.40 S&W -- "hard to sell right now"

[Mark D]

This probably comes as no surprise, but I was in two different gun shops yesterday and in both stores the staff told me that .40 S&W pistols are hard to sell.

Store 1: Had couple of nice used guns, including an older P229 and a USPc, both in .40 caliber. I examined both and commented that I'd probably buy them if they were 9x19. The owner replied "if they were 9mm they would have sold already". He said he was having a hard time moving anything in .40, and he had several more .40 pistols in the back, but he didn't have any room in the display case.

Store 2: I spied a used PX4 in the case for less than $400. But when I handled it I was disappointed to discover it was .40. The owner stated "Yeah, .40 is a tough sell right now".

The market for .40 S&W appears to have completely tanked. I'm surprised how fast it happened, it seems like only yesterday everyone and their brother wanted a "foh-tey".

[GJM]

I bought a PPQ 5 inch and USP Tactical in .40 so cheap, in Gunbroker auctions, I was almost embarrassed. Only .40 pistols with value these days seem to be 1911/2011 for gaming.

[Father of 3]

During the liquidation of the local Gander Mtn a few months ago, once ammo went on sale the only remaining semi auto handgun ammo was 40. I was surprised how much was left of it. Seems to have been a mass exodus from 40.

[HopetonBrown]

A guy who owns 2 gunstores in my area said that when he opened 7 years ago it was about 50/50 9 vs 40. Today he says it's 10 to 1.

[TexasSiegfried]

While a little concerning, still very good news for us that shoot .40. I just hope the doomsayers aren't correct and that the.40 will be going away, or become an expensive boutique round.

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[Bigghoss]

The only reason I ever bought any gun in .40 was because I got a trade-in G22 for $300 and I remember when 9mm and .45 was hard to find but .40 was still on the shelves. I've thought about getting an M&P .40 trade-in because they're $300 too but for $400 I can get a 9mm PX4 which is the current family of guns I'm carrying or for under $300 I can get an SD9 for a just because gun. I passed on a $400 USP .40 a few months ago but I almost regret that. Almost.

[beenalongtime]

While a little concerning, still very good news for us that shoot .40. I just hope the doomsayers aren't correct and that the.40 will be going away, or become an expensive boutique round.

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+1

My first shooting experience was with a 10mm Glock. The two people I was with, were a novice and a former military/LEO sniper and both didn't like it, but the later told me I seemed to take to it like water.
So when I started looking, 9mm was still hard to get, and relative and friend LEO"s were shooting .40's. They still are and I do as well. Since prices have dropped, I also have most of the guns in 9mm in case the above happens.

[Mark D]

The only reason I ever bought any gun in .40 was because I got a trade-in G22 for $300 and I remember when 9mm and .45 was hard to find but .40 was still on the shelves. I've thought about getting an M&P .40 trade-in because they're $300 too but for $400 I can get a 9mm PX4 which is the current family of guns I'm carrying or for under $300 I can get an SD9 for a just because gun. I passed on a $400 USP .40 a few months ago but I almost regret that. Almost.

I would have snagged the USP. In my area I never see used USP's for less than $700, in any caliber.

[Bigghoss]

I would have snagged the USP. In my area I never see used USP's for less than $700, in any caliber.

I saw a couple USP .40s for a little more than that online but I can't recall where. They are out there.

[LockedBreech]

Based on this thread, I have two super, super lowball bids in on gunbroker. Curious to see if I get lucky.

[DallasBronco]

While not my favorite round, I like .40, and I like being able to shoot it well. During every panic, it is the ammo I could always find. I haven't been around this long enough to spot trends, but this may just be a low cycle in the round's popularity and we may someday wish it was less popular, sort of like it is now. In some ways, I've always preferred a Glock 23 to a 19.

[Nephrology]

Based on this thread, I have two super, super lowball bids in on gunbroker. Curious to see if I get lucky.

i got a M&P45 for $300 that way

[LockedBreech]

i got a M&P45 for $300 that way

This is not much of a brag, but I got a 2015-manufacture like-new Springfield XD-9 4" Service a few months ago for $265 including my FFL's transfer fee.

I mostly just got it because I like collecting popular/reference pistols, no intent to carry or use for any serious purpose, but for $265 it has been fun to range-plink with.

Gunbroker low-balling is so dangerous to the wallet.

[Nephrology]

Gunbroker low-balling is so dangerous to the wallet.

Tell me about it. Hold my beer...

[Nephrology]

I actually have right next to me on my nightstand a Glock 35 with 2 mags of Federal 180gr HST. I really like that gun. I would own another. I will definitely carry it sometime this winter.

[LockedBreech]

I will definitely carry it sometime this winter.

I live in an area that gets really cold, and super-heavy clothing layers are one of the main drivers of persistent .40 popularity with LE in the area.

[zart312]

I just picked up a police trade in full size usp for $422 out the door. Only 40 I have. I figured at that price I can't go wrong.


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[Patrick Taylor]

Still 40 cal here , I like the round. The negatives I see people mention about the round have never really bothered me and did not notice them.

[Bucky]

Still 40 cal here , I like the round. The negatives I see people mention about the round have never really bothered me and did not notice them.

Yeah, the .40 is certainly in a slump, and handgun sales are down in general. My local shop has a nice condition PX4 compact for $299 in .40. Came really, really close to picking it up, but have other things on my agenda. So close, if not for the paperwork, I'd have gotten it.

[spinmove_]

It is somewhat surprising. My wife is still a stalwart .40S&W fan (despite the fact that she hasn't shot in years). She does tend to be fairly myopic in her decisions though.


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[Hi-Point Aficionado]

I love the Short & Weak though having been taught centerfire pistol on the Glock 22 my father was issued may have something to do with that. I also cast my own bullets and have a Dillon so come what may as long as I can get brass. Speaking of handloading, I have found that 40 S&W runs more smoothly through the press than 9x19mm. My last four belt guns have all been chambered for 40 S&W and I'm currently considering making myself an AIWB for the PX4 compact to try against my current heavy LEM USP compact. It will come down to deciding if I more value a trigger I prefer shooting or a paddle mag release I prefer carrying.

I'll also second the preference for a G23 over a G19. That said, my 23 currently lives with a Glock 32 barrel as a mostly permanent 357 Sig platform which I like even more than .40 in the pistol.


I actually have right next to me on my nightstand a Glock 35 with 2 mags of Federal 180gr HST. I really like that gun.

Still bummed you decided not to sell that. The budget slot I had set aside went into a USP compact IIRC.

[ranger]

I had a clean used Glock 35 as my HD with light and a brand new G35 in the safe I bought for USPSA but never used (had Para and STI instead). I recently sold both of the G35s on the local "Outdoor Trader" quickly for good prices to draw down toward 9mm. I am down to my ParaOrdnance P16 plus a M&P PRO 5inch (with a Stormlake 40 to 9 conversion barrel) for 40.

CDNN and AIM have had really great deals on new and police tradein 40 pistols. The discount ammo suppliers like SG Ammo have been running deals on loaded 40 also.

I am a brass picker-upper at my range (private club north of ATL - somebody has to pick the stuff up!). Easy to see that almost all the brass left is 9. Lately - besides 9mm, I see more 45 then 40 on the ground. Most of our club members do not reload - maybe the 40 shooters are picking theirs back up. On occasion, local LEO use our range - I hits the jackpot when they left a bunch of 40 behind.

As a reloader, I remember when 45 brass was plentiful when DOD carried 45s. After the DOD move to 9mm, 45 brass became harder to get. I expect that 40 brass will get harder to find now as LE move to 9mm. I want to make sure I have several thousand 40 brass before they get scarce.

[Tamara]

The speed with which the .40 market has cratered surprised me.

On the upside, if you absolutely need a cheap, quality gat to weigh down your sock drawer and keep the boogieman away, Gen3 po-po trade-in Glock 22's are all over the place for $300-$350.

[JHC]

I kinda like both the .40 and .357 Sig. Both my Gen 4 G22 and Gen 4 G31 are very accurate pistols. I've noted here on DoW results when comparing pistols/scores is that while a bit slower than 9mm on speed oriented DoW, very often my hits are better with fewer dropped points. I assume because at the slightly slower pace, and I mean slightly, I am better able to execute better trigger presses and process the visual better.

With better skill and patience I should be able to overcome that with 9mm as well but it is what it is today. And in the contextualized shooting of a precise target, that may be moving, perhaps while I am moving . . . I'm not at all convinced the .40 suffers much, for me.

[JHC]

I had a clean used Glock 35 as my HD with light and a brand new G35 in the safe I bought for USPSA but never used (had Para and STI instead). I recently sold both of the G35s on the local "Outdoor Trader" quickly for good prices to draw down toward 9mm. I am down to my ParaOrdnance P16 plus a M&P PRO 5inch (with a Stormlake 40 to 9 conversion barrel) for 40.

CDNN and AIM have had really great deals on new and police tradein 40 pistols. The discount ammo suppliers like SG Ammo have been running deals on loaded 40 also.

I am a brass picker-upper at my range (private club north of ATL - somebody has to pick the stuff up!). Easy to see that almost all the brass left is 9. Lately - besides 9mm, I see more 45 then 40 on the ground. Most of our club members do not reload - maybe the 40 shooters are picking theirs back up. On occasion, local LEO use our range - I hits the jackpot when they left a bunch of 40 behind.

As a reloader, I remember when 45 brass was plentiful when DOD carried 45s. After the DOD move to 9mm, 45 brass became harder to get. I expect that 40 brass will get harder to find now as LE move to 9mm. I want to make sure I have several thousand 40 brass before they get scarce.

Sure sounds like where I shoot: RBGC. That's a fair bit of my brass! :D

[Cypher]

I probably never would have owned a .40 except my wife asked me to carry a .40 because (at the time) .40S&W. was cheaper than .45ACP.

I got a CZ75B in .40S&W (because when SWMBO tells you to buy a gun you listen.) but even then it was more that gun that I liked than the round.

When I decided to consolidate down to one caliber for handguns a couple of years back the choice between 9mm and .40 S&W was pretty much made for me by my wife's arthritis. We shoot 9mm.

The only .40S&W handgun I kept was a S&W 4006 and even then it's more that gun that I like than the caliber. My wife bought herself a Glock19 yesterday so barring unforeseen circumstances I'm pretty sure our gun buying days are over. I don't see anything on the the horizon that I just gotta have but if I did I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a .40?

[pangloss]

I've come close to placing some low ball Gunbroker bids on some Gen4 G35's, but I really want a Gen5 G19. Seems like having a
.40 of some sort would be a good idea though...

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[DAB]

just checked BulkAmmo.com, and the prices for 40SW ammo have really come down. guess they are trying to get rid of their supply somehow.

heading to the grand opening of Cabelas in Albuquerque next week, have a few $$ to spend on something. have a few 40SW pistols, but if something really interesting is in the case, i might be tempted. like a Beretta 96?

[JHC]

Weird double

[JHC]

I think we've seen the pioneering of the .40 with stout bullets emerge as a sidearm for "woods" use. (Hat tip to GJM and others)

DocGkr has mentioned on many occasions that as solid as the best 9mm loads are, if he were in a role that was vehicle intensive, the .40 could be it.

Large, aggressive mammals, like an old Buick.

Whodathunk

[GJM]

I think we've seen the pioneering of the .40 with stout bullets emerge as a sidearm for "woods" use.

DocGkr has mentioned on many occasions that as solid as the best 9mm loads are, if he were in a role that was vehicle intensive, the .40 could be it.

Large, aggressive mammals, like an old Buick.

Whodathunk

I kind of thought so, but after checking the sectional density and penetration data of the 9 vs .40 woods loads that feed reliably in my pistols, it is not obvious that .40 is preferable in the woods.

[Nephrology]

I'd be sad if .40 got more expensive.

It would be worth it if 9mm got cheaper, though.

[JHC]

I kind of thought so, but after checking the sectional density and penetration data of the 9 vs .40 woods loads that feed reliably in my pistols, it is not obvious that .40 is preferable in the woods.
I think the XTP and Critical Duty for two would do pretty well.

[GJM]

I think the XTP and Critical Duty for two would do pretty well.

Hornady CS told me that the Critical Duty will significantly out penetrate the XTP in 10mm. Here is a link to their data comparing penetration of the various Critical Duty calibers. Haven't looked at it closely, but it might shed light on 9 vs .40 in the woods application.

[Soggy]

Are there any .40 cal guns that lend themselves to easily converting to 9 mm? Might be worth the price of a new barrel if you can get a screaming deal on a .40.

[Nephrology]

Are there any .40 cal guns that lend themselves to easily converting to 9 mm? Might be worth the price of a new barrel if you can get a screaming deal on a .40.

Glocks; especially Gen 3/2.

[Soggy]

Glocks; especially Gen 3/2.

Interesting, thank you.

[JHC]

Hornady CS told me that the Critical Duty will significantly out penetrate the XTP in 10mm. Here is a link to their data comparing penetration of the various Critical Duty calibers. Haven't looked at it closely, but it might shed light on 9 vs .40 in the woods application.

I think 9mm is a sleeper too.

Most of them look pretty similar in gel after defeating the windshield. Slight edge to the Sig round. It would come down to a possible preference
for greater mass for the "caliber starts with a 4" angle.

[hufnagel]

I've been tempted to grab a P30 in .40 simply because balls cheap pricing, but the price delta between it and a 9mm variant seems to work out to be about the same as the price delta between 10 cases of ammo of each. so after the 10th case of .40 i'm now more expensive than having gotten 9mm. now if .40 ammo prices crater as well that would be awesome, but something tells me that's not going to happen.

[GJM]

Hornady CS told me that the Critical Duty will significantly out penetrate the XTP in 10mm. Here is a link to their data comparing penetration of the various Critical Duty calibers. Haven't looked at it closely, but it might shed light on 9 vs .40 in the woods application.

Link:

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/Hornady-LE-Military-Application-Guide.pdf

[JHC]

Link:

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/Hornady-LE-Military-Application-Guide.pdf

Rhut rho. Does their explanation of safety glass mean windshields or side window glass. I couldn't tell from their explanation, not knowing the jargon of glass.

[Nephrology]

Still bummed you decided not to sell that. The budget slot I had set aside went into a USP compact IIRC.

It's too fun, and vaguely practical in 15rd mag cap state.

[LockedBreech]

Are there any .40 cal guns that lend themselves to easily converting to 9 mm? Might be worth the price of a new barrel if you can get a screaming deal on a .40.

Recoil and a few other sites frequently have Gen4 G22s for about $350. Conversion barrel and magazines gives you a two-caliber solution for about the price of a new Glock. Not bad.


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[JonInWA]

My rationale for .40 is this: First, with the right pistol platform(s), it's not only a viable/credible chambering, but also controllable. The critical caveat is in the "with the right platform" phrase. My "keeper" choices have been an FN Hi Power Mk III, Glock Gen4 G22, HK VP40 and HK P30L. The HKs are the easiest, most accurate, and most comfortable to shoot, but the Glock and FN aren't exactly slouches.

Second, I think that the .40 is coming into its own as a viable woods/wilderness cartridge, with judicious choices (cartridges + platforms). For me, it's usually a wash between HK and Glock, but platform preferability may/can be dictated situationally. While my woods gun of preference has been my Gen 3 Glock G21, I'm much more open-minded now regarding using my HKVP40, P30L, or Glock Gen4 G22 as woods guns (and possibly even my 9mm Gen 3 Glock G34...)

Third, while 9mm is still a bit less expensive than .40 in most applications, .40 is still reasonably inexpensive and available.

Fourth, I remember too that in the last two ammunition shortfall crazes .40 (and pretty much ONLY .40 for months) was not only available, but available at reasonable prices. A lot of that may well have had to do by it's high level of standardization by LEOs, and could change if/as LEOs switch over to 9mm, but I suspect that .40 will still hold a significant sway in LEO circles for some time.

There are some truly excellent platforms for .40 available to us today-guns that have been tailored to the cartridge, and not just 9mm platforms with minimal shoehorning to allow a .40 chambering to fit and work (but with some compromises and degradation to platform longevity/durability). Some of these platforms have been recently available at some pretty staggering discounts...

For me (and this may well be limited to me), I find any of my specific .40 choices easier to shoot fast and well more so than my .45 ACP selections (various quality 1911s and a Gen 3 Glock G21).

Best, Jon

[Velo Dog]

Does their explanation of safety glass mean windshields or side window glass?

"one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass set at an angle of 45 degrees from vertical and 15 degrees from the line of flight of the bullet"

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty

[M2CattleCo]

40 in handguns and 308 in long guns.

Good riddance to both!

9mm and 6.5 baby.:cool:

[CCT125US]

There are some decent prices on GB for .40 cal Hks. However, the money not spent could purchase alot of reloading components. Buy the gun and you still need to feed it.

Look at me being all rational and such.

[Bucky]

40 in handguns and 308 in long guns.

Good riddance to both!

9mm and 6.5 baby.:cool:

Yes, but isn't .40 the 6.5 of the handgun world? 9mm is 5.56, and .45 is 7.62x51, then it would stand to reason.... :rolleyes: :p :D

[Velo Dog]

Hornady CS told me that the Critical Duty will significantly out penetrate the XTP in 10mm.

Comparing Hornady's Critical Duty results with their .40 & .45 XTP loadings, it appears the biggest difference is more consistent/ideal performance after auto glass & sheet metal.

All of the Critical Duty loads show similar penetration, but the 40 S&W has slightly less overall.
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty
The 9mm Luger penetrates well, but has the worst weight retention & recovered expansion after auto glass.

[M2CattleCo]

Yes, but isn't .40 the 6.5 of the handgun world? 9mm is 5.56, and .45 is 7.62x51, then it would stand to reason.... :rolleyes: :p :D

I think 9mm is the 6.5. It's the lighter recoiling, flatter shooting, all out better performing round.

6.5s were popular long before .308 existed.

[JHC]

Comparing Hornady's Critical Duty results with their .40 & .45 XTP loadings, it appears the biggest difference is more consistent/ideal performance after auto glass & sheet metal.

All of the Critical Duty loads show similar penetration, but the 40 S&W has slightly less overall.
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty
The 9mm Luger penetrates well, but has the worst weight retention & recovered expansion after auto glass.

Where did the XTP slip? In expansion or penetration?

[Tamara]

Where did the XTP slip? In expansion or penetration?

They tend not to expand well after barriers.

20051

[Velo Dog]

Where did the XTP slip? In expansion or penetration?

The 200gr .45 XTP @ 833fps did not defeat the sheet metal and only penetrated 10.5 inches after the auto glass. This was the worst performer.

The 155gr 40 S&W @ 1152fps overpenetrated to 21.5" in the sheet metal gelatin performance test with a max. bullet expansion of .460"

While the 180gr 40 S&W was deemed the best overall performer, only the 230gr .45 Auto avoided jacket separation after passing through auto glass. However, the 230gr load did not expand after the sheet rock barrier.

The 147gr 9mm showed adequate penetration, but experienced jacket separation in auto glass & sheet metal testing according to the Hornady 2011 TAP report.

[Velo Dog]

In the Hornady auto glass test both the 9mm 147 & 40 S&W 180 XTP penetrated 12" in 10% gelatin.

The 9mm 147 XTP had a maximum recovered bullet expansion of .570"
The 40 S&W 180 XTP had a max. bullet expansion of... .575"

[David S.]

How is the felt recoil on P30 .40 vs 9mm?

I spent a week shooting Ranger-T .40 through a USPc a couple years ago. I didn't think I was recoil sensitive, but that was miserable. Every round was painful.

[GJM]

How is the felt recoil on P30 .40 vs 9mm?

I spent a week shooting Ranger-T .40 through a USPc a couple years ago. I didn't think I was recoil sensitive, but that was miserable. Every round was painful.

The L is better, as is a USP FS.

40 in a polymer pistol is no fun on a high round count day.

[andre3k]

It seems like my secret has got out. I've been snagging 40's on for cheap on gunbroker for the last two years. The only ammo I buy is my duty and defensive ammo, other than that I load everything that I shoot. When you reload the cost of 40 is comparable to 9 and the recoil is often less. A 180 grain bullet at 750 fps is a very soft shooting load. If it wasn't for this, I would probably be shooting 9mm like everyone else. Fortunately, 40 brass is plentiful and cheap right now but I wonder what the supply will look like in 5 years.

[Screwball]

6.5s were popular long before .308 existed.

Yea... those Swedes, Italians, and Japanese.

But let me tell you, having two out of three of them (Oswald replica and a Type I Carcano), I'd take a .308. Being in the US, it is just a widely more stocked round... not to mention all the data out there on it. 6.5mm, is a good bullet diameter, but it is going to take a few more years for it to get the market shares to be as common (talking specifically about Creedmoor).

For .40, I really was never a huge fan. It's ok, and I picked up a few firearms that shoot it... but I love 10mm. For other pistols, I either picked 9mm or .45. That being said, I'm not selling my .40s. Bad time to, but I like options. It is only a matter of time we have another scare, and I like being able to buy something I can shoot.

I'm also moving into a job where .40 is the issued sidearm, so kind of have to deal with it. There isn't any negatives... other than it not being 9mm or .45. There are always trends with calibers... just wait until 10mm is dying again, and .40/.357 SIG are back on the pedestal. Then, people forget... and something new/old is the hot thing to shoot.

[GJM]

It seems like my secret has got out. I've been snagging 40's on for cheap on gunbroker for the last two years. The only ammo I buy is my duty and defensive ammo, other than that I load everything that I shoot. When you reload the cost of 40 is comparable to 9 and the recoil is often less. A 180 grain bullet at 750 fps is a very soft shooting load. If it wasn't for this, I would probably be shooting 9mm like everyone else. Fortunately, 40 brass is plentiful and cheap right now but I wonder what the supply will look like in 5 years.

I know shooters competing with .40 in Production, and they believe .40 minor is softer than 9mm.

[DallasBronco]

This is making me want to add a couple of PX4's Compacts in .40. I already have several in 9mm, so this may be another option for carry.

[LockedBreech]

Fortunately, 40 brass is plentiful and cheap right now but I wonder what the supply will look like in 5 years.

Honestly, it will be fine. Fringe/enthusiast calibers like .357 SIG and 10mm have hung on and even thrived at times for decades without enjoying a fraction of the popularity of .40 even at their peak. In like 10-20 years it might be a problem, but 5? Nah.

[rathos]

In 10 years most common cartridges will probably be hard to fine. At that point we will be shooting a phase plasma rife in a 40 watt range, or 10mm caseless armor-piercing ammunition from our M41A pulse rifles...

It is funny you mention the .357 sig round though. I purchased a P229 in .40 recently because it had a .357 sig barrel. Shot the .40 for a mag, and tossed the barrel back in my gun safe and only shoot .357 sig with it. .40 is seriously one of those rounds I would not be disappointed to see disappear forever.


Honestly, it will be fine. Fringe/enthusiast calibers like .357 SIG and 10mm have hung on and even thrived at times for decades without enjoying a fraction of the popularity of .40 even at their peak. In like 10-20 years it might be a problem, but 5? Nah.

[M2CattleCo]

Yea... those Swedes, Italians, and Japanese.

But let me tell you, having two out of three of them (Oswald replica and a Type I Carcano), I'd take a .308. Being in the US, it is just a widely more stocked round... not to mention all the data out there on it. 6.5mm, is a good bullet diameter, but it is going to take a few more years for it to get the market shares to be as common (talking specifically about Creedmoor).




Come to Central and South Texas. Every decent gun shop around here is well stocked with good match 6.5CM. All the 308 ammo anyone stocks anymore is AR10 blasting junk. I was on the hunt for some FGMM 175s last week and found none in my travels. Gun shop folks said nobody shoots 308 anymore. Guess I'm a nobody.:eek:

[Jared]

Come to Central and South Texas. Every decent gun shop around here is well stocked with good match 6.5CM. All the 308 ammo anyone stocks anymore is AR10 blasting junk. I was on the hunt for some FGMM 175s last week and found none in my travels. Gun shop folks said nobody shoots 308 anymore. Guess I'm a nobody.:eek:

The pendulum swings both ways. I was heavy into bolt rifles when 17hmr and 204 Ruger hit and everyone was sub caliber crazy around where I live...and then they all went back to the 223 and 22-250 and 22LR.

I'm not saying 6.5CM is a fad or a poor choice, it's just on the cover of lots of magazines right now. Give it some time and stuff will normalize

[Hemiram]

I'm going to take a bath on my .40 Sig 229 I'm selling. I tried to sell it locally for a while, and got not one single offer on it, so now it's going to go online, and if I get $400 for it, with 2 brand new mags, I'll be thrilled. I have about $500 in it. When I bought it, $500 was a great price. Now, there are so many .40's super cheap, both new and used, it's almost not worth selling. But it's been a bad month, so I need the $350-400 I'll get.

And when it's gone, that will be the end of my 5 gun .40 ownership experience. On the other ones, I broke even or made a little money on them. Those were the days.

[Bucky]

I know shooters competing with .40 in Production, and they believe .40 minor is softer than 9mm.

I have a G34 and G35 set up identically for production. IMHO, the 35 shoots softer and is more accurate (compared to the 34 with 147 grain bullets). I began shooting the 34 more mostly because my access to 9mm brass. If my Shadow 2 doesn't work out for me, I'm likely going back to the 35.

[dwcopple]

heading to the grand opening of Cabelas in Albuquerque next week, have a few $$ to spend on something.
If you know you are going to buy, go online and buy some discount gift cards for there to stretch your money even further. There are tons of $20 off $100+ coupons floating around out there too right now

[Duelist]

I'm going to take a bath on my .40 Sig 229 I'm selling. I tried to sell it locally for a while, and got not one single offer on it, so now it's going to go online, and if I get $400 for it, with 2 brand new mags, I'll be thrilled. I have about $500 in it. When I bought it, $500 was a great price. Now, there are so many .40's super cheap, both new and used, it's almost not worth selling. But it's been a bad month, so I need the $350-400 I'll get.

And when it's gone, that will be the end of my 5 gun .40 ownership experience. On the other ones, I broke even or made a little money on them. Those were the days.

If you become a site supporter, you can sell it here.

[Duelist]

Weird double tap.

[KhanRad]

DocGkr has mentioned on many occasions that as solid as the best 9mm loads are, if he were in a role that was vehicle intensive, the .40 could be it.

Doc has stated this over the years, even in recent years with the modernization of 9mm JHPs. I myself have shot up a number of cars during training and when we have recovered bullets the .40s always look the best. I'm not an engineer, but I think it is because of the caliber size itself, along with a short bullet ogive. This allows the expansing petals to retain a lot of thickness and are thus more durable. Another interesting observation(I wish I had taken pictures) is that when passing through a car door the 9mm wants to expand with its long bullet ogive and the recovered bullet tends to shed at least some of its petals. The .40 bullet is so durable that it either retains all of its petals, or the front of the JHP gets pushed inward resulting in the bullet expanding from the pushed in petals. In short, the .40 penetrates great and comes out fully intact........the 9mm penetrates decently, but comes out mangled. We even used the newer Speer 147gr G2s.

As for the .45acp, it does pretty well when you use higher velocity 230gr bonded loads. In slower velocity loads(under 850fps) its penetration through auto materials is lacking. We run Win RB 230gr and it runs in the range of 890fps out of a Sig P220 and it does great. There is something very satisfying about recovering intact, quarter sized expanded projectiles.

However, I would agree with Doc that the .40S&W does indeed make for the ideal caliber to use in and around vehicles. Kinda like the .45acp though, you have to select a firearm that tames the recoil enough to make for more controllable shooting characteristics. The Sig P229 and S&W M&P come to mind.

[beenalongtime]

Weird double tap.

Back to the typing range with you then.:p

[pblanc]

I doubt very much that the supply of .40 S&W ammunition will be drying up anytime soon. There are tons of pistols out there chambered in that caliber. What are the owners going to do? Put them in a safe and stop shooting them or melt them down for scrap?

There are also tons of people like me who enjoy shooting .40 S&W and do just fine with it.

[ranger]

I doubt very much that the supply of .40 S&W ammunition will be drying up anytime soon. There are tons of pistols out there chambered in that caliber. What are the owners going to do? Put them in a safe and stop shooting them or melt them down for scrap?

There are also tons of people like me who enjoy shooting .40 S&W and do just fine with it.

Supply and demand. Seems like the ammo manufacturers, distributers, on line stores etc. are selling 40S&W at low price points. Once they reduce their inventory - how often will they make 40S&W manufacturing runs versus 9mm or other more popular calibers. As they make less, cost per unit goes up as you lose volume. Why does 10mm cost more than 40 - just a slightly longer case, little bit more powder.

[Caballoflaco]

One thing people either forget, or just don't know because they got into shooting later is that .40 became popular during the assault weapons ban. One of the draws for civilians was that if you're limited to ten rounds you might as well stuff bigger bullets into the same size gun as a nine. The return of standard capacity magazines ended that advantage. The AWB is also one of the reasons 1911 were so popular at the turn of the century. I could see .40 regain some popularity if another magazine capacity limit is put in place.

On that note, does anybody here have experience with 1911's in .40?

Probably because I'm a child of the 80's/ 90's and a 1911 was my first serious competition gun, I've been toying with the idea of a Colt Delta Elite with an extra barrel in .40 for more affordable ammo/brass.

[newyork]

My brother is saying he likes .40 and that it's a good idea for me with a 10rd limit. I don't really see the point. Harsher recoil and more costly ammo. He called me limp wristed lol. P30 in .40 was ideal for me in his eyes.

[Bucky]

On that note, does anybody here have experience with 1911's in .40?

Probably because I'm a child of the 80's/ 90's and a 1911 was my first serious competition gun, I've been toying with the idea of a Colt Delta Elite with an extra barrel in .40 for more affordable ammo/brass.

I love my .40 single stack. I have 10 round magazines that fit the "box". Therefore I can look at a match and decide if I want to shoot major or minor power factor. All I need is two different kinds of ammo. You don't get that option with a 9mm or .45.

Also, for shooting minor, I don't get the slide lock nose dives that can occur with a 9mm.

[Bigghoss]

One thing people either forget, or just don't know because they got into shooting later is that .40 became popular during the assault weapons ban. One of the draws for civilians was that if you're limited to ten rounds you might as well stuff bigger bullets into the same size gun as a nine. The return of standard capacity magazines ended that advantage. The AWB is also one of the reasons 1911 were so popular at the turn of the century. I could see .40 regain some popularity if another magazine capacity limit is put in place.

I have been tempted by .40 a few times just because I'm in Colorado and fullsize .40 pistols usually hold 15 rounds so I don't have to hunt for 17 round 9mm rebuild kits or buy mags at inflated prices. I should mention that I am exempt from the capacity limit but buying mags over 15 rounds is still a pain in the ass. I only have one .40, a G22, but I have 10 brand new mags in a box for it just because I can plus an few used mags for the few times I actually shoot the thing.

[JHC]

Doc has stated this over the years, even in recent years with the modernization of 9mm JHPs. I myself have shot up a number of cars during training and when we have recovered bullets the .40s always look the best. I'm not an engineer, but I think it is because of the caliber size itself, along with a short bullet ogive. This allows the expansing petals to retain a lot of thickness and are thus more durable. Another interesting observation(I wish I had taken pictures) is that when passing through a car door the 9mm wants to expand with its long bullet ogive and the recovered bullet tends to shed at least some of its petals. The .40 bullet is so durable that it either retains all of its petals, or the front of the JHP gets pushed inward resulting in the bullet expanding from the pushed in petals. In short, the .40 penetrates great and comes out fully intact........the 9mm penetrates decently, but comes out mangled. We even used the newer Speer 147gr G2s.

As for the .45acp, it does pretty well when you use higher velocity 230gr bonded loads. In slower velocity loads(under 850fps) its penetration through auto materials is lacking. We run Win RB 230gr and it runs in the range of 890fps out of a Sig P220 and it does great. There is something very satisfying about recovering intact, quarter sized expanded projectiles.

However, I would agree with Doc that the .40S&W does indeed make for the ideal caliber to use in and around vehicles. Kinda like the .45acp though, you have to select a firearm that tames the recoil enough to make for more controllable shooting characteristics. The Sig P229 and S&W M&P come to mind.

Impressive report. Thanks much!

[JHC]

I love my .40 single stack. I have 10 round magazines that fit the "box". Therefore I can look at a match and decide if I want to shoot major or minor power factor. All I need is two different kinds of ammo. You don't get that option with a 9mm or .45.

Also, for shooting minor, I don't get the slide lock nose dives that can occur with a 9mm.

I've heard it opined by someone way more gun plumbing savvy than I that the .40 is dimensionally optimal for the 1911. IDK, but interesting.

How does the .40 recoil in a single stack compare to .45 and 9mm?

[Bucky]

I've heard it opined by someone way more gun plumbing savvy than I that the .40 is dimensionally optimal for the 1911. IDK, but interesting.

How does the .40 recoil in a single stack compare to .45 and 9mm?

What's nice about the .40 is if you reload, you can load long and use 10mm magazines, no spacers in the mags. In fact, I believe the "box" fit mags only come in 10mm. Shooting minor in a 1911, either 9mm or .40 is so ridiculously soft, it's hard to tell 1 from the other. In major, I feel the .40 is back on target quicker with the .40.

Since I've gone .40 for single stack, and converted my open gun to 9mm, I can cover the majority of my shooting with 9mm and .40 now. :)

[JonInWA]

Doc has stated this over the years, even in recent years with the modernization of 9mm JHPs. I myself have shot up a number of cars during training and when we have recovered bullets the .40s always look the best. I'm not an engineer, but I think it is because of the caliber size itself, along with a short bullet ogive. This allows the expansing petals to retain a lot of thickness and are thus more durable. Another interesting observation(I wish I had taken pictures) is that when passing through a car door the 9mm wants to expand with its long bullet ogive and the recovered bullet tends to shed at least some of its petals. The .40 bullet is so durable that it either retains all of its petals, or the front of the JHP gets pushed inward resulting in the bullet expanding from the pushed in petals. In short, the .40 penetrates great and comes out fully intact........the 9mm penetrates decently, but comes out mangled. We even used the newer Speer 147gr G2s.

As for the .45acp, it does pretty well when you use higher velocity 230gr bonded loads. In slower velocity loads(under 850fps) its penetration through auto materials is lacking. We run Win RB 230gr and it runs in the range of 890fps out of a Sig P220 and it does great. There is something very satisfying about recovering intact, quarter sized expanded projectiles.

However, I would agree with Doc that the .40S&W does indeed make for the ideal caliber to use in and around vehicles. Kinda like the .45acp though, you have to select a firearm that tames the recoil enough to make for more controllable shooting characteristics. The Sig P229 and S&W M&P come to mind.

Great summation and analysis. My personal preferences for .40 platforms that adequately control/dissipate recoil, are accurate, reliable/durable, ergonomic and size/weight efficient are HKs (P30L and VP40) and Glock Gen4 G22.

Best, Jon

[peterb]

Does anyone have experience with loading .40 down to 9mm muzzle energy levels and using a lighter recoil spring?

Given how easy it is to swap recoil spring assemblies in many modern pistols, I'd think there might be a market out there for a .40 load that was too light for a standard setup.

But given the chances for a mixup in either direction and annoyance from customers who don't read labels, the liability risk probably isn't worth it.

[pblanc]

Supply and demand. Seems like the ammo manufacturers, distributers, on line stores etc. are selling 40S&W at low price points. Once they reduce their inventory - how often will they make 40S&W manufacturing runs versus 9mm or other more popular calibers. As they make less, cost per unit goes up as you lose volume. Why does 10mm cost more than 40 - just a slightly longer case, little bit more powder.

Yes, I am aware of the law of supply and demand. The decline in cost for .40 S&W ammunition has actually been going on for some time and not just within the last 6 months or a year. It is clear that the heyday for .40 S&W is past and it is possible that ammunition prices will increase in the future if the demand for it falls. It is also possible that with all the people apparently going from .40 S&W to 9mm, and all the new shooters choosing 9mm that the demand for that caliber will outstrip supply and the cost will increase as a result. It may also be the case that with a high demand for 9mm ammunition the next ammo scare will result in it becoming completely unavailable while .40 S&W is still to be had, just as has happened in the past.

I can't predict what will happen in the future with ammunition cost and availability for any caliber, but I am pretty confident that .40 S&W ammunition is not going to disappear, as some here seem to be suggesting. Heck, I can still find .45 GAP ammo on the shelves where I live.

[Bucky]

Seems to be a lot of jumping the gun here. .40 is still a very widely used caliber for LE. Not everyone is jumping ship, at least not yet.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Seems to be a lot of jumping the gun here. .40 is still a very widely used caliber for LE. Not everyone is jumping ship, at least not yet.

This times a million, this alone is likely why the round has continued to get cheaper... market economics could only explain it as being more popular now from a rounds purchased standpoint. Sure, there are less civilian consumers buying .40 pistols... but the LE market is still dominated by .40, they just don't buy new guns that often.

[JBP55]

The LEA pistol market is tiny compared to the total pistol market and the LEA market for .40 caliber pistols is shrinking.

[dwcopple]

If I were to add a .40cal, it'd be a pistol that was designed for the caliber. In my case, I'd chose a Steyr M or S 40 A1.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwSZE1-Psbc

[Nephrology]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwSZE1-Psbc

I got exactly 3 seconds into that but the music was so terrible and my natural dislike of James Yeager so strong that I closed it.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I got exactly 3 seconds into that but the music was so terrible and my natural dislike of James Yeager so strong that I closed it.

Yeah, this came up on my youtube homepage just now and I figured it might add some much needed derp to the discussion.

[LockedBreech]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwSZE1-Psbc

The fourth law of physics is that everything James Yeager says is laughable nonsense. Even the truth, once said by James Yeager, becomes laughable nonsense. God forbid he ever endorse the law of gravity, or we'd all fly into space.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

What's nice about the .40 is if you reload, you can load long and use 10mm magazines, no spacers in the mags. In fact, I believe the "box" fit mags only come in 10mm. Shooting minor in a 1911, either 9mm or .40 is so ridiculously soft, it's hard to tell 1 from the other. In major, I feel the .40 is back on target quicker with the .40.

Since I've gone .40 for single stack, and converted my open gun to 9mm, I can cover the majority of my shooting with 9mm and .40 now. :)

Ohhh. Oh my. My next 1911.

[pblanc]

I have a recurring nightmare in which I go to prison and wind up in a cell with James Yeager.

[GardoneVT]

IMO the biggest reason for the decline in .40 is CCW.

Pocket and concealable pistols are the fastest growing category of guns sold. A small 9mm handgun is still enjoyable enough to take to the range.Running full power .40 through a G19 or smaller gun is not fun,especially in classes.

[GyroF-16]

Glocks; especially Gen 3/2.

And Beretta 96

[Bucky]

The fourth law of physics is that everything James Yeager says is laughable nonsense. Even the truth, once said by James Yeager, becomes laughable nonsense. God forbid he ever endorse the law of gravity, or we'd all fly into space.


SPOT ON!!

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

Does anyone have experience with loading .40 down to 9mm muzzle energy levels and using a lighter recoil spring?

My Beretta 96D is running the lightest Wolff recoil spring. The loads for it use Trail Boss and are segregated from my standard 40 S&W. It runs fine but doesn't quite have enough oomph to shove the slide far back enough for the slide lock to work when empty. I need to make a new powder scoop for my home-cast bullets and make sure they will run it before trying a lighter hammer spring to see if I can get it cycling fully with bonus even nicer trigger.

That said, they run the same stock recoil springs as the 92 and can be reliably loaded fairly light out of the box. I also run a light 155 grain LSWC load in my full-size USP now and then and it eats them right up.

[Jeep]

There is nothing wrong with the .40 for service-sized guns. As Gardone says, it isn't a great CCW round, and it also tends to punish guns designed originally for the 9mm. But it is reasonably hard hitting, accurate and affordable. Although I agree with the move to the 9mm generally, for folks who can shoot decently the .40 can be a better choice than the 9 (though, of course, it depends on the circumstances).

For people just learning to shoot, or who get ammo allowances of 50-100 rounds per year, the .40 isn't a real good idea.

[Screwball]

That said, they run the same stock recoil springs as the 92 and can be reliably loaded fairly light out of the box.

That is correct... full size 92/96 pistols use the same spring. Compact guns, like the Centurion, use a slightly heavier one.

I converted my 92 Brigadier Inox over to .40 using a 96G Centurion slide. Got it on eBay years back. With the old 92/96 design, standard .40 does beat the heck out of the guns. I believe with regular maintenance, 96s were getting a life under 100,000 rounds (Beretta testing), which is a lot, but not when the 92 would still keep going. The 90-Two, and then the 96A1 designed the gun around that caliber, which is why they dropped it for a little bit.

For me, I went with the M&Ps for the .40 platform. Been very happy with them.

[HopetonBrown]

It may also be the case that with a high demand for 9mm ammunition the next ammo scare will result in it becoming completely unavailable while .40 S&W is still to be had, just as has happened in the past.



If you were Walmart and product A sat on the shelf while products B and C were constantly out of stock, would you continue to order it in the same numbers? And if you were an ammo manufacturer and your largest civilian buyer was ordering less product A, would you continue to make it in the same quantities?

[Velo Dog]

Just did a Walmart.com search

Federal Champion FMJ 9mm $18.97 box of 100
Federal Champion FMJ 40 S&W $32.37 box of 100

[Bigghoss]

I will admit that I have been giving a lot of thought to a Gen 4 G22 from Recoil gun works for $350 or a $300 M&P40 trade in. I took some pistols to the range today and I shot my M&P45 better than either my .40 or .45 Glocks. But the Glocks were gen 2 and 3 respectively. I'd probably shoot the M&P better but I already have all the gear for the Glock. I should just buy both.

[Patrick Taylor]

Just looked up brass case FMJ by the 1000 with one of the online ammo sites.....9mm $173.....40SW $199......45acp $233. Brass prices have gone up on the 357Sig but not long ago this round was the cheapest if reloaded , cheap brass and 9mm bullets.

Edit....I was also in a Rangemaster class with Yeager once. The sights fell off his pistol during the 2 day course.

[Duelist]

Just looked up brass case FMJ by the 1000 with one of the online ammo sites.....9mm $173.....40SW $199......45acp $233. Brass prices have gone up on the 357Sig but not long ago this round was the cheapest if reloaded , cheap brass and 9mm bullets.

Edit....I was also in a Rangemaster class with Yeager once. The sights fell off his pistol during the 2 day course.

Did he have a spare gun?

[andre3k]

For me, I went with the M&Ps for the .40 platform. Been very happy with them.

The M&P 40's for whatever reason are selling cheaper than the Glock 22/23's that are flooding the market. They are probably the best bang for your buck deal going right now IMO. I've seen them going for 265 -300 range if you catch a decent sale. I have my FFL and am on the email list for Keislers which takes in a ton of LE trades. 90% of their used gun list they send to dealers are 40 S&W with Sig 226/229's probably being the worst seller. Last email they sent was probably close to a thousand in stock and many were DAK triggers. I cant see them offloading them until they start pricing them inline with the polymer framed pd trade in's.

In 20 years the classic sigs will be like S&W revolvers are now. Probably not just Sigs but any full size metal frame duty weapon.

[Corey]

At the Cabela's I inhabit on weekends new .40 caliber pistols still sell reasonably well. Of near as well as a few years ago, but well enough. WRT used .40's regardless of brand or model or condition, if it isn't less than $300 it is going to have a few birthday parties in the display case.

[Patrick Taylor]

Did he have a spare gun?

He said he was testing the pistol and would leave the line to work on it at his truck. He also said bad ammo caused his problems???? If he did not treat people on his forum the way he did for the same things I would have not paid any attention. I took one class at his place and that was enough.

[spinmove_]

Just looked up brass case FMJ by the 1000 with one of the online ammo sites.....9mm $173.....40SW $199......45acp $233. Brass prices have gone up on the 357Sig but not long ago this round was the cheapest if reloaded , cheap brass and 9mm bullets.

Edit....I was also in a Rangemaster class with Yeager once. The sights fell off his pistol during the 2 day course.

That's poetically hilarious because if you've ever watched his XS Big Dots sight installation video, you'd know that he literally slathers a semi-truck load of red loctite all over those sights so that they don't do that.


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[jeep45238]

Does anyone have experience with loading .40 down to 9mm muzzle energy levels and using a lighter recoil spring?

My experience is that 135 grain handloads are remarkably soft shooting. I think that it's because the bullet weight is on par with a 9mm, but has a larger area to push against (10mm), so for the same velocity you'll get less of a pressure spike due to the increased case volume and area of the bullet base.

I'm probably off on the physics of it, but I really, really like 135 grain .40's.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

That's poetically hilarious because if you've ever watched his XS Big Dots sight installation video, you'd know that he literally slathers a semi-truck load of red loctite all over those sights so that they don't do that.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Red Loctite is for fasteners only, not press fit assemblies...

[spinmove_]

Red Loctite is for fasteners only, not press fit assemblies...

Tell James Yeager that. He's the dude putting red loctite on threads, sight bases, on top of screws in the screw holes, around the sights in the dovetails, and every other conceivable surface you can think of.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[GunRacer]

I was in the market for a factory .40 1911 for USPSA SS. The usual go-to was the STI Trojan... to my horror the .40 Trojans were discontinued this year. You know the .40 market is taking a hit when STI can't justify producing the most popular factory .40 1911 in practical shooting. Dan Wesson dropped their .40 1911s. Neither Springfield nor Colt currently make a .40 1911.

I ended up with a Sig Max 1911 .40, which is actually a pretty solid pistol out of the box. It's really the only suitable factory option-- short of dropping the dough for a custom gun. I run it with Wilson 10mm mags.

Now I'm going to deactivate the grip safety and bitch that the P320 isn't drop safe ;)

[GunRacer]

Double Tap

[Bucky]

My experience is that 135 grain handloads are remarkably soft shooting. I think that it's because the bullet weight is on par with a 9mm, but has a larger area to push against (10mm), so for the same velocity you'll get less of a pressure spike due to the increased case volume and area of the bullet base.

I'm probably off on the physics of it, but I really, really like 135 grain .40's.

While I admittedly never tried 135 grain loads, I loaded minor .40 in various powders using 155, 165, and 180. I found the 180 to be the softest.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Tell James Yeager that. He's the dude putting red loctite on threads, sight bases, on top of screws in the screw holes, around the sights in the dovetails, and every other conceivable surface you can think of.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

He applies the red loctite to the dovetail and around the rear sight of the XS rear on Glocks, as prescribed by the manufacturer (they include red loctite with their product). He uses blue loctite (the stick version...high viscosity type). And I've been on the range in enough classes to see the value of loctite...I make good money and yet I don't make enough money to drop optics in the dirt like some folks do!


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[Gio]

Link:

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/Hornady-LE-Military-Application-Guide.pdf

One of the major issues with manufacturer supplied data is they don't provide the standard deviations of their testing, only the avg. Something may avg 13" of penetration through a certain intermediate barrier, but when the standard deviation is +/- 2", there are a significant number of rounds that don't meet the desired minimum 12".

[45dotACP]

It's hilarious that I can walk right past a M&P for 339 bucks just because it's a .40 caliber and not give a shit when brand new 21 years old 45dotACP would have loved to get that price on any gun.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

He applies the red loctite to the dovetail and around the rear sight of the XS rear on Glocks, as prescribed by the manufacturer (they include red loctite with their product). He uses blue loctite (the stick version...high viscosity type). And I've been on the range in enough classes to see the value of loctite...I make good money and yet I don't make enough money to drop optics in the dirt like some folks do!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you are told to use loctite on the dovetails by the manufacturer, the sights dovetails are undersized.. they likely claim no gunsmithing required also. Reality is those sights are horribly undersized on most peoples dovetails, to allow them to fit on most pistols.

Which means they fall out... rather easily... as James Yeager found out (loctited or not). If they are going to recommend loctiting dovetails, they could have at least recommended the correct Loctite grade for intended application (not red).

Sights must start out oversized, where they cannot be hammered into place without beating on them or resorting to sight pushers.... then filed in just the right places to allow for a very tight fit that doesn't loosen over time and can be drifted to sight in.

The only place for loctite on a properly fitted rear sight is a small amount on the set screw after the sight has been verified zero, just to keep the screw from vibrating loose.

FWIW, don't take this to mean XS sucks... I'm sure other companies do things like this too. I believe Heinie cuts theirs to fit similarly, have also heard people having these fly off in use.

Simply a by product I am sure of people expecting the sights to just slide right in without gunsmithing. People can't be bother to pay somebody qualified to fit sights anymore it seems...

[Velo Dog]

20125
640 is a red Loctite for press fit application

[Sherman A. House DDS]

If you are told to use loctite on the dovetails by the manufacturer, the sights dovetails are undersized.. they likely claim no gunsmithing required also. Reality is those sights are horribly undersized on most peoples dovetails, to allow them to fit on most pistols.

Which means they fall out... rather easily... as James Yeager found out (loctited or not). If they are going to recommend loctiting dovetails, they could have at least recommended the correct Loctite grade for intended application (not red).

Sights must start out oversized, where they cannot be hammered into place without beating on them or resorting to sight pushers.... then filed in just the right places to allow for a very tight fit that doesn't loosen over time and can be drifted to sight in.

The only place for loctite on a properly fitted rear sight is a small amount on the set screw after the sight has been verified zero, just to keep the screw from vibrating loose.

FWIW, don't take this to mean XS sucks... I'm sure other companies do things like this too. I believe Heinie cuts theirs to fit similarly, have also heard people having these fly off in use.

Simply a by product I am sure of people expecting the sights to just slide right in without gunsmithing. People can't be bother to pay somebody qualified to fit sights anymore it seems...

I agree! And they are grossly undersized for the Glock dovetail (the XS that is). The idea being, that you insert them, tighten the set screws, and then loctite them to essentially, "glue," them into place. I don't know what the part number is for the loctite, but it is red, and it is included in the package. I've had a bunch of XS products for Glocks and Shield separate (the dot from the front sight) under hard use, and thus I don't use them anymore.

(I meant to type in my previous post that he uses high viscosity blue loctite stick on optic mounts...forgive my omission please).

I've never had any issue with Heinies, but mine are all older, and were installed by Richard himself, and I was told that they were, "crush fit." I still dig Heinies on Glocks, but I wouldn't want them UNLESS they were still crush fit.


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[Bucky]

I agree! And they are grossly undersized for the Glock dovetail (the XS that is). The idea being, that you insert them, tighten the set screws, and then loctite them to essentially, "glue," them into place. I don't know what the part number is for the loctite, but it is red, and it is included in the package. I've had a bunch of XS products for Glocks and Shield separate (the dot from the front sight) under hard use, and thus I don't use them anymore.


That interesting about XS. I got a set of XS night sights for my XD .45 Compact, and they went in mega-tight.

[Velo Dog]

Disregard my last post. Most Loctite retaining compounds are a green liquid.

[Tamara]

And Beretta 96

Back in the AWB days, my roommate used to boost the ten-round mags from my Border Marshal and use them as 15 rounders in his 92.

[Lester Polfus]

Tell James Yeager that.

Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

You could try to tell Yeager something, or you could smash your balls in a car door. I'll leave it up to you to decide which would be a better use of your time.

[spinmove_]

You could try to tell Yeager something, or you could smash your balls in a car door. I'll leave it up to you to decide which would be a better use of your time.

I choose to keep both my manhood and my IQ points, thanks. I'm sure he's a nice guy in person, but he's sorely off the mark on several subjects.


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