Do recent events cause you to reconsider the "safety" of your EDC

[GJM]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

[breakingtime91]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

Its made me really look toward well tested and utilized platforms. Glock and 92fs seem like two of the most used and tested firearms on our side of the pond. Makes me consider just sticking with those two for the foreseeable future.

[farscott]

Yes, drop safety of carry guns has crossed my mind. The biggest impact is that I am not willing to be a beta tester for pistols like the Gen 5 Glock 19. The next biggest impact has been to reinforce my belief that I require my striker-fired pistols to be equipped with Gadget (SCD). Not drop safety, but another layer of safety when holstering.

[Jaywalker]

Yes. I've ordered an HKP30SK, my first HK. "Has hammer."

Also, I'm taking more seriously Todd's advice not to mess with factory trigger parts.

[Clusterfrack]

Yes--I'm feeling good about my decision to go back to carrying a G19 or 43. (Even though the p320c offers a bit of a performance advantage, I found the Glock easier to carry. )

Now that I've determined the 320 is not drop safe, they are shelved until I'm confident the solution is both safe and reliable.

For me, this issue underscores why not to be an early adopter.

[BehindBlueI's]

Nope. I've never carried any of the new guys. Early on it was revolvers and 1911. For better then a decade, its either Glock or a Beretta TDA.

[JonInWA]

It's certainly validated some of my existing choices; fortuitously my major platforms are Beretta (92D), HK (P30L and VP40) and Glock (G17, G19, G21, G22, G34). And the venerable Ruger P89, and several 1911s. It's probably added a criteria element to future considerations.

Interestingly, I'd somewhat considered a P320 some time ago, as my primary sponsor is one of their magazine vendors, so I probably could have worked something out, but I decided that it really didn't seem to bring anything critically needed to my table, and then there would have the additional acquisitions of holsters, magazine pouches, etc.

We seem to have had the most open-minded and even-handed approach approach to the kerfluffle, but that's kind of the p-f norm, given the maturity and experience of many of the members.

Best, Jon

[Peally]

No...

[GJM]

Here is my concern with certain fully tensioned striker pistols like the VP9 and PPQ. Enel and his mallet have demonstrated that the striker can release with the wrong hit at the wrong spot. Leaving aside a dead trigger, which I can deal with, it makes those pistols dependent upon the firing pin block safety to prevent a discharge. The Glock and P10-C have an additional safety, which means two systems have to fail to discharge.

I spend lots of time in the air, and could easily visualize a high G situation. I would really hate to survive a crash, and have my pistol discharge in my appendix holster because of some malfunction, like a dirty pistol with a gummed up firing pin safety not working that day.

[SSGN_Doc]

Before the P320 flap and the mallet trsts I was reevaluating returning to DA/SA pistols for carry instead of my Glock. Some of the reasoning was ability to make the gun run with one hand. A friend need up getting attacked in a parking lot by a drugged up assailant. He got blind side rushed on his strong side and knocked to the ground. He 3 o'clock carried a 1911. He struggled to clear the pustol from the holster. He struggled for control of the pistol, and struggled to deactivate the manual safety. During the struggle the assailant was gnawing on his cheek. He ended up with significant scars and a change in ehere and what he carries now.

I also thought back to my own deployment experience and thd DA trigger preventing me from shooting someone I would have regretted shooting.

So, I was already in the process of reconsidering my carry platform.

after the P320 "Situation" there were some thoughtful posts and discussion on how the market drove the industry to develop these fully tensioned striker fired pistols in persuit of the lighter, crisper, and faster trigger. Part of this pursuit seems to come from the competition side of things. As the pistols displayed these great triggers for better split times, less pistol disturbance when pulled and a easier shallower learning curve to master, practical shooters running against these pustols in IPSC, and USPSA probably got tired of having their butts handed to them by less experienced shooters. The real practical shooters bought some, and like many gun owners do, they became "invested" in them. They defended using them
In defensive roles, because it is easier to justify the ammo and training budget on practicing with the same platform you carry. Then running what you carry also offers some comfort.

I'm wondering if there should not be a division of striker fired pistols for competition and another segment for real world combative use. Should there be DA or partly staged striker guns for carry and fully tensioned guns for racing? Are there blurred lines of what competitive practical shooting is and what practical combative shooting is? How many folks here actually compete with the same carry rigs they use for EDC to include holsters and mag carriers. Anyone carry IWB, but race with a competition hanger holster and a half dozen mags on their external race rig belts?

I'm not trying to be preachy or judgemental. Just trying to see how far we in the shooting community have contributed to blurring the lines of sport and defensive shooting.

[sharps54]

Not really, I had already bought SCDs for my Glocks. My only other "serious" handguns are lock free S&W revolvers.

I have been thinking about trigger systems again because I don't get to the range as much as I would like. I'm not sure dryfire is enough to ensure I don't "trigger check"under stress and after reading through old threads am considering switching to a P2000 or USPc with LEM. I realize that bad trigger disciple will result in NDs regardless of the trigger but since I don't compete or shoot enough I'm seriously considering the switch, especially since LEM P2000 are under $600 new. I'm taking two days of courses with Spencer Keepers at the end of the month and won't make a final decision until after that.

[GardoneVT]

I spend lots of time in the air, and could easily visualize a high G situation. I would really hate to survive a crash, and have my pistol discharge in my appendix holster because of some malfunction, like a dirty pistol with a gummed up firing pin safety not working that day.

Depending on specifics, an ugly car crash could impart similar forces.

After the way Sig handled the P320 incident it really called to mind what Todd G refered to in an earlier post. While I'm not worried about my personal carry choices, it does mean for me anything released in the last 10 years counts as "Beta Testing". Had someone in Omaha not stuck a P320 under a camera who knows how many unaware souls would be carrying one right now, fully convinced its a safe choice. Even ethical companies can't test every possible safety hazard in the lab, and it takes time for a problem to make its way back to the HQ for a resolution, sometimes years.

Hence the decade long "test period'. That's plenty of time for a problem to be unearthed with a design if it has one.

[BehindBlueI's]

Here is my concern with certain fully tensioned striker pistols like the VP9 and PPQ. Enel and his mallet have demonstrated that the striker can release with the wrong hit at the wrong spot. Leaving aside a dead trigger, which I can deal with, it makes those pistols dependent upon the firing pin block safety to prevent a discharge. The Glock and P10-C have an additional safety, which means two systems have to fail to discharge.

I spend lots of time in the air, and could easily visualize a high G situation. I would really hate to survive a crash, and have my pistol discharge in my appendix holster because of some malfunction, like a dirty pistol with a gummed up firing pin safety not working that day.

Has it also caused you to reconsider your carry position? There's a lot of ways to carry a gun that don't leave it pointed at you.

[jeep45238]

I haven't - my choice has been tda from a skill development area, which also means there's a de-tensioned hammer spring and a physical block between the firing pin and hammer, plus the firing pin block.


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[okie john]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

Not really. I tend to stick to one thing for years, although I will T&E stuff at length if the right people here talk it up. Testing a new EDC is expensive and time-consuming. If it goes well, then you get a huge knowledgebase and major investments in holsters, sights, mags, tools, parts, etc. for that platform. The cost of switching and duplicating all of that becomes time- and cost-prohibitive.

I can say that the recent unpleasantness has reminded me of the need to follow the 4 Universal Rules without fail, of the ancient wisdom of being conservative about EDC, and of the risk(s) of early adoption. I have much hope for the Gen5 Glock and I’ll rent one soon to see what everyone is talking about, but I won’t buy one for a year or more.


Okie John

[Kyle Reese]

*Looks down at Glock 17*.... Nope.

[schüler]

Yes and no. I've given up on anything being perfect.

A close friend was in an on-duty crash. His holstered G22 had something displaced - he thinks it was the RSA - such that he could not rack the slide. PITA disassembly, likely rendered it a single shot pistol. He didn't realize it til he got his gear back after the ER visit.

I was a Glock shooter for 15yrs, was top gun in my academy with my issued G23 vs. others' G22Cs and G35s. I have only had one of 11 stock Glocks owned be pleasantly accurate. Gen4 cured slide cuts but grip has never fit my dished palms/indexed as well as the newer ergo-gripped pistols.

I'm content with the PPQ for now, even the sacrilege of swapping a Sprinco spring/rod in the newest one for at least its initial 2k, probably long term test. As long as I'm at .30 splits or so I'm good with the in-battery timing. It sure as heck is less flippy. Hmm. I got a meme in mind for Enel...

I have an APX and it fits my hand even better, recoil is sweet, better mag well than PPQ. A compact grip forthcoming? Top edge sights vs. drive the dot? I'm waiting. Probably ought to get a good holster cooking.

[GJM]

Has it also caused you to reconsider your carry position? There's a lot of ways to carry a gun that don't leave it pointed at you.

Years back, I decided for a number of reasons including risk reduction, and because of where I live, to do the vast majority (north of 90 percent) of my live fire practice from an OWB holster. That holster is on a BOSS a hangar which places it off my body. I have not worried about carrying AIWB (distinct from regularly shooting AIWB) on the theory that a modern gun is safe once holstered.

This is more theoretical than actual, as I carry an HK or Beretta hammer gun a very high percentage of the time. I keep toying with carrying a PPQ EDC, as it is my primary gaming gun, but I haven't been able to get myself there. Recent events reinforce that reluctance.

[Balisong]

It's definitely had an impact on me. I was already transitioning to TDA for carrying due to transitioning to AIWB carry. But this has shaken my faith in the industry. I just can't grasp the stupidity of a gun company in this century not testing the crap out of their guns. Certainly drop testing from a multitude of angles and heights wouldn't be that expensive and time consuming in the scheme of new firearm R&D?? Also Sigs piss poor response to the situation has lost them a lifelong enthusiast of their products (in general).

It has also convinced me that before sending a defense gun for trigger work, even to highly thought-of smiths like Rick Holm or (until recently) Bruce Gray, I need to see a lot of research on drop/safety testing on their work. I'll probably just make do without though.

Carrying a gun is a HUGE responsibility that I don't take lightly. Settling for guns that can be discharged from a simple and relatively common drop is not a risk that is fair to anyone around you.

[Clusterfrack]

Has it also caused you to reconsider your carry position? There's a lot of ways to carry a gun that don't leave it pointed at you.

I do prefer not to cover body parts when I carry, draw, or holster. So, I carry AIWB, with a wedge that keeps the muzzle safe.

[GJM]

I do prefer not to cover body parts when I carry, draw, or holster. So, I carry AIWB, with a wedge that keeps the muzzle safe.

I wedge, but if you sit and lean forward like you might in a severe crash, I don't like the angles. Frankly, there is no carry position or holster I want a round discharging in, in a high G situation. Even it doesn't hit me, I don't want to hit a passenger or something important in the aircraft.

[Clusterfrack]

I wedge, but if you sit and lean forward like you might in a severe crash, I don't like the angles. Frankly, there is no carry position or holster I want a round discharging in, in a high G situation. Even it doesn't hit me, I don't want to hit a passenger or something important in the aircraft.

I've played with the effects of body position using a pencil in the muzzle. Since I dangle to the left, the worst case put the muzzle at an inch of inner thigh. Not saying that would make me comfortable carrying a 320, but it's good to be as safe as possible.

[JBP55]

No change here.

[taadski]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?


I appreciate everyone's efforts at bringing forth all the information about the new generations of striker pistols. Very valuable stuff and I can see how it might affect carry choices for folks. But to answer your question for me? No. I'm still quite married to the concept of having something other than a short throw trigger system (be it a Glock, a pre-tensioned striker or some safety-less single action variant) for a carry gun. My sentiments only grow stronger in that regard if we're talking about AIWB.

[BehindBlueI's]

I wedge, but if you sit and lean forward like you might in a severe crash, I don't like the angles. Frankly, there is no carry position or holster I want a round discharging in, in a high G situation. Even it doesn't hit me, I don't want to hit a passenger or something important in the aircraft.

I generally don't care for shoulder holsters, but they are a good fit for pilots and combat vehicle crew members. I recall you had a turbulence issue that coughed your gun out of the holster once, as well. Perhaps something to consider. If you have passengers behind you, a vertical doesn't flag yourself or anyone else and is extremely secure. It's also not as "dangly" and easy to get caught if you have to exit the vehicle through a tight opening (such as a "non-traditional" exit after a crash) I've never been a pilot, but as a tank driver & commander I quickly learned that the cupola opening will snag anything it can anytime you're in a hurry.

[Clusterfrack]

I appreciate everyone's efforts at bringing forth all the information about the new generations of striker pistols. Very valuable stuff and I can see how it might affect carry choices for folks. But to answer your question for me? No. I'm still quite married to the concept of having something other than a short throw trigger system (be it a Glock, a pre-tensioned striker or some safety-less single action variant) for a carry gun. My sentiments only grow stronger in that regard if we're talking about AIWB.

The difference between trigger travel of a Glock and some TDA guns isn't that great.

Glock: 5.5 lbs, 0.49" travel

Sig p320: 7 lbs, 0.4" travel

HK p30: DA 11lbs, SA 2lbs; DA: 0.55", SA: 0.25" travel

[Mas]

When we look at safe holster/muzzle angles if our handgun should somehow discharge when in the holster, we need to consider more than line of trajectory. Muzzle blast, particularly from an open-muzzle-area holster, is also a consideration.

Take a slab of meat. Put it next to the muzzle parallel with line of bore and out of the way of the bullet itself. Fire one round from your carry load. See what it does to the meat adjacent to the muzzle blast.

[spinmove_]

*Looks down at G19 at 3:00*

Yes. Yes indeed it has. And it has only solidified my decision to carry this particular pistol, especially since it's outfitted with a Gadget. I can't afford to be a beta tester and so I won't be one. I'll continue to carry this until a better solution comes along. It would have to take something pretty remarkable and extremely vetted and tested to unseat my G19, especially considering I'm looking to get some backup copies of it here soon.


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[holmes168]

The recent news has definitely changed my opinion on my choice of pistol. I am in the process of liquidating my current pistol collection in favor of all Glocks. I like the added safety of the SCD and feel like my skill level is best suited to the striker fired pistol- not just mine, but my most important people in life. I may buy some guns to shoot later on, but Glocks will be for business.
I really appreciate this forum more than ever.

[jwperry]

I spend a lot of time commuting. Years ago I was rear-ended on a country road; '89 Chevy Corsica(me) was crushed with full airbag deployment by a RAM 1500. The other driver was at fault (drunk and recklessly driving...in the middle of the day!) but that didn't prevent him from going hands on immediately because "I was in his way".

I always think back to that when I look at carry pistols.
1. Could the gun that I'm carrying AIWB discharge due to the impact of the airbag? I was very, very tempted to pick up a VP9 during Hk's current 4 free mag promotion(I was an early adopter of the P30 and remember the $75+ mag shortage) but I'm completely turned off by a gun that can discharge into my lap.
2. Will the gun be immediately operable when/if I need it?

I didn't have a gun(I was 19) that day and got my ass whipped. Now I have a family and don't want something similar happening and escalating to the point that I'd need a firearm to defend my family.

I've been carrying a Sig TDA for the last 4 years and will likely never change. I romanticize about a lighter pistol, especially after a day on my feet out on the water or hiking with the wife & kids, but I've never had my gun not go "bang" when I've pulled it out after any of those ventures.


Nope. I've never carried any of the new guys. Early on it was revolvers and 1911. For better then a decade, its either Glock or a BerettaTDA.

Freudian slip?

[Spats McGee]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?
Not particularly. I guess I just always figured that the phrase "drop safe" was relative, that any firearm could discharge if dropped in the right way. I also tend to stick with pretty widely used guns, on the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that if there was a significant problem (included but not limited to drop safety), I would have uncovered it in researching for that particular purchase.

[CCT125US]

Short answer is no. However, I stick to Hk LEM and time tested designs. Couldn't get too excited over the VP9 even.

[Totem Polar]

Sort of: events just reminded me (again) that big corporations typically don't have my personal best interests at heart. So only stuff that is proven. Seeing video'd drops on current Gen Glocks makes me content with those–and vetted wheelies–so long as the Gs have a gadget since I've been flirting with AIWB in training.

[BWT]

I honestly thought this was a hurdle that modern firearms had conquered.

I figured when people said drop-safe; it truly was. Kind of like seat belts in cars.

Now? I'm happy I'm carrying Glocks because of how many organizations that do test firearms that carry Glocks as well.

God Bless,

Brandon

[BehindBlueI's]

Freudian slip?

Derp. I meant Sig. Was talking about the M9 in the office.

[jwperry]

Derp. I meant Sig. Was talking about the M9 in the office.

Your training journal is one of the ones I follow (I shoot Sigs too, I try to see if I can pick up tips/tricks/common issues from other shooters with the same platform) so your post gave me a "huh?!?" moment reading it.

[Jared]

No, hasn't changed what I carry, that was already a Beretta TDA.

The 320 thing really makes me appreciate and understand the importance of thoroughly tested designs. As far as Canik, I never really was all that interested in that thing, nor did I think it had any real future as a duty/carry piece to begin with. The Sig thing smarts so much because they are a popular maker in the defensive/LE use world.

Regarding the VP9 and PPQ mallet thing....that's something to think about for sure if the FPB gets stuck. Hey, I guess those Beretta FPBs that protrude from the slide and allow you to visually verify they are working aren't so stupid after all.

[Mjolnir]

The SIG debacle has me rethinking things. My favorite shooter is the H&K VP9.

I also like the P2000 LEM TLG but I had graduated to "easier, faster shooter".

I'm beta testing the P10C and I like it but is it a "Czech VP9"? Kinda.

I shot a Bruce Gray triggered P320C today and I see the appeal.

I now have a Cajun Gun Works CZ P-07.

Waiting for an Appendix Holster.

Also picked up a Gen5 Model 19 after handling it and, very importantly, the "NY1/'-'"-type trigger pull.

So, yeah, some things are in motion even if it's not a Conscious Decision. I don't go around thinking "this thing has a greater chance of hurting me" but there is at some level an awareness that 1911-simulated trigger pulls require external (preferably, for me, frame-mounted) safeties .

Gadgets are STRONGLY recommended and I'll not purchase another fully tensioned striker-fired pistol. But they sure are fun to shoot!


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[MGW]

Yes. I've thought about it a lot. I haven't completely decided how it's going to impact what I carry every day though.

[45dotACP]

I actually chose a Beretta switch before this whole thing with SIG. I was a fan of Glocks, but no safety in a gun carried appendix was a no go.

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[GJM]

Not particularly. I guess I just always figured that the phrase "drop safe" was relative, that any firearm could discharge if dropped in the right way. I also tend to stick with pretty widely used guns, on the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that if there was a significant problem (included but not limited to drop safety), I would have uncovered it in researching for that particular purchase.

He is my idea of "drop safe." If wearing the pistol in a holster, if I can survive the impact, the pistol should not discharge in the holster.

[Doc_Glock]

The Sig thing has made me more distrustful than ever. And happy I never stopped carrying Glocks.

The Mallet made me sell a VP9 and consider going to all P99s decocked for the Walther. And happy I never stopped carrying Glocks.

My current Beretta affairs have been fun, but every time I pick up the Glock after some Beretta time, it just feels so small, light and handy (and yes, kinda flimsy). And I am happy I never stopped carrying Glocks

So, no, I haven't reconsidered my carry gun all that much, I just appreciate it much more. If I were more practical I would have a major sell off and stay Glock brand Glock going forward.

I will say the PX4 is a heck of an underrated gun.

[Robinson]

No. There are reasons I like the redundant safety mechanisms on a Series 80 1911.

[L-2]

The recent drop-safe issues just reinforces my decision to really resist the urge to buy something which is too new. Although not a drop-safe issue, I've even made regrettable decisions buying a couple of Glocks in years past.

(One was the ambi-mag release Glock 21SF, since discontinued. This was the model which needed that window cut-out in the front of the magazine. Mine didn't have the mag catch mechanism fall apart, but it was just too easy to bump things on my right side which would release the mag. The other was the Glock 43, which I then bought a Ghost-brand connector, only to have Glock soon issue a free connector dropping the trigger pull weight down to its advertised 5.5 pounds.)

Other recent events around the country, if not the world, just have me glad I can basically carry nation-wide as people are just getting shot at, anywhere, anytime.

I'm usually carrying a Glock (several models from which to choose, but waiting a year or even two should I ever/even buy a Gen5); revolvers; or a 1911-type (no firing pin safety type). I do have a few SIGs, P225, P229, P226, but don't carry them too often. I've just put more time and rounds through the other three platforms over the years.

Although untested or not comnpared, to my knowledge, I never would have thought a "70 Series" 1911 might be more drop-safe than a SIG P320.

[DocGKR]

Nope. I'll keep carrying a G19 or a M&P depending on the current idiocy of California's firearms laws...

[Lester Polfus]

Nope. Still Gen 3 Glock 19's, and Smith and Wesson J-Frames. For the woods, a Gen4 Glock 20 just earned a spot on the team after a probationary period.

Those designs aren't perfect but at least we know what the issues are.

Millions of people have been trying to find ways to shoot themselves with those guns for quite a while now, so we've probably found most of then.

A Gen 5 Glock? Oh that's nice. Talk to me in 10 years.

Gen 5

[YVK]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

Well, seeing how my carry guns have hammers and safeties that meet the ANSI requirements, I don't give a damn. However, I see a rare possibility to combine some beneficial services to a shooting society-at-large with some good old capitalism as I help others evaluate their carry guns. I am planning to bring the following imported products to the market:

- HK-made rubber mallets. $12.99 apiece, really a steal for such a crucial piece of testing equipment. HK here stands for Hong Kong so I can have them made cheaper, but as long as it is red on black, no one will know.

- Italian made -30 degree drop testing fixtures. Italians have been making models of the Pisa tower forever, all they need to do is to change lean angle and extend the model to 4 feet tall. $34.99.

- Wasn't sure what to offer for Walther dead trigger after a reload issue. Figured this has to be something that is made for a forceful insertion. Somebody has a lead on a plastic dildo manufacturing outfit, let me know. Hopefully, they can change a mold to fit Walther's magwell closely.



I apologize for this levity on a technical forum. I blame Columbia Gorge wineries, I've been touring them for the last two days. My true answer is mentioned in my first sentence; however, I wouldn't hesitate to carry a Glock if I could conceal it well.

[zart312]

Even though I know the G19 with scd is safe. The 320 debacle has me considering spending some serious time with the HK45C that's in the safe.


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[Joe in PNG]

Sort of. This summer, most of the areas I carried in tended to be more of the NPE type. I was allowed to carry, but I couldn't let it be known I was carrying, and the standard gun under shirt wouldn't work.
So, for the most part I toted a Shield in the pocket. Which is fine- I shoot it fairly well. But I would prefer a gun that was more similar to my Beretta 92's, and held a few more BB's.
A PX4SC may be the ticket, if I can find one.

[Trooper224]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

No.

[Trooper224]

No.

A while back I was into the PPQ. If I was still carrying that I might have cause to rethink. Since I've settled on the Beretta 92 as my CCW of choice this has all given me little pause. My only concern is over which gun my agency will go with, the 320 or the G17/G5. When all is said and done, I'll have to carry it for maybe a year and a half, then it's adios big blue crew. After retirement I doubt I'll even look at a striker fired pistol again.

[Bucky]

No, not recent events. When I switched to AIWB carry, it made me leery of any gun that had enough stored energy to fire the gun, including 1911s, which I'm quite fond of. It was the reason I went back to Beretta. Admittedly, I do sometimes carry the G19 like that now, as well. If I could only have a 92 Compact with Trijicon HDs and an INCOG holster.

[Hambo]

I spend lots of time in the air, and could easily visualize a high G situation. I would really hate to survive a crash, and have my pistol discharge in my appendix holster because of some malfunction, like a dirty pistol with a gummed up firing pin safety not working that day.

For guys who expect to defy gravity on a regular basis, you pilots are a pessimistic lot. ;)

Nothing has changed for me because I'm still in the gloriously anachronistic, all metal, pre-Glock years. What has changed is that I've learned a lot about how the various striker fired pistols work while here on P-F. With that in mind I would pass on pre-tensioned striker designs if I was ever of a mind to switch to something other than 92s.

[HCountyGuy]

Nah, still carrying my P229R.

After Sig's unsatisfactory response to the P320 issue I've considered hocking it for a Glock 34 or P30 LEM as a "screw you guys", but I feel too invested in this particular gun to part with it.

[Lon]

Nope. My P-07 is still my go to pistol. Although, to be honest, I got a bit lazy this summer and carried the G43 most of the time.

[DacoRoman]

I feel validated not going with a fully precocked striker design (first ppq, then vp9, then 320) and sticking to my "safe action" Glocks for concealed carry, esp. since I mostly carry aiwb.

When I posted my concerns years ago, when the ppq came out, that I would rather carry a fully precocked striker gun in an OWB duty type holster only, I was met with arguments that I was being silly.

I hadn't even thought about potential failures with drop tests. I just didn't want to be a "bad sear" from the gun going off in my groin. Unlikely, but definitely a "it's not the odds but the stakes" type of nightmare scenario.

I'd just rather have more inherent safety margin built into the platform and put in more dry fire reps on the gun if the trigger pull quality is the concern.

[breakingtime91]

Even though I know the G19 with scd is safe. The 320 debacle has me considering spending some serious time with the HK45C that's in the safe.


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Glock passed all the same tests the 320 failed. It is no less safe to carry than a da/sa from a mechanical standpoint

[ralph]

Yes, it has caused me to rethink quite a few things, luckily for me I have three pistols which can be considered "safer" for carry. A gen4,g19, a CZ P10c, and a HK USPc with a light LEM trigger. Of the three, I'm leaning more to the HK. I recently got a holster for it, and need to spend some time at the range practicing drawing and firing with it. I'm also going to change the sights as well. I have a VP9, that I bought not long after they came out, it's a good pistol, but I always had trouble carrying it as for me, it seems the grip is just too long, and my g19 was just so much easier to carry. Maybe that was a good thing, considering all that's come out within the last few weeks. As it is, I 'm thinking I'm going to trade the VP9 in a few months, maybe for a gen 5 g19, but, I want to wait awhile and see how they shake out, especially with how they eject cases.. But, I think from this point on, no more fully tensioned strikers for me...

[hufnagel]

about the only thing events make me question (slightly) is the spring changes I made. for my HK P-series guns they all have the lighter FPBS, and for my 442 I put a Wolff spring kit in.

[olstyn]

No reconsideration/reevaluation here, but I do feel lucky/thankful that for some reason, as a fledgling gun owner, I gravitated toward DA/SA and haven't deviated from it in the years since.

[jeremy_[]

Too much time and money for me to invest to replace my G17. Have there really been wide spread problems with a Glock or evem M&P and XD failing drop tests? I see anecdotal evidence but not anything common. If I personally were to replace the Glock it would be a P99 or a TDA with a solid service record and supply of parts (which kind of disqualifies the P99). Logistics and service record are more important to me than actually liking the gun.

[Wondering Beard]

Let's see ... G17 in AIWB holster with wedge ... I'm good.

I'm thinking about trying out a P30 with LEM because 1) I'm curious about that trigger system and 2) I wonder if the "more rounded" slide might help in concealment vs the very square Glock slide. Those reasons have nothing to do with "safety" though.

[Duelist]

Proven designs that are truly drop safe only. Beretta 92, S&W 3913 & 642, G26. Mostly I'm carrying the G26 because of the total package it offers. SCD existence meant that I actually bought a Glock.

[TexasSiegfried]

Same here, no reconsideration

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[XXXsilverXXX]

Considering I carry either a shield in the pocket or a p2000, no not at all.
Do we have a actual list of striker guns that are drop safe?
I am more curious though if the Vp9 is not drop safe?

[LSP552]

No, not really. My serious carry pistols have been TDA SIGs or Glocks for the last 30+ years. I have swapped back and forth many times over the years looking for incremental improvements. I'd don't mix and match between the two, but typically go all in for a year or more.

I've never been one to consider jumping into a platform for serious business until is has been proven under harsh conditions and in service with significant experience in the real world. The P320 is proof that is a wise thing. Several agencies adopted it and the military accepted it. But sometimes things take time to shake out.

Based on SIG's handling of the 320 issue AND the quality of some P series guns Ive seen recently, I'm really considering jumping down the Beretta hole for TDA.....

[Amp]

Sticking with my 642, G17 and 1911 Gov't Models.

[GJM]

Isn't there quite a bit of variability in how drop safe different 1911 models are?

[Greg]

Recent events have not influenced my choices because I've never had an interest in any fully cocked striker designs.

TANSTAAFL is not an airbase in Germany.


"Isn't there quite a bit of variability in how drop safe different 1911 models are?"

I think a lot of the different makes of 1911s are more of a limitation on their carry worthiness. Something from a 3rd world country like Turkey, Philipines or Yonkers NY should be looked at with a critical eye.

[LOKNLOD]

Yes--I'm feeling good about my decision to go back to carrying a G19 or 43. (Even though the p320c offers a bit of a performance advantage, I found the Glock easier to carry. )

Now that I've determined the 320 is not drop safe, they are shelved until I'm confident the solution is both safe and reliable.

For me, this issue underscores why not to be an early adopter.

This is almost exactly where I'm at - I hadn't swapped to carrying the 320 yet; I had just gotten it set up to were I was about to start, the week before the all the news hit.

Once they're "fixed" i'm not sure what i'll do with them. I do really like the way they shoot for me, but I'm also shooting my 2 G19.4s very well (need to quantify that with some drills, but my static range trip was successful). And if the 19 really is the "one ring to rule them all" in terms of size, functionality, and shootability for me, then why be a special sigflake? Plus I've got enough Glocks, mags, and parts already to last me to the end of time. Bonus points for gadget existence.

Beyond that, it has really piqued my interest in the very specific details of how the gun's mechanical innards are working. I was always more interested than at a superficial "pull trigger, make pew-pew" level, but I've been digging in a bit deeper to try to understand the nuances of the interactions between all the parts.

[LangdonTactical]

Well, it would be no surprise to anyone that it will not change what I carry at all. But then everyone knows how I feel about all of this. I am fully comfortable with my choice of handguns for carry, competition, night stand gun, etc.

No change for me :)

[Mjolnir]

Let's see ... G17 in AIWB holster with wedge ... I'm good.

I'm thinking about trying out a P30 with LEM because 1) I'm curious about that trigger system and 2) I wonder if the "more rounded" slide might help in concealment vs the very square Glock slide. Those reasons have nothing to do with "safety" though.

Interestingly, your intuition is correct. The cross section of H&K pistols is such that it's easier to conceal than the essentially rectangular cross section of the Glock. That's one thing I like about the CZ P10C & VP9 - they are very difficult to see in the AIWB Carry mode. And, as our very own TLG proved (and I've confirmed) the large H&K45 can easily be carried AIWB (though the floor plates are an issue in the magazines).

P2000 LEM (TLG)
P30 LEM (TLG)

Both are superb choices and once you INGRAIN (I have not yet) pressing the trigger at a constant velocity it's fine. I do it maybe just over half the time. But I'm working on that.


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[zart312]

Glock passed all the same tests the 320 failed. It is no less safe to carry than a da/sa from a mechanical standpoint

I realize that which is why I still carry the Glock. It's a mental thing is all.


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[breakingtime91]

I realize that which is why I still carry the Glock. It's a mental thing is all.


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completely get it. I carried a lem for over two years for that reason.

[JHC]

Its made me really look toward well tested and utilized platforms. Glock and 92fs seem like two of the most used and tested firearms on our side of the pond. Makes me consider just sticking with those two for the foreseeable future.

This. Seeing that you can't trust a major company like Sig to release a drop safe design at this point time drives your point home to me.

Also I am much more suspicious of fully tensioned striker design, most of which have not had many years and huge numbers of users in hard use.

[GJM]

Hopefully Tom will be posting soon, but I believe it is more complicated than just fully tensioned or partially tensioned, when it comes to design, and redundancy in safety systems.

[Mjolnir]

Hopefully Tom will be posting soon, but I believe it is more complicated than just fully tensioned or partially tensioned, when it comes to design, and redundancy in safety systems.

Agreed. I find the VP9 to be fine from a drop perspective.

I DO recognize (and did from the first time I dry fired it in the store before purchasing) that the trigger function is LESS FORGIVING than a Glock. Folks at the brand-specific website don't get that - same with the CZ FORUM dudes with the latest aftermarket P10C triggers that remove all but about 2 mm of pretravel according to a few who own and installed them... [emoji102]

[JHC]

I wedge, but if you sit and lean forward like you might in a severe crash, I don't like the angles. Frankly, there is no carry position or holster I want a round discharging in, in a high G situation. Even it doesn't hit me, I don't want to hit a passenger or something important in the aircraft.

I don't take muzzle angles while standing static seriously at all. It is just too obvious IMO, that once the contortions get "dynamic" all bets are off from any holster position. I too work from OWB 3:00 for most live fire.

[JHC]

Hopefully Tom will be posting soon, but I believe it is more complicated than just fully tensioned or partially tensioned, when it comes to design, and redundancy in safety systems.

It may be but I'll give them 10 years and see.

[Wondering Beard]

Interestingly, your intuition is correct. The cross section of H&K pistols is such that it's easier to conceal than the essentially rectangular cross section of the Glock. That's one thing I like about the CZ P10C & VP9 - they are very difficult to see in the AIWB Carry mode. And, as our very own TLG proved (and I've confirmed) the large H&K45 can easily be carried AIWB (though the floor plates are an issue in the magazines).

On me, the squared back of the slide is the part that prints the most AIWB, so it's good to read that the HK slide might alleviate that (it's still individual body dependent).


P2000 LEM (TLG)
P30 LEM (TLG)

Both are superb choices and once you INGRAIN (I have not yet) pressing the trigger at a constant velocity it's fine. I do it maybe just over half the time. But I'm working on that.


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The thing I imagine I would have to work on with an LEM P30 is to avoid 'shortstroking' the trigger on the second shot. I'm so used to 1911s and Glocks and that short reset that it would take some work to get good with the LEM but, then again, working with a long stroke and long return might help with my marksmanship and trigger control in general.

Sorry for the thread drift, and to get back to the topic at hand, we've had some solid guns, safety-wise, for a long time and it seems we (in this forum) either never left them or are going back to them. If anything needs to be reconsidered it's the ease with which we go for new gun designs.

[breakingtime91]

On me, the squared back of the slide is the part that prints the most AIWB, so it's good to read that the HK slide might alleviate that (it's still individual body dependent).



The thing I imagine I would have to work on with an LEM P30 is to avoid 'shortstroking' the trigger on the second shot. I'm so used to 1911s and Glocks and that short reset that it would take some work to get good with the LEM but, then again, working with a long stroke and long return might help with my marksmanship and trigger control in general.

Sorry for the thread drift, and to get back to the topic at hand, we've had some solid guns, safety-wise, for a long time and it seems we (in this forum) either never left them or are going back to them. If anything needs to be reconsidered it's the ease with which we go for new gun designs.

hardest part of shooting a lem is turning off your ego when shooting around others with a timer.

[M2CattleCo]

I don't know if I reconsidered my carry choice, but I definitely reevaluated it.

Still good with the Glock 34 and 43.

[fixer]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

Yep...throw in the Cameon Eisenzimmer incident...

I'm preparing to go full TDA or LEM.

Rushing in to a new, from scratch, platform to be a beta tester isn't going to happen. Only thoroughly tested platforms are allowed for me and mine.

Even then all it takes is some manufacturing goofs to turn something that was proven into a life-altering liability. No thanks. So I'm looking at platforms that have some layers of protection in them.

Glock is a proven platform now...what happens if their tabbed safety has a screw up because they outsourced it (or some other root cause)?

The downside? I'm just gonna have to get over the DA hump.

[MSparks909]

Just reaffirms notions that I already held. While I truly enjoy shooting and owning TDAs, for me, the single largest benefit I perceive with a TDA gun is the ability to thumb the hammer while re-holstering AIWB. When I go to the range, I'm live firing out of my appendix rigs. When I do local ZSA matches, I run them in my carry gear and clothes. I'll easily draw and re-holster 50-100 times each range trip. Thumbing the back of the slide is second nature now and is a major comfort provider for me.

I don't point guns at people for a living and while I truly appreciate, agree with and often tout the benefits of the first long DA shot, that is secondary in importance to my specific carry requirements. I carry TDAs probably 80% of the time, but I also own a lot of Glock support gear and holsters. Glocks (when equipped with a SCD) are the only striker fired guns I will own and occasionally carry.

[1986s4]

No change for me, classic SIG DA/SA or S&W revolver. The only striker pistol I have been currently considering has been the VP9, now that's out so a P2000 LEM seems the way to go. I handled a P320 in the shop a few years ago and I found it cheap feeling, an immediate turn off. I was disappointed that the 320 was chosen over the Glock and I don't own a Glock either but I respect their track record.

[Trukinjp13]

I am carrying a px4cc. So I have not changed. But that is do to having a drop safe weapon. It has made me poke around and see about my p-10c though. I like having a tabbed trigger. It also makes me think of the xd series and the hated grip safety.

It is something more people should be aware of or pay attention to. I do not care how good you think you are. SHIT HAPPENS. Also how many train other people on there weapons? So what about the beginner whose hands you put it in? Are they never going to drop it?



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[BobLoblaw]

I didn't buy a 320, so no change. I was already digging the PX4CC before all this. Also, the VP9 does not discharge when dropped so I'm not selling.

[breakingtime91]

Do trigger jobs on DA/SA guns impact their safety features like things like that effect glocks?

[gtmtnbiker98]

I'm still running my P320 and will send them in to be repaired once afforded the opportunity.

[CanineCombatives]

Nope, nothing changed, no cause for re-evaluation either.

[fixer]

Do trigger jobs on DA/SA guns impact their safety features like things like that effect glocks?

Taken to an extreme, I'd say yes especially in SA.

[XXXsilverXXX]

Tom_Jones
I understood almost nothing of that but it makes me feel better about a glock, and somewhat about a vp9... but
19665

[MSparks909]

Do trigger jobs on DA/SA guns impact their safety features like things like that effect glocks?

Proper trigger jobs will not compromise safety features of a DA/SA gun. My PX4 Mod 4s all have trigger bars by EL and I dropped one of them repeatedly onto the cocked hammer on my wooden deck from a height of about 5'. The hammer never fell, but had it, it would have been stopped by the half cock notch and the firing pin never would have moved forward due to the firing pin block.

Watch EL's video of him dropping his "Langdon Special" 92 onto concrete...his gun has a full trigger job and even after quite a few drops it didn't discharge the primer because all of the safety features were left in proper working order.

Beretta, Sig and HK TDAs are all extremely safe guns that *will not* discharge a round unless the trigger is pulled. Period. I'm not familiar with TDA CZs beyond my Shadow 2, but that is a gamer gun that lacks a firing pin safety. I'd like to get my hands on a 75/SP01 and maybe a P07 eventually. Even though I lack hands on experience, I would lump CZs in the same category as Beretta, Sig and HK in terms of quality and safety.

[Clusterfrack]

Actually, Tom--I thought it was an excellent and very clear post. Maybe worth putting a sticky.

[45dotACP]

Isn't there quite a bit of variability in how drop safe different 1911 models are?Depends on how often you change firing pin springs. Change them the same time as recoil springs and use either a lightweight firing pin or a 9mm/38 super pin like a lot of companies do then you're okay with a series 70.

Series 80 guns are as drop safe as any Glock, Beretta or HK. When I carried a 1911, I ran a series 80 just for that.

On a series 70 or 80, unless you break the sear nose off your gun, the hammer will just fall to half cocked if it's dropped and the hammer slips the sear for whatever reason (usually an irresponsible trigger job, but hey, irresponsible trigger jobs are why we're having this conversation)

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[holmes168]

My apologies. I'm not a verbally/textually gifted person and I could/should have done a better job explaining things in that wall of text. I'm sure it doesn't help that I "invent" terms to describe things and then never fully describe them. :)

Great post- I've read it a couple times and understood it. Thank you for explaining.

[karandom]

The recent conversations have come at an interesting time with regards to my view on what I should be my platform of choice.

I have West German Sig P226 as bed stand gun for years that has been rock solid, but only recently moved to a permissive state where I could get a my CCW. I starting carrying a Walther PPS M2 and a primary driver of the selection was the "pin" that sticks out the back when pulling the trigger. It made me feel much better on the reholster. I also decided to pick up a Sig P320 after much deliberation to have a more shootable striker gun at the range to compliment the Walther. I shot the 320 well and enjoyed it, but the Lucky Gunner video on his decision to moved to TDA guns had me starting to think along the same lines.

I was considering getting a Sig P225 to carry AIWB since it was single stack with a hammer and then the Sig 320 news came out. I am deeply disappointed with how Sig is handling this and won't be supporting them with my dollars going forward so the Sig P225 is out.

I want to take a look at the Gen 5 Glock to see if I can stomach it any more then the gen 3/4 as I never liked shooting them, but with a Gadget its something I will consider. Otherwise I really don't know where I'll be heading as things shake out.

[JHC]

I think a lot of people are putting too much emphasis on partially tensioned vs. fully tensioned strikers. The Glock isn't safe because it has a partially tensioned striker (the partially tensioned striker has sufficient energy to detonate most primers) but rather due to the features of the "Safe Action"® system -- features that can be (but seldom are) completely reimplemented in any striker fired design -- that form redundant "safeties" that require multiple "failures" before the gun can discharge.

Using generic terminology, the important features of a mechanically "drop safe" striker design, IMO, are:

1. A supported/blocked sear that can NOT release the striker unless the trigger is moved.


With Glocks, the "sear" is the the trigger bar. The trigger bar is supported by the so-called drop-safety "shelf" of the trigger housing. The trigger bar can not be displaced downward (and release the striker) unless the trigger is moved sufficiently rearward to clear the "shelf". Designs like the VP9, P320, and PPQ don't have this. I don't have a PPQ, but both the P320 and VP could have this with slightly different trigger bar designs. However, this feature requires:

2. A properly designed and functional trigger "safety". It's important to understand that trigger "safeties" are not, and should not be thought of as, traditional safeties -- because they aren't. The purpose they serve is to prevent inertial movement of the trigger -- that's it. When I say that the trigger safety needs to be properly designed, I mean that it needs to intercept/interrupt trigger motion before any of the normal actions of trigger motion happen, i.e., that movement can't result in the sear being unblocked/unsupported or the firing pin block being disengaged. Another aspect of "properly designed" is that the distribution of the mass above/below the trigger safety pivot point are such that any inertial event that would cause the trigger to move, would also cause the trigger safety to remain engaged.


While it's not exactly fair to use as an example since it is a prototype and was never actually released, the SIG P320 prototype tabbed trigger safety is an example of one that's not properly designed. Without depressing the trigger safety, the the trigger moves sufficiently rearward to fully disengage the firing pin block. No es bueno.

3. A firing pin block -- preferably one that is directly acted on by the trigger bar and not another intermediate part (due to the attendant complications with regard to inertial events).


This is, in my opinion, the last line of defense and should only prevent a discharge if there were significant part(s) failures elsewhere in the gun.

Now, a supported sear that requires trigger motion before the striker can be released, typically means that you now have to operate the trigger to disassemble the pistol -- and there have been a LOT of unintentional discharges because of this. The way that SIG and HK designed the takedown of the P320 and VP9 are great. They have a take down lever that can only be rotated if the slide is to the rear and the magazine has been removed. If the redesigned trigger bars I mentioned above were added to these guns, this would no longer be the case and the triggers would need to be operated (with the slide locked to the rear as the takedown lever is rotated).

Does a supported sear design require you to operate the trigger for disassembly? No. It's possible to design a gun such that it has a supported sear and a VP9/P320 trigger-less takedown method. There are a number of different ways to accomplish this. One way is instead of having the sear be displaced by the action of the takedown lever, you have the entire sear housing (or trigger housing for a Glock) lowered a few hundredths of an inch when the takedown lover is rotated. Another is having a mechanism in the slide itself such that you can rotate the striker assembly so that it doesn't re-engage the sear when the slide goes forward. There are many more. Before anyone tells me how either of these ideas won't work or point out a "fatal flaw" in the idea, please don't. I'm not presenting every possible detail of the designs here, just enough to get my point across -- there is a lot more detail, I just lack the time and desire to fully describe it now. :)

Coincidentally, it is possible to do the same thing with a Glock -- disassemble it without operating the trigger with the slide forward -- you just have to prevent the trigger bar from popping up as the connector is displaced inboard when the slide returns forward. It's easier to do on an unmodified Gen5 because of the right side slide stop lever. :)

I could write/talk a lot more about this sort of thing, but my typing skills are terrible and I'm out of free time.

Also, as an aside, I should point out that despite the trademarks filings, the thing that makes a Glock a Glock is not the external shape/appearance -- it's the internal parts and design. I say this to only point out that if someone puts aftermarket components (especially firing mechanism related components) into a Glock, it's not really a Glock anymore. There are plenty of aftermarket trigger components available that alter/reduce things to the point that the internal "safeties" no longer truly exist or exist in name only.

As usual, I'm just some guy on the internet with an opinion. Many, if not most, people will disagree with me. I'm OK with that. :cool:

I'm sure your right. The newest wave of fully tensioned needs aging is all.

"Good pounding this. Let's see who pounds longest." - The Iron Duke.

[Doublestack45]

No. I have been carrying a G19 in an Eidolon that works perfectly for my lifestyle. I have Gadgets for every copy, and have resisted any desire to change the trigger components in a time tested gun design. Kind of boring, but that's fine with me.

[Quantrill]

As long as that aging includes an evolution to a supported sear that mechanically blocks its motion unless the trigger is pulled and that trigger sports a properly designed and functioning trigger "safety" tab, I'm all for it.

I have a suspicion that it won't, though. :)

I've enjoyed your insights.
Is the sear on the M&P supported? Does the Apex sear change this one way or the other?

[RJ]

Definitely.

It's been an eye-opening year, starting with Mallet Boy (if Enel's user name is not refactored during this year's Pfestivus, I will be disappoint :cool:) and then with the whole drop gate Sig affair.

I was set to buy a new SFA gun in 2015 to replace my M&P. The Walther PPQ felt great but trigger was a bit too light. The Sig 320 was evaluated next; but it seemed to me at the time that perhaps the design was unproven. So I opted to buy a VP9 for training and competition, possibly to carry.

After realizing the VP9 was a mite too big for my 5'6" frame, I bought a Walther PPS M2. Great CCW, and had a SCD-like thingy on the end of the striker. However using it at a Tac Con for the match convinced me maybe 6/7/8+1 was a bit light in mag capacity.

Enter the LEM P30SK; 10+1 rounds and a light direct press with a wall. Again, putting it through its paces in a Givens class in June was a bit of a shock; I could not efficiently deal with the reloads and I performed poorly on the LEM. And for 10+1 it was around 30 ozs.

So, I'm still shooting the VP9 at matches and carrying the P30SK.

Even I have figured out this is no bueno.

Either a I need a VP9SK for carry or I need to buy a say P2000 LEM for USPSA.

A third possibility is a G19 Gen 5 with a SCD. But I likely need to give up the VP9. I can see shooting a G19 in USPSA P, as well as carrying it (duh).

Assuming the Gen 5 G19 doesn't develop any significant teething issues, and I can find one to shoot, I can see trading my VP9 for one in 3-6 months, putting a Gadget on it and getting on with training and matches. I'd keep the P30SK because it's been commandeered by my wife as 'her' gun.

[Xrslug]

Depends on how often you change firing pin springs. Change them the same time as recoil springs and use either a lightweight firing pin or a 9mm/38 super pin like a lot of companies do then you're okay with a series 70.

Series 80 guns are as drop safe as any Glock, Beretta or HK. When I carried a 1911, I ran a series 80 just for that.

On a series 70 or 80, unless you break the sear nose off your gun, the hammer will just fall to half cocked if it's dropped and the hammer slips the sear for whatever reason (usually an irresponsible trigger job, but hey, irresponsible trigger jobs are why we're having this conversation)

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And this (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23910-Plug-in-for-Ned-s-1911-wizardry) solves the problem of what happens if the sear nose breaks off. A very cool invention by a forum member and relevant to EDC drop safety issues.

[boing]

The M&P does not have a blocked sear. It's a spring-loaded teeter-totter affair, with what looks like a pretty good balance of mass about the axis pin. I'd say inertial release of the striker due to the mass of the sear is basically impossible, especially considering the spring load, and the loading by the striker itself. Then again, lots of people thought the 320 was okey-dokey, too.

If the trigger bar were to move upward due to an impact, that would trip the sear, but the end of the trigger bar is retained in the trigger mechanism housing to prevent movement in that direction. The trigger bar would have to break or bend for it to dislodge the sear in that way.

The P320 problem didn't influence my recent move to TDA, but it didn't hurt it, either. :)

[1slow]

He is my idea of "drop safe." If wearing the pistol in a holster, if I can survive the impact, the pistol should not discharge in the holster.

My definition as well.

In 1989 I highsided a RMX 250 offroad cycle at 50+mph. 1911 in Milt Sparks detachable (custom) thumb break stayed in place. I was able to limp off barely. Order of impact was head, left shoulder, right forearm.

A retention holster is not a bad idea on horses, cycles etc...

If am in a crash, fall, get thrown etc... and I can still move, if I need a pistol, knife etc... It should be there in working order and not have discharged.

[rdtompki]

Recent events (in my town) have convinced me to practice more with my EDC.

[holmes168]

Adding to what I wrote earlier- there will not be any modification to any EDC pistol, trainer or backup that doesn't make the pistol safer, outside of sights. I can explain why I need better sights on a Glock. I can explain that the SCD makes the gun safer. In this day and age, I'm not sure how much more would be accepted at court IF I ever have to go. Plus as Tom Jones states- the internals of (insert brand here) is what make a pistol a pistol. Once a non OEM trigger is added or a connector or whatever- you have changed the internals of the pistol.
All of the news has made me regret purchasing other brands than Glock- it's been a costly lesson. I'm not sure I'll ever buy a pistol that isn't Glock or Beretta. Maybe S&W but I've noticed there doesn't seem to be a lot of love for them on this forum?? I will stay with striker fired pistols for the most part. The platform needs to be easy to shoot for my wife- she isn't planning to hit the range weekly or monthly to learn how to use a hammer gun.
Great thread, it's why I joined this forum.

[Wondering Beard]

hardest part of shooting a lem is turning off your ego when shooting around others with a timer.

Challenge accepted :-)

[RevolverRob]

The short answer to the OP.

No. I switched to LEM P30s last year and thus I am happy with my current carry setup.

Prior to that I ran Smith revolvers, Kahrs of various flavors, and 1911s. All of which require the trigger to be stroked fully to set the gun off (don't know about the new Kahr Gen2s though).


No. There are reasons I like the redundant safety mechanisms on a Series 80 1911.


Sticking with my 642, G17 and 1911 Gov't Models.


Isn't there quite a bit of variability in how drop safe different 1911 models are?


Depends on how often you change firing pin springs. Change them the same time as recoil springs and use either a lightweight firing pin or a 9mm/38 super pin like a lot of companies do then you're okay with a series 70.

Series 80 guns are as drop safe as any Glock, Beretta or HK. When I carried a 1911, I ran a series 80 just for that.

On a series 70 or 80, unless you break the sear nose off your gun, the hammer will just fall to half cocked if it's dropped and the hammer slips the sear for whatever reason (usually an irresponsible trigger job, but hey, irresponsible trigger jobs are why we're having this conversation)

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My next transition, will depend on if I start doing field work in bear country again (high possibility). If I do, a 1911/2011 platform in .45 for bear country and in 9mm for EDC not in the field will be my default setup. I like my LEM P30s quite a bit and will enjoy them for awhile, but eventually, I'm going back to a 1911. Because I've realized that of all the various platforms I've known and loved over the years, I like the Series 80/Schwartz Safety type 1911s for carry the most. The redundant safety systems, the simplicity of the inner workings, the ability to shoot them fast and accurately, the plethora and availability of parts, and the quantity of qualified and excellent gunsmiths to service them, make it hard to consider much else.

And with that said, my answer to the OP is - yes. The failure of the 320, VP9, Canik, etc. have all caused me to reconsider my long-term carry choices. Currently, my LEMs are here to stay, but I'll be moving back to the 1911, because of redundant safety features, ergonomics, and availability of parts in the future.

[45dotACP]

The short answer to the OP.

No. I switched to LEM P30s last year and thus I am happy with my current carry setup.

Prior to that I ran Smith revolvers, Kahrs of various flavors, and 1911s. All of which require the trigger to be stroked fully to set the gun off (don't know about the new Kahr Gen2s though).









My next transition, will depend on if I start doing field work in bear country again (high possibility). If I do, a 1911/2011 platform in .45 for bear country and in 9mm for EDC not in the field will be my default setup. I like my LEM P30s quite a bit and will enjoy them for awhile, but eventually, I'm going back to a 1911. Because I've realized that of all the various platforms I've known and loved over the years, I like the Series 80/Schwartz Safety type 1911s for carry the most. The redundant safety systems, the simplicity of the inner workings, the ability to shoot them fast and accurately, the plethora and availability of parts, and the quantity of qualified and excellent gunsmiths to service them, make it hard to consider much else.

And with that said, my answer to the OP is - yes. The failure of the 320, VP9, Canik, etc. have all caused me to reconsider my long-term carry choices. Currently, my LEMs are here to stay, but I'll be moving back to the 1911, because of redundant safety features, ergonomics, and availability of parts in the future.There's something to be said for just carrying a 1911 when you want a gun with the best, most "1911 like" trigger.

I was (and still am) really ghey for 1911 pattern guns and would be getting ready to spec out another build this winter, if I weren't fucking determined to get a production GM card. So til then, I'm loading shitloads of 9, practicing with my gamer rig and carrying a Beretta, because they offer the best combo of shootability, reliability and safety from the holster, which I'm looking for when carrying appendix.

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[theJanitor]

the Colt 1911/S&W 642 combo has been comfortable and comforting for a very long time. I don't see that changing anytime soon

[Crazy Dane]

The P320 was the reason I joined up here. In '15 I started looking for a new pistol because "reasons"* and it was here I learned of the P320. It seemed to be the hot topic so I hit the join button so I could keep up with all of the information coming in. After trying a full size range rental, I picked up a compact in 9mm. It took a few months of shooting drills to get comfortable with it. When I did, it became my daily carry with plans to pick up a second P320. Fast forward to now. When the drop safe issues came out and I was able to replicate the issue in my 320, it was a kick in the gut. I immediately went back to carrying my always faithful Colt 1991A1 Commander. Through some soul searching, the "reasons" from above and a little push from here, I ordered a Colt Combat Commander in 9mm. It came in yesterday and I'm am waiting for the rain to quit so I can get some rounds through it.
To sum up the Op's question, not only did I question the safety of my daily carry, I went out and bought a new one. Now the question is what to do with the p320? I fell in love with it but I feel betrayed by Sig. For my self, I am willing to see how the "upgrade" goes before I decide to dump it and I wont dump it until it goes back for the upgrade.

*reasons- left out as they don't related to the topic at hand and would have made a long post longer.

[ER_STL]

Eh, the recent news about various guns hasn't affected me much because I've been running a Gen3 G19 as a carry gun since I started carrying about 12 years ago. I often am lured to consider other platforms, not because of the trigger (Glock OEM triggers work fine) but because of a potential better gun-to-hand fit. Glocks simply chew me up with slide-bite and other guns will often result in a better grip overall.

That being said, the only change I'm considering right now is a move to a Gen4 G19 for the beavertail backstrap. Glocks are still uninspiring beige Toyota Camries but I'm having a hard time finding something that scores better as an EDC. M&Ps often bring a smile to my face but even at $349 I haven't been encouraged to buy one.

[scw2]

That being said, the only change I'm considering right now is a move to a Gen4 G19 for the beavertail backstrap. Glocks are still uninspiring beige Toyota Camries but I'm having a hard time finding something that scores better as an EDC. M&Ps often bring a smile to my face but even at $349 I haven't been encouraged to buy one.

If a Glock is a Toyota, the m&p is like a Honda. My default answer for what first gun to get is some flavor of a Glock 9mm, and if they don't want a Glock for whatever reason, then the other option is M&P. The p320 was another alternative option I would recommend, but I won't be doing that going forward.

[farscott]

I honestly don't know. I haven't owned an M&P for almost a decade. I'll see if I can find someone local to let me poke and prod an M&P for a bit -- like the LGS that charged me $679+tax, each, for a couple of Gen5 guns (with plastic sights). The way I figure it, I had to buy at least a little good will with that -- although counting all the free transfers I've gotten over the years, I'm probably still way ahead. :)

If you can work with a M&P .45 Compact, I can have my FFL send one to your FFL. Keep it as long as you like.

[ER_STL]

If a Glock is a Toyota, the m&p is like a Honda. My default answer for what first gun to get is some flavor of a Glock 9mm, and if they don't want a Glock for whatever reason, then the other option is M&P. The p320 was another alternative option I would recommend, but I won't be doing that going forward.

Eh, I'd say the M&P is usually more like a Hyundai or Kia. You might get a good one or you might get one that burns a quart of oil every 1k miles, with Hyundai/Kia telling you that the engine is still within specs. :D The ergonomics are so nice on them though and for whatever non-important reason I just like the look and feel of them better.

But we digress....back to more important responses. As long as the take-up can be smoothed out, I haven't found enough of a difference in the actions of most polymer triggers to really matter that much. If the design of a partially drawn trigger such as the Glock is inherently safer than one like the P320 has then I suppose I'd be inclined to stick with the Glock. I see value in a hammer-fired gun and I owned a P250 for a short while as it was fairly close in size to the G19. I haven't been able to warm up to the P07 or P2000 yet and you give up a lot of barrel length when you get into the PX4 compact. The G19 has enough going for it that finding a better fit has been tough.

[Navyguns]

What the recent problems tell me about what I carry is, I chose correctly. Also, recalls on firearms are actually pretty common. Some of the time it has become a public relations issue for said company and sometimes it hasn't. I think it is very reasonable to expect a gun a company produces is drop safe gun no matter how its dropped. Lastly, its not the consumers fault for improper engineering, testing, manufacturing and subsequent response to found problems. Scapegoating product problems on a group of people that has nothing to do with the product development in anyway is at best egregious.

[Nephrology]

Glocks, and no.

[SamAdams]

I find it interesting to read about others experience with various platforms. But I switched to Glock years ago and don't see a change on the horizon any time soon. (I did curse Glock when brass to the face was an unsolved problem for awhile). The problem with new stuff is that it's new ! I'll let others work out the bugs. Plus I have too much already invested in Glock related gear and trigger time. An alternative would have to offer significant advantages; I don't see that happening in a defensive sidearm. The Glock is a tool - - like a hammer. It works fine for me.


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[ScotchMan]

Words

It is an injustice that you don't get paid for these kinds of contributions (or maybe you do, I'm not sure who is running the show here these days). Thanks for the excellent description of Glocks and particularly vs. other designs.

Also, to those who didn't understand Tom's post, there are videos here which may help (click Safe Action near the top, this part isn't part of the URL): https://us.glock.com/technology

[Shotgun]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

No. All DA/SA here.


I spend lots of time in the air, and could easily visualize a high G situation. I would really hate to survive a crash, and have my pistol discharge in my appendix holster because of some malfunction, like a dirty pistol with a gummed up firing pin safety not working that day.

I've been thinking about this. You aren't likely to get plane-jacked by a caribou, and I don't think a brown bear wants your helicopter. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't see a criminal element lurking around on the Alaskan tundra. A 9mm doesn't do you much good in the Alaskan wild, especially when you are already carrying a rifle or your 12 gauge. I know you like your PPQ very much, but why carry that, or any striker fired pistol, when you are flying? I'm a pilot too, and I have seen maps, pens, wallets, etc float around the cabin looking weightless in turbulence. I would hate to find my striker fired pistol floating around the cabin with me due to some accident or mistake, much less be involved in a crash or forced landing. Flying where you do, it seems like you would want a large caliber revolver in the event that you needed to stop a bear from learning how Astro tastes, as nearly happened earlier this summer. Why take a risk with flying with pistols that you suspect aren't drop safe, or, as may be more apt, bounce around the cockpit safe? Be careful up there. We all like your Alaska Journal.

[OlongJohnson]

On the subject of modification, I will continue to believe that there is a big difference between deburring and smoothing, removing imperfections left by an economical manufacturing process, and changing the geometry of parts with the intent of altering how the firearm operates. Changing springs falls under the latter category. One takes the gun closer to what was in the mind of the engineers who designed it, one takes it in a completely different direction. That difference has to matter.

[ca survivor]

for the last seven years all I've carried is DA/SA in the form of USPc, P-2000, SIG 239 or the 220 and SA (1911s) was carried a Shield .45 with safety, but was soon was put to the side.

[GJM]

Cross posted in another related thread too.

Over the last day or so, I thought it would be helpful for my own evaluation process, to lay out my desired criteria in a lower 48 EDC. These are only my own criteria, and not a suggestion these are proper for others. They are not in order of importance.

Have a hammer, probably be DA/SA.

Be 9mm, but ideally also be available in .40 for possible field use.

Weigh between 20-30 ounces empty.

Hold at least 15 cartridges in 9mm.

Have a grip that draws well.

Have either Trijicon HD or similar Ameriglo sights available.

Be fast up close.

Be accurate in the 50-100 yard envelope, extra sight radius a plus as it helps my eyes at distance.

Be out long enough to be thoroughly tested with a reputation for reliability.

Be comfortable AIWB, and supported by JM.

Be from a company that is known for customer support.

[M2CattleCo]

I want all of that, but also with fullsize, compact, and subcompact single stack models with the same trigger and ergos. Glock is the only one who has done that so far. S&W just started, Walther came pretty close.

That's why I ended up with a Glock 19 and 43.

[Shotgun]

Cross posted in another related thread too.

Over the last day or so, I thought it would be helpful for my own evaluation process, to lay out my desired criteria in a lower 48 EDC. These are only my own criteria, and not a suggestion these are proper for others. They are not in order of importance.

Have a hammer, probably be DA/SA.

Be 9mm, but ideally also be available in .40 for possible field use.

Weigh between 20-30 ounces empty.

Hold at least 15 cartridges in 9mm.

Have a grip that draws well.

Have either Trijicon HD or similar Ameriglo sights available.

Be fast up close.

Be accurate in the 50-100 yard envelope, extra sight radius a plus as it helps my eyes at distance.

Be out long enough to be thoroughly tested with a reputation for reliability.

Be comfortable AIWB, and supported by JM.

Be from a company that is known for customer support.

And? What pistols meet the foregoing criteria?

[Lon]

Cross posted in another related thread too.

Over the last day or so, I thought it would be helpful for my own evaluation process, to lay out my desired criteria in a lower 48 EDC. These are only my own criteria, and not a suggestion these are proper for others. They are not in order of importance.

Have a hammer, probably be DA/SA.

Be 9mm, but ideally also be available in .40 for possible field use.

Weigh between 20-30 ounces empty.

Hold at least 15 cartridges in 9mm.

Have a grip that draws well.

Have either Trijicon HD or similar Ameriglo sights available.

Be fast up close.

Be accurate in the 50-100 yard envelope, extra sight radius a plus as it helps my eyes at distance.

Be out long enough to be thoroughly tested with a reputation for reliability.

Be comfortable AIWB, and supported by JM.

Be from a company that is known for customer support.

Other than the HDs, I'd say the CZ P-07/09 meets the criteria. Here's hoping Trijicon or Ameriglo comes out with some sights.

[MGW]

Cross posted in another related thread too.

Over the last day or so, I thought it would be helpful for my own evaluation process, to lay out my desired criteria in a lower 48 EDC. These are only my own criteria, and not a suggestion these are proper for others. They are not in order of importance.

Have a hammer, probably be DA/SA.

Be 9mm, but ideally also be available in .40 for possible field use.

Weigh between 20-30 ounces empty.

Hold at least 15 cartridges in 9mm.

Have a grip that draws well.

Have either Trijicon HD or similar Ameriglo sights available.

Be fast up close.

Be accurate in the 50-100 yard envelope, extra sight radius a plus as it helps my eyes at distance.

Be out long enough to be thoroughly tested with a reputation for reliability.

Be comfortable AIWB, and supported by JM.

Be from a company that is known for customer support.

I know the P30 was suggested in another thread. It's a pistol that's always had my attention too. Reading into your specs it sounds like you are looking for a polymer pistol but the 226 also comes close. Despite recent Sig corporate dumbassery the 226 has always been solid. Easy to shoot well, well supported, and .40 caliber versions can be found cheap if you need one. It's just about 4 ounces outside your spec range.

The 2022 doesn't come in 40 but meets every other spec. I have no experience with it.

[spinmove_]

The 2022 doesn't come in 40 but meets every other spec. I have no experience with it.

Not true. I own an SP2022 in .40S&W and have a .357SIG barrel to go with it. One of the finest out of the box DA/SA triggers I've ever shot.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[MSparks909]

Cross posted in another related thread too.

Over the last day or so, I thought it would be helpful for my own evaluation process, to lay out my desired criteria in a lower 48 EDC. These are only my own criteria, and not a suggestion these are proper for others. They are not in order of importance.

Have a hammer, probably be DA/SA.

Be 9mm, but ideally also be available in .40 for possible field use.

Weigh between 20-30 ounces empty.

Hold at least 15 cartridges in 9mm.

Have a grip that draws well.

Have either Trijicon HD or similar Ameriglo sights available.

Be fast up close.

Be accurate in the 50-100 yard envelope, extra sight radius a plus as it helps my eyes at distance.

Be out long enough to be thoroughly tested with a reputation for reliability.

Be comfortable AIWB, and supported by JM.

Be from a company that is known for customer support.

The 30oz weight restriction removes the aluminum framed CZs, Berettas and Sigs from consideration. That leaves you with polymer framed DA/SA's. As sight radius and shootability is also a concern, I tend to carry full size pistols whenever possible. I also prefer barrel lengths greater than 3.5" but YMMV. In no particular I'd say these are your options:
CZ P-07 (maybe P-09 but it has quite a long grip)
Beretta PX4 full size
HK P30/P30L
HK USP

I think the HK P30/P30L/USP will be the most accurate out of those guns, especially at distance. The USP is the least fast shooting of those guns, but it has a more squared off grip.

Of the options I listed, I would personally (and do) carry the full size PX4 or a P30/P30L.

[GJM]

I like the 226 and 92 pistols, but compared to polymer, they feel much heavier over hill and dale every day for 90 minutes or more, chasing the bird dog.

[Rex G]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

These recent things have validated my usual reluctance to be an early adopter of anything. I am still at revolver/1911/Glock, though had been tempted by Walther PPQ and PPS, and the SIG P320, for some time now. I have a new angle at which to appreciate hammers, but have always liked hammers, anyway.

I just bought a Ruger GP100, to "replace" a blued-steel S&W Model 19 that was submerged by Harvey's flood water. It joins my several other Ruger revolvers that will probably be the foundation of my daily carry after I retire from LEO-ing. (The Model 19 may well be restored, and remain among my minority of S&W revolvers.)

I have sufficient confidence that keeping fresh firing pin springs in my 1911 pistols should provide adequate safety from inertia-fire in the event of a drop.

Glocks are, well, Glocks. I do not love them, but they serve a purpose well, as a Dewalt drill serves a purpose well. Hurricane flood water does not faze them, and yes, I do know about this, so a drenching rain during daily carry or a duty shift is a walk in the park. I still wear a police badge, and firearms policy applies 24/7/365, and the "Gadget" is not an allowed modification. Even so, I am OK with the safety aspect of carrying Glocks AIWB. (That blocky slide is not so easy to hide on my skinny frame, however, at AIWB.)

Edited to add: I also used hammer-fired SIGs for thirteen years. I transitioned away from the P220 that I carried from 1991 to 1993, because the heel-clip mag release would snag on things, allowing a partial drop of the mag. I transitioned away from the P229 pistols I used from 2004 to 2015 because .40 S&W, plus the high bore axis and considerable slide mass, were becoming too much for my aging wrist to tolerate.

[pangloss]

No second thoughts here. I still carry a Glock 19, Glock 26, or a J-frame. On very rare occasions I'll carry a G17. My Glock 26 was my first carry pistol and often I still use the first holster I bought for it. I buy other brands of pistols too, but they are just to satisfy my curiosity and not for carrying.

[EVP]

No it did not effect me, but just once again showed me and reinforced my idea about carrying pistols that have been around for awhile and vetted.

I carry Glocks and HKs

I would be lying if I did not say that I have been gravitating back to my p30 LEMs. The quality and characteristics of the LEM for a carry gun have drawn me back to them.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

Yes. I had already drifted to DAO/hammer fired guns, but this latest gives me pause when thinking about the APX or new S&W M&P 2.0 compact.

[octagon]

For me the recent issues with Sig P320,Taurus,Canik and other guns or issues with them has not really changed how I feel about the guns specifically,the companies or what I carry so much as confirmed the idea to approach change carefully and only move from a known to another known rather than an unknown.

The listed guns and companies have issues as does the VP9 deactivated trigger with impact and certain generations of Glocks with certain weapon mounted lights or some Glock 19's with BTF and other guns and issues. Having carried a Glock 23 IWB at 3 o clock for over 25 years with virtually no issues and seeing various problems with Glocks and new or older guns alike when certain alterations were done(weapon mounted lights,lasers,full length guide rods in place of none etc) I just solidified my cautious approach to change for a life defending tool. Companies are in business for profit and this leads to cutting costs to make a larger profit and/or minimizing or even hiding issues that would put their product in a poor light. Nothing new and to me it isn't surprising just disappointing.

I love new cool gear,guns and ideas and I try to objectively consider new or different ideas and products as I feel that is what leads to progression. However I try and do this with caution to reduce my risk to an acceptable level for me. That means I have tried red dot sights on handguns,AIWB carry,various sight sets,WML,different ammo and calibers and shot plenty of different guns and platforms. Recently I bought an APX and P10C and traded a Glock for another P10C. Even after rigorous testing personally and attempting to read and view everything I can on the guns from multiple sources I still haven't made the switch to changing my EDC Glock 23. 3000 rounds through the P10Cs and 2100+ through the APX all without problems starts to give me encouragement to change but I am not there yet. The P10C having a very similar design to the proven Glock also helps. In the end I want improved guns,gear and skills but I don't rush into changing but cautiously evolve into it. When or if a known quantity changes to be less so I may have to change quicker but that has not been the case so far.

[Bucky]

Yes. I had already drifted to DAO/hammer fired guns, but this latest gives me pause when thinking about the APX or new S&W M&P 2.0 compact.

Call it paranoia, but there is something comforting to know if every single part in the firing mechanism were to break or malfunction, a true DA pull has no stored energy with which to fire the cartridge.

[Irelander]

Yes. This has given me pause to consider my main carry option, a Gen3 G19 with "-" connector. This all makes me wonder if I should hang on to my CZ P07 and really give it a fair shake. Is it safer than carrying my G19? That is something I'll have to decide on.

Most of my time during the work week is spent in an NPE. I have no issues with the no-lock 642 in my pocket.

[11B10]

Yes. I've ordered an HKP30SK, my first HK. "Has hammer."

Also, I'm taking more seriously Todd's advice not to mess with factory trigger parts.



You will be very pleased with your H&KP30SK. Each time I practice with my V-1 LEM, whether it's dry fire, live fire, drawing, or even cleaning the gun, I'm more impressed with everything about it.

[Jaywalker]

You will be very pleased with your H&KP30SK. Each time I practice with my V-1 LEM, whether it's dry fire, live fire, drawing, or even cleaning the gun, I'm more impressed with everything about it.

It came yesterday and I'm handling/evaluating it now. First impressions are good; trigger reach is less than that of of G19, and that's always a large concern for me. Assuming I can shoot it as well as my G19 after awhile, the G19 will show up in the P-F classified. Pics as soon as I figure out how to do it in this post-PhotoBucket world.

19919
HK P30SK v1, Light LEM

[lee n. field]

The Sig 320, Canik, Enel's mallet, and our forum's deep dive into how various pistol safety systems work, have given me a lot to think about when evaluating carry guns. You too?

Over time, these sorts of problems are not uncommon. Manufacturers fix it, life goes on.

My EDC (XDS) is the fixed design. I'm not worried.

[JHC]

Tom Jones and PF featured in this review of how a modern drop safe pistol is so.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/15/sets-glocks-apart-gun-really-safe/

[LOKNLOD]

Tom Jones and PF featured in this review of how a modern drop safe pistol is so.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/15/sets-glocks-apart-gun-really-safe/

Wait... did that guy just quote Tom and post it as an article on their page?

I may need to put my response to that in the Pfestivus thread.

[Tamara]

It's Tamara's fault for posting that on FB. :)

Wow, I got a hat-tip w/o a link, and they scraped your entire post. That's some shitty netiquette... Did they at least email you for permission?

ETA: Man, I know that Steve's blog has become a sewer since he took it big and commercial, but that's worse than I'd expect from Nathaniel F. He's generally a good dude.

[RJ]

It came yesterday and I'm handling/evaluating it now. First impressions are good; trigger reach is less than that of of G19, and that's always a large concern for me. Assuming I can shoot it as well as my G19 after awhile, the G19 will show up in the P-F classified. Pics as soon as I figure out how to do it in this post-PhotoBucket world.

19919
HK P30SK v1, Light LEM

I'll be very Interested in your thoughts between your G19 and the P30SK LEM.

[Jaywalker]

I'll be very Interested in your thoughts between your G19 and the P30SK LEM.

Okay.