LEM for a DA revolver fan?

[1986s4]

After a long absence from the shooting sports and training I picked up my pistols again and started with my favorite semi-auto; a Colt .38 super. Due to life changes and two new jobs my training has been sporadic, fun and isolated to the Colt 1911.
Yesterday I had the chance to run some drills with the Colt and then my long unused Smith 686. The Colt went as expected and I was comfortable. When I broke out the Smith I thought: don't expect much...
Boy was I wrong! It felt like an old friend. I last competed with the revolver, I enjoyed the challenge and the long DA pull just agrees with me.

So my question is; if I do want a semi-auto is the HK series of LEM's the way to go? Most like a magazine fed revolver? With a lighter trigger pull? I do have a supply of P30 mags from a long gone DA/SA P30.
The recent issues with the drop safeness of the VP 9 concerns me and it's not a DA pull, IMO.

[JonInWA]

The closest thing to a magazine-fed revolver in a semi-auto in my personal experience would be a Beretta 92D/92D Centurion, but they're only sporadically available on the auction sites (but when they are, they seem to be at decent prices).

Otherwise, particularly for a brand-new pistol, I'd highly recommend an HK LEM. My LEM experience is solely with my P30L with the V1 light LEM in .40, but I've been exceptionally pleased with it. It's a different beast than your Smith & Wesson, and, for that matter, the 92D, but it's an easily picked up skill-set, especially for one used to revolvers. Safety, accuracy, durability, reliability are all excellent, and ergos are unparalleled. Another reason to go HK at this point in time is their magazine incentive. For OEM sights, I also recommend the Meprolights that are an optional OEM choice, unless you're set on another after-market sight choice-if so, then go with the less expensive Lumenova OEM sights.

Best, Jon

[willie]

I have a LEM P2000. I shoot it well, and my opinion is that my training in shooting double action revolvers contributes to my success here. I've owned and shot all types of center fire semi autos and am comfortable with all. I think that a LEM trigger is more forgiving than some other types in limiting the probability of negligent discharges. This statement would not apply to a group of optimally trained shooters using the best holster/belt gear. My HK LEM trigger has a long pull but is no way resembles a fine S&W double action trigger. Yet it is manageable. Within the LEM group I think that there are a couple different options offered that differ in pull weight.

[RevolverRob]

I switched from DA revolvers to V1 LEM recently. I like it for the most part and find the transition hasn't been too difficult. The trigger is a long stroke back that is light, it stacks into weight a bit and then breaks.

If you're any good at staging a revolver trigger, it feels a lot like when you're holding the "staged" part of the trigger, aligning the sights, and then pressing the break. That's about the best I can explain the LEM. But you get to the "staging" portion really quick, because there isn't much weight on it.

If you're looking for a rolling "revolver-like" trigger in a semi-auto, then buy a Kahr. Kahr has the most revolver-like triggers of all semi-autos and they're quite good out of the box. Better than 3rd gen Smiths and D-Spring equipped Berettas.

[M2CattleCo]

Not even close to any DA pull. The LEM is like a long travel, heavy Glock trigger.

[Jared]

I've never owned an LEM, but I did get to play with a P30 V1 that was owned by a friend on day. I got pretty solid results out of it by using the same technique that I use to shoot a DA revolver, just roll the trigger back while aiming the entire time, rinse and repeat.

I doubt I could do fast splits with one and have any real accuracy, but for shooting at evaluation pace, it was pretty darn good.

[Chuck Whitlock]

You might be interested in the Sig P250 line. A true DAO trigger that is very agreeable. Sig is discontinuing them to focus on 320 production....they use the same grip modules and magazines. They can be had for ~$400 or so.

[markdl000]

Another vote for the p250. I really like mine and wish I got a .380 as well. Highly recommended.


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[rdtompki]

You could have Rick Helm at Lazy Wolf guns work an HK LEM into a thing of beauty. I have the carry makeover so the trigger at 4.5 lbs. is heavy for competition, but it doesn't feel that "heavy" and the reset is very short. I do like LEM for carry

[TheNewbie]

I am that odd guy who liked the DAK over the LEM. A DAK P250 would be my main gun of choice if it existed.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Not even close to any DA pull. The LEM is like a long travel, heavy Glock trigger.

This is a great description. A lot of light take up with a definite wall at the end. I tried to love the LEM, but found my skill degrading rapidly without almost constant practice, so I went back to DA/SA for my HK guns and have been quite happy with them.

For a light DAO-type "street trigger," I think the SIG DAK is a great option--just a smooth, light pull all the way through. It does have a weird half-reset click where you can pull the trigger again with a much heavier pull (instead of letting it go all the way forward for the lighter pull), but it's easy to ignore. I've heard that SIG is discontinuing the DAK, but there are a lot of police trade-ins and even new/old stock pre-Cohen guns floating around for decent prices.

[David S.]

Not even close to any DA pull. The LEM is like a long travel, heavy Glock trigger.

Agreed. Also agree with the P250 rec.

[beenalongtime]

Would anyone care to comment about a D series PX4?

[Mike C]

Would anyone care to comment about a D series PX4?

Can't comment about the D PX4 but the 92D is a sweet ass pistol. Tom is spot on I think, the trigger is fantastic on them. All I dropped in mine was a Wilson TCU and main spring, it was the best factory DAO trigger on an auto I have ever felt. From what I have seen from the PX4 compact G I had the DA is excellent as well. If I was looking at a DAO auto I wouldn't even hesitate to look at the Beretta's, besides the fact that the trigger is sweet Beretta make a ton of parts for them.

[Doc_Glock]

My PX4 Berettas have a super sweet DA pull and a D model PX4 would be an incredibly nice pistol....if you can find one.

[45dotACP]

I've found the difference between a DAO pistol and a revolver is enough to make me prefer a revolver if I want a DAO gun. Maybe it's the non reciprocating front sight or whatever, but if you're looking for a good DAO gun, I'd probably recommend the Sig 229 in DAK or if you can find a Beretta 92D, I'd set it up just like JoninWa did in his thread.

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[1986s4]

Thank you gentlemen for the recs. I'm going to do what I usually do and look around a bit. I'm going to try a HK LEM and see if I can find a Beretta 92D to handle. As stated earlier the SIG P250 is no longer listed as a 9mm, .22 only. I heard they had some issues some years ago, where those fixed?

[Tom Duffy]

I have two "favorite" guns, a P30L light LEM and a newer Smith N-frame revolver. As noted, the two triggers aren't remotely the same. As you know, with a revolver you place the first joint of your finger on the trigger. With a LEM, you place your finger pad on the trigger. After the long, no effort take up, a LEM is essentially a single action trigger.

I briefly shot a friends Sig DAO and found it to be very unsatisfying. It is a DAO but with none of the smooth precision feel of a good revolver. I felt that I could shoot a revolver faster than the Sig. To be fair, the experience might get better with familiarity.

[David S.]

Thank you gentlemen for the recs. I'm going to do what I usually do and look around a bit. I'm going to try a HK LEM and see if I can find a Beretta 92D to handle. As stated earlier the SIG P250 is no longer listed as a 9mm, .22 only. I heard they had some issues some years ago, where those fixed?

It's my understanding that the early issues were resolved. There are likely easy to find on the pre-owned market. It's also my understanding that the .22 is designed to be converted to any other caliber.

[1986s4]

I have two "favorite" guns, a P30L light LEM and a newer Smith N-frame revolver. As noted, the two triggers aren't remotely the same. As you know, with a revolver you place the first joint of your finger on the trigger. With a LEM, you place your finger pad on the trigger. After the long, no effort take up, a LEM is essentially a single action trigger.

I briefly shot a friends Sig DAO and found it to be very unsatisfying. It is a DAO but with none of the smooth precision feel of a good revolver. I felt that I could shoot a revolver faster than the Sig. To be fair, the experience might get better with familiarity.

Interesting, I might find the LEM to be the best since I press the revolver trigger straight back with the pad of my finger. I also hold the revolver like a semi-auto thumbs forward and yes, I am aware of where the end of my left thumb is and so far no problems.

[Tom Duffy]

My apologies if I implied that there is only one way to shoot a revolver. :) I really like the LEM trigger and sounds like you might too. On the other hand, my daughter, who learned on a Glock, hates the LEM. Try several guns until you find one that speaks to you.

[coconutdave]

I have two P250's. Very revolver like triggers.

[psalms144.1]

I've repeatedly stated my opinion that the P250 is THE "flat revolver."

It's a darned shame Sig discontinued it. I'd love to see it re-released with the latest/greatest mechanical controls from the P320 (slide release and take down lever) and a standard dovetail rear sight. If that happened it would be my go-to winter carry .45...

[357carbine]

Pulled the sear out of a Beretta PX4CC(Wilson #12 spring) and have to say, it made the P250 feel really bad. And I like the P250 trigger!

[OlongJohnson]

I would add support to the Beretta 92/96 "D" as being overall excellent. The trigger bar simply hooks on the hammer and swings it around, until the notch breaks over center and the trigger bar is spit out, then it fires. Very, very little to give this system friction, so it is inherently smooth.

[serialsolver]

Does the 92d still have the long trigger reach of the tda 92? The trigger reach of the tda 92 is too long for my short trigger finger.


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[rathos]

I think a DAK is a lot closer to a double action revolver. LEM was always weird for me as there is no resistance until the end of the trigger pull. However I hate shooting DAK and the don't mind LEM.

[JonInWA]

Does the 92d still have the long trigger reach of the tda 92? The trigger reach of the tda 92 is too long for my short trigger finger.


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It does, and there's a long reset after each shot, While Wilson offers a short trigger for the Beretta 92, talk with them carefully before getting it; I believe the trigger mechanics and leverages of the 92D work best with the standard trigger.

Alternatively, going with the slimmest grips may help-at this point, I'd recommend the Langdon Tactical version of VZ's ultra slim grips in G10.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I think a DAK is a lot closer to a double action revolver. LEM was always weird for me as there is no resistance until the end of the trigger pull. However I hate shooting DAK and the don't mind LEM.

I had exactly the same results with DAK; for several years I ran a P229 with it, and it was the earlier lighter DAK, too. Ultimately I decided that to run DAK well it would have to be pretty much my exclusive/primary action, which I wasn't willing to do-for me, the juice didn't equal the squeeze. LEM is far more preferable to me.

Best, Jon

[Doc_Glock]

Arms Unlimited has C and D type PX4s in the $320-350 range. I would think they are hard to pass at that price if you are interested in DA autos. Unfortunately none are 9mm.

https://www.armsunlimited.com/searchresults.asp?Search=PX4+type+c&Submit=

[Doc_Glock]

Article on the C type.

http://blog.beretta.com/the-beretta-px4-type-c

[4gallonbucket]

Article on the C type.

http://blog.beretta.com/the-beretta-px4-type-c

Can you "thumb" the hammer while holstering a C-type a-la Gadget SCD?


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[sharps54]

Are there any secondary problems that would occur from converting a PX4 Compact type G to DAO?

[1986s4]

My apologies if I implied that there is only one way to shoot a revolver. :) I really like the LEM trigger and sounds like you might too. On the other hand, my daughter, who learned on a Glock, hates the LEM. Try several guns until you find one that speaks to you.

No offense taken!
Regards,
1986s4

[357carbine]

Are there any secondary problems that would occur from converting a PX4 Compact type G to DAO?

You feel kind of silly decocking a DAO!

[sharps54]

You feel kind of silly decocking a DAO!

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, you can't find type C & D compacts. If you replace the hammer, remove the sear and whatnot all you have left are the decocking levers which shouldn't matter as opposed to the F type safety.

[357carbine]

Yep!
Oh, you don't have to replace the hammer unless you want to.

[Mark D]

Agree with most of the others - I don't find the LEM to be anything like a revolver. I was reminded of this a couple of days ago when I got an older K-frame out of the safe and compared it to my edc P2000 with light LEM.

For what it's worth, I find the LEM difficult to master. In the past 6 months I've shot about 2500 rounds through my P2000, and at least that many dry-fire trigger presses. Yet last weekend I picked up a Glock (for the first time in many months) and shot it better than the P2000. The LEM has a lot of great features, but it can present some challenges too.

[JonInWA]

A Glock (or a 1911, etc.) is a better gun for pure shootability, but LEM is a better action choice for threat management, and, with sufficient practice, actually gives up relatively little in shootability (although I don't think in terms of absolute speed it is capable of trumping the other action choices).

It is faster than a double-action revolver, due to the short reset.

Best, Jon

[Mark D]

A Glock (or a 1911, etc.) is a better gun for pure shootability, but LEM is a better action choice for threat management, and, with sufficient practice, actually gives up relatively little in shootability (although I don't think in terms of absolute speed it is capable of trumping the other action choices).

It is faster than a double-action revolver, due to the short reset.

Best, Jon

Agree with you on the LEM. Dagga Boy's epic thread about the LEM as a street trigger was one of the first threads I read on PF. It's still one of my favorites.

[Dagga Boy]

I have an opinion on this that is a bit different (shocking). Trying to mimic a revolver in an auto simply has been a bit of a fail in my attempts. My S&W 3953 simply doesn't shoot like a revolver, and as both an early proponent and then a first to be horribly disappointed by the P250 being released initially as an utter piece of crap, I simply gave up on SIG unless it says W. Germany on the side.
I shoot revolvers, and LOVE the dang things. Here is where I find the tanslation. I press a LEM trigger like a revolver....a straight through roll. The same with the initial and hardest shot with the TDA auto. I use Revolvers to train for the hardest shot on both guns and then work on my second shot transition as being like an auto. Revolvers are simply a great way to train for a few types of Semi autos, versus Buying a semi auto to try to mimic the revolver.
For a long time, my dedicated dry practice gun was usually a revolver. Now it is likely a Beretta 92A1 working almost all DA. My SiRT was set up by Mike Hughs to be extreamly long and difficult.
I do not get on a range these days nearly as often as I should, so training dry is important for me, and I make it as hard as possible. Basically, if you can master a revolver trigger, you can master any of them.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I've repeatedly stated my opinion that the P250 is THE "flat revolver."

It's a darned shame Sig discontinued it. I'd love to see it re-released with the latest/greatest mechanical controls from the P320 (slide release and take down lever) and a standard dovetail rear sight. If that happened it would be my go-to winter carry .45...

Hopefully they will after 320 production levels out. At least I'm hoping so.
I don't know it a dovetailed rear sight is doable, as it is also the firing pin stop in this particular gun.


Pulled the sear out of a Beretta PX4CC(Wilson #12 spring) and have to say, it made the P250 feel really bad. And I like the P250 trigger!

This is interesting if my 250s crap out and replacements are unobtainium.

[sharps54]

If I'm asking a silly question please let me know and I'll drop it.

Can you convert a Px4 Compact Type G to DAO and if so what are the potential negatives of using said pistol as a carry gun?

[beenalongtime]

If I'm asking a silly question please let me know and I'll drop it.

Can you convert a Px4 Compact Type G to DAO and if so what are the potential negatives of using said pistol as a carry gun?

Yes a type G could be converted to a type D/DAO, but you would still have the decockers on the slide. One of the negatives is a Type D compact has never been made. (a lawyer point)