Heeling the shot!? and general 25yd suckyness.

[miller_man]

Hi all,

Haven't been very active with my journal due to having 2 new babies around the house, but have been getting almost regular dry practice in (though pretty limited - ~20 min/day) and getting decent amounts of live fire in - weekly or bi weekly. Have been doing ok, actually still improving on some things/drills.

But have tried getting serious again about improving on 25yd accuracy/shooting. But I am hitting a brick wall, a wall of suckyness. I have a very simple, low set goal of getting 10/10 rounds on paper (b8 repair) and a more serious goal of eventually keeping most, if not all in the black. Shooting a g34 this shouldn't be that hard.

I am getting a very consistent pattern of shooting all shots high and a tad left. This is all slow, deliberate bullseye type shooting. Taking breaks in between shots - no rushing. I have even done this drill several times and have seen very slight improvements, but mostly I just do a good press with empty gun and go back to screwing it up with the next live round. But did find that I "heel the gun"? I push down on the bottom of my palm on the lowest part of the grip, right when I break the trigger - causing the back of the gun to dip down. (its funny because I don't really see the front sight move, just the rear sight drop down)


https://youtu.be/NxyTFzgWjhk

I've tried not focusing on the trigger press, tried making a quick press like I would on a close target, tried doing a very slow press. All still equals mosly high shots. Here is some of my targets, believe this was after a few runs - some of the holes were taped up (left pic). Lately, it seems to almost be getting worse and I just left the range pretty frustrated after going to the indoor range and dumping 100 rounds at a b8 at 18yds and hitting the black maybe 10 times. (rifle range wasn't open - 25yd not available) Was severly pissed ready to throw all my pistols into the trash.

Seriously, what do I need to do? What can I do to get rid of the "heeling"?

I am not that great of a shooter but have been seeing decent improvements in most areas but I can't get this one. ANY thoughts or help would be appreciated. TIA.

1953019531

[Jared]

I have had the worst problem with shooting high when I'd start to "look over" the sights (trying to see my hits) when I broke the shot. The looking over phenomenon cause me to raise the front sight and sent the miss high. Took a while to diagnose for me. I still catch myself doing it from time to time. The key for me has been to remember to look through the rear sight, not just kinda see the rear sight.

All that falls under a broader heading of what I call "visual discipline" when shooting. Believe it or not, about 80% of my own shooting problems come back to not using my eyes right, rather than something I do wrong with my hands and fingers.

[Doc_Glock]

Maybe you just need a taller front sight? Have someone you know is a good shooter try it.

What sights and sight picture are you using?

[miller_man]

All that falls under a broader heading of what I call "visual discipline" when shooting. Believe it or not, about 80% of my own shooting problems come back to not using my eyes right, rather than something I do wrong with my hands and fingers.

Good stuff. Boy, that describes a lot of my shooting problems pretty well too - in most drills, messing up has mostly been this "visual discipline" you speak of. Just starting to learn that.

Been doing some other reading/digging around the interwebz for info on this. I think I may still not be very good at watching my front sight lift off. I do recall today thinking/feeling I may have been eye sprinting to the target. Also was reading "my finger trying to tell my brain when the shot was broken, instead of my eyes telling my brain when the shot has broken (watching sights lift off the target)" - that seems to possibly explain what could be happening.

[Clusterfrack]

You can debug this. Your first goal should be consistency, precision, a small group. The placement of the group is secondary.


Here are a few suggestions:

I do not recommend taking breaks between shots. Shoot all 10 rounds without changing anything. Don't look at the target between shots, adjust your grip, etc. This causes inconsistent shooting, and makes it hard to know what caused the group you shot.

Dryfire to work on your trigger press. Make sure you aren't causing the sights to move as you press the trigger.

Explore the effect of grip and stance on your groups. A very relaxed grip and stance can cause shots to hit high, especially in light plastic guns. Try gripping more strongly with your support hand, and add more "forward intention" to your stance. Note: shoot 10 rounds every time you change something.

Focus on the corners of the front sight, and confirm that you are aligned in the notch. Lighting can have a major effect on how the notch appears--especially for folks with aging eyes. I've observed my groups shift because of the direction of the sun.

Work on observing the sights as the shot happens, and note anything that didn't look like a good shot. Try to see where front sight was when it jumped from the shot firing. When you learn to call your shots, you'll be on a solid path to improve your shooting.

(The drill in the video seems ok to me, but there's nothing wrong with a "flinch" as long as it happens after the shot fires. When you see M/GM shooters have a misfire during a match, there's almost always a post-ignition push that looks like a flinch. It's only a problem if it happens before the shot is fired.)

[miller_man]

Maybe you just need a taller front sight? Have someone you know is a good shooter try it.

What sights and sight picture are you using?

This is same with 2 34's. No, haven't gotten another shooter to try it - maybe need to do that. 1st one was setup with cheap glock plastic front sight, painted flat black and ameriglo .150 black rears (defoors). I thought I liked the little bit wider front sight with less light bars. Was using a 6 o'clock hold - cutting the target in half with front sight. Have been using this for a while and have pulled off some decent shots at 25yd with it. First pic is 20yd, second is 25yd - minus the low shot and fliers to right, looks pretty decent to me. This was earlier this year back in April I believe - when I was getting excited that I could be figuring it out.

1955219553

Just installed dawson chargers last week though - pretty sure they would be spot on. Shot this at 25 first time in live fire with em (sorry sideways pics). Shot 5 for group, then paste and shot 2nd group. Seemed pretty good, and consistent with what I've been shooting. Really like the smaller fs and tighter rear sight/sight picture. 2nd 34 is set up with some standard tru glo night sights for now, shoot pretty much the same with them too.

1955619557

[Doc_Glock]

I am not an expert. First you need to get your group size down to 5" or less for ten. Once you are grouping nicely, then use the sights to move it where you want it.

Chargers are great sights but sometimes they need a front sight swap to dial in your particular gun and ammo.

[Doc_Glock]

This is a bible of bullseye I have been reading.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm

[miller_man]

Really good stuff - please keep it coming!

Ok, good - first priority is a good, small group - 5". I have actually seen decent groups for a few shots, just not where I wanted them so I just discounted them.

[miller_man]

You can debug this. Your first goal should be consistency, precision, a small group. The placement of the group is secondary.

I really needed to hear/read that!

Here are a few suggestions:

I do not recommend taking breaks between shots. Shoot all 10 rounds without changing anything. Don't look at the target between shots, adjust your grip, etc. This causes inconsistent shooting, and makes it hard to know what caused the group you shot.

That makes good sense.

Dryfire to work on your trigger press. Make sure you aren't causing the sights to move as you press the trigger.

Explore the effect of grip and stance on your groups. A very relaxed grip and stance can cause shots to hit high, especially in light plastic guns. Try gripping more strongly with your support hand, and add more "forward intention" to your stance. Note: shoot 10 rounds every time you change something.

Now reading that - I do think I have a relaxed, pretty sure leaning more back stance - almost like I'm somewhat timid with my posture at the 25yd line.

Focus on the corners of the front sight, and confirm that you are aligned in the notch. Lighting can have a major effect on how the notch appears--especially for folks with aging eyes. I've observed my groups shift because of the direction of the sun.

Definitely shooting in different times of day/sun/cloudy etc.. This is also why I felt the wider front sight helped - I had a wider top of the front sight to line up with the top of the rear sight. So far, I still think the smaller dawsons are better though.

Work on observing the sights as the shot happens, and note anything that didn't look like a good shot. Try to see where front sight was when it jumped from the shot firing. When you learn to call your shots, you'll be on a solid path to improve your shooting.

Have really been trying to fully grasp this, still learning how I think. Really think this is a big key I am missing right now. But have been able to tell more and more when I throw a bad one. I have noticed seeing the flash of the bang a few times and was really suprised by seeing this - first time for it, good thing?

(The drill in the video seems ok to me, but there's nothing wrong with a "flinch" as long as it happens after the shot fires. When you see M/GM shooters have a misfire during a match, there's almost always a post-ignition push that looks like a flinch. It's only a problem if it happens before the shot is fired.)

Yes, was reading this on Brian Enos forum earlier. I have definitely witnessed myself with a dramatic, pre push.

[Jared]

Good stuff. Boy, that describes a lot of my shooting problems pretty well too - in most drills, messing up has mostly been this "visual discipline" you speak of. Just starting to learn that.

Been doing some other reading/digging around the interwebz for info on this. I think I may still not be very good at watching my front sight lift off. I do recall today thinking/feeling I may have been eye sprinting to the target. Also was reading "my finger trying to tell my brain when the shot was broken, instead of my eyes telling my brain when the shot has broken (watching sights lift off the target)" - that seems to possibly explain what could be happening.

Ok, so two things then. 1, do some berm drills. Just shoot bullets into the dirt and watch the sights lift. If there's no target to hit, there's no reason to eye sprint and you probably won't do it. Now, don't do it for something like 200 straight rounds, but maybe 5-10 shots here and there. If I was going to do a bunch of 25 yard B8'S and I was having issues, I'd absolutely spend 5 rounds here and there doing berm drills, just to remind my brain how to look at the sights properly.

Another thing, try a 22. Yes, I know it's super easy to get hits with a 22 vs a centerfire, but if eye sprinting is the issue, you probably can't see .22 caliber holes at 25 yards anyway, so again, there's no incentive to try to look for them as you shoot. Maybe try 20-30 rounds of rimfire, then 10 round centerfire group.

Finally, if eye sprinting is the issue, do not shoot reactive targets until you get it under control. Reactive targets encourage you to watch them bounce around or swing or whatever. That's bad when you're battling eye sprinting issues. I think too much time on reactive targets contributed to my own problems with this. Non falling steel is fine though, in my experience.

ETA: RELAX!!! Some of my very worst shooting experiences have come when I tried too hard, got frustrated, tensed up and "tried harder." I always try to remind myself now that a shitty day at the range beats the heck out of going to work on a Saturday. This is my "me" time, my fun time. Turning it into frustration and drudgery is counter productive. That doesn't mean only do things you're good at, just learn to relax and enjoy the process and the journey.

[miller_man]

Ok, so two things then. 1, do some berm drills. Just shoot bullets into the dirt and watch the sights lift. If there's no target to hit, there's no reason to eye sprint and you probably won't do it. Now, don't do it for something like 200 straight rounds, but maybe 5-10 shots here and there. If I was going to do a bunch of 25 yard B8'S and I was having issues, I'd absolutely spend 5 rounds here and there doing berm drills, just to remind my brain how to look at the sights properly.

This would be very good - look forward to trying this.

Another thing, try a 22. Yes, I know it's super easy to get hits with a 22 vs a centerfire, but if eye sprinting is the issue, you probably can't see .22 caliber holes at 25 yards anyway, so again, there's no incentive to try to look for them as you shoot. Maybe try 20-30 rounds of rimfire, then 10 round centerfire group.

Hmm, I suck for not still having a 22 pistol. Maybe I can borrow/use one. I think this would be good for my confidence too - just to see good shots on a target @ 25 that I put there would be a big boost.

Finally, if eye sprinting is the issue, do not shoot reactive targets until you get it under control. Reactive targets encourage you to watch them bounce around or swing or whatever. That's bad when you're battling eye sprinting issues. I think too much time on reactive targets contributed to my own problems with this. Non falling steel is fine though, in my experience.

Yes, I've stayed away from those for awhile now. Good to know though.

ETA: RELAX!!! Some of my very worst shooting experiences have come when I tried too hard, got frustrated, tensed up and "tried harder." I always try to remind myself now that a shitty day at the range beats the heck out of going to work on a Saturday. This is my "me" time, my fun time. Turning it into frustration and drudgery is counter productive. That doesn't mean only do things you're good at, just learn to relax and enjoy the process and the journey.


Ya, totally suffer from that one. Yesterday, I totally expected to have much better hits at 18yd vs 25yd. When I shot the first 6 rounds and saw the hits still going above the target, I pretty much jumped right on the express train down the road to missery and frustration

[voodoo_man]

Didn't read the responses...

Things to do:

Always find your natural point of aim at 25 y before shooting. Each time.

If you have trouble hitting center, try a different gun with different sights. Sights are extremely important here, so finding the right way to use the sights you have needs to be debugged.

Every change you do with anything, grip, sights, shooting position, trigger press, rep that for a week at least 30 mins a day and then see how it works your next trip.

Try to only change one thing before a range trip, changing too much may make you confused as to how many things need to be done and in what order. Effects may vary.

For those who are not seeing improvement or plateauing - shoot this 100 drill at 7 yards. All round should be in the x. Then the 10. Then the 15. Then 18, 21, then 25.

You will find a distance where your groups open up really badly. That's where you should be starting from and working up.

Conversely, if you do well at 25y, move back and keep going until you group well at 50.

[Jared]

Regarding frustration.....

I'm not the best in the world at this, but here goes a little philosophy....

We all want a positive result. Faster time, better accuracy, whatever. We love the positive result. Learn to love the process that creates that result. Learn to love establishing a good grip, and learn to love the discreet steps involved in that. Learn to love the individual steps that lead to an accurate shot. If you learn to love doing those steps correctly, then making and accurate shot is almost a foregone conclusion. Just get all the little bits right. Any drill, any skill, all of it can be broken down into little bits. And those bits can be mastered. The trick is to love the process, not just the end result, because loving the process means you'll work at it. Loving only the result leads to frustration when you don't get the result you want.

I know it sounds either very Zen or very hokey, whichever way you choose to look at it. I forget to do it sometimes too. But I've had my very best days when I relaxed and simply enjoyed being in the range and doing the steps. Those days, those are the days I've set PR's and done things I didn't previously think I could.

ETA: a lot of that advice there was handed to me by Mr_White some time ago. I shouldn't have posted it without proper attribution the first go round

[P.E. Kelley]

Shoot groups at 3 or 5 or 7 yards first. You are not going to shoot 3" groups at 25 if ya can't shoot 1" groups at 5.

If you get to the point that you can consistently shoot good groups then you can concern yourself where they are going.

No one can "heel" or "push" or otherwise move the gun at the point of ignition and consistently shoot groups.

This a trigger issue that appears to be driven by visual feedback and the desire see the hits in the center. That is a common theme.

Dryfire is HUGH in helping this. 22's are a BIG help in breaking this issue.

FWIW I am a Bullseye Master and the one thing helped me to win was...repeating in my head "honest trigger". That meant to never take the
shot, just apply positive pressure to the rear in one motion and let the shot go wherever my wobble zone would let it go.

[baddean]

If I may join in the conversation.
You have gotten some great info here. I particularly liked the info you received from Jared. I would expand on that if I may.
I think you already know that you are "eye sprinting" as you call it. You are also disturbing the sight picture at the trigger press. How would only be a guess since none of us have seen you shoot. I like the berm drill or, in the case of an indoor range, the "backer" drill. (backing cardboard with no target).
The purpose being, as Jared mentioned, to concentrate on "hard focus" of the front sight. Not just looking at it but total concentrated focus. Watching it move, watching it come back on target. Many students will say that they are looking at the front sight, but looking and focusing are two different things.
As for trigger press, you seem to already know there might be an issue with that. Ball and dummy drills are good for detecting and helping correct the press. While correcting the press you also get to work on practicing your hard focus on the front sight.
It would be helpful to have a competent instructor watch you, competent being the operative word here, who knows what to look for and how to convey to you how to correct what needs adjustment.
Short of that, video yourself shooting or have someone video you while shooting so you can sit down afterward and critique your session to determine what might be happening. The video should be of only you, not you at the range with targets and all. You're not interested in what happened down range only what you are doing.
As for the frustration. Know how that feels. If I feel frustration coming on I pack it up and go home. I've found that if I keep going while frustrated I just keep getting better at doing what it is that is frustrating me. Next range trip gets dedicated to getting the basics correct and working from there.
Hope this helps some

[kmanick]

https://youtu.be/NxyTFzgWjhk
[/ATTACH]
I actually worked this drill today. I was dialing in my Vortex venom on my M&P 9L and I was shooting about an Inch to 2 inches high and an inch to 2 to the right.
someone else (who is a sniper and has better eyes than I do) shot my gun and was dead on so I decided to try this drill and lo and behold
if my finger was not centered on the trigger I was pulling up and to the right during the squeeze.
I slowed myself down and really focused on pulling straight back and at 35 feet I started to group consistently on the right side
of the bullseye (I'm left handed so when I pull I tend to pull to the right) , so now I'm only about 1/2 inch off dead center height wise.

[Jared]

And I forgot something that may help, negative targets. Take a USPSA target and cut the A zone out of it. Again there's no bullet holes to see (as long as you hit where the A zone should be) and again, no reason to look at the target for the hits. Granted, this only works if you are at a distance where you are guaranteed to hit the silhouette, because you could whiff the whole thing and not have a bullet holes same as if it passed through the missing A zone.

[modrecoil]

Did a lot of 25 yard work in Tom Given's class this past weekend. Similar takeaway as P.E. Kelley's post above. Almost entirely a matter of trigger control at this distance. Accept your wobble zone, front sight focus, don't watch your hits, take your time, nothing wrong with resting between shots. Treating as 5 one shot groups and not one 5 shot group may help. We even shot a couple of drills at closer distances with eyes closed to remind us (I think all Advanced Instructor candidates understand this intellectually but some like me still have trouble accepting it subconsciously and translating into performance) that trigger control is THE limiting factor. And yes, Gabe's advice about focusing on the process and not the result is spot on.

[P.E. Kelley]

Did a lot of 25 yard work in Tom Given's class this past weekend. Similar takeaway as P.E. Kelley's post above. Almost entirely a matter of trigger control at this distance. Accept your wobble zone, front sight focus, don't watch your hits, take your time, nothing wrong with resting between shots. Treating as 5 one shot groups and not one 5 shot group may help. We even shot a couple of drills at closer distances with eyes closed to remind us (I think all Advanced Instructor candidates understand this intellectually but some like me still have trouble accepting it subconsciously and translating into performance) that trigger control is THE limiting factor. And yes, Gabe's advice about focusing on the process and not the result is spot on.

Now that you said it, I will state that in every class I hold, I shoot with my eyes closed on a drill or two. "It ain't the sights is it?"

[scjbash]

No one can "heel" or "push" or otherwise move the gun at the point of ignition and consistently shoot groups.





You know a helluva lot more about shooting than I do but I'm not 100% sure about that. When I first started shooting again after an injury left me applying very little support hand pressure unless I really focused on applying it I was consistently shooting 3"-5" groups at 25 yards that were always high left. Not extremely high left, but consistent. It really felt to me like I was healing the gun at the moment I broke the shot. If I made myself grip harder with my support hand, which I could only muster for one shot at a time, and back off the strong hand pressure the high left problem went away.

As I healed up and my strength returned I would start training days shooting fine, but as my left arm fatigued I would catch myself compensating by using too much strong hand and pushing groups high left again.

[miller_man]

Ok guys - thanks so much for all the input, feedback and instruction! I think I'm finding a common theme and something I always hope to be past and/or think I'm better at but not - my fundamentals need work and are not where they should be or at least where I want/need them to be. Also my vision skills need to be developed to reach the next level - will put a LONG post about that next.

Did some dry work in the garage yesterday morning and came up with a way to escape to a quick range trip - real quick yesterday (kinda rushed so not the best - but I think I got what I needed). Did some berm drills (more on that in the long vision post) then went for shooting groups at 7, 10, 15 and 20 yds. Kinda apparent what needs to happen. Will be working hard on fundamentals - which I will look forward to this process. I have been shooting 2" dots/5yd every practice session since about December - have just recently got to where I can go 5/5 on this, like last 3-4 times, more success than ever, but still not perfect - Shots are still not on top of each other, but mostly in the circle. Was thinking this was a good indication that fundamentals were sound, but now I think it's just starting to get my fundamentals in order. Not gonna whore up this thread with more pics - you can go to here to my journal to see pics http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18899-Putting-in-the-work&p=645626#post645626.

[miller_man]

Warning - Long and probably not totally relevant to the thread.


Thinking about learning to love the process. One thing I don't do well and is a big part of the process is getting, keeping and looking at the sight picture at 25yds. It is pretty tricky for me (good ol astigmatism's and all, even with glasses). So I decided to go work on this and learn to love working on it - just the vision part of it - just getting a sight picture at a distant target. I have 2 - 6" yellow "plates" at roughly 30 yds in my back yard - just for dry practice- pretty tough target. I went to work just getting and holding a sight picture on them with a nice, crisp front sight focus. I found I could only hold a good sight picture for literally 3, maybe 4 seconds before things start to wash out and get REAL funky. I think my non dominant eye starts to really interfere. Kept at it but didn't do to well at all.

Went to the range and started with berm drills. I shot about 12- 15 rounds the first time - trying my best to see the front sight lift. Thought I might have seen it a little bit once or twice but not like I here/read other people talking about. Mostly I would just see it disappear then reappear. Kind of confusing/dissapointing. Went on to shoot some groups.

After a while, I wanted to try some more berm shots. At some point I tried closing my non-dominant eye. First shot - Holy cow! I had such clarity and for the first time could see exactly when the front sight lifted and tell where it lifted from. I took serveral more shots and began to watch it lift and come back down into the rear sight. I have never seen that much. I felt like I was watching a video.

Shot a few groups with 1 eye closed - and while the groups themselves didn't drastically improve, I had much better vision on watching the front sight lift, and could tell much more where it lifted from.

Later on, thinking about this I was trying it with my pointer finger. What I found is with both eyes open - I can get a sharp focus on the "sight"(fingernail) but the minute it moves up (I was simulating the front sight jumping up), I loose it. Doing the same thing with just dominant eye is totlly different ball game. It's like my accomadation (? I think, need to go back and read Mr. White's vision thread) can't keep focused on/with the front sight when it moves with both eyes open.

Don't know exactly what to do about this. I know shooting with both eyes open is much better and I've been doing it for a long time now. But I feel like this is a huge part of the puzzle thats been missing and that I just found. I feel like even if it's not best, I'll do a lot better and go further with using 1 eye. Is there any top level/great shooters that close 1 eye?

I think for right now I'm going to explore with closing 1 eye.
Thoughts are welcomed.

[P.E. Kelley]

Try a little dab of lip balm on the eye pro side that you don't want on the front sight. That way you get full light into that eye
and enough vision to keep the brain happy. Cellophane tape works too. Brian Enos used the tape trick at Major matches.

[Jared]

M_M, good to hear. I've read Mr_White vision article about 100 times. I still cannot execute the "at-will focal shift" and have concluded that it may not be something that everyone can do. Maybe I'm making excuses, I dunno. I do know that I finally decided to work on identifieng what I can shoot target focused and what needs a hard front sight focus, stuff like that to compensate for my inability to execute the at-will focal shift. Obviously, a B-8 at 25 yards is a hard front sight focus problem.

Now, if you have to shoot one eye closed, it's really not the end of the world. There have been some top-level USPSA dudes that shoot one eye closed. I also flatly do not think that losing the front sight in recoil is the end of the world but that's my own little opinion. With time and practice, you'll probably lose it less frequently.

ETA:. I think it's a very good idea to always be working on fundamentals. I don't get to practice dry or live near as much as I used to, so just about every session ends up being fundamentals work. In a lot of ways it's been better for me than when I used to work on fundamentals one day a week and spend the other 6 days trying to do fancy stuff because I thought I was too advanced for basic level stuff. That was my own ego working against me.

[miller_man]

Try a little dab of lip balm on the eye pro side that you don't want on the front sight. That way you get full light into that eye
and enough vision to keep the brain happy. Cellophane tape works too. Brian Enos used the tape trick at Major matches.

I will experiment with this as well - but I have done the tape thing, and while it helped a ton, I still got a lot of carry over/distortion with the covered eye that mixed in with my sight picture.

[miller_man]

[QUOTE=Jared;645666]M_M, good to hear. I've read Mr_White vision article about 100 times. I still cannot execute the "at-will focal shift" and have concluded that it may not be something that everyone can do. Maybe I'm making excuses, I dunno. I do know that I finally decided to work on identifieng what I can shoot target focused and what needs a hard front sight focus, stuff like that to compensate for my inability to execute the at-will focal shift. Obviously, a B-8 at 25 yards is a hard front sight focus problem.

Guess I should be thankful then - the at-will-focul shift is very easy for me.

Now, if you have to shoot one eye closed, it's really not the end of the world. There have been some top-level USPSA dudes that shoot one eye closed. I also flatly do not think that losing the front sight in recoil is the end of the world but that's my own little opinion. With time and practice, you'll probably lose it less frequently.

Probably true, but after what I saw with that little bit of experience seeing the front sight like that - I dunno, I want to get more of that! If closing one eye can make me a better shooter, I think I could live with it. My eyes are pretty jacked up, might just be a tradeoff I have to make. At least until I maybe go red dot some day.

ETA:. I think it's a very good idea to always be working on fundamentals. I don't get to practice dry or live near as much as I used to, so just about every session ends up being fundamentals work. In a lot of ways it's been better for me than when I used to work on fundamentals one day a week and spend the other 6 days trying to do fancy stuff because I thought I was too advanced for basic level stuff. That was my own ego working against me.

Touche!




Ok, so what's the concensus on what groups I should shoot? 2" dots at 5yd is getting closer to under my belt, move out to 7 yds? 1' sqaure at 3 yds?
Go with Voodoo mans recommendations? B-8 at 7yd, all x's?
Shoot the B-8's all black at 15 and start pushing back 1 yard at time?

[Jared]

Yeah, probably go with voodoo_man recommendation and start slow and work back. Heck, you can start at 3 yards if you want too. That's how I learned the crunchenticker, started at 3 yards doing DA/SA pairs, decocking in between and just slowly backed up. At 3 yards the temptation to eye sprint is going to be almost out of control, so if you can keep from doing it at 3, not doing it at 25 will be cake, lol.

You asked if there were any top level competitors that shut one eye. I am not 100% sure on this, but I think reigning USPSA Production champ Alex Gutt does. Like I said, I think. Someone could prove me wrong.

[GJM]

I think I understand you are shooting a Glock 34 -- if so, how much finger are you using? If you are using a Glock, and are using just the pad of your finger, perhaps try sinking to the first crease.

[Mr_White]

After a while, I wanted to try some more berm shots. At some point I tried closing my non-dominant eye. First shot - Holy cow! I had such clarity and for the first time could see exactly when the front sight lifted and tell where it lifted from. I took serveral more shots and began to watch it lift and come back down into the rear sight. I have never seen that much. I felt like I was watching a video.

THAT'S IT! Keep doing that.

I couldn't cite many of the shooters by name, but there is a whole lot of closing/squinting the non dominant eye, and target-focused shooting going on at the highest levels of USPSA. Those really are the most practical ways of addressing some fundamental visual problems in aiming. If those help you, go with it, and I don't think you need to feel limited by it either.

Closing/squinting, and target focusing with both eyes open are, I think, the two fundamental methods to navigate linked convergence and accommodation.

When the shot is hard, that's when we tend to want the most precision and certainty in aiming, and that's why we tend to seek hard sharp focus on the front sight. For a person with linked convergence and accommodation, the problem with doing that with both eyes open is that they get a doubled target. A very expedient solution is to close/squint the non dominant eye and eliminate the doubled target image.

When the shot is easier than that, and it doesn't require the precision and certainty improvement provided by a clear front sight rather than a blurry one, then both eyes can remain open, the target can remain clear, and the blurry sights are enough aiming reference.

I think those two ways of aiming are very prevalent among many shooters of all levels.

[miller_man]

I think I understand you are shooting a Glock 34 -- if so, how much finger are you using? If you are using a Glock, and are using just the pad of your finger, perhaps try sinking to the first crease.

Yes, G34. putting finger on trigger maybe 1/8" before 1st crease - pretty much right in front of it. I have played with more + less, this is best I've found so far.

[GJM]

Yes, G34. putting finger on trigger maybe 1/8" before 1st crease - pretty much right in front of it. I have played with more + less, this is best I've found so far.

I use less finger with a gen 3, more with a bare gen 4, not sure which gen you shoot. Just for a quick check, if you are shooting a bare gen 4, maybe shoot a group or two at the crease.

[miller_man]

Gen 4's. Will do. Thinking back most, if not all my experimenting has been done in dry practice - will definitely give it a go next session.

[miller_man]

Decided to come up with a (hopefully) practical and logical plan for working out my issues with the fundamentals.

Any of the awesome folks (or anybody else) who have already given advice in this thread, please throw me some pointers/thoughts/advice, etc. Post #275
pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18899-Putting-in-the-work/page28


TIA

[drummer]

Hey guys, I did a google search for this topic, and, low and behold, I saw this. So, I'm reviving this threat from the realms of the (mostly) dead. It figures, I should have started searching here anyway.

I recently attended a Presscheck Consulting No Fail Pistol in which a large part of the course is shot at 25 bulls. Getting ready for the course, I started really focusing on shooting bulls with a mostly stock G19, I was somewhere in the high 70s to mid eights mostly. On occasion I'd be in the very low 90s. Shooting 10 round strings, I'd often have two to three rounds high to 10:30 in the 6 to 7 ring. I chocked it up to shooter error.

I also had been doing a lot dry fire with the Mantis-X and have no problem getting mid 90s taking my time with the trigger press.

During the course, Chuck really preached to call your shots. I began trying to do so. It was then that I realized that I wasn't seeing what I needed to see. As we were shooting drills, I really began to focus on seeing the front sight rise out of the rear during recoil. I was still getting two to four rounds out of ten going high and left. During one string of fire, really focused on seeing the front sight lift up, I saw the front sight lift right as I was pressing the trigger. It was then that I realized that I was heeling the pistol being so focused on the trigger press. I SAW it! Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix it. It doesn't manifest itself during dry fire.

I purchased a set of Dawson adjustable and put them on a Glock 34 to try. Prior to the install, I shot a 77 and a 84. With the Dawsons, I shot a 92 as I was adjusting them with no high flyers. My next few scores were 88, 90, and 90. I had a couple rounds on each target high and left. So what I found was that the Dawsons gave me much more visual feedback but, i was still heeling and not realizing it when shooting. Prior to shooting, I double plugged hoping that the reduced noise would help me psychologically. Nope.

What I now realize is that I'm blinking during the shot (mentally and physically) and I'm not seeing the heeling problem. Since it only manifests 2 to 3 rounds per string, I'm not doing it every shot. That said, as I mentally tire from shooting B8s, it happens more and more.

Does anyone have any tips for #1, teaching myself to not blink (physically or mentally) and #2, what i can do to stop heeling?

What this proves to me is that heeling is real and it is not my focal shift racing to the target and back.

Chuck discussed minimizing the "blink" in order to see what was going on, ie seeing more before and after the shot to minimize the window of the blink. Any other tips? Anyone have any drills to do to work on it?