Does CZ Really Care about the CCW Market?

[MUHerd]

Hey all,

Just curious about something. I've been kinda looking at possible choices for a CCW pistol in the near future. I have wanted a CZ for the longest time. I really like their handguns. I checked out their line and while they have several really nice pistols, it appears that they really don't have any that are a lightweight option like all other handguns companies have. They don't have any option below 27 ounces, give or take a smidge. It's hard to pick a CZ that weighs 27 ounces when I have a Glock 19 that weighs 24. The best and lightest option for a CZ for carry is actually a TRISTAR C100 that's made in Turkey. It's 24 ounces and change, which is lighter than any CZ in their current catalog.
The P-01.....28 ounces
The 75 PCR Compact Aluminum.....27 and change
The RAMI......almost 27 ounces
The P-07.......Right at 27 ounces


I'd like to have a CZ, but at the prices they are, it just doesn't make sense to spend that much money when there are lighter, less expensive options in both striker fired and traditional SA/DA.

Nothing against CZ....I'd love to have a couple of them and have really liked them for a long time. It just doesn't look like the CONCEALED CARRY MARKET means very much to them at all.

Anyone else think this too?

MUHerd

[gruntjim]

I've been extremely happy with my P-07, especially in light of the DA pull when carrying AIWB.

I don't notice three ounces difference, but I would notice a 9mm hole in my parts.

[Trukinjp13]

P-10c and p07 are very very good carry guns. They also are going to make a subcompact version of the p-10c


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[HCM]

The P10C is 26 oz. 2 oz not really a big deal.

[SSGN_Doc]

I recently moved away from a Glock 19 to a Beretta Px4 compact (27.2 oz) another contender is the CZ P07 (27.7 oz).

I don't really notice the weight difference of 2-3 oz on my belt, when I'm already carrying keys, knife, pen, phone, wallet, etc.

There are other qualities besides raw weight that go into how concealable/carriable a pistol is. External dimensions, shape, textures all contribute to carry comfort. Then there is how friendly it actually is to shooting. Does it point natural, have a trigger you can operate well without excessively disturbing the pistol? Is is suited to "crisis management" or use under stress? Is it vetted as reliable?

Budget does come into play. How inexpensive is the competition. Does the competition require a lot of parts be changed? How available and expensive are desired improvements like extra mags, holsters, useful sights, etc.?

If it isn't a quarter pound or more in difference it may be that critical. You have to ask what you are getting with the weight.

[psalms144.1]

I'm a big believer in the G19 as the most size efficient handgun on the market today, but, worrying about 2-3 ounces of extra weight seems short sighted. Not to mention that different manufacturers provide different specifications that speak to their products strengths. Do we know if the listed GLOCK weight includes an empty magazine? Does the CZ? The all-metal CZ mag weighs more than the G19 - so...

[olstyn]

Plenty of people have carried significantly heavier guns than the CZs that MUHerd has cited the weights of. Wikipedia has the SIG P229 at 31.9 ounces, for example. For that matter, how many people have carried full-size 1911s? Those are even heavier. As long as we're not talking about guns so heavy they'll make you lean to one side, weight would not be at the top of my list of important factors when choosing a carry gun.

[Mjolnir]

Crying about a few ounces?

Then by all means do not load said pistol with ammo.

I am new to CZ. I have a CGW P-07. I've no idea what it weighs. I won't look it up and I won't listen if you tell me.

It does not matter.

You have the P-07, P-09 and P-10. Then there is the Rami.

I'm afraid I cannot agree with the OP.


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[guymontag]

No they don't have anything close to a PF-9 or anything like that. But luckily the guns are reliable and accurate and almost always value priced.

[opmike]

None of the weights quoted are significant enough for them to be a primary consideration over the overall packaging of the firearm.

[Hot Sauce]

Is it PFestivus yet? Because these threads are why we have PFucking PFestivus.

[Kyle Reese]

Purchasing a suitable belt and holster combination would make carrying a CZ a non issue, OP.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I've been extremely happy with my P-07, especially in light of the DA pull when carrying AIWB.

I don't notice three ounces difference, but I would notice a 9mm hole in my parts.

This, I loved my P-07 when I had it... three ounces is not even in the realm of actual perception given a proper holster/belt combo.

[olstyn]

Crying about a few ounces?

Then by all means do not load said pistol with ammo.

And certainly don't load it with 124, 135, or 147 grain 9mm as long as 115 is available! :)

[octagon]

And certainly don't load it with 124, 135, or 147 grain 9mm as long as 115 is available! :)

While your post was likely meant in jest it does have some real validity. Take a Glock 19 with 16 total rounds. If a person uses 115 gr defensive ammo vs 147gr they save 512 grains or 1.17 ounces. If this ammo was loaded in Shellshock cases which are reportedly 1/2 the weight of brass casings even more weight could be reduced. My guess is that close to 2 ounces is the difference in ammo choice from lightest to heaviest.

That isn't an endorsement or suggestions to go one way or another or to use less effective ammo just an observation.

[opmike]

I just can't bring myself to dial that deep into shedding an ounce or two unless I was trying to send something into orbit.

[cheby]

This thread is awesome

[Redhat]

I'm always amazed when I hear comments such as the OP's concerning defensive handgun weight. My own personal priorities are reliability, shootability and concealability.

[walker2713]

Olstyn

"And certainly don't load it with 124, 135, or 147 grain 9mm as long as 115 is available!"

I Liked it, Unliked it, and Liked it again.:rolleyes:

[Trukinjp13]

My take on carry weight.

40 oz 1911 heavy
26 oz p-10c light


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[Clusterfrack]

If Gabe carries what he competes with, maybe I should get an AIWB holster for my 48 oz Shadow 2.

[RichY]

My thoughts precisely!👍

[HCM]

Purchasing a suitable belt and holster combination would make carrying a CZ a non issue, OP.

I see what you did there :

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27322-Suggest-a-Comfy-Carry-Rig-for-a-Hi-Power-Please

[BehindBlueI's]

Yesterday I was attached to a bloodhound handler for a track to locate a missing child. I was called out while in office attire (to include dress shoes) and due to the nature of the run did not take the time to change into a uniform. While following the dog over a few hours, I did not once note the weight of my pistol, radio, or bag of "scent items" the handler asked me to carry. I did note dress shoes suck for going over rip-rap.

I can't imagine the concern over a few ounces of weight in a belt carried pistol. Ankle carry, ok. Pocket carry, ok. Belt? I have no idea what any of my guns weigh, and it's never been a factor in deciding what to carry. Compared to a leather duty belt with all the assorted stuff a cop has to carry, they are all light.

Are you an ultra-marathoner? Hiking the AT? If not, either your support gear sucks, you're mentally defeating yourself, or you should see a doctor.

[GJM]

Yesterday I was attached to a bloodhound handler for a track to locate a missing child. I was called out while in office attire (to include dress shoes) and due to the nature of the run did not take the time to change into a uniform. While following the dog over a few hours, I did not once note the weight of my pistol, radio, or bag of "scent items" the handler asked me to carry. I did note dress shoes suck for going over rip-rap.

I can't imagine the concern over a few ounces of weight in a belt carried pistol. Ankle carry, ok. Pocket carry, ok. Belt? I have no idea what any of my guns weigh, and it's never been a factor in deciding what to carry. Compared to a leather duty belt with all the assorted stuff a cop has to carry, they are all light.

Are you an ultra-marathoner? Hiking the AT? If not, either your support gear sucks, you're mentally defeating yourself, or you should see a doctor.

Every extra pound in your shoes is supposed to equal five pounds on your pack. You are lucky you were in loafers, or your load would have been punishing. You do wear loafers and not lace up oxfords?

[psalms144.1]

Yesterday I was attached to a bloodhound handler for a track to locate a missing child. I was called out while in office attire (to include dress shoes) and due to the nature of the run did not take the time to change into a uniform. While following the dog over a few hours, I did not once note the weight of my pistol, radio, or bag of "scent items" the handler asked me to carry. I did note dress shoes suck for going over rip-rap.

I can't imagine the concern over a few ounces of weight in a belt carried pistol. Ankle carry, ok. Pocket carry, ok. Belt? I have no idea what any of my guns weigh, and it's never been a factor in deciding what to carry. Compared to a leather duty belt with all the assorted stuff a cop has to carry, they are all light.

Are you an ultra-marathoner? Hiking the AT? If not, either your support gear sucks, you're mentally defeating yourself, or you should see a doctor.Yeah, but you're obviously not switched on - what with the fedora and all. If you were REALLY Operator, you'd wear a hat that was at least an ounce or two lighter than a fedora...

[Clusterfrack]

BBI--Did you find the kid?

[Trukinjp13]

All I can hear is nutnfancy and speeches of ounces. Sad.

Also maybe just take a big dump before you leave the house. Should help with a couple ounces.


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[BehindBlueI's]

BBI--Did you find the kid?

Yeah, but too late to matter. Bloodhound said he was in the water, dive team confirmed.

http://fox59.com/2017/09/09/authorities-search-for-missing-5-year-old/

[BehindBlueI's]

Every extra pound in your shoes is supposed to equal five pounds on your pack. You are lucky you were in loafers, or your load would have been punishing. You do wear loafers and not lace up oxfords?

Slip on Rockports yesterday. Funny, though, the sergeant handing out assignments asked me "you're going to search wearing that?" I said "It's this or nude, your call... now give me my assignment."


Yeah, but you're obviously not switched on - what with the fedora and all. If you were REALLY Operator, you'd wear a hat that was at least an ounce or two lighter than a fedora...

Well, I was wearing a straw Stetson, probably lighter than fur felt. But honestly, I'm older, fatter, slower, and stiffer than I've ever been. I am the epitome of low speed/high drag. If *I* can pack all this shit while doing something physical, most anybody should be able to.

[olstyn]

While your post was likely meant in jest it does have some real validity. Take a Glock 19 with 16 total rounds. If a person uses 115 gr defensive ammo vs 147gr they save 512 grains or 1.17 ounces. If this ammo was loaded in Shellshock cases which are reportedly 1/2 the weight of brass casings even more weight could be reduced. My guess is that close to 2 ounces is the difference in ammo choice from lightest to heaviest.

That isn't an endorsement or suggestions to go one way or another or to use less effective ammo just an observation.

100% in jest, yes, and in fact, I did the math before posting. :cool:

[olstyn]

Yeah, but too late to matter. Bloodhound said he was in the water, dive team confirmed.

http://fox59.com/2017/09/09/authorities-search-for-missing-5-year-old/

Ugh, not a good day. Sorry BBI. :(

[GJM]

Yeah, but too late to matter. Bloodhound said he was in the water, dive team confirmed.

http://fox59.com/2017/09/09/authorities-search-for-missing-5-year-old/


Very sorry to hear that.

[Lon]

Yeah, but too late to matter. Bloodhound said he was in the water, dive team confirmed.

http://fox59.com/2017/09/09/authorities-search-for-missing-5-year-old/

Shit. Sorry BBI. Dead kid calls are the worst. Wish we were built with a delete button for our brain.

[BehindBlueI's]

Yeah, they suck. You never forget the kids, especially the losses. I'm not the parents, though, and I'm not the guy who has to go to the autopsy. My role in the suck is a small one.

Off topic, but I'll have to put the experience of tracking with a bloodhound in roll call stories. First time for me, I've done plenty of tracks with police dogs but never been assigned to a civilian bloodhound handler. It was quite different, and I came away with a huge amount of respect for the civilian S&R folks.

[s0nspark]

I carry a P-07 with an RMR and X300 WML with an extended mag AIWB every day. It has some weight but that is a small trade-off for what I consider to be the best gun in its class.

TDA: check (all of my carry guns are TDA or DAO)
milled for RMR: check (no going back!)
rail for WML: check (I find a light more useful than a laser but either are good)
extended capacity: check (this let's me carry 2 or 3 mags instead of 3 or 4)
compact size: check (size over weight)
polymer: check (ok, this saves a bit of weight)
user serviceable: check (I like to be able to maintain my own gear)

My stripped down carry setup is a standard P-07 with flush fit mag and irons, for when I have to dress up... which is rare, thankfully. ;-)

Of course, my needs may differ from the OP. Guns like the PF9 are, to me, backup guns - not primary carry guns. They are too small to shoot well under stress,have limited capacity and options (no WML, no RMR) ... just not the gun I would want to have if I needed a gun.

[Clusterfrack]

Yeah, but too late to matter. Bloodhound said he was in the water, dive team confirmed.

http://fox59.com/2017/09/09/authorities-search-for-missing-5-year-old/

Ah crap. That's too bad.

[Lost River]

Every extra pound in your shoes is supposed to equal five pounds on your pack. You are lucky you were in loafers, or your load would have been punishing. You do wear loafers and not lace up oxfords?

When I worked as a detective I had 3 basic rules for shoes.

1. They had to meet our dress code policy (which was actually a matter of if our douchebag bisexual LT liked them or not).

2. They needed to be good for monkey stomping the shit out of people who thought it was a good idea to become aggressive with an otherwise laid back detective.

3. They needed to be high quality and rugged enough to handle the varied terrain of our jurisdiction which is a mix of high desert/ mountains/ agricultural areas and typical inter-mountain west small towns and a mid sized city, with typical surrounding neighborhoods.

In the end I often wore boots with my dress clothes, simply for the fact that you cannot make an appointment for an emergency, and trying to run back to the office to change when there is a robbery/chase in progress is not really practical.



The weight of my pistol however was never really a concern.

Get into a shooting or 2,and it changes your perspectives on such things. 1 spare magazine just does not cut it anymore. Being able to reach a second gun with a non dominant hand (or while on your back) becomes something that you make sure is part of your every single day routine.

An ounce or 3 is not even a blip on the radar.

[Lost River]

Yeah, but too late to matter. Bloodhound said he was in the water, dive team confirmed.

http://fox59.com/2017/09/09/authorities-search-for-missing-5-year-old/

I am sorry to hear about that BBI.

Those are the ones that stay with you.
,
For me personally it is never about the ones you get to, it is about the ones you don't.

As a dad it usually really rips me up inside to deal with dead kids and having to go do the autopsies was even worse. Absolutely dreaded every single part of the investigations, as it seemed like it was taking something out of me that never was put back in.

[GJM]

9/11 got me thinking about dress shoes that you could walk twenty miles in, through tough conditions. I started wearing these, which look good with a suit or casual, and perform well enough to hike in. Haven't looked back on dress shoes since.

http://www.blundstone.com/shop/stout-brown-mens-or-womens-premium-leather-chelsea-boots-style-062

[SecondsCount]

.....
Nothing against CZ....I'd love to have a couple of them and have really liked them for a long time. It just doesn't look like the CONCEALED CARRY MARKET means very much to them at all.

Anyone else think this too?

MUHerd

My assumption is that you have not carried a lot of guns. Like others have mentioned, the belt and holster, along with good core strength, go a long way in making a heavy gun feel lighter. My petite wife carries a gun that weighs over 30 ounces on a regular basis but her belt and holster are not what I would consider pretty, just very functional.

[Trukinjp13]

Pf9 was the biggest pos I have owned. It also shot like shit. My g43/shield were so much better for me it was not funny. I still want a full gripped gun as primary. The g19 is king of size. The p-10c is right there. And it runs pretty damn well.

They do not make single stack tiny BACKUP guns. They build concealed fighting pistols.


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[Gorris]

I currently carry a Glock 19 and have looked into other concealed carry guns. Not once was I worried about the weight of the guns I was interested in. I looked to make sure that they were easy to conceal and were very accurate. It would still be the same weigh if I decided to change today.

[RND]

Hey all,

Just curious about something. I've been kinda looking at possible choices for a CCW pistol in the near future. I have wanted a CZ for the longest time. I really like their handguns. I checked out their line and while they have several really nice pistols, it appears that they really don't have any that are a lightweight option like all other handguns companies have. They don't have any option below 27 ounces, give or take a smidge. It's hard to pick a CZ that weighs 27 ounces when I have a Glock 19 that weighs 24. The best and lightest option for a CZ for carry is actually a TRISTAR C100 that's made in Turkey. It's 24 ounces and change, which is lighter than any CZ in their current catalog.
The P-01.....28 ounces
The 75 PCR Compact Aluminum.....27 and change
The RAMI......almost 27 ounces
The P-07.......Right at 27 ounces


I'd like to have a CZ, but at the prices they are, it just doesn't make sense to spend that much money when there are lighter, less expensive options in both striker fired and traditional SA/DA.

Nothing against CZ....I'd love to have a couple of them and have really liked them for a long time. It just doesn't look like the CONCEALED CARRY MARKET means very much to them at all.

Anyone else think this too?

MUHerd

Your thinking is flawed- you're going solely of numbers (that don't tell the whole story).

[RND]

My assumption is that you have not carried a lot of guns. Like others have mentioned, the belt and holster, along with good core strength, go a long way in making a heavy gun feel lighter. My petite wife carries a gun that weighs over 30 ounces on a regular basis but her belt and holster are not what I would consider pretty, just very functional.

And I carry a CZ75 SAO AIWB in a REMORA Micro. It's all about the trigger, first and foremost.

[luckyman]

9/11 got me thinking about dress shoes that you could walk twenty miles in, through tough conditions. I started wearing these, which look good with a suit or casual, and perform well enough to hike in. Haven't looked back on dress shoes since.

http://www.blundstone.com/shop/stout-brown-mens-or-womens-premium-leather-chelsea-boots-style-062

This has a chance of being the first PF post to actually save me money. (As opposed to rationalizing that I saved money on a "cry once" purchase)

[GCBHM]

Hey all,

Just curious about something. I've been kinda looking at possible choices for a CCW pistol in the near future. I have wanted a CZ for the longest time. I really like their handguns. I checked out their line and while they have several really nice pistols, it appears that they really don't have any that are a lightweight option like all other handguns companies have. They don't have any option below 27 ounces, give or take a smidge. It's hard to pick a CZ that weighs 27 ounces when I have a Glock 19 that weighs 24. The best and lightest option for a CZ for carry is actually a TRISTAR C100 that's made in Turkey. It's 24 ounces and change, which is lighter than any CZ in their current catalog.
The P-01.....28 ounces
The 75 PCR Compact Aluminum.....27 and change
The RAMI......almost 27 ounces
The P-07.......Right at 27 ounces


I'd like to have a CZ, but at the prices they are, it just doesn't make sense to spend that much money when there are lighter, less expensive options in both striker fired and traditional SA/DA.

Nothing against CZ....I'd love to have a couple of them and have really liked them for a long time. It just doesn't look like the CONCEALED CARRY MARKET means very much to them at all.

Anyone else think this too?

MUHerd

The P10 and P-07 are both fine carry guns. Unless you plan on carrying a lot of gear (like the kind troops carry into combat) you won't notice a few ounces difference btwn a Glock 19 and a P10 or P-07. I think either would be fine, and are priced slightly below the Glock 19 where I am. If I were not vested so deeply in Glock I would give a really serious look at the P10.

[TexasSiegfried]

The P10 and P-07 are both fine carry guns. Unless you plan on carrying a lot of gear (like the kind troops carry into combat) you won't notice a few ounces difference btwn a Glock 19 and a P10 or P-07. I think either would be fine, and are priced slightly below the Glock 19 where I am. If I were not vested so deeply in Glock I would give a really serious look at the P10.This^^^^^ for me too, except that it is P320s instead of Glocks.

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[Cecil Burch]

I am assuming the original post was a troll job. I cannot wrap my head around someone worried about 3 oz. There is no way, with a good belt and in a good holster that is properly positioned that anybody could tell the difference with 3 oz.

[HCM]

I am assuming the original post was a troll job. I cannot wrap my head around someone worried about 3 oz. There is no way, with a good belt and in a good holster that is properly positioned that anybody could tell the difference with 3 oz.

Agreed - that's why I linked the other thread he started about BHP holsters, which I believe was also a troll.

[Sal Picante]

I am assuming the original post was a troll job. I cannot wrap my head around someone worried about 3 oz. There is no way, with a good belt and in a good holster that is properly positioned that anybody could tell the difference with 3 oz.

Unless you're weighing ribeye/steaks...

[Zincwarrior]

MuHerd please note:

*While slightly heavier than plastic firearms, these weights are in line with smaller 1911s used for carry. I carried an officer's sized 1911 for years and the weight was a nonissue.

*As has been noted, its important to have a proper actual gun belt. I also found a spare mag to be helpful, and when combined with the belt, effectively spread the weight around such that it is not noticed.

*Additionally, what you really need to do is physically get the prospective pistol in your hand. Check for ranges in your area that rent pistols and see if it or comparables are available for rent to get a feel for them. Local gun shows also will let you get the physical feel of it, and that will decide it for you.

*If you like SA/DA, other comparables are Beretta, Taurus, and Sig just off the top of my head as well to consider.

[Zincwarrior]

Unless you're weighing ribeye/steaks...

Or gold. :)

Also there is a point, plastic guns are advantaged in weight and evidently that matters to a fair number of people, else there wouldn't be 237 versions of plastic guns and well two metal ones that I know of.

[BehindBlueI's]

Or gold. :)

Also there is a point, plastic guns are advantaged in weight and evidently that matters to a fair number of people, else there wouldn't be 237 versions of plastic guns and well two metal ones that I know of.

They are advantaged in terms of cost, which likely goes further in explaining their popularity.

[Zincwarrior]

That fails to explain aluminum framed semi autos (particularly 1911s) specifically designed to be less heavy. Just because some discount it, doesn't mean its not a factor. Clearly its a potential factor for this person. In the spirit of Pfestivus: i don't see why all you lame ass jokers are wanking your mouth holes about a simple question.* :o


*Real men don't worry about a few ounces, they carry .454 Casulls heh heh

[Zincwarrior]

:cool:
Additionally, to the OP, check out the very active Beretta Storm thread for discussions on a comparable.

[GJM]

I know an extremely weight conscious guy, performance oriented shooter that made the decision to carry the P07 despite the weight delta with the 19. When I asked him his secret, he told me flax seed with every meal.

[Sal Picante]

Or gold. :)

Also there is a point, plastic guns are advantaged in weight and evidently that matters to a fair number of people, else there wouldn't be 237 versions of plastic guns and well two metal ones that I know of.

I don't disagree that weight matters to some people...

I do wonder, though, for most people not doing a "load-out" or walking the Appalachian trail, how much it *really* matters.

I can't answer that and I'm not trying to troll...

[BehindBlueI's]

That fails to explain aluminum framed semi autos (particularly 1911s) specifically designed to be less heavy. Just because some discount it, doesn't mean its not a factor. Clearly its a potential factor for this person. In the spirit of Pfestivus: i don't see why all you lame ass jokers are wanking your mouth holes about a simple question.* :o


*Real men don't worry about a few ounces, they carry .454 Casulls heh heh

Aluminum framed semi-autos weren't part of your original premise of " plastic guns are advantaged in weight and evidently that matters to a fair number of people, else there wouldn't be 237 versions of plastic guns and well two metal ones".

Polymer guns are cheaper to make, generally cheaper to buy, and I suspect that's got more to do with the polymer-heavy marketplace than weight differences.

[Zincwarrior]

I don't disagree that weight matters to some people...

I do wonder, though, for most people not doing a "load-out" or walking the Appalachian trail, how much it *really* matters.

I can't answer that and I'm not trying to troll...

Yea, I agree in general. I can only speak for myself but the weight differential would not be an issue for me. Its also a function though thatwe are familiar with the weights and I imagine the OP does not have that experience yet.

[Zirk208]

7 pages and 1 week later the OP hasn't popped back in to reply to his own thread.

[JBhunter45]

Even if CZ made a smaller carry gun, probably wouldn't be able to import it anyway.

[Kyle Reese]

Even if CZ made a smaller carry gun, probably wouldn't be able to import it anyway.They import the RAMI without any problems.

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-2075-rami-9mm-black-alloy-14-rd-mags/

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[Sal Picante]

They import the RAMI without any problems.

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-2075-rami-9mm-black-alloy-14-rd-mags/

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They were too small for me... But I wondered - did they work?

[Kyle Reese]

They were too small for me... But I wondered - did they work?I'm not sure, but I guess that these are CZs Glock 26 sized offering.

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[RevolverRob]

Just a quick point. Weight doesn't matter as much as weight distribution matters, when it comes to carrying a handgun.

One reason for instance, that short barrel revolvers carry better than short-barrel pistols is the distribution of the weight, once loaded.

By contrast, long-barrel semi-autos carry better than long barreled revolvers (IWB at least) for the same reason.

I prefer my handgun to not feel like it is dragging my belt down and one way to do that is to have a handgun that has nearly equal parts steel above and below the belt line, along with a properly designed holster that distributes the weight across the belt more evenly. The Glock 19 carries so well, because it has excellent weight distribution, similarly the 1911 does the same. Some of the CZs are better about it than others, I think the P01, for instance, is a terrible carry gun, because it is butt-heavy and tends to cause twisting in the holster, the P07 by contrast is much better balanced.

It's a fine line to walk as a gun designer. You want the gun to balance well in the hand, because that aids shooting...you only secondarily consider it balancing well on the belt.

[Olim9]

They were too small for me... But I wondered - did they work?

Mike Pannone has good things to say about the Rami. Afaik, the polymer framed Rami "P" suffered from reliability issues and thus were discontinued.

http://www.defensereview.com/cz-2075-rami-big-gun-performance-in-a-sub-compact-dasa-9mm-40-sw-pistol/