Broke my M&P...

[PPGMD]

Posted this on another forum that I visit a bit more often. But I figure the audience here would be interested in a data point.

Copy and pasta because I don't feel like rewriting it.
So I went to an IDPA match tonight. Started shooting the first stage, and after the first target my gun wouldn't work. Perform immediate action, still nothing. I stop analyze the gun, realize the trigger wasn't resetting, so I continue shooting manually resetting the trigger, this lasts about two 3 shot target arrays before I said fuck it, and quit the stage.

Unfortunately this was the one night that I didn't bring my identical back up gun, but luckily I had my XD(M) 5.25" that I was practicing with earlier in the day for another type of match. So they let me reshoot in ESP, I get to the end of the stage, and now the slide won't budge. So apparently this is fairly common so the SO showed me a technique to clear the gun. But UGH two guns with issues.

After I had a chance to get away, I stripped my M&P down and realize that the trigger return spring is broken. I have a spare Duty/Carry Spring kit, so I will have it fixed by tomorrow night, but I need to call Apex and see if I can just order a trigger return spring.

Anyways M&P Full Size 9mm #1 has a total of 5,808 rounds, with 5,005 rounds since the D/C AEK was installed, and 1,195 round since last cleaning.

On my XD(M) side, even though it is a common issue, I just installed a Powder River trigger kit, so I will check the fitment between the grip safety and the sear.

Both worked fine during my practice sessions earlier in the day, so I don't know.

---
Well today I cleaned my M&P (with the help of my ultrasonic), Apex is getting me a replacement spring, but I also fixed it by using spare spring kit I purchased for exactly this reason.

Pictures (yeah it's not up to my usual standards, but I didn't feel like getting my DSLR and lights out).
http://www.lazyeights.net/Avion/MiscGunPics/SW_MP/SW_MP1_Jan_2012.jpg

Broken Trigger Return Spring (I think the other part is somewhere in my bag, it wasn't in the gun when I stripped it down on the bench, but it was there last night)
http://www.lazyeights.net/Avion/MiscGunPics/SW_MP/SW_MP1_Broken_TRS_Apex_DCAEK.jpg

[JV_]

I broke at least two apex trigger springs with low round counts, one was well under 5k. FredM broke one to two as well.

They look the same as yours, right were the coil stops.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

[Kyle Reese]

I broke at least two apex trigger springs with low round counts, one was well under 5k. FredM broke one to two as well.

They look the same as yours, right were the coil stops.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

Yup. One of the reasons I no longer run an M&P.

[Tamara]

I broke at least two apex trigger springs with low round counts, one was well under 5k. FredM broke one to two as well.

They look the same as yours, right were the coil stops.
That's got "bad lot of springs at Apex" written all over it. Wonder who they sourced 'em from? (Wolff? ISMI?) Wonder what the failure rate from that lot is, and if they've junked and replaced the remainder?

[JV_]

It was blamed on the two loops being not aligned, they were supposed to have fixed that issue. I don't have many data points from the new design.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

[Spr1]

What was the time frame for the bad lot?

[JV_]

What was the time frame for the bad lot?

Apex never called it a bad lot, at least not that I'm aware of. The loop alignment was changed a few months after it was released (DCAEK).

-Sent using Tapatalk.

[PPGMD]

Do you dry fire much?

As I found out after breaking two trigger return springs in my P30 over the course a a few months, you have to include your dry fire trigger press count in addition to live fire round count when dealing with the replacement interval for trigger return springs (or any other sprint that gets cycled as a matter of course while dry firing).

Does the Pope wear a funny hat? :D

Yeah I dry fire a lot, I don't really figure them into the round count because honestly I don't know how many trigger pulls I do. While live fire is easy to track. I actually bought two identical M&P 9 full sizes for that reason, so I could dry fire without having to unload my carry gun.

For those wondering about the date, I installed the D/C AEK almost exactly a year ago, 01/07/2011, purchased about the same time.

[Randy Lee]

Hi all,

From the pic of the breakage, it appears to be one of our early springs. The loops have a sharp turn just before the loop. The problem with the manufacture was that our spring fabricator didn't understand the forces that the spring has to tolerate under recoil. If you look at our current spring, the loops have a gentle taper. That said , any extension spring can fail when subjected to shock while the spring is extended.
It was not a bad lot as there are several thousand of the early generation springs still in service.
We are actively trying to improve our products and improve service life. New wire alloys, shapes and post treatments are all being explored. There are things that you can do to prolong service life of the TRS. First is to keep the spring lubricated. Using gun scrubber or even ultrasonic cleaning will leech oil out of the spring and allow rust to infiltrate the coils. If you do strip the oil out of the spring, add a drop of oil to the spring. I use a syringe to fill the core of the spring with a light grease.


I personally do not like the use of extension springs or torsion springs when it comes to trigger return. My CZ 75B springs have broken with some regularity. It is why I eliminated the spring on my new trigger bar/sear housing block that I am currently working on.

[Tamara]

Thank you! That's good to know. :cool:

[PPGMD]

From the pic of the breakage, it appears to be one of our early springs. The loops have a sharp turn just before the loop. The problem with the manufacture was that our spring fabricator didn't understand the forces that the spring has to tolerate under recoil. If you look at our current spring, the loops have a gentle taper. That said , any extension spring can fail when subjected to shock while the spring is extended.
It was not a bad lot as there are several thousand of the early generation springs still in service.

About when did this change occur, I'm looking at my sheet, and the D/C AEK installed in number 2 is from 8/7/2011. So far it has no issues, but it is only at 5,903 rounds since it was installed, more then the TRS in number 1 but not that much more.


We are actively trying to improve our products and improve service life. New wire alloys, shapes and post treatments are all being explored. There are things that you can do to prolong service life of the TRS. First is to keep the spring lubricated. Using gun scrubber or even ultrasonic cleaning will leech oil out of the spring and allow rust to infiltrate the coils. If you do strip the oil out of the spring, add a drop of oil to the spring. I use a syringe to fill the core of the spring with a light grease.

Good to know. Though I don't like sticking springs in my ultrasonic cleaner. I just like to wipe them off with a paper towel.

Couple of questions, when I pulled the sear housing block out, I couldn't get the RAM out of it. It was very much stuck, what could cause that?

Also when I went to reinstall the sear housing block, it just wouldn't go in with the ILS plug in place for some reason. Any issues firing it without the plug in place?

Anyways I was never too concerned, I break guns. Which is why I keep meticulous records these days for rounds counts, and parts replacements. Just haven't worked out a schedule for the M&P (and the lack of certain important springs like the recoil spring isn't helping).

[GJM]

I have found Randy, Scott and the entire Apex crew to be extremely responsive. Just curious, were you able to reach Apex, and get the part you were looking for?

[Randy Lee]

About when did this change occur, I'm looking at my sheet, and the D/C AEK installed in number 2 is from 8/7/2011. So far it has no issues, but it is only at 5,903 rounds since it was installed, more then the TRS in number 1 but not that much more.



Good to know. Though I don't like sticking springs in my ultrasonic cleaner. I just like to wipe them off with a paper towel.

Couple of questions, when I pulled the sear housing block out, I couldn't get the RAM out of it. It was very much stuck, what could cause that?

Also when I went to reinstall the sear housing block, it just wouldn't go in with the ILS plug in place for some reason. Any issues firing it without the plug in place?

Anyways I was never too concerned, I break guns. Which is why I keep meticulous records these days for rounds counts, and parts replacements. Just haven't worked out a schedule for the M&P (and the lack of certain important springs like the recoil spring isn't helping).

The contacting ledge of the RAM most likely has a raised lip due to use. Tapping the RAM with a small punch from the right will push it through the sear block. We phased the new spring style into production in early May.

It sounds like your frame plug may have a nick or deformation
that is preventing the sear block from seating.
Do not shoot the gun without the plug, as the torque from firing will cause the left side steel frame runner to deform. The frame plug beats against the protruding side of the ils hole to act as a support in that area.

Randy

[PPGMD]

It sounds like your frame plug may have a nick or deformation
that is preventing the sear block from seating.
Do not shoot the gun without the plug, as the torque from firing will cause the left side steel frame runner to deform. The frame plug beats against the protruding side of the ils hole to act as a support in that area.

Typical, guess the gun will be down for longer then I planned. Fortunately I found that Midway has a few of the plugs in stock. But the parts situation is frustrating, many of the needed parts like springs, and such are rarely in stock anywhere. I was hoping to pick up a take down lever spring (since the take down lever spring is really weak in number 1), and recoil springs but no such luck. I bet if I had a badge and called Smith and Wesson they would suddenly be in stock.

[iakdrago]

Is the spring design in a stock M&P susceptible to the described problems? Or is the suspect feature only pertinent to the drop in trigger upgrade. I lack the expertise in springs, and would appreciate the clarification.

Thanks

[Randy Lee]

The fact is that all springs can break. We have several factory springs that have broken. The extension spring gets jostled around pretty violently during recoil, which means the spring is moving in axes that it wasn't designed to absorb. This is why the trigger return in my new system is a fully supported compression spring.

I usually recommend changing out the trigger return springs every 7k or so. Mine have 15k+ on my carry gun and roughly twice that on my competition gun. I will be taking my own advice for once. :o

If you keep the spring lubricated, regardless of vintage, it should last.

-Randy

[KeeFus]

And just in case you trigger spring breaks when you are actually using it...it can still shoot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag2Zsdjat70&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[PPGMD]

And just in case you trigger spring breaks when you are actually using it...it can still shoot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag2Zsdjat70&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Looks like me when it broke, except I had an entire 15 shots of an 18 shot stage left, and I called it after the second target array.

[Tamara]

I personally do not like the use of extension springs or torsion springs when it comes to trigger return.
You know who never used an extension spring in one of his designs? John Moses Browning, that's who. ;)

[JAD]

No, but he did use two leaf springs in his finest design. Which, properly done, do not seem to need replacement within any known number of rounds.

[Randy Lee]

Although he did use a torsion trigger return spring on the Hi Power. And they have been known to break.
Not trying to dis JMB, it's just another example(this is my opinion only) of where spring design did not take into account the multi-axis forces of handgun recoil.

-Randy

[Tamara]

Although he did use a torsion trigger return spring on the Hi Power. And they have been known to break.
Not trying to dis JMB, it's just another example(this is my opinion only) of where spring design did not take into account the multi-axis forces of handgun recoil.
My religion blames any defects in the GP-35 on Saive. ;)

[NETim]

My religion blames any defects in the GP-35 on Saive. ;)

:D

[PPGMD]

I got the spring from Apex, and the replacement ILS frame plug on Thursday. Tested the gun today ran fine, now to continue to abuse it.