SD Against Dogs

[TGS]

All,

The best choice for ammo against humans and bears is pretty well documented, particularly against humans.

How about dogs?

Reason I ask is that I'm going to start walking my dog along a canal trail in PA. With him by my side, I'm less worried about human predators and more concerned about stray dogs or other animals that might attack us. No bears or anything crazy in the area.

Using informed opinion or reasoning:

Would my 147gr HST's be fine, or should I consider using my 147gr FMJ-FP's for deeper penetration?

[agent-smith]

I'd have to say that if you wouldn't go someplace without a gun, I wouldn't go there just because you have one.

Seriously - If you're that worried about getting attacked by a dog, walk your dog someplace else rather than go there with the idea of shooting-up the place.

[LittleLebowski]

All,

The best choice for ammo against humans and bears is pretty well documented, particularly against humans.

How about dogs?

Reason I ask is that I'm going to start walking my dog along a canal trail in PA. With him by my side, I'm less worried about human predators and more concerned about stray dogs or other animals that might attack us. No bears or anything crazy in the area.

Using informed opinion or reasoning:

Would my 147gr HST's be fine, or should I consider using my 147gr FMJ-FP's for deeper penetration?

The HSTs will be fine if you can keep a cool head and accurately shoot a dog fighting your dog. The best tactic is for you to dominate any dog that comes near with your own attitude. A confrontational stance showing no fear with a commanding STOP, GET BACK! works so well.

[Savage Hands]

Consider a can of O.C. Fox Labs as well which I've learned from experience works very well on a "Pitt Bull" I sprayed that charged me while I was exiting my vehicle.

[TGS]

I'd have to say that if you wouldn't go someplace without a gun, I wouldn't go there just because you have one.

Seriously - If you're that worried about getting attacked by a dog, walk your dog someplace else rather than go there with the idea of shooting-up the place.

Umm, what? Where did you just pull this load out of?

It's not a matter of "I'm too scared to go there."

The question being asked pertains to addressing the biggest threat. On this canal trail, there's way more a chance of me having to shoot a rapid/stray animal than there is of me having to shoot a mugger, because my dog will pretty much take care of most muggers. That doesn't mean I'm bound to get in a firefight just for going there....it's not like I'm going to Juarez, Mexico.

I walk my dog around Trenton, where I'm not allowed to carry, and is WAY more dangerous. I would be walking my dog there, or here, whether I can carry or not. I'm just using my brain and trying to address the most likely threat since I carry when I can. Doesn't make much sense to carry something that addresses one unlikely threat and not another more likely threat.

And to your comment of "walk your dog someplace else rather than go there with the idea of shooting-up the place," dude, where the hell do you get off saying that? Yeah, every time I carry I'm just dreaming of "shooting the place up." And why don't you tell me where this utopia is that there's no such thing as danger? I'm pretty sure that predators, whether two legged or four legged with rabies, choose the time and place for me, no matter where I go.

wtf? You make me irate. With your line of reasoning none of us should be carrying because we should either be going to utopia land or just not dreaming of "shooting the place up".
_________________________________
LittleLebowski,

Thanks for the input. Have you seen that command presence work with wild animals, feral or stray?

[TGS]

Consider a can of O.C. Fox Labs as well which I've learned from experience works very well on a "Pitt Bull" I sprayed that charged me while I was exiting my vehicle.

Not sure of what type it was, but I walked into the dining room one day and found Argus licking up the stuff from our can of dog spray after it got busted open.

Is Fox Labs suppose to be very reliable? I'd be all for spraying a dog instead of shooting if it's reliable in stopping them.

[LittleLebowski]

Pretty much "all with limited experience on feral," TGS. Feral and wild animals are not so much of a danger (outside of packs) as are "improperly raised aggressive domestic dogs."

I'm of the firm belief that a grown man with his wits about him can handle most dog attacks unarmed albeit not without damage. Trained dogs attacking are another story. My dog is trained, I have seen what he can do.

[agent-smith]

Umm, what? Where did you just pull this load out of?

It's not a matter of "I'm too scared to go there."

The question being asked pertains to addressing the biggest threat. On this canal trail, there's way more a chance of me having to shoot a rapid/stray animal than there is of me having to shoot a mugger, because my dog will pretty much take care of most muggers. That doesn't mean I'm bound to get in a firefight just for going there....it's not like I'm going to Juarez, Mexico.

I walk my dog around Trenton, where I'm not allowed to carry, and is WAY more dangerous. I would be walking my dog there, or here, whether I can carry or not. I'm just using my brain and trying to address the most likely threat since I carry when I can. Doesn't make much sense to carry something that addresses one unlikely threat and not another more likely threat.

And to your comment of "walk your dog someplace else rather than go there with the idea of shooting-up the place," dude, where the hell do you get off saying that? Yeah, every time I carry I'm just dreaming of "shooting the place up." And why don't you tell me where this utopia is that there's no such thing as danger? I'm pretty sure that predators, whether two legged or four legged with rabies, choose the time and place for me, no matter where I go.

wtf? You make me irate. With your line of reasoning none of us should be carrying because we should either be going to utopia land or just not dreaming of "shooting the place up".
_________________________________
LittleLebowski,

Thanks for the input. Have you seen that command presence work with wild animals, feral or stray?


Well, if something is important-enough for you to post a question a public forum about changing ammunition types for a specific threat due to you going to a specific location I really don't see how you can be surprised that I would deduce that you were worried about a specific threat in that location that didn't exist elsewhere. So, the easiest thing to do would be to simply not go to that location.

Do whatever you like dude.

[TGS]

Well, if something is important-enough for you to post a question a public forum about changing ammunition types for a specific threat due to you going to a specific location I really don't see how you can be surprised that I would deduce that you were worried about a specific threat in that location that didn't exist elsewhere. So, the easiest thing to do would be to simply not go to that location.

Do whatever you like dude.


The issue is you're making stuff up. The misunderstanding isn't even misinterpretation......you're just plain making stuff up.

I'm not saying the threat of dog attacks doesn't exist elsewhere. I'm saying that the threat of a human attack is much less likely than elsewhere, and so I'm thinking about the most likely attack for that area........stray animals. That doesn't mean I have a greater chance of being accosted overall than other places I go. From what I can tell, there's more strays in my neighborhood.

So, stop deducing stuff, because you're just plain making up stuff in your own little world.


LL,

I've come across some pretty nasty strays that scoffed when I hit them with a broom while yelling, which is why I asked. Do you have any suggested reading on the topic? The only thing I really know about dog attacks is that if you know they're coming, and know you're going to get bit, to give them your arm and shoot them in the chest from underneath your arm. I'm all for learning more if you've got some material you've found to be handy. Thanks again.

[jmjames]

The best tactic is for you to dominate any dog that comes near with your own attitude. A confrontational stance showing no fear with a commanding STOP, GET BACK! works so well.

This cannot be emphasized enough. A rule of thumb that I was taught (I spent many years in 4H doing dog training, taught by a K9 handler for the NJ State Police) is that if a dog is willing to lock eyes with you for 10+ seconds then you are not intimidating it and it may be willing to escalate.

EDIT: Just saw your clarification to the previous poster, I made the same misreading as he did.

J.Ja

[Savage Hands]

Not sure of what type it was, but I walked into the dining room one day and found Argus licking up the stuff from our can of dog spray after it got busted open.

Is Fox Labs suppose to be very reliable? I'd be all for spraying a dog instead of shooting if it's reliable in stopping them.


Well of course it's reliable (But nothing is 100%), I'm all for you recording your dog licking "Hell's Puddle" up lol

There are plenty of youtube videos of people getting sprayed by it.

[TGS]

A rule of thumb that I was taught (I spent many years in 4H doing dog training, taught by a K9 handler for the NJ State Police) is that if a dog is willing to lock eyes with you for 10+ seconds then you are not intimidating it and it may be willing to escalate.

Jm,

That's interesting, thanks. Maybe I'm being myopic in my view of a dog attack, but I'm think it would be a situation where one is rushing out of the leaves not really giving any interaction time other than the charge and Man-wich portion. Looks like I'm in good company to learn about this stuff.

I was raised by my grandfather who was a national champion bird-dog trainer, with a semi-retired kennel and training business, but it goes to show that training bird-dogs and reading dog books/weeks of supervised training with/for Argus didn't give me as much as I'd like to know.

[TGS]

Well of course it's reliable, I'm all for you recording your dog licking "Hell's Puddle" up lol

There are plenty of youtube videos of people getting sprayed by it.

Well, people and dogs are too different animals (pun intended). There's a reason that bear spray causes 2nd degree burns. :eek:

As for licking up the dog spray, I've read similar stories. I bet there's even a youtube video of that! I'd rather not have Argus intentionally do it. :)

[Savage Hands]

Well, people and dogs are too different animals (pun intended). There's a reason that bear spray causes 2nd degree burns. :eek:

As for licking up the dog spray, I've read similar stories. I bet there's even a youtube video of that!


Buy 2 cans and try it for yourself, make sure to post the video :D

[TGS]

Buy 2 cans and try it for yourself, make sure to post the video :D

Do I get anything in return? Brownie points? A special p-t.com coin? T-shirt? :p

Like I said, I don't even know what dog spray we had, so it could have been water mixed with habanero bits for all I know.

[jmjames]

Jm,

That's interesting, thanks. Maybe I'm being myopic in my view of a dog attack, but I'm think it would be a situation where one is rushing out of the leaves not really giving any interaction time other than the charge and Man-wich portion. Looks like I'm in good company to learn about this stuff.

I was raised by my grandfather who was a national champion bird-dog trainer, with a semi-retired kennel and training business, but it goes to show that training bird-dogs and reading dog books/weeks of supervised training with/for Argus didn't give me as much as I'd like to know.

I've been in a few confrontations with dogs (some while walking a dog, some by myself), and I am extraordinarily grateful that none of them went south. My stepfather was in personal protection and something he explained to me is that in an unarmed fight with a dog, you are losing an arm or you are losing your life. His tip for an unarmed confrontation was to offer the weak arm as a sacrifice and use the strong arm to bludgeon the dog's head into the ground, preferably grabbing by the collar if there is one. Not exactly encouraging. I do not know how sound his advice is, but having seen demos of military dogs by MPs, I have no doubt in my mind that a dog attack will destroy a limb in a matter of moments.

One thing that works really well for you in your situation, is that you are walking your dog. You are NOT going to be ambushed by a dog while you have your dog with you, because your dog will notice the other one and alert you to its presence. The downside, of course, is that if you are in that situation, you are trying to control your dog (or possibly tangled in the leash) while bringing a weapon to bear. Take all of the difficulty of making a draw from concealment, and add in that you are possibly holding a leash that's being yanked on by your dog, and if you've put your hand all of the way through the leash you could be well entangled. I've had dogs that couldn't control themselves around another dog, and depending on the size of the dog, controlling it can take all of the effort and concentration you have as it is. And dogs don't really just jump out and attack like, say, a mugger would. They follow a "defend territory/food/shelter" program.

J.Ja

[TGS]

I've been in a few confrontations with dogs (some while walking a dog, some by myself), and I am extraordinarily grateful that none of them went south. My stepfather was in personal protection and something he explained to me is that in an unarmed fight with a dog, you are losing an arm or you are losing your life. His tip for an unarmed confrontation was to offer the weak arm as a sacrifice and use the strong arm to bludgeon the dog's head into the ground, preferably grabbing by the collar if there is one. Not exactly encouraging. I do not know how sound his advice is, but having seen demos of military dogs by MPs, I have no doubt in my mind that a dog attack will destroy a limb in a matter of moments.

One thing that works really well for you in your situation, is that you are walking your dog. You are NOT going to be ambushed by a dog while you have your dog with you, because your dog will notice the other one and alert you to its presence. The downside, of course, is that if you are in that situation, you are trying to control your dog (or possibly tangled in the leash) while bringing a weapon to bear. Take all of the difficulty of making a draw from concealment, and add in that you are possibly holding a leash that's being yanked on by your dog, and if you've put your hand all of the way through the leash you could be well entangled. I've had dogs that couldn't control themselves around another dog, and depending on the size of the dog, controlling it can take all of the effort and concentration you have as it is. And dogs don't really just jump out and attack like, say, a mugger would. They follow a "defend territory/food/shelter" program.

J.Ja

Jm,

I know what you mean about MP's and MWD's. A friend/mentor of mine who's a retired lifer from Force Recon did quite a lot of shoot houses and FoF with dogs. He's the one that taught me about the whole sacrificial limb thing, and I agree, that would be brutal. Reminds me of rule 1 of knife fighting.......you're going to get cut. I would hope while I become a stray's manwich that I'd have the cognition to still draw my weapon and shoot.....there's a reason my mentors unit did so much training in that regard.

As to the whole leash/drawing thing, I've thought about that. I've actually been looking around to see if I can't find anyone who would be willing to teach something like that, or even dispense advice. As for now I've pretty much just been trying to keep the leash on my weak hand as default, which seems to be working dog handling wise even though Argus is trained to walk on the right. I'm not making any imaginations about Argus and I being a trained attack team, but I would like to know methods for best handling him in a situation that goes beyond, "Argus, sit!" followed by readjusting his collar higher on his neck.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Al T.]

Hogs, dogs, black bear - all about the same for SD shots. Wrote this earlier for folks shooting downwards into a hog or dog.

Having head shot several hogs with a 9mm, most folks botch the "head shot" as they lack the understanding of where the brain actually is on a critter. Imagine a football with ears towards one end and teeth at the other. Eyes are about mid-line.

Between the eyes is sinus cavity.

Roughly between the ears is the brain. If you draw an imaginary line from left ear to right eye and visa versa, where those imaginary lines intersect is usually the brain pan. From the side, the ear hole works just fine or a slight bit behind it, depending on target orientation.

Between the shoulders (from above) will give you at least a lung shot and hopefully a spine shot.

As for ammo, I'd want what ever has POI/POA coincide at close range (~7 yards). 147 grain HSTs have about the same sectional density as 230 grain .45 bullets, so that should be controllable and effective.

[jetfire]

I had an interesting discussion with a lawyer once who opined that you are much more likely to be sued and lose if you shoot someone's dog than you are if you shoot an actual criminal. His reasoning if I recall went something along the lines of "juries like dogs a lot more than they like muggers".

Wild/feral animals are a different matter entirely, but what happens when you shoot what you think is a feral dog, only to have the owner come rushing around the corning with a broken collar in his hand 30 seconds later?

[EVP]

I have always thought that my smaller fixed blade knife would be a good defense against dogs for a couple of reasons.


First, when an aggressive dog charges it is usually surprising and fast. I have never encountered a dog that stays its distance and barks then charges without the command of its owner(but then those are trained dogs not strays). Dogs can cover a lot more ground and do it real fast. My thinking is it may be hard to realize what is going on and then make the decision to draw and shoot at an animal that is low to the ground and running fast.

Trained dogs can do some damage, but I honestly think that if you have some sort of weapon or a good blade and go primal on a dog, then you should be able to overpower and kill it.

[Al T.]

you are much more likely to be sued and lose if you shoot someone's dog than you are if you shoot an actual criminal.

Wise man. Down here, (the Dirty South) folks will tolerate a bunch of stuff, but shooting dawgs (pets) will get you turned into an extra in an S.M. Stirling novel in a heart beat. :cool:

[TGS]

Wise man. Down here, (the Dirty South) folks will tolerate a bunch of stuff, but shooting dawgs will get you turned into an extra in an S.M. Stirling novel in a heart beat. :cool:

When a dog is using you or yours as a chew toy, I think there will be plenty of physical evidence to support you.

I'm not talking about walking down this canal shooting dogs left and right just because I see them.

[jetfire]

I wasn't saying that; my point was that the decision window to figure out if this is some feral dog or someone's precious Fluffy off the leash is pretty small, but the potential civil legal consequences of going in the wrong direction could be pretty significant. Hence, bear/pepper spray.

[TGS]

I wasn't saying that; my point was that the decision window to figure out if this is some feral dog or someone's precious Fluffy off the leash is pretty small, but the potential civil legal consequences of going in the wrong direction could be pretty significant. Hence, bear/pepper spray.

Bear spray would get you just as much a civil suit as killing the dog. It causes 2nd degree burns, and would likely result in thousands of dollars of medical treatment for the dog, if not having it put down.

I think I see what you're saying, but whether it's Fluffy or Feral Frank isn't a part of the decision making process within that compressed time frame to begin with. Whether or not the dog is causing harm is the sole factor to me. I could care less if it looks like a kept dog....it could even have a collar jingling with the dog-bone tag of their last rabies shot...but if it's causing harm, I'm stopping that harm. Unless the owner is present and making a concerted effort to immediately stop their dog, I'm shooting it, and I don't see what is the least bit unacceptable about that or "going in a wrong direction". I wouldn't expect anything different of another person if Argus was chewing away and I either sat idly or wasn't present.

I see that the thread has covered a lot of stuff. My original question was about suitable ammunition for reliably stopping a canine if need be. Perhaps a mod could split off some of our discussion for another thread in the appropriate spot about the legality/ethics of shooting a dog in self defense or defense of your dog, good non-lethal alternatives, command presence/"doggy factor," ect.

[NETim]

Dog launches into an unprovoked attack against me, I'm going to shoot it into the ground with grim vigor. There's absolutely no excuse for a dog to behave like that and I'm not going to be a chew toy for some poorly controlled animal.

If the owner has a problem with that, we can take it up after they've paid my medical bills.

[peterb]

Dog launches into an unprovoked attack against me, I'm going to shoot it into the ground with grim vigor. There's absolutely no excuse for a dog to behave like that and I'm not going to be a chew toy for some poorly controlled animal.

If the owner has a problem with that, we can take it up after they've paid my medical bills.

Not arguing that, but from a dog owner's view I'd want to be sure the shooter knew the difference between a noisy display and an actual attack.

Might this be one of the rare cases that a "warning shot" is justified?

[NETim]

Not arguing that, but from a dog owner's view I'd want to be sure the shooter knew the difference between a noisy display and an actual attack.

Might this be one of the rare cases that a "warning shot" is justified?

"Noisy" dogs don't worry me. It's the ones that remain quiet and try to circle around behind me that I keep an eye on.

We've got a few dogs in my little village in the sticks that display this kind of behavior. We simply don't walk by those houses anymore.

I turn and face any dog that approaches us, insert myself between the dog and my wife, lock eyes with the dog and evaluate their behavior. Usually the dog gets the message w/o shots fired. :)

Don't look like food. :)

[TGS]

Might this be one of the rare cases that a "warning shot" is justified?

Depends on where you are. Rural area with no one around? Sure, I'd go for that.

Where I'll be? Fuck no.

[LittleLebowski]

The last dog I faced down that was charging at me, growling was a 120 lb Boerboel that looked like like this (http://www.huisdierenportaal.nl/wp-content/uploads/boerboel-foto.jpg). It was intimidating but backed down when I stood my ground and then walked towards it confidently telling it to get back right now. A friend's animal.

I would really hate to see an epidemic of dogs being shot by armed civilians ala some police departments. Guys, don't get trigger happy because an animal half your size is growling at you or even running at you or near you. I've come close to drawing on a dog once and the above incident was not it.

[TGS]

I'm not talking about walking down this canal shooting dogs left and right just because I see them.

[LittleLebowski]

TGS, I know. Didn't mean for that to seemingly be directed at you. Sorry about that.

[Tamara]

I would really hate to see an epidemic of dogs being shot by armed civilians ala some police departments. Guys, don't get trigger happy because an animal half your size is growling at you or even running at you or near you.

This. Generally speaking, if it's barking, it's not attacking.

[NETim]

I would really hate to see an epidemic of dogs being shot by armed civilians ala some police departments. Guys, don't get trigger happy because an animal half your size is growling at you or even running at you or near you. I've come close to drawing on a dog once and the above incident was not it.

CCW's been around long enough, in enough places, that I think we would have seen the epidemic by now if it were going to happen. In my humble opinion of course.

I am fortunate in that overly aggressive canines are probably the biggest threat I'll ever face in my quiet little corner of the world and the odds of that occurring are small.

Then I remember Von Maur, and I carry.

[GJM]

This might be an instance where I would carry a steel (but unloaded) 1911, and use it to beat the attacking dog over the head.

I have shot a raccoon that approached me and my dog, in a rural area, during a time of a rabies outbreak in raccoons. Glock 23, 165 Hydra Shok, and it worked fine with one shot. My wife was walking our previous, elderly bird dog on a leash, and was attacked by a pit bull, walking on the perimeter of an airport in the Pacific Northwest. When the pit bull clamped on our dog's throat, she hit the pit bull on the top of its head with her fist and stunned the dog, stopping the attack. At that time, the owner ran up shouting that she had hurt his dog. A year ago, in Wichita, we saw a dog out in a park, obviously lost, in 0 degree temperatures. When my wife went to check for a dog tag, the dog came at a dead run from twenty feet. My wife turned, and the dog bit her on the hip.

While I was fine shooting the raccoon, I believe the consequences of shooting the dog at the airport or in Wichita, would have been worse than a bite. I think an impact weapon would be an ideal first defense, with a handgun further up the continuum of force, if the attack was serious and continued. Besides possible criminal charges, I believe you put yourself in civil jeopardy by shooting a dog that appears to be a threat, but hasn't bit you. While I am not a lawyer, and I don't believe this is the scenario you are concerned about, if someone shot my dog, which doesn't have a mean bone in her body, just because she approached them, I would spend more than I have invested in holsters suing them civilly, and would take days of depositions on their past use of firearms, training, and statements on forums like this, to show that they were looking for an opportunity to shoot a dog.

[jmjames]

This might be an instance where I would carry a steel (but unloaded) 1911, and use it to beat the attacking dog over the head.

Aside from the jokes that come to mind about 1911's... this is a good point, that a simple striking weapon may be the right answer here. There are plenty of legal options on that end of the spectrum, and they often cost less than a box of bullets.

J.Ja

[DocGKR]

Fire extinguishers are a sure way to stop dogs without causing harm--then comes #1 buckshot, but this leads to a different outcome...

[Al T.]

Fire extinguishers are a sure way to stop dogs without causing harm

That's good to know. Thanks! :)

[NETim]

Fire extinguishers are a sure way to stop dogs without causing harm--then comes #1 buckshot, but this leads to a different outcome...

Shovels work well too but like fire extinguishers, I seldom carry one on walks.

[TGS]

I guess my EDC just jumped up to adding my E-Tool and a fire extinguisher.

[LittleLebowski]

I guess my EDC just jumped up to adding my E-Tool and a fire extinguisher.

Your dog would bear the brunt of any attack by other dogs. Definitely would buy you time to dispatch the attacking dog. I wouldn't worry about this sort of situation provided you have your wits about you, weapon or not.

[Frank R]

In answer to your original question, yes the 147gr. HST will do the job if you do yours, meaning proper shot placement.

[Mjolnir]

I have a lot o experience with working strain American Bulldogs and Pit Bulls. If either attack you - and I mean coming at you in the manner they go after each other and hogs - you're dead if you cannot 'blade them in the vitals or shoot them to death.

I absolutely adore dogs especially the two mentioned above but let there be no misunderstanding about their ability to dish out extreme punishment which is only exceeded by their ability to ABSORB it. Thankfully, they GENERALLY aren't "man aggressive" but their are plenty of large breeds that can LITERALLY "leave you in the street" if you are unarmed. Working strain Malinau, Shepherds, Rottweilers and a host of Molossers fit the bill.

To the OP: if your dog does not step between u and an attacking feral dog... grrrrrrr!!! You didn't mention the breed or your dog's personality, age or condition so it possibly can (or cannot) defend both of you.

Fixed blade knives and high sectional density rounds. Pepper spray doesn't hurt, either. Different horses for different courses.

Since I grew up with Pit Bulldogs I always had breaking sticks around to pry his/her jaws off of whatever was unfortunate enough to get close enough to get caught - usually a large, unleashed, aggressive dog who was unimpressed with the size of a 55 lb gamebred Pit Bull. Never took long to alter their attitudes.

If something like a Pit Bull ran your way aggressively please shoot it. Better to be fined or even spend the weekend in jail then have multiple reconstructive surgeries with retarded function. I don't think many know the damage a dog - any medium-sized and up - can cause. We're not that tough in comparison.

[TGS]

I have a lot o experience with working strain American Bulldogs and Pit Bulls. If either attack you - and I mean coming at you in the manner they go after each other and hogs - you're dead if you cannot 'blade them in the vitals or shoot them to death.

I absolutely adore dogs especially the two mentioned above but let there be no misunderstanding about their ability to dish out extreme punishment which is only exceeded by their ability to ABSORB it. Thankfully, they GENERALLY aren't "man aggressive" but their are plenty of large breeds that can LITERALLY "leave you in the street" if you are unarmed. Working strain Malinau, Shepherds, Rottweilers and a host of Molossers fit the bill.

To the OP: if your dog does not step between u and an attacking feral dog... grrrrrrr!!! You didn't mention the breed or your dog's personality, age or condition so it possibly can (or cannot) defend both of you.

Fixed blade knives and high sectional density rounds. Pepper spray doesn't hurt, either. Different horses for different courses.

Since I grew up with Pit Bulldogs I always had breaking sticks around to pry his/her jaws off of whatever was unfortunate enough to get close enough to get caught - usually a large, unleashed, aggressive dog who was unimpressed with the size of a 55 lb gamebred Pit Bull. Never took long to alter their attitudes.

If something like a Pit Bull ran your way aggressively please shoot it. Better to be fined or even spend the weekend in jail then have multiple reconstructive surgeries with retarded function. I don't think many know the damage a dog - any medium-sized and up - can cause. We're not that tough in comparison.

Mjolnir,

Thanks for the response.

The original question I posed revolved around my carry ammo being suitable for dogs, which would include large ones. I didn't know what the "standard" for terminal effectiveness should be, so to say, but it sounds like 147gr HST's are fine from some comments.

The discussion quickly devolved into sensitivities over shooting a dog, which was pretty lame. I asked an objective question and people ran with it to satisfy their own egos. While some people here are the dog whisperer, I grew up with a wildlife preserve bordering our property. I have plenty experience around strays that are starving as well as poorly trained/misbehaving dogs that we kenneled (gramps ran a kennel/national award winning bird dog training business), and I have absolutely NO illusions about being able to control them with a command presence.

As to my dog, he's a 65lbs 4 year old that is 3/4 Rottweiler, 1/8 Border Collie and 1/8 German Spitz. He comes between any dog and us, and is very sensitive to being introduced to dogs. He's very distrustful of other dogs unless carefully introduced......his best friend, our neighbors Pitbull, ended up biting him for no reason one time. Definitely unprovoked out of no where.....since then he's been distrustful with other dogs. His fighting ability isn't bad....the other week I ran into another friend at the park with her GIANT teddybear of a Boxer monstrosity.....imagine a Caucasian Shepherd mixed with a Boxer. HUGE. He's very playful and his past playmate was an extremely docile Rott.....well, his handler left him a little too much slack and while Argus was sniffing something Bruno ran up behind Argus, which was not a good situation. Bruno got one puncture wound and one 1.5" slash but Argus was fine. He's pretty scrappy and very protective, but also decently well behaved for the amount of professional training we've been able to afford for him (couple weeks of night school) and what obedience training we do with him. Actually, we were only able to get Bruno and Argus apart by switching spots, so I had Bruno and our friend had Argus. As soon as we got them apart, Argus responded to our friends' command and sat. Good boy! :) He also displays extremely strong pack behaviors, and will usually be pressed up snugly against you or on top of you when laying or sitting.

Here's Argus on Sunday all worn out after playing with his girlfriend Daisy:
579

There's some more photos of him in the Pet's gallery thread here (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?281-Pets!&p=47379&viewfull=1#post47379)

Suffice to say, he will definitely defend his pack.

Thanks again,
TGS

[barstoolguru]

if you think you can shoot a dog that is in motion/ attacking good luck the smart money says thet the dog latch on to you weak are before making the shot

[NETim]

if you think you can shoot a dog that is in motion/ attacking good luck the smart money says thet the dog latch on to you weak are before making the shot

I've shot rabbits on the run. Dogs are much bigger.

[TGS]

if you think you can shoot a dog that is in motion/ attacking good luck the smart money says thet the dog latch on to you weak are before making the shot

English please.

[JDM]

if you think you can shoot a dog that is in motion/ attacking good luck the smart money says thet the dog latch on to you weak are before making the shot


A dog charging me that is of substantial enough size to warrant defensive gun use is going to present a target at least 9" in diameter, and if it is charging head on, that 9" is not going to be moving all that much. I can hit 9" circles inside of 10 yards pretty effectively, and pretty quickly.

[barstoolguru]

its not as easy as you think .... 12 shots to stop a dog and it still got within 10 feet


http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2011/04/man_who_fired_12_shots_at_char.html

[rockymtnnut]

I've had to pull my pistol 3 times in last 3 years on dogs ,this is a great thread. All I can say is when it happens it happens quick!

[Shellback]

Drills like this are a good way to simulate an attacking dog.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrmvbDc_AUE

I'd also suggest going here: http://web.mac.com/whitehawkvision/WHV/Welcome.html and read the part "Info on attack". An informative story about having to shoot several dogs attacking the owner's dog.

[LittleLebowski]

English please.

I think this video illustrates the speed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cukf9u_oxjo

[Coyotesfan97]

Mal 1 Axeman 0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[barstoolguru]

Drills like this are a good way to simulate an attacking dog.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrmvbDc_AUE

I'd also suggest going here: http://web.mac.com/whitehawkvision/WHV/Welcome.html and read the part "Info on attack". An informative story about having to shoot several dogs attacking the owner's dog.

this is a strait run it front of you and you know the path. sorry this is a fail; dogs come from anywhere and give no warning

edit: they are coming at you with a hurting, that will rattle anyone

[Shellback]

this is a strait run it front of you and you know the path. sorry this is a fail; dogs come from anywhere and give no warning

edit: they are coming at you with a hurting, that will rattle anyone

Next time you hold the jug and come running. :)

[JeffJ]

this is a strait run it front of you and you know the path. sorry this is a fail; dogs come from anywhere and give no warning

edit: they are coming at you with a hurting, that will rattle anyone

Then every drill we run is a fail. Drills don't exactly imitate real life but they come as close as we can get within the constraints of time, money, equipment, etc. and hopefully build basic skills that can be used in real life.