Gun Rights - USA friends: Please don't give them an inch - Australia's insane.

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I recall a year or two ago Obama was wanting to introduce some gun laws and was looking to Australia as a prime example of what 'great' firearm laws can accomplish.

The other day a father on their rural farm in Australia confronted an armed intruder with an unloaded .22 rifle. (Didn't point it at the intruder, simply held it as a 'prop'). This caused the intruder to think twice and drop his knife. The end result was the farmer driving the intruder to the police station to hand him in.

A good outcome? Not according to Australian government and police. Their response was first to confiscate all the farmers firearms. Unsure yet of what charges will be laid (against the farmer/victim, not the intruder).

http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/4927063/border-farmer-has-guns-taken-after-confronting-man-armed-with-a-knife-at-his-home/?cs=11

Rather, what the Australian government has been telling, and expects of it's citizens is to comply and give criminals everything they ask for. "Don't resist. Comply with all criminals demands". I've seen this mentioned numerous times by the authorities, on TV, online and in papers.

And that's exactly what many people have been doing. Numerous times criminals have aggressively entered into people's homes, demanded keys to people's cars, phones, and other items - which most citizens now hand over. (And in many cases still get a beating - just for complying).

We have little to no way of defending ourselves. (Firearms can not be used in self defense here. We're not even allowed to have tazers or pepper spray in our own homes to protect our families with, let alone our property). The only 'weapon' we are permitted is a phone to 'call the police' on.

The end result of course is that this has only made criminals more brazen.

I have no doubt this is where America would have started to head if Obama had have gotten his way. Please don't give them an inch my USA friends. It all began in Australia with what seemed like a simple innocent move from the government - and ever since then has just continued to escalate further and further. Their first request will seem innocent and logical - but the end result is insanity leaving it's citizens as defenseless as lambs amongst wolves. Please learn from our mistakes.

[OlongJohnson]

My position on gun control starts with the idea that the physical defense of one's person, loved ones and property against those who would do them harm is a fundamental human right. It is not created, but rather recognized by the United States Constitution. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only country with that fundamental understanding of the dignity, responsibility, and value of human life built into its founding document.

[Willard]

My position on gun control starts with the idea that the physical defense of one's person, loved ones and property against those who would do them harm is a fundamental human right. It is not created, but rather recognized by the United States Constitution. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only country with that fundamental understanding of the dignity, responsibility, and value of human life built into its founding document.

But it is constantly under attack, and a startling number of "our" citizens don't appreciate or want to retain it. We live in interesting times.

[TheNewbie]

I recall a year or two ago Obama was wanting to introduce some gun laws and was looking to Australia as a prime example of what 'great' firearm laws can accomplish.

The other day a father on their rural farm in Australia confronted an armed intruder with an unloaded .22 rifle. (Didn't point it at the intruder, simply held it as a 'prop'). This caused the intruder to think twice and drop his knife. The end result was the farmer driving the intruder to the police station to hand him in.

A good outcome? Not according to Australian government and police. Their response was first to confiscate all the farmers firearms. Unsure yet of what charges will be laid (against the farmer/victim, not the intruder).

http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/4927063/border-farmer-has-guns-taken-after-confronting-man-armed-with-a-knife-at-his-home/?cs=11

Rather, what the Australian government has been telling, and expects of it's citizens is to comply and give criminals everything they ask for. "Don't resist. Comply with all criminals demands". I've seen this mentioned numerous times by the authorities, on TV, online and in papers.

And that's exactly what many people have been doing. Numerous times criminals have aggressively entered into people's homes, demanded keys to people's cars, phones, and other items - which most citizens now hand over. (And in many cases still get a beating - just for complying).

We have little to no way of defending ourselves. (Firearms can not be used in self defense here. We're not even allowed to have tazers or pepper spray in our own homes to protect our families with, let alone our property). The only 'weapon' we are permitted is a phone to 'call the police' on.

The end result of course is that this has only made criminals more brazen.

I have no doubt this is where America would have started to head if Obama had have gotten his way. Please don't give them an inch my USA friends. It all began in Australia with what seemed like a simple innocent move from the government - and ever since then has just continued to escalate further and further. Their first request will seem innocent and logical - but the end result is insanity leaving it's citizens as defenseless as lambs amongst wolves. Please learn from our mistakes.


This is why the Trump election was a victory. Not because he's America savior but because it meant the left loss. Leftism is destroying all wisdom, and when wisdom falls the West falls.

So if you are being attacked can you defend yourself? If I understand it right even cops can't carry off duty.

[Robinson]

I recall a year or two ago Obama was wanting to introduce some gun laws and was looking to Australia as a prime example of what 'great' firearm laws can accomplish.

The other day a father on their rural farm in Australia confronted an armed intruder with an unloaded .22 rifle. (Didn't point it at the intruder, simply held it as a 'prop'). This caused the intruder to think twice and drop his knife. The end result was the farmer driving the intruder to the police station to hand him in.

A good outcome? Not according to Australian government and police. Their response was first to confiscate all the farmers firearms. Unsure yet of what charges will be laid (against the farmer/victim, not the intruder).

http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/4927063/border-farmer-has-guns-taken-after-confronting-man-armed-with-a-knife-at-his-home/?cs=11

Rather, what the Australian government has been telling, and expects of it's citizens is to comply and give criminals everything they ask for. "Don't resist. Comply with all criminals demands". I've seen this mentioned numerous times by the authorities, on TV, online and in papers.

And that's exactly what many people have been doing. Numerous times criminals have aggressively entered into people's homes, demanded keys to people's cars, phones, and other items - which most citizens now hand over. (And in many cases still get a beating - just for complying).

We have little to no way of defending ourselves. (Firearms can not be used in self defense here. We're not even allowed to have tazers or pepper spray in our own homes to protect our families with, let alone our property). The only 'weapon' we are permitted is a phone to 'call the police' on.

The end result of course is that this has only made criminals more brazen.

I have no doubt this is where America would have started to head if Obama had have gotten his way. Please don't give them an inch my USA friends. It all began in Australia with what seemed like a simple innocent move from the government - and ever since then has just continued to escalate further and further. Their first request will seem innocent and logical - but the end result is insanity leaving it's citizens as defenseless as lambs amongst wolves. Please learn from our mistakes.

Thank you for the reminder.

[OlongJohnson]

So if you are being attacked can you defend yourself?

No. The use of a firearm (and most any other weapon, depending on the jurisdiction) to defend against violent assault is forbidden. In their frenzy to legislate violence out of the human condition, the UK and Australia have essentially abolished the concept of self defense in any meaningful legal sense.

[Bigghoss]

People don't want to be responsible for themselves, either for providing or for defending. I get it, nobody wants to shoot anybody and everyone wants to find a scapegoat when their life sucks. I don't like carrying a gun and I dread the thought of capping an asshole but the reality is that you can't have freedom without risk of someone abusing it. So you can either completely and utterly submit to the government or be prepared for the remote possibility that some lazy shithead may try to take what's yours instead of working for his own.

Fuck that. I'll own guns and do my own thing and just accept the risk that comes with it.

[BJXDS]

You don' need a gun, money, or anything else those in power don't think you need. But don't worry they will provide and protect you, after all they know what best for you better than you do, just look at how well it's working for them.

[RoyGBiv]

20065 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_my_cold,_dead_hands)

[Peally]

Since Obama was elected we've become very adept at telling lawmakers to shove it up their ass. So far so good outside of a few traditionally communist shithole states.

[VT1032]

Since Obama was elected we've become very adept at telling lawmakers to shove it up their ass. So far so good outside of a few traditionally communist shithole states.

My observation is that the good states have maintained the status quo or gotten a little better, but the bad states have gotten significantly worse. The anti's are making progress in those places. That's dangerous because those places have legislators and politicians that get elected president and whatnot. They can have influence outside of their shitty spheres of influence.

[OlongJohnson]

Is anyone else worried about Trump's hard left turn over the past week?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One has to worry that changing demographics will erode states that seem good or that a horrible incident will lead to a stampede of new laws that craven politicians will support. It is disappointing that the Supreme Court's supposed conservatives have not supported even looking at the 'bad' state bans. Similarly, the lack of interest in Congress to mitigate state bans is disgusting. The issues that roil the Congress have led to the RKBA being deliberately ignored.

[walker2713]

My position on gun control starts with the idea that the physical defense of one's person, loved ones and property against those who would do them harm is a fundamental human right. It is not created, but rather recognized by the United States Constitution. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only country with that fundamental understanding of the dignity, responsibility, and value of human life built into its founding document.

I agree, and wish to add this: the right of self defense, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, has a source, the Founders did not invent it from whole cloth.

Rather, they proclaimed that God, the Creator of the world "endowed" humanity with their fundamental human rights. That is, these human rights were not property that could be traded, sold or exchanged for something else...we were "endowed" with them....that it, we came equipped with them, they're an essential element of what it means to be a human person.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Declaration of Independence 1776.

I'm not trying to evangelize here, but to point out that the Founders never claimed to invent a right where it had not existed before. They simply acknowledged that the rights to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" were a natural and essential element of what it means to be free men and women in the world.

Sermon over, rant off.

The fangs of Mike the Tiger in my avatar weren't very sharp last night as we were humbled by the Bulldogs of Miss State. Coach O, his staff and the team have a lot of work to do....

[gtae07]

Is anyone else worried about Trump's hard left turn over the past week?

As of yet, no. Right now I'd call it a shrewd political move. But then, I'm also not a hard right conservative (I'm more "small-L" libertarian if anything) and I absolutely detest party politics and "they support it so we must oppose it".

[Robinson]

They simply acknowledged that the rights to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" were a natural and essential element of what it means to be free men and women in the world.


That right there is the part that says it for me.

[Jason M]

My position on gun control starts with the idea that the physical defense of one's person, loved ones and property against those who would do them harm is a fundamental human right. It is not created, but rather recognized by the United States Constitution. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only country with that fundamental understanding of the dignity, responsibility, and value of human life built into its founding document.

And...The Bill of Right specifies, at least in spirit, not what a citizen may do, but what the G may not.

[LittleLebowski]

I recall a year or two ago Obama was wanting to introduce some gun laws and was looking to Australia as a prime example of what 'great' firearm laws can accomplish.

The other day a father on their rural farm in Australia confronted an armed intruder with an unloaded .22 rifle. (Didn't point it at the intruder, simply held it as a 'prop'). This caused the intruder to think twice and drop his knife. The end result was the farmer driving the intruder to the police station to hand him in.

A good outcome? Not according to Australian government and police. Their response was first to confiscate all the farmers firearms. Unsure yet of what charges will be laid (against the farmer/victim, not the intruder).

http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/4927063/border-farmer-has-guns-taken-after-confronting-man-armed-with-a-knife-at-his-home/?cs=11

Rather, what the Australian government has been telling, and expects of it's citizens is to comply and give criminals everything they ask for. "Don't resist. Comply with all criminals demands". I've seen this mentioned numerous times by the authorities, on TV, online and in papers.

And that's exactly what many people have been doing. Numerous times criminals have aggressively entered into people's homes, demanded keys to people's cars, phones, and other items - which most citizens now hand over. (And in many cases still get a beating - just for complying).

We have little to no way of defending ourselves. (Firearms can not be used in self defense here. We're not even allowed to have tazers or pepper spray in our own homes to protect our families with, let alone our property). The only 'weapon' we are permitted is a phone to 'call the police' on.

The end result of course is that this has only made criminals more brazen.

I have no doubt this is where America would have started to head if Obama had have gotten his way. Please don't give them an inch my USA friends. It all began in Australia with what seemed like a simple innocent move from the government - and ever since then has just continued to escalate further and further. Their first request will seem innocent and logical - but the end result is insanity leaving it's citizens as defenseless as lambs amongst wolves. Please learn from our mistakes.

Will trade 20:1 US liberals for 1 good Aussie. I love your country, it is shame what has happened.

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Will trade 20:1 US liberals for 1 good Aussie. I love your country, it is shame what has happened.

I'll take your deal! :-)

I loved my country but I am concerned it's fast becoming what I've disliked about many other countries. I envy Americans with your incredible constitution!

I've actually thought about moving to the USA, although not sure I'd qualify. (Don't have university education, no relatives, etc. Yes - I've actually had a quick look as to what would be involved ;) ). I like the idea of swapping USA liberals to move here for Aussies who love your constitution would work. What about all those celebrities that promised to leave if Trump won? The liberal Australians would be agreeable on that front too I'd reckon - might be one of the few things we could all agree on. ;)

Australia has so much to be proud of, but unfortunately most of it seems to be in it's history now. I'm concerned we're living on borrowed time of the good that those that have gone before us have done.

[Sensei]

Is anyone else worried about Trump's hard left turn over the past week?

When it comes to firearms, no. There is absolutely zero chance that any gun control law will pass in the next 3 years.

Having said that, I'm very worried about what the effect of Trump's presidency will have on the viability of Republicanism and the Conservative movement beyond the next 4 years. All bets are off for what America will look like 10-15 years from now...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In my professional life, I got to talk to Australian academics. For curiousity and not revealing my beliefs, I asked them about gun issues. All the ones I talked to (granted a small sample), thought gun people were 'nutters'. Is that a general view. I also read that the defense against the draconian laws was not based on a RKBA perspective for the most part. It was approached as an Australian needs a 'sport'. Gun usage was a 'sport' but you could get another as having guns was too dangerous and overcame the need for 'sport'. This is an important nuance as protecting the 2nd Amend. or proclaiming one's support for it is done by nuancing for hunters, sportsman and target shooters. This correlated with the politician wandering around with a Tweety Bird killer O/U shotgun and/or shooting down the mighty skeet.

As Joe Scarborough said (ex-conservative who was blinding by the wiles of Mikka) - I don't need a 30 round clip of cop-killer bullets to go hunting with my son.

I think we have a chance to legislate protections of the RKBA for its intended use now but the current set of politicians won't even try. SCOTUS doesn't have the vote to take up a crucial case, and if it did - it probably would lose.

[Peally]

To be fair, you were talking to "academics" and as a general rule they're farther left than the average person.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I know that. It was just info for the conversation. That's why I asked if it was a general view. In the USA - gun ownership for protection is a majority position. I was wondering about Australia.

Even Joe Biden would grab a shotgun (and shoot it in the air or through the front door at the pizza guy).

[45dotACP]

When it comes to firearms, no. There is absolutely zero chance that any gun control law will pass in the next 3 years.

Having said that, I'm very worried about what the effect of Trump's presidency will have on the viability of Republicanism and the Conservative movement beyond the next 4 years. All bets are off for what America will look like 10-15 years from now...Pretty much this.

It'll embolden the liberal hard liners and I doubt Trump will make anything happen for us 2nd amendment wise. Conservative SCOTUS or not.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

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I know that. It was just info for the conversation. That's why I asked if it was a general view. In the USA - gun ownership for protection is a majority position. I was wondering about Australia.

Mate - the father of the family on this farm in the OP has had his firearms confiscated off him within hours, without trial just for holding it (it was unloaded, and it wasn't pointed at the intruder). What they'll charge him with is not yet known. As the farmer has commented since. "What else was I supposed to do - wait for him to have put 4-5 holes in me with his knife before doing anything".

There's basically no such thing as self protection in Australia for the average citizen, let alone with a firearm. That's the job for the police. (That's the attitude) As mentioned previously - the official recommendation of our leaders is to cower to the criminals demands, hope that they won't hurt you and your family, and then call the police when an opportunity presents itself and let them 'investigate'.

Yup, that's right too - in most cases police are too late in arriving to situations like this - they're not there to stop criminals, but simply there to investigate and try and catch the criminals at a later date. (Which the courts then give a small sentence and release again to re-offend). You should see our anti-pursuit policy that the Victorian government brought in a few years ago. Police weren't allowed to pursue if the criminals didn't pull over because someone might get hurt. They've since relaxed this a little because criminals were taking too much advantage of it. (Duh!)

Likewise our government protects pedophiles identiies because the criminals might get hurt. They don't care about parents or children living in an area where a pedophile lives - just that if the pedophiles identity is known as a pedophile, he might not be treated fairly and judged. Our countries policies more concerned about criminals protections than the innocent sickens me to say the least.

Some people state that our laws do allow for self defense under 'reasonable force' - but the above reaction by the police and government is proof that this is lip service only. If you resist criminals - you are the offender in our governments eyes because you're not doing what the government says. (Cower to their demands)

Australia is truly lost to madness in this area. I'm not making any of this up. I post this here to just show how easily it is to fall to this level if you give in as an example, and to encourage my American friends that you're doing the right thing by not giving them an inch. If you need more examples - just continue to look at Australia. There's plenty to go around!

I did have to laugh when Obama used Australia as his prime example. It was the worst thing he could have done for his cause for anyone truly willing to take a look.

[OlongJohnson]

It was always BS, but it was a far better fantasy than the reality has become.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQrLPtr_ikE