Not Just P320.

[Jim Watson]

Not a hatchet job on Glock, just that that was what it was at the local 3 gun shoot today.
Reported by the Match Director:
"I had just gotten done giving the safety brief and was the first shooter up. Shot my pistol, was holstering it and reaching for my shotgun. I felt it at the holster and thought it was in and turned lose. It wasn't and hit the ground.
Worst of it was that it hit on the butt of the slide and grip, then it fired one round. After the initial WTF, everyone checked themselves for extra holes and then jumped into action clearing the guns.
I've been shooting competitions for 18 years now and know better than to turn lose of the pistol unless I know it's in, but today I screwed up.
As to why the pistol went off. It's a Glock 35 gen 3. Has a stock trigger and connector bar but a Zev spring kit. Best estimate is 2,000 + rds through it since the springs were put in. Pretty sure a weak plunger safety spring is the problem. From know on I'll replace the springs every 1,000 rounds and make sure my gun is firmly in the holster before letting go."

Combination of hot holstering on the clock and apparently a limber spring kit.

It is easy to say "Don't drop your gun." but stuff happens. But you don't have to set yourself up for it. Only time I have shot 3 gun in modern times, the pistol was to be shot dry and holstered or grounded empty. Guess they do things differently now.

[HCM]

Not really comparable to the P320 since the drop only resulted in the pistol firing due to aftermarket modifications.

Stuff does happen but people re-holster under stress in the real world all the time.

We have an I dropped my pistol once" thread - https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27144-I-dropped-my-pistol-once

[Jim Watson]

Yup. "Don't drop your gun." AND "Don't meddle with your mechanisms."

[fixer]

Zev Spring kit:

http://www.zevtechnologies.com/ZEV-Competition-Spring-Kit_2

plunger spring, striker spring, and trigger spring. Yeah I'd say that might be a change to the 'mass-spring-damper' system.

[John Hearne]

I had an interesting conversation with an "old timer" who shared that the S&W M39 had teething problem when it was first released and would fire when dropped. S&W quickly swept the issue under the rug and paid off the injured parties. That was the 1950's.

[holmes168]

Perhaps people who don't like the characteristics of a Glock trigger should shoot a different gun instead of swapping out trigger/fire control components.

I know nothing beyond what's reported in the OP, but I'm equally (if not more) sure the problem with that gun is more than a "weak plunger safety spring".

I replaced a connector on my Gen 4 G-19 before really educating myself. Reading people like Tom Jones has made me understand that changing out the guts of your gun is a horrible idea. I will change sights, get a SCD, and no issues with a stipple job, but never again the working parts of the gun. They are made a certain way for a reason. I firmly switched to Glock after the P320 issue because for me that is the best option.

[Jim Watson]

Perhaps people who don't like the characteristics of a Glock trigger should shoot a different gun instead of swapping out trigger/fire control components.

The PD and the Army and other armed government agencies can and do require their employees to use stock weapons.
Telling a competitor not to modify his gun is pretty much a waste of breath. They are going to pursue every advantage they can, real or imagined.

[JHC]

The PD and the Army and other armed government agencies can and do require their employees to use stock weapons.
Telling a competitor not to modify his gun is pretty much a waste of breath. They are going to pursue every advantage they can, real or imagined.

They need an X5!!! ;) But this goes very much to the discussion on that other thread about pistols allowed in training classes. There are a LOT of Zev spring kits installed (it appears that may be implicated).

[RAM Engineer]

I find the title of this thread to be very "click-baity". It implies that the issue with stock P320s affects other stock guns. In reality, it shows that any gun can be screwed up when armchair gunsmiths deviate from stock fire control geometry.

[Sensei]

This anecdote is far more damning of the Zev Spring Kit than Glock.

[JonInWA]

Absolutely-especially when some of the key components of the Zev kit are a reduced power firing pin spring and reduced power firing pin safety spring. To me, it kind of defines both the Law of Unintended Consequences and an accident waiting to happen. The causal factor(s) had everything to do with the replacement of safety-adequate/vetted OEM components with cottage-industry ones. I seriously question worth of such components, sacrificing safety for what would seem to be mere fractional increases in "performance."

I would not countenance running such nonsense in any firearm even remotely having the potential to be used as a defensive weapon.

Best, Jon

[PensFan]

Likely more done to that gun than just springs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bucky]

Some people will go to the extreme with their guns, without any regard for potential consequences. We had a guy at a match have his Glock go off on the draw. Multiple credible witnesses saw he never touched the trigger. An examination afterwards show that every factory safety was disabled.

I'd not go that extreme, but admittedly I have Vanek prod legal kits in a couple of my competition only guns. Makes me wonder if they are drop safe.

[Jim Watson]

The gun in the OP was found by the owner to be very dirty, the striker block "sticky" in its hole under a weak spring.

Is the Glock like the early disastrous claims for the M16, a gun that does not need cleaning?
Are the other plastic wonders being treated like that?

[Sigfan26]

The gun in the OP was found by the owner to be very dirty, the striker block "sticky" in its hole under a weak spring.

Is the Glock like the early disastrous claims for the M16, a gun that does not need cleaning?
Are the other plastic wonders being treated like that?

If people would stop trying to get 3# triggers in a gun that is supposed to have a 4-6# trigger pull, it wouldn't be an issue. Stick to OEM weight Springs, a factory "-" connector, and a trigger "shoe" with slight pretravel that uses an unmodified OEM trigger bar and maintains positive safety tab engagement, and shit like this doesn't generally happen. But, that will probably net a 4.5-5# pull (not enough to "buy" performance)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[littlejerry]

Absolutely-especially when some of the key components of the Zev kit are a reduced power firing pin spring and reduced power firing pin safety spring. To me, it kind of defines both the Law of Unintended Consequences and an accident waiting to happen. The causal factor(s) had everything to do with the replacement of safety-adequate/vetted OEM components with cottage-industry ones. I seriously question worth of such components, sacrificing safety for what would seem to be mere fractional increases in "performance."

I would not countenance running such nonsense in any firearm even remotely having the potential to be used as a defensive weapon.

Best, Jon

I'm gonna go off on mini rant here:

Unintended consequences? More like Cletus-level shade tree engineering. Actually, "engineering" is a bit generous since it assumes you've performed some level of critical thinking.

As a manufacturer/supplier/brand of repalcement parts for prodcuts which can easy kill people you have a duty to perform due diligence and verify the safe function of those parts. If you choose to not validate or ignore funtional issues, it's your duty to inform the consumer of any risk associated with using your product. "May fire if dropped" is one of those things.

Based on prior shortages experience I wouldn't be surprised if these guys were completely clueless their product was unsafe.... Which is why I'll never touch a anything with their label on it.

/ Rant off

ETA my rant is directed at the MFR which SHOULD know better, not the poster.

[Bucky]

If people would stop trying to get 3# triggers in a gun that is supposed to have a 4-6# trigger pull, it wouldn't be an issue. Stick to OEM weight Springs, a factory "-" connector, and a trigger "shoe" with slight pretravel that uses an unmodified OEM trigger bar and maintains positive safety tab engagement, and shit like this doesn't generally happen. But, that will probably net a 4.5-5# pull (not enough to "buy" performance)


I actually believe you can safely get a 2 1/2 trigger pull from a Glock. However, I also believe the only way to go about this is to not seriously alter the length of pull or any of the geometry of the trigger components. That being said, I'd only do mods to a competition or range only gun.

I think the biggest problem with Glocks is that, being they are so easy to work on, everybody is working on them. I've heard people say elsewhere that the main reason they buy Glocks is because of this, and other guns are to complicated. Of course with that mindset I wonder, are they really qualified to work on their Glocks, or just able to?

[rob_s]

I think the biggest problem with Glocks is that, being they are so easy to work on, everybody is working on them.

Maybe as compared to other guns on the market, but not as compared to any other gun in any particular era. Before Glock's there was a massive sharpie tree guns itching market for 1911s and people hacked away at them the same way.

[farscott]

I had an interesting conversation with an "old timer" who shared that the S&W M39 had teething problem when it was first released and would fire when dropped. S&W quickly swept the issue under the rug and paid off the injured parties. That was the 1950's.

Yes, the 1st Generation S&W autos (M39 and M59) did not have a firing pin block and could fire if dropped and the safety was OFF. With the safety ON, the 1st Generation guns are drop safe as the safety both blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin and locks the firing pin. If one carries one of the 1st Generation guns, it should be carried with the safety ON. Otherwise (safety OFF) an impact to the hammer or dropping the gun so it landed "muzzle down" could cause the pistol to fire.

The 2nd Generation guns (M439, M539, M549, M559, etc.) introduced a firing pin safety and are drop safe with the safety ON or OFF as the firing pin is locked until the trigger travels some distance and pushes the firing pin block out of the way of the firing pin travel. This feature was carried over to the 3rd Generation guns.

[RAM Engineer]

If you look at the horrendous bad taste that goes into just the aesthetics of Zev stuff, it will make you wonder what kind of equally horrendous poor "engineering" judgement they probably have too. This goes for all those companies that hack up slides and cut holes in them and machine fancy grasping areas on every square inch, chop up trigger guards, etc. etc.

Someone with a face tattoo PROBABLY isn't going to exercise great judgement in ANY area of their life.

ZEV, Salient, and all those aftermarket Glock companies are the equivalent of bro jeans, Affliction shirts, dumb tattoos and hair gel.

[fatdog]

Yes, the 1st Generation S&W autos (M39 and M59) did not have a firing pin block and could fire if dropped and the safety was OFF.

Late-70's I was a working medic in Western KY, one of the local deputies was involved in a crash. He had a 39-2 that he used as his "out of the holster" cruiser gun and I know he sometimes had it under his leg and sometimes in the seat divider, etc. Anyhow, it discharged in the crash, probably due to inertia. We knew because there was a partially ejected case in the ejection port. He had a small wound in his leg that was not serious that could have been a richochett, or shrapnel, etc. that we noted, but his upper body injuries were more serious (steering wheel) and got our attention.

I had purchased a 39-2 myself during that time period, they were considered cool because of ISP use (across the river from us) etc. After working that wreck I understood it was not drop or crash safe with the safety off.

[JonInWA]

I was at an excellent class last weekend, where the instructor mention that amateurs and hobbyists concentrate on equipment/equipment adds/mods, but professionals concentrate on mindset, training and practice. I thought that bore repeating here, although most of us on this forum are probably significantly ahead of the curve regarding it.

Best, Jon

[rob_s]

I was at an excellent class last weekend, where the instructor mention that amateurs and hobbyists concentrate on equipment/equipment adds/mods, but professionals concentrate on mindset, training and practice. I thought that bore repeating here, although most of us on this forum are probably significantly ahead of the curve regarding it.

Best, Jon

Isn't that the Lt Col. Grossman quote re-stated?
"Amateurs talk hardware. Professionals talk software."

I frankly think it gets over-stated by amateurs looking to act like they know more than they do, but the concept is probably accurate in a vacuum.

[psalms144.1]

Isn't that the Lt Col. Grossman quote re-stated?
"Amateurs talk hardware. Professionals talk software."

I frankly think it gets over-stated by amateurs looking to act like they know more than they do, but the concept is probably accurate in a vacuum.And that's Grossman's tweak on the old Army truism: "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics." Of course, in the Army, that's logistics with a BIG "L" - like, how do we get this division from point A to point B, in combat, without running out of fuel and ammunition - a lot different from "which pistol should I carry today to match my shoes..."

[fixer]

If you look at the horrendous bad taste that goes into just the aesthetics of Zev stuff, it will make you wonder what kind of equally horrendous poor "engineering" judgement they probably have too. This goes for all those companies that hack up slides and cut holes in them and machine fancy grasping areas on every square inch, chop up trigger guards, etc. etc.

Someone with a face tattoo PROBABLY isn't going to exercise great judgement in ANY area of their life.

ZEV, Salient, and all those aftermarket Glock companies are the equivalent of bro jeans, Affliction shirts, dumb tattoos and hair gel.

gotta admit I lol'ed

[rob_s]

And that's Grossman's tweak on the old Army truism: "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics." Of course, in the Army, that's logistics with a BIG "L" - like, how do we get this division from point A to point B, in combat, without running out of fuel and ammunition - a lot different from "which pistol should I carry today to match my shoes..."

I realize I'm hijacking here but...

I like the "old Army truism" and your explanation best. It holds true even in business (like a lot of Army stuff does, but a lot also doesn't) where I hear middle-to-upper management constantly getting lost in the weeds and missing the fact that the biggest impact is always at the highest level. Also fits with the concept of "Commander's Intent" and "decentralized command" outlilned in Jocko Willink's Extreme Ownership (https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs-ebook/dp/B00VE4Y0Z2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1504171235&sr=8-1&keywords=extreme+ownership).