PDA

View Full Version : Is Flite Control Always the Best Choice?



warpedcamshaft
09-12-2017, 06:49 PM
I love FLITECONTROL buckshot theoretically. Reading a lot of shotgun training AAR's has left me wondering... If your engagement distances are nearly certain to be inside of 10-12 yards... is a pattern the size of a clenched fist at that distance the best choice?

SeriousStudent
09-12-2017, 07:23 PM
I would think that if you do not live alone, it would be a good thing.

I have family and friends stay over at Rancho Serious periodically. I'd really like to be very assured I know exactly where every single one of those nine 32-caliber lead pellets flying at 1600 feet per second end up.

I am responsible for every projectile I launch. Every single one.

peterb
09-12-2017, 07:24 PM
What's your backstop?

You are responsible for every pellet you send downrange. Having them more widely scattered increases the chance of strays.

It's worth patterning different loads in your gun. In mine I found that the Remington reduced recoil produced tighter patterns than most other buckshot loads -- not as tight as Flitecontrol, but it's my first alternate.

I don't think the tight patterns of Flitecontrol are a liability at short range. Precision is good.

Artemas2
09-12-2017, 08:37 PM
Depends on what you use it for. I like about an open hand size group for a given distance when practical.

El-cheapo buck shot patterns well for in the home distances/ under 15 yards. Start pushing beyond that in outdoor environments is where FC shines.

Wondering Beard
09-13-2017, 09:46 AM
I love FLITECONTROL buckshot theoretically. Reading a lot of shotgun training AAR's has left me wondering... If your engagement distances are nearly certain to be inside of 10-12 yards... is a pattern the size of a clenched fist at that distance the best choice?

A clenched fist sized hole in a bad guy is a good thing.

warpedcamshaft
09-13-2017, 11:24 AM
Steve Fisher is who inspired my question. The direct quote regarding FLITECONTROL is: "often for home defense, it's too tight."

psalms144.1
09-13-2017, 11:41 AM
I don't believe there's such a thing as "too tight" a shot dispersion. Good COM hit is likely to immediately destroy things that will "switch off" your attacker near instantly. Peripheral hit will incapacitate whatever limb you happen to hit.

Flitecontrol seems to make buckshot a defacto slug at close ranges, and keep dispersion past "normal" shot ranges (which I consider anything past 10 yards, frankly, with "normal" buckshot, ESPECIALLY in shorter barrels) in the "I can confidently say I know where all 9 pellets are going" category.

So, yes, for me, it's Flitecontrol every time I load one of my "serious" use shotguns.

warpedcamshaft
09-13-2017, 11:52 AM
Fisher's take is 4-6 inches with consistent distribution at max distance inside your home.

psalms144.1
09-13-2017, 12:03 PM
Fisher's take is 4-6 inches with consistent distribution at max distance inside your home.Got it. I think we're counting angels on the heads of pins here, though. "Fist size group" to me (using my fist) is 3 3/4" - which, in my scientifically challenged world, is just about close enough to 4" to be "good enough." I also know at 15 yards, if I don't have time or presence of mind to swap to a slug, that Flitecontrol is still going to be in a 6-8" group.

Also depends on what your engagement ranges are. Longest range for me in the house is likely 10-12 yards, and I'm sure Flitecontrol is going to be in the 4-6" dispersion range there (patterned at 25 yards, it's about 8-10" from my M2). If the longest shot in your house is 5 yards or so, yes, Flightcontrol is likely going to act like a slug (without as much penetration, of course). I still don't see how that's a bad thing - but I'm just a no-name-guy on the Interwebz.

warpedcamshaft
09-13-2017, 12:31 PM
With the 8 pellet low recoil 00 FLITECONTROL... my pellets are still in the wad from 7-10 yards.

I'm getting about 5-6 inch spreads at 20 - 25 yards!!!

BehindBlueI's
09-13-2017, 12:32 PM
Is there some data indicating some bad guys have kept on chugging with a clenched fist sized pattern when a double-clenched fist sized pattern would have stopped them?

This strikes me as needing something to talk about more than needing to solve a real world problem.

warpedcamshaft
09-13-2017, 08:26 PM
Is there some data indicating some bad guys have kept on chugging with a clenched fist sized pattern when a double-clenched fist sized pattern would have stopped them?

This strikes me as needing something to talk about more than needing to solve a real world problem.

So... Steve Fisher is just needing something to talk about, or this thread?

I've heard him mention it several times and it ran contrary to my thought patterns... I wanted to bounce it off others and see what people thought because I'm pretty new to non-hunting shotgun applications. God forbid I try that on a firearms forum where people meet to talk about guns and ammuntion.


:p

txdpd
09-13-2017, 08:32 PM
LE Flitecontrol is an excellent choice for the quality control, brass heads on the shells, low flash powder, and the wad will keep the hull from deforming in the magazine during long term storage (years on end).

I understand that Flitecontrol and Versatite were late to the party and rifles had already started to replace shotguns in the LE world, but I doubt that I'll ever hear about buckshot failure because the pattern was too tight.

BehindBlueI's
09-13-2017, 08:33 PM
So... Steve Fisher is just needing something to talk about, or this thread?

I've heard him mention it several times and it ran contrary to my thought patterns... I wanted to bounce it off others and see what people thought because I'm pretty new to non-hunting shotgun applications. God forbid I try that on a firearms forum where people meet to talk about guns and ammuntion.


:p

The first. I've no idea who he is, mind you, but I'm not seeing tight groups of shot as a failure.

Lester Polfus
09-13-2017, 11:22 PM
LE Flitecontrol is an excellent choice for the quality control, brass heads on the shells, low flash powder, and the wad will keep the hull from deforming in the magazine during long term storage (years on end).



Honestly, all of this drives me towards it more than the super duper tight pattern.

warpedcamshaft
09-13-2017, 11:46 PM
LE Flitecontrol is an excellent choice for the quality control, brass heads on the shells, low flash powder, and the wad will keep the hull from deforming in the magazine during long term storage (years on end).

I understand that Flitecontrol and Versatite were late to the party and rifles had already started to replace shotguns in the LE world, but I doubt that I'll ever hear about buckshot failure because the pattern was too tight.

Damn good point. I've been magnet checking a lot of shotgun ammo lately with shitty shotgun chambers being common now days. Almost all commercial (for dumb-ass civilians) shot-shells are coated-steel base.

On a side note: I would like to know if the Federal PB127 DPRS shell base is magnetic? (I believe the "battery/primer cup" is almost always steel nowdays, but not the entire base)

I would also like to know if the LEB127 DPRS shell base is magnetic?

The modern "Brenneke USA" shells I have seen have all been coated-steel bases, and I've seen them shut down 2 pump-guns (870 was pounded on ground muzzle-up and fired next round, Mossberg 500 had to be pushed out of chamber with rod).

Dagga Boy
09-14-2017, 07:48 AM
This came up in my last shotgun class. The reason we spend a bit of time patterning guns is like the importance of getting a solid zero on a rifle. I want shooters to know exactly how their gun patterns their intended load and how that works with their gun and their sights. For a bead sight basically stock 18" shotgun that will only be doing bedroom bunker defense, regular buck is fine. If that gun may end up going outside, working larger residences or businesses, then controlled shot rounds make sense. As our sighting systems give more capability to place loads more surgically, it makes sense to use loads that will work with those sights. Mission drives the gear train.
For me, I like rat holes if possible. Lot of air in, fluid out, and hard to fix. I use controlled buckshot with red dots. Dot, press, large hole. As distance increases, I decrease the chances of losing pellets with controlled rounds. I like that as I have found the crooks often are controlling the distance of the fight and not you. To me, the benefits of controlled rounds outweighs and perceived negatives. I also have been using Vang Barrels for a lot of years specifically to get the performance I can now get with factory controlled shot loads in a non Vang barrel. Because I am now using a lot of semi auto's, the controlled loads help get the performance I want.

Unobtanium
09-14-2017, 09:45 AM
Damn good point. I've been magnet checking a lot of shotgun ammo lately with shitty shotgun chambers being common now days. Almost all commercial (for dumb-ass civilians) shot-shells are coated-steel base.

On a side note: I would like to know if the Federal PB127 DPRS shell base is magnetic? (I believe the "battery/primer cup" is almost always steel nowdays, but not the entire base)

I would also like to know if the LEB127 DPRS shell base is magnetic?

The modern "Brenneke USA" shells I have seen have all been coated-steel bases, and I've seen them shut down 2 pump-guns (870 was pounded on ground muzzle-up and fired next round, Mossberg 500 had to be pushed out of chamber with rod).

I'd wager it's more of a shotgun problem than a shell problem. I am astounded at how shitty the finish is on Mossberg chambers in particular. I also have thousands of shells downrange from benelli shotguns with literally zero stuck shells. I would bet it you smoothed out the chambers in shotguns that required special ammo to function, they would cease to need special ammo to function.

45dotACP
09-14-2017, 10:14 AM
No disrespect intended to Steve Fisher, but it seems like the argument that comes from people that say you should spread out your handgun hits on a target for maximum effect.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Artemas2
09-14-2017, 10:44 AM
No disrespect intended to Steve Fisher, but it seems like the argument that comes from people that say you should spread out your handgun hits on a target for maximum effect.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

The shot group size was selected in part because it offers better chance to hit a moving target or a side body shot, while also still being effective for frontal presentations and reducing the amount of stray pellets off target. (If i am remembering his lecture correctly)

( did not see this comment, what i posted above is almost the end of his sentence)

Steve Fisher is who inspired my question. The direct quote regarding FLITECONTROL is: "often for home defense, it's too tight."


If you get a one hole group, why not just use slugs or a rifle?

warpedcamshaft
09-14-2017, 10:45 AM
I'd wager it's more of a shotgun problem than a shell problem. I am astounded at how shitty the finish is on Mossberg chambers in particular. I also have thousands of shells downrange from benelli shotguns with literally zero stuck shells. I would bet it you smoothed out the chambers in shotguns that required special ammo to function, they would cease to need special ammo to function.

I bet you are right. I've tried a couple of different ways to accomplish this and it has helped.

The difference in chamber finish between new Mossbergs and my 12 year old Mossberg is astounding. The new ones are pretty awful. Remington is in about the same boat from the last sample gun I had.

Unobtanium
09-14-2017, 10:49 AM
I bet you are right. I've tried a couple of different ways to accomplish this and it has helped.

The difference in chamber finish between new Mossbergs and my 12 year old Mossberg is astounding. The new ones are pretty awful. Remington is in about the same boat from the last sample gun I had.

I have not looked in a Remington chamber made "recently", but have on Mossberg. I was astounded. For a comparison, here is the chamber of my Benelli Supernova Tactical (about the cheapest gun they make).
http://i66.tinypic.com/2q0rmuu.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/e0rb4.jpg

tanner
09-14-2017, 10:56 AM
If you get a one hole group, why not just use slugs or a rifle?

I'm far from a scientist, but watch a few deer hunting videos. If all the pellets hit with buckshot? 4 hooves in the air right there on the spot. Slugs? I see them run off a ways and then die.

My uneducated thought is that the multiple wound channels have a harder hitting effect on the nervous system than a single (although quite large) slug.

And, you get the best of both worlds, slug (or better) performance up close with shot performance at distance.

BehindBlueI's
09-14-2017, 06:08 PM
If you get a one hole group, why not just use slugs or a rifle?

I think for many the answer is to use a rifle. I think there's a trend that way in patrol cars. When I came on, shotguns were THE long gun. Today a lot of guys have turned them in and rely on the AR. I still have both, but if I had to give one up it would be the shotgun.

However, one real big hole is tough for the body to deal with, as DB points out:



For me, I like rat holes if possible. Lot of air in, fluid out, and hard to fix. I use controlled buckshot with red dots. Dot, press, large hole.

I guess I sorta-kinda-if-I-squint see the higher hit probability argument, but then you have to ask is a real big hole in a peripheral hit better than a few pellets that hit and a few that miss? I'm not seeing that as a gain, honestly.

peterb
09-14-2017, 06:29 PM
I guess I sorta-kinda-if-I-squint see the higher hit probability argument, but then you have to ask is a real big hole in a peripheral hit better than a few pellets that hit and a few that miss? I'm not seeing that as a gain, honestly.

I guess it depends on your environment. What's going to happen to the pellets that miss? Are they going out into the back 40, or into the neighbor's house?

JohnO
09-14-2017, 07:52 PM
Steve Fisher is who inspired my question. The direct quote regarding FLITECONTROL is: "often for home defense, it's too tight."

One man's opinion!

JohnO
09-14-2017, 07:57 PM
If you get a one hole group, why not just use slugs or a rifle?

Range mentality vs. real world. Just because it will make a single hole in a range target at 10 yards or less does not mean it is the same thing as a slug or a rifle round. When the "package" arrives the fun begins.

txdpd
09-15-2017, 12:55 PM
I'd wager it's more of a shotgun problem than a shell problem. I am astounded at how shitty the finish is on Mossberg chambers in particular. I also have thousands of shells downrange from benelli shotguns with literally zero stuck shells. I would bet it you smoothed out the chambers in shotguns that required special ammo to function, they would cease to need special ammo to function.

Stuck shells in chambers are a pretty common occurrence with the Nova line. Not as common as with Remington or Mossberg, and polishing up the chambers takes care of most of the stuck shell issues.

No doubt that the Italian guns are better finished than the American made pumps. I think semi autos are just better at ripping shells out of chambers than a pump gun, Mossberg and Remington semi autos have crappy chambers and don't have stuck shell issues. There's no screwing around with the semi auto, the extraction is sudden and forceful. I'm not sure there's much of a distinction if you don't have function issues, but the gun being able to deal with sticky chambers and shells not sticking are two different things.

Unobtanium
09-16-2017, 01:08 AM
Stuck shells in chambers are a pretty common occurrence with the Nova line. Not as common as with Remington or Mossberg, and polishing up the chambers takes care of most of the stuck shell issues.

No doubt that the Italian guns are better finished than the American made pumps. I think semi autos are just better at ripping shells out of chambers than a pump gun, Mossberg and Remington semi autos have crappy chambers and don't have stuck shell issues. There's no screwing around with the semi auto, the extraction is sudden and forceful. I'm not sure there's much of a distinction if you don't have function issues, but the gun being able to deal with sticky chambers and shells not sticking are two different things.

TO be fair, most of my experience is with the M4S90.

SteveB
09-17-2017, 07:03 AM
I'm sticking with DocGKR's thinking on this:

The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes.

idahojess
09-17-2017, 12:32 PM
Not sure how to properly do mentions, but Steve f is a member here. I'd be interested to read his take...

SJC3081
09-17-2017, 09:54 PM
I'm far from a scientist, but watch a few deer hunting videos. If all the pellets hit with buckshot? 4 hooves in the air right there on the spot. Slugs? I see them run off a ways and then die.

My uneducated thought is that the multiple wound channels have a harder hitting effect on the nervous system than a single (although quite large) slug.
My father and I have shot over 150 Whitetails with 12 gauge Foster slugs. Solid heart or lung shot they are down in less than thirty yards. Last year I shot a 268lb Whitetail with cheap Wallmart Winchester 2.75 one ounce at 1600fps. The deer ran 25 yards and fell.

And, you get the best of both worlds, slug (or better) performance up close with shot performance at distance.

Darth_Uno
09-17-2017, 10:22 PM
Still have to hit what you aim at. Shotguns aren't a flaming boulder of doom. In a class last year, Federal Reduced Flight from my 20" 870 was the only round/gun that kept them all on a target at 20 yards. Finally got a flyer at 25. YMMV, always test your round with your gun.

If you live in an apartment or stacked residential neighborhood, any missed pellets are sailing on to who knows where. Course if you live there, most shots are probably 10 yds max anyway.

NH Shooter
09-18-2017, 05:42 AM
As already stated, I'm also of the opinion that too wide a pattern is more an issue than too tight.

Due to living on a heavily wooded/sloping lot, the shotgun fills a self defense niche that can extend beyond the exterior walls of my house to the line-of-sight limits of a shot I might take from its immediate perimeter. The FC load allows me to do that without resorting to slugs or a carbine.

Hambo
09-18-2017, 05:59 AM
Steve Fisher is who inspired my question. The direct quote regarding FLITECONTROL is: "often for home defense, it's too tight."

Who is Steve Fisher?

If I hit a bird on the sporting clays course with one piece of shot it's a hit just the same as it I vaporized it. As a buckshot pattern expands at best you're putting buck into non-vital areas. In a fight that doesn't count like it does on the clays range. If your hit wasn't centered you might put a couple pieces of shot into a vital area, but it's hardly optimal. At worst you're sending misses somewhere you may not want them to go. Going back to clays, when you pattern loads you're looking for consistency of pattern at a certain distance. Using regular 00 I've never had consistent patterns. On one shot the buck was evenly dispersed, on the next it was loaded to one or two quadrants. With 3" 4 buck the pattern looked more like a pattern, but a lot of the hits would be to non-vital areas.

I don't have long distance shots in my house, but I have a lot of glass and neighbors, so I use FC. I would also suggest that anyone who hasn't should read up on patterning and shot strings.

GJM
09-18-2017, 10:03 AM
Louis Awerbuck made the same point, but at the time he was referring to Vang Comp'd barrels. His words being you want some spread with a shotgun or else you might as well just shoot a slug.

BehindBlueI's
09-18-2017, 10:55 AM
Louis Awerbuck made the same point, but at the time he was referring to Vang Comp'd barrels. His words being you want some spread with a shotgun or else you might as well just shoot a slug.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4340-12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-LE-duty-use


buckshot...have less ricochet risk than shotgun slugs


buckshot is less likely to pose as high a downrange hazard as slugs in the event a missed shot exits a structure wall

Also note when both over penetration AND the need to defeat intermediate barriers are present...


The new Federal (PB127 DPRS) Truball Deep Penetrator...penetrated 24" of gel after first defeating an automobile windshield


Federal #1 buckshot... "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrate in the 14-18 inch range. ...
Through an automobile windshield at 3 meters, 2 badly deformed pellets were noted at 5", 3 pellets were at 8-9", while the remaining 10 pellets were found at 12.5-15"

So I'd say there's still some difference in slug vs buck shot that may matter, particularly in urban areas.

Nephrology
09-18-2017, 10:55 AM
My uneducated thought is that the multiple wound channels have a harder hitting effect on the nervous system than a single (although quite large) slug.

There isn't really a physiologic basis for this.

At best a wider pattern means you might hit vital something your (poorly placed) slug would have missed. This seems to me a fairly small concern. If it's still a problem, just shoot it again. I struggle to imagine that scenario anatomically.

For whatever it's worth, all the GSW cases I have seen have been handgun caliber injuries.

tanner
09-18-2017, 11:58 AM
I didn't even call it a theory, I left it at uneducated thought! ;)

I guess I should have said it was more of an observation. I'll just chalk it up to dark voodoo magic. lol

That Guy
09-18-2017, 01:37 PM
There isn't really a physiologic basis for this.


Didn't DocGKR write something about multiple simultaneous pellet impacts causing the kind of tissue tearing that you normally don't see with individual impacts of similar projectiles?

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

Nephrology
09-18-2017, 02:27 PM
Didn't DocGKR write something about multiple simultaneous pellet impacts causing the kind of tissue tearing that you normally don't see with individual impacts of similar projectiles?

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

I'm not sure if that sounds familiar to me. In terms of vital anatomy, let's use this as our reference. For scale, the human heart is roughly the length/width of your open hand.

https://i.imgur.com/PKHHmiN.png

As you can see, basically everything in the chest is highly vascular. If you throw a projectile into the top of the chest - especially a 1oz slug - you are going to put someone in a world of hurt.

While it is conceivable that a wider spread might put a 00 pellet into the heart where a slug or tight shot pattern might pass right by, but remember:

1) everything in that area is extremely fragile (pulm A/V/hilar structures, aortic root, thoracic aorta)
2) as pellets spread and impact individually, they quickly lose momentum because of their rounded shape. A round, slow-moving, soft (lead) projectile is far less likely to penetrate a hard, bony structure like the ribs than something else with greater momentum.

I have never seen anyone who has been shot in the chest not go to the OR - even with just a handgun. Basically, I really don't think having a "wide enough" spread is something to worry about. If all 9 pellets of 00 buck connect with the head or torso, your target is not likely long for this world, no matter how tight the spread is or not.

To qualify, I am still very junior in my training, but I've seen probably somewhere around a few dozen GSWs. Always open to correction from others who have a bigger piece of the puzzle.


I didn't even call it a theory, I left it at uneducated thought! ;)

I guess I should have said it was more of an observation. I'll just chalk it up to dark voodoo magic. lol

No worries, and I hope my reply wasn't too rude or dismissive. There are lots of ideas out there and I think most all of them are worth considering. Only adding my piece of the puzzle

Kyle Reese
09-18-2017, 03:13 PM
Meh. I'll stick with cycling an empty action to scare baddies away, and if that doesn't work, bird loads will do the trick.

*joking*

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

tanner
09-18-2017, 06:58 PM
No worries, and I hope my reply wasn't too rude or dismissive. There are lots of ideas out there and I think most all of them are worth considering. Only adding my piece of the puzzle

Not at all sir, I was just clarifying both my lack of scientific knowledge in the matter as well as my lack of confidence in my conclusion! :D

DocGKR
09-19-2017, 01:21 PM
Slugs are fantastic and offer similar ballistics to old time Civil War era musket balls; however, plan on the projectile exiting the target.

When using multi-shot 12 ga. ammunition, no other shotgun load we have tested has surpassed the Federal Flight Control #1 buckshot load in terms of tissue trauma and ideal penetration range.

Doc_Glock
09-19-2017, 01:33 PM
Slugs are fantastic and offer similar ballistics to old time Civil War era musket balls; however, plan on the projectile exiting the target.

I had no idea musket balls were that potent!

DocGKR
09-19-2017, 02:31 PM
Big 60-70 cal holes with high mass projectiles which crush through bone...

Steve f
10-01-2017, 01:24 PM
correct it is and also that has been tested on movers movers in low light and while moving on movers
and having some spread isn't a bad thing and by spread i mean max distance for most peoples roll as a home gun
and having apex 4-5 inch spread at that distance as being acceptable
not everyone needs flight control

One man's opinion!

Unobtanium
10-01-2017, 09:03 PM
Slugs are fantastic and offer similar ballistics to old time Civil War era musket balls; however, plan on the projectile exiting the target.

When using multi-shot 12 ga. ammunition, no other shotgun load we have tested has surpassed the Federal Flight Control #1 buckshot load in terms of tissue trauma and ideal penetration range.

Don't most slugs frag badly? I have no lab, but only brenneke and remington sluggers have made it through more than 3 jugs of water. 75gr gold dot did 4 and into the 5th. Sluggers and brenneke hold togather and penetrate. Federal and winchester frag. Gel tests mirror mine, with the truball slugs failing fbi minimum standards in bare gel. Part of why I love remington slugs. 1 hole groups at 50 yards, and they hold together.

peterb
10-02-2017, 05:53 AM
Don't most slugs frag badly? I have no lab, but only brenneke and remington sluggers have made it through more than 3 jugs of water. 75gr gold dot did 4 and into the 5th. Sluggers and brenneke hold togather and penetrate. Federal and winchester frag. Gel tests mirror mine, with the truball slugs failing fbi minimum standards in bare gel. Part of why I love remington slugs. 1 hole groups at 50 yards, and they hold together.

The Truball Deep Penetrating load LEB127 DPRS will hold together better than the standard Truball.

Unobtanium
10-02-2017, 06:01 AM
The Truball Deep Penetrating load LEB127 DPRS will hold together better than the standard Truball.

Right, no expansion though. Brenneke seems the best of all worlds. No secondary projectiles, good expansion, good penetration. I'm just put off by docgkr saying it's loaded by a shitty 3rd party, as I understand?

GJM
10-02-2017, 07:10 AM
Right, no expansion though. Brenneke seems the best of all worlds. No secondary projectiles, good expansion, good penetration. I'm just put off by docgkr saying it's loaded by a shitty 3rd party, as I understand?

Can you provide a link to this?

Unobtanium
10-02-2017, 07:50 AM
Can you provide a link to this?

https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-1566.html

You were there.

GJM
10-02-2017, 08:02 AM
I don't know what to say. I have been using Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs for about 25 years, and continue to buy them. I can't tell any difference betweeen the ones from the 90's and the current ones, except they are more expensive and the packaging graphic has changed. Every time I looked, they all said "made in Germany," so unless Brenneke was fudging the labeling not sure about the Russia or Serbia manufacture thing.

DocGKR
10-02-2017, 11:04 AM
Current Brenneke's seem to be good to go. We like the 1 oz ones...

Unobtanium
10-02-2017, 04:04 PM
Current Brenneke's seem to be good to go. We like the 1 oz ones...

Can you be more specific?

RevolverRob
10-02-2017, 06:35 PM
Louis Awerbuck made the same point, but at the time he was referring to Vang Comp'd barrels. His words being you want some spread with a shotgun or else you might as well just shoot a slug.

Remember too that Awerbuck's initial experience in using shotguns was for guerrilla shooting in Rhodesia. In combat scenarios (not defensive scenarios). Hitting a combatant with one pellet is as good as hitting them with 9 - in the context of injuring your opponents (obviously mo' is better for killing, but one pellet hitting still damages your opponents).

In terms of shooting someone at minute of front yard - I'd rather have a baseball sized load of buck slamming into the target I aimed out, than a basketball sized one. Buckshot works, not because of spread, but because of velocity, projectile weight, projectile caliber, and number of projectiles delivered simultaneously.




While it is conceivable that a wider spread might put a 00 pellet into the heart where a slug or tight shot pattern might pass right by, but remember:

1) everything in that area is extremely fragile (pulm A/V/hilar structures, aortic root, thoracic aorta)
2) as pellets spread and impact individually, they quickly lose momentum because of their rounded shape. A round, slow-moving, soft (lead) projectile is far less likely to penetrate a hard, bony structure like the ribs than something else with greater momentum.

I have never seen anyone who has been shot in the chest not go to the OR - even with just a handgun. Basically, I really don't think having a "wide enough" spread is something to worry about. If all 9 pellets of 00 buck connect with the head or torso, your target is not likely long for this world, no matter how tight the spread is or not.

Pretty much this^^^ You've seen far more gunshot victims than I have, I'm sure. But I've cut up enough humans and animals to know something about anatomy. Humans, in particular, pack many of their vital organs in the center of their torso. Putting projectiles of any type, with sufficient velocity and mass to penetrate tissue, is usually good 'nuff to end them. Expanding handgun rounds, yawing/expanding rifle rounds, and buckshot, tend to deliver most of the potential energy they carry into whatever they hit, if it's soft enough. Humans are plenty soft and squishy.

Now, I've cut up, a Komodo Dragon, a Rhino, and several alligators before and those are animals you do not shoot with ammo meant for soft and squishy things. When you've got a dead one that has been bled out and is on the table and you still need a fucking sawzall to cut it up? That's not an animal you shoot with little bang-bangs; you hit them with the biggest, solidest, fastest, bullets you can. But the average human male weighs maybe as much as a single rhino leg and isn't wearing bony armor on its skin like a Komodo or 'gator (likely).

GJM
10-02-2017, 08:06 PM
Remember too that Awerbuck's initial experience in using shotguns was for guerrilla shooting in Rhodesia. In combat scenarios (not defensive scenarios). Hitting a combatant with one pellet is as good as hitting them with 9 - in the context of injuring your opponents (obviously mo' is better for killing, but one pellet hitting still damages your opponents).

In terms of shooting someone at minute of front yard - I'd rather have a baseball sized load of buck slamming into the target I aimed out, than a basketball sized one. Buckshot works, not because of spread, but because of velocity, projectile weight, projectile caliber, and number of projectiles delivered simultaneously.



Pretty much this^^^ You've seen far more gunshot victims than I have, I'm sure. But I've cut up enough humans and animals to know something about anatomy. Humans, in particular, pack many of their vital organs in the center of their torso. Putting projectiles of any type, with sufficient velocity and mass to penetrate tissue, is usually good 'nuff to end them. Expanding handgun rounds, yawing/expanding rifle rounds, and buckshot, tend to deliver most of the potential energy they carry into whatever they hit, if it's soft enough. Humans are plenty soft and squishy.

Now, I've cut up, a Komodo Dragon, a Rhino, and several alligators before and those are animals you do not shoot with ammo meant for soft and squishy things. When you've got a dead one that has been bled out and is on the table and you still need a fucking sawzall to cut it up? That's not an animal you shoot with little bang-bangs; you hit them with the biggest, solidest, fastest, bullets you can. But the average human male weighs maybe as much as a single rhino leg and isn't wearing bony armor on its skin like a Komodo or 'gator (likely).

Have you taken a course with Louis, or spent any time with him?

David S.
10-02-2017, 08:48 PM
The Truball Deep Penetrating load LEB127 DPRS will hold together better than the standard Truball.

Wait, are we not doing "Phrasing" anymore?

RevolverRob
10-02-2017, 09:55 PM
Have you taken a course with Louis, or spent any time with him?

Is there a context to Awerbuck's quote that I missed?

But I do realized I made a mistake! I mixed up the Rhodesian Bush War with the South African Border War. I realized this when I realized that Awerbuck's service was with the South African Army (1st Special Services Battalion) not the Rhodesian SAS.

GJM
10-02-2017, 11:07 PM
Louis Awerbuck was an incredibly gifted instructor, and a larger than life character. His accent only enhanced his presentation.

I took multiple shotgun classes with him. In one, guys were comparing ten yard patterns from their Vang modified barrels, boasting as to which pattern was smallest. The smallest looked about like a slug. Louis announced that the reason for shooting buck and not slugs was to get some spread, and make the hitting part easier. His comments had nothing to do with wounding people in Africa.

RevolverRob
10-02-2017, 11:22 PM
I took multiple shotgun classes with him. In one, guys were comparing ten yard patterns from their Vang modified barrels, boasting as to which pattern was smallest. The smallest looked about like a slug. Louis announced that the reason for shooting buck and not slugs was to get some spread, and make the hitting part easier.

I'm not sure I agree with his assessment. In this case, unless you're to take it that hitting someone with some buck is better than missing them with all of it. See my point?

In my, relatively uninformed opinion, the reason we shoot buckshot over slugs at close range has more to do with over-penetration than it does spread. Buckshot is extremely effective as close range, once it spreads out it becomes increasingly less effective, we know this, because physics. At <25 yards, a shotgun delivers, simultaneously, the equivalent of multiple handgun rounds into a moderate grouping size and as it delivers that energy it leaves it virtually entirely within a soft target.

In essence, I think of buckshot patterns like I do handgun groupings. I want ~2" group size at 25 yards with a handgun, when shooting, I'll accept 4-6" as "okay". Buckshot is the same way, you're delivering multiple handgun bullet sized projectiles simultaneously, I still want them to go where I want. Accurate is better, in the case of a shotgun with buckshot, to guarantee accurate, tighter patterns are generally better.

BUT - I could be wrong - I know Louis Awerbuck easily forgot more about shooting shotguns than I've ever known.

ETA: Thinking further. I suppose I can see the idea that its easier to hit a target with a fist than it is to hit it with a pebble. - But simultaneously, one must hit the target, right? And if the fist and pebble have the same mass and same energy which is more effective on target the fist or the pebble?


His comments had nothing to do with wounding people in Africa.

Fair enough.

txdpd
10-06-2017, 03:29 PM
I would also like to know if the LEB127 DPRS shell base is magnetic?



It's brass. I ground the head of one down from the side to the primer cup and it's brass all the way through.