Advanced DA/SA Technique for striker-fired shooters

[Clusterfrack]

I am hoping this thread will help me and other shooters who have more experience with striker-fired guns get the most out of their DA/SA guns.

Here's my story: I'm hoping for advice and links to resources about learning to shoot a double-action gun (e.g. CZ) at the highest level. Because the Sig p320 can fire if dropped, I have recently switched to a CZ Shadow 2 for USPSA competition, and have only a month to learn how to shoot this gun before I go up against other M class shooters at Production Nationals.

One good article to start this off with is Ernest Langdon's Fear Not the Double-Action Shot (http://www.craigcentral.com/fearnot.htm).

[spinmove_]

Paging Dagga Boy and LangdonTactical


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[GJM]

At your level, I would disregard about everything that has been written for new shooters learning DA/SA, and just press the trigger (DA and SA) without disturbing the sights off the target you are shooting at. It really is that simple.

For gaming, focus on the SA in your practice, because that is how the vast majority of shots are fired. Too many people spend a disportionate amount of practice on DA.

The big gotcha for the Shadow is figure out how to safely lower the hammer at make ready, so you don't make a loud noise and have to go home early. I would dry fire practice that until it is automatic, and remember the hammer has to go all the way down, and not stop at half cock or you will be bumped to Open.

[Dr. No]

Pull the trigger just like single action... As quickly as you can move the trigger straight to the rear and hold the sights on target..

Don't think about it too much.

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[Clusterfrack]

At your level, I would disregard about everything that has been written for new shooters learning DA/SA, and just press the trigger (DA and SA) without disturbing the sights off the target you are shooting at. It really is that simple.

For gaming, focus on the SA in your practice, because that is how the vast majority of shots are fired. Too many people spend a disportionate amount of practice on DA.

The big gotcha for the Shadow is figure out how to safely lower the hammer at make ready, so you don't make a loud noise and have to go home early. I would dry fire practice that until it is automatic, and remember the hammer has to go all the way down, and not stop at half cock or you will be bumped to Open.

Thanks George. Great advice. One thing I've been working on is the DA pull from the draw. (Just like with a striker fired gun) unless the target is very difficult, I am trying to commit to the shot during the final stage of the presentation, as I refine the alignment of the sights. The timing of this is tough with the long DA pull! I think--as Dr. No suggests--I need to pull the trigger faster than I would typically pull a striker-fired trigger.

[GJM]

Two things:

On the DA trigger from the draw, the two schools of thought seem to be present/pause or do a more conventional press out, working the trigger all the way out. Something Ernest taught me, was a hybrid, where you present, but do a mini-compressed press out the very last bit of the presentation, which seems to be faster and give more of a surprise break. I do this with DA/SA, LEM and striker. Turns out my wife and Gabe came to the same process on their own.

The biggest thing I notice going between the Shadow and polymer is not the trigger -- it is the weight difference of the whole pistol. I transition faster with the lighter pistol, but split faster with the heavy gun. Enough of a difference, you can easily hear it.

[RJ]

Following.

[45dotACP]

Also following. I love my Berettas, but swapping to them from Glock had been a bit tricky.

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[David S.]

Paging Dagga Boy and LangdonTactical

and Wayne Dobbs and OPSPEC

[David S.]

At your level, I would disregard about everything that has been written for new shooters learning DA/SA, and just press the trigger (DA and SA) without disturbing the sights off the target you are shooting at. It really is that simple.


Pull the trigger just like single action... As quickly as you can move the trigger straight to the rear and hold the sights on target..

FWIW, I'm nowhere in the same league as you or either of these guys, but agree.

[MistWolf]

...remember the hammer has to go all the way down, and not stop at half cock or you will be bumped to Open.

That's bizarre

[LangdonTactical]

Yeah, George is spot on here. Read what he posted closely and execute.

At the end of the day, if you hold the sights on the target and don't move them when you press the trigger, you are good to go. The dirty little secret, that works with any kind of gun.

And finally, when it comes to the Nationals I will give you two main thoughts.

One, Be Brutally Accurate!
Two, Don't Shoot Scared!

[MSparks909]

You definitely picked a hell of a gun! The Shadow 2 is an animal for Production...seriously. Love mine. Swap in a 13# hammer spring and a 11.5# recoil spring. That'll give you a DA of under 8 pounds...with no polishing or anything else. Full reliability. The 11.5# will aid in sight tracking even though that beast of a gun doesn't need too much help.

Stroke through the DA press in one continuous motion. I typically start pressing the shot about halfway through my draw stroke when I'm pressing the gun out towards the target. YMMV.

Also paging Les Pepperoni for any more advice he can give. Work your reloads and manipulation as the control locations are different than your 320. I don't think you'll have much issue adapting though.

[Clusterfrack]

You definitely picked a hell of a gun! The Shadow 2 is an animal for Production...seriously. Love mine. Swap in a 13# hammer spring and a 11.5# recoil spring. That'll give you a DA of under 8 pounds...with no polishing or anything else. Full reliability. The 11.5# will aid in sight tracking even though that beast of a gun doesn't need too much help.

Stroke through the DA press in one continuous motion. I typically start pressing the shot about halfway through my draw stroke when I'm pressing the gun out towards the target. YMMV.

Also paging Les Pepperoni for any more advice he can give. Work your reloads and manipulation as the control locations are different than your 320. I don't think you'll have much issue adapting though.

Thanks. Cheby helped me out with the mods similar to what you suggested:
11.5# Hammer spring (https://cajungunworks.com/product/hs-12000-black-11-5-hammer-spring/)
11# Recoil spring (https://cajungunworks.com/product/11rs-recoil-spring/)
Reduced power firing pin spring (https://cajungunworks.com/product/rp-fps-reduced-power-firing-pin-spring/)
Extended firing pin (https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/fire-control/cz-85c-ts-shadow-extended-firing-pin.html)

I'll also be adding a reduced power trigger return spring (https://cajungunworks.com/product/rp-trs-reduced-power-trigger-return-spring/) and floating trigger pin (https://cajungunworks.com/product/tr-pin-cgws-exclusive-floating-trigger-pin/).

I'm trying these Copper Gun Lava grips (http://shop.coppergungrips.com/CZ-75-85-SP-01-Grips-Lava-Rock-Texture-CZ75L.htm) as well, because I have gotten used to the totally awesome Alma Cole grip on my 320.

You're absolutely right about the controls. My 320 with a small grip allowed me to reload, and if needed, hit the slide release without altering my grip. The Shadow 2 fits my hand well with slim grips--although the reach for double action is a stretch. However, I have to "flip" the gun a bit to reach the mag and slide releases. I believe Ben Stoeger also "flips" his grip on reloads, so I figure it's not a deal breaker.

I experimented with starting the trigger press earlier in the presentation (with gun aimed downrange of course). So far, I do not like it. I had a feeling of tension in my strong hand from trying to slow the trigger pull, and then ended up yanking a bunch of shots when I speeded up to complete the trigger pull. I'm not sure I can explain it better than this.

It's likely that the "slower, earlier press" you describe is so foreign to me that I can't do it well.

So far, my best results have come from gripping the F out of the gun with my left hand and pressing the trigger rapidly as I clean up my sight picture near the end of the draw, as with a striker gun.

[MSparks909]

Even though I've been shooting TDA guns pretty exclusively for the last year and a half...I still have a tendency to start the press way late in the presentation as I'm cleaning up my sight picture. It's a little slower than having the gun go "boom" as soon as it hits extension, but that technique is only good if the bullet goes where you want it!

I wouldn't fret too much about the first DA shot. Do a bunch of DA/SA transitions from the holster. Hidden side benefit of that is it will also help you get comfortable lowering the hammer from SA to DA. I usually pinch the hammer with my support hand thumb and index finger and slowly lower it down, but I've seen lots of people do the "thumb roll" at matches too.

This is me shooting my Shadow 2 at a local match a few months back. Notice the slight pause as the gun hits extension before I fire. I'm aware of it and while I theoretically should start my DA press earlier, it is what it is. I'll live with it.


https://youtu.be/ySJK7mha1xY

[Bummy425]

At your level, I would disregard about everything that has been written for new shooters learning DA/SA, and just press the trigger (DA and SA) without disturbing the sights off the target you are shooting at. It really is that simple.

For gaming, focus on the SA in your practice, because that is how the vast majority of shots are fired. Too many people spend a disportionate amount of practice on DA.

The big gotcha for the Shadow is figure out how to safely lower the hammer at make ready, so you don't make a loud noise and have to go home early. I would dry fire practice that until it is automatic, and remember the hammer has to go all the way down, and not stop at half cock or you will be bumped to Open.Or dq if you holster it like that!

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[Leroy]

Biggest issue I had was breaking the first SA shot to early during the gun coming down after the first DA. It goes awayy pretty quick. Work SHO and WHO. That is all, shoot the shit out of it, 1 month to transition is going to a challenge.

[Bummy425]

Even though I've been shooting TDA guns pretty exclusively for the last year and a half...I still have a tendency to start the press way late in the presentation as I'm cleaning up my sight picture. It's a little slower than having the gun go "boom" as soon as it hits extension, but that technique is only good if the bullet goes where you want it!

I wouldn't fret too much about the first DA shot. Do a bunch of DA/SA transitions from the holster. Hidden side benefit of that is it will also help you get comfortable lowering the hammer from SA to DA. I usually pinch the hammer with my support hand thumb and index finger and slowly lower it down, but I've seen lots of people do the "thumb roll" at matches too.

This is me shooting my Shadow 2 at a local match a few months back. Notice the slight pause as the gun hits extension before I fire. I'm aware of it and while I theoretically should start my DA press earlier, it is what it is. I'll live with it.


https://youtu.be/ySJK7mha1xYGun doesnt move at all! Im picking up a used Stock 2 for trial, anxious to see what effect that extra weight has on muzzle rise vs my Brig Tac

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[MSparks909]

Gun doesnt move at all! Im picking up a used Stock 2 for trial, anxious to see what effect that extra weight has on muzzle rise vs my Brig Tac

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The Brig Tac is an awesome gun...but the Shadow 2 is in a different class. Pure race gun. CZ built this one right.

[Bummy425]

The Brig Tac is an awesome gun...but the Shadow 2 is in a different class. Pure race gun. CZ built this one right.Thats kinda what I am expecting from the Stock 2...there is a reason they are so hard to find...

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[Mike C]

I am hoping this thread will help me and other shooters who have more experience with striker-fired guns get the most out of their DA/SA guns.

Here's my story: I'm hoping for advice and links to resources about learning to shoot a double-action gun (e.g. CZ) at the highest level. Because the Sig p320 can fire if dropped, I have recently switched to a CZ Shadow 2 for USPSA competition, and have only a month to learn how to shoot this gun before I go up against other M class shooters at Production Nationals.

One good article to start this off with is Ernest Langdon's Fear Not the Double-Action Shot (http://www.craigcentral.com/fearnot.htm).

I'm no Langdon or GJM, nor an M class shooter so take this for what it's worth. I am a LEM/Striker guy and have been working hard with a VP9 for almost a year now straight, (on and off before) but having recently been playing with the PX4 compact every day for the last few weeks the biggest and most helpful info I found was in Langdon's video. I believe it is the one you posted. Once you start the process of pulling the trigger don't stop. It pays to be aggressive with the trigger on the first shot working a press out or micro press as GJM said. Side note, I love this about the LEM and TDA guns. Once I stopped treating TDA/LEM guns like a two stage trigger my accuracy at speed improved across everything I shoot. The most baffling part is I now seem to be more accurate on the first shot with a DA pull than anything else. I am at the point now where I want to hate DA/SA and just stick with what I have been using but damn they are fun to shoot, you really get the best of both worlds. Good luck prepping for nationals, I wish you the best and I hope you kick some ass.

[Clusterfrack]

And finally, when it comes to the Nationals I will give you two main thoughts.

One, Be Brutally Accurate!
Two, Don't Shoot Scared!

Excellent advice! This reminds me of a conversation I had with Gabe a while back after a rifle match:

Clusterfrack:
I and my partner took 3rd at the USMC Scout Sniper Challenge... I was one of only two this year to clean the know your limits stage, and was the only one last year. This requires shooting really well and also not being a pussy :-)

Mr_White:
Shooting well = powerful. Not being a pussy = powerful. Shooting well and not being a pussy = shooting without doubt, and usually a dominating performance.

[GJM]

While we use words like DA/SA, LEM, 1911 and striker to describe platforms and their trigger pulls, in my mind, I just think of them as short, medium and long in travel, and light, medium and heavy in weight. So I vary how long and how hard I press, but otherwise I run them all the same.

[Mike C]

While we use words like DA/SA, LEM, 1911 and striker to describe platforms and their trigger pulls, in my mind, I just think of them as short, medium and long in travel, and light, medium and heavy in weight. So I vary how long and how hard I press, but otherwise I run them all the same.

Man that is spot on. It's a pity it took me so long to understand this.

[Clusterfrack]

Dryfiring now, second session of the day. Feeling much better already. Thanks for all the help dudes. I hope more good advice keeps rolling in.

[ranger]

Good luck at the match!

[Bummy425]

Not to freak you out, but keep an eye on your hammer. Friend just got a shadow 2 and the hammer cracked in first 400 rounds. He is still using it cracked, that was a couple of weeks ago that happened. Take a spare gun or hammer!

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[YVK]

I try to keep pushing my gat at a target when I break the DA shot, especially when shooting a small target. It is almost like a sensation of hyperextending myself forward, even though I don't generally shoot with hyperextended elbows. This is something that I developed myself empirically after being frustrated with shooting 2 inch dots at speed out of holster. This actually goes back to my LEM times but I just re-confirmed it with my DA guns too. I feel that it helps to keep staying on the target while that longish break happens. The way I think of this is that in order to see my sight lift off the target I need to be sure that that sight is still on the target before it starts to lift. Since it is easier to displace it off the target during the DA shot, I need some extra effort to keep holding that sight pic after I acquired it. Actively pushing it forward helps me to stay on the target a ton, as long as I don't forget about it. Don't know if this makes sense or if it is helpful to others.

This being a Utah location match, I will be very surprised if there is not a one-handed standards stage. Just a reminder to hit that DA with WHO/SHO.

See you at the match!

[spinmove_]

Honestly, just press the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights regardless of what state it's in. Dry firing both helps a lot. Controlled pairs in live fire help with the transition if you happen to have an issue with it.


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[Clobbersaurus]

GJM covered most everything but I will add a few things about dry practice that helped me (Take this for what it is worth, I'm only a B trying hard to make A);

Use tight par times on small targets from the draw to really refine your DA trigger press at speed. You need to be ruthless in your self assessment and shot calling when doing this, and be very focused on ensuring you are not allowing yourself to mash the trigger and disturb the sights just to make your par time. You need to gradually work to push that par time lower, but to start out you may need to be much more generous than you normally would.

Don't fall into the trap of only working the DA trigger during dry fire. DA press the first shot only, don't allow it to fully reset, then work the dead trigger as you would in SA. This is harder to do than you might think. Don't endulge the urge to do it, or you will find that you will slap the crap out if the trigger unnecessarily in live fire. You have a great SA trigger now, use it to your full advantage.

Edit: When working movement with multiple targets and/or reloads you will obviously have to come off the trigger, allowing it to reset. That is ok, just DA press the first shot and SA press the rest of your targets from that position.

That's about all I have to add. I think you will find DA/SA guns very rewarding to shoot once you begin to master them.

[Hrhawk]

Let me offer my humble perspective on running DA/SA guns for striker guys or for those struggling with that dreaded first shot.

I learned to shoot on a p226. I LOVE DA/SA, I shoot it at work and for fun but I also game with a striker fire pistol (p320) and I've never had a problem with the transition. Because... I NEVER take double action shots. I do this by employing a particular style of trigger control.

Take what I say with a grain of salt. I am not a GM yet. I am not an operator. I am a nobody. But, I've had the good fortune of training with a handful of the the most talented people in the industry, I shoot a fair amount, I teach professionally, and I think and read a WHOLE LOT about shooting and "stuff".

I first learned to shoot with that p226. I took a class with Bruce Gray 5 weeks after I bought it. He tough me to "prep" the trigger. I still do. He and Mr Langdon and others who's opinion i respect have already proven it's the way. I ABSOLUTELY begin my DA press while pressing out on the target. It is faster and it is more forgiving for most shooters. But I still struggled with getting it right. I could not find the same consistency at 35 yards that I had at 7 . The issue for me was the timing. The issue I see with a lot of shooters is the ability to have that shot break at or shortly after full extension. Many break shots early, oops, or shooters stop pressing half way and "stage" the trigger in order to wait for the sight picture to be acceptable. This often causes them to "yank" it when the sight show a green light in the minds. They couldn't meter the presentation with trigger speed in order to make more difficult shots, and the staging just made it worse as they had to over come the static friction incurred by having to restart the stroke/pull.

Now before anyone tells me speed doesn't matter and they can "slap" a trigger with a screwdriver and still make perfect/acceptable shots please understand that I agree. If we press/stroke that thing strait back without disturbing the sights then we can crush it anyway we want with whatever we want. But... most of us can't. We watch the Robbie Leathams "slap" at incredible distances and the Ben Stoegers hold hard and "pull" that trigger hard and fast straight back to the frame with incredible results and we desire to do that. Robbie has millions of rounds on us and Ben is a freak who likes to practice 4 hours a day. I needed a plan for mortals.

I did it and taught it the way I had been shown by Bruce and Earnie for a long time. But it wasn't enough, and for those of you teaching, public or private, especially in LEO academies or recurrent training venues you understand the constraints that time and ammo availability put on us. I wanted a method that was easier to learn and faster to develop and a method that WAS NOT an end unto itself, rather a technique that would lead us toward that elusive "slap" without disturbing the sight picture. So here is what I came up with... stop taking double action shots.

I had a 226 tuned by Bruce Gray, it was awesome. My buddy used another shop, it was different and the trigger was lighter. For a minute I though I preferred his. Then I shot it and could not hit $hit. That lighter trigger didn't "stack" I had no choice but to be perfect with my "slap". It rolled through the double action like an old revolver and broke like a dirty icicle. Side by side I realized Bruce had, by preserving the safety values in my 226, kept the "stack" at the end of the trigger pull. It was light and stupid smooth, but it was still there. I realized I shot it better because I used that feel to manage my trigger control. This is how I do it.

Clear you DA/SA pistol of choice, clear it again, remove all sources of ammo and clear it again. Now take your pistol, point in a safe direction and pull through the double action. My stock 229/226/gamer226/92/and HK all stack/get heavy toward the end of the DA just before the hammer falls. Every stock DA/SA gun I've shot does. Most people hate this. I advocate loving it.

I was taught to begin my trigger "stroke" during my press out. I've been told to start at different points by different instructors but the goal was the same. Get started sooner and you will finish sooner. But still that damn timing. What I realized playing with my buddies gun was I needed the trigger to "stack" or get "heavy" just before the hammer fell. I needed it because I used it as a tactile reference that informed my trigger control.

We all dry fire and we all want to "slap" without disturbing the sights. How many of us can do it consistently? What if instead of rolling all the way through the DA during the press out we prepped very aggressively to the point where the trigger stacks or gets heavy, just before the hammer falls, and slow down every moment there after? Instead of trying to "time" the break with the press out and sights we now can use a tactile reference that would tell us it's about to go boom. Then we slow down as much as as we need to achieve an acceptable sight picture and then finish rolling through the trigger stroke/press. We are no longer reliant on timing or 80/20 70/30 methods. We can FEEL where to start being careful.

If I learn to index the gun appropriately then...
7 yards I don't slow down. Rock and roll.
15 yards I slow down a little to make sure the sight picture is acceptable
35 yards I slows down a lot
And so on.
I DO NOT let the trigger stop at any point. There is no staging. I do not slow down to actively make better/cleaner trigger strokes/presses. That I can address in dry fire. I slow down to allow myself more time to guarantee the sight picture is acceptable for the given shot. The secondary benefit is this slow down allows the trigger to roll through the release allowing me to break cleaner shots.

When I teach this I often describe a big hill...long slope down into the valley... small hill and the hammer falls.

The big hill--I prep aggressively through the initial movement of the trigger.
The slope--I continue through this aggressively
The valley-- I easy off
The small hill-- roll up this as slow as needed to clean the sight picture
Crest the small hill-- hammer falls.

I accomplish most of this prep to the slow down in the first half of my press out on target. Everything after that is dictated by how clean my sight picture needs to be. Because I prep aggressively to the valley for every shot and roll over the small hill I am essentially ALWAYS TAKING SINGLE ACTION SHOTS.

I don't ever think about long double actions because they are not a part of my process. It's just a thing that helps me be more aggressive to the point where I can feel something that will allow me to slow down if I need for a given distance or difficult shot. It does not take long to learn. It's been working for me and my guys.

Here is the secret sauce. Now that timing is out and it's all about feel I gain more control. How fast I get to high ready is irrelevant. How fast I press out is irrelevant. It's just what I feel in the trigger and how much my eyes tell me to slow down.

It is also a roadmap to the perfect slap. If I learn this and begin by always slowing down at the start of the valley then fine. As my index/grip and everything else begins to improve during dry fire then I can start to slow down later/ deeper in the valley. When you start to gain more control and familiarity you can prep into the up side of that small hill.

We can always start slowing later in the process as we get better. Eventually we don't need to slow down on....
7 yard targets
Then
15
Then
20
Then
25... and so on.

We have a way to teach ourselves to slap when our index catches up with a finger control and feel that we learned a long time ago. We don't have to relearn timing as we get better.

Long winded but it's how I does trigger control. I can't be the first to see this. All DA/SA guns have it. If you have not tried it give it a shot. Do a bunch of dry press outs or complete draws being aggressive to the valley then slow down. Ask your self if you have more control. Ask yourself what you could do with it. Go to the range and find out.

[YVK]

Interesting take. I generally press through a DA with a constant speed; a faster speed on a hoser target and slower speed on a hard one. Same principle as on SA shot. Of course, if I see that I lost acceptable sight pic or alignment, I would slow down my press or maybe even stop pressing until sights are back on. Thanks for sharing.

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks for the tips, HrHawk. I'll play with my trigger force-time curve. I have found that decelerating a bit at the very end of a fast striker trigger press disturbs the sights less.

Edit: after reading your post, I compared the trigger pulls of my CZ Shadow 2 and stock HK USPc. I can feel the force-length curve you describe in the HK, but not in the CZ. There's no "little hill" at the end of the pull. It's just one smooth long pull with a clean break at the end. No stacking I can perceive. So far,I get the best results from a Ben Stoeger-type technique.

I can see how your technique could be helpful for the right kind of trigger though.

[Hrhawk]

Cajunized? For sure most custom shops remove that feel.

[Clusterfrack]

Cajunized? For sure most custom shops remove that feel.

Nope. All I've done to my Shadow 2 trigger is put in a 11.5# mainspring. It has a very nice action straight from the factory.

[Sal Picante]

GJM mentioned the whole decocking thing...

Here's a good video that demo's my preferred way to do it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpcHRoL35Po

[Hrhawk]

My experience with the CZ lineup is definitely limited. I wonder what a standard 75 feels like compared to the Shadow customs? All the CZs I get to play with have been worked over to some degree.

[Clusterfrack]

I've been dry firing--and live firing--heavily, and am making good progress. After experimenting with the DA trigger pull in the Ben Stoeger "Trigger Press at Speed" drill, I found what works well for me: press the trigger very rapidly, and try to get my finger back off the trigger as fast as possible. My finger never really comes off the trigger, but this feeling seems to minimize the impact of the trigger at the end of its stroke, and prevent sympathetic squeeze from the other fingers.

[Clusterfrack]

1200 rounds later and two dryfire sessions per day... this is challenging--especially support hand only. But I'm already seeing some gains with the Shadow on drills that emphasize precision, like the Leatham drill. As GJM mentioned, transitions might be slower for some target arrays. And I am not loving DA draws to very difficult targets yet.

[ranger]

If I got the first DA shot right, I jerked the first SA shot. I always found the first SA shot the one I had to watch.

[LSP552]

If I got the first DA shot right, I jerked the first SA shot. I always found the first SA shot the one I had to watch.

That's actually pretty common. Working 2 and 3 shot drills, starting in DA, to separate small targets is a great way to fix that. Dry fire works also. Dry fire a DA shot then let the trigger out enough to simulate a SA shot. I find that transitioning to a separate target for DA and SA helps focus on trigger control and decreases snatching the 1st SA shot.

[EricM]

How do you guys work a light SA trigger? My general understanding has been that one releases the trigger past the reset point and takes up the slack during recoil, so you're waiting at the wall by the time your sight picture is ready. I'm finding that exceedingly difficult to do without occasionally going right through the wall.

I'm coming from Glocks with a 5 lb pull to a Langdon/Robar PX4C with SA around 3.5 lb. My Glocks were set up so they didn't really have a wall, though there were two distinct "stages" to the pull. Generally, I just pulled straight through in one motion from wherever I was at, though on difficult shots I would rapidly take up the pretravel and then pull smoothly through the second stage separately. There was quite a bit of movement involved yet at that higher weight before the shot broke. With the PX4C that is not the case, it seems my finger has to be moving very slowly to be able to detect the wall without going through it. I only have about 750 rounds through the platform compared to probably 30K on Glocks, so I recognize I'm still in the very early stages, but after dedicating some time to this issue at the range today, I'm unsure whether familiarity will really improve this or if my assumptions about how I should work the trigger were incorrect. This is the lightest trigger of any gun I have owned, and it seems like there is such a small margin between prepping and firing it makes me a bit uncomfortable.

As I type this, I wonder if I'm just overthinking it. Slap it without remorse when I can get away with it, take whatever time it takes to finesse it when I really have to. I guess for whatever reason I expected there to be a middle ground, where I would be consciously prepping after reset although shooting at a fairly rapid pace. I don't have the quantity of live fire I'd like to be able to experiment with different approaches, so I come to you guys for advice.

[MSparks909]

As I type this, I wonder if I'm just overthinking it. Slap it without remorse when I can get away with it, take whatever time it takes to finesse it when I really have to. I guess for whatever reason I expected there to be a middle ground, where I would be consciously prepping after reset although shooting at a fairly rapid pace. I don't have the quantity of live fire I'd like to be able to experiment with different approaches, so I come to you guys for advice.

For me, it really depends on the target size and speed cadence at which I'm firing. If I'm shooting the 15Y portion of the Super Test for instance, I'm gonna prep the trigger before firing. However, on the 5Y portion there isn't enough time (for me) to prep the trigger between shots. Hold the gun firm and just stroke through the wall. Same with Bill Drills and other speed drills. It's gonna take some time to get comfortable with prepping the trigger to the wall, especially on the Robar'd PX4s. I have to be more conscious of finding the wall when shooting these compared to my fleet of 92s, which are mostly stock (and have a more discernible wall).

[CraigS]

How do you guys work a light SA trigger? My general understanding has been that one releases the trigger past the reset point and takes up the slack during recoil, so you're waiting at the wall by the time your sight picture is ready. I'm finding that exceedingly difficult to do without occasionally going right through the wall.I'm coming from Glocks with a 5 lb pull to a Langdon/Robar PX4C with SA around 3.5 lb.... While I don't have a PX4c, I wonder if 3.5#SA is too light. Some years ago, before I had a trigger pull gauge, my EII had worn the SA in so nicely, that I was getting some inadvertent double taps just shooting at paper. I bought a new sear and installed it to make the SA a little heavier. Currently my SAs on various 92s are all in the 4# range.

[Clusterfrack]

Prepping the trigger--yes I do that with my new Shadow, and always have with striker guns. That's why I prefer some takeup in SA. Otherwise, I think the best option is to come off the trigger or risk trigger freeze.

[Clusterfrack]

Quick update. I'm really liking this gun! It's basically like shooting a Limited gun in Production.

On Saturday, I shot a big outlaw match called the Dundee Crazy Croc. It's a very high round count match, so I competed in Limited with 17 round mags. Even though the rules didn't require it, I started with hammer down. My goal just was to get some experience under stress with the Shadow 2. I ended up placing well into the top 10 (even with a 22.5s penalty for forgetting about two targets on the first stage). The most exciting thing is I am now looking forward to shooting tough targets with the double action trigger pull. I don't know why, but I just like the feeling of the long hard pull, and seeing a 20 yd mini popper go down.

[cheby]

With my usual luck I broke my arm last Monday. This is the most important time of the year for me with several major matches every weekend and the Nationals in September. So I cancelled the matches but still planning on going to the Nationals because they will remove the cast a few days before. The doctor said they may have to put the cast back when I return though, ugh...
It is going to be even more challenging without any practice but I just cannot miss it...
Yesterday I could not take it anymore and went to the range to practice SHO. It was very productive - 400rds of various drills mostly from low ready with a fully decocked gun. Shooting SHO got me thinking about the DA/SA again. At the beginning I was a little too conservative but very soon I started pushing it. I would not even think of DA unless it was a 12 yrd head shoot. Just saw my sights and pulled the trigger. I think I need to work on my target transitions SHO more than a trigger pull.
This is what I think about shooting the DA - just ignore it, see the sights and pull the trigger.

[Clusterfrack]

Dude. As I've already said--that sucks. You're going to be at the top on WHO skills.

[GJM]

How do you guys work a light SA trigger? My general understanding has been that one releases the trigger past the reset point and takes up the slack during recoil, so you're waiting at the wall by the time your sight picture is ready. I'm finding that exceedingly difficult to do without occasionally going right through the wall.

I'm coming from Glocks with a 5 lb pull to a Langdon/Robar PX4C with SA around 3.5 lb. My Glocks were set up so they didn't really have a wall, though there were two distinct "stages" to the pull. Generally, I just pulled straight through in one motion from wherever I was at, though on difficult shots I would rapidly take up the pretravel and then pull smoothly through the second stage separately. There was quite a bit of movement involved yet at that higher weight before the shot broke. With the PX4C that is not the case, it seems my finger has to be moving very slowly to be able to detect the wall without going through it. I only have about 750 rounds through the platform compared to probably 30K on Glocks, so I recognize I'm still in the very early stages, but after dedicating some time to this issue at the range today, I'm unsure whether familiarity will really improve this or if my assumptions about how I should work the trigger were incorrect. This is the lightest trigger of any gun I have owned, and it seems like there is such a small margin between prepping and firing it makes me a bit uncomfortable.

As I type this, I wonder if I'm just overthinking it. Slap it without remorse when I can get away with it, take whatever time it takes to finesse it when I really have to. I guess for whatever reason I expected there to be a middle ground, where I would be consciously prepping after reset although shooting at a fairly rapid pace. I don't have the quantity of live fire I'd like to be able to experiment with different approaches, so I come to you guys for advice.

This post reinforces a key DA/SA belief. People spend disproportionate amounts of practice time on the DA press, and underestimate what goes into shooting a SA trigger, thinking since it is SA it must be easy. Also, if most of your time is on one gun, you can start to work a trigger subconsciously, which then hurts you when you change to something different.

[Hrhawk]

While I don't prefer 3.5lbs SA triggers they are still very "prepable". Yes, I think we should be resetting the gun in recoil. I don't see any reason no to. Pinning and then letting out, feeling and listening for a click, is a plague that should be exterminated.

Some things I find helpful in prepping the SA include dry practice.

-With an UNLOADED PISTOL, hold it in your strong hand, pull the trigger and hold to the rear.
-Come over the top with your "other" strong hand and rack the slide quickly.
-While the slide is in motion reset the trigger and prep as desired.

In addition, when learning the skill I find it easier for most to not prep beyond removing the mechanical slack. If you goal is removal of that slack only and no other pressure on the trigger face it is much more manageable. As your skill via dry fire increases you can start removing the slack and prepping into that 3.5 as you see fit or need given a particular target distance or level of difficulty.

I think many underestimate just how fast you can do this. I feel very comfortable saying I prep right down to low 0.2x splits. Beyond that speed I've already predetermine a number of rounds going down range and do press straight through.

Always I have the desire to push how aggressive I can be with this. If I prep the mechanical slack only so be it but this skill allows me to work up. At 5-10 on an A zone I don't need to slow very much for the prep. At 35 I definitely do. But pushing this skill is not an end in and of it self. It is the means by which I'm learning, as my skill improves, to slap at even further distances.

At least this is what I tell myself. I could be full of crap. YMMV.

[LSP552]

I think it helps to think of trigger control (and sight alignment) as a continuum. There is a place for a slap, prepping in recoil and impeccable follow through, and everything in between based on need for speed, size of the target and margin of error.

[Doc_Glock]

This DA/SA learning process can be frustrating. I was amazed at how many shots with a beautiful SA trigger I was still able to flinch off target today.

It got better and the practice was fun, but dang.

[ranger]

I have always avoided TDA - try it and run away. Drank some of the PX4 coolaid though and spent Saturday and Sunday working a PX4 fullsize 9mm with the Competition Trigger Upgrade. Ran the 10-10-10 drill many times and was pleased with my improvement.

[willie]

Try this. Wrap the first joint of your trigger finger around the trigger with the hammer at rest. From this point establish the rest of your grip. You will find that with a 2 hand hold this grip is stable and works well for s.a. and d.a. fire. Try this first while dry firing so you can establish the most suitable grip. I have used this technique for several decades, and it has worked for me and many others. It was not my original idea.

[Clusterfrack]

Try this. Wrap the first joint of your trigger finger around the trigger with the hammer at rest. From this point establish the rest of your grip. You will find that with a 2 hand hold this grip is stable and works well for s.a. and d.a. fire. Try this first while dry firing so you can establish the most suitable grip. I have used this technique for several decades, and it has worked for me and many others. It was not my original idea.

Most suitable grip--great topic for discussion. When I started working seriously with the Shadow 2, this was my first priority. With "Smedium" sized hands, I could see this was going to be a challenge. In fact, hand size was the main reason I had avoided DA/SA guns in the past. Here's a link (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27221-Small-hands-and-trigger-finger-placement) to a thread on the topic of hand size.

In finding the most suitable grip, given the constraints of morphology, I needed to consider:

-muzzle and recoil orientation for freestyle and single-hand shooting

-trigger mechanics (see Surf's excellent video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-eJTS_5qg) on this topic)

-reach to mag and slide release

-ability to reliably grip the gun the same way during the draw

On the p320 with a small gripframe, I am able to optimize all of the above. I can index the gun for a perfectly vertical orbit of the sights during recoil. My trigger finger is positioned so that during the pull there isn't a big disturbance of the sights. I can activate the mag and slide releases without altering my grip.

With the Shadow 2, I had to compromise. I found a repeatable grip that yielded a good return of the sights and a very good SA trigger pull. But that grip puts my trigger finger somewhat on the edge of the trigger in DA, and I have to "flip" the gun to drop the mag. I can just barely reach the slide release with the tip of my thumb.

Most other CZs and Tanfos are too big for my hands.

[EricM]

I appreciate all the feedback. While there are dozens of threads on how to run a Glock trigger or LEM, I couldn't find anything discussing the subtleties of single action (which goes to GJM's point).

Hrhawk, thank you for your thorough post, very helpful. I need to take a step back and look at it as a skill to be learned and improved over time, and respect the distinction between pushing my overall performance and working on a particular issue. For example, I ran the Super Test a few times the other day and recognized I was falling back on some old habits on trigger manipulation. The par times are pretty generous so even with my inefficiency I still shot a respectable 292 twice. But for Langdon's version, which slashes the par times, I know that I would need to do things differently to cut out that inefficiency. Accepting some short-term "regression" can be easier said than done but I really want to take the time to learn to shoot this platform the right way. I have indeed spent a lot more dry fire time with DA and need to work on incorporating SA. Moving beyond the basics like draws, reloads, and slow-fire trigger control will take more thought with the Beretta; I've been a bit spoiled with the auto-reset trigger in my Glock, where I didn't have to break things down as much.


I think it helps to think of trigger control (and sight alignment) as a continuum. There is a place for a slap, prepping in recoil and impeccable follow through, and everything in between based on need for speed, size of the target and margin of error.

Well said. When it comes to prepping in single action I have been thinking of it more as a discrete technique, which is not really the case. With a certain target difficulty it may be appropriate to add pressure at a given rate that results in a perceptible pause at the wall...is that prepping, or is that pulling straight through, since you're adding pressure at a steady rate even though the movement is not constant? Degrees of both.

Follow-up question, as a couple responses touched on this and I'm curious...what SA weight would you guys consider optimal for all-around use? Appropriate for carry but not giving up much in terms of shootability. I got the Robar guns because I liked the idea of the NP3 and personally enjoy a really smooth DA pull. The light SA was a bit of a surprise. I'll be picking up a standard full-size PX4 shortly, so I'll see what I think of the stock trigger soon (only swapping out the hammer spring).

[MSparks909]

I think a 4-4.5# SA for general use is about perfect. I personally blow through the 3.5# SA's on my 1911s and PX4 Mod 4s when shooting with any kind of speed. Even if I really slow down and "feel" the trigger 3.5# still feels stupid light. 4.5# gives me better feedback when I'm really gripping hard and ripping fast splits.

[Hrhawk]

4.5-5.5 sound good to me. I also consider the quality of the trigger pull. Smooth like glass is great but a little texture can really help with prepping. Equally important is how the trigger breaks. I know most people will tell you the want it to break like glass. I have no interest in that. With that break I have no option but to apply pressure continuously because telling the difference between 2lbs and 4.6 is incredibly difficult.

Imagine holding an icicle on either end and applying pressure to snap it on the middle. When would you know it was going to break?

I prefer my triggers feel like carrots they bend and then break. This bend is what I can prep into. It informs my technique.

If you are gonna mod a trigger or have the action worked over consider what kind of "feel" you are going for and what "feel" you want to support the technique you want to employ.


Fresh carrots of course.

[MGW]

I learned a lot about shooting TDA with lots of changing gears drills. I shot it with easy first shots and hard first shots. Single shot to each target and multiple shots to each target. Adding a par time increased the pressure and pointed out flaws in my technique.

I also did the same drills in dry fire while simulating SA follow up shots by not allowing the trigger to reset.

I'm far from an expert with TDA but these drills really helped me make a quick jump in my skill level.

[Clusterfrack]

More progress today. At least in freestyle shooting, the DA pull is not holding me back. I was able to clock some 0.62s - 0.64s draws to an A at 7 yds, and shot a 98% El Pres without much difficulty.

However, I'm still yanking DA shots SHO and WHO. Its not just trigger mechanics. I'm seeing an occasional pre-ignition push emerge that I haven't dealt with in years.

Rx: more dryfire.

[LSP552]

More progress today. At least in freestyle shooting, the DA pull is not holding me back. I was able to clock some 0.62s - 0.64s draws to an A at 7 yds, and shot a 98% El Pres without much difficulty.

However, I'm still yanking DA shots SHO and WHO. Its not just trigger mechanics. I'm seeing an occasional pre-ignition push emerge that I haven't dealt with in years.

Rx: more dryfire.

Something to consider working SHO and WHO is to shoot some drills intentionally varying the speed of the DA press. I like to raise the gun up from a low ready and press, working towards breaking the DA shot as the sights align. Shoot 5 at one speed, one DA press at a time. Then increase the speed of both snapping the gun up and the trigger press.

It's common for new TDA shooters to slow down the speed of their press when shooting with a single hand. I've caught myself doing the same. When I start slowing the press down, I reach a point where I tend to anticipate more. I "think" its because I start inserting my conscious brain in the process to shift gears to a slower press. Thinking about the trigger press is almost always a bad idea.

This drill works well with two hands also. Its a pretty way to find just how fast you can manipulate the DA trigger and still get acceptable hits.

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks LSP552. That makes excellent sense. Will do.

[spinmove_]

Something to consider working SHO and WHO is to shoot some drills intentionally varying the speed of the DA press. I like to raise the gun up from a low ready and press, working towards breaking the DA shot as the sights align. Shoot 5 at one speed, one DA press at a time. Then increase the speed of both snapping the gun up and the trigger press.

It's common for new TDA shooters to slow down the speed of their press when shooting with a single hand. I've caught myself doing the same. When I start slowing the press down, I reach a point where I tend to anticipate more. I "think" its because I start inserting my conscious brain in the process to shift gears to a slower press. Thinking about the trigger press is almost always a bad idea.

This drill works well with two hands also. Its a pretty way to find just how fast you can manipulate the DA trigger and still get acceptable hits.

I've found that this is the case regardless of trigger system as I've done it with Glocks and other SFA pistols plenty of times. It's definitely the conscious thought part and not "it's that DA trigger press" part. The biggest problem I have with shooting is removing the conscious thought from the act of pressing the trigger. Too much OCD on wanting the prefect shot every single press.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[cheby]

When I start slowing the press down, I reach a point where I tend to anticipate more. I "think" its because I start inserting my conscious brain in the process to shift gears to a slower press. Thinking about the trigger press is almost always a bad idea.

.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said "just ignore the DA". Of course there is a learning curve and it is going to take some time but the approach is this - See the sights, pull the trigger, ignore the DA