AIWB and IDPA

[bdcheung]

Is AIWB IDPA compliant? I've heard conflicting reports.

[JV_]

No.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?916-IWB-to-AIWB&highlight=idpa

[jetfire]

The short answer to your question is "no". In the future it may be allowed, but for right now it's off the table.

[jar]

I'd rate the likelyhood of IDPA allowing AIWB about the same as them allowing red dots, WMLs, and Lasers.

[ToddG]

"Off the table" meaning they've said it won't be part of the expected changes from the tiger teams?

[jetfire]

"Off the table" meaning they've said it won't be part of the expected changes from the tiger teams?

No, what I meant was if you go to an IDPA match today, you can't AIWB. As far as the Tiger Teams go, I honestly have no idea what the rules committee is looking at changing. It was one of many proposed changes to the IDPA rules, and there's no indication one way or the other of what they're going to accept/delete/change.

If I had to make a wild-ass guess, I'd say that you might see elimination of round dumping, a more formalized definition of cover, and possibly allowing .40s into CDP (which means I'd dump my G21 for a G35 most rickey-tick). But that's a wild-ass guess.

[SteveK]

I just can't seeing them allowing it from a safety standpoint.

[MikeyC]

The rules have to be set up expecting the actions of the most inexperienced, dumbest, or most inept shooting on the range. Don't hold your breath

[gringop]

My uninformed guess is that there is no way IDPA would allow AIWB, just as they don't allow crossdraw, SOB, fanny packs and ankle holsters. No matter what the advantages or disadvantages, there is just too much liability given the wide variation in skill and experience in contestants.

Even though USPSA allows a form of appendix carry, you are not allowed to muzzle any part of your body. That pretty much precludes AIWB from USPSA.

Gringop

[EmanP]

Safety aspect? That's a joke. I've seen more IDPA shooters trying to holster loaded pistols into thier rickity ass IWB colapsable holsters while pointing it directly into their bodies. I'd have DQ'd dozens of people every year if it wasn't allowed in the rules. It's ridiculous that AIWB isn't allowed for 'safety reasons' while these fat ass clowns are allowed to point loaded guns into themselves while trying to shove it in their crappy holsters.

[joshs]

My uninformed guess is that there is no way IDPA would allow AIWB, just as they don't allow crossdraw, SOB, fanny packs and ankle holsters. No matter what the advantages or disadvantages, there is just too much liability given the wide variation in skill and experience in contestants.

Even though USPSA allows a form of appendix carry, you are not allowed to muzzle any part of your body. That pretty much precludes AIWB from USPSA.

Gringop

That rule (10.5.5) does not apply to covering the lower extremities while drawing or holstering. AIWB is perfectly legal in the USPSA Open, Limited, and L10.

[jetfire]

Safety aspect? That's a joke. I've seen more IDPA shooters trying to holster loaded pistols into thier rickity ass IWB colapsable holsters while pointing it directly into their bodies. I'd have DQ'd dozens of people every year if it wasn't allowed in the rules. It's ridiculous that AIWB isn't allowed for 'safety reasons' while these fat ass clowns are allowed to point loaded guns into themselves while trying to shove it in their crappy holsters.

This is the truth. My favorite are the dudes with the floppy leather holsters that have to prop the holster open with their support hand while holstering.

[JConn]

Along those same lines though, most people who would aiwb in idpa wouldn't be using a shaggy. They would be using some bad floppy pos.

[Mr_White]

The rules have to be set up expecting the actions of the most inexperienced, dumbest, or most inept shooting on the range. Don't hold your breath

I understand that disallowing AIWB may be the course of action IDPA continues to choose to deal with those safety concerns.

But, how does USPSA get by, allowing AIWB in Limited and Open, assuming I understand the rules correctly?

That suggests to me that it can be allowed safely, even with the wide range of competitor capability that can be expected in the shooting sports. Isn't that ultimately because there are other rules in place that require a competitor to actually conduct themselves safely or face disqualification?

I wish IDPA would get on board with AIWB. I emailed the Tiger Teams. I am sure others have too.

And I think you are right that I should not hold my breath.

Edited to add: I see others covered this same point while I was distracted from finishing my post.

[jar]

This is the truth. My favorite are the dudes with the floppy leather holsters that have to prop the holster open with their support hand while holstering.

I was about to post that if they sweep their support hand doing it, it's a DQ, but unfortunately it's not spelled out in the book. I'd issue a DQ under "Endangering any person, including yourself.", but, as usual, I wish the IDPA rulebook was more clear about it.

Edit to respond to origamiAK: USPSA doesn't explicitly allow AIWB. It's just that USPSA's rules work the opposite way from IDPA: whatever is not prohibited is allowed. Open/Limited/L10 have no restrictions on holster placement. The only holster rules are that the holster must be attached to the belt and cover the trigger, the heel of the butt of the gun can't be below the top of the belt, and the muzzle can't point farther than 3 feet from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed. I shoot a decent number of USPSA matches and I can't remember ever seeing an AIWB holster. I've only seen any IWB holster two or three times.

[gtmtnbiker98]

IDPA is a joke, shooting by the numbers and concealment "our way."

[Mr_White]

Even though USPSA allows a form of appendix carry, you are not allowed to muzzle any part of your body. That pretty much precludes AIWB from USPSA.

Not my AIWB holster if I am standing.

Sitting, barely.

Drawing on the walk or run may cover a leg, depending on the direction of movement and which leg is moving forward at the exact moment the muzzle is covering that space, but that's no different from a strong side IWB or OWB.

[Mr_White]

Edit to respond to origamiAK: USPSA doesn't explicitly allow AIWB. It's just that USPSA's rules work the opposite way from IDPA: whatever is not prohibited is allowed. Open/Limited/L10 have no restrictions on holster placement. The only holster rules are that the holster must be attached to the belt and cover the trigger, the heel of the butt of the gun can't be below the top of the belt, and the muzzle can't point farther than 3 feet from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed. I shoot a decent number of USPSA matches and I can't remember ever seeing an AIWB holster. I've only seen any IWB holster two or three times.

jar,

Thank you for the info and perspective!

[JodyH]

I shoot a decent number of USPSA matches and I can't remember ever seeing an AIWB holster. I've only seen any IWB holster two or three times.
I see a AIWB at every USPSA match I go to.
All I gotta do is pull my T-shirt up and look down at it.
Never had a MD or RO give me a hard time, and I'm classified B Limited shooting concealed (one of my goals this year is A-Limited from concealed AIWB).

Here's a pic of me RO'ing a IPSC match, with all my gear on (P30 and 2 mags).

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/represent2.jpg

[m91196]

This is the truth. My favorite are the dudes with the floppy leather holsters that have to prop the holster open with their support hand while holstering.

I cant wait to be SO'ing when the first CDP Marksman with the Kimber AIWB hits my stage.....

[jetfire]

I cant wait to be SO'ing when the first CDP Marksman with the Kimber AIWB hits my stage.....

Which is why I don't think we'll realistically see AIWB in IDPA.

[jthhapkido]

I shoot a decent number of USPSA matches and I can't remember ever seeing an AIWB holster. I've only seen any IWB holster two or three times.


I see a AIWB at every USPSA match I go to.
All I gotta do is pull my T-shirt up and look down at it.
Never had a MD or RO give me a hard time, and I'm classified B Limited shooting concealed (one of my goals this year is A-Limited from concealed AIWB).


AIWB is perfectly legal, as people have stated, in Limited, L-10, and Open. However, most people (JodyH is most certainly not "most people") find that it is slower on the draw than open holsters (big surprise) and since USPSA is a sport all about competition, most people won't choose a holster that will slow them down. (For similar reasons, you will rarely see an IWB holster, though.)

Which is probably good, from a safety perspective. AIWB is not for everyone.

If I shot Limited, I would probably shoot AIWB at local matches every once in awhile, for fun. As I shoot Production, weirdly enough, I can't use my actual carry holster. :)

[JAD]

Safety aspect? That's a joke. I've seen more IDPA shooters trying to holster loaded pistols into thier rickity ass IWB colapsable holsters while pointing it directly into their bodies. I'd have DQ'd dozens of people every year if it wasn't allowed in the rules. It's ridiculous that AIWB isn't allowed for 'safety reasons' while these fat ass clowns are allowed to point loaded guns into themselves while trying to shove it in their crappy holsters.
-- Dude, where do I sign up to shoot at your IDPA club? You're all sunshine and unicorn giggles.

Srsly, IDPA is set up on several flawed premises. One of those, of course, is you can have competition without people trying really hard to win. That's nonsense, and good tactics won't win you matches, which means they wound up trying to legislate tactics, which is about as sound as Crazy Uncle Ron's foreign policy.

The second is that you can create a sport which is suitable for both tyros and ninjas. IDPA would be pretty cool if it was all training wheels all the time. Keep it slow, keep it safe, keep the round counts super low and the movement minimized, club and regional matches only, and you have a really good place for people to get into practical shooting and get to a certain moderate level of proficiency. What they should have done is made the rules so unappealing to the conspicuously competent that they just moved on to USPSA. They almost managed that, but of course it was set up by a bunch of ninjas, so there is room for ninjas to play, and there are national championships, and there are matching polos and guns you have to run to win and every other sort of nonsense. Shame, sort of, since nothing sucks people into the One True Way like a little practical shooting in a group.

[gringop]

My mistake on the covering of the lower body extremities in USPSA. I should do better research than just searching the pdf for "holsters." It's interesting that the rules allow it.

Re, "Fat Ass Clowns" in IDPA.

Ive SOed in IDPA for over 10 years. If I see unsafe gun handling, ie. muzzling themselves at any point with an unloaded weapon, I correct them immediately. If it is repeated or happens with a loaded weapon, then they are DQed then and there. If I give the new shooter meeting, I explicitly go over it. My MD supports me without a problem.

What IDPA rule indicates that you can't DQ a shooter who muzzles themselves with a loaded gun? This one seems tailor made to do just that.

"S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate
disqualification from the entire match.
Examples (but not limited to):
A. Endangering any person, including yourself."

Gringop (off to learn more about USPSA)

[jetfire]

I have flat out told people if they can't reholster with one hand, they need a new holster.

Also, EmanP shoots at many of the same clubs I shoot IDPA at, and he's not joking.

[EmanP]

Gringop, you're right, there is no where in the rulebook that allows it. I was wrong, I actually thought there was an exception spelled out, there is not. Maybe I'm getting it confused with something else. I've been 'made aware' on a few occasions that we don't want to DQ these individuals rather to educate them because it would not be in the best interest of the club. It would make people go out and spend money, give a bad name to the sport, bad mouth the club, be insulting to the individual, etc. Essentially to take it easy on them and the hope is they will go out and get a good holster, exercise, eat right, learn to work around their dificincies or some other imaginary thing. Either way, it's hypocritical, I know.


-- Dude, where do I sign up to shoot at your IDPA club? You're all sunshine and unicorn giggles.

That is funny! I've got a personal thing with this specific item so forgive me if I speak as openly as I actually think about it. We have quite a few morbidly obese people that chose to use really bad IWB holsters. Truthfully, even if they used a Kramer with a reinforced mouth, it probably wouldn't help. If they used a OWB, it would still be pushing out into their legs. So we've got quite a few people with subpar equipment and body issues that handicap their health. Now even the skinny folks with good quality equipment sometimes go jabbing their loaded pistols into their IWB's and go pointing it at themselves slightly but somehow that's ok? It's just way way more obvious with the first group. It's just one of those things that is shied over in IDPA as an allowance for IWB holsters. If we're honest about it, it happens and is tolerated way more often than it should.

[JAD]

That is funny! I've got a personal thing with this specific item so forgive me if I speak as openly as I actually think about it.
I'm right there with you. When I shot and SO'd IDPA a lot I really enjoyed working with new shooters, but it was definitely a high risk endeavor.

[jar]

What IDPA rule indicates that you can't DQ a shooter who muzzles themselves with a loaded gun? This one seems tailor made to do just that.

"S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate
disqualification from the entire match.
Examples (but not limited to):
A. Endangering any person, including yourself."

Gringop (off to learn more about USPSA)

It does, but USPSA's 10.5.6: "Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping)." (10.5 is a non-exclusive list of unsafe gun handling dqs). Having a black letter rule to point to avoids any argument that 'I didn't endanger myself, it wasn't loaded' or 'I didn't endanger myself, the safety was on', etc.

As you learn more about USPSA, you'll find that the rulebook is far more explicit than IDPA and requires much less interpretation on the part of the RO/SO. I've been a certified IDPA SO for about 4 years and have worked several major matches. I've been a certified RO is USPSA for almost a year, but have only worked a few club matches so far.

(FYI, the current USPSA handgun rules are here: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf)

[joshs]

What IDPA rule indicates that you can't DQ a shooter who muzzles themselves with a loaded gun? This one seems tailor made to do just that.

What holsters don't require the shooter to sweep the lower extremities when holstering? If you need proof that even OWB holster generally have the muzzle pointed at the shooter's leg, look at what happens when there is an ND while drawing/holstering. The shooter is generally hit somewhere in the lower extremities. If you are DQing people because they muzzle their lower extremities more than average, then this seems like a very subjective determination made by the RO, but it is IDPA.


It does, but USPSA's 10.5.6: "Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping)." (10.5 is a non-exclusive list of unsafe gun handling dqs). Having a black letter rule to point to avoids any argument that 'I didn't endanger myself, it wasn't loaded' or 'I didn't endanger myself, the safety was on', etc.

Just to be clear, as was already pointed out, that rule doesn't apply to sweeping the lower extremities while drawing/holstering. This exception reads as follows:

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns.

[gringop]

What holsters don't require the shooter to sweep the lower extremities when holstering? If you need proof that even OWB holster generally have the muzzle pointed at the shooter's leg, look at what happens when there is an ND while drawing/holstering. The shooter is generally hit somewhere in the lower extremities. If you are DQing people because they muzzle their lower extremities more than average, then this seems like a very subjective determination made by the RO, but it is IDPA.


Let see, my Sparks Exec Companion has the muzzle pointing back and away from my body and legs. When I draw the gun comes straight out, muzzle on the same plane, and then pivots forward on the press out. Most OWB holsters do the same. I guess you could say that the muzzle comes close to covering my legs but I make it a point to make sure it doesn't. I guess if I took a "Wide Stance" I could easily sweep my leg but I don't stand that way.

My comments about DQing shooters for muzzling their bodies refer to shooters with floppy holsters who point the muzzle far inwards in an attempt to dig open the holster mouth. The same thing goes for shooters holding the flaps open with the support hand then sweeping the muzzle straight over the support hand. It's just as easy to bring the gun down a bit outboard and bring it into the holster without sweeping any part of the body.

For seated starts, I warn the squad that if they cross their leg with the muzzle then they will get a DQ. Everyone arranges their body in the chair to account for this and shoots safely.

For seated starts in USPSA, isn't it the same thing? Are ROs able to see if the finger is on the trigger during those sub-one second draws when the gun has cleared the holster but is still muzzling the leg?

Gringop

[joshs]

For seated starts in USPSA, isn't it the same thing? Are ROs able to see if the finger is on the trigger during those sub-one second draws when the gun has cleared the holster but is still muzzling the leg?

To DQ someone in USPSA you have to see the disqualifying conduct. So, unless you can see the that the shooter's finger is inside the trigger guard during the draw, you shouldn't disqualify him, if he sweeps his lower extremities.

[secondstoryguy]

So basically you guys are saying it's dicy if you want to shoot a USPSA match running AIWB? I've been thinking about doing it but I've chickened out due to the possibility of being DQ'ed before I even start.

[joshs]

So basically you guys are saying it's dicy if you want to shoot a USPSA match running AIWB? I've been thinking about doing it but I've chickened out due to the possibility of being DQ'ed before I even start.

There should be no "dicey" in USPSA because the rules are written to be objective. As long as you are shooting Open, Limited, or L10, AIWB is legal. If you are worried about it, contact the Match Director before signing up for the match.

[ToddG]

I received (second hand) an email from John Amidon specifically saying that aiwb was legal so long as it did not violate any other specific rule.