Breaking shots at speed

[ER_STL]

Okey-dokey, so in replacement of Gabe’s Pistol Shooting Solutions class that we had to cancel this Fall, I signed up for a local defensive pistol class and enjoyed it quite a bit. It’s very clear to me now that my most immediate problem to be solved is the push on the gun I exert when trying to press the trigger quickly. I can dry-fire all day long and keep the sights relatively aligned while mashing the trigger but when I get to the range and try and make a shot under pressure, I still have the tendency of pushing my shots low. If I slow down I’ll hit where I want to but when I’ve got a timer on me I throw shots. Furthermore, this problem only happens if I’m trying to track my shots through follow-through. If I switch to target focus the problem goes away.

What’s a good way to work through this? Run drills where the objective is to react to a timer and break a shot as quickly as I can? Start slowly and gradually increase my speed? Would love some feedback….

Thanks,
Eric

[Hrhawk]

Have you considered a timing issue? You say it does not happen slow fire and only while tracking the sights. Assuming you mean directly straight down and not low left or right, which might be more indicative of a trigger control issue, consider whether you are actually breaking the shot when the sights are lined up. I find some shooters, in an attempt to shoot faster, BEGIN to Press the trigger as the front post comes into alignment. By the time the shot breaks the front sight has dipped below equal height.

Fixes are numerous but consider working on your grip and modifying what you need to see ( start the press sooner) in order to initiate firing the gun. If it's a gamer gun consider respringing to minimize the dip or tailor your ammo.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'd suggest Larry Vickers' command fire trigger drill as part of your journey. It's one of several trigger drills of his that I use and one I find the most useful for training to fire a shot at what I term "operational speed", meaning the pace at which you deliver a shot for real. This drill isolates the trigger press function and tests your ability to press in a compressed time frame. Per Larry, it is what Jeff Cooper meant by the term "compressed surprise break".

You need a timer and a smallish target for the distance you're working at. I use the X ring of a B8 bull to seven yards, the ten ring to 15 yards, the black (9 and 10 rings) to 25 yards and an 8" plate to 50 yards. Set your timer to 0.35 seconds when you first start this work and work down to 0.25 seconds for your standard of performance. You can mix dummy rounds in if you wish or not (but it sure keeps you honest to do so). If alone, set a delay and then get the gun aimed in as perfectly as possible and slack out the trigger but do not "cheat" into the actual press. On the beep, fire a center hit in the time frame you're working on. You must fire as SOON AS YOU HEAR the beginning of the beep (which is normally about 0.3 seconds in duration). The hit must be in the zone you declared. That means if I fire a 10 at five yards, it's a stone cold MISS, because the X ring is my zone (and at three yards I require the X itself to be struck).

If you blow a shot from grip or trigger errors, download the gun and execute 10 perfect trigger presses and start over. You should get to the 0.25 or less zone with center hits with work and when you have, you realize that once you've aligned sights and slacked the trigger, you're less than a quarter second from delivering at hit at whatever distance you're working. After you feel good about yourself, go back and do it strong hand only....and then support hand only. At the point you've mastered this, you have also mastered trigger and grip control.

You should see good sights and spend your mental energy on maintaining perfect grip (meaning it doesn't increase with the pressing of the trigger) and a smooth and well paced trigger press. If you can do this drill well and consistently, you're a good fundamental shooter. I use it a lot on all levels of shooters and find it illuminating and often frustrating. My favorite way to run it now is at 50 yards on a plate rack. Some days I'm smug and some days the range air is blue from the profanities!

[ER_STL]

I'd suggest Larry Vickers' command fire trigger drill as part of your journey. It's one of several trigger drills of his that I use and one I find the most useful for training to fire a shot at what I term "operational speed", meaning the pace at which you deliver a shot for real. This drill isolates the trigger press function and tests your ability to press in a compressed time frame. Per Larry, it is what Jeff Cooper meant by the term "compressed surprise break".

You need a timer and a smallish target for the distance you're working at. I use the X ring of a B8 bull to seven yards, the ten ring to 15 yards, the black (9 and 10 rings) to 25 yards and an 8" plate to 50 yards. Set your timer to 0.35 seconds when you first start this work and work down to 0.25 seconds for your standard of performance. You can mix dummy rounds in if you wish or not (but it sure keeps you honest to do so). If alone, set a delay and then get the gun aimed in as perfectly as possible and slack out the trigger but do not "cheat" into the actual press. On the beep, fire a center hit in the time frame you're working on. You must fire as SOON AS YOU HEAR the beginning of the beep (which is normally about 0.3 seconds in duration). The hit must be in the zone you declared. That means if I fire a 10 at five yards, it's a stone cold MISS, because the X ring is my zone (and at three yards I require the X itself to be struck).

If you blow a shot from grip or trigger errors, download the gun and execute 10 perfect trigger presses and start over. You should get to the 0.25 or less zone with center hits with work and when you have, you realize that once you've aligned sights and slacked the trigger, you're less than a quarter second from delivering at hit at whatever distance you're working. After you feel good about yourself, go back and do it strong hand only....and then support hand only. At the point you've mastered this, you have also mastered trigger and grip control.

You should see good sights and spend your mental energy on maintaining perfect grip (meaning it doesn't increase with the pressing of the trigger) and a smooth and well paced trigger press. If you can do this drill well and consistently, you're a good fundamental shooter. I use it a lot on all levels of shooters and find it illuminating and often frustrating. My favorite way to run it now is at 50 yards on a plate rack. Some days I'm smug and some days the range air is blue from the profanities!

Awesome....want to hug it. Which shot timer do you recommend?

[Clusterfrack]

In addition to Wayne's drill, I recommend more dryfire to speed up every aspect of your draw other than breaking the shot. Make it feel normal to draw to a steady sight picture in 0.Xs. I hear you saying that you already do that, but I think you need even more dryfire. At some point you'll be shooting Alphas in 0.9s and feeling totally relaxed. It just takes a lot of work.

[Clobbersaurus]

I think Wayne nailed it. But to add my two cents; it sounds like a pre-ignition push issue that has manifested itself during certain drills. Along with Wayne's drill and lots of dry practice, like Clusterfrack noted, you may want to work in some dummy rounds into your live fire. There is no better way to plainly see trigger press issues than with ball and dummy. Do it randomly for every drill. Load mags with some full of live rounds and some not, throw 'em into a dump pouch, shake it around, and then pull the mags out and fill your mag pouches.

I guarantee that you will quickly flush out your issue(s) and you will work hard to resolve it, as there is nothing worse than seeing your gun dip horribly on a dead round.

One last thing, which you probably already know, but it is worth saying again: Grip the gun harder. It masks a lot of trigger press issues and at speed, at close range, everyone is slapping the shit out of their triggers. The guys who grip the gun hardest have the least issues.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Wayne Dobbs]

Awesome....want to hug it. Which shot timer do you recommend?

I use the PACT Club Timer, but there are lots of others out there that work well.

[Clusterfrack]

I'll second the PACT timer. It's simple and reliable.

I'm not sure Clobber and I are on the same page about "seeing the gun dip" on a dummy round. There's nothing wrong with a post ignition push--you'll see a lot of very high level shooters do this when they have a misfire. It's a big problem if it's a pre ignition push. You can sometimes train out a preignition push by using a dummy round.

[Sterling Archer]

I went through the same thing. It's a stress induced flinch trying to compensate for recoil to gain speed. Here's a great drill to show it and help you work through it:


https://youtu.be/NxyTFzgWjhk

[GJM]

I did Wayne's drill on eight inch plates at 50 yards today. Neat drill, and really reinforces the desirability of aggressively prepping.

I would also make sure you are watching the sights/dot throughout the entire trigger press. This happens me sometimes when I shoot LEM after shorter triggers -- I need to be careful to concentrate throughout the press, since it takes longer.

[Jared]

I'd suggest Larry Vickers' command fire trigger drill as part of your journey. It's one of several trigger drills of his that I use and one I find the most useful for training to fire a shot at what I term "operational speed", meaning the pace at which you deliver a shot for real. This drill isolates the trigger press function and tests your ability to press in a compressed time frame. Per Larry, it is what Jeff Cooper meant by the term "compressed surprise break".

You need a timer and a smallish target for the distance you're working at. I use the X ring of a B8 bull to seven yards, the ten ring to 15 yards, the black (9 and 10 rings) to 25 yards and an 8" plate to 50 yards. Set your timer to 0.35 seconds when you first start this work and work down to 0.25 seconds for your standard of performance. You can mix dummy rounds in if you wish or not (but it sure keeps you honest to do so). If alone, set a delay and then get the gun aimed in as perfectly as possible and slack out the trigger but do not "cheat" into the actual press. On the beep, fire a center hit in the time frame you're working on. You must fire as SOON AS YOU HEAR the beginning of the beep (which is normally about 0.3 seconds in duration). The hit must be in the zone you declared. That means if I fire a 10 at five yards, it's a stone cold MISS, because the X ring is my zone (and at three yards I require the X itself to be struck).

If you blow a shot from grip or trigger errors, download the gun and execute 10 perfect trigger presses and start over. You should get to the 0.25 or less zone with center hits with work and when you have, you realize that once you've aligned sights and slacked the trigger, you're less than a quarter second from delivering at hit at whatever distance you're working. After you feel good about yourself, go back and do it strong hand only....and then support hand only. At the point you've mastered this, you have also mastered trigger and grip control.

You should see good sights and spend your mental energy on maintaining perfect grip (meaning it doesn't increase with the pressing of the trigger) and a smooth and well paced trigger press. If you can do this drill well and consistently, you're a good fundamental shooter. I use it a lot on all levels of shooters and find it illuminating and often frustrating. My favorite way to run it now is at 50 yards on a plate rack. Some days I'm smug and some days the range air is blue from the profanities!

Love this. Actually did a lot of the same thing dry, just never tried it live.

Wayne, I assume you do this with both trigger modes on a DA/SA, correct?

[GJM]

Love this. Actually did a lot of the same thing dry, just never tried it live.

Wayne, I assume you do this with both trigger modes on a DA/SA, correct?

I would focus on SA, as DA is cheating on shots like this, and the short SA is often where issues surface.

[Jared]

I would focus on SA, as DA is cheating on shots like this, and the short SA is often where issues surface.

Ok, I'm guessing you're implying the rolling DA trigger helps prevent anticipation issues and thus this drill is best done SA where the short pull/wall combo causes a problem of mashing stuff while trying to break the shot "right now." Otherwise, you'll have to explain this one to me in a little more detail

[GJM]

Ok, I'm guessing you're implying the rolling DA trigger helps prevent anticipation issues and thus this drill is best done SA where the short pull/wall combo causes a problem of mashing stuff while trying to break the shot "right now." Otherwise, you'll have to explain this one to me in a little more detail

Yes, you described it perfectly.

[Jared]

Yes, you described it perfectly.

Ok, then I see your point. I do think there's value in doing it DA, at least dry. That helped teach me to work the DA in one smooth continuous motion, which I think is vital to optimal DA results. Most anticipation issues do occur SA though, which is likely what this drill helps to correct best.

[GJM]

Ok, then I see your point. I do think there's value in doing it DA, at least dry. That helped teach me to work the DA in one smooth continuous motion, which I think is vital to optimal DA results. Most anticipation issues do occur SA though, which is likely what this drill helps to correct best.

A member, in a recent DA/SA thread, described a method of taking up a large amount of travel quickly, until the trigger stacks, then modulating the rest based on target size. I have been experimenting with this, with the P30L, and it is interesting.

[nwhpfan]

If you don't have the issue when you focus on the target then you should just focus on the target. No need to do something for the sake of doing it if it doesn't result in good hits.

Speed is releative to your skill at this time. There is the "limit of human performance" and then everything else. The greatest shooters in the world are included in "everything else" at least some of the time.

If you can do something in 1 second but not .09 seconds then you do it 1 second when you need too, and you do it faster as your learning. Breaking into .09, then .08 is just a matter of doing and failing, evaluating, then adjusting or repeating.

FWIW soemthing DF did for me was "innoculate" myself from noise, sound, flash, etc. My focus is on what I'm doing not what the gun is doing which for some can cause a premature reaction to the recoil. YMMV but there is little out there that can be solved with shooting and DF.

[nwhpfan]

there is little out there that can be solved with shooting and DF.

I mean "can't" be solved....

[Clobbersaurus]

I'll second the PACT timer. It's simple and reliable.

I'm not sure Clobber and I are on the same page about "seeing the gun dip" on a dummy round. There's nothing wrong with a post ignition push--you'll see a lot of very high level shooters do this when they have a misfire. It's a big problem if it's a pre ignition push. You can sometimes train out a preignition push by using a dummy round.

We're on the same page. You just explain things better than I do. :cool:

[David S.]

Curious?

Once we've "mastered" Wayne Dobbs (or rather Vicker's) drill, does it make sense to start this drill with the trigger pinned to the rear? That would add resetting the trigger.

[ER_STL]

Thanks for the great feedback and information. This helps provide clear direction on the next steps I need to take. Rock and roll!

[Jared]

Curious?

Once we've "mastered" Wayne Dobbs (or rather Vicker's) drill, does it make sense to start this drill with the trigger pinned to the rear? That would add resetting the trigger.

I've done this dry, no reason it cannot be done live as well

[Wayne Dobbs]

Curious?

Once we've "mastered" Wayne Dobbs (or rather Vicker's) drill, does it make sense to start this drill with the trigger pinned to the rear? That would add resetting the trigger.

No. I don't ever pin triggers. For the drill: slack out the trigger, establish sights and press smoothly/quickly on the beep without disturbing the lay of the gun on the target. Repeat until mastery has occurred. Reset the trigger and take up slack DURING RECOIL, not afterwards. When the gun comes out of recoil, you should have a slacked out trigger and a new (and excellent) sight picture and be <0.25 seconds from another center hit.

[Hrhawk]

A member, in a recent DA/SA thread, described a method of taking up a large amount of travel quickly, until the trigger stacks, then modulating the rest based on target size. I have been experimenting with this, with the P30L, and it is interesting.


That may have been me. I would be curious to get your opinion after you have played with it for a while. Please PM me if you get the chance.

[GJM]

That may have been me. I would be curious to get your opinion after you have played with it for a while. Please PM me if you get the chance.

Will answer here, since others will be interested. Have been using it with a P30L, and drybfire with a USP FS and Langdon PX4C.

As I understand your method, it is to use the stacking point as a gauge of how far through the DA press you are. Go aggressive to get to the stacking, then modulate the remaining travel based on target distance and size. I like that it is a way of bifurcating the press, allowing speed and precision.

Timer says it is fast, so I like it.

[Hrhawk]

That is it. I choose to roll through the stack slower when the shot is more difficult (size/distance/danger). In my mind his slow down is not to allow for a cleaner trigger pull (that's a bonus). Dry fire tells me how fast I can be without disturbing the sight alignment/picture. I slow down so that my eyes may better "see" the level/quality of sight picture needed to make the shot.

[Leroy]

I did Wayne's drill on eight inch plates at 50 yards today. Neat drill, and really reinforces the desirability of aggressively prepping.

I would also make sure you are watching the sights/dot throughout the entire trigger press. This happens me sometimes when I shoot LEM after shorter triggers -- I need to be careful to concentrate throughout the press, since it takes longer.

LEM is awesome for shooting nice tight groups....6 inches low. I started a thread about front sight heights because it through me for such a loop my first couple range trips, felt like a dumbass later.

[Mr_White]

ER_STL,

Sorry about my slowness getting back to you. I was out of town, and arrived back to a totally screwed up computer/internet situation and I am finally up and running again.

Much good advice has already been given in this thread.

To add my $.02:

Work on isolating your trigger finger at speed. Do this dry and live both. When the trigger finger starts moving faster, it is harder to isolate it and avoid sympathetic squeeze in the other fingers of the same hand. The Command Fire drill that Wayne Dobbs suggested is excellent and fits right into this category. Here are a few more drills that speak to this element:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23545-Week-196-Jerk-The-Trigger (just the version of the Command Fire drill I wrote up for the DotW)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18228-Week-141-Three-Triggers (dry fire work on the basic trigger press, with finger starting from a few different positions)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15504-Week-105-Driving-The-Gun-Single-Target (dry fire work on linking front sight movement to the next trigger press)

You might want to prep/put more weight on the trigger during recoil. There is a fine line here (too heavy and you'll fire the shot while the gun is still in recoil, before it is back on target.) Resetting and then putting more weight on the trigger while the front sight is going up and coming back to the target spot will tend to make the subsequent shot a little easier to finalize without pulling the gun low.

Trying hard to control recoil, or actively driving the gun back to the target spot, can sometimes result in overdriving the gun lower than the target spot. You might experiment with a simple mental intention - instead of trying to bring the gun back, see if having a thought of allowing the gun to come back to the target spot helps. Sometimes that is a more productive intention/thought.

And if you think target focused shooting is working better for you (in this case, in terms of avoiding a possible anticipatory issue), then I think it is worth exploring target focused shooting. A lot of excellent shooting is done exactly that way - don't discount its potential.

Good luck!

Gabe

[John J. McCarthy, Jr.]

Your brain is anticipating the recoil and is pushing forward (and usually down) on the gun. Try relaxing and taking deep breaths and on an exhale slowly perform you best trigger press. When you get this very common flinch beat just increase the speed of your shots. When your groups begin to widen slow down to when they tighten again. Repeat.

Also dry-firing improves everything.

http://www.anamericanwithagun.com/ (http://nope)

[Jared]

I've been using the drill Wayne Dobbs posted in this thread the last two range trips. I highly recommend it to anyone that's reading this and on the fence about it. Also shared it with a good friend of mine that's been having some issues when he tries to speed up, hoping it helps him as well

[Mr Pink]

I'm in agreement with the advice from Wayne Dobbs and Clusterfrack on first page. Why? Because I dry fire and use command fire drills and Mr_White recommendations above. It seems to work for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFY9823rcj8

[Leroy Suggs]

I'm in agreement with the advice from Wayne Dobbs and Clusterfrack on first page. Why? Because I dry fire and use command fire drills and Mr_White recommendations above. It seems to work for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFY9823rcj8

Awesome.

[Mr_White]

I'm in agreement with the advice from Wayne Dobbs and Clusterfrack on first page. Why? Because I dry fire and use command fire drills and Mr_White recommendations above. It seems to work for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFY9823rcj8

Awesome video Mr Pink!

[Mr Pink]

Awesome video Mr Pink!
Thanks! I learned a thing or two from a class I took from Pistol Shooting Solutions ;)

[Jared]

Wayne Dobbs, curious if you think it is worthwhile to do the commander fire drill with a rimfire conversion on the pistol, like those made the Glock or Beretta that replace the whole top end and the magazine with a 22LR setup.

I'd like to hear your thoughts if you don't mind elaborating.

[ER_STL]

I'm in agreement with the advice from Wayne Dobbs and Clusterfrack on first page. Why? Because I dry fire and use command fire drills and Mr_White recommendations above. It seems to work for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFY9823rcj8

Awesome.

I find videos such as yours both very discouraging and encouraging. On one hand, they show the obvious gaps in my current skillset and it's difficult to imagine being able to clear my shirt, establish a solid strong-hand grip, draw, ensure a good mate with my support hand, align my sights and score an A in under a second. I'm currently hitting As at around a 1.5s to 1.7s time when I'm running a strong-side paddle holster without a cover garment. On the other hand, given that I have some athletic inclination, I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to achieve the same level of proficiency if I put in the work. I'm betting on that last part being true... :cool:

[Mr Pink]

Awesome.

I find videos such as yours both very discouraging and encouraging. On one hand, they show the obvious gaps in my current skillset and it's difficult to imagine being able to clear my shirt, establish a solid strong-hand grip, draw, ensure a good mate with my support hand, align my sights and score an A in under a second. I'm currently hitting As at around a 1.5s to 1.7s time when I'm running a strong-side paddle holster without a cover garment. On the other hand, given that I have some athletic inclination, I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to achieve the same level of proficiency if I put in the work. I'm betting on that last part being true... :cool:
Thank you. You are absolutely correct that having some athletic inclination should make it easy to achieve those same levels. I know of at least one world class, USPSA Grand-Master that has about zero athletic inclination and he would also tell me "if I can do it, you can too". I look forward to hearing about your progress.