H&K will no longer sell arms to several nations

[Amp]

This probably has more to do with German export laws than a corporate decision by HK:

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/09/12/heckler-koch-no-guns-israel/?utm_source=1911forum.com&utm_medium=RSS+Feed&utm_campaign=RSS+Feed

[GCBHM]

Maybe. Either way, it's really of no consequence. They ought to be free to do as they please.


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[Peally]

Ideally it's more retarded German laws. It's pretty hypocritical if it's an HK decision.

[Amp]

From The Guardian:

Heckler & Koch, whose weapons have killed 2 million people, vows to end sales to warzones and countries falling short of corruption and democracy standards:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/sep/08/germany-deadliest-company-stop-selling-guns-crisis-regions-heckler-and-koch

[alohadoug]

I suspect that it was more about German prosecutors and laws. One of the prosecutors (a "Green" party iirc) went after SIG because SIG pistols turned up in Colombia. Turns out SIG USA (not SIG in Germany) sold them to the US DoD who then transferred them to Colombia in a Foreign Military Sale. Prosecutors didn't care. H&K made a deal with Mexico for G36 but the German government scuttled that one. Some German rights groups (Women's Rights, LGBT rights, etc) threw a public fit because H&K struck a huge deal with Saudi Arabia on the same trip when the King refused to meet with Merkel because she wouldn't cover her head (their house, their rules...she did cover her head when meeting with Pope).

It's all about politics and staying out of trouble with law (politicians).

[Peally]

From The Guardian:

Heckler & Koch, whose weapons have killed 2 million people, vows to end sales to warzones and countries falling short of corruption and democracy standards:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/sep/08/germany-deadliest-company-stop-selling-guns-crisis-regions-heckler-and-koch

The part they miss is how many of those 2 million people are a net gain being dead.

[JHC]

From The Guardian:

Heckler & Koch, whose weapons have killed 2 million people, [/url]

Pshaw! Pikers.


But seriously. Israel? That's messed up.

[Amp]

This gem was also in the Guardian article:

There are an estimated 15 million of the firm’s G3 rifles in circulation alone, and Grässlin has estimated that one person gets killed by a Heckler & Koch bullet every 13 minutes.:rolleyes:

[okie john]

This gem was also in the Guardian article:

There are an estimated 15 million of the firm’s G3 rifles in circulation alone, and Grässlin has estimated that one person gets killed by a Heckler & Koch bullet every 13 minutes.:rolleyes:

I've estimated some crazy shit with no basis in reality, too, but it never makes the news.


Okie John

[Gray222]

Not only do they hate their customers they also hate money...

[Mjolnir]

No more firearms for Baton Rouge and New Orleans then...


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[TheNewbie]

A German company not selling guns to Israel. I'm not sure if it's ironic or not.

What fools.

[LorenzoS]

I'd be curious to see the list of acceptable countries but I suspect this is antisemitism thinly veiled as social justice just like the rest of the BDS movement.

[TheNewbie]

I'd be curious to see the list of acceptable countries but I suspect this is antisemitism thinly veiled as social justice just like the rest of the BDS movement.

Oh but Israel hatred is not Jew hatred!.....People actually believe that crap.

So you don't sell weapons to the one nation in the Middle East who gives rights to all who live there. It's the best place in the ME to be a Jew , Christian, Muslim, gay, atheist, minority, etc.. Plus they actually defend their citizens. What a mixed up world we live in..

[Peally]

Just because someone is anti-Isreal it doesn't make them a Jew hater. With that logic I hate black people because I think Somalia is a craphole.

Logic guys, logic.

[TheNewbie]

Just because someone is anti-Isreal it doesn't make them a Jew hater. With that logic I hate black people because I think Somalia is a craphole.

Logic guys, logic.

How is what you said in anyway logical?

[Peally]

How is what you said in anyway logical?

leeeeeeeeeel this fucking place sometimes...

[TheNewbie]

leeeeeeeeeel this fucking place sometimes...

So you can't defend your statement or you will not defend it?

[Peally]

So you can't defend your statement or you will not defend it?

The logic in your statement was derpy. There, I defended it. Respectfully, beyond that I don't give a crap enough to get into a pissing contest with you about it, I have video games to rot my brain with tonight and that's far more interesting.

A lot of people here think Saudi Arabia is a complete and utter shithole politically, myself definitely included. I guess I should get a "KILL ALL MUSLIMS" bumper sticker for my truck now since that's the majority that lives there.

Just because someone has illogical reasons for hating something (in this case, hating Israel because they like to kill terrorist garbage and killing is bad mm'kay) doesn't immediately mean 100% worst case Nazi-flags-get-the-Luftwaffe-rolling-Kriegsmarine-lets-sink-some-bastards scenario. Now, it definitely could, but chances are generally pretty low for the vast majority of people. Could just be they're just too lazy to form an opinion outside of their political party and they vote accordingly, as crazy as that sounds.

[BehindBlueI's]

Grässlin has estimated that one person gets killed by a Heckler & Koch bullet every 13 minutes.

That person is probably getting pretty tired of it by now.

[TheNewbie]

The logic in your statement was derpy. There, I defended it. Respectfully, beyond that I don't give a crap enough to get into a pissing contest with you about it, I have video games to rot my brain with tonight and that's far more interesting.

A lot of people here think Saudi Arabia is a complete and utter shithole politically, myself definitely included. I guess I should get a "KILL ALL MUSLIMS" bumper sticker for my truck now since that's the majority that lives there.

Just because someone has illogical reasons for hating something (in this case, hating Israel because they like to kill terrorist garbage and killing is bad mm'kay) doesn't immediately mean 100% worst case Nazi-flags-get-the-Luftwaffe-rolling-Kriegsmarine-lets-sink-some-bastards scenario. Now, it definitely could, but chances are generally pretty low for the vast majority of people. Could just be they're just too lazy to form an opinion outside of their political party and they vote accordingly, as crazy as that sounds.


Somalia is not the only country where the majority population is black. Saudis Arabia is not the only majority Muslim country. Israel is the only Jewish state, and it is specifically targeted and grouped in with true evil regimes. So your analogy is illogical.

If they hate Israel because they are too lazy to be informed, they still hate Israel.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/lefts-hatred-of-israel-is-racism-in-disguise/news-story/24360f698d721bd8503c625edbfdc342

[Joe in PNG]

That person is probably getting pretty tired of it by now.

Wonder if he owns that car that gets stolen every few minutes?

[Peally]

I sincerely doubt anyone would give a shit about Monaco if they were predominately Jewish.

[Mjolnir]

How is what you said in anyway logical?

Perhaps because I'm Black and I believe Somalia is a hellhole?

Just sayin', bro... 🤷🏽*♂️



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[TheNewbie]

I sincerely doubt anyone would give a shit about Monaco if they were predominately Jewish.

Why do you think that? History does not seem to support you.

[Peally]

Why do you think that? History does not seem to support you.

The fuckers couldn't even find it on a map, I guarantee it.

[TheNewbie]

The fuckers couldn't even find it on a map, I guarantee it.

So that's your argument? The only reason Israel is attacked is because they can find it on a map?

[Default.mp3]

The state is not the people nor the nation. I can despise the Pakistani state, but that doesn't inherently carry over any animosity toward the Pakistani people/culture. The fact that Israel is a Jewish state does not mean it is inextricable from the Jewish people.

And really, Israel doesn't have the greatest track record even with the USA. The USS Liberty incident, Jonathan Pollard, etc. all come to mind.

[TheNewbie]

The state is not the people nor the nation. I can despise the Pakistani state, but that doesn't inherently carry over any animosity toward the Pakistani people/culture. The fact that Israel is a Jewish state does not mean it is inextricable from the Jewish people.

And really, Israel doesn't have the greatest track record even with the USA. The USS Liberty incident, Jonathan Pollard, etc. all come to mind.


There is a difference between Israel criticism and Israel hatred. Grouping Israel in with evil or corrupt regimes/places and refusing to sell them weapons is not Israel criticism.

[Default.mp3]

There is a difference between Israel criticism and Israel hatred. Grouping Israel in with evil or corrupt regimes/places and refusing to sell them weapons is not Israel criticism.I'm not sure I buy that, but let's say I did. That still doesn't mean that there is anything intrinsically antisemitic about hating the Israeli state. A bleeding heart pacifist can despise the means in which Israel handles its issues with the Palestinians, and thus hate the Israeli state, but that doesn't mean said pacifist hates Jews in general.

[Peally]

So that's your argument? The only reason Israel is attacked is because they can find it on a map?

Yes, I'm deadly serious.

smdh

[TheNewbie]

Yes, I'm deadly serious.

smdh

Why do you shake your head? You made the statement.

[TheNewbie]

Facebook called, they want their comment thread back. :)

I'd appreciate it if we could stick to talking about HK in this one. Feel free to start another one to discuss antisemitism and/or whatever this thread has turned into.

Sorry. This stuff really pisses me off and I knew I shouldn't thread drift when I did but I did it anyway.

Is it possible that HK would ever have a situation where they largely relocate to the states?

[fixer]

dang...someone is killed every 13 minutes with an "HK"bullet...wow...

so they are reliable right?

(gallows humor)

[LittleLebowski]

I've always thought that this was the fault of German laws, is there someone saying that is not the case?

[JHC]

That person is probably getting pretty tired of it by now.

MUST quote so it's in my recent posts and I can more easily find it to read again and again. ROFL

I don't understand why Columbia would get the cold shoulder either (referring to the previously mentioned case, not the OP article). They have worked hard to keep their country tracking favorably.

[Peally]

dang...someone is killed every 13 minutes with an "HK"bullet...wow...

so they are reliable right?

(gallows humor)

I was gonna say, for a worldwide firearms manufacturer that's called "success" :D

[TheNewbie]

The Guardian article linked from the article linked to in the OP made it sound like a purely corporate decision.

Of course news stories are not always what they seem. This is not even an attack on fake news. The laziness and incompetence of many in the media makes me question much of what I read .


I do agree that it sounds like an HK decision, but I hope I'm wrong.

[Amp]

Company directors have also promised to consider setting up a compensation fund for victims of its guns, although it remains unclear how such a fund would work. German veteran anti-arms-trade campaigner Jürgen Grässlin pointed out that such an initiative would be “unique anywhere in the world”.

[Tamara]

This gem was also in the Guardian article:

There are an estimated 15 million of the firm’s G3 rifles in circulation alone, and Grässlin has estimated that one person gets killed by a Heckler & Koch bullet every 13 minutes.:rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psHZ10zjnR0

[Hambo]

Companies can sell or not sell to whichever countries they want. I may or may not agree with what they do, but it's their decision.

On a historical note, the area of land on the eastern Med is a crossroads, and like all such, has been fought over for thousands of years. Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, etc, etc.

[Robinson]

Company directors have also promised to consider setting up a compensation fund for victims of its guns, although it remains unclear how such a fund would work. German veteran anti-arms-trade campaigner Jürgen Grässlin pointed out that such an initiative would be “unique anywhere in the world”.

Not to mention it would set a really bad precedent...

[Tamara]

Company directors have also promised to consider setting up a compensation fund for victims of its guns...

That is the most amazingly retarded thing I have read thus far in 2017.

[BigT]

Having the misfortune of trying to deal with this for a few years now, being in a country already on that list. I would bet that this is a lot more Germany.gov than HK.com. In fact it looks like someone from the German government sent them the list and explained that they will print this on their letter head or export permits to friendly countries will be "delayed"

[Sero Sed Serio]

This gem was also in the Guardian article:

There are an estimated 15 million of the firm’s G3 rifles in circulation alone, and Grässlin has estimated that one person gets killed by a Heckler & Koch bullet every 13 minutes.:rolleyes:

Archer response: Good God, man, are you hourly?

Lord of War response: My question is, how do we kill people during the other 12 minutes?

Relevant to thread response: I would agree with BigT that this feels like it was a "corporate decision" in the sense that if HK "decided" to follow these parameters, the process of exporting arms outside of Germany would be much, much easier [insert image of Merkel smacking fist against palm in time to each "much" here]

[Kyle Reese]

Pshaw! Pikers.


But seriously. Israel? That's messed up.

Isn't Turkey currently permitted to manufacture various HK models under license? Additionally, Iran and Pakistan manufacture and utilize various and sundry classic HK designs, such as the G3.


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[OlongJohnson]

Company directors have also promised to consider setting up a compensation fund for victims of its guns, although it remains unclear how such a fund would work. German veteran anti-arms-trade campaigner Jürgen Grässlin pointed out that such an initiative would be “unique anywhere in the world”.

So... volunteering for what Her was using the courts to compel 15-20 years ago here in the states?

Never been happier to have both 2A and PLCAA.

[Robert Mitchum]

Think this was 2012



Germany okays deal to sell nuke-capable submarines to Israel

Germany okays deal to sell nuke-capable submarines to Israel
Navy to receive 3 more Dolphin-class vessels, in $1.3 billion deal overshadowed by corruption allegations surrounding Netanyahu
By TOI staff



An Israeli Navy Dolphin-class submarine. (Moshe Shai/Flash90)
Germany’s national security council approved the sale of three more nuclear-capable submarines to Israel for a combined price of some $1.3 billion, in a deal marred by controversy surrounding corruption allegations against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.



The Israeli Navy currently maintains a fleet of five state-of-the-art German underwater vessels of the Dolphin Class, which can be equipped with nuclear warheads, with a sixth due for delivery this year.

At this stage, the new submarines are not meant to expand the navy’s fleet and would not actually reach Israel for at least another decade. Rather, they would replace the military’s older submarines, which would be approaching obsolescence around the same time, the Times of Israel reported late last year.
Submarines, unmatched in their ability to hide from enemy navies, have long been a major facet of Israel’s defense policy.
Israeli subs are reportedly armed with cruise missiles topped with nuclear warheads, affording the tiny Jewish state “second strike” capabilities — although the government will not acknowledge the existence of these nuclear weapons, as part of its long-standing policy of “nuclear ambiguity.”
The approval of the deal on Friday was first reported by Der Spiegel which did not cite the source of the information.
The German paper further reported that the council decided the deal would be called off if an investigation into corruption suspicions yielded any indication of wrongdoing, according to Channel 2.
Both Israel and Germany opened separate probes into allegations Netanyahu’s personal lawyer allegedly swayed multi-billion shekel deals in favor of the German shipbuilder ThyssenKrupp he represented in Israel. The company was awarded the contracts to build the submarines.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu shakes hands with members of the Israeli Navy at a ceremony welcoming the INS Tanin submarine in the Port of Haifa on September 23, 2014. (photo credit: Kobi Gideon/Government Press Office )
Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit ordered the Israel Police to formally look into the affair in November 2015 after accusations surfaced that the prime minister may have been swayed to purchase the vessels by business ties David Shimron may have had with ThyssenKrupp. The purchase was opposed by parts of the defense establishment, including then Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon.
The deal came under intense scrutiny late last year after it was revealed by Channel 10 news that Shimron also served in an advisory capacity for ThyssenKrupp.
Police were checking whether the premier himself may have sought to influence the deals due to his ties to Shimron.
The probe is known in Israel as “Case 3000” and is one of several graft investigations involving the prime minister.
Ya’alon recently testified against Netanyahu in the case, saying the PM was directly involved in negotiating the purchase of at least three submarines with German officials. Those talks were done without the involvement of Israel’s security establishment, Ya’alon reportedly said.
19925
AFP contributed to this report

[RevolverRob]

So...the Israelis don't use virtually any HK arms anyways - excepting the P11 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_P11

They use US or Israeli built LMGs and GPMGs, US, Israeli, or Soviet-built assault rifles, Israeli made SMGs, and Israeli or Austrian made pistols.

Me thinketh this is just a publicity ploy to look better, than an action that has any teeth.

[GardoneVT]

I'm not selling my guns to Israel either,come to think of it.

Where's my Nobel Peace Prize?

[TAZ]

So does that mean more for the rest of us, or is the EU going to figure out ways to ban sales to anyone for some odd reason?

HK who is supposedly already on financial hard times can't/won't (I'm guessing this is idiotic government intervention) sell to countries meaning less inventory movement and $$ made. Simultaneously sets up a fund for victims of whatever and expects to keep doors open?? Maybe the Germans and the EU are doubling down on the cultural suicide and now inducing corporate suicide as well.

What happens if the US says: HK = antisemite and no more DOD purchase?

Does the Bundeswehr buy enough HK product to keep it alive?

[RevolverRob]

So does that mean more for the rest of us, or is the EU going to figure out ways to ban sales to anyone for some odd reason?

HK who is supposedly already on financial hard times can't/won't (I'm guessing this is idiotic government intervention) sell to countries meaning less inventory movement and $$ made. Simultaneously sets up a fund for victims of whatever and expects to keep doors open?? Maybe the Germans and the EU are doubling down on the cultural suicide and now inducing corporate suicide as well.

What happens if the US says: HK = antisemite and no more DOD purchase?

Does the Bundeswehr buy enough HK product to keep it alive?

My interpretation, based on reading the finance reports, seeing the political moves, the HK press releases, and hearing via the rumor mill - is that HK - GMBH - will probably exist solely as a design/engineering subsidiary of HK Corp. which will be incorporated in the USA within the next 15 years. The German government has been sufficiently antagonistic to HK that it appears HK leadership is already moving certain key facets of production and corporate management to the US. If the line continues, they'll probably continue this kind of movement.

I don't think Heckler and Koch is in danger of going anywhere, but HK GMBH may very well disappear under a mountain of financial woes and German governmental interaction.

[BigT]

My interpretation, based on reading the finance reports, seeing the political moves, the HK press releases, and hearing via the rumor mill - is that HK - GMBH - will probably exist solely as a design/engineering subsidiary of HK Corp. which will be incorporated in the USA within the next 15 years. The German government has been sufficiently antagonistic to HK that it appears HK leadership is already moving certain key facets of production and corporate management to the US. If the line continues, they'll probably continue this kind of movement.

I don't think Heckler and Koch is in danger of going anywhere, but HK GMBH may very well disappear under a mountain of financial woes and German governmental interaction.


It was explained to me by an executive at another company , and this is out of my lane so if anyone understands better I would appreciate the info, that technology transfer control stops HK USA setting up a factory in the US and using that to produce existing designs and avoid Mutti Merkels control.

[Mike C]

It was explained to me by an executive at another company , and this is out of my lane so if anyone understands better I would appreciate the info, that technology transfer control stops HK USA setting up a factory in the US and using that to produce existing designs and avoid Mutti Merkels control.

They can't sell intellectual property rights? Is there a German law to stop that?

[willie]

I suspect that the so called Palestinian question is much of the impetus driving HK's decision, and like many here, I'm convinced Germany's policy makers have their heads up.....When I reflect on Jewish persecution during the 20th Century, I think that no other country(especially Germany)can justify telling the Israelis what to do.

[RevolverRob]

They can't sell intellectual property rights? Is there a German law to stop that?

They might not be able to...as long as the company is still operating in Germany. But if it "goes under"?

[BigT]

They can't sell intellectual property rights? Is there a German law to stop that?

I think its not an intellectual property rights thing and more a "military" technology transfer issue.

Just like your laws prevent me just going to the US and engaging in certain training without permits. I am not leaving with anything physical, but theres still limits.

[jc000]

Ease up on the "Germany r teh Nazis again" stuff. It's unwarranted and shrill.

[Mike C]

I think its not an intellectual property rights thing and more a "military" technology transfer issue.

Just like your laws prevent me just going to the US and engaging in certain training without permits. I am not leaving with anything physical, but theres still limits.

So basically ITAR issue? If that is the case I get it. Makes sense that you wouldn't just want anything walking out the front door, services/training or goods.

[TheNewbie]

Ease up on the "Germany r teh Nazis again" stuff. It's unwarranted and shrill.

Modern day Germany is not Nazi. It is however leftist and leftism often leads to anti Israel sentiment and hate.

So we should applaud Germany for overcoming their past but be concerned by their future.

Needles to say, there are many great individual Germans.

[Peally]

Ease up on the "Germany r teh Nazis again" stuff. It's unwarranted and shrill.

Don't be a party pooper, without moronic shit to read the internet would be less entertaining.

[LittleLebowski]

Don't be a party pooper, without moronic shit to read the internet would be less entertaining.

That's what Tom pays me for, I am expert.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6mw500RZ0Us/UAA9L-mBmwI/AAAAAAAAAoE/bq3-jLf_icU/s400/96596.jpeg

[Kyle Reese]

Logjammin mitt zee Karl Hungus!

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[SD]

Wonder if Canada is on that list. JK

[Hot Sauce]

I don't think there are any HK weapons in the Israeli arsenal to begin with. Stupid decision, but kind of moot.

[RevolverRob]

I don't think there are any HK weapons in the Israeli arsenal to begin with. Stupid decision, but kind of moot.

Exactly.

My take on this is - HK has been getting hammered left and right by the German Government. They finally said, "Hey look, we'll make you a deal. We'll establish guidelines on who we sell guns to and let you know who we won't sell guns to." And then they build a set of guidelines that exclude countries that they don't currently sell guns to, in the first place.

German Government says, "Gut job." and ignores HK for a little while.

I think if the Israelis called HK up and wanted some guns, they'd at least try to find a way to sell them to them.

[jc000]

Needles to say, there are many great individual Germans.

The same could be said about Israelis. And don't forget about all the awesome Israeli sports cars, beer, watches, handguns, and World Cup champion soccer team.

[TheNewbie]

The same could be said about Israelis. And don't forget about all the awesome Israeli sports cars, beer, watches, handguns, and World Cup champion soccer team.

I'm missing the point.

[blues]

The same could be said about Israelis. And don't forget about all the awesome Israeli sports cars, beer, watches, handguns, and World Cup champion soccer team.

And Gal Gadot...

http://awiderbridge.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/5000958-17-gal-gadot.w750.h560.2x.jpg

I could care less about the other stuff...(existent or not).

[Hambo]

I think if the Israelis called HK up and wanted some guns, they'd at least try to find a way to sell them to them.

I think if anybody with cash calls, ze Germans will find a way to sell to them. At least that's what they've done in the past.

[blues]

I'm missing the point.

I don't think it was a nice one but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt.

[RevolverRob]

I think if anybody with cash calls, ze Germans will find a way to sell to them. At least that's what they've done in the past.

Exactly, modern Germany is one thing in the business world, capitalist. Some folks are calling this antisemitism, I see it as a business decision. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good one, but you have regulators breathing down your neck and you know you aren't selling guns to certain controversial countries*. Why not appease the regulators by saying you aren't going to sell guns to the controversial countries that you aren't selling guns to anyways?

Whether you or I, individually, agree with and/or support Israel is irrelevant in this broader sense. The German government has tacit support for Israel, but also still has to deal with multi-national politics. Avoiding open support for Israel helps them acquire oil and gas from Iran, for instance. A critical infrastructural need for German industry to continue going forward. Gas and oil they need to build nuclear capable submarines for the Israelis for instance.

In short, while antisemitism isn't dead, I think it's myopic to view it as a leading cause for geopolitical decisions, today. Decisions that are much more complicated than they seem and involve many nations and multiple multi-nation organizations. Germany can't afford to alienate Jews, but it also can't afford to be strangled industrially or economically...for those playing the home game...that's basically what led to the rapid rise of Nazis in the first place...social disenfranchisement driven by economic sanctions imposed via the Treaty of Versailles.

*Israel IS a controversial country with many questionable human rights issues. Yes they are under a relatively constant existential threat from neighbors, but they aren't helping themselves with this continued situation with Palestine and human rights violations.

[blues]

In short, while antisemitism isn't dead, I think it's myopic to view it as a leading cause for geopolitical decisions, today. Decisions that are much more complicated than they seem and involve many nations and multiple multi-nation organizations. Germany can't afford to alienate Jews, but it also can't afford to be strangled industrially or economically...for those playing the home game...that's basically what led to the rapid rise of Nazis in the first place...social disenfranchisement driven by economic sanctions imposed via the Treaty of Versailles.

I wonder if folks with skin in the game would feel similarly dispassionate regarding the 'struggle' for racial acceptance, balance and equality here at home and abroad. It's a big leap (and long road) from the Treaty of Versailles to Auschwitz no matter how you connect the dots.

[RevolverRob]

I wonder if folks with skin in the game would feel similarly dispassionate regarding the 'struggle' for racial acceptance, balance and equality here at home and abroad. It's a big leap (and long road) from the Treaty of Versailles to Auschwitz no matter how you connect the dots.

With all due respect, I think you're shooting wide of my point.

HK not selling guns to the Israelis has little to do with the 'struggle' for acceptance. As we've already noted, multiple times now, the Israelis are doing just fine without German guns and historically have done so. Whether Israel need German political or military support in the future is not dependent on HK selling them guns. A company's decision, whether forced by external regulators or not, is not the issue that the Israelis are going to make a mountain out of. They have bigger fish to fry...like getting nuclear-class submarines and making sure the Germans vote on their side of important political issues in the UN.

The Germans, by contrast, have to maintain economic stability, because they, historically, have made bad political decisions in times of economic instability. Particularly, when there is the potential for social disenfranchisement. Given that the seeds of a certain amount of disenfranchisement have been sown in Germany, with the bailing out of Greece (paid for by German workers) and with racial tensions with Turkish immigrants - Now is not the time to play with fire and tip a hand that is pro-Israel when you need gas and oil.

So again, I submit. HK making this decision is a business decision to appease German government regulators, not one to specifically screw over Israelis. Regulators who probably do nothing and know nothing of foreign-policy interactions with Israel. I'd be stunned, stunned if anyone who is putting pressure on HK has ever met a single Israeli Ambassador or Vice Ambassador.


___

[blues]

With all due respect, I think you're shooting wide of my point...snip

I'll accept that as fair, Rob. I think that the broadening of the topic to German history post WWI, the Nazi era etc allowed for a bit too much latitude and room for misinterpretation on all sides.

Fuck HK...I always knew they hated us anyway. ;)

(Though I did enjoy the MP5 while on our team. Wouldn't have minded owning one.)

[TiroFijo]

Not long ago there was a "scandal" in Germany about HK selling guns to a mexican state that was troubled with human rights abuse... apparently the good germans want clients whiter than white.

Most long guns in Mexico's army are HK, both made in Germany or in Mexico under license (or cloned :D but that's another topic), yet there was a lot of trouble about sales to a mexican state for LE use/whatever use :rolleyes:

If it were for the left in Germany, they would just close HK for good.

[BehindBlueI's]

And don't forget about all the awesome Israeli sports cars, beer, watches, handguns, and World Cup champion soccer team.

That's not how you spell "Italian".

[blues]

That's not how you spell "Italian".

Italian watches? Now you're pushing it...;)

[Mjolnir]

I think people are reading way too much into this.

A company exists to make money. Period.

The decision to do this was not the sole initiative of HK.

Since the end of WW II Germany has been infested with rats who were placed into government to rule the population with an iron rod.

This is the end result.

The Germans I've met don't think of Jews in any negative way. So please drop the anti-Semitism charges.

It's a political issue. Period.

And an ODD one to boot.


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[jc000]

That's not how you spell "Italian".

That would be motorcycles, wine, suits, handguns, and World Cup champion soccer team.

[jc000]

I don't think it was a nice one but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Oh stop, you.

[Hot Sauce]

The Germans I've met don't think of Jews in any negative way. So please drop the anti-Semitism charges. While I'm not raising any anti-Semitism charges, I really hope that for your own sake you see the flaw in your logic here.

[LittleLebowski]

That's not how you spell "Italian".

Duh, it’s Eyetalian.

#SpellingForMarins

[modrecoil]

Deleted. Didn't see Tom's request upthread.

[modrecoil]

Facebook called, they want their comment thread back. :)

I'd appreciate it if we could stick to talking about HK in this one. Feel free to start another one to discuss antisemitism and/or whatever this thread has turned into.
:)

[Peally]

I wasn't paying attention to what's even going on but I'll give you a free one.

[jc000]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu3nu6ue2qU

[hufnagel]

You are going to make me go see what I posted, aren’t you? :)

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/picard-facepalm.jpg

you really are such a shit mod. :D


so... relevant to the OP, is this an H&K-only "business decision", or did the german .gov make them do it? both ideas have been postulated, and i'm curious if any actual evidence to either has been ferreted out. or, is there a 3rd option that isn't being discussed.

[hufnagel]

And to now jump into the shark infested pool, I seriously believe that a lot of people need to stop jerking their knees every time something happens that makes them think it's anti-jew. That smoke you're seeing, is from the fire you just lit; stop trying to blame it on someone or something else.

[blues]

And to now jump into the shark infested pool, I seriously believe that a lot of people need to stop jerking their knees every time something happens that makes them think it's anti-jew. That smoke you're seeing, is from the fire you just lit; stop trying to blame it on someone or something else.

The "J" in Jew is capitalized. Is that smoke I see? Herr Hufnagel? ;)

[hufnagel]

heh. please. I'm no more german than jersey shore beach go'er. hell I don't even speak german! :D

[BigT]

I think if anybody with cash calls, ze Germans will find a way to sell to them. At least that's what they've done in the past.

You would think that. But HK have been aggressively stopped from doing that to countries on Merkels naughty list.