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RobG
01-10-2012, 08:08 PM
I was looking at the tac reload/reload with retention problem the other day and am trying to figure out which is faster and more tactically correct. It seems to me that a reload with retention (stow mag first and then get a new one) has more efficency of motion because the support hand travels to the belt and back only once. A tac reload (magazine exchanged near the gun) leaves the gun unloaded for a shorter time, allowing a faster re-engagement if disrupted by BG, but involves two trips to the belt line by the support hand. Which is better?

This may be a purely competition driven issue because I would be hard pressed to intentionally unload my gun in the middle of an ongoing gunfight.

ToddG
01-11-2012, 12:31 AM
There are arguments for both. Most of those arguments are based on gunfight fantasy or square range testing and don't really take anything practical into account.

Let's hit the one you mentioned: leaving the gun unloaded for a shorter time. That's a very common claim by advocates of the traditional (exchange at the gun) tactical reload. But it assumes an awful lot. First, it assumes that you'd perform the reload when there was a threat nearby... which wouldn't be smart. Maybe he surprised you, and I'm the last to say that no one could possibly surprise me. Next, it assumes that while your brain is in the middle of a practiced complex task (juggling mags and reloading), you'll immediately recognize the need to stop running the TACLOAD program and switch to the SHOOTNOW program in your brain. Finally, it assumes that firing the one round in your pistol, one handed, surprised in the middle of a tac load, will have a meaningful impact on the outcome. All of those things may come to pass that way. But probably not.

The so-called "reload with retention" that has the magazine exchange occur at the belt line tends to be less fumble prone. It's really little more than a normal reload, except you're catching and holding the partially spent magazine as your weak hand drops from the gun. It also tends to be significantly faster for most people when you measure shot to shot (assuming a completed reload). But again, that claim seems dubious to me. If one second makes a meaningful difference in the technique, you probably shouldn't have been performing a voluntary reload to begin with.

I tend to do the old-fashioned style tac load simply because I practiced the heck out of it in my early shooting days as a Weaver zombie.

The reality is that it probably doesn't make enough difference to worry about so long as you pick one that you can perform reliably.

Odin Bravo One
01-11-2012, 03:22 PM
This may be a purely competition driven issue because I would be hard pressed to intentionally unload my gun in the middle of an ongoing gunfight.

BINGO.

I have heard the phrase "lull in the fight" as the criteria for when such techniques should be used, but have never witnessed such a phenomenon in real life. Since I don't shoot competition, I have to assume that a "lull in the fight" occurs much more often there than in a real gunfight.

RobG
01-11-2012, 04:56 PM
Thanks for the replies. I had been running traditional tac loads in matches due to some perceived real world tactical advantage. I guess it is time for some square range testing to see if the "reload with retention" is faster for me. This might help to shave some time off the total score on my next match.

Zhurdan
01-11-2012, 05:03 PM
The main reason I like the "at the gun" reload is because I have to store that partial magazine somewhere. I'd prefer it's in a mag pouch and not in my pocket, so... remove magazine from the pouch, switch, put partial back in the pouch rather than have to fish it out of my pants pocket if it's needed.

As has been said though, I'd probably end up with a dry gun before processing the TOPITOFF program. (I like that programming talk Todd, writing a few jokes around that tonight methinks, thanks.)

ToddG
01-12-2012, 12:08 AM
The main reason I like the "at the gun" reload is because I have to store that partial magazine somewhere. I'd prefer it's in a mag pouch and not in my pocket, so... remove magazine from the pouch, switch, put partial back in the pouch rather than have to fish it out of my pants pocket if it's needed.

But following Sean's comment that "lulls" don't really happen and thus you're only likely to perform such a reload when you have good reason to believe hostilities have ended, you could just as easily put the partial mag in your pocket and then reload from the belt as normal... and then grab the spent mag out of your pocket and put it in your mag pouch.

agent-smith
01-12-2012, 01:37 AM
The main reason I like the "at the gun" reload is because I have to store that partial magazine somewhere. I'd prefer it's in a mag pouch and not in my pocket, so... remove magazine from the pouch, switch, put partial back in the pouch rather than have to fish it out of my pants pocket if it's needed.

I've actually gotten pretty fast at reloading "at the gun", but the more time passes the less I think it is a necessary skill.

I'm leaning more and more towards just going to nothing but "speed reloads" (let the mag fall to the ground and get a new one in toot-sweet) and carrying an additional spare magazine. To a person, the personal friends of mine that have been in combat (I haven't) have seen too many people fumble a "tactical"/"retention" reload for them to advocate doing so.

(FWIW I really don't often carry the additional spare magazine anymore (I still carry a spare, but only one))

Al T.
01-12-2012, 08:06 AM
IMHO, this is one area where the overlap from the military causes a bit of an issue. I had people tell me with a straight face that reloading with retention was needed since the "guys" in Post-Katrina New Orleans/Mogadishu/Fallujah/Korengal Valley found great value in keeping their magazines. :eek:

Luckily, I am not there. If I get to one of those places, I'm fairly confident my TTPs will adjust accordingly.

jlw
01-12-2012, 08:36 AM
The main reason I like the "at the gun" reload is because I have to store that partial magazine somewhere. I'd prefer it's in a mag pouch and not in my pocket, so... remove magazine from the pouch, switch, put partial back in the pouch rather than have to fish it out of my pants pocket if it's needed.

As has been said though, I'd probably end up with a dry gun before processing the TOPITOFF program. (I like that programming talk Todd, writing a few jokes around that tonight methinks, thanks.)

In all of the training I have received on the subject the tac reload was taught.

The training is also not to put a partial mag back into a pouch so that it won't be confused with a fully loaded mag.

Zhurdan
01-12-2012, 10:14 AM
But following Sean's comment that "lulls" don't really happen and thus you're only likely to perform such a reload when you have good reason to believe hostilities have ended, you could just as easily put the partial mag in your pocket and then reload from the belt as normal... and then grab the spent mag out of your pocket and put it in your mag pouch.

True enough. Scars is hard and stuff.

Zhurdan
01-12-2012, 10:15 AM
In all of the training I have received on the subject the tac reload was taught.

The training is also not to put a partial mag back into a pouch so that it won't be confused with a fully loaded mag.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. tac reload as I've been taught it was from the rear most spare magazine so your full spare is still in front.

ToddG
01-12-2012, 10:28 AM
The training is also not to put a partial mag back into a pouch so that it won't be confused with a fully loaded mag.

I only carry one spare mag. If I tac load, where does it make the most sense to put that partially spent magazine: in a pocket or from the pouch where all my reload practice happens?If I need to reload, I'd rather reload quickly to a partial mag then spent extra seconds grabbing it from my pocket. While reloading from a pocket might be straightforward on the range, it's not hard to find positions of cover that make getting into the pocket difficult. The same is true when moving in many cases. Plus, unless you wear the exact same trousers every day, other variables come into play. I practiced dumping a mag in my 5.11 pocket for IDPA tons of time, and then at a casual match one day I was wearing jeans and guess what? Those pockets aren't quite as easy.

As Zhurdan pointed out, if you've got more than one pouch, the partial mag goes in the one you'd normally access last.

Stuffbreaker
01-12-2012, 12:02 PM
Todd,
With respect to IDPA, were you stowing your mag to your mag holder or in your front pocket in Stage 3 of the IDPA Classifier you ran not long ago? Really impressive score, by the way. On a related note, I've seen pics of right handed competitors with a pocket knife suspiciously clipped in the left front pocket, presumably to create a small opening to expedite mag storage.

Odin Bravo One
01-12-2012, 12:04 PM
reloading with retention was needed since the "guys" in Post-Katrina New Orleans/Mogadishu/Fallujah/Korengal Valley found great value in keeping their magazines. :eek:



Prior to the Mogadishu debacle in 1993, the military did not bother with retaining magazines. After the dust had settled, and events analyzed, it made sense to retain magazines. Why? Because the men on the ground were re-supplied with crates of ammo and had been having a yard sale of empty mags along the way to their ultimate hard points, leaving them with nothing to put the freshly dropped ammunition in. As with most things, this seems silly to us now, but things change and evolve for a reason.

However, that was nearly 20 years ago, and as mentioned in the sentence above, things evolve and change.

Is there time and place to TR or RWR? Yeah, there is. But I don't think it is nearly as universal as many would have us believe. If it makes sense for such a technique to be used, then use it. But don't use it (or any technique for that matter) without first making an honest assessment and validation based on your own circumstances and situation.

Zhurdan
01-12-2012, 12:13 PM
Prior to the Mogadishu debacle in 1993, the military did not bother with retaining magazines. After the dust had settled, and events analyzed, it made sense to retain magazines. Why? Because the men on the ground were re-supplied with crates of ammo and had been having a yard sale of empty mags along the way to their ultimate hard points, leaving them with nothing to put the freshly dropped ammunition in. As with most things, this seems silly to us now, but things change and evolve for a reason.

However, that was nearly 20 years ago, and as mentioned in the sentence above, things evolve and change.

Is there time and place to TR or RWR? Yeah, there is. But I don't think it is nearly as universal as many would have us believe. If it makes sense for such a technique to be used, then use it. But don't use it (or any technique for that matter) without first making an honest assessment and validation based on your own circumstances and situation.

I think this is, by far, the most important thing. Not having been on the receiving end of accelerated lead pills, my frame of reference is purely theory based and instruction based. The thing I like about this site is that it has a tendency to point out my training scars. I started a list a while back, looks like I need to dig it up and add a few things to it.

Learning something from training classes and applying it (sort of) blindly could be fatal. Over the last year, I've really been focused on weeding out the "training" that either doesn't really apply to my circumstances or focusing on actually gaining value from it. One good example that I see all the time is when people scan and assess after a string of fire. Most times, they're just turning their head to show they've done it. Now, when I do it, I look for certain things. If there are other shooters around, I make it a point to check their hands, which way they are facing, etc. just as a mental exercise rather than just going thru the motions.

Mr_White
01-12-2012, 01:09 PM
In all of the training I have received on the subject the tac reload was taught.

The training is also not to put a partial mag back into a pouch so that it won't be confused with a fully loaded mag.

This is primarily what I have been taught as well...


I only carry one spare mag. If I tac load, where does it make the most sense to put that partially spent magazine: in a pocket or from the pouch where all my reload practice happens?If I need to reload, I'd rather reload quickly to a partial mag then spent extra seconds grabbing it from my pocket. While reloading from a pocket might be straightforward on the range, it's not hard to find positions of cover that make getting into the pocket difficult. The same is true when moving in many cases. Plus, unless you wear the exact same trousers every day, other variables come into play. I practiced dumping a mag in my 5.11 pocket for IDPA tons of time, and then at a casual match one day I was wearing jeans and guess what? Those pockets aren't quite as easy.

As Zhurdan pointed out, if you've got more than one pouch, the partial mag goes in the one you'd normally access last.

...With the same exception (put the partial in the mag pouch) Todd points out for a person who only carries one spare magazine.

I have an unusual position for my magazine pouches (11:30 and 12:00) but that's primarily for concealment reasons. I note that in addition to there being times where it is more difficult to reach the (back) pocket than the mag pouch, the reverse is also true; there are some times it is easier for me to reach the pocket than the mag pouch. Not that that changes anything for me. I am sure I am still going to try to reload out of the mag pouches and if I find no magazines there, start going to the pants pocket.

jlw
01-12-2012, 01:24 PM
I only carry one spare mag. If I tac load, where does it make the most sense to put that partially spent magazine: in a pocket or from the pouch where all my reload practice happens?If I need to reload, I'd rather reload quickly to a partial mag then spent extra seconds grabbing it from my pocket. While reloading from a pocket might be straightforward on the range, it's not hard to find positions of cover that make getting into the pocket difficult. The same is true when moving in many cases. Plus, unless you wear the exact same trousers every day, other variables come into play. I practiced dumping a mag in my 5.11 pocket for IDPA tons of time, and then at a casual match one day I was wearing jeans and guess what? Those pockets aren't quite as easy.

As Zhurdan pointed out, if you've got more than one pouch, the partial mag goes in the one you'd normally access last.

All of the training that I have received on the topic was duty related, and most duty rigs would typically have at least two spare mags. In IDPA the contestant is also typically carrying two spare mags.

In a practical sense, the wide opening of a pocket is easier to hit with the mag than is the opening of a mag pouch, especially if one is wearing a flap covered pouch common to a duty belt. I have sen some shooters be very good at stuffing the partial mag in their belt line.

ToddG
01-12-2012, 02:17 PM
Todd,
With respect to IDPA, were you stowing your mag to your mag holder or in your front pocket in Stage 3 of the IDPA Classifier you ran not long ago?

I cannot say I remember specifically, but the smart way to play Stage 3 is to do a RWR on String 1 and a traditional tac load in String 2 (because you can start moving forward as soon as the magazine is seated in the gun). I'm sure I was dropping mags in my pocket rather than taking the time to put them in a pouch because, well, it's a game and for whatever stupid reason they time a technique (RWR/tac load) that isn't supposed to be performed under time pressure.


All of the training that I have received on the topic was duty related, and most duty rigs would typically have at least two spare mags. In IDPA the contestant is also typically carrying two spare mags.

Then you draw from the rear pouch when performing your voluntary "break time" reload and put the partial in that pouch. Your front pouch still has a full mag. Again, the whole point is that if you feel you need x-number of mags and pouches, why would you stow one someplace unusual after bad things have already begun happening? There's simply no benefit to it.


In a practical sense, the wide opening of a pocket is easier to hit with the mag than is the opening of a mag pouch, especially if one is wearing a flap covered pouch common to a duty belt.

This only matters if you care about the speed at which you're performing the technique. At this point, most folks realize that any time speed is an issue, you shouldn't be performing one of these techniques.


I have sen some shooters be very good at stuffing the partial mag in their belt line.

That was all the rage when I last shot IDPA seriously ('07 or so). It's a perfectly legitimate way to game the system... remember, we're talking about a game in which you cannot reload out in the open and cannot even drop an empty magazine on the ground unless your slide is locked back. But from a practical standpoint the magazine is rarely stable enough to guarantee it will remain in accessible position under any kind of strenuous activity. It's a great way to do it fast when speed is more important than actually retaining the ammunition as if your life may depend on it.

jlw
01-12-2012, 02:56 PM
I cannot say I remember specifically, but the smart way to play Stage 3 is to do a RWR on String 1 and a traditional tac load in String 2 (because you can start moving forward as soon as the magazine is seated in the gun). I'm sure I was dropping mags in my pocket rather than taking the time to put them in a pouch because, well, it's a game and for whatever stupid reason they time a technique (RWR/tac load) that isn't supposed to be performed under time pressure.



Then you draw from the rear pouch when performing your voluntary "break time" reload and put the partial in that pouch. Your front pouch still has a full mag. Again, the whole point is that if you feel you need x-number of mags and pouches, why would you stow one someplace unusual after bad things have already begun happening? There's simply no benefit to it.



This only matters if you care about the speed at which you're performing the technique. At this point, most folks realize that any time speed is an issue, you shouldn't be performing one of these techniques.



That was all the rage when I last shot IDPA seriously ('07 or so). It's a perfectly legitimate way to game the system... remember, we're talking about a game in which you cannot reload out in the open and cannot even drop an empty magazine on the ground unless your slide is locked back. But from a practical standpoint the magazine is rarely stable enough to guarantee it will remain in accessible position under any kind of strenuous activity. It's a great way to do it fast when speed is more important than actually retaining the ammunition as if your life may depend on it.


No argument on the critique of IDPA. It is a fast technique for those that can pull it off though.

I do hold fast to the idea that hitting your pocket with the partial is easier than hitting the mag pouch, especially if it is a covered mag pouch (either by flap or cover garment). Why sweep something out of the way and try to hit a small opening when you can just shove it in a big opening. In the duty belt scenario with covered pouches, an open flap meant no mag, go to the next pouch. This is typically done in a sweeping motion and not a start stop motion. Also, at my prior agency, the mag pouches were worn horizontal on the strong side and were flap covered pouches.

If you can remember under stress to go rear pouch, great. From a teaching of the masses standpoint, I prefer the simpler approach of keeping the partial and full mags in separate places. Your students are paying to be there. I deal with fair number that only go to the range because they have to. Thinking only hurts the team sometimes.

A comparison of the techniques across a cross section of skill levels would be interesting. Let the timer be the judge. Also, put them in stress situations and see what percentage of shooters go to the first mag or remember to go to the second.

ToddG
01-12-2012, 03:08 PM
If you can remember under stress to go rear pouch, great.

Conversely, I'd say if you can remember to retrieve the magazine from whichever pocket you put it in, in whichever orientation it's sitting, under stress, great.

The difference is that presumably I'm only performing the mag stowage when I'm in control and feel like I have the time/safety to do so, whereas I may need that spare magazine (wherever it is) under immediate life-or-death circumstances and the stress that goes with it.


Let the timer be the judge.

I'm fine with that so long as everyone on my team gets to perform an in-battery "speed" reload, because if time is a factor that is what I would teach and what I would do. Retaining the magazine is a very low order priority for me, and even moreso if I've got yet another full spare magazine on my belt even after reloading the gun.


Also, put them in stress situations and see what percentage of shooters go to the first mag or remember to go to the second.

I'm fine with this so long, as mentioned above, they're also put under stress when it comes time to need that pocketed magazine right now when their pistol goes dry and their belt is out of spares.

jlw
01-12-2012, 03:30 PM
I'm fine with that so long as everyone on my team gets to perform an in-battery "speed" reload, because if time is a factor that is what I would teach and what I would do. Retaining the magazine is a very low order priority for me, and even moreso if I've got yet another full spare magazine on my belt even after reloading the gun.

I don't disagree with this at all, but the OP framed the question around retention versus tac reloads and not speed reloads. If a gun fight has gotten to the point that I am having to reload, the gun fight isn't going well...



Conversely, I'd say if you can remember to retrieve the magazine from whichever pocket you put it in, in whichever orientation it's sitting, under stress, great.

The difference is that presumably I'm only performing the mag stowage when I'm in control and feel like I have the time/safety to do so, whereas I may need that spare magazine (wherever it is) under immediate life-or-death circumstances and the stress that goes with it.

That is a very reasonable statement when taken in that context. If the question is which is the fastest way to complete the initial reload, I think the timer would show going to a pocket is faster. If the question is having to retrieve the partial mag and perform a reload with it, that adds to the dynamic some. Would the faster storage method be negated by a slower secondary retrieval? Clothing styles and pocket contents would also have an impact on that as well.

ToddG
01-12-2012, 03:41 PM
I don't disagree with this at all, but the OP framed the question around retention versus tac reloads and not speed reloads.

Understood. And my original comment was that worrying about the time factor for either was a red herring. You continued to focus on the time factor, so I'm saying that if time is a factor I'm going to do it the fast way, not the medium-slow way. Debating whether it takes more time to put a mag in a pouch or a pocket seems like splitting hairs when obviously both options are far slower than a speed reload. Either time matters or it doesn't.


Would the faster storage method be negated by a slower secondary retrieval?

This might matter in a game context where (a) both the stowage and retrieval are equally "on the clock" and (b) both steps will be undertaken with the same level of stress. Outside of that limited context, though, there is a difference in the likelihood of both time requirements and stress between the two steps. If you have the time and wherewithal to perform any kind of retention reload, odds are you are less stressed and less pressed for time than if your gun goes dry while something evil is still standing. As such, I'd put more weight on having a fast reload from the stowed mag than a fast stowage of that mag.

Slavex
01-22-2012, 05:38 AM
I'm an IPSC guy so for me all my reloads are dump the mag and go. However I get to participate in force on force training a fair bit. My first time (and I was badguy) I was given an extra mag. During the scenario I barricaded myself in a room and reloaded. My natural instinct, having never practiced this, was remove mag, put in pocket and grab new mag and insert. To me it made sense, didn't require handling two mags and was fast. All the things I prefer. Is it right? I don't know. But I've done it that way almost overtime since.