this for his classes and also runs the firearms training for a few smaller departments. I'd personally been questioning my preference for tactical reloads with a retained mag until one of his shotgun classes. I'd rather not be bending over on a hot line and cramming my Mossberg's muzzle into the dirt to chase a partial mag when the command to fire another string could come at any second. Would also rather be paying attention to the targets, other students, and scanning than play Where's Waldo? with a little black stick. Had no problem with two mags in my hand at a time and shoving the partial in my back pocket.

I'm also not a fan of removing and stowing the partial before drawing a full mag. Prefer knowing I have a second magazine that hasn't been lost before unloading my gun. I didn't pay attention to the other students' preferred technique but did notice they weren't dropping partials.

Come to think of it, I managed my shotgun cards differently and never thought of it until typing this post. I was removing partials for full ones as I got the chance and was tearing and shoving in a pocket before grabbing a fresh one. They are such a different beast that it would be a tangly mess to try having two in hand at once. Might spend some dryfire making sure I check for the replacement before peeling the partial, however.

[JohnO]

I'd rather not be bending over on a hot line and cramming my Mossberg's muzzle into the dirt to chase a partial mag when the command to fire another string could come at any second.

A competent instructor will tell the line when it is safe to recover equipment. "The line is secure, recover your equipment." Going after gear on the ground when someone is screwing with their weapon is a recipe for disaster.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

...Going after gear on the ground when someone is screwing with their weapon is a recipe for disaster.

That's the point. If no one is going to try it on a supervised line, I'm not going to play peek-a-boo with a magazine while people scream at 911 and sirens are about to fly into an unsecured scene during/after an actual shooting.

As for the instructor, I have zero doubt he would have called a cold range and had words with anyone trying to bend forward in a lull. The other students had taken several of his handgun classes so whatever reload with retention variation they were using came from him. One guy was ribbed about a dropped full magazine that implied a similar thing had been pointed out before.

[octagon]

Since this thread has appeared to devolve into “This one time on the range…” or ”This one time in competition…” story telling I guess I will tell a gunfight story and be done.

An officer I know,trained,trained with and interviewed was working one day when he responded to a shoplifter call. He and an unarmed security officer went to loss prevention,arrested the suspect and after handcuffing him behind his back searched him. They removed both his cowboy boots and afterwards put them on the arrestee. They loaded up in the transport vehicle (a SUV) and headed off to jail about 3-4 miles away. On the way the suspect said “What would you do if I had a gun” The officer, believing he was joking or asking a hypothetical question replied. I would do whatever you wanted I’m not getting killed for some shoplifting arrest” or words to that effect. The suspect said “ turn around” The officer did and saw the suspect had a derringer in his hand pointed at him leaned over still handcuffed. The suspect said to the driver to keep driving and told the officer to keep his hands up or he would kill him. The suspect directed the driver to drive to another jurisdiction “where his boys would be”. The driver continued and they drove into a neighborhood (high crime rate, rough area) The suspect directed the officer to slowly with his right hand (the officer was a lefty) draw his gun holding it with finger and thumb. He said again if the officer tried anything he would kill him. The officer complied. The suspect advised the officer to throw the gun out of the vehicle. The officer said” It is daytime and kids out are I don’t want them finding a gun. Let me kick it under a car” The suspect said ok. The driver slowed and the officer and driver jumped out of the still rolling SUV. The officer fired shots into the rear seat area as he took cover and continued to shoot as the suspect moved out of sight horizontal on the rear seat. The officer fired rounds through the tailgate,through the cage divider between cargo area and back seat and into the backseat. After the first magazine he reached slide lock and went to reload. He opened the snapped closed flat and pulled out the magazine and inserted it into the empty gun. However it wasn’t a full magazine it was his Freeze +P OC spray canister. As he realized what had happened he dropped the OC spray and loaded the fresh second magazine and continued shooting. The suspect was observed moving or parts of him so the officer believed he was still a threat. The officer continued shooting and after reaching slide lock again loaded the last magazine and paused to see if there was any sound or movement from the suspect. Nothing so he radioed the incident location in and waited behind a car for cover for the troops to arrive.

In the end the officer and unarmed security officer made it through without a scratch. The officer fired 31 rounds total. He had a solid group in the tailgate of the SUV and the suspect had 6 gunshot wounds with IIRC 2 through and through. The derringer was a .38 and both primers had been hit but neither fired. The suspect lived,was charged tried and convicted of the new offenses and the shoplifting that started it. The officer received discipline for policy violations I won’t get into. I don’t believe there was any civil suit but I can’t be certain as I interviewed him soon after the incident when a civil suit may not have happened yet. The officer was a veteran officer with at least 7-8 years on, a hunter and shooter who liked guns and shooting and never had any problems in training,drills and qualification. He said to me that he never had any issues with grabbing OC spray instead of a magazine in training including Simunitions scenarios’ His OC pouch was a leather pouch with snap on flap closer positioned right next to his double magazine pouch which also was leather with snap flap closure. He had since moved the OC location behind his radio further away from his mag pouch. I asked if I could share the mistake he made with other firearms instructors and to address the issue of pouch location,position and similarities to help others avoid the same mistake. He had no issue with it and I believe was still surprised that it happened.

What does this story tell us? I guess nothing or something depending on how each person looks at it and if they want to learn from other people’s mistakes or chalk it up to Train more,what a dummy,I would never do such a thing etc….. I leave it to each individual/expert.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

In case any of that was aimed at me, I was just saying that a class set me in my ways and erased some recent doubt. If you want more than a class, a Border Patrol firearms instructor told me that he noted baseplates sometimes shifting forward when dropping partials from the P2000. The plate would have to be reset in postiion or the mag wouldn't seat. I carry a USP compact which shares mags with the P2000 so that further keeps me from dropping my partial mags.

[Jim Watson]

After the first magazine he reached slide lock and went to reload. He opened the snapped closed flat and pulled out the magazine and inserted it into the empty gun. However it wasn’t a full magazine it was his Freeze +P OC spray

This possibility makes me wonder about those combo pouches with a magazine and a flashlight, phone, etc.

Back before ubiquitous cell phones, there were pagers not much different in size and shape to a magazine. I would not have carried one close to my ammo.

[Dagga Boy]

DB - I don't think I ever brought the gaming stuff into this thread. Other folks brought that info in, and if I misunderstood any of it I apologized.

I tried to keep the discussion on real world examples of why it was necessary to learn the tac reload. I mostly heard "you can learn it if you want to, and you should want to if you are serious". Never (not once!) has anyone presented an example of why I should learn it (or why it should be taught).

I don't care about picking up a spent mag later and leaving a nice neat crime scene. Why would I care about that? Not following. I just want to reload my gun at the right time the fastest, most reliable way I can. For me, that is what Tom Givens taught me a couple of months ago. It wasn't the Tac Reload.

What disturbed my force is discussions of "killed on the street" when it seems like you are new to most of this, combined with "Tom said". I consider Tom a friend and mentor. We don't agree on everything. Let me lay this out as basically as I can and then be done with it here, because I would rather dedicate an article to the subject.

Reloads. You have several types. From teaching perspective, the most critical to have students competent in first is Administrative loading and unloading. A purely Administrative procedure that should be treated with a high level of seriousness and often isn't. Failures in Administrwtive loading and unloading are commonly the cause of disasters and tragedies.

On the combatives side, it simple. You need techniques for loading when you have to load, need to load and want to load. Commonly, the out of battery speed re load is the solution for "have to load". The In battery speed reload for "need to load", and then a tactical load for when you want to load (of which there are several ways to accomplish and I find them mostly to be a hand size and dexterity dependent for best fit. I am agnostic on "the best way"). Why would we want to load? Often it is to prepare for a new fight. This means a fully loaded weapon that you know the status of. It is a good situation to maintain, especially if we are still in a potentially hostile environment. Remember, this reload is about control and preparation for another encounter. We are also maintaining control of one of the most critical components required to keep a semi automatic firearm functioning.

Do we teach the Tac Load in basic one day classes.? No. We also don't work at 25 yards. Because "want to load" is the least important of the loads, should we simply not have a "want to load" technique, because Tom says or it is too complicated (the truth of which Tom may have a different priority of importance based simply on different experiences). We spend a lot of time with "want to load" in a majority of our classes because we run a hot range and we have students responsible for their own Ammo management. They learn quickly that always starting at full capacity is a benefit to not getting to "have to load" at a bad time (is there ever a good time?). Again, want to completely do away with a "I want to reset for a new fight" in your training regime....awesome. Hope that works out. Carry a high capacity gun, so you don't need the ammo.....great, but I find very few folks who ALWAYS have a service pistol on them. Never ever carry a Glock 43, or Shield, good for you. None of your students or those who you teach ever carry a small single stack auto....how lucky. Never had a magazine pop a round or become inoperable when dropped on concrete or asphalt.....you need to get out more. If you only get into gunfights in places where you will never need to maybe save your critical piece of equipment that is required for semi auto function, don't worry about "want to load" and retention of magazines. I have seen some pretty crazy stuff that is not like what anyone thinks their fight is going to be. There are things I have found I want to maintain control of if I can, which include ammo and magazines if I can. If the situation does not dictate that, than one of the other types of reloads is a better fit.
Some folks can simply not handle this stuff due to lack of exposure or lack of bodily control. I know for a fact it can be trained fairly easily. If people don't want to work at that level, that is an adult choice. I prefer to work at a higher level of dedication and training, and train people who want to have a higher level of training (or are professionally mandated to). The addition and mastery of a single technique that allows me to reload when I want to is well worth it to me, and has proven to be a good thing for my students. For those contending that nobody has ever used the remaining ammo or magazines, I would contend that we also have cases of folks who have run completely out of ammunition and would have likely loved to have had some ammunition or partially loaded magazines available rather than none.

[Soggy]

What disturbed my force is discussions of "killed on the street" when it seems like you are new to most of this, combined with "Tom said". I consider Tom a friend and mentor. We don't agree on everything. Let me lay this out as basically as I can and then be done with it here, because I would rather dedicate an article to the subject.


DB: Thank you for your thoughtful reply, I really appreciate. I will read it a couple of times and ponder it.

I am definitely at "the beginner level", you are correct there. I was in the military a long time ago and have had guns and a carry permit for just as long, but eventually figured out that didn't mean anything. I wanted to get past beginner so started training, and found my way here.

I apologize to Tom for dragging his name into this. I was trying to get the point across that not everyone who advocates dumping the mag (EDIT to add: during a want to load situation) is beyond the pale. I think some of the initial comments directed towards Octagon when he raised the topic in the LEO shooting thread were in that vain, and it stifled debate. Still, probably could have handled it better.

The "killed on the streetz" comment I made was an ill timed joke. For that I apologize also.

Best Regards,

Soggy

EDIT TO ADD:

Re-reading it: I think you are misrepresenting what I was arguing. I was taught a "want to load" technique. I learned it, and I practice it. It is just a simple one.

[Soggy]

... want to completely do away with a "I want to reset for a new fight" in your training regime....awesome. Hope that works out. .

DB - instead of re-editing my post again, I would like to point out that I have never, ever, said that. I've been asking the best way to do just that this entire thread, and the other one.

You quoted me saying this:"I just want to reload my gun at the right time the fastest, most reliable way I can." That is what I was referring to.

[KevH]

What disturbed my force is discussions of "killed on the street" when it seems like you are new to most of this, combined with "Tom said". I consider Tom a friend and mentor. We don't agree on everything...

...For those contending that nobody has ever used the remaining ammo or magazines, I would contend that we also have cases of folks who have run completely out of ammunition and would have likely loved to have had some ammunition or partially loaded magazines available rather than none.

Totally!

I respect Tom, but his opinion is exactly that...an opinion. To be clear, I disagree with his opinion on this particular matter and I would venture to guess that if you surveyed most LE instructors they would too.

I watched the bearded guy in the video (John Correia) on the first page. Looking at his resume and his video it becomes apparent he is not LE and he is parroting things he's heard in classes, on the internet, and from wherever else. While well meaning, my opinion is that he is dead wrong when it comes to the importance of retaining extra ammo in a gunfight. Having been a participant in a couple myself and having been present during several more, and having been a detective that sits across from guys that have just shot people I will say this...no one wants to have less ammo on their person if they can help it. This goes for LE, citizens, and criminals.

Reading through this thread makes me want to bang my head against a wall, but I keep coming back to it because I am a CA POST firearms instructor and I spend a fair amount of time already having to de-bunk BS that academy recruits and young cops see on YouTube videos. I would hate for some baby-police to come across this thread (or the bearded guy's videos) and then believe that retaining ammo is not important.

I hope the importance of retaining ammo is clear as mud to most people here. If someone for some odd inexplicable reason wants to practice dumping live rounds on the deck instead of holding on to them for future use...go ahead and knock yourself out. But it is the opinion of this guy that keeping them, when it costs you nearly nothing in time if trained properly, is the best habit and the one that should be taught and reinforced.

[Tom Givens]

KevH and Darryl- I think what is missing here is context.

The Tactical Reload was originally called the “military reload”. In the military, one might be engaged for days, not seconds. Magazines had to be retained for recharging during lulls. In police work, the need to pursue criminals and apprehend them creates the occaisional running gun battle, with high round counts. When looking at this from a military or police viewpoint, the Tactical Reload makes more sense.

For the private citizen CCW I think the need is probably non-existent, especially if you carry two spare magazines, which I do. I frequently watch students who have trained with other programs try to do Tac Loads in class, and once we stress them out a bit the reloads become a mess. This is especially true with fat double column magazines like most of us have now.

Task fixation is a real problem, and I believe the Tac Load ties up too many mental resources for what you get in return, in the civilian context. I’d rather see the training time devoted to other skills. In a civilian self defense shooting, if the decision to reload is made, I’d rather see the gun reloaded quickly and hands back on it as soon as possible, rather than fiddling with a partial magazine. Again, though, this is in relation to private citizens in US civil self defense, not a SWAT guy or soldier.

[Soggy]

But it is the opinion of this guy that keeping them, when it costs you nearly nothing in time if trained properly, is the best habit and the one that should be taught and reinforced.

Really wish I hadn't brought Tom Givens into this. Please forgive me Tom!

Thank you for at least understanding that we are talking about different ways to top off the gun in a "want to load situation". I think many posters have made assumptions about what it is we are discussing, and it has been a giant cluster. If only we had some decent Mods around here.

Also, thank you for admitting the tac reload does come at a cost, even if it is "nearly nothing". Also, as seen in the LEO video, there are documented cases where there was sub-optimal execution.

There are no (zero) documented cases of the tac load mattering. There are wants, and there are needs. I'm going to maximize my needs, which is a full gun quickly with two hands on it ready to shoot again.

I'm going to go work on getting good hits some more.

EDIT to add: thanks Tom, was typing before I saw your post or I would have kept my mouth shut.

[Dagga Boy]

DB - instead of re-editing my post again, I would like to point out that I have never, ever, said that. I've been asking the best way to do just that this entire thread, and the other one.

You quoted me saying this:"I just want to reload my gun at the right time the fastest, most reliable way I can." That is what I was referring to.

Here is the problem. Which reload and why? We have folks spending huge amounts of time on the out of battery speed reload that they basically plan on having. That is super fast and pretty reliable. What is not is when we get people in class who have poorly managed ammo and then get to do it for real, and it is often ugly. In battery reload, great technique and fairly easy, unless you fail to seat that stuffed to the gills magazine that doesn't do real well when not slammed into the gun. The Tac Load...well, you could just drop the magazine every single time on the ground and basically limit yourself. The Tac Load offers benefits when you are not taking in coming, and the only negative if you drop a mag is that you are back to the in-battery speed load. "The right time".....sorry, no magic blue pills on this. You could have near identical scenarios in totally different environments that would change this. Brutal reality is that his is a thinking game. You need to know how to play chess in case your force scenario doesn't turn out to be a checkers match. My thing is be practiced and solid on "have to, need to, and want to" and put some solid thought into the types of scenarios where each of those may need to be applied well before you need to.

[Dagga Boy]

KevH and Darryl- I think what is missing here is context.

The Tactical Reload was originally called the “military reload”. In the military, one might be engaged for days, not seconds. Magazines had to be retained for recharging during lulls. In police work, the need to pursue criminals and apprehend them creates the occaisional running gun battle, with high round counts. When looking at this from a military or police viewpoint, the Tactical Reload makes more sense.

For the private citizen CCW I think the need is probably non-existent, especially if you carry two spare magazines, which I do. I frequently watch students who have trained with other programs try to do Tac Loads in class, and once we stress them out a bit the reloads become a mess. This is especially true with fat double column magazines like most of us have now.

Task fixation is a real problem, and I believe the Tac Load ties up too many mental resources for what you get in return, in the civilian context. IÂ’d rather see the training time devoted to other skills. In a civilian self defense shooting, if the decision to reload is made, IÂ’d rather see the gun reloaded quickly and hands back on it as soon as possible, rather than fiddling with a partial magazine. Again, though, this is in relation to private citizens in US civil self defense, not a SWAT guy or soldier.


Context is huge. Context changes based on scenario. Tom, like me, you can usually be found most of the time with a gun holding more than 15 rounds. I am often only carrying a single spare magazine on my person. Statistics say I will never need it or most of the rounds in my primary carry pistol......yet we still carry them. I disagree with discarding your magazine from your Glock 43 after a ghetto shooting, no matter who you are if you don't have to. In an age where we have savages attacking soft targets, many of hose LE/Military TTP's may be applicable. Same when we see how our fellow "citizens" act after a natural disaster or crisis. I simply do not like discarding a magazine I know for a fact functions and is in good working condition if I don't have to or need to. In your instructor class I pointed out to Lynn a completely FUBAR'd magazine on the deck from another shooter as part of my "why I disagree with Tom on this" (and it isn't as huge a disagreement as it seems to be on the Internet).

Basically, If I have to or need to reload I have a means to do that. If I simply want to, well, we simply disagree as to how we will accomplish that task and what our situation will look like when we are done. I figure we will both have full guns, and one of us will have a functioning back up magazine if we solved the initial problem without having to use much of our primary. I do have a suspicion that if the problem looked complex, you would likely have retained magazines as well....because....treachery.

[lwt16]

This possibility makes me wonder about those combo pouches with a magazine and a flashlight, phone, etc.

Back before ubiquitous cell phones, there were pagers not much different in size and shape to a magazine. I would not have carried one close to my ammo.

I was running the timer for a buddy who is retired LE and a very active and proficient shooter......NRA instructor as well.

He went to reload with a magazine from a "magazine/flashlight" combo and sure enough, grabbed the flashlight instead of the magazine.

He instantly dropped it when it wouldn't fit in his magwell and retrieved the magazine. Cost him a lot of time, naturally. He's the type of shooter that is humble and he was noticeably embarrassed about this snafu.

Regards.

[Dagga Boy]

I was running the timer for a buddy who is retired LE and a very active and proficient shooter......NRA instructor as well.

He went to reload with a magazine from a "magazine/flashlight" combo and sure enough, grabbed the flashlight instead of the magazine.

He instantly dropped it when it wouldn't fit in his magwell and retrieved the magazine. Cost him a lot of time, naturally. He's the type of shooter that is humble and he was noticeably embarrassed about this snafu.

Regards.

I owned my own equipment and LE gunshop for many years. You can try to get folks to do things right, but often gear creativity and convenience wins. I had keepers on both sides of my magazine pouches and my holster to prevent anything from fumbling either. A vast majority did not think things like that were important and often magazine pouches became pager and cell phone holders and mags even being the right direction was a huge challenge.

[Clobbersaurus]

Okay, so I haven't read all of this thread, but I have read most of the comments from the members whose information I value.

I slapped on my competition gear to see what the time difference vs the three reloads were. I used my Elite II and I set par times. For the reload drills I tried to have the mag back in the gun before the second beep.

Best speed reload: 0.9

Best tac reload: 1.4 (I spent only 5 minutes working speed on this by the way. I have never tried to push speed with this reload before, it's was always just an admin operation for me).

Best Proactive reload: N/A ***Note: I actually could not get my body to do this reload. No matter how hard I tried I just could not slow down and ended up stuttering through it. So I gave up and just did speed reloads. After practicing it, I just don't see the advantage over a speed reload. Just my opinion.

With a mag pouch under a polo I would ad at least 0.5 to those times. Maybe once competition season is over I will take a look at it.

Anyway, time difference is not as great as I would have thought.

[LSP552]

I was running the timer for a buddy who is retired LE and a very active and proficient shooter......NRA instructor as well.

He went to reload with a magazine from a "magazine/flashlight" combo and sure enough, grabbed the flashlight instead of the magazine.

He instantly dropped it when it wouldn't fit in his magwell and retrieved the magazine. Cost him a lot of time, naturally. He's the type of shooter that is humble and he was noticeably embarrassed about this snafu.

Regards.

Choosing equipment isn't a trivial thing. Many people don't think things through before they make a selection. I can't count the number of idiots I've seen wear their ASP directly behind their pistol, interfering with their grip. But hey, it's convenient....

[JHC]

Okay, so I haven't read all of this thread, but I have read most of the comments from the members whose information I value.

I slapped on my competition gear to see what the time difference vs the three reloads were. I used my Elite II and I set par times. For the reload drills I tried to have the mag back in the gun before the second beep.

Best speed reload: 0.9

Best tac reload: 1.4 (I spent only 5 minutes working speed on this by the way. I have never tried to push speed with this reload before, it's was always just an admin operation for me).

Best Proactive reload: N/A ***Note: I actually could not get my body to do this reload. No matter how hard I tried I just could not slow down and ended up stuttering through it. So I gave up and just did speed reloads. After practicing it, I just don't see the advantage over a speed reload. Just my opinion.

With a mag pouch under a polo I would ad at least 0.5 to those times. Maybe once competition season is over I will take a look at it.

Anyway, time difference is not as great as I would have thought.

Lol your tac reload is better than my speed reload!

[Clobbersaurus]

Lol your tac reload is better than my speed reload!

LOL, I was gaming tac reloads. :)

[lwt16]

I can't count the number of idiots I've seen wear their ASP directly behind their pistol, interfering with their grip. But hey, it's convenient....

Or mandated by SOP.......

Truthfully, we really have no need for the baton at my agency as any and all strikes or blocks have been de-authorized. At the last inservice, when we were issued the Taser and told that the baton was pretty much a relic of days gone by, many of us took them off our belts because, as you mentioned, it interfered with our grip. Not only that, but the 'new and improved" holders were almost impossible to draw from.

We were quickly told we were "out of policy" and to put them back on.

So don't assume the "idiot" is the end user.

Regards.

[LSP552]

Or mandated by SOP.......

Truthfully, we really have no need for the baton at my agency as any and all strikes or blocks have been de-authorized. At the last inservice, when we were issued the Taser and told that the baton was pretty much a relic of days gone by, many of us took them off our belts because, as you mentioned, it interfered with our grip. Not only that, but the 'new and improved" holders were almost impossible to draw from.

We were quickly told we were "out of policy" and to put them back on.

So don't assume the "idiot" is the end user.

Regards.

For sure! No doubt about idiots writing idiot policy in many agencies. Been there, lived some of that. Thanks for bringing that up!

[Soggy]

Here is the problem. Which reload and why? We have folks spending huge amounts of time on the out of battery speed reload that they basically plan on having. That is super fast and pretty reliable. What is not is when we get people in class who have poorly managed ammo and then get to do it for real, and it is often ugly. In battery reload, great technique and fairly easy, unless you fail to seat that stuffed to the gills magazine that doesn't do real well when not slammed into the gun. The Tac Load...well, you could just drop the magazine every single time on the ground and basically limit yourself. The Tac Load offers benefits when you are not taking in coming, and the only negative if you drop a mag is that you are back to the in-battery speed load. "The right time".....sorry, no magic blue pills on this. You could have near identical scenarios in totally different environments that would change this. Brutal reality is that his is a thinking game. You need to know how to play chess in case your force scenario doesn't turn out to be a checkers match. My thing is be practiced and solid on "have to, need to, and want to" and put some solid thought into the types of scenarios where each of those may need to be applied well before you need to.

I agree deciding when the 'right time' to top off your magazine is not magic and someone could make a poor choice on when to do it (regardless of what technique they plan to use to top off).

Suppose someone guessed wrong or used poor judgment on when to execute. Which type of reload would it be better to be in the middle of when the realization hits that the threat is active again - the simple one or the complicated one?

I also agree it is a thinking game. I have a finite capacity to think. If I use up enough brain power to decide I want to top off my gun I don't want to use extra capacity to A) figure out which type of top off I want to perform or B) do one that is any more complicated or slower than it must be. That is the most critical thing at that moment - getting back on the gun quickly in case I made a poor choice in deciding to top off. The shorter the window, the less risk you made a bad call for the immediate circumstance.

You raise another critical point that hasn't been discussed yet: The ability to seat a full magazine when the gun is in battery. But again - which reload technique gives you a higher chance of success? The simple one where your support hand does't have anything to do except jam the magazine home, or the complicated one where the support hand is trying to hang onto a spent mag of unknown value? What is most important at that moment? Successful reload, or retaining partially empty mag? I would say do everything you can to get a successful reload.

People have raised the point that dropping mags on the deck can damage the mag. I would like to submit that it doesn't matter. You can get another one. The whole point is that broken mag on the deck in all likelihood will not be needed again in the immediate future. Have a plentiful supply of spare mags and a spare gun. Everything used in the shooting is getting confiscated anyway, right? If it is training and your mag gets damaged - who cares? Get some training mags. There is no mag shortage anymore.

As always, thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

[Malamute]

People have raised the point that dropping mags on the deck can damage the mag. I would like to submit that it doesn't matter. You can get another one. The whole point is that broken mag on the deck in all likelihood will not be needed again in the immediate future. Have a plentiful supply of spare mags and a spare gun. Everything used in the shooting is getting confiscated anyway, right? If it is training and your mag gets damaged - who cares? Get some training mags. There is no mag shortage anymore.

.

I may be out of my lane, but I dont think the idea is not to damage the mag so you cant use it in practice next week, but not damage it so it cant be used in the very short interval of time remaining in your life.

[Soggy]

I may be out of my lane, but I dont think the idea is not to damage the mag so you cant use it in practice next week, but not damage it so it cant be used in the very short interval of time remaining in your life.

Fair point! I was going off the assumption you wouldn't ever need that mag, which is how we kind of got in this whole sink whole. I will leave my statement for posterity, but do concede the point. Everyone else: Please don't beat me up for my last paragraph.