Lehigh has changed my idea of a field pistol

[SamAdams]

Wondering about accuracy with these bullets, I shot a couple of 5-shot groups at 25 yards. Lehigh penetrator 115 in a CZ P-10c averaged 2 3/8”. As a control, American Eagle 147 averaged 1 3/4”. Lehigh penetrator .44 Special 220’s, 1 group of 2 7/8” out of a 4” 624.

How did the 220s 'feel' outta your 624 ? I shoot a lot of 250gr Keiths out of various 44 Special revolvers and wonder how the Lehigh bullet would do. Were you shooting Lehigh, Underwood, or your own handloads ? Thanks

[SteveB]

Snappy. Underwood ammo; listed at 1050 fps, but barrel length not listed.

[Malamute]

Bill Rogers prefers 147 grain 9mm at their school for reduced concussion. He says an unsurpressed 5.56 under 14 inches is the quickest flinch inducer known to man. Stand under the roof at the school, next to a .40 or .357 Sig, and you want to move away.

After not shooting ARs for a number of years, and mostly with 20"ers when I did, then shooting a 16" carbine, the very first thing that crossed my mind was "MFer thats LOUD". The shorter ones have got to be wicked for us blast wimps with messed up hearing.

I'm certain if i carried a 357, Id hesitate before shooting because of the muzzle blast. I havent had that level of hesitation and perceived blast aversion in other calibers, even 44 mag.

[Frank R]

underwood 45 acp xtreme penetrator bear skull. Saw this on You Tube.

[SamAdams]

Hmmmm . . . using brown bear skull. 10mm & 44 mag



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yzxL9r_1IF0


Guy has other videos too - 9mm & black bear skull



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dv5LSsss3U

[SamAdams]

Spray vs Guns against Bears -



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aDtUBJm4la0

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

After not shooting ARs for a number of years, and mostly with 20"ers when I did, then shooting a 16" carbine, the very first thing that crossed my mind was "MFer thats LOUD". The shorter ones have got to be wicked for us blast wimps with messed up hearing.

I'm certain if i carried a 357, Id hesitate before shooting because of the muzzle blast. I havent had that level of hesitation and perceived blast aversion in other calibers, even 44 mag.

5.56 was designed specifically for 20" barrel, with the AR and 5.56 being designed for one another. I will only even own AR's with 20" barrels anymore, a lot of other good reasons for this... FWIW.

[GJM]

Hmmmm . . . using brown bear skull. 10mm & 44 mag



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yzxL9r_1IF0


Guy has other videos too - 9mm & black bear skull



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dv5LSsss3U

Looked at some of the guy's videos and I am not impressed.

[SamAdams]

Yeah, I agree. It's pretty wonky looking. Not exactly super scientific. But haven't seen anyone else actually shoot a bear skull with Lehigh Penetrators.


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[GJM]

Yeah, I agree. It's pretty wonky looking. Not exactly super scientific. But haven't seen anyone else actually shoot a bear skull with Lehigh Penetrators.


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I actually couldn't make it to that part as he turned me off before.

[SamAdams]

That's too bad. Actually the Penetrators did very well. And the 9mm version had no problem going through the black bear skull. I wish the guy didn't get so damned close when shooting the skulls though.

The fellow said the Xtreme Penetrator bullet is very popular in Alaska & has changed the game for many guys up there in terms of bear defense sidearms. I dunno how true that is.


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[PNWTO]

Here's a question. Assuming a competent shooter (removing the administrative handling advantage a revolver has with less dedicated shooters) do revolvers still have a place as field pistols in the lower 48 or better yet in non-grizzly country?

I'm a little late to the party but I have found that I like revolvers for their triggers and grips (stocks), both SA and DA, in the field for both heavy gloves (rifle season) and when I have my archery tab on (recurve bow). The weight sucks but I am not quite ready to get a 329PD to even that out.

[Malamute]

Here's a question. Assuming a competent shooter (removing the administrative handling advantage a revolver has with less dedicated shooters) do revolvers still have a place as field pistols in the lower 48 or better yet in non-grizzly country? We know there are a ton of things the bottom feeder does better, the only things I can think a revolver offers are less rounds needed to verify reliability and (possibly) better functioning with a bad grip from wounds or position due to a clinch with a bear.

I'm not trying to make a case for the wheel gun, I'm trying to make sure I stay objective. I have a S&W 25-5 I had bought as a field sidearm but honestly I'm not seeing a functional reason to use it in that capacity opposed to my carry gun (G19 or even G26) with Lehigh penetrators...


I haven't had much inclination to forsake revolvers so far. Light weight and capacity are what modern self loaders have. I still like traditional heavy loads for field use, as well as ease of using a variety of loads with no functional problems. The revolver trigger action is still better than most autos, as well as mechanical, or at least practical accuracy from what I'm capable of getting out of autos hasn't ever consistently matched what good examples of revolvers do. Theres also the like factor. I certainly understand the desire to find the most up to date or "efficient" pistol for field use, but theres also the element of shooting things we like more than things we "should" shoot to get good with. The strict desire for practice for practice sake, or the desire to shoot more because one really likes the gun and shooting them don't always overlap. Once the new wore off, shooting Glocks doesn't make me grin or say 'Wow!", other guns do.

If you decide to move the obsolescent 25-5 along,.... :)

[sharps54]

PNWTO & Malamute,

You both raise some interesting points and have given me something to consider.

[rjohnson4405]

5.56 was designed specifically for 20" barrel, with the AR and 5.56 being designed for one another. I will only even own AR's with 20" barrels anymore, a lot of other good reasons for this... FWIW.

Wait...Really?! Almost all ammunition development for ARs in the last 10 years is for 16" barrels. Especially on the LE side (not required to be FMJ). Any other reason besides the design 30+ years ago started with 20" barrels in mind?

[Malamute]

PNWTO & Malamute,

You both raise some interesting points and have given me something to consider.

I dont know if theres only one correct answer to the question of bear gun/load, or if we can entirely dismiss personal preference from the equation. It seems that more than one thing works.

Head penetrating shots are good of course, but part of the old school rationalizing of heavy loads and bullets was being able to break large bones elsewhere in the body if the head shot didnt go perfectly as planned. We have some examples in the past of people shooting deep enough to break shoulders or hips after shooting through most of the length of the bear, or heavy bones from the side. G may be on to something with the concept of they dont like getting shot with anything, but I havent given up the uber penetration/break large bones idea yet. Light weight guns are nice to carry, though the weight of the standard DA and SA revolvers dont bother me so far, other than being gimped up and much walking of any sort isnt possible yet. Like I said, I think theres different answers for different people.

[GJM]

As a pure bear gun, I would take a DA Smith .44 Magnum all day. The virtue of the semi is how versatile it is on stuff other than bears, how much ammo it holds, how fast to reload, how easy it is to carry, and how much more most of us train with semi auto pistols.

[fatdog]

Here's a question. Assuming a competent shooter (removing the administrative handling advantage a revolver has with less dedicated shooters) do revolvers still have a place as field pistols in the lower 48 or better yet in non-grizzly country? We know there are a ton of things the bottom feeder does better, the only things I can think a revolver offers are less rounds needed to verify reliability and (possibly) better functioning with a bad grip from wounds or position due to a clinch with a bear....

I pondered this very question for a long time. I had a S&W Model 29 that was my woods gun for a long time, probably 15 years. I came to realize how collectable those have become and mine was lock free and in very good condition. I sold it and was able to pick up a pair of used but very good condition HK USP 45 FS gun's for the cash I got for it. I am happy with the trade out and decision.

My outdoor time is mostly just a few minutes from my house, in the Talladega National Forrest, which has plenty of black bears but my greater concern is human predators and drug growers/manufacturers who are up there operating or the random crack/opiod addict who comes to stick up the little rural country stores I stop at up there (and they do that now, and sometimes murder people). I do try to trip out to North West WY almost every other year and I am pretty confident the USP 45/Underwood 45 Super is adequate for those woods now too.

[PNWTO]

PNWTO & Malamute,

You both raise some interesting points and have given me something to consider.

I think the uniqueness of each situation is what makes this continue to be such an open-ended thing. GJM has some great points regard sheer praticality which I agree with, but let's look at my special snowflake example: with an archery tab (example below) I can grab and trigger-index a Blackhawk much better than a Glock. I'm more concerned about being able to shoot my bow quickly and as accurately as possible, everything else is secondary to me. I do wish there was a single action equivalent for the 329PD concept.

20474


I dont know if theres only one correct answer to the question of bear gun/load, or if we can entirely dismiss personal preference from the equation. It seems that more than one thing works.

I don't think you ever can, especially when geography and fauna is uniquely different for most users in this discussion.

[JHC]

I dont know if theres only one correct answer to the question of bear gun/load, or if we can entirely dismiss personal preference from the equation. It seems that more than one thing works.

Head penetrating shots are good of course, but part of the old school rationalizing of heavy loads and bullets was being able to break large bones elsewhere in the body if the head shot didnt go perfectly as planned. We have some examples in the past of people shooting deep enough to break shoulders or hips after shooting through most of the length of the bear, or heavy bones from the side. G may be on to something with the concept of they dont like getting shot with anything, but I havent given up the uber penetration/break large bones idea yet. Light weight guns are nice to carry, though the weight of the standard DA and SA revolvers dont bother me so far, other than being gimped up and much walking of any sort isnt possible yet. Like I said, I think theres different answers for different people.

Shoulders matter. Remember the widely published brown bear attack on a fishing party on Kodiak years ago? The bear charged them on the shoreline.

Designated shotgun guy threw the shottie and dove in any started swimming. Other guy with a Ruger 9mm opened up with FMJ ammo. He caught the bear just right in the shoulder and broke it down, then finished it with shots to the head.

One of the the boutique heavy cast ammo company pages has an argument on the site that some of the heavy revolver loads have flattened big bears with body hits.

[sharps54]

I think this is something that will require some range time. Funny enough I'm going to the monthly meeting of a local archery club this evening and plan on bow hunting next year so the archery arguments are hitting home.

[Lester Polfus]

I think this is something that will require some range time. Funny enough I'm going to the monthly meeting of a local archery club this evening and plan on bow hunting next year so the archery arguments are hitting home.

Yeah bud. I archery hunt with a longbow, and use a glove. I've done live fire with the archery glove and my particular glove lets me shoot a G20 safely and accurately. It's good to figure these things out ahead of time.

Also, don't know if you are planning on tree stand hunting, but I think every tree-stand harness I've seen has a waist belt of some sort, which prohibits belt carry of a hand gun. I've solved this problem by using either a Safariland drop ALS holster, or a HIll People Gear kit bag. I've found the kit bag doesn't require much modification in my form.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Wait...Really?! Almost all ammunition development for ARs in the last 10 years is for 16" barrels. Especially on the LE side (not required to be FMJ). Any other reason besides the design 30+ years ago started with 20" barrels in mind?

You are likely thinking of bullet design for hollow points, I am referring to the cartridge as a whole.... powder capacity, burn rate, pressures. There is no denying it needs a longer barrel (as do all high velocity rifle cartridges) to have the best overall performance.

If you care to do some reading, it is a known fact that James Sullivan redesigned Eugene Stoner's AR-10 (7.62) to use what was the military's desire for a lighter, smaller caliber high velocity cartridge. The rifle and ammo was developed at the same exact time...

http://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=110

http://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=110

http://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=107

[SamAdams]

Shoulders matter. Remember the widely published brown bear attack on a fishing party on Kodiak years ago? The bear charged them on the shoreline.

Designated shotgun guy threw the shottie and dove in any started swimming. Other guy with a Ruger 9mm opened up with FMJ ammo. He caught the bear just right in the shoulder and broke it down, then finished it with shots to the head.

One of the the boutique heavy cast ammo company pages has an argument on the site that some of the heavy revolver loads have flattened big bears with body hits.

I know I have referenced it the past, maybe others have done so too. A fellow who had posted as 'JJ HACK' on various forums is (or was - I don't know his current situation) a long time hunting guide who has killed many bears. His recommendations for bear defense hand guns & ammo: For large bears - griz & brownies - he recommended hardcast wide meplat lead to break down bone.. For black bears he recommended stout JHPs followed by the hardcast lead if needed. His reasoning was that he had seen that black bears would either run away or swat at the 'hornet sting' like wound to the body, of the JHP. If not outright killed by it, they would be anchored/distracted by the JHP bodyshot, and be set up for a kill shot from the hardcast lead to the head.
He wasn't impressed by the performance of service pistols used by clients to hunt black bears, so he recommended revolvers of at least 44 Mag class. This was some time back. There are improved JHP bullets now & also the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator.

I'm still working this out. I spend 1/3 of my outdoor time in griz country, 2/3 in black bear/mountain lion country. Would I need 7+ shots to end a bear encounter ? How much weight do I give to the lower pressure & muzzle blast of my favorite 44 Special and 45 Colt d.a. revolvers ? On the other hand, I definitely can shoot a semi auto pistol quicker with accuracy. Many factors to consider.

[sharps54]

I know I have referenced it the past, maybe others have done so too. A fellow who had posted as 'JJ HACK' on various forums is (or was - I don't know his current situation) a long time hunting guide who has killed many bears. His recommendations for bear defense hand guns & ammo: For large bears - griz & brownies - he recommended hardcast wide meplat lead to break down bone.. For black bears he recommended stout JHPs followed by the hardcast lead if needed. His reasoning was that he had seen that black bears would either run away or swat at the 'hornet sting' like wound to the body, of the JHP. If not outright killed by it, they would be anchored/distracted by the JHP bodyshot, and be set up for a kill shot from the hardcast lead to the head.
He wasn't impressed by the performance of service pistols used by clients to hunt black bears, so he recommended revolvers of at least 44 Mag class. This was some time back. There are improved JHP bullets now & also the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator.

I'm still working this out. I spend 1/3 of my outdoor time in griz country, 2/3 in black bear/mountain lion country. Would I need 7+ shots to end a bear encounter ? How much weight do I give to the lower pressure & muzzle blast of my favorite 44 Special and 45 Colt d.a. revolvers ? On the other hand, I definitely can shoot a semi auto pistol quicker with accuracy. Many factors to consider.

This is where I am coming from since I don't expect to come across a grizzly here in the southeast. Is carrying the revolver, because I do like it and think it is "better", actually counter productive?

[sharps54]

Yeah bud. I archery hunt with a longbow, and use a glove. I've done live fire with the archery glove and my particular glove lets me shoot a G20 safely and accurately. It's good to figure these things out ahead of time.

Also, don't know if you are planning on tree stand hunting, but I think every tree-stand harness I've seen has a waist belt of some sort, which prohibits belt carry of a hand gun. I've solved this problem by using either a Safariland drop ALS holster, or a HIll People Gear kit bag. I've found the kit bag doesn't require much modification in my form.

I've got a tanker style holster that works with my tree harness while rifle hunting. Once I get my archery gear locked in I'll put a lock-on stand up in my back yard and try everything to make sure there aren't any conflicts. Same with the Model 25-5/bottom feeder discussion, once my archery gear is locked in I'll go to the range and do some testing.

[SamAdams]

It's likely situational IMO. I usually go into high mountain remote backcountry. Tough to get back there. Drug dealers and other lowlifes don't really hang out there. So, I may not have the need for higher capacity like guys who are more likely to run into drug operations.


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[Lester Polfus]

It's likely situational IMO. I usually go into high mountain remote backcountry. Tough to get back there. Drug dealers and other lowlifes don't really hang out there. So, I may not have the need for higher capacity like guys who are more likely to run into drug operations.


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Zactly. If this was just a Bit Damn Animal problem, I'd carry a .44 magnum wheelgun and stop worrying about it. It's when I combine the Big Damn Animal Problem with the Crew Cab Pickup Full of Tweakers problem that I start looking for an auto pistol solution.

I spend quite a bit of time in the National Forest, but it's usually in areas that are accessible by road. There's some sketchy shit going on up there at times.

When we've been afoot on the PCT, hours or days walk from roads, we've never run into issues.

[Duelist]

Where I am, and the stuff I see around and the size of the cat and black bear population we have, it doesn't even make sense to me to carry a revolver when I can get so many more rounds in a similar size/weight package, and in many cases, I can even go lighter. And have an easier to shoot gun.

I haven't sold off my revolvers, but I don't shoot them very much.

[Velo Dog]

Although this thread has focused primarily on bear defense, I do not live in bear country. There are nearby zoos, however. I think GJM's concept of an autoloading field pistol is a fine one for a congress of escaped orangutans or even a waddle of feral penguins, for that matter.

Note: A group of the great apes is called a congress; this should not be taken as a disparaging comment on our fine elected officials.

[Wondering Beard]

Note: A group of the great apes is called a congress; this should not be taken as a disparaging comment on our fine elected officials.

Though, it could be looked upon as a happy and appropriate coincidence.

[Lester Polfus]

Although this thread has focused primarily on bear defense, I do not live in bear country. There are nearby zoos, however. I think GJM's concept of an autoloading field pistol is a fine one for a congress of escaped orangutans or even a waddle of feral penguins, for that matter.

Note: A group of the great apes is called a congress; this should not be taken as a disparaging comment on our fine elected officials.

I feel that the threat posed by feral penguins is insufficiently addressed by the tactical community.

[GJM]

Midway has Underwood Lehigh on sale and I bought some 9 and 10mm today.

[JHC]

Although this thread has focused primarily on bear defense, I do not live in bear country. There are nearby zoos, however. I think GJM's concept of an autoloading field pistol is a fine one for a congress of escaped orangutans or even a waddle of feral penguins, for that matter.

Note: A group of the great apes is called a congress; this should not be taken as a disparaging comment on our fine elected officials.

Atlanta had an escaped adult tiger loose about a week ago. When it attacked a dog in a neighborhood, the police shot and killed it.

[Bigghoss]

I wonder what tiger tastes like...

https://pics.me.me/hmmmm-17608542.png

[Velo Dog]

Atlanta had an escaped adult tiger loose about a week ago. When it attacked a dog in a neighborhood, the police shot and killed it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zrT6ZuJvmE

[Frank R]

Midway has Underwood Lehigh on sale and I bought some 9 and 10mm today.

Have you shot any Underwood in 38 spl. yet?

[5pins]

I feel that the threat posed by feral penguins is insufficiently addressed by the tactical community.

Isn't that what SEAL's are for.

[fatdog]

Have you shot any Underwood in 38 spl. yet?

Not GJM but I did test some of the .38 Special (not labeled +P) Underwood stuff, their"defender" not "penetrator" Lehigh bullets.

Two hard primers that caused my old D frame to need a second strike, which I found troubling, will not load the Colt with these. Felt recoil was very similar to the +P loading of the 110gr Barnes copper bullets as loaded by Buffalo bore, not mild but tolerable.

Underwood Ammunition 38 Special 100 Grain Lehigh Xtreme Defender

S&W J frame 640 1 7/8” barrel
1196.6 fps Average
27.6 Standard Deviation
80 Extreme Spread
POI =1 3/8” low and 3/4” left at 8 yards


S&W M12-3 2” barrel
1194.6 fps Average
21.8 Standard deviation
68 Extreme Spread
POI=1 3/8” left and elevation correct at 8 yards

Colt D frame Agent 2” barrel
1222.5 fps Average
19.2 Standard Deviation
51 Extreme Spread
POI=1” high and 1 1/2 “ left at 8 yards

[Gun Mutt]

About a decade ago, I lived 10mi from the only stop light in Big Sky, MT. Primary edc was my G20, a custom load of 175gr Silver Tip in the chamber, the inserted mag either more ST or Double Tap's 200gr WFNGC hardcast, depending on my proximity to concrete. I also had a 4" 1911 with hp in chamber & more hot DT flat points that I'd often carry if I was going into Bozeman for the day.

On one of those days in Bozeman, I stumbled across a grail gun: 4" 629 w/pinned barrel, recessed chambers & hammer mounted firing pin. I haggled a measly $25 off the price, put it on layawake & had to make the long trek through the canyon again the next day to bring it home. I loved the pistol, loved shooting it and experiencing all the different loads available for it, but couldn't learn to love carrying it, too spoiled by flat, lighter autos by then. By the time I'd owned it a month, I didn't carry it at all.

Running hot 10mm against various levels of .44 for time and hits wasn't even a contest; I had never put the training time into revolvers, I'd shot them all my life, but I hadn't pushed the issue. For a potential life & death situation, I choose semi-auto.

And fwiw, the last time I was coerced into a family trip to the zoo, I thought it imminently reasonable to eschew my G19 in favor of my G20 again. This Lehigh thread has definitely kept my interest.

[s0nspark]

Any thoughts on the +P vs +P+ in 9mm with this load?

[GJM]

Underwood lists the +P at 1,250 and +P+ at 1,350 fps. I didn't even know the +P+ load existed, and only have tested the +P, which has functioned in numerous 9mm pistols. I am not sure that the extra 100 fps will be meaningful in penetration, but I worry about it being more at the edge of the reliability envelope. Thoughts?


Any thoughts on the +P vs +P+ in 9mm with this load?

[Salamander]

Underwood has a sale going on through midnight tonight, 10% off after entering the sale code at checkout.

I've currently got 9mm 115 gr +p and 357 magnum 140 gr and am keeping a magazine full of the former for woods use in California, one of my current projects is along the Smith River and 9mm should be plenty for anything I'm likely to encounter there. There's more 9mm +p and some +p+ on the way, I'm using it in a P2000 but have only tested the +p so far (runs well of course, but then so does everything I've put through my P2000s). And I'm probably going to pick up a G29 SF soon and order some 10 mm for occasional out of state trips through brown bear country.

[Frank R]

Not GJM but I did test some of the .38 Special (not labeled +P) Underwood stuff, their"defender" not "penetrator" Lehigh bullets.

Two hard primers that caused my old D frame to need a second strike, which I found troubling, will not load the Colt with these. Felt recoil was very similar to the +P loading of the 110gr Barnes copper bullets as loaded by Buffalo bore, not mild but tolerable.

Underwood Ammunition 38 Special 100 Grain Lehigh Xtreme Defender

S&W J frame 640 1 7/8” barrel
1196.6 fps Average
27.6 Standard Deviation
80 Extreme Spread
POI =1 3/8” low and 3/4” left at 8 yards


S&W M12-3 2” barrel
1194.6 fps Average
21.8 Standard deviation
68 Extreme Spread
POI=1 3/8” left and elevation correct at 8 yards

Colt D frame Agent 2” barrel
1222.5 fps Average
19.2 Standard Deviation
51 Extreme Spread
POI=1” high and 1 1/2 “ left at 8 yards

Thank you. Any penetration tests?

[fatdog]

Thank you. Any penetration tests?

nope, never tried all that jello and stuff

[Beendare]

20474



Walking around with my tab on in Grizz country....ugh no, thats a bad idea eh?

Then when I hunt with a compound and release in grizz country I am in the habit of swapping the release to the back of my hand. Some hunts I strap my bow to my pack...like when bushwhacking through the alders on Kodiak...so my hands are free. Just as in shooting drills...its the little things- grin

[PNWTO]

Walking around with my tab on in Grizz country....ugh no, thats a bad idea eh?

Then when I hunt with a compound and release in grizz country I am in the habit of swapping the release to the back of my hand. Some hunts I strap my bow to my pack...like when bushwhacking through the alders on Kodiak...so my hands are free. Just as in shooting drills...its the little things- grin

I'm not really in any area where grizzlies are a big concern, thankfully, the Cascades haven't had them in any thing but suspicions for a long time. That is changing up north but not worth my attention, IMO. I can grab my Blackhawk well enough with the tab that I'm still liking bow readiness since I'm not too concerned with black bears and cats. While I haven't practiced with it I imagine I can work a can of spray well enough.

[Beendare]

I'm not really in any area where grizzlies are a big concern, thankfully, the Cascades haven't had them in any thing but suspicions for a long time. That is changing up north but not worth my attention, IMO. I can grab my Blackhawk well enough with the tab that I'm still liking bow readiness since I'm not too concerned with black bears and cats. While I haven't practiced with it I imagine I can work a can of spray well enough.

Gotcha, i just know from experience those BW tabs get hung up on everything....and we both know the best tried and true bear deterrent is to have a bear tag in your pocket- grin

[PNWTO]

Gotcha, i just know from experience those BW tabs get hung up on everything....and we both know the best tried and true bear deterrent is to have a bear tag in your pocket- grin

Dude, you have no idea. I had seen more bears this summer than ever but as soon as the season started the cloaking field fur activated.

[Lester Polfus]

Dude, you have no idea. I had seen more bears this summer than ever but as soon as the season started the cloaking field fur activated.

I've had a bear that spends a good portion of her time on my property. I've been watching her get bigger every year for 4 years, and thought this might be the year to turn her into a rug, but she went and got herself knocked up with twins.

Maybe next year.

[5pins]

I just found two videos of the 10mm Xtreme Penetrators in gel loaded by Underwood. One from The Chopping Block in real gel and the other from Kentucky Ballistics in Clear Gel. They penetrated from 26 to 28 or so inches. Not much deeper then the .45 ACP I shot at 23 inches.


I’m going to buy some bullets from Cutting Edge and see how they do. A person on another board, who claimed to have worked for them, says they were getting the 10mm to penetrate over three 16 inch Clear Gel blocks.




https://youtu.be/ZMiE-MXJLsI?t=3m27s


https://youtu.be/S2LKZy5-y64?t=20s

[5pins]

I finally got around to trying out the Cutting Edge Bullets referenced earlier in the thread in both .45 and 10mm. I shot them in Clear Gel and the penetration was very impressive.


http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/cutting-edge-10mm-and-45-hg-solid-bullets

[Alembic]

So, what pistol would optimize the Underwood Lehigh Penetrator 9mm round, for field use?

Barrel length, durabilty and 1st, reliability. other factors?

HK USP expert, tactical? better than a USP FS or USPc?
G17L or G34L?

others?

[GJM]

So, what pistol would optimize the Underwood Lehigh Penetrator 9mm round, for field use?

Barrel length, durabilty and 1st, reliability. other factors?

HK USP expert, tactical? better than a USP FS or USPc?
G17L or G34L?

others?

This load has run in every pistol I have tried it in, and that is a bunch of different ones, so I would go with whatever you have or like.

[feudist]

This load has run in every pistol I have tried it in, and that is a bunch of different ones, so I would go with whatever you have or like.

Have you ever found a test media that satisfies your desire for testing bear skull penetration?

[GJM]

Have you ever found a test media that satisfies your desire for testing bear skull penetration?

Nope

[5pins]

I shot some Double Tap 200gr and 230gr hardcast in 10mm and 255gr in .45+P over the chronograph this morning. My Delta Elite didn’t like them very much. I kept getting slide locks on a partial mag. I’m going to tryand shoot them in some gel next week.

[GJM]

I shot some Double Tap 200gr and 230gr hardcast in 10mm and 255gr in .45+P over the chronograph this morning. My Delta Elite didn’t like them very much. I kept getting slide locks on a partial mag. I’m going to tryand shoot them in some gel next week.

This is what I like about the USP FS 45 — it has been utterly reliable. That is my first priority, followed by a bullet with a reasonable chance of penetrating a bear skull, with a quantity sufficient to give you multiple tries at it.

[Balisong]

I finally got around to trying out the Cutting Edge Bullets referenced earlier in the thread in both .45 and 10mm. I shot them in Clear Gel and the penetration was very impressive.


http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/cutting-edge-10mm-and-45-hg-solid-bullets

Your test results of the Lehigh Penetrator rounds was the first indication I've seen that maybe they're not all they're cracked up to be. Has anyone else done any testing/analysis of them? I'd been figuring on making those my hiking loads eventually, but now I'm not so sure....

[5pins]

Your test results of the Lehigh Penetrator rounds was the first indication I've seen that maybe they're not all they're cracked up to be. Has anyone else done any testing/analysis of them? I'd been figuring on making those my hiking loads eventually, but now I'm not so sure....

Other than the videos from Kentucky Ballistics and Chopping Block the only other one I have seen is from Tnoutdoors9 were he tried the115gr 9mm from Underwood. In his test, he got a complete pass through shootingtwo 16-inch blocks.
I don’t know any ammo manufacture that load the Cutting Edge bullets. So, unless you reload that will limit your options in solid copper bullets.

[JHC]

I finally got around to trying out the Cutting Edge Bullets referenced earlier in the thread in both .45 and 10mm. I shot them in Clear Gel and the penetration was very impressive.


http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/cutting-edge-10mm-and-45-hg-solid-bullets

Interesting read. I'm not sure what to expect from "light for caliber" bullets and I suspect that is what hurts the .45 ACP loadings. It can't get up enough velocity to make up for it's lesser mass and sectional density whereas 10mm might.

[Clusterfrack]

I’m writing this post from Missoula. I’m here for the USPSA Area 1 Championship. Unfortunately I pulled/tore a calf muscle on the first day and couldn’t continue the match. I’m staying in a cabin outside town and was hobbling on a hike in the woods when I met a big momma and two cubs.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/8d03884dd8b12d76fcac735550795709.jpg
I drew my P07, yelled, and took cover behind some closely spaced trees. Even with 16 rounds of 147HST, I felt pretty undergunned. She postured but when her cubs left she did too.

Is the 115 +p+ the current recommendation for Underwood 9mm?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/688225/underwood-ammunition-9mm-luger-p-115-grain-lehigh-xtreme-penetrator-lead-free-box-of-20

[GJM]

Not sure which is better, but I have tested the +P load in enough different pistols to consider it vetted. Have not shot the +P+ load.

From the forum picture, it looked like a black bear, and if correct, I wouldn’t feel terrible with my regular Gold Dot 124+P. Glad it worked out. How did you get that picture? :p

[Clusterfrack]

Not sure which is better, but I have tested the +P load in enough different pistols to consider it vetted. Have not shot the +P+ load.

From the forum picture, it looked like a black bear, and if correct, I wouldn’t feel terrible with my regular Gold Dot 124+P. Glad it worked out. How did you get that picture? :p

Thanks. I’ll order some +p+ because why not.

Yeah, I felt a little stupid taking out my phone during the standoff but it was such a beautiful bear. Definitely a black bear.

[GJM]

Last summer when the brown bear charged after our dog, and I was mounting my Benelli, I yelled to my wife to grab the camera. She ignored me and drew her HK45C.

[GJM]

Clusterfrack, if you feel like it, it would be interesting to read a detailed description of the whole experience.

Cougar attack in OR:

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/deadly-cougar-attack-north-bend-washington-2018-05-20/

[Duces Tecum]

Yeah, I felt a little stupid taking out my phone during the standoff but it was such a beautiful bear. Definitely a black bear.

But . . . but . . . it wasn't a selfie!

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack, if you feel like it, it would be interesting to read a detailed description of the whole experience.

Cougar attack in OR:

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/deadly-cougar-attack-north-bend-washington-2018-05-20/

Glad to. There isn’t much more. (That cougar attack is disturbing. I’ve seen two cougars up close and didn’t much like it.)

I was in Missoula Montana for the USPSA Area 1 Championship. I shot well the first day, but on my last stage pulled or tore my calf muscle badly enough that I had to sit the rest of the match out.

My buddies and I were staying in an awesome cabin in the hills above town. I had the day to myself, so I went on a short hike (more of a hobble). We had seen some bears in the area already, so I was alert. Within 10 minutes I encountered two large black bear cubs and a big momma in heavy brush and trees. The cubs were at about 25-30 yds and the mother about 20 yards. The cubs stood on their hind legs and the mom postured sideways. I drew my 9mm CZ P-07 (loaded with Fed HST 147gr, my standard defensive load) and sighted on her head. I yelled and backed to some closely spaced trees. I was hoping she couldn’t charge through the trees because my mobility was pretty limited. At that point I risked taking out my phone and snapping some pictures. (Probably stupid). Fortunately the cubs ran, and after they had a lead, mom slowly ambled off.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180521/572745b1737681d4a7b12e0914fdcf07.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180521/df145a94f73563461ec98359b1411c8e.jpg

[DocGKR]

Have you ever found a test media that satisfies your desire for testing bear skull penetration?

Try 0.375" triple laminated transit vehicle windshield glass...

[Doc_Glock]

Clusterfrack, if you feel like it, it would be interesting to read a detailed description of the whole experience.

Cougar attack in OR:

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/deadly-cougar-attack-north-bend-washington-2018-05-20/

This article has more details. Sounds like they stimulated its prey drive by running. Sad situation because if either had been armed I think it could have ended differently.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2018/05/20/cougar-kills-one-man-injures-another-in-rare-attack-outside-seattle/

[feudist]

Try 0.375" triple laminated transit vehicle windshield glass...

Can you elaborate?

[GJM]

In Alaska, the 14 inch Benelli does not seem out of place, like it would out hiking in Montana. Reminds me to bring this.

26491

[RevolverRob]

This article has more details. Sounds like they stimulated its prey drive by running. Sad situation because if either had been armed I think it could have ended differently.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2018/05/20/cougar-kills-one-man-injures-another-in-rare-attack-outside-seattle/

It is unfortunate. Running is a bad idea against an animal that can run you down. And though cougars are fairly thin-skinned and have fairly gracile skulls, I wouldn't want to get into a fight with one if avoidable.

I've been a few places where mountain lions are my concern. I slipped off into a slot canyon one afternoon doing field work, to uhh...see a man about a horse. There I was, comfortably squatted down. When I looked ahead and noticed something I hadn't seen earlier. A series of fairly fresh (<24 hours old) pug marks in the soft sand of the canyon floor going away from me and none coming back...

Man, I'll tell you, a simultaneous laxative and anti-diarrhoeal is seeing fresh big cat tracks when you're in a compromised position. But the one thing my mind told me to do, that my body didn't want to do, was freeze and look. Not get up and run. I figured if homie was in the vicinity, my present position (leaned casually against the canyon wall, with 60-feet of sheer cliff above me on either side) gave me only two directions to look for trouble, and while that was more than I wanted, it was better than running.

The loaded .38 J-Frame I had wasn't confidence inspiring though. I sure wished I had a 9mm or .45 with extra ammo.

[Clusterfrack]

In Alaska, the 14 inch Benelli does not seem out of place, like it would out hiking in Montana. Reminds me to bring this.

26491

I saw some guys with bear-specific guns: big revolvers in Kenai chest rigs, etc. But since I flew here (on a commercial flight) and had a shit ton of USPSA gear, I only brought my standard 9mm CCW.

This thread now makes complete and total sense.

[Doc_Glock]

It is unfortunate. Running is a bad idea against an animal that can run you down. And though cougars are fairly thin-skinned and have fairly gracile skulls, I wouldn't want to get into a fight with one if avoidable.

I've been a few places where mountain lions are my concern. I slipped off into a slot canyon one afternoon doing field work, to uhh...see a man about a horse. There I was, comfortably squatted down. When I looked ahead and noticed something I hadn't seen earlier. A series of fairly fresh (<24 hours old) pug marks in the soft sand of the canyon floor going away from me and none coming back...

Man, I'll tell you, a simultaneous laxative and anti-diarrhoeal is seeing fresh big cat tracks when you're in a compromised position. But the one thing my mind told me to do, that my body didn't want to do, was freeze and look. Not get up and run. I figured if homie was in the vicinity, my present position (leaned casually against the canyon wall, with 60-feet of sheer cliff above me on either side) gave me only two directions to look for trouble, and while that was more than I wanted, it was better than running.

The loaded .38 J-Frame I had wasn't confidence inspiring though. I sure wished I had a 9mm or .45 with extra ammo.

I frequently see leftover deer legs/hooves in the trail while mountain biking. Sometimes the legs weren't there the first time around a loop! I don't expect I could do much if surprised and knocked off my bike by a predatory attack, but, if I had any warning at all like these guys, I would be plenty prepared to meet the animal.

[GJM]

I frequently see leftover deer legs/hooves in the trail while mountain biking. Sometimes the legs weren't there the first time around a loop! I don't expect I could do much if surprised and knocked off my bike by a predatory attack, but, if I had any warning at all like these guys, I would be plenty prepared to meet the animal.

My wife used to mountain bike daily in the mountains of central Colorado, in a cougar dense area. She was carrying a handgun in a fanny pack and I convinced her that would be too slow in the event of a cat attack. Two bikers and two guns changes the odds dramatically.

[RevolverRob]

I frequently see leftover deer legs/hooves in the trail while mountain biking. Sometimes the legs weren't there the first time around a loop! I don't expect I could do much if surprised and knocked off my bike by a predatory attack, but, if I had any warning at all like these guys, I would be plenty prepared to meet the animal.

Look at the bright side.

If they're leftovers on the trail since you made your first loop - nothing is probably hungry enough to try to run you down.

[Doc_Glock]

My wife used to mountain bike daily in the mountains of central Colorado, in a cougar dense area. She was carrying a handgun in a fanny pack and I convinced her that would be too slow in the event of a cat attack. Two bikers and two guns changes the odds dramatically.

I ride solo for the most part.

One has to balance the gun protection needed in an active sport like mountain biking with the ease of access, with the odds. I have settled on a Safepacker and it has proven its worth in several wipe outs where I fell directly on the gun, and one slow draw on an aggressive coyote. And it is slow and that is what it is, it still allows me to follow rule one of a gunfight, bring a gun. A wise man once said that the timing of the draw is more important than the speed.

Question: did she change her carry method after your convincing?

[Lester Polfus]

I find a Hill People Gear kit bag to be an excellent way to carry a handgun while mountain biking.

[GJM]

I ride solo for the most part.

One has to balance the gun protection needed in an active sport like mountain biking with the ease of access, with the odds. I have settled on a Safepacker and it has proven its worth in several wipe outs where I fell directly on the gun, and one slow draw on an aggressive coyote. And it is slow and that is what it is, it still allows me to follow rule one of a gunfight, bring a gun. A wise man once said that the timing of the draw is more important than the speed.

Question: did she change her carry method after your convincing?

She did 86 fanny pack carry.

[Clusterfrack]

When I was riding seriously and training for xc races, I carried a 26 in my hydration pack. I was able to get it out fast enough to draw on two pit bulls that a guy released on me way out in Tweakerville in S Washington. After he saw the gun, he called his dogs.

[cheby]

I’m writing this post from Missoula. I’m here for the USPSA Area 1 Championship. Unfortunately I pulled/tore a calf muscle on the first day and couldn’t continue the match. I’m staying in a cabin outside town and was hobbling on a hike in the woods when I met a big momma and two cubs.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/8d03884dd8b12d76fcac735550795709.jpg
I drew my P07, yelled, and took cover behind some closely spaced trees. Even with 16 rounds of 147HST, I felt pretty undergunned. She postured but when her cubs left she did too.

Is the 115 +p+ the current recommendation for Underwood 9mm?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/688225/underwood-ammunition-9mm-luger-p-115-grain-lehigh-xtreme-penetrator-lead-free-box-of-20

Wow, my Sunday was different! How do you feel today?

[Clusterfrack]

Wow, my Sunday was different! How do you feel today?

Yeah, that was exciting, but I’d rather have been shooting USPSA.

I’m feeling a ton better. Muscle is not torn, I think. I should be able to shoot USPSA Dundee this Sat.

Congrats on your finish yesterday!

[Doc_Glock]

She did 86 fanny pack carry.

How did she carry instead?

[Clusterfrack]

Followup to my bear story. My buddy and I got a ride into town from one of the owner/caretakers of our cabin. She and her sister live in a trailer on site, and seemed to be in their 60's. They moved to Missoula from Idaho a couple of years ago, and don't seem to have much experience. Evidently there are at least 3 families of bears living around there, plus a big aggressive male. The two women are afraid to do any hiking around their property because the bears basically own the area, and visitors keep feeding them.

Interesting.

[JHC]

Followup to my bear story. My buddy and I got a ride into town from one of the owner/caretakers of our cabin. She and her sister live in a trailer on site, and seemed to be in their 60's. They moved to Missoula from Idaho a couple of years ago, and don't seem to have much experience. Evidently there are at least 3 families of bears living around there, plus a big aggressive male. The two women are afraid to do any hiking around their property because the bears basically own the area, and visitors keep feeding them.

Interesting.

Maybe they'd put you up for free to come back in bear season and cull the big male?

[Clusterfrack]

Maybe they'd put you up for free to come back in bear season and cull the big male?

What an excellent idea! I'd have to find someone with hunting experience to go with me.

[GJM]

FIFY


What an excellent idea! I'd have to find a Benelli M2, some Brenneke slugs, and someone with hunting experience and bum knees to go with me.

[cheby]

FIFY

Montana 2018 Black Bear Season Dates: From April 15 through May 31–June 15 (Various). Not too late assuming there are still tags available. The out of state licence is kinda spendy though

[Clusterfrack]

Montana 2018 Black Bear Season Dates: From April 15 through May 31–June 15 (Various). Not too late assuming there are still tags available. The out of state licence is kinda spendy though

Not too late for revenge? ;)

I've got too much going on right now to make that happen. But that place definitely needs some hunting done. Too many bears.

[GJM]

MT attack:

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/content/tncms/live/

[Duelist]

404 link.

[GJM]

https://people.com/human-interest/woman-mauled-by-bear-skull-fracture/

[JHC]

https://people.com/human-interest/woman-mauled-by-bear-skull-fracture/

I guess some would call that a bear spray win?

[JHC]

Not too late for revenge? ;)

I've got too much going on right now to make that happen. But that place definitely needs some hunting done. Too many bears.

There appears to be a Fall season also. There was in the 2017-2018 season.

[GJM]

I guess some would call that a bear spray win?

Of course none of us want to win our bear encounters that way!

[paul105]

The human spirit and resolve to survive never ceases to amaze me. Another incident occurred in the fall of 2016 here in Montana.

https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/wildlife/bear-attacks-man-twice-in-madison-valley-forest-service-closes/article_2595f3af-7e36-59f4-b7da-f2ab122564bf.html

Back to the tread:

Have been working to develop a +P penetrating load for my Kahr CW45 (always gun). Was having some function problems with hard cast heavy weights (250 - 265gr). Loads were accurate, but the little gun would sporatically FTF. I bought some Leigh 200gr Xtreme Penetrators and some Cutting Edge Solids. The Lehigh has a strange looking nose (resembles a phillips head screwdriver). The cutting edge is a WFN that is close t0 .340" IIRC, anyway its a big meplat.

Here are the mfg pictures (they take better pics, and I was too lazy to do it myself)
.
Lehigh: https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/451cal-45-acp-200gr-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168571576

Cutting Edge: https://cuttingedgebullets.com/45-200gr-handgun-solid

Worked up to 1,000 fps from the 3.6" bbl using Ramshot Silhoutte. I used Silhoutte because it has always given me small extreme spreads and it's flash suppressed.

The Cutting Edge bullet takes about .7gr more Silhoutte to get the same velocities as the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator. The cutting edge can't be seated out beyond 1.220" because the WFN meplat will bind in the magazine. These bullets reduce case capacity vs the standard 200gr .45 bullets, so start low and work up if you use them.

At 1,000 fps +- 25 fps, both bullets function with 100 percent reliability in my CW45 so far (50 rnds). Typically FTFs will surface in the first mag with this gun.

What prompted me to make this post was the appearance of these bullets after impacting steel. I shot one round of each (1,000 fps +- impact vel) at a full size popper from about 5 long paces. I shot at the base of the popper and was at an angle so the bullets wouldn't bounce back at me. The spent bullets were extremely hot when picked up (hot potatoed them back to the bench).
.
Anyway, here are a couple of pics.

Top bullet is the Lehigh, bottom bullet (Cutting Edge), impacted the steel at a slightly greater angle.
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_0838.JPG
.
Top bullet THis time is the Cutting Edge (shinny one). I think the grayish appearance of the Leigh is paint transfer or? from the popper.
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_0836.JPG
.

I'm sure this will not occur in soft tissue or on bone.

Anyway, I thought the shape of the spent bullets was interesting.

FWIW,

Paul

[feudist]

The human spirit and resolve to survive never ceases to amaze me. Another incident occurred in the fall of 2016 here in Montana.

https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/wildlife/bear-attacks-man-twice-in-madison-valley-forest-service-closes/article_2595f3af-7e36-59f4-b7da-f2ab122564bf.html

Back to the tread:

Have been working to develop a +P penetrating load for my Kahr CW45 (always gun). Was having some function problems with hard cast heavy weights (250 - 265gr). Loads were accurate, but the little gun would sporatically FTF. I bought some Leigh 200gr Xtreme Penetrators and some Cutting Edge Solids. The Lehigh has a strange looking nose (resembles a phillips head screwdriver). The cutting edge is a WFN that is close t0 .340" IIRC, anyway its a big meplat.

Here are the mfg pictures (they take better pics, and I was too lazy to do it myself)
.
Lehigh: https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/451cal-45-acp-200gr-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168571576

Cutting Edge: https://cuttingedgebullets.com/45-200gr-handgun-solid

Worked up to 1,000 fps from the 3.6" bbl using Ramshot Silhoutte. I used Silhoutte because it has always given me small extreme spreads and it's flash suppressed.

The Cutting Edge bullet takes about .7gr more Silhoutte to get the same velocities as the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator. The cutting edge can't be seated out beyond 1.220" because the WFN meplat will bind in the magazine. These bullets reduce case capacity vs the standard 200gr .45 bullets, so start low and work up if you use them.

At 1,000 fps +- 25 fps, both bullets function with 100 percent reliability in my CW45 so far (50 rnds). Typically FTFs will surface in the first mag with this gun.

What prompted me to make this post was the appearance of these bullets after impacting steel. I shot one round of each (1,000 fps +- impact vel) at a full size popper from about 5 long paces. I shot at the base of the popper and was at an angle so the bullets wouldn't bounce back at me. The spent bullets were extremely hot when picked up (hot potatoed them back to the bench).
.
Anyway, here are a couple of pics.

Top bullet is the Lehigh, bottom bullet (Cutting Edge), impacted the steel at a slightly greater angle.
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_0838.JPG
.
Top bullet THis time is the Cutting Edge (shinny one). I think the grayish appearance of the Leigh is paint transfer or? from the popper.
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_0836.JPG
.

I'm sure this will not occur in soft tissue or on bone.

Anyway, I thought the shape of the spent bullets was interesting.

FWIW,

Paul

Dang. You must have leather coated hands. The recoil must be...crisp?

[paul105]

The CW45 handles recoil amazingly well. Everyone that's shot it comments on how mild felt recoil is.

Ment to mention above that the Underwood 45 ACP +P 200gr Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators chronos right a 1,000 fps from the CW45 (5 long paces from the muzzle and 68 deg F). Also, if it wasn't obvious, retained weight on both bullets was 200 grains.

Paul

[cheby]

Looks like I need to buy more of these bullets:

http://katu.com/news/local/police-shoot-kill-bear-near-gresham-apartment-complex

[Clusterfrack]

WTF? A black bear in Gresham? I guess it makes sense. The Portland metro area is surrounded by lots of habitat. We have had a cougar in our SW Portland neighborhood.

I think I'll have to be satisfied with fighting aggressive wildlife around here with HST 147. I'm not going to carry a spare mag of XP ;-).


Looks like I need to buy more of these bullets:

http://katu.com/news/local/police-shoot-kill-bear-near-gresham-apartment-complex

[flyrodr]

And here in NC, we have the Outer Banks bear:

http://abc11.com/pets-animals/bear-spotted-at-duck-beach/3520581/

[GJM]

Display now at REI Bozeman:

26578

[Lost River]

What an excellent idea! I'd have to find someone with hunting experience to go with me.

DUDE,


I'm your Huckleberry, that's just my game.

Have .44s, will Travel !!


:cool:

[mtnbkr]

And here in NC, we have the Outer Banks bear:

http://abc11.com/pets-animals/bear-spotted-at-duck-beach/3520581/

Don't the NC coastal areas have a good population of largish black bears?

Chris

[flyrodr]

Don't the NC coastal areas have a good population of largish black bears?

There are certainly some big ones. The largest, I believe, was an 880-lb one. Turns out it had gotten fat by raiding a waste bin where a hog farm tossed carcasses of dead hogs before burying them. Other big ones, though, apparently gained their weight legitimately. I think the top twenty bears shot in NC and officially weighed were all over 700 pounds.

Loosely related (a bear story), many years ago my wife and I were playing golf at a western NC course that backed up to some US Forest Service land. She hit a shot off the fairway into the edge of the woods, and in looking for her ball, woke up a smallish black bear (maybe 150 lbs) that had been napping there. Fortunately, it groggily ambled off away from us, as most potent armament at the time was my three iron.

[Bigghoss]

...as most potent armament at the time was my three iron.

You don't keep a gauge in your golf bag?

[flyrodr]

You don't keep a gauge in your golf bag?

I was young and stupid back then. Well, stupid anyway. A condition that has improved little.

[mtnbkr]

There are certainly some big ones. The largest, I believe, was an 880-lb one. Turns out it had gotten fat by raiding a waste bin where a hog farm tossed carcasses of dead hogs before burying them. Other big ones, though, apparently gained their weight legitimately. I think the top twenty bears shot in NC and officially weighed were all over 700 pounds.

In this part of VA, most of the bears are in the sub-400lb range it seems. I haven't seen one in the flesh more than a couple hundred pounds myself.

Chris

[Duelist]

In this part of VA, most of the bears are in the sub-400lb range it seems. I haven't seen one in the flesh more than a couple hundred pounds myself.

Chris

That’s still plenty big!

[Clusterfrack]

Quick test today of 9mm XP handloads.

Gun: CZ P-07
Lehigh XP 115gr
7.0gr Accurate #7
CCI small pistol primers
COL 1.100”
1165 fps (sd 7)

Load was snappy and very accurate (3” group at 30yds).

I’ll be doing a more extensive test to confirm reliability soon.

[Clusterfrack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/2e570c205c29d142ab6e2908d93a3808.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/ca3ee40048b36854d2cf746b951d0f5a.jpg

[s0nspark]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180601/ca3ee40048b36854d2cf746b951d0f5a.jpg

Beautiful! :)

[Clusterfrack]

Range report:
Gun: P-07 mostly stock
50 handloads (see above) shot in various ways: Mag dump w/ <.18 splits, SHO, WHO, super loose grip with two fingers, sideways.

100% function and outstanding accuracy.

1150fps

Also shot a few Underwood +p+ with no issues. 1306fps! Very manageable recoil.

I’ve got my 9mm bear / cougar defense load.

[GJM]

I have tried to make my P07/09 pistols malfunction and have been unable to, regardless of how I have held the pistols.

I might go Gold Dot 124+P over the Lehigh on cougars, but stay with the Lehigh if there are bears and cougars in the same area.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I’m with you guys on the PO7. I have mine set up with the safety, and carry it cocked and locked, with repeat-strike capability.


civiliandefender.com

[1942bull]

Does Black Hills use the same bullet in their Honey Badger rounds?

http://www.brownells.com/ammunition/handgun-ammo/45-acp-135gr-honeybadger-ammo-prod103287.aspx?avs%7cCartridge_1=AXX_45+Auto+(ACP )&avs%7cManufacturer_1=black+hills+ammunition


Yes

[GJM]

Not as pretty as Cluster, but he is part of my stash of field loads:

26752

[paul105]

Here's a picture of the 200gr .45 Cutting Edge Solid copper (spent bullet picture of this and Lehigh a couple of pages earlier on this thread). I loaded these to 1,000 fps (same velocity as Underwood 200gr +P) in my Kahr CW45 (always pocket gun).


https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/Cutting%20Edge%20200gr%20WFN%20IMG_0866.jpg

Paul

[Doge]

So USPc .45 viable and what commercial ammo? Thanks!

[GJM]

So USPc .45 viable and what commercial ammo? Thanks!

What is your question?

[Doge]

What is your question?

I have a lead on a USPc.45 for cheap and am wondering if it is adequate for outdoor use. I'd also like to know what commercially available ammo you recommend.

Thanks

[GJM]

I have a lead on a USPc.45 for cheap and am wondering if it is adequate for outdoor use. I'd also like to know what commercially available ammo you recommend.

Thanks

In my testing, 45 Super ammo functioned in the HK45, HK45C, USP FS but not the USP Compact, so I would not consider the USP Compact adequate for my outdoor use. I did not test Underwood Lehigh .45 +P in it, just the Super loads. If +P is enough for you and you are willing to shoot enough ammo to vet the USP Compact, it might meet your needs.

[03RN]

I have a lead on a USPc.45 for cheap and am wondering if it is adequate for outdoor use. I'd also like to know what commercially available ammo you recommend.

Thanks

Outdoor use in what state or region?

[JHC]

It sure would be convenient for this thread if we find out they used 9mm Lehigh's. :D

http://www.localnews8.com/lifestyle/animals/officials-wyoming-grizzly-killed-in-encounter-with-hikers/749273256

[Doge]

Outdoor use in what state or region?

VA and maybe TX when I go down there to visit the in-laws. I wont do a USPc though...true talk I really wanted another reason to buy it haha.

[03RN]

VA and maybe TX when I go down there to visit the in-laws. I wont do a USPc though...true talk I really wanted another reason to buy it haha.

For lower 48 even a 9mm would be fine. I do carry my .45 1911 on occasion but just cause I like 1911s. But if I'm on a long backpacking trip I carry a g19.

[Joe Mac]

I recently bought a box each of the Underwood +P and +P+ 115gr 9mm to try out. Today's chrono work, 5 shots each load from a G19 and G26:

59 degrees, partial clouds
Shooting Chrony F1 @12' from muzzle

G19:
+P
Hi 1246
Lo 1219
Avg 1234
ES 27
SD 9

+P+
Hi 1376
Lo 1357
Avg 1365
ES 19
SD 6

G26:
+P
Hi 1220
Lo 1195
Avg 1202
ES 25
SD 9

+P+
Hi 1336
Lo 1321
Avg 1331
ES 15
SD 5


I then fired a mag of each through the G26, fairly quickly, into a 4" circle at 10 yards. The +P+ was predictably snappier, but by no means objectionable.

I am impressed -- this stuff is clean, consistent, and easy to deliver hits with at speed. I'm planning to order a larger stash to supplement my usual Gold Dot 124 +P, prior to a late summer west coast road trip which might find me out in the boonies. The only question is... +P or +P+? Given the mission of this load, and its controllability in my hands, I'm not seeing any disadvantage to the +P+. Thoughts?

[GJM]

Do you think another 100 or so fps will cause the bullet to perform better for your intended use? If not, I would go with the +P load since it is likely closer to the middle of the reliability envelope.

[Joe Mac]

Do you think another 100 or so fps will cause the bullet to perform better for your intended use? If not, I would go with the +P load since it is likely closer to the middle of the reliability envelope.

Yeah, that's kind of itching at the back of my brain...I'm not excited about spending the cash on enough +P+ to verify reliability to my satisfaction, for a load that I'm realistically only going to have a use for a couple of times a year. I'm a gun nerd, not an outdoorsman.. :)

[GJM]

Yeah, that's kind of itching at the back of my brain...I'm not excited about spending the cash on enough +P+ to verify reliability to my satisfaction, for a load that I'm realistically only going to have a use for a couple of times a year. I'm a gun nerd, not an outdoorsman.. :)

I have shot enough of that +P load to vet it in many 9mm platforms, so it is a no brainer for my use.

[Talking Monkey]

I'm trying to decide on a woods gun for hiking in the lower 48. Primary concern would be black bears. I have tens of thousands of rounds through various 9mm Glocks that I compete with, but I also own a SIG P229 with both .40S&W and .357SIG barrels that I hardly ever shoot.

I noticed Underwood's Xtreme Penetrator .357SIG load is listed as 1450fps and 537 ft-lbs of muzzle energy compared to 1200fps/400 ft-lbs for the 115gr 9mm +P and 1200fps/448ft-lbs for .40S&W . Seems like the .357SIG has a pretty nice bump up in energy, but I don't recall seeing any mentions of this loading. Is it worth considering or should I just stick with the platform and cartridge I have the most familiarity with?

[GJM]

I'm trying to decide on a woods gun for hiking in the lower 48. Primary concern would be black bears. I have tens of thousands of rounds through various 9mm Glocks that I compete with, but I also own a SIG P229 with both .40S&W and .357SIG barrels that I hardly ever shoot.

I noticed Underwood's Xtreme Penetrator .357SIG load is listed as 1450fps and 537 ft-lbs of muzzle energy compared to 1200fps/400 ft-lbs for the 115gr 9mm +P and 1200fps/448ft-lbs for .40S&W . Seems like the .357SIG has a pretty nice bump up in energy, but I don't recall seeing any mentions of this loading. Is it worth considering or should I just stick with the platform and cartridge I have the most familiarity with?

After a lot of turns and twists to get there, this is how I do my analysis. First, it must be reliable, because one shot of something that prevents a second shot, is not acceptable in a woods situation. Second, I try to figure out what velocity and projectile do I think I need to poke a hole in the brain of whatever animal I am worried about. Third, I consider how well do I shoot the launch pistol, how many rounds does it hold, and how current am I with it.

This month, depending upon where I am, my analysis brings me to either an HK USP/HK45C with Underwood Lehigh Penetrator .45 Super ammo, or a Glock 9mm with Underwood Lehigh Penetrator +P ammo.

[Tom Duffy]

Based on the depth of penetration data from Underwood, although how this corresponds to the surety of penetrating the skull of a bear I'm not sure, seems to be no reason to use anything other than the extreme penetrator in 9mm. 45 ACP and 45 Super and 357 magnum penetrate less. Is there any longer an advantage to using a .45?

[GJM]

Based on the depth of penetration data from Underwood, although how this corresponds to the surety of penetrating the skull of a bear I'm not sure, seems to be no reason to use anything other than the extreme penetrator in 9mm. 45 ACP and 45 Super and 357 magnum penetrate less. Is there any longer an advantage to using a .45?

Good question that I don't know the answer to.

[MickAK]

Based on the depth of penetration data from Underwood, although how this corresponds to the surety of penetrating the skull of a bear I'm not sure, seems to be no reason to use anything other than the extreme penetrator in 9mm. 45 ACP and 45 Super and 357 magnum penetrate less. Is there any longer an advantage to using a .45?

Completely anecdotally and with no studies backing it up (I don't know how you would even do a study or what it would be worth if you did) I've noticed that a warning shot with increased muzzle flash tend to get bears moving faster if they're inclined to get moving from a warning shot. If momma has the cubs up a tree, she's not moving for a rocket launcher so just find another way down the mountain (It sucks). Warning shots always stress the bear, but they don't always seem to connect the noise with the source without a pronounced muzzle flash. So a .45 super would have an edge there, if it already checked off all the boxes mentioned (reliable, you're good with it, can draw it easily in all weather and bloody hands conditions, goes pokey-pokey enough).

[JHC]

Based on the depth of penetration data from Underwood, although how this corresponds to the surety of penetrating the skull of a bear I'm not sure, seems to be no reason to use anything other than the extreme penetrator in 9mm. 45 ACP and 45 Super and 357 magnum penetrate less. Is there any longer an advantage to using a .45?

Nope. Can't prove it though.

[OlongJohnson]

Based on the depth of penetration data from Underwood, although how this corresponds to the surety of penetrating the skull of a bear I'm not sure, seems to be no reason to use anything other than the extreme penetrator in 9mm. 45 ACP and 45 Super and 357 magnum penetrate less. Is there any longer an advantage to using a .45?

I looked on the web site, didn't see any statements. Presuming you're referencing some YouTube gel test videos? Or is there something else in particular?

Skulls aren't gel. In general, a heavier hammer is better at breaking things. 200 gr of the same technology is less likely to find the limits of its capability than 115 gr. This could matter in a non-centered hit, where the skull is encountered at an angle, for example.

Will a .22LR penetrate a human skull? Yes. Have people walked into the ER with an entry wound in their forehead and the drug dealer's .22LR bullet having traveled around the skull under the scalp where it is found at the back of their skull, still on the outside of the skull? Yes.

[Tom Duffy]

Check post 170 for data reference.
I think with a glancing hit on a bear skull a smaller diameter bullet would be more likely to penetrate. 9mm ball penetrates when heavier 45 ball gets deflected. I don’t know if extreme penetrator behaves the same. If I wanted penetration, I’d use 9mm or 357 instead of 45 ACP.

[SilverB]

Penetrating gels vs skulls are two very different things. Yes, 9mm can penetrate further in a gel because it gets less resistance due to smaller frontal surface area than 40 or 45 cal. However, you’d need bigger mass to break the skull before penetration can take place.

[Tom Duffy]

However, you’d need bigger mass to break the skull before penetration can take place.

I don't believe that, at all. My feeling is that the higher velocity and lower cross sectional area is more important to penetrating the skull than mass. Here an example I was able to find on YouTube. 44 mag, 357 didn't penetrate "bulletproof" glass. 454 Casul and 5.7 27 grain did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_teY8vwwXvA

[Cool Breeze]

I was curious if there might be any updates in the last year to this thread. I am wondering what I should be carrying and what 4-legged problems I might have when going hiking. I live in the Pacific Northwest but might do some traveling to Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah as well. My current carry gun is a Glock 17 w/ 147gr. HSTs. Thanks!

[Lester Polfus]

I was curious if there might be any updates in the last year to this thread. I am wondering what I should be carrying and what 4-legged problems I might have when going hiking. I live in the Pacific Northwest but might do some traveling to Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah as well. My current carry gun is a Glock 17 w/ 147gr. HSTs. Thanks!

I live in the PNW and there was a period where the only centerfire handgun I owned was a Glock 19. I carried it with 147 grain Gold Dots and did not feel ill equipped. Double Tap makes a very hard 147 grain FMJ.

[TheNewbie]

I ran into a mountain lion on Monday while hiking in the Guadalupe Mountains. It was dark and my brother and I were the only ones on the trail. In around 9 hours of hiking I saw no other people.


We were coming around a bend and my brother saw movement, and he alerted me. It seems we scared the crap out of the lion (it certainly scared us) because it jumped up onto a cliff in a frenzy and trotted away.


What surprised me if how fast this happened, and how quickly animal encounters unfold. The event also made me rethink the idea that a 5 shot 3 inch .357 LCR would be an ideal woods gun.

[Clusterfrack]

Gnarly. I’ve had my share of mountain lion encounters, and each one wasn’t something I’ll ever forget.

How was the hike back to your vehicle? Looking over your shoulder?

Were you armed? About the LCR: I’d rather have more than 5 shots.

[TheNewbie]

Gnarly. I’ve had my share of mountain lion encounters, and each one wasn’t something I’ll ever forget.

How was the hike back to your vehicle? Looking over your shoulder?

Were you armed? About the LCR: I’d rather have more than 5 shots.


I had my P-07.

The hike back was eerie. Between the darkness, the solitude, and knowing a mountain lion had the high ground, I was ready to be done.

Some of the trails in the Guadalupes are heavily trafficked, but some are unbelievable secluded.


Another lesson I learned was I am uncovinced how fast a Hill People Gear bag is going to be. Maybe I just need to put in tons of practice, but I wouldn't want to test it out for real.

I still advocate the product, but it is not Lucas McCain fast for me.


Did you ever have a lion charge you?

[Clusterfrack]

Charge? Thankfully no. But my latest encounter was pretty sporty. Here’s a link to the Cougar thread, and a description of what happened. I was quite happy to have my own P-07 AIWB where I could get it into action quickly. The HPG bag yields a 1.5-2.5s draw for me. Not super fast... but maybe a good solution if I’m wearing a lot of other gear that encumbers a holster.



Until very recently, I had seen 5 cougars in my life: 1) distant sighting in Marin county CA, 2) hit and killed a young cougar while driving on Hwy 1 near Santa Cruz, 3) 15 yds away while mountain biking at night on Mt. Tam, also in Marin. 4) 10 yds away, brief glimpse while hiking White Rabbit trail, Ashland OR. 5) distant sighting near a trap range in Livermore CA.

A few days ago, that number increased by 3 in a single encounter.

My wife and I were at staying at a ranch on the Utah/Nevada border. We took a hike just adjacent to Great Basin National Park, at around 7pm. Near a stream, in some willows, we encountered 3 cougars 10-15 feet from us.

They were crouched in grass and bushes, and both of us initially thought they were deer lying down. There was one full size lion and two Great Dane sized juveniles. My wife was slightly ahead of me, and the cougars were on our right. I’ll describe the scene using the road as 9:00 ahead and 3:00 behind us.

Cub1 was farthest away, maybe 15-20’. Lioness and Cub2 were facing us, around 10’ away (!). As they jumped up I drew my P07 from AIWB (~0.9-1.0sec draw). Cub1 ran at 11:00 into heavy brush. Lioness did a 180 and ran to 12:00. I followed Cub2 (who was closest to us) with my sights as he did a 3 point bounding turn and ran to 1:00. I’m guessing it was all over in 2 seconds—and thankfully with no shots fired. We hiked out and watched out backs all the way to the vehicle.

A few observations:
It was a perfect sub-second draw—like a Jedi moment with no conscious thought. I’m very glad to have put in the practice time to make a handgun appear quickly when something looked like it needed shooting.

The shoot/no shoot decision happened naturally, and I feel good about not shooting the cougars while they were retreating. I recall preparing to fire but aborting when they didn’t do anything except run away.

I had a good sight picture on the closest one, and even though they were really fast, I was pretty confident of getting hits on Cub2 and the Lioness.

The situation seemed easier than a USPSA activator/target/swinger combo. There seemed like there was plenty of time, which after the fact was very surprising to me.

I didn’t experience tunnel vision. I was able to keep track of two of the cougars but lost sight of the third as it ran into brush toward 11:00.

If they had attacked we could have been in deep trouble. It seems likely that mom cougar was teaching her (huge) cubs to hunt, and for whatever reason decided we weren’t the prey they were looking for. These were impressive predators up close. Who knows if a few 9mm hits would have been enough. I feel like it was a close call, and Mrs CF is still jumpy.

This is the second time in a year that I’ve pointed my gun at multiple large predators. The take home for us is be prepared.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=18787&share_tid=27394&share_pid=742678&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpistol-forum%2Ecom%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D742678&share_type=t

[Doc_Glock]

I had my P-07.

The hike back was eerie. Between the darkness, the solitude, and knowing a mountain lion had the high ground, I was ready to be done.

Some of the trails in the Guadalupes are heavily trafficked, but some are unbelievable secluded.


Another lesson I learned was I am uncovinced how fast a Hill People Gear bag is going to be. Maybe I just need to put in tons of practice, but I wouldn't want to test it out for real.

I still advocate the product, but it is not Lucas McCain fast for me.


Did you ever have a lion charge you?

I am reading a book on Bear Attacks right now. Often the time one has to get a gun in hand and a shot off is extremely short. 3s or less if you have a bear charging inside 40-50 yards. If you surprise a bear at 15 yards and it decides to attack it is on instantly.

I can see why, in brown bear country, a shotgun or rifle in hand is absolutely the right choice. I question whether a Safepacker (or HPG kit bag) is fast enough.

In the much lower risk world of the lower 48, I am going to spend 99.99% of my time carrying a pistol and not deploying at highest speed. I find the flap holsters much better for the application of: have a gun, protect it, conceal it, don’t shoot yourself. They are slower to deploy and I guess if I don’t get >5s warning I guess I am SOL.

I don’t think the .357 LCR is much of a solution to anything honestly, unless it solves the “at least have a gun” problem.

[OlongJohnson]

I was curious if there might be any updates in the last year to this thread. I am wondering what I should be carrying and what 4-legged problems I might have when going hiking. I live in the Pacific Northwest but might do some traveling to Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah as well. My current carry gun is a Glock 17 w/ 147gr. HSTs. Thanks!

18 rounds of 147gr HST is probably a pretty good option for any situation outside the Northern Rockies. With the risk of larger bears in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, I'd probably read this thread and validate the gun with some flavor of Lehigh bullets. I think the thread summary is that you're likely to do just fine with the penetration of a 9mm.

I earlier made the point somewhere that if there's any chance of deflecting off a thick/tough enough bear skull that's hit at just the wrong angle, it's logical that a heavier hammer is more likely to break stuff and be deflected less when it does, which would suggest going to .40 or .45, but it hasn't been discussed much. For my part, the application to bullets and big bear skulls is just a hypothesis; I haven't tested it. (Although I have broken other stuff with big hammers before and find the theory to be well-supported in other cases.)

[Cool Breeze]

Another lesson I learned was I am uncovinced how fast a Hill People Gear bag is going to be. Maybe I just need to put in tons of practice, but I wouldn't want to test it out for real.

I have found a gun mounted that high on my chest is slow. Having to articulate my wrist that much and then having to clear the holster lifting my arm even higher was not optimal for me. I much rather have a kydex like holster velcroed into either 1) a fanny pack at waist level with zipper open or 2) a pouch on my backpack's molle waistband with zipper open. That way I get the speed and concealment I need. If for some reason I need more concealment, I'll just close the zipper.

[Clusterfrack]

It seems we scared the crap out of the lion (it certainly scared us) because it jumped up onto a cliff in a frenzy...

This probably isn’t the most comforting thought, but I think it’s very unlikely that you surprised the cougar. I bet it knew you were coming, but was surprised that you were bigger and/or more numerous than what it was planning to kill.

[TheNewbie]

This probably isn’t the most comforting thought, but I think it’s very unlikely that you surprised the cougar. I bet it knew you were coming, but was surprised that you were bigger and/or more numerous than what it was planning to kill.


Reading that sent a shot of gut acid into my stomach.

[Old Man Winter]

What surprised me if how fast this happened, and how quickly animal encounters unfold.

You can read all the stories and watch the videos but seeing it with your own eyes is a bit of a mind f#@k. It goes to a whole nother level when the critter decides to stick around.

[ST911]

I'd not take cougars for granted, but many get overly concerned about them. Typical 5.56 and 9mm duty loads do well on them. The meat is delicious.

Wolves on the other hand...

[Alpha Sierra]

Wolves on the other hand...

How hard are they to kill? They look just like big dogs...…

Or is it their numbers/pack behavior?

[OlongJohnson]

Or is it their numbers/pack behavior?

The rule I've read is don't shoot one unless you have enough ammo for all of them. Draw blood on one, and the rest will die before they stop trying to kill you.

[Hambo]

The rule I've read is don't shoot one unless you have enough ammo for all of them. Draw blood on one, and the rest will die before they stop trying to kill you.

Where did you read that? Was it research or legend?

[OlongJohnson]

Almost certainly on 24HourCampfire. As I recall, the discussion was about getting treed by a pack. Just wait for them to lose interest, and they'll eventually go away. If you shoot one, the rest will hang out next to their dead friend for days (indefinitely/as long as it takes) waiting for you to climb or fall down. At least that was the consensus. I don't know for sure where the info came from, but of the people over there who spend time out in the woods putting bullets in meat, I don't remember any of them saying it was a bad operating principle.

[JonInWA]

An interesting intermediate/dual-purpose route would be to judiciously choose between your normal qualified (DocGKR vetted) carry load, and then to have a back-up magazine of Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator.

The Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Defender is another interesting alternative; that's my choice in .45 ACP (generally carried in my Gen3 Glock G21).

For 9mm and .40, I'm more likely to have a vetted "normal" carry load and a magazine of Xtreme Penetrator; I'll situationally decide which will be loaded in the gun and which will be my back-up magazine.

For .357 magnum, my current normal carry load is 158 gr Federal Hydra-Shok, and hunting/hunting back-up is Hornaday Custom XTP 158 gr; Hornaday has just introduced a new line of handgun hunting ammunition, but information on it is pretty sketchy, so I'm not sure how it compares to their concurrently offered Custom XTP.

As I live, hunt and hike in the Pacific Northwest, I'm comfortable with these choices for protection against predators in my AOs.

Best, Jon

[Lester Polfus]

The rule I've read is don't shoot one unless you have enough ammo for all of them. Draw blood on one, and the rest will die before they stop trying to kill you.


Where did you read that? Was it research or legend?


Almost certainly on 24HourCampfire. As I recall, the discussion was about getting treed by a pack. Just wait for them to lose interest, and they'll eventually go away. If you shoot one, the rest will hang out next to their dead friend for days (indefinitely/as long as it takes) waiting for you to climb or fall down. At least that was the consensus. I don't know for sure where the info came from, but of the people over there who spend time out in the woods putting bullets in meat, I don't remember any of them saying it was a bad operating principle.

That is consistent with the wolf behavior that I have both researched and observed, but I would also say that our current attitudes towards wolves are great examples of "180 degrees from sick is still sick."

The bunny huggers think they are harmless, and the opposite side is convinced they are all a pack of canine sociopaths that will kill you for fun.

Neither side seems to understand wolf behavior terribly well, nor statistics on wolves attacking humans.

[JonInWA]

An interesting intermediate/dual-purpose route would be to judiciously choose between your normal qualified (DocGKR vetted) carry load, and then to have a back-up magazine of Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator.

The Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Defender is another interesting alternative; that's my choice in .45 ACP (generally carried in my Gen3 Glock G21).

For 9mm and .40, I'm more likely to have a vetted "normal" carry load and a magazine of Xtreme Penetrator; I'll situationally decide which will be loaded in the gun and which will be my back-up magazine.

For .357 magnum, my current normal carry load is 158 gr Federal Hydra-Shok, and hunting/hunting back-up is Hornaday Custom XTP 158 gr; Hornaday has just introduced a new line of handgun hunting ammunition, but information on it is pretty sketchy, so I'm not sure how it compares to their concurrently offered Custom XTP.

As I live, hunt and hike in the Pacific Northwest, I'm comfortable with these choices for protection against predators in my AOs.

Best, Jon

Quick follow-up: I just got off the phone with one of the Hornaday Tech Reps, and asked about the new .357 magnum 130 gr MonoFlex Handgun Hunter compared to the 158 gr Custom XTP; essentially from our conversation it sounds like it's a solid copper bullet option for areas that do not allow lead bullets, and that the 130 gr GMX bullet used (solid copper with an elastomer plug in the hollow point) will provide equivalent terminal performance to the 158 gr Custom XTP, with particularly good through-and-through penetration performance.

Detailed technical/performance information on the Handgun Hunter cartridges Hornaday website is currently sketchy, as their R&D hasn't released their results yet, at least for publication; the rep said they'll likely be out within the next month to month and a half.

Best, Jon

[Lester Polfus]

Quick follow-up: I just got off the phone with one of the Hornaday Tech Reps, and asked about the new .357 magnum 130 gr MonoFlex Handgun Hunter compared to the 158 gr Custom XTP; essentially from our conversation it sounds like it's a solid copper bullet option for areas that do not allow lead bullets, and that the 130 gr GMX bullet used (solid copper with an elastomer plug in the hollow point) will provide equivalent terminal performance to the 158 gr Custom XTP, with particularly good through-and-through penetration performance.

Detailed technical/performance information on the Handgun Hunter cartridges Hornaday website is currently sketchy, as their R&D hasn't released their results yet, at least for publication; the rep said they'll likely be out within the next month to month and a half.

Best, Jon

I appreciate that. I've been watching that development with interest. As we've discussed in other threads, I've been exploring all copper options for all my firearms I might used to hunt.

As an aside, Barnes 140 grain bullet seems to offer great performance. It is loaded by Barnes, Remington and Federal as factory loadings. On Ammoseek, I find that I can often buy the factory "Hog Hammer" ammo for less than what it cost to assemble the loads myself.

I've not had a chance to kill anything with it.

I'm not sure the Hornady offering will give us anything the Barnes doesn't, but more competition in the marketplace is always good.

[JonInWA]

Agreed; all of my experience with these hunting/wilderness cartridges has been with Hornaday and Underwood Lehigh; since I've been satisfied with them, and my overall use/exposure is relative low, I haven't personally felt compelled to explore Barnes or other potential alternatives, at least to date. Your (and needless to say, other p-f members') info shares are great-thanks.

Best, Jon

[Old Man Winter]

How hard are they to kill? They look just like big dogs...…

Or is it their numbers/pack behavior?

Wolves are not mythical beasts unless we're talking about Fenrir, Sköll, and Hati Hróðvitnisson.


The rule I've read is don't shoot one unless you have enough ammo for all of them. Draw blood on one, and the rest will die before they stop trying to kill you.


Almost certainly on 24HourCampfire. As I recall, the discussion was about getting treed by a pack. Just wait for them to lose interest, and they'll eventually go away. If you shoot one, the rest will hang out next to their dead friend for days (indefinitely/as long as it takes) waiting for you to climb or fall down. At least that was the consensus. I don't know for sure where the info came from, but of the people over there who spend time out in the woods putting bullets in meat, I don't remember any of them saying it was a bad operating principle.

I've spent a fair amount of time around wolves in the lower 48, Alaska, and several areas throughout Canada. I've hunted wolves a number of times and encountered them while hunting other animals countless times. Seen a fair number of wolves killed out of packs and not once did the pack stick around or circle back to take on the hunters standing next to their dead pack members.

Speaking of being tree'd, I was bow hunting whitetails out of tree stand when five wolves came through. They knew exactly where I was and spent a little too much time checking me out. Killed one and the others wasted no time running off.

As with any wild animal encounter your milage may vary.

[Alpha Sierra]

Wolves are not mythical beasts unless we're talking about Fenrir, Sköll, and Hati Hróðvitnisson.

I've spent a fair amount of time around wolves in the lower 48, Alaska, and several areas throughout Canada. I've hunted wolves a number of times and encountered them while hunting other animals countless times. Seen a fair number of wolves killed out of packs and not once did the pack stick around or circle back to take on the hunters standing next to their dead pack members.

Speaking of being tree'd, I was bow hunting whitetails out of tree stand when five wolves came through. They knew exactly where I was and spent a little too much time checking me out. Killed one and the others wasted no time running off.

As with any wild animal encounter your milage may vary.

From my admittedly ignorant POV, wolves look no harder to kill than a German Shepherd, Husky, or any other semi large dog. Meaning not hard to kill at all.

Which is why I asked when someone said "wolves are another matter" or something like that.

[GJM]

From my admittedly ignorant POV, wolves look no harder to kill than a German Shepherd, Husky, or any other semi large dog. Meaning not hard to kill at all.

Which is why I asked when someone said "wolves are another matter" or something like that.

If you have ever been near a wild wolf, and reflected on their size and athleticism, you would understand why wolves would think “humans don’t look hard to kill at all.” A single pack of wolves can move a large herd of caribou many miles.

[Alpha Sierra]

If you have ever been near a wild wolf, and reflected on their size and athleticism, you would understand why wolves would think “humans don’t look hard to kill at all.”

I'm sure a wolf would think so. Right up to the second the bullet rips him apart inside.

[Grey]

From my admittedly ignorant POV, wolves look no harder to kill than a German Shepherd, Husky, or any other semi large dog. Meaning not hard to kill at all.

Which is why I asked when someone said "wolves are another matter" or something like that.If your husky or GS is pushing 150lbs then that is probably a decent comparison. Ive have had or been around huskys and GS and they arent as big as the wolves I have seen on average. Wolves are BIG.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[El Cid]

I'm sure a wolf would think so. Right up to the second the bullet rips him apart inside.

Seriously? What’s your experience with them? I put stock in what GJM says because I know he’s in the environment where wolf encounters are common. Remember animals don’t stop just because they realize they’ve been shot. And this thread is about handguns which are notoriously ineffective at dropping large aggressive predators (2 legged or 4). I think you may be overestimating your handgun.

[Lost River]

Seriously? What’s your experience with them? I put stock in what GJM says because I know he’s in the environment where wolf encounters are common. Remember animals don’t stop just because they realize they’ve been shot. And this thread is about handguns which are notoriously ineffective at dropping large aggressive predators (2 legged or 4). I think you may be overestimating your handgun.

Not to mention that they are pack animals and they attack in numbers.

Theory vs reality..

[Lester Polfus]

If you have ever been near a wild wolf, and reflected on their size and athleticism, you would understand why wolves would think “humans don’t look hard to kill at all.” A single pack of wolves can move a large herd of caribou many miles.


If your husky or GS is pushing 150lbs then that is probably a decent comparison. Ive have had or been around huskys and GS and they arent as big as the wolves I have seen on average. Wolves are BIG.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Not to mention that they are pack animals and they attack in numbers.

Theory vs reality..

People read that there is a rough equivalency in weight between gray wolves and things like German Shepherd Dogs, which sets up a false equivalency in size.

Yes. Wolves are BIG. The first time I saw a wolf track in good substrate, it was a total WTF moment as my brain tried to adjust to what I was seeing. The first time I saw a live wolf, my brain also had to do a recalibration.

The best analogy I could give is this: I'm 6'2". I once met a professional basketball player who was over seven feet tall. We both weighed about 240lbs, but there was no comparison in size.

When I was younger and dumber I thought I could stay on my feet when a medium sized GSD hit the bite sleeve. I can't imagine dealing with a wolf up close, let alone one going for each arm while another pair zip in for my hamstrings.

[Hambo]

A single pack of wolves can move a large herd of caribou many miles.

Because herd animals will always move away from predators, wolves can move them just by trailing the herd. I remember one researcher observed wolves running a herd in relays so the wolves didn't tire themselves out. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with a solo human.

[Grey]

100% Lester Id tangle with a 150lb GSD before I ever wanted to mess with a wolf.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Tod-13]

Yes. Wolves are BIG. The first time I saw a wolf track in good substrate, it was a total WTF moment as my brain tried to adjust to what I was seeing. The first time I saw a live wolf, my brain also had to do a recalibration.


On our East Texas deer lease, when I saw Mexican Red Wolves there, a single wolf took up 2/3 to 3/4 of a timber truck road. It was huge--and we own a Newfoundland Dog, so I'm not easily impressed by dog size.

ETA: I also spent college hanging out with a guy with a half Husky half wolf. She was 200 lbs and all lap dog. She played like a wolf, really mouthy--first time in his store, he was on the phone and didn't see when his dog came back to check me out. We introduced ourselves and she started playing. He turns around and sees me with my arm in his dog's mouth up to the elbow. I know she was playing, but he didn't know that, and freaked out. So I'm used to big dogs, but those wolves were still huge.

[Old Man Winter]

Unarmed against a wolf or pack of wolves, you're gonna have a bad day. Armed, the odds are in your favor even if you don't have enough ammo to kill'em all. In North America your chances of being attacked by a wolf or wolves in wolf country are extremely low. You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than getting attacked by wolves.

The link below is a list of wolf attacks in North America. Very few people have been killed by wolves on this continent and the number of reported non-fatal attacks is pretty minimal as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America

Here's the bottom line. Wolves are a thin skinned, lightly muscled critter. Any pistol you carry to stop two-legged critters is going to be effective at stopping a wolf.

[GJM]

There is a reason there are very few “wolf gun” internet threads. Almost always, areas that have wild wolves also have grizzly bears. Your wolf gun is also likely your bear gun.

[Bucky]

The link below is a list of wolf attacks in North America. Very few people have been killed by wolves on this continent and the number of reported non-fatal attacks is pretty minimal as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America


Yes, but how many people have been bitten and turned into werewolves??

[Old Man Winter]

Yes, but how many people have been bitten and turned into werewolves??

I'd have to say most of eastern Canada.

[entropy]

Yea...but will a wolf do this?

46170

[Lost River]

The very vast majority of people have ZERO concept of how big these dang things are..


https://i.imgur.com/39wVmfY.jpg


My dad was about 220#s when he took this one.

It made him look small.

He could hardly lift it for the pic.

[Lost River]

Here is a 124 grain Gold Dot against a Canadian Wolf tooth for a size comparison.


https://i.imgur.com/HZpQdm1.jpg

[entropy]

It’s not just out West. This photo was taken 100mi SW of Chicago by a friend who works for the DNR. Animal had been spotted several times over a period of weeks in the undeveloped areas that flank the Illinois River northeast of Peoria. It <Coach Ditka accent on> “Became deceased under mysterious circumstances.” <Coach Ditka accent off> but DNA tests confirmed it was from one of the packs that roam upper WI and MI.





46191

[Poconnor]

There are good reasons wolves were hunted out of existence in the lower 48. They are much larger than dogs and a pack requires a large range. They eat and need a lot of game animals and in the winter I think they would eat anything they can from cattle, horses and people.

[03RN]

Here is a 124 grain Gold Dot against a Canadian Wolf tooth for a size comparison.


https://i.imgur.com/HZpQdm1.jpg

Ill try to remember to take a pic of a 60lbs coyote canine tomorrow

[03RN]

Unarmed against a wolf or pack of wolves, you're gonna have a bad day. Armed, the odds are in your favor even if you don't have enough ammo to kill'em all. In North America your chances of being attacked by a wolf or wolves in wolf country are extremely low. You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than getting attacked by wolves.

The link below is a list of wolf attacks in North America. Very few people have been killed by wolves on this continent and the number of reported non-fatal attacks is pretty minimal as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America

Here's the bottom line. Wolves are a thin skinned, lightly muscled critter. Any pistol you carry to stop two-legged critters is going to be effective at stopping a wolf.

But wolves going after my hound dog would require the full amount of hate and discontent i could muster.

He's been gone 3 years. My wifes pom id be ok with them taking a snack.

Id also be willing to bet most wolf attacks turn into 411 reports or bear attacks because wolfs never attack people.

[OlongJohnson]

But wolves going after my hound dog would require an AR with a couple 30-round mags.

FIFY

[ECVMatt]

For some reason this story has always haunted me:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-mar-13-la-na-wolf-attack13-2010mar13-story.html

I guess because it could have been adverted by a being armed, because I have a daughter and can only imagine her horror at the end, or because I am mystified by peoples desire to reintroduce wolves to the lower 48.

I have seen wolves in AK and they are large and swift. Watching them move through the river deadfalls where I was hunting was eerie. They were fast and relatively silent. I pretty much made the decision that if wolves came near me I would go on the offensive rather than try to retreat.

I like have a Ruger Toklat that I like to carry, but if I was in an area that had a heavy wolf population I would probably go with my Glock 20 and the Lehigh rounds.

[10mmfanboy]

I saw a red wolf on my property twice, it was definitely slightly bigger than the coyotes here. I know because it came flying out of the woods just ahead of me and turned and ran straight towards me. It got probably 12 foot from me and his head was about in line with my waist. Luckily my pit bull was right behind me and took off after it because I didn't even have time to draw my pistol and I had it aiwb but my shirt tucked in behind it.

Yesterday I had an encounter with a coyote I had seen the week before. Only this time it ran around the big pond headed down the trail I was on and started lowering its head and showing teeth. This time I had time to draw at least but my American bulldog took off after it. I am worried it may have beginning stages of rabies or something. I think I found it's den near there. I have to take time out deer hunting to take care of him and I am not pleased about that.

I am perfectly comfortable carrying 9mm as a woods gun around here anymore. Black bear, mt. lion, bobcat, coyote, hogs. I killed a boar that charged me on my back porch when I was putting my boots on one morning with a g19 with speer GD 124+p and boar are pretty tough animals and are shaped like torpedoes coming at you. I fear the venomous snakes around here the most, I had way too many close calls with rattlesnakes this year.

[JHC]

For some reason this story has always haunted me:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-mar-13-la-na-wolf-attack13-2010mar13-story.html

I guess because it could have been adverted by a being armed, because I have a daughter and can only imagine her horror at the end, or because I am mystified by peoples desire to reintroduce wolves to the lower 48.

I have seen wolves in AK and they are large and swift. Watching them move through the river deadfalls where I was hunting was eerie. They were fast and relatively silent. I pretty much made the decision that if wolves came near me I would go on the offensive rather than try to retreat.

I like have a Ruger Toklat that I like to carry, but if I was in an area that had a heavy wolf population I would probably go with my Glock 20 and the Lehigh rounds.

There was a similar case in Canada involving a young lady taking a late afternoon hike around a frozen lake. Investigation indicated the pack parallelled her from the shore a considerable distance and based on tracks of the deceased she knew she was being stalked and changed course in a futile evasion attemt. IIRC eventually breaking into a run when the wolves came across the lake for her. Very sad.

[ECVMatt]

I also found this article very interesting. Maybe it is more important to use what we shoot the best rather than get caught up in minutia.....

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/#axzz5wtQI8UPC

[10mmfanboy]

I think the best attribute to look for in a woods gun is something you can shoot fast and keep tracking your sights fast. And remember to lead the animal even if it is running straight towards you. Barrel length matters too, as well as sight radius.

[GJM]

Since I will be mostly in Alaska and Montana for a while, I got my Underwood Lehigh ammo out. First, I checked zero on the Underwood 115+P at 20 yards, in an X Compact upper with a Romeo 1 Pro that I recently got. I saw my first and second shot, but then it looked like I was missing a few holes. This is the target -- guess this Sig likes this load. Hits a bit right of the 147 HST it is zeroed for.

72994

Here it is.

72995

Then I shot the same load at 20 yards in a 365XL that was zeroed for 115 Gold Dot.

72996

[Phaedrus]

For some reason this story has always haunted me:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-mar-13-la-na-wolf-attack13-2010mar13-story.html

I guess because it could have been adverted by a being armed, because I have a daughter and can only imagine her horror at the end, or because I am mystified by peoples desire to reintroduce wolves to the lower 48.




This is a fraught subject to be sure. I moved to Montana from Idaho a few years ago, and both there and here wolves are a topic of heated debate. The introduction of non-native Canadian wolves to Idaho decimated the ungulate population, of that there's no doubt. But native wolves were once, are now, and in the future will be important parts of the ecosystem. I grew up in a small town that was basically farmers and ranchers; both of those groups seemed to feel wild animals were merely a nuisance, "freeloaders" that cut into their profits. Me, I'm a conservationist but not really an "Earth Muffin" or treehugger. Yet I don't subscribe to the view that humans own the Earth lock, stock and barrel. Quite the opposite, she owns us! We're part of this world, not the only important species.

There are times when I tired of needing to store my food in a bear canister and it would be nice to be able to eat dinner in camp without fear of a Grizzly pulling me out of my sleeping bag that night. But the Grizzly also belongs here. He was here before me and will here after I'm gone. Same for wolves. I don't know how much overlap this forum has between shooters and woodsmen/women; probably there's is a good amount of folks into both.

Personally, I don't think I could go through the motions of wearing human clothes, doing my taxes and going to work without The Wild. It's part of us, as big a part of us that one that builds suburbs and puts bumper stickers on our SUVs. Most "civilized" humans have totally forgotten that we're animals. But The Wild will disabuse one of that notion very quickly. I can't live in a world without The Wild, nor would I want to.

[GJM]

A difference between Alaska and Idaho/Wyoming/Montana is how grizzly bears interact with humans. In Alaska, where the bears have been hunted for years, the bears most often give humans a wide berth. In the lower 48, where the bears have not been hunted for years, they seem less concerned by humans.

[Phaedrus]

Very true! I think we should allow some- some!- Grizzly permits here in MT. We really have LOT of them here. Limited hunting is still enough to let bears realize we're an apex predator and to be avoided. A big issue here is that some bears associate the sound of a gun shot with dinner. It can be dangerous to skin out and quarter an elk here especially if you're alone. We have a lot of wolves but I don't give them a thought. They're very wary of humans. The incredibly rare wolf attack is usually a jogger or mountain biker; if you run it triggers their prey drive and I think bikes confuse them. If a wolf does attack I watched Liam Neeson in The Grey so I know how to handle them!;)

[Lost River]

Wolves sometimes are not all that wary of people.

Here is a link to a short film clip called "Lost River". Yes, thats where my internet handle comes from. No I have nothing to do with the film. The reason for linking the clip is that the two brothers in the film are Kevin and Kieran Donahue. Twin brothers, cowboys who grew up ranching in the area. Kieran is actually the Sheriff of Canyon County just outside of Boise now. I have actually never met Kieran, and only know Kevin.

But anyways, his brother Kevin runs cows on my place sometimes and loses cattle to wolves. As it happens he was running cows through my place one time and stopped to chat and was showing the scars on his saddle. He actually had scars on his saddle where a wolf tried to take him out of his saddle while he was in it. He was showing me, my dad and daughter. He said it was literally the only time in over ten years he was riding without a gun and he had a few surround his horse and one came in and tried that. It sounded like it was a pretty exciting event while on the back of a horse!

Had I not seen it personally I would not have believed that one, but I was looking at the proof.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnWBxctBSWw

My closest cabin neighbor does predator control for the next ranch down and I know that a few years back they lost three 500 pound steers to wolves. those were brought down maybe a 1/2 mile from my place.

All the more reason to always have a gun. I have spent a BUNCH of time in MT lately and was just speaking with someone via PM and the things people do, I swear they are baiting the bears and ASKING to get their asses chomped on. I was just in mountains outside Livingston and the crap people do is stunning. Fortunately most of them are shaped like pears, so that is good. My only hope is that when the Grizzlies come to the smell of sushi (or whatever horrible stuff it was the ladies were eating) they skip the old grouchy guy and go straight for the penguin shaped tourists.

[Phaedrus]

I'd wager the wolf was attacking the horse and was scarcely aware of the rider. Grab your rifle and try to walk up on a wolf and shoot it. I'll wait!;) When they need to cull 'em they mostly shoot 'em from aircraft. It's difficult to get close to a wolf in 99.8% of circumstances. Yeah, I'm aware people successfully hunt them but it's a challenge, at least around here.

[HCM]

For some reason this story has always haunted me:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-mar-13-la-na-wolf-attack13-2010mar13-story.html

I guess because it could have been adverted by a being armed, because I have a daughter and can only imagine her horror at the end, or because I am mystified by peoples desire to reintroduce wolves to the lower 48.



No, it's quite unlikely this particular incident could have been averted if the victim was armed. If the story is accurate and she was jogging with her ipod ear buds in, she likely never knew what was happening till they were on her. If she had survived she would swear they "just came out of no where."

I've read the same story many times in sexual assault reports only the wolves looked like people. Awareness, avoidance and deterrence aren't just for the city. Predation is predation.

Check out some of the material from Craig Douglas, Tom Givens and the late Dr. William Aprill on awareness, criminal targeting and unequal initiative encounters.

Either someone failed to school her on the dangers of real wilderness or she failed to heed the lesson.

[Lost River]

I'd wager the wolf was attacking the horse and was scarcely aware of the rider. Grab your rifle and try to walk up on a wolf and shoot it. I'll wait!;) When they need to cull 'em they mostly shoot 'em from aircraft. It's difficult to get close to a wolf in 99.8% of circumstances. Yeah, I'm aware people successfully hunt them but it's a challenge, at least around here.

I will let Kevin know that the wolf trying to pull him out of his saddle really did not know he was there and was actually scared of him..

Perhaps I should also let my elderly father know (who also lives in central Idaho in an area that has a very high density of wolves) that the one he shot with his .45 ACP Glock was actually scared of him too..

As far as this goes " Grab your rifle and try to walk up on a wolf and shoot it. I'll wait!;) "

I don't think me or my family needs to try real hard in that department either.

:rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/gepbSHt.jpg

[Phaedrus]

I will let Kevin know that the wolf trying to pull him out of his saddle really did not know he was there and was actually scared of him..
https://i.imgur.com/gepbSHt.jpg

I don't know if I need type slower or use smaller words.;) I never said the wolf of afraid of him! Does he ride around with a pork chop in his pocket? I'm glad he was unharmed, that's awesome. The fact remains that bees kill many times more humans each year than wolves. They're not saints or benevolent spirits but I'm sure you know that for every human a wolf kills 20 are killed by domestic cows. There's a potential for many animals to hurt or kill a human; respect them but don't live in fear.

[JHC]

Since I will be mostly in Alaska and Montana for a while, I got my Underwood Lehigh ammo out. First, I checked zero on the Underwood 115+P at 20 yards, in an X Compact upper with a Romeo 1 Pro that I recently got. I saw my first and second shot, but then it looked like I was missing a few holes. This is the target -- guess this Sig likes this load. Hits a bit right of the 147 HST it is zeroed for.

72994

Here it is.

72995

Then I shot the same load at 20 yards in a 365XL that was zeroed for 115 Gold Dot.

72996

OK the burning question for me goes like this.

So your load out for AK this year when out hiking/hunting will be a long gun (shotgun or rifle) and the sidearm will be a 9mm?
I've been dreaming of this day. ;)

[Lost River]

I don't know if I need type slower or use smaller words.;) I never said the wolf of afraid of him! Does he ride around with a pork chop in his pocket? I'm glad he was unharmed, that's awesome. The fact remains that bees kill many times more humans each year than wolves. They're not saints or benevolent spirits but I'm sure you know that for every human a wolf kills 20 are killed by domestic cows. There's a potential for many animals to hurt or kill a human; respect them but don't live in fear.

Oh by all means use smaller words there " Phaedrus"..

Anyone who labels themselves as such, is far too intelligent for a decidedly non-cosmopolitan, poorly travelled hick of little book-lernin. I simply wanted to point out where the reality of actual experience on the subject matter proves different than armchair theory.



You just keep thinking there Butch, that's what your good at..

[Duces Tecum]

There are times when I tired of needing to store my food in a bear canister and it would be nice to be able to eat dinner in camp without fear of a Grizzly pulling me out of my sleeping bag that night. But the Grizzly also belongs here. He was here before me and will here after I'm gone. Same for wolves.

Very true, all that and more, if one assumes a species-perspective. But that individual animal has the ability and apparent intent to do mischief to me or mine right now, and that makes him meat.

The world is a more pleasing place when all roads are two-way.

[OlongJohnson]

Very true, all that and more, if one assumes a species-perspective.

I'm sure RevolverRob could fill in the details, but my understanding is that homo sapiens ran the giant short-faced bear out of the Americas somewhere around 10k years ago. This stuff has been going on for awhile.

[Doc_Glock]

A difference between Alaska and Idaho/Wyoming/Montana is how grizzly bears interact with humans. In Alaska, where the bears have been hunted for years, the bears most often give humans a wide berth. In the lower 48, where the bears have not been hunted for years, they seem less concerned by humans.

The European Brown Bear is similar genetically to the Grizzly, but behaviorally they are reticent likely due to selective destructive of aggressive individuals over the course of human history. RevolverRob may be able to comment better.