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Dagga Boy
08-12-2017, 07:24 AM
Can we please stop and have a common sense reality check for a moment on this stuff.

Here comes some truth bombs. Human beings can screw up with any trigger system. Multiple violations of safety rules, unsafe practices, and pure human stupidity will win the day here every time. We simply cannot over engineer out stupid. What we can do is put some things in place to mitigate risk in line with how many of these guns are employed in a stress filled crisis situation. Shooting sports...whatever works, don't really care at this point. Operation of firearms in a home or in public, that is my focus.

Triggers....interesting little things that initiate the shot in a handgun. We at some point need to be on it to finish a lethal force decision, that is the simple part. The complexity is when we start pouring in a bunch of other factors. Certain trigger systems will be a hardware solution to fix different portions of the equation.

First....I have been in two shootings with shotguns, and one with a DA Pistol. I have been in multiple incidents where a lethal force decision was made and part way through the trigger press the situation changed and that press stopped. Those have been done with most of the action types we normally discuss.

Want to know my perception of trigger weight....nothing drastic between any of them. What is perceptible is trigger movement. The way time is warped in your mind during a crisis, some of those trigger presses on DA guns (Revolver or auto) feel like they take forever, and most of my "stops" during the press involved those types of triggers. The shotguns, with essentially a short single action, just go off after almost imperceptible movement. This is neither "good" nor "bad", but can be either dependent on the situation.

The biggest added benefit to a DA or LEM is that when your visual acuity spikes (found this in every case), you get both a tactile and visual confirmation that you are in fact getting ready to fire. You can literally see your trigger press and in near slow motion. I find this to be a positive from a purely people management and use of force scenario.

What I look for in a striker gun is predictable movement of that trigger because I can't see it or really get a weight feel. My Glocks have been set up for more take up than stock (but using all stock components and factory trigger weights). A huge reason I love the VP9 is that the trigger is super predictable to me in feel. Others find other guns work for them, which is just fine. Some guns have very little movement to get them to go bang. I like "shooting" these, not so sure as a very fallible human being that l like them for managing a dynamic force problem. Another thing these combinations of trigger types can do is mitigate some risk. With a DA weapon, I can look at the gun and immediately assess some things about its condition. Obviously if the hammer is cocked, I have some additional concerns. With a striker gun, you don't actually have much of a clue until you physically put hands on that gun. From an instructor'sstandpoint, I also get some of that visual feedback as well.

Other factors that start coming into play on mitigating stupid is a hammer. Can you holster a non-decocked gun with a finger in a trigger and have the exact same issues as holstering a striker gun with a finger on the trigger...absolutely. What changes the dynamic is you have a visual indicator that you have not decocked, and if taught properly to holster with a thumb on the back of the hammer, you get a tactile indication of an issue, combined with a trigger that is pretty easy to feel that it is in contact and moving if you holster with your finger still on the trigger. This is where solid mixing of hardware and software in training come into play. We can impart some checks into the training to help mitigate stress mistakes.

A Gadget will also help this when added on to some striker platforms. Can anyone get a finger on a trigger early....very much yes. Do we have more indicators to the shooter making that mistake with a DA or LEM gun, yes. Both in tactile movement and visual indicator of the hammer. Same with draw stroke early finger insertions...obviously, a couple triggers are more forgiving of this. You can never depend on a trigger to stop negligent discharges. Triggers don't stop ND's. The problem has been with police administrators, misguided trainers and other "experts" who have come to this conclusion.

What triggers can do is WITH PROPER REPETITIVE TRAINING is to help the operator of the firearm know they have made a mistake before the consequences hit. That is a proper loading and training with software to operate the hardware. Improper software training results in misuse of hardware (not de-cocking every time the muzzle comes off target, cocking hammers, early trigger prepping, thumb cocking, etc). Misuse is a major issue with ANY system. I find it funny that folks like myself and others who have some extensive experience in a high stress environments making complex force decisions on a daily basis over decades find ourselves capable of making mistakes and like some layers in place to have our chosen firearms to be a bit forgiving of those mistakes. Yet, many who the scariest thing they have ever done is come home and mom forgot to leave the porch light on discount this stuff as much ado about nothing, and retort with my favorite pre cursor to an expert opinion of "what I would do is".

Overall, we can safely and efficiently operate all kinds of triggers. We can screw up all kinds of triggers. What I have found is that the triggers that are often a bit harder to master and shoot well, are also the triggers that are a bit more forgiving of mistakes. They do not mitigate mistakes, just are more forgiving. Just like a great trigger is not a guarantee of great shooting, they are just more forgiving of trigger press errors on the marksmanship side.

GardoneVT
08-12-2017, 07:44 AM
A .5lb striker fired trigger is perfectly safe so long as I follow Rule #2 with 100% accuracy for the rest of my natural life.

Shouldn't be a problem. :D

Jared
08-12-2017, 08:36 AM
Really good common sense explanation of the whole situation. Marry this post with the LEM street trigger one and there's a really nice short essay on the topic that ought to be required reading.

Wondering Beard
08-12-2017, 09:06 AM
Lots of stuff to think about here. Thank you DB.

For me, the two following quotes are very central to the whole discussion:


Improper software training results in misuse of hardware


What I have found is that the triggers that are often a bit harder to master and shoot well, are also the triggers that are a bit more forgiving of mistakes. They do not mitigate mistakes, just are more forgiving. Just like a great trigger is not a guarantee of great shooting, they are just more forgiving of trigger press errors on the marksmanship side.

P.S. when I handled the P30 with LEM (I think V1 from the factory) at my LGS about a year ago, while I liked it, all it felt like was long but with less weight to pull through than my stock Glocks and less pressure back to get to reset. While I didn't shoot the gun (and thus don't really know for sure), the LEM on that gun felt actually easier to shoot than the stock trigger on my Glock (all of mine have stock triggers) with its noticeable take up and stacking break. Maybe it's just an individual difference.

Trukinjp13
08-12-2017, 09:11 AM
Thank you for this. I am going to pass this along to some of my friends. I go through these discussions quite a bit. Having someone who can clearly establish the point. Who has had to implement said features into real life. Who can say why something helped or hindered more then another is great. My carry selection and thought process has changed a lot since I joined this forum. Between guys like you and Todd. It has really opened my eyes on what should really be focused on when selecting a carry gun. I appreciate your contributions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi-Point Aficionado
08-12-2017, 09:26 AM
Sadly, my father recently had to make some decisions about triggers. Hand tremors are now a constant part of his life and he was becoming decreasingly confident in his ability to manage a striker trigger. Liking my LEM converted USP compacts, he asked if I'd trade my secondary for his G19. It's his now and he later showed up with a thumb safety and request that I install it. He also wanted a conscious switch between a holstered and firing state. Considering his trigger finger won't stop moving, I can't fault his logic. Long travel and a positive safety seem tailor made for a person in his condition.

Anyway, thanks a ton for the OP. I genuinely appreciate a solid resource to point people to for a very well thought out comparison of the strengths of various trigger systems.

farscott
08-12-2017, 09:45 AM
[snip]

Overall, we can safely and efficiently operate all kinds of triggers. We can screw up all kinds of triggers. What I have found is that the triggers that are often a bit harder to master and shoot well, are also the triggers that are a bit more forgiving of mistakes. They do not mitigate mistakes, just are more forgiving. Just like a great trigger is not a guarantee of great shooting, they are just more forgiving of trigger press errors on the marksmanship side.

The above snippet is pretty much where I have decided to land my choice of pistol. I am much more likely to make an error with a pistol than to need the absolute best trigger feel/press, so I bias my pistol and training choices to error mitigation. I am very unlikely to need to fire my pistol today, but I will certainly holster it (already did) and draw it once (when the holster comes off of me) today. So guns that allow me some extra margin of safety for those actions I perform every day are of value to me.

I am currently working with three pistols now: 1) The P30 LEM, 2) the Gadget-equipped G26, and 3) the S&W M&P Shield. Two of those guns have features that let me know if the trigger is fouled when the pistol is going into the holster. One does not. The one that does not is the pistol that does not leave the property. The P30 LEM is my main carry pistol while the G26 is used for NPE carry.

Beat Trash
08-12-2017, 10:50 AM
Can we please stop and have a common sense reality check for a moment on this stuff.

Here comes some truth bombs. Human beings can screw up with any trigger system.


Overall, we can safely and efficiently operate all kinds of triggers. We can screw up all kinds of triggers. What I have found is that the triggers that are often a bit harder to master and shoot well, are also the triggers that are a bit more forgiving of mistakes. They do not mitigate mistakes, just are more forgiving. Just like a great trigger is not a guarantee of great shooting, they are just more forgiving of trigger press errors on the marksmanship side.

I agree with what you're saying. I've been issued a DA/SA, a DAO and a striker fired pistol over the years.

I think it needs to be about balance. A balance between a trigger system that permits one to put rounds on target under stress but yet is still a decent threat management tool.

Shoot ability combined with safety...

The trigger also needs to be safe if dropped or gets banged into. I have dropped pistols while at work. I have had my holstered pistol banged into brick walls, pavement, ect. when struggling with suspects.

While I understand what you are saying in your post. My question though would be, do you feel that the firearms industry, driven by the gun buying market, is trying to fix a software problem with a hardware solution in the form of lighter striker fired triggers?

Dagga Boy
08-12-2017, 11:22 AM
I absolutely believe the entire market right now is really about "buying performance". Let's face facts....triggers that are easier to manipulate with the least chance of moving the sights can help mitigate errors in pressing a trigger without disturbing the sights. Todd Green started the ball rolling on showing that you could shoot a not so easy trigger well with the LEM. I think it gave many a bit of a false hope. You can do really solid work with more difficult to manage triggers, but that requires some dedicated training and training with folks who understand them. A vast majority of firearms consumers have no interest in putting in solid, dedicated work with professional experienced instructors. USPSA and high level tactical training classes are absolute outliers. Go to a public indoor shooting range....look around......THOSE are the "serious shooters", and it is fairly pathetic. Then there is the buy and ogle crowd, which is normal. We live ina world dominated by buying performance rather than working hard for it. It is simply the way we are evolving with technology and how people perceive hard work. The gun industry as a whole is selling a whole lot of viagra and boob jobs. There is an entire "Call of Duty" generation that really believes if you buy a tricked out AR.....you are DeltaNinjaSEAL Devteam17. Same with pistols, buy a Striker gun with lots of mill work, colors, and enhanced triggers, and you are a cross between Rob Leatham and Chris Costa. I am not saying this is good or bad, as I should not be judging it from a pure business model. As a purist of my craft....much of it disgusts me. As a red blooded capitalistic American, I am all for the Zombie slayer 5000 and whatever needs to be done to sell. I would like it to at least be mechanically safe, but if it sells.....Well, ...' Murica.

El Cid
08-12-2017, 01:51 PM
I absolutely believe the entire market right now is really about "buying performance". Let's face facts....triggers that are easier to manipulate with the least chance of moving the sights can help mitigate errors in pressing a trigger without disturbing the sights. Todd Green started the ball rolling on showing that you could shoot a not so easy trigger well with the LEM. I think it gave many a bit of a false hope. You can do really solid work with more difficult to manage triggers, but that requires some dedicated training and training with folks who understand them. A vast majority of firearms consumers have no interest in putting in solid, dedicated work with professional experienced instructors. USPSA and high level tactical training classes are absolute outliers. Go to a public indoor shooting range....look around......THOSE are the "serious shooters", and it is fairly pathetic. Then there is the buy and ogle crowd, which is normal. We live ina world dominated by buying performance rather than working hard for it. It is simply the way we are evolving with technology and how people perceive hard work. The gun industry as a whole is selling a whole lot of viagra and boob jobs. There is an entire "Call of Duty" generation that really believes if you buy a tricked out AR.....you are DeltaNinjaSEAL Devteam17. Same with pistols, buy a Striker gun with lots of mill work, colors, and enhanced triggers, and you are a cross between Rob Leatham and Chris Costa. I am not saying this is good or bad, as I should not be judging it from a pure business model. As a purist of my craft....much of it disgusts me. As a red blooded capitalistic American, I am all for the Zombie slayer 5000 and whatever needs to be done to sell. I would like it to at least be mechanically safe, but if it sells.....Well, ...' Murica.

Well said. I'm not a grand master level shooter, but few things in the shooting realm give me more pleasure than smoking another competitor who has attempted to buy performance but lacks the fundamentals, while I shoot a stock Glock, using a concealment holster, from concealment.

With your years of training have you seen where the upper end of the trigger issue is? I ask because we see poor marksmanship in NYPD shootings and many attribute that to their NY trigger. The first time I felt a NY trigger was in an armorer class and I remember thinking it was horrible and does more harm than good.

EVP
08-12-2017, 01:59 PM
Excellent points DB.

I keep finding myself gravitating to LEM for carry guns. A quality Da/Sa would fit that same category.

I mean "easy shootability" is not one of the top considerations for me when choosing a defensive gun.

lordhamster
08-12-2017, 02:07 PM
A .5lb striker fired trigger is perfectly safe so long as I follow Rule #2 with 100% accuracy for the rest of my natural life.

Shouldn't be a problem. :D

Provided it isn't a Sig P320 you drop it.

Dagga Boy
08-12-2017, 02:19 PM
Well said. I'm not a grand master level shooter, but few things in the shooting realm give me more pleasure than smoking another competitor who has attempted to buy performance but lacks the fundamentals, while I shoot a stock Glock, using a concealment holster, from concealment.

With your years of training have you seen where the upper end of the trigger issue is? I ask because we see poor marksmanship in NYPD shootings and many attribute that to their NY trigger. The first time I felt a NY trigger was in an armorer class and I remember thinking it was horrible and does more harm than good.

A very influential mentor who is one of the most successful gunfighters of our era told me "all I need is a good trigger, sights I can see, and total reliability". I have several of his duty guns. They all have a good trigger, which doesn't mean light. It also doesn't mean heavy. You can make a trigger so heavy that you have to build way too much momentum in it just to get it moving. I find they encourage cheating the triggers and will end up creating as many issues as they are "supposed" to solve. You need to be able to press the trigger efficiently with minimal disturbance of the sights. You can ruin that with a terrible trigger. So, crappy, and overly heavy triggers are also an issue. Also, much of this is about safety. Every Round fired hits something. In a defensive shooting shooting it is critical that rounds connect with bad guys efficiently. Missing due to an unmanageable trigger is in the "bad" column.

JonInWA
08-12-2017, 04:18 PM
Well said. I'm not a grand master level shooter, but few things in the shooting realm give me more pleasure than smoking another competitor who has attempted to buy performance but lacks the fundamentals, while I shoot a stock Glock, using a concealment holster, from concealment.

With your years of training have you seen where the upper end of the trigger issue is? I ask because we see poor marksmanship in NYPD shootings and many attribute that to their NY trigger. The first time I felt a NY trigger was in an armorer class and I remember thinking it was horrible and does more harm than good.

In my opinion, an NY1 or NY2 won't mitigate against "stupid" or untrained. For that matter, not much of anything will. And even with the NY2, you're still only looking at about a 8 lb triggerpull as I recall.

I've used all of the Glock OEM trigger systems, and think that the best benefit attributable to the NY1 is that it provides a single-stage, consistently even triggerpull with a more discernible reset point then the coil trigger return spring does. But that said, not all of my Glocks get a NY anything-for example, my Gen 3 G17 and Gen4 G22 retain the OEM stock trigger/connector/spring set-ups, because they feel great on them just as they are.

I usually pair a NY spring with a minus or dot connector; the combination usually results in a slightly heavier triggerpull weight than that on the standard connector/coil spring set-up.

With a NY2 (and a dot connector) I liked it initially-more of a double-action revolver kinda feel. But the increased triggerpull weight quickly took its toll in accuracy and speed, so I'm not longer using that set-up. I think a NY1 is more ideal for most desiring of the NY effect/benefits.

I've also found that individual Glocks have slightly individual action feels; I suspect this has much to do with minor variations in connectors, so I experiment with each of my Glocks to "tune" the triggerpull. I use ONLY OEM Glock components and high-tech lube in my Glocks-no aftermarket parts at all (except for sights and butt plugs), and no Dremeling whatsoever on anything.

And a key, unsung component of ANY Glock trigger set-up is proper lubrication on the triggerbar/connector interface surfaces

Best, Jon

45dotACP
08-12-2017, 06:57 PM
Some serious truth bombs getting dropped by some really switched on dudes lately...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

JHC
08-12-2017, 07:24 PM
And I believe these issues overlay across the marksmanship requirement to hit a grapefruit sized target, which may be moving.

breakingtime91
08-12-2017, 07:28 PM
And I believe these issues overlay across the marksmanship requirement to hit a grapefruit sized target, which may be moving.

I feel like majority of peoples goals here are to find a balance between safety of the firearm and the ability you just described. Reason the Glock is so popular (even more now with people around here because the SCD) is it offers that balance. I understand that DA/SA is a great system but a lot of people/organizations simply don't want to invest the time to master that system and they find a solid compromise in SFA. With all of that said, I like heavier triggers, stock set ups, and only carry well vetted guns (M9 variants and Glock are extremely reliable and safe designs.)

JHC
08-12-2017, 07:36 PM
I feel like majority of peoples goals here are to find a balance between safety of the firearm and the ability you just described. Reason the Glock is so popular (even more now with people around here because the SCD) is it offers that balance. I understand that DA/SA is a great system but a lot of people/organizations simply don't want to invest the time to master that system and they find a solid compromise in SFA. With all of that said, I like heavier triggers, stock set ups, and only carry well vetted guns (M9 variants and Glock are extremely reliable and safe designs.)

Did you see the bodycam footage of the Vegas shootout this week? LEO with a Sig TDA is wounded, backpedaling and got a bunch of hits incl a headshot FAST. REALLY FAST.
For a good bit of post shooting thread management, that Sig was not decocked (in frame of vid).

breakingtime91
08-12-2017, 07:38 PM
Did you see the bodycam footage of the Vegas shootout this week? LEO with a Sig TDA is wounded, backpedaling and got a bunch of hits incl a headshot FAST. REALLY FAST.
For a good bit of post shooting thread management, that Sig was not decocked (in frame of vid).

Yup.. Looked like he holstered it in SA also.

DocGKR
08-12-2017, 10:58 PM
DB--that is one of the best posts I have read at PF!

rdtompki
08-12-2017, 11:14 PM
Definitely a sticky thread. I don't shoot my P2000 9mm LEM as well as my 9mm 1911 competition gun, but as a civilian I'm more than accurate enough at speed to defend myself; the trigger is a non-issue. What is an issue is my need to train more to improve my P2000 wiring. At SD/HD distances it won't be the trigger that induces error, but other operator errors under stress (at least that's where I'm at).

LockedBreech
08-13-2017, 12:48 AM
Sadly, my father recently had to make some decisions about triggers. Hand tremors are now a constant part of his life and he was becoming decreasingly confident in his ability to manage a striker trigger. Liking my LEM converted USP compacts, he asked if I'd trade my secondary for his G19. It's his now and he later showed up with a thumb safety and request that I install it. He also wanted a conscious switch between a holstered and firing state. Considering his trigger finger won't stop moving, I can't fault his logic. Long travel and a positive safety seem tailor made for a person in his condition.

Anyway, thanks a ton for the OP. I genuinely appreciate a solid resource to point people to for a very well thought out comparison of the strengths of various trigger systems.

My dad carries a revolver for this reason. His hand trembles a bit and you have to WANT to pull a DA revolver trigger.

Inspector71
08-13-2017, 02:26 AM
Wow, all these threads concerning triggers for threat management are interesting. Maybe the double action revolver system really was ahead of its time. In the past I've talked to some coppers who changed their mind half way thru a DA pull on their wheel guns, relaxed their finger, and ultimately did not have to drop the hammer on a bad guy.

DocGKR
08-13-2017, 11:40 AM
Long ago I was pulling the trigger on my 4566 and could simultaneously see the hammer coming back in my peripheral vision, when the suspect dropped their weapon and the threat ceased--that long DA pull to the first shot definitely was a factor in how that incident resolved....

Beat Trash
08-13-2017, 12:04 PM
Long ago I was pulling the trigger on my 4566 and could simultaneously see the hammer coming back in my peripheral vision, when the suspect dropped their weapon and the threat ceased--that long DA pull to the first shot definitely was a factor in how that incident resolved....

I had a very similar experience with an issued 5946 DAO pistol.

LittleLebowski
08-13-2017, 12:34 PM
DB, I broke up your excellent first post a bit, in order to do it justice. Let me know if it needs changed.

breakingtime91
08-13-2017, 12:35 PM
Long ago I was pulling the trigger on my 4566 and could simultaneously see the hammer coming back in my peripheral vision, when the suspect dropped their weapon and the threat ceased--that long DA pull to the first shot definitely was a factor in how that incident resolved....

Does that mean your moving back to hammer fired guns?

LittleLebowski
08-13-2017, 01:27 PM
Does that mean your moving back to hammer fired guns?

I doubt it, DocGKR deals with some quite draconian duty weapon restrictions.

DocGKR
08-13-2017, 06:26 PM
Nope. At this age in life and career stage, it is highly unlikely that I would ever serve in a uniformed patrol capacity again, so a DA/SA or DAO handgun is less important than having a compact, lightweight, simple to service, easily carried firearm with an acceptable magazine capacity and ability to mount an RDS.

breakingtime91
08-13-2017, 06:38 PM
Nope. At this age in life and career stage, it is highly unlikely that I would ever serve in a uniformed patrol capacity again, so a DA/SA or DAO handgun is less important than having a compact, lightweight, simple to service, easily carried firearm with an acceptable magazine capacity and ability to mount an RDS.

Thanks for clarifying Doc.

Dagga Boy
08-13-2017, 07:09 PM
DB, I broke up your excellent first post a bit, in order to do it justice. Let me know if it needs changed.

I was just typing thoughts and didn't realize how much traction it would get. Thanks for cleaning it up. I will actually be doing an article for Lucky Gunner on the subject of triggers.

LSP552
08-14-2017, 09:17 AM
Such an outstanding post Darryl! And spot on.

hufnagel
10-05-2017, 10:46 AM
Pushing this one also, for the same reason as the other trigger thread.

1986s4
10-05-2017, 04:31 PM
DB, agree with everything you said. I'm not a gunfighter, never carried in harms way. I have some military experience but for real firearms training I had to seek it myself, I wasn't the tip of the spear, more like the grip tape on the handle..
I made the decision some time ago that I wanted a margin of safety, call it mistake room if you will. When I drove [ever so briefly] for a well know ride share co. I carried. My plan was to leave, un ass from the car, only if hostile tried to stop me would I draw. My S&W M13 3" fit the bill.

Erick Gelhaus
10-06-2017, 07:17 PM
Missed this the first go'round DB. Thank you for articulating it this way.

scjbash
10-06-2017, 11:03 PM
DB, the views you've shared on triggers in various discussions started me down a path of questioning what I was doing and led to some changes over the last couple years. I still carry M&Ps but I'm no longer using aftermarket parts in an attempt to have a 1911 trigger in a Tupperware gun. I've grown to like the long and occasionally snaggy take up in the stock trigger, and I've seen no difference in how I shoot them. Actually that's not true as I've seen an improvement since I quit worrying about how "good" a trigger is and started focusing more on how I manipulate it.

Bodhi
10-07-2017, 12:27 PM
Great OP and thread. Excellent discussion of the +’s of TDA. Refreshing to read given the market and the kids game “Operation.”

PNWTO
10-24-2017, 04:09 PM
Fantastic thread. This and some previous conversations here regarding TDA and/or LEM guns has really got me thinking. I handled the first ever LEM gun I have ever seen during lunch, a P2000, and I liked it. Different, for sure, but it didn't seem so bad. Trigger pull after the take up was heavy, probably in excess of 6# but I know there are many combos for the HK line.

Eastex
10-24-2017, 09:05 PM
I love my J frame and its trigger but there are times I wish there was something with a little more capacity and a TDA trigger. I know Sig has the 239 and that there are a bunch of tiny .380s out there with abusive triggers and bad ergonomics. What I wish is that someone would make a single stack TDA in either .380 or preferably 9mm that fit somewhere around the SigP238 and Glock 43 size and weight category.


"Hell bent on being intentionally anachronistic"

OlongJohnson
10-24-2017, 09:26 PM
Third-gen S&W 39xx series are pretty close to that, only a little bigger and a little heavy. Still very slim in the slide, especially if you get the 3953 without warts.

Bucky
10-25-2017, 05:31 AM
I love my J frame and its trigger but there are times I wish there was something with a little more capacity and a TDA trigger. I know Sig has the 239 and that there are a bunch of tiny .380s out there with abusive triggers and bad ergonomics. What I wish is that someone would make a single stack TDA in either .380 or preferably 9mm that fit somewhere around the SigP238 and Glock 43 size and weight category.


Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

http://www.springfield-armory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/XDE9339B_Flush_L_2.jpg

spinmove_
10-25-2017, 07:30 AM
Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

http://www.springfield-armory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/XDE9339B_Flush_L_2.jpg

Iíd say the XDe is M&P Shield sized, but yeah, itís as close as youíre going to get in that size range. Using the safety/decocker on that pistol is a little wonky in my opinion, but then again, thatís true for any pistol that size or smaller with a safety/decocker. At least in my hands. Handguns that size and smaller I prefer to have DAO simply because the extra lever to make them anything but that gets to be a wonky and problematic annoyance.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Mark D
10-25-2017, 11:53 AM
I agreed with everything stated by DB. I've always been a fan of hammer-fired pistols for all of the reasons mentioned. Todd's articles about TDA are what originally led me to PF. And DB's "street trigger" thread is what led me to the LEM.

However, the problem I've encountered is that the LEM (and TDA) can be truly challenging to shoot well. On my P2000 with a factory "light LEM" trigger, I've invested 4000 rounds and a ton of dry fire, and I still suck with it compared to striker fired pistols.

(For background, Iím not a soul-stealer from Delta Team 6, or a USPSA GM. However, Iím not a complete Bubba either. Iíve attended several decent to good pistol courses, and have read aggressively Ė from Enos to ToddG, to Stoeger).

As a non-leo, my need to manage people at gunpoint is virtually nonexistent. However, if I do employ my pistol "for realz" I will need to make good hits and minimize errant rounds. And thatís what drove my recent decision to switch back to Glock as my primary carry gun. (Stock Glock trigger only). I simply shoot the Glock more accurately than my P2000 with light LEM, despite 6 months of dedicated, deliberate practice with the HK.

I often think of DBís analogy comparing striker-fired guns to rattlesnakes. I agree. And I think I can safely handle rattlesnakes with my current training regime. If circumstances change, and I get too busy for daily dryfire and frequent live fire, Iíll relinquish the Glock for a trigger system with an extra margin of safety.

Les Pepperoni
10-25-2017, 12:11 PM
Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

http://www.springfield-armory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/XDE9339B_Flush_L_2.jpg

So... I won one of these at USPSA Nationals this year.

I just picked it up from my FFL yesterday:

Bigger than I expected. Certainly bigger than my Kahr PM9.
Grip is slippery. For as flat as it is, it certainly fits the hand nicely.

The trigger isn't bad... DA was reasonable out of the box and the SA is fairly light. Certainly workable.
Decocker is a safety/decock that requires a small grip shift to get leverage on it.
Riding the safety hard could engage the decoker and render the trigger inert... (Just point it out, not saying it is realistic)

Sights are decent. FO front sight with 2-dot rear sight (white paint).

My specimen has a small hitch: press the mag release and it "sticks". Positive ejection of empty magazines.

Shrugs... Back in the safe it goes, never to see the light of day...

LangdonTactical
10-25-2017, 02:38 PM
Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

http://www.springfield-armory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/XDE9339B_Flush_L_2.jpg

Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!? I mean WTF, here we have a brand new gun, and the sides are slick as they can be. Have any of these engineers (and I am not talking about Springfield here, all of the manufactures are included here) ever fired a handgun? That area that says "Grip Zone" should be covered up with texture all the way to the slide stop!!!

But then I talked to the guy at Beretta that wanted to make the side of the PX4 like nonskid tape and got shot down cuz it did not look nice. Don't mind me, I will just be over here pulling my hair out!!!

flyrodr
10-25-2017, 04:22 PM
Quite a few years ago, I attended an LAV course where he ran a drill to convince us that the trigger press was much more important to shooting well than was sight alignment. It was the drill where (using B8 repair centers) you shoot one shot with the front sight way to the right, one with it way left, then way high and finally way low. If you press the trigger smoothly each shot, none is all that far off center. Great drill, but it didn't really impress me all that much at the time, as I was shooting a 1911 with a really nice trigger. A couple of years ago, DB's writings made me realize that a more "deliberate" trigger mechanism was probably a better idea for a carry gun. Thus a foray into LEM triggers began. I actually liked them, adjusted pretty quickly, and accepted that multiple shots were slower than with a 1911-type trigger, and that that was a pretty good thing for an older guy. The LEMs did make me "think" more about keeping the sights aligned during the longer trigger press. Then, earlier this year, I attended an EL class (shooting my LEM) and became interested in developing some basic level of competence with a DA/SA trigger; that was when the earlier LAV lesson really hit home. That a jerky pull that releases a 3 1/2 - 4 lb trigger, or even a longish 5-lb LEM trigger, isn't nearly as problematic as is a jerky pull needed to release an 8-lb+ DA trigger. And working on the DA to SA transition requires even more focus on keeping the sights aligned by making smooth strokes of the trigger. So while I'm still not as competent/comfortable with the DA/SA transition as I am with the LEM (but working on it), I'm pretty doggone sure I'm better equipped, if ever a "real" situation confronts me, to make that split second go - no go decision with either of those triggers than with a striker-fired or 1911 trigger.

As others have said, many thanks to DB, EL and all the other SMEs that contribute regularly to P-F and help educate us regular folks.

Trooper224
10-26-2017, 12:59 AM
Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!?

Because, you gotta have somewhere to put "Grip Zone!" Jeez.

hufnagel
10-26-2017, 06:56 AM
Because, you gotta have somewhere to put "Grip Zone!" Jeez.

Because no one has figured out how to make texturing look sexy.

Dagga Boy
10-26-2017, 07:44 AM
I agreed with everything stated by DB. I've always been a fan of hammer-fired pistols for all of the reasons mentioned. Todd's articles about TDA are what originally led me to PF. And DB's "street trigger" thread is what led me to the LEM.

However, the problem I've encountered is that the LEM (and TDA) can be truly challenging to shoot well. On my P2000 with a factory "light LEM" trigger, I've invested 4000 rounds and a ton of dry fire, and I still suck with it compared to striker fired pistols.

(For background, I¬ím not a soul-stealer from Delta Team 6, or a USPSA GM. However, I¬ím not a complete Bubba either. I¬íve attended several decent to good pistol courses, and have read aggressively ¬Ė from Enos to ToddG, to Stoeger).

As a non-leo, my need to manage people at gunpoint is virtually nonexistent. However, if I do employ my pistol "for realz" I will need to make good hits and minimize errant rounds. And that’s what drove my recent decision to switch back to Glock as my primary carry gun. (Stock Glock trigger only). I simply shoot the Glock more accurately than my P2000 with light LEM, despite 6 months of dedicated, deliberate practice with the HK.

I often think of DB’s analogy comparing striker-fired guns to rattlesnakes. I agree. And I think I can safely handle rattlesnakes with my current training regime. If circumstances change, and I get too busy for daily dryfire and frequent live fire, I’ll relinquish the Glock for a trigger system with an extra margin of safety.

I would simply add a warning to this. I would never want to tell someone what kind of trigger to use, I simply try to educate folks on the positives and negatives of the various systems so they can make an informed decision.

Part of that post stood out as one of those things people think but is often not the case. People at gun point or presenting a firearm into a situation that is not yet a full deadly force situation, but is headed there. Being ahead of the curve on bringing more faster is what dominates fights. If there was one take away from every really successful gunfighter I have ever talked to in my decades of study of how to win gunfights was have a gun in your hand before the fight starts. This takes managing people with guns to a serious level for everyone, not just cops. Cops have two huge benefits here. They do it often and build experience, and they get a ton of leeway in. Doing it because they are often using handguns in an offensive role. So, for non-LE who don't think they will need this skill set, I would add a huge caution. I have been in far more off duty/retired incidents than I should. I don't know how I am passing the "that looks like a victim Test" in several cases. Combine that with my black cloud of crap luck that follows me like a shadow, and I have pulled the "it's your day" card way too often. I have been in exactly Zero off duty shootings in which I am basically an armed citizen. This includes stopping multiple robberies. My ability to get ahead of those incidents was the key. Not a single one was a draw to a shot, but every single incident could have been if I was behind the situational awareness curve or the tactics curve that included the ability to deploy a pistol, or at least have it accesable before the shooting part started. The guns I have used in those incidents run the gamut from a J frame to Glocks, to a MARS Armament custom Thug 1911. So this isn't a 100% gun dependent, but it is 100% dependent on your ability to handle what gun you have chosen to carry without making a trigger finger mistake. I have some horrible habits for "shooting" that are great for managing a force incident. I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger. Hurts shooting for speed, great for not shooting the wrong folks or when it is not fully justified. Most accomplished gunfighter I know does the exact same thing. That allows a bunch of room for me with any system. For those who practice to a sub conscious level of drawing and placing a finger on the trigger to start the press or remove slack on the presentation......I hope you are good. Again, great for shooting and I know a bunch of folks who are true experts and have absolutely mastered this skill.....they are not the norm.

Redhat
10-26-2017, 09:19 AM
Excellent points. I would suspect most training involves drawing followed automatically by shooting...hardly anyone is practicing drawing and assessing (not shooting). In the civilian CCW world might that present legal problems?

holmes168
10-26-2017, 09:29 AM
I found DB's comments to be outstanding- specifically about drawing to an index. On another thread about whether to go on safe or not, I mentioned about training to put a M4 on safe so much that I couldn't imagine not doing it.
During dry fire- I've focused on pulling the trigger quickly, in order to try to go fast- it becomes automatic.
Could it become so automatic that I make a mistake in a ccw incident?

BN
10-26-2017, 09:34 AM
I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger.

This is good. I'm going to start practicing this.

JodyH
10-26-2017, 10:00 AM
I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger.
I do this as well.
I also primarily do "Non Standard Responses" (NSR), and randomly vary the number and placement of shots on every draw.
I try to stay out of the 2 A's per draw rut that is easy to fall into, especially when playing a lot of gun games.
I vary my response to the "go stimuli" from nothing more than clearing cover and obtaining a firing grip all the way up to a mag dump COM on the move.
I also try not to be a slave to a buzzer. There are days at the range where it's pretty empty and I'll stand casually in front of my target over in the pistol bays and use a rifle shot from the adjacent rifle range as my "go" stimulus.

The only exception is when I go out to work on something very specific that I think requires multiple repetitions.

Bodhi
10-26-2017, 10:27 AM
I would simply add a warning to this. I would never want to tell someone what kind of trigger to use, I simply try to educate folks on the positives and negatives of the various systems so they can make an informed decision.

Part of that post stood out as one of those things people think but is often not the case. People at gun point or presenting a firearm into a situation that is not yet a full deadly force situation, but is headed there. Being ahead of the curve on bringing more faster is what dominates fights. If there was one take away from every really successful gunfighter I have ever talked to in my decades of study of how to win gunfights was have a gun in your hand before the fight starts. This takes managing people with guns to a serious level for everyone, not just cops. Cops have two huge benefits here. They do it often and build experience, and they get a ton of leeway in. Doing it because they are often using handguns in an offensive role. So, for non-LE who don't think they will need this skill set, I would add a huge caution. I have been in far more off duty/retired incidents than I should. I don't know how I am passing the "that looks like a victim Test" in several cases. Combine that with my black cloud of crap luck that follows me like a shadow, and I have pulled the "it's your day" card way too often. I have been in exactly Zero off duty shootings in which I am basically an armed citizen. This includes stopping multiple robberies. My ability to get ahead of those incidents was the key. Not a single one was a draw to a shot, but every single incident could have been if I was behind the situational awareness curve or the tactics curve that included the ability to deploy a pistol, or at least have it accesable before the shooting part started. The guns I have used in those incidents run the gamut from a J frame to Glocks, to a MARS Armament custom Thug 1911. So this isn't a 100% gun dependent, but it is 100% dependent on your ability to handle what gun you have chosen to carry without making a trigger finger mistake. I have some horrible habits for "shooting" that are great for managing a force incident. I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger. Hurts shooting for speed, great for not shooting the wrong folks or when it is not fully justified. Most accomplished gunfighter I know does the exact same thing. That allows a bunch of room for me with any system. For those who practice to a sub conscious level of drawing and placing a finger on the trigger to start the press or remove slack on the presentation......I hope you are good. Again, great for shooting and I know a bunch of folks who are true experts and have absolutely mastered this skill.....they are not the norm.

Thatís a very humbled response with someone with law enforcement experience. And a far fucking cry from the ďoperatorĒ bullshit training, and gun fora repated ad nauseam. Everyone thinks they are Billy the Kid with their modded Glock.
I joined this forum due to your OP cause it was some sense in a land of the nonsensical. You need a margin of error. If the new thing was some company was trying to market was a 3.5-4 lb AR trigger with NO safety, people would instantly bash. Calling it dangerous, someone is gonna kill themselves or others. Somehow in the pistol world itís ok. An ever increasing tendency to build new wonder strikers with 4lb triggers, short breaks, and minuscule resets, to make up for fundamentals. Deep thinking, and almost 20 years of TDA training while carrying Glocks this past few years really got my mind working, and that margin of error I need is pushing me back to TDA. Iíve quite enjoyed opening up my safe to grab what size I need, from a 43, to 26, to 19, or 17, and holstering it with a spare mag on the belt. Same controls, same trigger, same everything. But Iíve realized that ďconvenienceĒ has come at the expense of leaving myself a margin of error, and I donít enjoy strikers as much so I practice less. During my 20 years of TDA, I loved to practice, like I love driving a manual transmission in a car. Iíve got more control over a TDA, more feel, and more margin of error. TDA is home. Strikers are an automatic transmission. Sorry the only analogy I can think of that correlates, for me.

I truly thank you for the OP, as it isnít anything new, but a deadly reminder of reality in a sea of bullshit, ego, and gun industry marketing. I do think weíd have less shootings in general with TDA, and fewer NDís. It forces the user to be absolutely deliberate, and at the same time gives the user more margin of error. Not every draw means fire. Sadly current training, not everywhere, but commonplace, has led to a dumbing down and the least common denominator. Strikers are cheaper, easier for armorers, just easier. I am reminded often in life, the more difficult way is more rewarding, and many times leads to more expertise. I can only speak for myself, but it may be true for the industry, some times a step back leads to two steps forward. I just wish we had more modern TDA polymer platforms giving us light weight, high capacity, and solid reliability. At least we have Beretta and Heckler and Koch, and a gamut of revolvers. Thatís better than nothing. I am honestly tired of pushing myself to like the staple gun nature of strikers. They lack the feel of a solid TDA, and feel = control. I am concerned with splits, but more concerned with safety, and having a margin of error in tense situations.

My novel ramblings of the day.

Mark D
10-26-2017, 10:49 AM
I would simply add a warning to this. I would never want to tell someone what kind of trigger to use, I simply try to educate folks on the positives and negatives of the various systems so they can make an informed decision.

Part of that post stood out as one of those things people think but is often not the case. People at gun point or presenting a firearm into a situation that is not yet a full deadly force situation, but is headed there. Being ahead of the curve on bringing more faster is what dominates fights. If there was one take away from every really successful gunfighter I have ever talked to in my decades of study of how to win gunfights was have a gun in your hand before the fight starts. This takes managing people with guns to a serious level for everyone, not just cops. Cops have two huge benefits here. They do it often and build experience, and they get a ton of leeway in. Doing it because they are often using handguns in an offensive role. So, for non-LE who don't think they will need this skill set, I would add a huge caution. I have been in far more off duty/retired incidents than I should. I don't know how I am passing the "that looks like a victim Test" in several cases. Combine that with my black cloud of crap luck that follows me like a shadow, and I have pulled the "it's your day" card way too often. I have been in exactly Zero off duty shootings in which I am basically an armed citizen. This includes stopping multiple robberies. My ability to get ahead of those incidents was the key. Not a single one was a draw to a shot, but every single incident could have been if I was behind the situational awareness curve or the tactics curve that included the ability to deploy a pistol, or at least have it accesable before the shooting part started. The guns I have used in those incidents run the gamut from a J frame to Glocks, to a MARS Armament custom Thug 1911. So this isn't a 100% gun dependent, but it is 100% dependent on your ability to handle what gun you have chosen to carry without making a trigger finger mistake. I have some horrible habits for "shooting" that are great for managing a force incident. I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger. Hurts shooting for speed, great for not shooting the wrong folks or when it is not fully justified. Most accomplished gunfighter I know does the exact same thing. That allows a bunch of room for me with any system. For those who practice to a sub conscious level of drawing and placing a finger on the trigger to start the press or remove slack on the presentation......I hope you are good. Again, great for shooting and I know a bunch of folks who are true experts and have absolutely mastered this skill.....they are not the norm.

Thanks for the response and the reminder, Daryl. I see your point.

NETim
10-26-2017, 10:56 AM
This is good. I'm going to start practicing this.


Yeah. I've kinda lost my way. One of the downsides of playing games. You know what's in front of you and that the shot IS going to happen.

Thanks for the wakeup, DB!

Trooper224
10-26-2017, 05:21 PM
A fellow troop I often shoot with is a big competitor, he lives for it. In fact, when we've been shooting on our off time I've never seen him use his off duty weapon from concealment, or his duty rig. It's all about beating the timer and prepping the trigger during the press out in order to gain speed. I shoot as DB does, with my finger indexed alongside the weapon during the draw stroke, until it's time to shoot. His times on the shot timer are always a bit faster than mine, which his huge ego loves. On the other hand, guess which one of us has had successful experience on the two way range and guess who hasn't?

Doc_Glock
10-26-2017, 08:02 PM
lIíve quite enjoyed opening up my safe to grab what size I need, from a 43, to 26, to 19, or 17, and holstering it with a spare mag on the belt. Same controls, same trigger, same everything..

Boy can I relate to this. While I am starting to appreciate the TDA. This fact alone keeps me in Glock.

GardoneVT
10-26-2017, 08:31 PM
Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!? I mean WTF, here we have a brand new gun, and the sides are slick as they can be. Have any of these engineers (and I am not talking about Springfield here, all of the manufactures are included here) ever fired a handgun? That area that says "Grip Zone" should be covered up with texture all the way to the slide stop!!!

But then I talked to the guy at Beretta that wanted to make the side of the PX4 like nonskid tape and got shot down cuz it did not look nice. Don't mind me, I will just be over here pulling my hair out!!!

In all fairness to gun makers ,they aren't selling to gun forum members . Most shooters I see at my range use the cup and saucer grip--which is exactly what that texture would be good for. It is easy to forget on forums like this that most gun owners don't know fundamental shooting form, and they're the ones who buy the product.

stimpee
10-27-2017, 06:49 AM
Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!? I mean WTF, here we have a brand new gun, and the sides are slick as they can be. Have any of these engineers (and I am not talking about Springfield here, all of the manufactures are included here) ever fired a handgun? That area that says "Grip Zone" should be covered up with texture all the way to the slide stop!!!

But then I talked to the guy at Beretta that wanted to make the side of the PX4 like nonskid tape and got shot down cuz it did not look nice. Don't mind me, I will just be over here pulling my hair out!!!

Becausa, it musta looka nice-a!!!!

They know best.

spinmove_
10-27-2017, 07:18 AM
Becausa, it musta looka nice-a!!!!

They know best.

One only needs to look at the plethora of custom stippled Glocks on the Grams of Insta and know that functional grip texturing can indeed look good...


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Dagga Boy
10-27-2017, 07:27 AM
A fellow troop I often shoot with is a big competitor, he lives for it. In fact, when we've been shooting on our off time I've never seen him use his off duty weapon from concealment, or his duty rig. It's all about beating the timer and prepping the trigger during the press out in order to gain speed. I shoot as DB does, with my finger indexed alongside the weapon during the draw stroke, until it's time to shoot. His times on the shot timer are always a bit faster than mine, which his huge ego loves. On the other hand, guess which one of us has had successful experience on the two way range and guess who hasn't?


You tend to revert back to what is significant in your training and what has been trained into your subconscious. Drawing to get ahead of a fight has been my priority for my entire adult life, so I have spent a significant time training that way because it is what I want my default to be. Others have a different priority. I would suggest at least a balance IF drawing and not shooting has some importance to you. We often put things in class to not shoot every time you draw. It was important to me that if an attorney ever asked me or a student on a witness stand if we trained to not shoot, that I could answer honestly that not shooting was placed at a high level of importance. When there are real, deadly consequences and results at the end of that deployment of a firearm, I want some options and some serious thought to go with that action. Beating a timer is a different task. People often confuse winning the timer as being the same as winning the decision making process. It isn't the same. Related yes,...Same, No.

GJM
10-27-2017, 07:37 AM
Do you see LE doing a lot more preemptive drawing than non LE, given the potential legal differences between gun out versus in the holster?

tanner
10-27-2017, 07:49 AM
I saw a lot of preemptive drawing during my career, much of it unwarranted and/or using bad tactics.

Cops can get away with having their "woobie" much easier than non-cops can.

Dagga Boy
10-27-2017, 07:54 AM
Do you see LE doing a lot more preemptive drawing than non LE, given the potential legal differences between gun out versus in the holster?

We talk about this a lot in class. On the LE side, I was on a bit of a crusade in the later years of my career to get cops to stop pointing guns at everything. It was a push toward premptive draws to ready. Allows for a lethal response at not much more than reaction and decision time while being much safer and better for assessment by the officer. On the non LE side, we push the idea that if you are going to get ahead of a fight, can you articulate (this is the huge factor) a reason to visibly arm yourself, then what would be by most state statues as needing to legally justify a brandishing is much better than justifying an assault with a firearm. We very much stress being morally, ethically and legally “right” in these situations. It gets way past the shooting, and is the area that requires a ton of thinking. For most people, we invision needing a firearm for situations protecting ourselves and family at home. The ability to manage people in that area is important as a majority of “bumps in the night” are not actually evil doers. For concealed carry folks, things get a bit dicier. It is critical that a concealed carry person has both the ability to immediately access and deploy their firearm and shoot, as that tends to be a likely scenario. With that said, firearms are used far more often to deter a criminal act and it makes sense to me that we should be training how to do that as well.

Robinson
10-27-2017, 08:29 AM
In a recent training class I attended we drilled mostly drawing and shooting (as well as many other things). But we also drilled drawing to a low ready position that did not have the muzzle pointing directly at the threat (person). Verbal warnings were also used in these drills. It was taught very much as a situation-dependent tactic/technique.

CraigS
10-27-2017, 08:40 AM
DB I am really glad to see someone w/ your experience kind of validating my simple beginner level thoughts. We have been shooting for 18 yrs or so for fun and HD and started w/ Beretta 92s. I had rented a variety of guns and settled on the 92 because I figured neither my wife nor I would ever reach a Seal level of competence and I wanted that first DA shot as a backup and the possibilty of changing my mind as the situation changed. About 4 yrs ago I started carrying and got a Keltec PF9 which has a pretty nice DAO trigger- again, wanting that safety backup. 3 yrs ago we moved to Va and we both decided to carry full time. My wife ended up w/ a Glock19 Gen4. Then I started trying different triggers as I thought it was too close to the B92 SA trigger for carry. Ended up w/ a NY trigger spring and a 3.5 aftermarket connector. So she was something much more akin to a B92 DA trigger. I got an M&P compact and again thought it too light for carry. An Apex duty/carry kit fixed it for me. Both of the carry guns are not a pure DA, but now they do have a nice smooth, but heavier than stock pretravel, and then a slightly heavier than stock final pull. I am also really liking your thoughts on draw to ready as I have read and heard of quite a few situations that were resolved when the bad guy saw the gun and there was no need to fire. Thank you.

Dagga Boy
10-27-2017, 09:04 AM
In a recent training class I attended we drilled mostly drawing and shooting (as well as many other things). But we also drilled drawing to a low ready position that did not have the muzzle pointing directly at the threat (person). Verbal warnings were also used in these drills. It was taught very much as a situation-dependent tactic/technique.

We do this a lot and I practice it dry often. We just had a student counter a robbery attempt in a Walmart parking lot with a draw to a hard low ready and verbal commands. It was great getting the ďHoly crap, you guys are right, that worked perfectĒ. In this case the crook team fled without any shots being fired, no chase was given, and if it was ever looked at on video, our Good guy never pointed a gun at anyone and could very easily articulate why the firearm was presented.

fixer
10-27-2017, 11:16 AM
love this thread. classic pf greatness here.

Thanks DB!

Mr_White
10-27-2017, 11:25 AM
I hadn't looked at this thread in a couple of months and just got caught up. If I hadn't already posted the Drill of the Week, I would have reposted this dry drill that is largely related to practicing getting out the gun but not firing: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23078-Week-191-Draws-and-Challenges-Dry

There is no question that the act of drawing and challenging from a proper ready, or drawing and starting to fire but rescinding the decision and then not firing is extremely important. I really enjoy working with critical nuances like that in live-fire training, and I chose for that to be a big part of my presentation at the Rangemaster Conference next year.

One aspect that I have found to be very under-discussed in general (to the community's credit, we have had a few of these discussions at PF) is the question of when we are justified in drawing to a ready position, and further, what physical acts legitimately convey a deadly threat to another person that will need to be justified, differences between LE and private citizens, variations based on law and locale, etc.

JAD
10-27-2017, 11:48 AM
In a recent training class I attended we drilled mostly drawing and shooting (as well as many other things). But we also drilled drawing to a low ready position that did not have the muzzle pointing directly at the threat (person). Verbal warnings were also used in these drills. It was taught very much as a situation-dependent tactic/technique.

From my 250 at Gunsite in the mid nineties (Bill Jeans DirOps), my first training incorporated a lot of what they called 'draw to guard.' Clint Smith did it a bunch too, and added verbal commands. Something people who criticize the TR approach for letting communicating get in the way of shooting don't get is that you're only communicating before and after shooting, not during; if you're drawing to the trigger, you just communicate after the shooting's over.

I do a hard draw to guard every morning when I put my pistol on, to verify that my clothes and stuff work and to quickly inspect the gun. I also do it at the range whenever I'm working an exercise that starts with the pistol out, like group work.

PNWTO
10-27-2017, 12:20 PM
Dagga Boy, I know I've said this before but if you ever feel the need to crowdfund a book I will happily be the first contributor.

hufnagel
10-27-2017, 02:07 PM
As always, DB, your hard earned wisdom is very much appreciated.

1957
10-27-2017, 06:39 PM
During high school, a friend of mine acquired a part-time job at a metal stamping plant. He was trained to place a small square of sheet metal in a jig with one hand, and then push a button with other hand, engaging the very fast, and very heavy stamping machine. It wasn’t long before the first hand was stamped along with the sheet metal he just placed in the jig.

Bottom line, the machine was more dangerous than it needed to be and was soon redesigned. Two buttons now had to be pushed; one on the left side and one on the right. Let’s call it a double action stamping machine. A small design change made for a much safer machine.

The same goes for guns and the OP explains it more clearly than anything I’ve read previously. Not only does a TDA design make it safer during the self defense encounter, it also makes for a safer experience when holstering the gun.

1957

Chuck Whitlock
10-28-2017, 08:26 PM
I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger. Hurts shooting for speed, great for not shooting the wrong folks or when it is not fully justified. Most accomplished gunfighter I know does the exact same thing.

I was going to ask what kind of correlation there is between this and drawing to a low ready.


We talk about this a lot in class. On the LE side, I was on a bit of a crusade in the later years of my career to get cops to stop pointing guns at everything. It was a push toward premptive draws to ready. Allows for a lethal response at not much more than reaction and decision time while being much safer and better for assessment by the officer.

octagon
10-29-2017, 10:03 AM
There is no question that the act of drawing and challenging from a proper ready, or drawing and starting to fire but rescinding the decision and then not firing is extremely important. I really enjoy working with critical nuances like that in live-fire training, and I chose for that to be a big part of my presentation at the Rangemaster Conference next year.

One aspect that I have found to be very under-discussed in general (to the community's credit, we have had a few of these discussions at PF) is the question of when we are justified in drawing to a ready position, and further, what physical acts legitimately convey a deadly threat to another person that will need to be justified, differences between LE and private citizens, variations based on law and locale, etc.

This issue was discussed by Mas in the MAG 40 class and recently in a Q&A by Andrew Branca. The simplest answer for citizens outside the home is pretty much don't draw unless the triad of AOJ is satisfied. The real answer is more complex and a balance of speed/safety with legal risk if it is done too soon or inappropriately.

The subtleties of reaching to 3 or 4 o clock position(gun not visible),exposing gun in having firing grip in appendix,draw to low or other ready position with gun not pointed at suspect and gun pointed at suspect have so much grey area of interpretation and so many different state and local definitions of brandishing and Aggravated assault that getting a good practical definition and application is near impossible in general discussion and needs to be tailored more specifically to the individual,their location and most important the exact specifics of the situation they are in when they decide to reach,draw or point the weapon towards a suspect.

It is good to discuss the concepts and work out the ones that point heavily towards doing and other that point just as heavily towards don't but there is a lot of grey area in the middle.

willie
10-29-2017, 10:26 AM
Octagon mentioned subtleties involved with a civilian drawing or even showing his weapon. This information was missing from the several chl classes that I've attended. The emphasis in these has been that the law allows using deadly force to protect one's life. Subtleties imply shades of gray, and its these shades of gray that helped convince me to retreat if I could do so safely. I'm not interested in whether or not I can win a court case. My intent is never to be charged. Of course, we must all use common sense, but the problem is that a guy's common sense might not align with the law. When shades of gray are the rule, interpretations might vary from one region to another and sometimes vary within the same state.

GJM
10-29-2017, 11:19 AM
This issue was discussed by Mas in the MAG 40 class and recently in a Q&A by Andrew Branca. The simplest answer for citizens outside the home is pretty much don't draw unless the triad of AOJ is satisfied. The real answer is more complex and a balance of speed/safety with legal risk if it is done too soon or inappropriately.

The subtleties of reaching to 3 or 4 o clock position(gun not visible),exposing gun in having firing grip in appendix,draw to low or other ready position with gun not pointed at suspect and gun pointed at suspect have so much grey area of interpretation and so many different state and local definitions of brandishing and Aggravated assault that getting a good practical definition and application is near impossible in general discussion and needs to be tailored more specifically to the individual,their location and most important the exact specifics of the situation they are in when they decide to reach,draw or point the weapon towards a suspect.

It is good to discuss the concepts and work out the ones that point heavily towards doing and other that point just as heavily towards don't but there is a lot of grey area in the middle.

At the extreme, Gabe and I were discussing whether the .5-1.0 second gained for a civilian offsets the possibility of 5-10 years.

JodyH
10-29-2017, 11:49 AM
The one and only time I've ever drawn my CCW I did it preemptively and nobody but me knew the gun was out and then back into my pocket, no harm no foul but I was well ahead of the curve by doing so.
I think I posted about it before.
It was late at night in a convenience store and a goofball decided to play a prank on his clerk buddy by rushing in with his hoodie up.
I was back by the drink cooler and drew from my pocket to behind my thigh (covert ready).
The goofball then pulled his hood off and he and the clerk had a big laugh about the scared look on the clerks face.
I stuck my pistol back into my pocket (neither the clerk nor the goofball saw anything), paid for my soda and left after casually mentioning that they might not want to play pranks on each other when there are customers in the store.
Teenagers do stupid shit sometimes...

Mr_White
10-30-2017, 12:05 PM
This issue was discussed by Mas in the MAG 40 class and recently in a Q&A by Andrew Branca. The simplest answer for citizens outside the home is pretty much don't draw unless the triad of AOJ is satisfied. The real answer is more complex and a balance of speed/safety with legal risk if it is done too soon or inappropriately.

The subtleties of reaching to 3 or 4 o clock position(gun not visible),exposing gun in having firing grip in appendix,draw to low or other ready position with gun not pointed at suspect and gun pointed at suspect have so much grey area of interpretation and so many different state and local definitions of brandishing and Aggravated assault that getting a good practical definition and application is near impossible in general discussion and needs to be tailored more specifically to the individual,their location and most important the exact specifics of the situation they are in when they decide to reach,draw or point the weapon towards a suspect.

It is good to discuss the concepts and work out the ones that point heavily towards doing and other that point just as heavily towards don't but there is a lot of grey area in the middle.

Very interesting, thanks for posting that - it's very close to my own views on this.

holmes168
10-30-2017, 12:11 PM
Deleted

Robinson
10-30-2017, 12:35 PM
In a civilian role- my pistol will only come out to protect my family first and me second.

Of course. But the question is whether there is ever justification to draw to a low ready without the muzzle pointed at the person who is a threat instead of drawing and firing. I think it may be a useful and justifiable action under certain circumstances. Now legality may vary by state.

Dagga Boy
10-30-2017, 01:33 PM
It is really good to see that so many folks are sure of exactly what their use of firearms scenario is going to look like and exactly how they will respond. I must have been doing a lot wrong over the years, because most didn’t end up the way I thought they would. As an added bonus, themore experienced I have gotten and better as far as performance, the more I have gotten ahead of problems that may have ended up in a shooting before, and then ended up solving the issue without firing a shot.
I kind of swore in retirement that I would only go to the gun if it was a clear cut draw to a shot. Well, during an attempted robbery when I drew a J frame that was already in hand in my pocket, the crook uttered a profanity and changed plans. Thank God my plan b was finger straight and off target. Happy ending for everyone involved. No matter how fast we are, an entire world can change during the draw, and it is my opinion you should have a plan for that. But, we know what opinions are worth and if other folks experience tells them otherwise, then go with it.

HCountyGuy
10-30-2017, 02:20 PM
It is really good to see that so many folks are sure of exactly what their use of firearms scenario is going to look like and exactly how they will respond. I must have been doing a lot wrong over the years, because most didn’t end up the way I thought they would. As an added bonus, themore experienced I have gotten and better as far as performance, the more I have gotten ahead of problems that may have ended up in a shooting before, and then ended up solving the issue without firing a shot.
I kind of swore in retirement that I would only go to the gun if it was a clear cut draw to a shot. Well, during an attempted robbery when I drew a J frame that was already in hand in my pocket, the crook uttered a profanity and changed plans. Thank God my plan b was finger straight and off target. Happy ending for everyone involved. No matter how fast we are, an entire world can change during the draw, and it is my opinion you should have a plan for that. But, we know what opinions are worth and if other folks experience tells them otherwise, then go with it.

What practices have you adopted or put in to place for getting ahead of such problems?

And thank you for this topic and your continued thoughts on these matters.

GJM
10-30-2017, 03:52 PM
When I was at the Rogers School, I met a very talented shooter — a police officer from Chicago. He always carried a J frame in his right pocket, and DP said he routinely had his hand in that pocket as he encountered people. I also seem to recall Robert Vogel having a blinding fast draw with a J frame from his right front pocket.

Caballoflaco
10-30-2017, 04:47 PM
I'm just a regular earth people but here's my drawing to a hard index story.

When I switched from 1911's to glocks twelve years ago I made sure to engrain a hard and high register (my index finger on the ejection port) on the draw all the way to full extension before getting on the trigger. I also trained a lot of drawing and not shooting.

One night I fell asleep in the living room recliner while still wearing my gun. I woke up with my pistol drawn and trigger finger in hard register while my roommates were yelling the entrance phrase that meant "good guy; don't shoot!" that we had been using for a couple of years. My roommates had gotten home late and I'd drawn a gun (from appendix) while still asleep and that situation could have ended very badly in a few different ways. And honestly in that situation if I had always practiced a draw to shoot I would have fired any gun; 1911 on safe, revolver, glock etc. I really enjoy reading Dagga Boy. 's thoughts on triggers and safeties because they're applicable to my life and applications.


Now days I practice discreet draws as much as speed draws and more draws to index than drawing to a shot during dry fire practice. I also practice discretely accessing the gun (getting a firing grip) without drawing a lot. The glock is not my favorite for a discrete re-holster.

Balisong
10-30-2017, 04:49 PM
A fellow troop I often shoot with is a big competitor, he lives for it. In fact, when we've been shooting on our off time I've never seen him use his off duty weapon from concealment, or his duty rig. It's all about beating the timer and prepping the trigger during the press out in order to gain speed. I shoot as DB does, with my finger indexed alongside the weapon during the draw stroke, until it's time to shoot. His times on the shot timer are always a bit faster than mine, which his huge ego loves. On the other hand, guess which one of us has had successful experience on the two way range and guess who hasn't?

Thanks for your post. Would you mind elaborating on how his 2 way range experiences weren't "successful" and what he did wrong?
I'd appreciate it, and I understand if you can't discuss it, but I think it would be very pertinent to this thread.

HopetonBrown
10-30-2017, 05:59 PM
I also seem to recall Robert Vogel having a blinding fast draw with a J frame from his right front pocket.

Yeah, he said he'd occasionally have his hand on his 340PD during his time as a cop.

GardoneVT
10-30-2017, 06:30 PM
Here's a scenario:

You're alone in a memorial park.Your car is parked 200 yards away. You notice a shabby,foreign looking guy walking straight towards you. He's ignoring the sidewalks and is going across the grass straight to your location,with both of his hands inside his ratty coat pockets. It's clear he's 21 feet away and is intent on getting much closer.

Do you -
Draw to low ready?
Verbally interact with the stranger?
Both?
Neither?

In light of DBs insights above,what's your reaction?

David S.
10-30-2017, 08:12 PM
Here's a scenario:

You're alone in a memorial park.Your car is parked 200 yards away. You notice a shabby,foreign looking guy walking straight towards you. He's ignoring the sidewalks and is going across the grass straight to your location,with both of his hands inside his ratty coat pockets. It's clear he's 21 feet away and is intent on getting much closer.

Do you -
Draw to low ready?
Verbally interact with the stranger?
Both?
Neither?

In light of DBs insights above,what's your reaction?

ECQC.

Dagga Boy
10-30-2017, 08:19 PM
Here's a scenario:

You're alone in a memorial park.Your car is parked 200 yards away. You notice a shabby,foreign looking guy walking straight towards you. He's ignoring the sidewalks and is going across the grass straight to your location,with both of his hands inside his ratty coat pockets. It's clear he's 21 feet away and is intent on getting much closer.

Do you -
Draw to low ready?
Verbally interact with the stranger?
Both?
Neither?

In light of DBs insights above,what's your reaction?

No right answer. Which is why you need your brain to have several pre loaded solutions to act on what it comes up with as a response.

oldtexan
10-30-2017, 08:33 PM
ECQC.

Yup, ECQC. I don't know of anyone else teaching now that understands the peculiar problems of this kind of situation better than Craig Douglas of Shivworks. He calls it Managing Unknown Contacts(MUC). It involves situational awareness, understanding how criminals operate, decision-making, and how to use verbalization, movement, hardware, and unarmed techniques to deal with contacts with unknown persons with unknown motives. If you can't ( or don't want to) do the full 2.5 days of ECQC, he teaches his superb 4 hour MUC module at the beginning of each of his classes on Friday evening, and lets folks just do the MUC module.

1slow
10-30-2017, 11:02 PM
ECQC is very good at showing me my weaknesses. Made me realize that often you have to fight your way to being able to plug a tool into the fight. If you are not aware you are toast.

HCountyGuy
10-31-2017, 09:40 AM
So during a recent practice session, I noticed a particularly interesting habit.

With my Glock 19 I draw with my finger indexing the frame.

With my TDA P229 I draw and mount the trigger, taking up the pre-travel.

Not sure when/how I started doing all of that, though I believe it has to do with viewing the DA shot as requiring a bit more effort and being "more forgiving".

Trooper224
10-31-2017, 12:43 PM
Thanks for your post. Would you mind elaborating on how his 2 way range experiences weren't "successful" and what he did wrong?
I'd appreciate it, and I understand if you can't discuss it, but I think it would be very pertinent to this thread.

I have to apologize for my bad phrasology. What I meant and what I should have said, is my opinions and methods are based upon actual experience, whereas my coworkers are based upon theory and competition. (ie. he hasn't been there or done that) His emphasis is all about speed, speed, speed, since the sports he competes in are all about hosing rounds down range at targets that don't have lives to lose or lawsuits to file. He hasn't had to make those shoot/don't shoot decisions in the real world, so his views aren't tempered by those experiences. For myself, I've always placed as much emphasis on the "Can I and should I?" aspects as the "How do I?" ones. While I agree that we need to be able to get it out fast, I also think every nail doesn't always need a hammer.

I hope I'm clearer now. My youngest son is home on leave and we polished off a bottle of Jameson last night, so no guarantees this morning. :)

GJM
10-31-2017, 12:50 PM
So during a recent practice session, I noticed a particularly interesting habit.

With my Glock 19 I draw with my finger indexing the frame.

With my TDA P229 I draw and mount the trigger, taking up the pre-travel.

Not sure when/how I started doing all of that, though I believe it has to do with viewing the DA shot as requiring a bit more effort and being "more forgiving".


I don’t think your experience is uncommon. A trigger takes X travel and Y pounds to break. With a heavier trigger, like a DA or standard LEM, you either get on it earlier and more aggressively, or accept a slower time.

Balisong
10-31-2017, 05:46 PM
I have to apologize for my bad phrasology. What I meant and what I should have said, is my opinions and methods are based upon actual experience, whereas my coworkers are based upon theory and competition. (ie. he hasn't been there or done that) His emphasis is all about speed, speed, speed, since the sports he competes in are all about hosing rounds down range at targets that don't have lives to lose or lawsuits to file. He hasn't had to make those shoot/don't shoot decisions in the real world, so his views aren't tempered by those experiences. For myself, I've always placed as much emphasis on the "Can I and should I?" aspects as the "How do I?" ones. While I agree that we need to be able to get it out fast, I also think every nail doesn't always need a hammer.

I hope I'm clearer now. My youngest son is home on leave and we polished off a bottle of Jameson last night, so no guarantees this morning. :)

Ah no worries I gotcha now, thank you. Have a great time with your son!

Father of 3
11-01-2017, 10:14 AM
Between this thread and the “Why I Like LEM”, it really makes me want to trade/sell my G19 for a LEM. Is that wisdom or foolishness?

TheNewbie
11-01-2017, 10:32 AM
Between this thread and the “Why I Like LEM”, it really makes me want to trade/sell my G19 for a LEM. Is that wisdom or foolishness?

Both. :p

Guinnessman
11-01-2017, 10:49 AM
Between this thread and the “Why I Like LEM”, it really makes me want to trade/sell my G19 for a LEM. Is that wisdom or foolishness?

Repeat after me, "I will shoot the LEM at LEM speed, and not compare it to my Glock speed." Once you accept this, buy a LEM gun and get ready to practice your ass off. :p. Dry fire will be your friend.

I have found the P30sk to be the perfect carry gun when I am out and about, chasing my 3 year old around. She is completely unpredictable, and has me running, walking, kneeling, squating, and sitting. The gun carries well and is a piece of cake to conceal. I wish I could carry something larger, but this is the most gun I can carry while chasing around a 3 year old. Plus it shoots real naaaaaccceee.

JodyH
11-01-2017, 11:44 AM
Repeat after me, "I will shoot the LEM at LEM speed, and not compare it to my Glock speed."
If you're good with .21 or so splits on a Bill Drill the LEM won't hold you back.
If you just have to have .15 splits go elsewhere.

Myself, I'm very content in the .21-.25 range because my conscious brain can actually count and account for rounds at that speed.

tanner
11-01-2017, 03:33 PM
Between this thread and the “Why I Like LEM”, it really makes me want to trade/sell my G19 for a LEM. Is that wisdom or foolishness?

If you sell the G19, you will just end up buying another one someday. Ask me how I know this.

Save up and buy the LEM without selling! :D

PNWTO
11-01-2017, 03:41 PM
Between this thread and the ďWhy I Like LEMĒ, it really makes me want to trade/sell my G19 for a LEM. Is that wisdom or foolishness?

I'm about to go down the same path. Moving to a much more rural part of WA and being able to spend more nights in the backcountry this year than I ever have been able to have lead me to read GJM's USP 45 thread multiple times. I'm keeping the G19 but I think my weekend/woods piece will be a USP 45 w/ the Match LEM. I plan on enrolling on a semi-high round count class in the spring and running that gun as an ice breaker.

RJ
11-01-2017, 03:42 PM
Between this thread and the ďWhy I Like LEMĒ, it really makes me want to trade/sell my G19 for a LEM. Is that wisdom or foolishness?

I carry a P30SK LEM and am about to buy a Glock 19.

Mainly for 15 BBs vs. 10 BBs. But I shot it in my Givens class and was unhappy with my performance.

I shoot a VP9 in USPSA which is probably most of my problem.

The LEM has many specific advantages as outlined by those much much smarter than me. But if you are not THAT experienced, I would submit you should probably shoot a LEM exclusively.

psalms144.1
11-01-2017, 03:44 PM
The LEM has many specific advantages as outlined by those much much smarter than me. But if you are not THAT experienced, I would submit you should probably shoot a LEM exclusively.Don't sell yourself short, Rich. I dedicated myself completely to the LEM for over 18 months, and still could not shoot it worth a darn, compared to my Glocks.

I get the purpose of the trigger, it just doesn't "work" for me. If I was looking for a more deliberate trigger, I'd go the DA/SA route.

TheNewbie
11-01-2017, 04:19 PM
Don't sell yourself short, Rich. I dedicated myself completely to the LEM for over 18 months, and still could not shoot it worth a darn, compared to my Glocks.

I get the purpose of the trigger, it just doesn't "work" for me. If I was looking for a more deliberate trigger, I'd go the DA/SA route.

I wanted the LEM to work for me, but when I can use the hated DAK better than the LEM, I take it as a sign. The problem may be with me, likely is, but I still have to accept reality.

GJM
11-01-2017, 04:28 PM
As discussed many times, LEM offers handling benefits but yields less performance per unit of skill when shooting for time. Only you can decide if that is a good trade off.

JodyH
11-01-2017, 04:40 PM
As discussed many times, LEM offers handling benefits but yields less performance per unit of skill when shooting for time. Only you can decide if that is a good trade off.
I've found the VP9 trigger to be a good alternative to the LEM.
It's more forgiving than the LEM when it comes to shooting but it's still easy to back off the trigger mid-press.
My Walther PPQ on the other hand fires at the mere thought of getting on the trigger and fires again just thinking about reset, great for competition but I'd never carry it.

GJM
11-01-2017, 04:47 PM
I've found the VP9 trigger to be a good alternative to the LEM.
It's more forgiving than the LEM when it comes to shooting but it's still easy to back off the trigger mid-press.
My Walther PPQ on the other hand fires at the mere thought of getting on the trigger and fires again just thinking about reset, great for competition but I'd never carry it.

Very interesting because in length of travel the VP9 is shortest, then stock Glock, and the stock PPQ has the most take up. As someone who flips and presses, I canít feel the difference in reset between the three. Trigger weight is very close between VP9 and PPQ, where the Glock obviously varies by gen and components.

What the PPQ does have, is a very clean break after you reach the wall. Factory spec is 5.5 pounds but most say it is closer to 5.1.

JonInWA
11-01-2017, 06:54 PM
On my VP40, while weight-wise the triggerpull is very similar to a Glock (with the standard/dot connector and coil trigger spring), I find it's characteristics to be significantly different-it has a "softer" break point, and a slightly longer reset. Accordingly, I am somewhat wary to recommend a VP as a duty weapon, especially to a neophyte or inexperienced shooter; I really think that intensive familiarization training should be requisite before any consideration for duty.

LEM (or DAO, such as on my Beretta 92D) to me is an ideal duty/threat management action, as eloquently related by Dagga Boy and others, with it's hammer (visual clue), relative log triggerpull, perceptible (but relatively light at 5.4 lbs for V1 Light LEM) and short reset. And instant "decocking," with no action requisite other than removing one's finger from the trigger.

Best, Jon

GJM
11-01-2017, 07:23 PM
As we have discussed forever, pursuant to the rule of no free lunch, triggers that are easier to shoot the stuff you want to shoot with are also easier to shoot stuff you don’t want to shoot with.

JBP55
11-01-2017, 07:44 PM
As we have discussed forever, pursuant to the rule of no free lunch, triggers that are easier to shoot the stuff you want to shoot with are also easier to shoot stuff you don’t want to shoot with.

What he said!

OnionsAndDragons
11-01-2017, 10:53 PM
If you're good with .21 or so splits on a Bill Drill the LEM won't hold you back.
If you just have to have .15 splits go elsewhere.

Myself, I'm very content in the .21-.25 range because my conscious brain can actually count and account for rounds at that speed.

This has been my experience to a t.

I've found that when shooting target discrimination oriented drills, where the action is not known before the drill begins, I can shoot the LEM guns just as well as better shooters with striker guns if we are both shooting for full accountability.

On an entirely separate note: good to see you back for now JodyH


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Dagga Boy
11-02-2017, 07:30 AM
As discussed many times, LEM offers handling benefits but yields less performance per unit of skill when shooting for time. Only you can decide if that is a good trade off.


As we have discussed forever, pursuant to the rule of no free lunch, triggers that are easier to shoot the stuff you want to shoot with are also easier to shoot stuff you don’t want to shoot with.

One of the things GJM does (which gets lost often) because of his shooting volume is he actually tailors guns to what he is doing. For AIWB daily concealed carry, DA/SA or LEM hammer gun. For shooting competition and anything speed related, he is shooting a striker guns with a trigger he can manipulate at speed and is shooting some insane times on drills, and seems to be doing well in USPSA (most don't realize how old GJM actually is and shooting at his level relative to age is pretty amazing). He carries a well thought out backwoods gun in a place where Grizzly and other large animals are a real issue and not just a fantasy reason why another big bore Magnum is "needed". He also has to deal with many different state laws as he traverses bothe the United States and Canada by plane and that will affect certain choices as well.
This all fits into the idea that you need to fit the gun to the task. One of the hardest things I had to do as a young cop who was also a shooter was to wrap my head around the idea that I was in the prisoner taking business and not the gunfighting business and accept that prisoner taking guns were harder to shoot than gunfighting or competition guns. We ware blessed that we have had a bunch of folks really master the threat management Handguns and can learn from those folks to shoot them well.

I would also note that I find it humorous that folks are really in denial about the effects of triggers in the nano seconds of use. We all get the fact that no trigger weight will overcome mass failure while a finger is on a trigger. We have been preaching about this for decades and Wayne Dobbs has been one of he leading advocates of understanding the work of Dr.Roger Enoka since it was initially published. What we often don't talk about is the on target ND. I know that I have fired rounds in training and competition that "hit" (and some really good) and the round going off was a huge surprise. On paper targets, this is not a big deal. I have initiated this with students with the application of enough stress and confusion in some drills. Now translate that to shooting at another human in the United States and working through the investigation and intensive questioning that goes through that is a whole new ball game. Want to run a 2 pound trigger and "my finger is the safety", well, it is America, roll the dice and take the ride. Just don't cry if that choice becomes not a good one later. Also, think not about you carrying a handgun to manage highly complex problems with a "Really Shootable" trigger.....think about most of the rest of the population and your typical police officer, or armed security officer with a really easy to shoot firearm. Who makes the call on that one? Who pays when things don't go as planned?

JHC
11-02-2017, 08:27 AM
One of the things GJM does (which gets lost often) because of his shooting volume is he actually tailors guns to what he is doing. For AIWB daily concealed carry, DA/SA or LEM hammer gun. For shooting competition and anything speed related, he is shooting a striker guns with a trigger he can manipulate at speed and is shooting some insane times on drills, and seems to be doing well in USPSA (most don't realize how old GJM actually is and shooting at his level relative to age is pretty amazing). He carries a well thought out backwoods gun in a place where Grizzly and other large animals are a real issue and not just a fantasy reason why another big bore Magnum is "needed". He also has to deal with many different state laws as he traverses bothe the United States and Canada by plane and that will affect certain choices as well.
This all fits into the idea that you need to fit the gun to the task. One of the hardest things I had to do as a young cop who was also a shooter was to wrap my head around the idea that I was in the prisoner taking business and not the gunfighting business and accept that prisoner taking guns were harder to shoot than gunfighting or competition guns. We ware blessed that we have had a bunch of folks really master the threat management Handguns and can learn from those folks to shoot them well.

I would also note that I find it humorous that folks are really in denial about the effects of triggers in the nano seconds of use. We all get the fact that no trigger weight will overcome mass failure while a finger is on a trigger. We have been preaching about this for decades and Wayne Dobbs has been one of he leading advocates of understanding the work of Dr.Roger Enoka since it was initially published. What we often don't talk about is the on target ND. I know that I have fired rounds in training and competition that "hit" (and some really good) and the round going off was a huge surprise. On paper targets, this is not a big deal. I have initiated this with students with the application of enough stress and confusion in some drills. Now translate that to shooting at another human in the United States and working through the investigation and intensive questioning that goes through that is a whole new ball game. Want to run a 2 pound trigger and "my finger is the safety", well, it is America, roll the dice and take the ride. Just don't cry if that choice becomes not a good one later. Also, think not about you carrying a handgun to manage highly complex problems with a "Really Shootable" trigger.....think about most of the rest of the population and your typical police officer, or armed security officer with a really easy to shoot firearm. Who makes the call on that one? Who pays when things don't go as planned?


Thanks much for that post! Chuck full of good stuff.

Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.

Dagga Boy
11-02-2017, 09:39 AM
Thanks much for that post! Chuck full of good stuff.

Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.

Here lies the problem. So......you have never taken a person at gun point or held someone at the end of a gun before in your life, and reality hands you that problem. How good are you going to be on your first rodeo? I am glad I got to learn about taking down people at the end of a gun with a revolver as a rookie. I had 21 people at gun point my first week at work. That was as a 23 year old idiot with very little life experience and during the phase of FTO training where you aren't supposed to be doing anything. This was also in a time frame where we were taught to place our finger on the trigger (I was a bit of a problem child because I already knew better, but likely still unconsciously had my finger on the trigger while working through the training scars). So.....first time up, what trigger do you want while dealing with the obnoxious drunk neighbor being a Complete asshole, or a couple crap talking teen burglars with a different skin pigmentation than yours? Gunshop/internet answer of "I d just shoot em" is great for those who have massive financial backing and a last name of Clinton to guarantee no bad things will happen,

JodyH
11-02-2017, 09:55 AM
One of the things GJM does (which gets lost often) because of his shooting volume is he actually tailors guns to what he is doing.
"Mission drives strategy drives gear"

Dagga Boy
11-02-2017, 10:17 AM
"Mission drives strategy drives gear"

And this is why I missed you.....:-)

GJM
11-02-2017, 12:46 PM
A few things are unresolved in my mind:

Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.

Trooper224
11-02-2017, 12:50 PM
Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.

The problem with that mindset is this: most civilians aren't any more self aware than most cops, probably less, since they primarily live in fantasy land when it comes to firearms deployment. I don't care how much time one spends on the competition range. If you honestly think that's stress, you've never known the real shit down your pants leg stress of a gunfight. Most aren't as well trained as they think, nor as practiced as they claim. Consequently, most civilians would be best served with a double action revolver with a long DA trigger and a simple manual of arms.

Personally, I think priority should be placed on ones financial and mental well being post-shooting rather than a few tenths of a second on a shot timer, or an inch or two in group size. The latter may be great for interwebz chest puffing, but the former will keep you from losing your house and life savings.

octagon
11-02-2017, 01:52 PM
A few things are unresolved in my mind:


Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.


Thanks for that. So often any discussion quickly devolves into extremes instead of the real issue. I can't remember the last time I saw someone discussing a super light trigger for a defensive gun like 2 lbs. Hell I rarely see any discussion of trigger weights below 4-4.5 lbs. As you stated the differences are fairly narrow in band. Many of the people who seem to be most concerned and wound up by the minor differences don't have trigger pull gauges and/or don't realize or factor in the trigger's smoothness,pull length,where the take up and wall occur within the pull or stacking.

You last line isn't ambiguous at all. There really is no one size fits all solution. It is one of the few absolutes.

JonInWA
11-02-2017, 01:58 PM
A few things are unresolved in my mind:

Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.

I agree-there usually isn't one answer. but a lot of outliers can (and should) be eliminated by eliminating the "straw ends" as you put it.

While not necessarily a "one answer", over the past year in particular, through empirical experience, I've been slowly moving towards my .40 HK P30L wth V1 light LEM being an excellent duty/threat management/light wilderness gun (light wilderness I'm defining as day hikes where there's a low probability of the gun being immersed in any media requiring more than a field-strip {if even that} to clean/make operational). The P30 is exceptionally ergonomic and I naturally index and shoot well with it. And it's relatively light, and magazines are extremely well made.

Similarly, I'm considering my 9mm Gen3 Glock G34, with a NY1/minus connector, using DocGKR vetted cartridges for urban use, and Underwood/Lehigh cartridges for wilderness use as another viable "all use" weapon.

Best, Jon

JHC
11-02-2017, 02:05 PM
A few things are unresolved in my mind:

Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.

Agree. There is a balance a shooter will pick. On the balance, I am settled with Glocks using OEM connectors that settle in near 5.5 and 1911s on which I'm happy with vigorous use of the safety. I also prioritize a first dead nuts hit very highly.

Robinson
11-02-2017, 03:04 PM
A few things are unresolved in my mind:

Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.

Well I'm probably not really qualified to respond to this, but I am considering moving to two different pistols for my defensive needs. I am a long time 1911 user and I am fairly comfortable with that. But I recently bought two Beretta 92 series guns and an AIWB holster to go with the Compact model. I am going to keep practicing with the Berettas for a while and possibly start using my Compact for my carry gun. My HD gun will probably continue to be a 1911. I will practice with both and always have one of each in my range bag.

I will only go forward with this if I feel shooting both types doesn't prove detrimental to my level of ability with either. AND if I can get over the fact that the Lightweight Commander just carries so nice. :)

JustOneGun
11-02-2017, 03:04 PM
Thanks much for that post! Chuck full of good stuff.

Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.


It's good that this discussion has continued and is on the topic of: after I have my platform that helps but doesn't solve the problem, what do I do to solve the problem the rest of the way?

I'm not trying to bag on DB with his use of the term, "Prisoner taking gun". I understand what he means. But others might not. DB is explaining by example the definition of a, "prisoner taking gun". As you rightly suggest as a person who doesn't have arrest powers, taking prisoners in my state is an element of the definition to, "kidnapping" or if you're lucky, "Unlawful Imprisonment." In my state I have the power to point or display my weapon in order to stop force that is being used or about to be used against me. So if I can use lethal force then I can display the weapon, obvious. But many civilians have no clue when they can display the weapon without shooting. That is a big gray area that gets many civilians in trouble.

It's always amazing to me that some people will think about this subject deeply, make a decision one way or the other and then when asked, they admit they have never even looked at the laws of their state. Having a well developed set of mental triggers that allow one to know when to draw to display or to shoot is probably more important than much of this discussion.

LtDave
11-02-2017, 03:15 PM
I’ve recently hung up my Glocks and Sigs and have switched to carrying P30 V1 LEM exclusively. Like JonInWa, my primary gun is a P30L in .40 for basically the same reasons.

Faster split times will not make a difference in a gunfight. Target identification (working through the OODA loop) is where your time will be spent. That is where the games like USPSA and IDPA really diverge from the reality of gunfighting. I think both are great and recommend them for gun handling and shooting practice, but don’t ever consider them a gunfight analog. In both games, you know exactly what the bad guys and no shoots will look like and get a chance to walk through and see where they are before each stage. Not so much in a 360 degree environment.

JonInWA
11-02-2017, 03:31 PM
Iíve recently hung up my Glocks and Sigs and have switched to carrying P30 V1 LEM exclusively. Like JonInWa, my primary gun is a P30L in .40 for basically the same reasons.

Faster split times will not make a difference in a gunfight. Target identification (working through the OODA loop) is where your time will be spent. That is where the games like USPSA and IDPA really diverge from the reality of gunfighting. I think both are great and recommend them for gun handling and shooting practice, but donít ever consider them a gunfight analog. In both games, you know exactly what the bad guys and no shoots will look like and get a chance to walk through and see where they are before each stage. Not so much in a 360 degree environment.

And while I'll probably never reach the split potential (i.e., pure shootability) with the P30L V1 as compared to a 1911 or SFA pistol, I find that the "real world" shootability/split times are certainly more than adequate. The tailorable backstrap and side panel ergos, my index with it, and its intrinsic accuracy when combined with the additionally safety of the hammer-fired LEM V1 I personally I find to be a significant determining factor in its favor for many use scenarios.

While I may wish that it had a Glock-simplistic detailed disassembly/reassembly, probably 95%+ of the time that's irrelevant for me personally; canned air and a field-strip cleaning/lube is more than adequately sufficient.

Best, Jon

RJ
11-02-2017, 03:33 PM
Agree. There is a balance a shooter will pick. On the balance, I am settled with Glocks using OEM connectors that settle in near 5.5 and 1911s on which I'm happy with vigorous use of the safety. I also prioritize a first dead nuts hit very highly.

I think the bolded point needs to be emphasized.

Focusing the argument exclusively or nearly exclusively on ‘split times’, is a bit of a Straw Man, as it presupposes an accurate first shot. I would submit most of you are well past the point of being able to get ‘hits’ (however you want to define it i.e. between the nipples or an 8” circle) first shot on the draw, no matter what you are shooting.

I personally am very far down on this Bell curve just yet, and have not spent the training time/ammo sufficient to achieve success. I feel like I represent the vast majority of shooters who struggle with this. For us, limiting us to one gun (or gun type if you will) and then focusing on reliable accuracy is (imho) a better value for money.

Had I actually understood @Doc_GKR’s suggestion to ‘just get two Glock 19s and then buy ammo and training’, I’d have a lot more disposable cash these days. Probably shoot better, too.

Polecat
11-02-2017, 03:39 PM
It's always amazing to me that some people will think about this subject deeply, make a decision one way or the other and then when asked, they admit they have never even looked at the laws of their state. Having a well developed set of mental triggers that allow one to know when to draw to display or to shoot is probably more important than much of this discussion.

Applaud DB's raising the awareness. Have pondered all of these issues at different times. Hardware and software combined. So many great points in this thread. Being a civilian with a profession and CCW scares the shit out of me. Southnarc's ECQC course opened my eyes tremendously, my selection of precanned verbal response, how I would deescalate / escalate, my holster consideration, my empty hand skills, and scary realization that ECQC distance is so dangerous, in that the time compression really adds potential for error. Andrew Branca gave a local lecture I attended and it will / should humble you. Your perception of the law vs. the law, case law, local prosecutorial bias etc. all will come to play.

On the hardware issues, some brief thoughts; it was way easier to snatch the gun from kydex rigs than leather rigs when we worked on retention. Some guns I think are potential disasters on the street. For example, a PPQ while great to game and range use is just too light. Oddlly, when I shot my DAK's, my first shot is right on more often than not, I think because as you are indexing and aligning more "carefully" from the draw to discharge-maybe follow through? The P99 AS trigger seems ideal, if decocked into DA mode as first shot requires intention, and f/u shots can be shot quickly from the short reset. Lastly, I wish more makers offered safeties. Guys thanks for all your valuable insight.

Gentlemen, walk softly and carry many big sticks.
Dave

GJM
11-02-2017, 04:10 PM
On the hardware issues, some brief thoughts; it was way easier to snatch the gun from kydex rigs than leather rigs when we worked on retention. Some guns I think are potential disasters on the street. For example, a PPQ while great to game and range use is just too light. Oddlly, when I shot my DAK's, my first shot is right on more often than not, I think because as you are indexing and aligning more "carefully" from the draw to discharge-maybe follow through? The P99 AS trigger seems ideal, if decocked into DA mode as first shot requires intention, and f/u shots can be shot quickly from the short reset. Lastly, I wish more makers offered safeties. Guys thanks for all your valuable insight.

Gentlemen, walk softly and carry many big sticks.
Dave

This perfectly illustrates my point about people having strong opinions about things being safe or not based on very fine differences or perceived differences. As an example, Dave thinks ďa PPQ while great to game and range use is just too light,Ē where the P99 AS trigger ďseems ideal.Ē

What I find so interesting, is the PPQ has more take up than a VP9 or Glock, and a similar trigger weight, but it is ďtoo light.Ē The P99 is ďidealĒ even though itís reset and follow up shots are as or more short and light than a PPQ, and there is the potential to get confused about which of the three trigger conditions the P99 is in.

For a supposedly software focused forum, it seems like we are reducing safety to hardware choices, when I suspect software is far and away the most significant factor in overall safety. Holstering with your finger on the trigger is going to lead to a bad outcome regardless if it is a Glock, VP9, PPQ or P10-C. And if you tell me you run an M&P with a safety, would you bet if you would holster with finger on the trigger, you are confident you would have put the safety on, or in the case of a DA/SA, decocked first?

JustOneGun
11-02-2017, 05:00 PM
This perfectly illustrates my point about people having strong opinions about things being safe or not based on very fine differences or perceived differences. As an example, Dave thinks “a PPQ while great to game and range use is just too light,” where the P99 AS trigger “seems ideal.”

What I find so interesting, is the PPQ has more take up than a VP9 or Glock, and a similar trigger weight, but it is “too light.” The P99 is “ideal” even though it’s reset and follow up shots are as or more short and light than a PPQ, and there is the potential to get confused about which of the three trigger conditions the P99 is in.

For a supposedly software focused forum, it seems like we are reducing safety to hardware choices, when I suspect software is far and away the most significant factor in overall safety. Holstering with your finger on the trigger is going to lead to a bad outcome regardless if it is a Glock, VP9, PPQ or P10-C. And if you tell me you run an M&P with a safety, would you bet if you would holster with finger on the trigger, you are confident you would have put the safety on, or in the case of a DA/SA, decocked first?


This is essentially always been my argument. Other than doing something to artificially slow down the draw or presentation, the gun will go bang at about the same time whether it's a 1911, Glock, LEM or 14# DAO revolver. Why? Because as a few people point out in these threads, they get on the trigger a bit earlier with the longer trigger systems. So if that is what tends to happen with just a bit of practice there isn't much more time to, "Stop" shooting. We know that people were having the same startle reaction, sympathetic squeeze, etc before we ever created a striker fired pistol.

So the safety procedures, good work habits, etc that will allow you to safely carry an LEM are the same procedures that will allow you to carry a striker. The only way that it's not true is if it's all about hardware.

JodyH
11-02-2017, 06:32 PM
There is no hardware solution to a software problem.
If you're a soup sandwich, adding delicious bacon slices to it just makes for a soggy bacon soup sandwich.

There are various trigger systems that work with you, not against you when it comes to stress induced "software glitches".

I've had too many "surprise trigger breaks" with Walther PPQ's to be comfortable carrying them.
The shots still went straight into the target because my software programming is to get on the trigger once the pistol levels out and is just about to settle to a stop at full extension.
My base "software" is good and safe, the surprise BANG! is a glitch that while safe, is not acceptable to me if I'm still trying to evaluate the target up until the BANG!.
For the way I manipulate a trigger (I maintain constant finger contact with the trigger face) I find that the LEM and the VP9 give me more cushion against "glitches" than the PPQ or a M&P.

I think how you perceive a trigger's safety margins is determined by when you get on the trigger and how you run the trigger.
GJM may perceive triggers differently than I do because of his booger flickin' flip and press trigger manipulation method.

Doc_Glock
11-02-2017, 07:11 PM
FWIW, recently I did a drill where you get on target, wait for the beep and pull the trigger as fast as possible. Using a Beretta 92, I found that I can pull the trigger in 0.29 sec from hearing the beep in DA and 0.27 in SA. That 0.02s just isn't significant IMO.

I am kind of unsure of the interpretation though:

On one hand you could say the difference is insignificant, therefore DA/SA is not a detriment to getting the first round off.

On the other hand, you could say the longer, heavier DA pull can't really prevent a determined trigger pull, so why bother with two triggers and just learn the margins of a single pull.

I certainly respect the opinions of those who work with guns in hand frequently in non shoot situations, but I remain unconvinced there is any safety improvement with TDA, DAO or LEM systems. TDA introduces some modest but possibly unnecessary complexity into gun handling, and DAO/LEM slows shooting cadence perhaps insignificantly.

There is something really satisfying mentally about a system that allows the ignition portion of the gun to be at complete rest in its normal carry configuration. No amount of mechanical failures will allow this to fire without a trigger pull.

I just want to be safe and reasonably competent with any trigger type on the market.

octagon
11-02-2017, 08:00 PM
I don't get what the dive into minutia is supposed to be for. Is it for speed of the first shot,accuracy of the first shot and any/all follow up shots or split times? If it is for any of these for defensive shooting does it really matter if the user is trained and practiced with their particular gun? I say it doesn't matter enough to make a real world difference.

If it is about the safety of not shooting a suspect when you don't want to or "taking a person at gunpoint" then that is so much more a software/training and practice issue. It is also hugely more of a critical issue for LEOs than citizens and since it is more a LEO issue since they are doing it more often and have a duty to take a person into custody that citizens do not then we have to consider the Glock being so ubiquitous.

If badguys are being shot when they shouldn't be that is not a trigger issue but a decision making and technique issue both software not hardware.

Where the trigger finger is and when along with when and why we are pointing guns at another human being are all software issues.

David S.
11-02-2017, 08:03 PM
FWIW, recently I did a drill where you get on target, wait for the beep and pull the trigger as fast as possible. Using a Beretta 92, I found that I can pull the trigger in 0.29 sec from hearing the beep in DA and 0.27 in SA. That 0.02s just isn't significant IMO.

I am kind of unsure of the interpretation though:

On one hand you could say the difference is insignificant, therefore DA/SA is not a detriment to getting the first round off.

On the other hand, you could say the longer, heavier DA pull can't really prevent a determined trigger pull, so why bother with two triggers and just learn the margins of a single pull.

I certainly respect the opinions of those who work with guns in hand frequently in non shoot situations, but I remain unconvinced there is any safety improvement with TDA, DAO or LEM systems. TDA introduces some modest but possibly unnecessary complexity into gun handling, and DAO/LEM slows shooting cadence perhaps insignificantly.

There is something really satisfying mentally about a system that allows the ignition portion of the gun to be at complete rest in its normal carry configuration. No amount of mechanical failures will allow this to fire without a trigger pull.

I just want to be safe and reasonably competent with any trigger type on the market.

Enel. With respect, sir, your post seems to indicate that you misunderstand DB's argument.

To use a baseball analog, the primary benefit of a long DA or LEM trigger pull is an improved ability to check the swing. The long trigger pull gives you more room to stop mid-stroke, as the situation evolves. Trigger length is more important that weight.

I think I got that right. ;)

GJM
11-02-2017, 08:23 PM
If folks are shooting DA or LEM just as fast as shorter triggers, by faster application of pressure, how does that result in more decision time?

chl442
11-02-2017, 08:30 PM
If you're good with .21 or so splits on a Bill Drill the LEM won't hold you back.
If you just have to have .15 splits go elsewhere.

Myself, I'm very content in the .21-.25 range because my conscious brain can actually count and account for rounds at that speed.

100 percent agree with Jody H.
I have zero problems shooting .21 to .25 splits with my HK P2000's that are TLG LEM configuration .
I find myself having to work slightly harder with my P30's which are V1 Light LEM . I've done some of my best shooting at speed and precision work with the TLG LEM configuration. I actually prefer the "wall" in that configuration better than anything else .
Chris

octagon
11-02-2017, 08:35 PM
If folks are shooting DA or LEM just as fast as shorter triggers, by faster application of pressure, how does that result in more decision time?

And if the shooter is engaging the trigger sooner in the draw stroke to do so where is the safety margin also?

David S.
11-02-2017, 09:13 PM
If folks are shooting DA or LEM just as fast as shorter triggers, by faster application of pressure, how does that result in more decision time?
DB teaches students to operate at "decision making speed": A rather modest .35-.50 splits. If you're operating at that kind of pace, I think his long DA/LEM hardware recommendation start to makes sense. If you're operating beyond "decision making speed," whatever that means to you, then it probably doesn't matter what type of trigger you use.

I'm certainly no gunfighter and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I hope I'm representing his views accurately.

JustOneGun
11-02-2017, 10:18 PM
DB teaches students to operate at "decision making speed": A rather modest .35-.50 splits. If you're operating at that kind of pace, I think his long DA/LEM hardware recommendation start to makes sense. If you're operating beyond "decision making speed," whatever that means to you, then it probably doesn't matter what type of trigger you use.

I'm certainly no gunfighter and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I hope I'm representing his views accurately.


I too cannot speak for someone else. But when you break down what you need to do in a gunfight it might look different. So after doing everything in my control to avoid a gunfight fails and whatever mental trigger I have developed in my brain says, now. I decide that I need to shoot the bad guy. IMO it is good to see the what(gun, knife, bat, etc) that makes me want to shoot them as I start my presentation. At some point during that presentation I am nearing the time that I will place my finger on the trigger and pull it. Relative to that point I believe I need to change my eye focus from the what, to where I want my bullets to go. For sake of argument let's say high center chest. For the fraction of a second that I am no longer looking at the what and am looking at the target, I will not see the what anymore.
For me, once the decision to draw and fire is made, there is no reason to artificially slow down the draw or stop development of my speed. If the, "what" is still in his hand and a threat when I take my eyes off it and transition visually to my target, they are getting shot. If something changes before that, then by all means I need to stop. After that, it's not going to happen unless I artificially slow down. But at that point and for that fraction of a second, why in gods name would I want to go slower on purpose?

I think of it like a weight lifter. Make the easy gains before making it more complex. Make the gains in speed, knowledge of when to fire, knowledge of how to have good safe procedures so that only the bad guy gets shot, etc. As an aside, I don't believe in training to put decision making on the timer. It is a separate act. I don't start moving my hands to draw or come on target until that decision is made. I need to see what I need to see, no matter how long it takes. Low light, circumstances etc, may slow me way down. It happens. But once I know I need to draw, or draw and shoot, then that needs to happen at the fastest speed that I've developed to date during training that insures an accurate hit. If that is .5 or .15 it doesn't matter. That's my speed.

arcfide
11-02-2017, 10:31 PM
There are so many factors involved in something like this, it really is difficult or impossible to get a handle on it all.

If I can frame it a different way, I admire anyone who proposes a healthy dose of humility in any type of martial art. It's far too easy to assume that you've accounted for all possibilities, when you haven't. The original post, as I see it, is more of a call to humility and honest self-knowledge than anything else. I think many people misunderstand the DA safety debate because they examine it in terms of known quantities, when the whole point of DA for safety is to deal with unknown quantities. No one can program perfect software, and it's when you encounter those exceptional situations where your software isn't well tuned that DA can provide a benefit. It's precisely for those types of situations that you can't or didn't prepare for or adequately train for.

But the point is that we, by definition, don't know what those will be. They are by definition the places and areas that we can't adequately address with software. We can try, but we won't succeed. Hardware, therefore, is in place to provide us anchors and hooks upon which we can build software that can deal with unspecified situations more reliably and safely.

I think the sympathetic grasp is a good example. You can introduce software to try to deal with that, such as a good, consistent finger index and so forth. You can help mitigate issues with ND's by making sure that you have good muzzle discipline. But most people don't train to counteract sympathetic clenching. And you would have to train very, very hard to really get a true handle on it. I don't know of anyone who targets this or the startle flinch reaction to a very high degree outside of people who have literally had it worked out of them through the fires of real combat. 99% or more of the people out there have software that is more or less inadequate to fully deal with and mitigate this behavior. Hardware can help to mitigate some of this issue.

In short, I think the point is that we're not perfect, we can't be perfect, and we should make decisions about hardware based on a clear and visceral appreciation for our own fallibility.

JAD
11-02-2017, 10:32 PM
All moral people who carry firearms are in the same operating framework as LEOs as pertains to this issue. We all will be making a decision to fire with great reluctance and we will all be open to changes in the situation that interrupt that process.

When LEOs hold a prisoner, they donít have the trigger press initiated, so that aspect of being in the business, as DB described it, isnít germane.

Dagga Boy
11-03-2017, 08:03 AM
I'll just touch on a couple things and then leave it to the masses. We focus a lot on speed. I prefer to think of stuff in time (it's why my timer is a Rolex...;)). How much time does it take to accurately make a shoot decision, how much time to shift eye focus from the indicator/initiator to the place you want to hit, how much time to target, how much time to verify visually, how much time to start a sight track (I have found that often the folks who don't want to fight will remain stationary, and the ones you need to shoot start moving dynamically). After each shot, how much time and focus changes need to take place to justify the next shot. If you connected, how much time to fall, how much time to turn or stop the lethal force initiator, how much time to assess if more shots are required? This is all highly complex. Add the factor in that for the shooter time will be bent and warped by their brain (which is why I am big on building a sub conscious clock). Vision will be different, hearing will be different, tactile input will be different, lighting is unpredictable and changing, target background will likely be very different than what you are used to looking at (yet your front sight will be the same....another hint to why I find it important to get that thing welded into your sub conscious). So....how fast are you? Not pressing a trigger, but at working at all of the above? That is what I call assessment speed and if you are unconcerned with it, then we are talking about shooting and not use of lethal force with a firearm and those are to very different things with a very small overlap. I have witnessed a whole bunch of lethal force being used both successfully and unsuccessfully in urban America. I have opinions based on that that likely differ from other folks. I have seen his stuff first hand from both behind the gun and from other views, including several looking down from an aviation platform (that was actually one of the best for making observations). I have seen some things that have been consistent for winning fights with very little post fight issues both criminally, civililly, and emotionally. I will simply offer this advice, choose wisely on how you train, because it comes back when your sphincter tightens up. Bad habits, and training scars create massive issues. I have watched hard as wood pecker lips highly seasoned cops become unable to function post shooting.....yet, many who have never been exposed to doing this stuff for real pontificate as to what they will do, and what they need or don't need as a skill set. I have seen the aftermath of an unjustified shooting. Want to completely destroy your life and go from having the world by the tail to basically homeless and alone.....get in a bad shooting. Actually hit the wrong thing, and you will live in a cage in today's environment. Again....the shooting part is a Micro part. Being we love talking about speed.....great.....hit something the size of a decent size orange at exactly the right TIME, and stop shooting it at exactly the right TIME as fast as you can at that exact TIME under the exact conditions present at that TIME.
I find how I present a firearm, how I get on a trigger, and how I like to work that trigger is based on giving me time to be right and time to fix wrong. That trigger then has to be a bit of a compromise (and they all have pluses and minuses) between getting a hit or hits to the Orange size thing and all the other factors discussed above. To quote Larry Vickers.."Shooting a pistol is simple, but it isn't easy". Add my take of "Shooting is easy, being right is hard". Being right takes time and you will have to balance that with "speed".

Also, the NRA loves to discuss the millions of crimes diverted every year by a "good guy with a gun". Put that number up against how many citizen's shooting to stop a criminal attack there are, and I would venture that discounting handling people at the end of a gun is more important than many think it is. It isn't just a "cop thing". Cops do it in quantity, which should lead to being good at it. Citizens don't.....which leads to a very steep learning curve that tends to happen in the middle of a crisis.

HCountyGuy
11-03-2017, 08:30 AM
That...that right there every YouTube commando making .1X splits and sub-second draw-shots needs to read.

Their fan bases need it 100 X more.

Thank you for this extremely enlightening discussion Dagga.

JHC
11-03-2017, 09:01 AM
That...that right there every YouTube commando making .1X splits and sub-second draw-shots needs to read.

Their fan bases need it 100 X more.

Thank you for this extremely enlightening discussion Dagga.

Is a fast and sure draw more important than splits?

GJM
11-03-2017, 09:02 AM
That...that right there every YouTube commando making .1X splits and sub-second draw-shots needs to read.

Their fan bases need it 100 X more.

Thank you for this extremely enlightening discussion Dagga.

I think it really depends on what the video is trying to show. If someone says that overlearned technical skills are a good thing, then the video may be fine. If the video suggests you need .1X splits to survive a fight, I might skip that video.

I am pretty sure, in a past thread, we came to the consensus that the goal is to be able to shoot fast and accurately, while evaluating carefully. Those are separate things — the technical shooting and the evaluating. The quicker and more reliably you can execute the shooting, the more time you have to evaluate between shots.

The danger is that people with underdeveloped technical skills need to dip into the evaluation time to perform the shooting, or alternatively, try to execute the shooting at a pace they don’t own, with poor results.

LangdonTactical
11-03-2017, 09:03 AM
. Why? Because as a few people point out in these threads, they get on the trigger a bit earlier with the longer trigger systems. So if that is what tends to happen with just a bit of practice there isn't much more time to, "Stop" shooting. We know that people were having the same startle reaction, sympathetic squeeze, etc before we ever created a striker fired pistol.

So the safety procedures, good work habits, etc that will allow you to safely carry an LEM are the same procedures that will allow you to carry a striker. The only way that it's not true is if it's all about hardware.

Yeah, I am not sure I agree with this one. While "Startle Response" and "Bilateral Sympathetic Pull" have been around since the birth of man, a longer trigger pull gives way more margin for error than a shorter trigger pull. If this was not the case, you would not see the huge rise in NDs that have happened to major departments that switched from DA guns to Striker Fired guns.

I have a good friend of mine, John Montenegro, who is on the LASD SWAT Team (they call it SEB). John is a huge fan of DA guns (Sigs and Berettas) for all the right reasons.

John attended Gunsight about two years ago for the advanced pistol class, I think it is called the 450. There where 19 shooters in that class, all shooting SFA guns or 1911s, except John. John was shooting his duty 92A1. About half of the class was LE including some other SWAT guys. I have a list of LEO guys that feel the same way as John does about DA guns for LEO use.

John was the high shooter on the qual and won the shoot off. So he shot the gun very well and speed was not an issue. BUT, John was the only gun in the class that did not shoot a particular non-threat target in the Shoot House. John said he started to get on the trigger but stopped when he saw it was not a threat target.

So, 18 well-trained guys that have been to at least two classes at this place (likely many other classes as well), all shoot a target that was not a threat, mostly shooting Striker Fired guns. The one guy shooting a DA gun did not. I am pretty sure Law Enforcement calls that a clue.

Also, there are two ways to draw your gun in my opinion. One, is a draw to shoot, meaning when I put my hand on the gun I already know that I am going to shoot (highly likely, things can change in that time frame), the fight has already started. Two, is to get my gun in my hand because, reasons. For draw number one I am going to get to the trigger and drive the gun straight to the target. In draw two, I am straight trigger finger and "not" pointing my gun at the target or threat. As DB states, they both need to be trained quite a bit.

It is also clear that the reasons that a civilian can legally get their hand on their gun are much different than that of an LEO.

LangdonTactical
11-03-2017, 09:10 AM
That...that right there every YouTube commando making .1X splits and sub-second draw-shots needs to read.

Their fan bases need it 100 X more.

Thank you for this extremely enlightening discussion Dagga.

For those that have been to my class, specifically my advanced class. You will know where I stand on this. .1x splits are cool, but they rely on the target and the shooter standing still, which is not very likely at all. When you are moving and the target is moving, you are lucky to get splits faster than about .35 and .50s are more the norm because that is the time that it takes for your mine to process the information that is coming in and for the gun to cycle. I have never really cared about .1X splits, they are just not important for most of what we need a handgun for.

Redhat
11-03-2017, 09:18 AM
Some excellent posts !

I'd like to hear some thoughts on how to address / assess / maintain awareness of, the dynamically changing background (no-shoots) within the environment DB and EL are discussing.

Thanks

Dagga Boy
11-03-2017, 10:16 AM
Is a fast and sure draw more important than splits?

Accesability and knowing when and how to deploy is more important than both. I found a gun in my hand beat the last guy I went up against fast appendix draw.....and there were no "splits" from either party.


I think it really depends on what the video is trying to show. If someone says that overlearned technical skills are a good thing, then the video may be fine. If the video suggests you need .1X splits to survive a fight, I might skip that video.

I am pretty sure, in a past thread, we came to the consensus that the goal is to be able to shoot fast and accurately, while evaluating carefully. Those are separate things — the technical shooting and the evaluating. The quicker and more reliably you can execute the shooting, the more time you have to evaluate between shots.

The danger is that people with underdeveloped technical skills need to dip into the evaluation time to perform the shooting, or alternatively, try to execute the shooting at a pace they don’t own, with poor results.

All of it is a balance and None of it mastered alone will win fights. If I had to preach anything it is balance. I talk in class about keeping the Combat Triad in balance. A failure in any component has consequences. I see a bunch of folks spend a ton of time mastering one thing and it overwhelms everything else. You can outshoot your ability to think and you can out think your ability to shoot. Best thinker in the world with crap technical skills will have as many issues as a great technical shooter who isn't thinking. The problems just tend to have different consequences.


Yeah, I am not sure I agree with this one. While "Startle Response" and "Bilateral Sympathetic Pull" have been around since the birth of man, a longer trigger pull gives way more margin for error than a shorter trigger pull. If this was not the case, you would not see the huge rise in NDs that have happened to major departments that switched from DA guns to Striker Fired guns.

I have a good friend of mine, John Montenegro, who is on the LASD SWAT Team (they call it SEB). John is a huge fan of DA guns (Sigs and Berettas) for all the right reasons.

John attended Gunsight about two years ago for the advanced pistol class, I think it is called the 450. There where 19 shooters in that class, all shooting SFA guns or 1911s, except John. John was shooting his duty 92A1. About half of the class was LE including some other SWAT guys. I have a list of LEO guys that feel the same way as John does about DA guns for LEO use.

John was the high shooter on the qual and won the shoot off. So he shot the gun very well and speed was not an issue. BUT, John was the only gun in the class that did not shoot a particular non-threat target in the Shoot House. John said he started to get on the trigger but stopped when he saw it was not a threat target.

So, 18 well-trained guys that have been to at least two classes at this place (likely many other classes as well), all shoot a target that was not a threat, mostly shooting Striker Fired guns. The one guy shooting a DA gun did not. I am pretty sure Law Enforcement calls that a clue.

Also, there are two ways to draw your gun in my opinion. One, is a draw to shoot, meaning when I put my hand on the gun I already know that I am going to shoot (highly likely, things can change in that time frame), the fight has already started. Two, is to get my gun in my hand because, reasons. For draw number one I am going to get to the trigger and drive the gun straight to the target. In draw two, I am straight trigger finger and "not" pointing my gun at the target or threat. As DB states, they both need to be trained quite a bit.

It is also clear that the reasons that a civilian can legally get their hand on their gun are much different than that of an LEO.

I think I had John and another deputy in a Vickers special class......absolutely frightening performance from a well worn Beretta in Duty gear. Very much proof of Indian not the arrow and mastery of fundementals over YouTube trigger job.


For those that have been to my class, specifically my advanced class. You will know where I stand on this. .1x splits are cool, but they rely on the target and the shooter standing still, which is not very likely at all. When you are moving and the target is moving, you are lucky to get splits faster than about .35 and .50s are more the norm because that is the time that it takes for your mine to process the information that is coming in and for the gun to cycle. I have never really cared about .1X splits, they are just not important for most of what we need a handgun for.

Ditto.....except I had a "splits phase". I wish I could have the time and ammo back wasted on the pursuit of a couple hundredth's of a second. That was before I was in an actual shooting and got a reality check on what was actually important.

EVP
11-03-2017, 10:28 AM
Excellent info Dagga and Langdontac!

I agree with everything yíall have stated. I am a civilian that has never had to unholster my firearm(I pray I never have too). My thoughts are if I ever had to I would want something that would be more deliberate especially when dealing with stresses and a situation I have never been exposed to.

JustOneGun
11-03-2017, 10:31 AM
I think it really depends on what the video is trying to show. If someone says that overlearned technical skills are a good thing, then the video may be fine. If the video suggests you need .1X splits to survive a fight, I might skip that video.

I am pretty sure, in a past thread, we came to the consensus that the goal is to be able to shoot fast and accurately, while evaluating carefully. Those are separate things — the technical shooting and the evaluating. The quicker and more reliably you can execute the shooting, the more time you have to evaluate between shots.

The danger is that people with underdeveloped technical skills need to dip into the evaluation time to perform the shooting, or alternatively, try to execute the shooting at a pace they don’t own, with poor results.


I suspect some of the problems with new people and poor shooting is that the timing of a gunfight changes just as much as hearing, sight, etc. I and other officers I spoke with reported being able to shoot their, on command speed. But some of those shootings were taped. What the officers reported and what actually was the rhythm were very different. Most shot a much faster rhythm than reported. More important was that they shot faster than their on demand speed. So pushing the speed and then backing off to one's on demand speed does two things. It helps the person keep control during the stressful fight and the person who shoots faster than they believe is actually shooting at a speed they have shot before in training.
Another problem with newer people is they tend to follow the leader. Sort a cult of personality. They totally ignore other voices who have very similar backgrounds that disagree with the cult like personality. They often don't have that internal dialog with both sides, make a decision and then put that decision back into their plan and see how it would shake out. They sometimes build their system on various straw man arguments. I think it was ToddG that talked about how lucky we are that we don't have a negative outcome every time we do something foolish/wrong. It's the foolish act and something external that combine for a negative outcome. Most of us will have time to grow through our mistakes. And thank god, I surely make them.

With that I'm out. I have to stop pontificating on the internet and go become a productive member of society. This thread wasn't just a rehash of older threads. There were some good nuggets of wisdom about some of those training scars that can come back and bite us at the worst possible time. Perhaps tomorrow I will start a new thread so we can discuss some of those little things. That might help us put together our training plan without making some of those mistakes.

Thanks for the good thread folks...

JHC
11-03-2017, 10:36 AM
Accesability and knowing when and how to deploy is more important than both. I found a gun in my hand beat the last guy I went up against fast appendix draw.....and there were no "splits" from either party. .

Definitely. Gun in the hand, fastest draw. Situational awareness and knowing when to say when.

I have this impression that a LEO badge goes a long way to not getting into a lot of trouble from drawing too soon. Ergo additional complexity for the non-sworn. So my current clueless position is a non-LEO might want to be PDQ.

GJM
11-03-2017, 10:39 AM
Ernest, it is Gunsite, and the class would be API 499, Advanced Pistol.

A few interesting coincidences. Gunsite just had their “GAS” match, which is short for Gunsite Alumni Shoot. John was first, and I was second in the match. As it turns out, I took 599 a few years back, which is their super duper pistol class. I ran a Brig Tac, and was at the top of the class. What was interesting, was I had to use a Glock on the FOF simulations. I felt no more or less capable than if I was using my Brig Tac.

John is a very strong shooter, and I would wager a very large bet that had a lot to do with his target discrimination. You really would have had to run him through multiple shoot houses with a Glock or 1911, and others with striker and hammer gun to have anything approaching meaningful data.

If someone feels they should carry a particular system, I am all for it, but I feel like the emphasis should primarily be on software.

LangdonTactical
11-03-2017, 10:46 AM
Ernest, it is Gunsite, and the class would be API 499, Advanced Pistol.

A few interesting coincidences. Gunsite just had their “GAS” match, which is short for Gunsite Alumni Shoot. John was first, and I was second in the match. As it turns out, I took 599 a few years back, which is their super duper pistol class. I ran a Brig Tac, and was at the top of the class. What was interesting, was I had to use a Glock on the FOF simulations. I felt no more or less capable than if I was using my Brig Tac.

John is a very strong shooter, and I would wager a very large bet that had a lot to do with his target discrimination. You really would have had to run him through multiple shoot houses with a Glock or 1911, and others with striker and hammer gun to have anything approaching meaningful data.

If someone feels they should carry a particular system, I am all for it, but I feel like the emphasis should primarily be on software.

All very true, and John is more than a strong shooter for sure. He has I think 11 years on the SEB team now and tons of experience. The point is even a guy with that much experience and skill with a gun, has made the choice to shoot a DA gun for the reasons we are talking about. Could he do the same thing with a Striker Gun, very likely? But he also knows he is capable of making mistakes and likes the extra margin that the DA gun gives him.

LangdonTactical
11-03-2017, 10:53 AM
I think I had John and another deputy in a Vickers special class......absolutely frightening performance from a well worn Beretta in Duty gear. Very much proof of Indian not the arrow and mastery of fundementals over YouTube trigger job.

Ditto.....except I had a "splits phase". I wish I could have the time and ammo back wasted on the pursuit of a couple hundredth's of a second. That was before I was in an actual shooting and got a reality check on what was actually important.

Yup, that was likely John. He is pretty damn amazing with that Beretta. He also won a FAST coin from Duty Gear with a 92A1.

We have all gone after splits at one point or another, I know I have, and I would not say that that time was wasted. Knowing how fast you can go, seeing the movie at full speed is a valuable thing. In a close in gunfight, say 3 yards or less, it is very likely that you will pull the trigger at your limit of human function. Or as I like to say "you'll beat the trigger like it owes you money". I think there is value in knowing what that looks like and feels like.

That said, spending the bulk of your time on the range trying to get to a .16 split at 7 yards is likely a waste of time.

Dagga Boy
11-03-2017, 11:02 AM
If someone feels they should carry a particular system, I am all for it, but I feel like the emphasis should primarily be on software.

Gold nugget statement with the added caveat that their hardware choice needs to compliment their software emphasis. Many use a piece of hardware to try to make up for software deficiencies.

DAB
11-03-2017, 11:27 AM
haven't read the entire thread, but one of the most important things i've learned from practice (with a timer) and from local IDPA matches is how fast I can go. others can go faster, but I know how fast I can go and still get good hits. useful thing to know.

octagon
11-03-2017, 12:15 PM
Definitely. Gun in the hand, fastest draw. Situational awareness and knowing when to say when.

I have this impression that a LEO badge goes a long way to not getting into a lot of trouble from drawing too soon. Ergo additional complexity for the non-sworn. So my current clueless position is a non-LEO might want to be PDQ.

You make an excellent point more succinctly than I did in my post earlier. LEOs are able to draw sooner,point guns at suspects more often and with less repercussion than citizens. This is why I have so much confusion with the trigger as a safety factor vs software (Training,practice,technique)

There are approx 800,000 sworn officers in the US. They make 10 million arrests a year*. 500,000 arrests for violent felonies*. Approx 60% of LE agencies carry Glocks with even more if you include similar M&P and other striker fired guns. How many unintentional shots are being fired at and hitting a suspect when they shouldn't be due to a trigger design factor? If it happens there will be a civil suit, and there will be reporting of the incident.

How many citizens have defensive gun use against criminals every year? The statistics vary according to source and many times agenda but regardless it is a huge amount. Most times without a shot being fired, if a shot is fired no hit and if a suspect is hit not a lot die. How many of these that hit the suspect are unintentional shots fired because of a trigger design factor?

Looking more anecdotally at the issue I consider the hundreds if not thousands of people I have arrested or otherwise engaged with gun in hand, out of the holster, pointed at suspects. I consider how many of my fellow officers have done and continue to do the same thing everyday. In just one medium size agency. All with Glocks with 5.5lb triggers. No ND or suspects shot at unless it was intended and justified. All the badguys went to jail or the morgue, NO LEOs injured, NO people hit by LEO or suspect bullets and not a single criminal charge against any LEO and no civil wins against the officer or agency. Granted we only contributed about 185000 arrests during my career to the overall numbers.

I can see the value in such discussions but every issue must be taken in context and balanced with hits/misses risk to LEOs and bystanders and with training realities.

* FBI UCR numbers rounded over the last several years of data available.

Mr_White
11-03-2017, 01:55 PM
Since I just switched (for the time being, I'll probably stay, who knows maybe I go back) from lightly-tuned Gen3 G34s to stock Gen5 G17s, I have a little harder trigger to contend with. It's very good qualitatively, but definitely a bit heavier.

I'm starting out with the Gen5 concentrating on trigger work more than anything else. In working with the slightly heavier trigger, I'm trying to focus on increasing the rate of pressure application to the trigger (steepen the curve), but still make sure to only get onto and actively press the trigger at the same point in the presentation where I would have with my slightly lighter-triggered Gen3 G34s, instead of starting the trigger press sooner. I think that's a very important distinction to make.

Robinson
11-03-2017, 02:09 PM
This is an awesome thread.

I am learning from shooting my Berettas more at the range that I am definitely NOT managing the trigger the same as with my 1911s. With the 1911 I really rely on the thumb safety and if my finger goes to the trigger there is going to be a pretty immediate BANG. With the Beretta I do get on the trigger a little earlier. I've read Mr. Langdon's comments about this -- being more aggressive on the trigger when presenting to the target -- and he explains it a heck of a lot better than I can. I'm pretty convinced it's true and appropriate though.

RJ
11-04-2017, 07:10 AM
This is an awesome thread.



Seriously.

Every time I come on this site I stumble into conversations like this.

What I like is that the disparate views are offered with reasoned argument supported by experience. I may not ever be able to perform at this high level with multiple firearms, but it does give me a lot to think about.

LSP552
11-04-2017, 07:23 AM
This is an awesome thread.

I am learning from shooting my Berettas more at the range that I am definitely NOT managing the trigger the same as with my 1911s. With the 1911 I really rely on the thumb safety and if my finger goes to the trigger there is going to be a pretty immediate BANG. With the Beretta I do get on the trigger a little earlier. I've read Mr. Langdon's comments about this -- being more aggressive on the trigger when presenting to the target -- and he explains it a heck of a lot better than I can. I'm pretty convinced it's true and appropriate though.

It’s true and appropriate when you have made the legal and ethical decision to shoot the target you are presenting to. That’s why we have to work with no-shoot targets so we don’t treat everything the same and build an autopilot to automatically go to the trigger unless the decision tobshoot as been made. If every draw with a TDA ends up with a finger prepping the trigger, we “hardwire” (TM Darryl and Wayne) the wrong thing.

I’ve spent a ton of time on TDA. I absolutely prep the trigger when driving the gun to extension - starting when I have made the decision to shoot. It’s important to understand the key is starting the trigger prep AFTER the decision process. That’s the point that doesn’t get stressed enough, IMO.

JHC
11-04-2017, 08:15 AM
One reason I find Glocks and 1911s somewhat complimentary is on both I can get on the trigger rather late. Same goes for when I shot the 320 and M&P

CCT125US
11-04-2017, 08:56 AM
If folks are shooting DA or LEM just as fast as shorter triggers, by faster application of pressure, how does that result in more decision time?

Wouldn't say it is faster application, rather earlier. And that earlier application provides a longer band of feedback that you are on the trigger.

Dagga Boy
11-04-2017, 09:12 AM
One reason I find Glocks and somewhat complimentary is on both I can get on the trigger very late. Same goes for when I shot the 320 and M&P

Exactly. And as long as you stay off that trigger and get on it late and deliberately, they are great to shoot and easy to run. The problem is....when you don't. As long as you ALWAYS manage these triggers correctly, there should not be an issue.

Also....I will disagree with the ND problem not being a problem. These are statistics I would never rely on. You want to talk about under reported, hidden, swept under the rug, and generally lied about things in LE.....ND's. Unless someone gets hurt, often you get the hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil response. I agood example would be that it is now being reported the an ND occurred in the room of the very dead already scumbag from the Las Vegas shooting. One of the most horrendous, heavily investigated crimes ever committed in the United States with world wide 24/7 press coverage and it took weeks for that tidbit to slip out (and was likely a leak). Imagine what happens when one happens when deputy dumbass or officer puckerbutt lights one off in Nowhereville, USA? If it is off duty....with no harm done, not a chance. This is one I have very first hand knowledge of, and it is a very dirty little secret, and I have heard from very reliable sources that it is a major issue not talked about on the mil side as well. If folks think it is a non-issue, that is a choice, and life is full of them. If we want to make the case it is a massive training and software issue, we are on the same sheet of music and it is a choir I am singing with. I also subscribe to the idea that there is some hardware components to the issue, others don't. I have stopped multiple trigger presses after a shoot decision was made with ease. Two components to that, I was very aware of the press due to length of the finger movement, and I could very distinctly "See" my trigger press with the hammer movement. You do not often see me getting into a huge discussion on trigger weight, as it is not the main factor to me. It is trigger movement and a visible hammer that are the two big components that I have gone back to really liking.

holmes168
11-04-2017, 10:17 AM
I would guess that everyone on Pistol Forum has an AHA! moment on their journey. This forum is the best resource I have ever seen on firearms- hands down. Now- there are a few times over the past year, I have chased not the gun of the month or week, but the gun of the day/hour because I wanted to be Gabe White, Sean M, Ernest Langdon, (insert cool guy name here). I have spent plenty of money trying to figure out what was right for ME.

Recently- on a whim, I picked up a Beretta M9- the piece of crap that I carried as a paperweight in Iraq for two years. Wow- the pistol was great. The DA/SA was great. The trigger pull was heavy and deliberate- I loved it. Then I bought a PX4 Storm- again, great trigger pull because of the heavy weight that was behind the pull......so then.......the PX4CC was on my shopping list...... I took it to the range and really enjoyed it. I shot it a bit slower than Glock, but the trigger pull was exactly what I needed. I finally found my holy grail of pistolas....then last night, I made the decision to stay with Glocks. Why? Well- for years I have carried Glocks and they are...Glocks. Today- took the Glock to the range.....shot a FAST at 5 yards to warm up- did decent. Then out to 7 yards and missed my shots, and they weren't that much faster than the PX4CC. Then off to Dot Torture- this is when my AHA happened- the first shot on the first dot. The gun went off by surprise- not a ND surprise, but the lighter trigger surprise. Then the second, third, and so on. I ended up shooting my worst score in months on Dot Torture. It all came down to the TRIGGER difference between the Glock and the TDA. BAM!!!!!!!!! I finally understood exactly what this thread is really about- along with Ernest Langdon's comments about light trigger pull guns a few months ago (a classic thread w/great comments).

I have read this thread and many, many other threads and thought I understood them......but today- I had what DB (I think) referred to as a knowledge bomb dropped on my head. I am better served by carrying a TDA- the chance of my pulling my pistol as a CCW holder is slim, but who really knows what will happen when they leave the house. It is a responsibility that I have thought about a lot- I am not LE and am not there to hold someone at bay who is shoplifting at Wal-mart. I am not an infantryman in Fallujah, Baghdad, or Ramadi anymore. The Glock is a great weapon, but as a CCW carrier- I need to stay with a TDA because of the trigger pull. The Glock doesn't even have that light of a trigger- see PPQ, VP9. I think the majority of non-LE ccw holders need to stay TDA. That tiny little trigger is usually an afterthought for so many people. That tiny trigger has the potential to end a life- something that too many of us have seen too much of. I used the word weapon earlier- my mindset never forgets what a firearm is at the most base level- a weapon. Not banging on USPSA or any fun shooting activity- this is my mindset because my training.

Thank you to Dagga Boy and the members/information on this forum- and the serious discussions that are held. Just by reading through this thread, being committed to dry/live fire, testing different systems and taking the advice of experts- who knows what kind of situation i have been saved from.

Anyone who was put up with my comments on this forum is probably shaking their head in amazement- pretty wishy washy stuff over the past year. But- to me- that is the best thing about this forum....a safe place to learn and gain experience from people who know what they are talking about. So yeah- have I evolved? Yes. Have others evolved? I hope.

Ok- well, that was my confessional for whoever wants to read it. I will definitely keep the Glocks, you never know.....zombies, Red Dawn, and all..... However- at my level, my responsibilities, my life- the TDA is really the best option for me and in my opinion- the pistol carrying public***.

*** public- that means the 90% who never train or think about the gravity of what they are doing. So- pretty much nobody on this forum.

LangdonTactical
11-04-2017, 10:35 AM
Exactly. And as long as you stay off that trigger and get on it late and deliberately, they are great to shoot and easy to run. The problem is....when you don't. As long as you ALWAYS manage these triggers correctly, there should not be an issue.

Also....I will disagree with the ND problem not being a problem. These are statistics I would never rely on. You want to talk about under reported, hidden, swept under the rug, and generally lied about things in LE.....ND's. Unless someone gets hurt, often you get the hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil response. I agood example would be that it is now being reported the an ND occurred in the room of the very dead already scumbag from the Las Vegas shooting. One of the most horrendous, heavily investigated crimes ever committed in the United States with world wide 24/7 press coverage and it took weeks for that tidbit to slip out (and was likely a leak). Imagine what happens when one happens when deputy dumbass or officer puckerbutt lights one off in Nowhereville, USA? If it is off duty....with no harm done, not a chance. This is one I have very first hand knowledge of, and it is a very dirty little secret, and I have heard from very reliable sources that it is a major issue not talked about on the mil side as well. If folks think it is a non-issue, that is a choice, and life is full of them. If we want to make the case it is a massive training and software issue, we are on the same sheet of music and it is a choir I am singing with. I also subscribe to the idea that there is some hardware components to the issue, others don't. I have stopped multiple trigger presses after a shoot decision was made with ease. Two components to that, I was very aware of the press due to length of the finger movement, and I could very distinctly "See" my trigger press with the hammer movement. You do not often see me getting into a huge discussion on trigger weight, as it is not the main factor to me. It is trigger movement and a visible hammer that are the two big components that I have gone back to really liking.

This ^^^^ !!!!

NDs are a huge issue. They happen way more often than they are reported and there have been several high profile videos of people being shot by an ND in the last few years. I find it hard to believe that anyone would say it is not an issue.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNm_sOuEAT0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJf1Ku_F74Q&t=16s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEMmoQ1fegE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3UzjfYMfUw

fixer
11-04-2017, 12:01 PM
Folks,

Given the discussion here about triggers , what would be the recommendation if a shooter could not master a da system due to trigger reach distance being so long their hands were consistently shifting trying to get a grip that accomodated a proper placement of trigger finger? If same shooter is good with a glock (no problems with consistency in grip and finger placement) would you advise to continue with glock?

JustOneGun
11-04-2017, 01:10 PM
It’s true and appropriate when you have made the legal and ethical decision to shoot the target you are presenting to. That’s why we have to work with no-shoot targets so we don’t treat everything the same and build an autopilot to automatically go to the trigger unless the decision tobshoot as been made. If every draw with a TDA ends up with a finger prepping the trigger, we “hardwire” (TM Darryl and Wayne) the wrong thing.

I’ve spent a ton of time on TDA. I absolutely prep the trigger when driving the gun to extension - starting when I have made the decision to shoot. It’s important to understand the key is starting the trigger prep AFTER the decision process. That’s the point that doesn’t get stressed enough, IMO.


I think this is an important concept. I haven't pressed the trigger during dryfire in years. Because there's no feedback it is easy to develop bad habits and just mash the trigger in order to beat the clock. And as DB talked about, having most of the training draws with finger up on the slide can lead to putting that trigger finger there if you draw to the ready and delaying placement of the finger on the trigger until later in the press out. Many people have a very bad habit of trigger checking. One way to break that habit or avoid it if you don't have it is to do dryfire with finger on the slide.

I talked about people not having every even read the laws of their state, let a lone thinking about how they might play out in use of force. Another problem, and this is mostly LEO, but most agencies have some type of discretionary shooting. Some have great training. But they time the event with a timer or with turning targets. IMO this is where we get officers jumping on the trigger and then stopping/trying to stop in the middle of the press out. As an old fart retired instructor I liked to give my students permission to take as much time as they needed to see what that bad guy is doing. Taking the time needed and having a finely tuned mental trigger of when to draw or when to draw and shoot seems to me the best way to avoid any legal problems down the road.

Another way of looking at the above is keeping the subconscious procedures and the conscious procedures timed separate. And to teach them to the student as separate acts. The second act of moving toward the target(press from ready or draw) doesn't begin until the mental trigger is met to end the first discretionary procedure.

blues
11-04-2017, 01:27 PM
I think this is an important concept. I haven't pressed the trigger during dryfire in years. Because there's no feedback it is easy to develop bad habits and just mash the trigger in order to beat the clock. And as DB talked about, having most of the training draws with finger up on the slide can lead to putting that trigger finger there if you draw to the ready and delaying placement of the finger on the trigger until later in the press out. Many people have a very bad habit of trigger checking. One way to break that habit or avoid it if you don't have it is to do dryfire with finger on the slide.

I talked about people not having every even read the laws of their state, let a lone thinking about how they might play out in use of force. Another problem, and this is mostly LEO, but most agencies have some type of discretionary shooting. Some have great training. But they time the event with a timer or with turning targets. IMO this is where we get officers jumping on the trigger and then stopping/trying to stop in the middle of the press out. As an old fart retired instructor I liked to give my students permission to take as much time as they needed to see what that bad guy is doing. Taking the time needed and having a finely tuned mental trigger of when to draw or when to draw and shoot seems to me the best way to avoid any legal problems down the road.

Another way of looking at the above is keeping the subconscious procedures and the conscious procedures timed separate. And to teach them to the student as separate acts. The second act of moving toward the target(press from ready or draw) doesn't begin until the mental trigger is met to end the first discretionary procedure.

Excellent post.

In a similar vein, a few months back when I was training myself to draw and grip my Glocks with a thumbs forward grip, I purchased a Blackhawk demonstrator to aid with the conversion so that I wouldn't have to unload my carry gun every time I wanted to practice.

What I noticed was that even though there is no moving trigger on the demonstrator, I would practice acquiring my sight picture and pressing on the non-moving trigger regularly to see if I disturbed the sights in so doing. This started to concern me because I became worried that I'd teach myself the bad habit of bringing my finger to the trigger every time I drew my weapon...rather than waiting for the decision making process (however subliminally) to be completed.

So, I had to make the constant choice to draw the demonstrator, and acquire a sight picture before moving my finger to the trigger...unless I had decided in advance to draw and press the non-moving trigger to simulate such a circumstance under duress.

This experience seems to validate your well taken point quoted above. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that found this a serious concern.

BTW, the transition to the thumbs forward grip worked out successfully and much more quickly than anticipated.
(With thanks to some of my friends here on the forum for their suggestions.)

Robinson
11-04-2017, 01:43 PM
Exactly. And as long as you stay off that trigger and get on it late and deliberately, they are great to shoot and easy to run. The problem is....when you don't. As long as you ALWAYS manage these triggers correctly, there should not be an issue.

It's this right here that has me experimenting with Beretta 92s again for carry. Use of the 1911 thumb safety along with the 1911 trigger is pretty ingrained in me and I enjoy shooting them. But I recognize some advantages of double action pistols too. Within a couple months I will either start carrying my 92 Compact or just stick with 1911s and say double action was a fun experiment. Again.

Bodhi
11-04-2017, 03:31 PM
Folks,

Given the discussion here about triggers , what would be the recommendation if a shooter could not master a da system due to trigger reach distance being so long their hands were consistently shifting trying to get a grip that accomodated a proper placement of trigger finger? If same shooter is good with a glock (no problems with consistency in grip and finger placement) would you advise to continue with glock?

Which DA/SA platform are you referring to? They are not all the same in regards to trigger reach.

octagon
11-04-2017, 04:02 PM
I'll keep my comments directed at the LEO arena to stay in my lane. Since the goal posts have been moved from trigger discussion as it relates to stopping a trigger press on a suspect to any ND I should add to my previous post to cover NDs by LEOs in general. They happen more often then they should and definitely happen more often than reported. However my previous comment that everyone that strikes and injuries a person that isn't justified in being shot is going to get reported,investigated and discovered,criminally or civilly processed or otherwise known. There are officers who will lie,cover up or attempt to their ND but these incidents are very rare and almost always discovered. Again this is when someone is hit. I'm sure plenty of LEO NDs that don't hit a person or someones property or where there are no witnesses may very well go unreported. That doesn't mean the issue should be ignored but at least put into perspective.

Now for NDs that hit a person by LEOs. How many of these are there? Obviously there is no hard data but compared to how many times a LEO draws his/her weapon, arrests a suspect,searches a building or otherwise engages in LEO activity with a gun let alone a gun in hand I say the overall number of people hit by LEO due to a ND is tiny. AGAIN that doesn't mean it should be ignored just put into perspective. Compared to how many missed intentional shots fired by LEOs at a suspect but that strike a bystander I would say the perspective starts to become a little clearer.

Considering LEO training and the sad trend towards reduced training, ammo and administrative concerns for broader diversity of LEOs with even less firearms experience than the limited gun interested LEO that is currently the majority the perspective starts to become a little clearer. Agencies aren't likely to increase training time or budget nor are they likely to search for more gun interested applicants. Even when a negative outcome incident occurs and is known by agency administrators the common corrective action is usually the easiest and cheapest which may be firing or disciplining the officer involved and no other changes or paying a civil suit damages. Sometimes an agency chooses to go the hardware route and remove single action cocking notch like LAPD IIRC did or other agencies have done or started with initially (i.e all DAO guns) NYPD has heavy trigger pulls and some guns with trigger pull lengths not significantly shorter overall than some TDAs.

Add in the number of incidents reported and unreported, negative outcome ND and just plain ND without injury where the LEO did not decock. If the TDA has two different trigger trigger pulls, the transition between pull weight and pull length,requires de-cocking possibly at multiple points in a critical incident and training time and budgets aren't getting any better could there be a problem just as bad or even worse for a ND and possibly a ND that hits a person when it isn't justified?

Is the officer in the video LT posted who shot himself while juggling his gun from a pocket going to learn the TDA trigger pulls and remember to de-cock in a critical incident? Is the officer LT posted the video of who has the ND while holstering going to do the same? Does it matter what trigger system the officer who shot the man getting out of the car with hands empty,visible and occupied in lifting himself out of the car uses if he shoots,doesn't report it or address it properly and lies about it?

In the end there always has to be some balance between opposite factors and that balance has to take into account the context and both likelyhood and risk. I weigh that for LEOs to be balanced toward a gun that is balanced more toward getting hits,good hits and less chance for missing and hitting an innocent bystander,less complicated to shoot and manage in critical incidents over somewhat reduced risk of ND (if first shot or de-cocked) or in less common circumstances improved ability to stop pulling a trigger the LEO has started to pull.

I believe using what limited training time and budget would be better spent on developing good software habits of when and why to draw,when to keep a solid index off the trigger and outside the trigger guard on the frame/slide,when and why to point the gun at a suspect with finger properly indexed and safe gun handling when holstering or otherwise manipulating the weapon. Rather than on getting plenty of non gun interested LEOs to shoot well with TDA,remembering to de-cock and when and where they should de-cock before further engagement if a shot was fired and before holstering in the same type incidents.

I would keep hardware focus on quality equipment,security holsters and training with them and/or stress inoculation items. Hardware can help. I would never argue it has zero benefit. I just believe the cost/benefit ratio for it doesn't make sense. Given enough time,ammunition and quality training and add in more gun interested LEO hires you could issue guns with lengthy and heavy DAO triggers and manual safety and achieve even more added safety aspects by eliminating de-cocking and two trigger pulls while still having good critical incident accuracy. I just don't see it being anywhere near that point in the current and what looks like the future environment.

TL/DR My opinion is that if you can train LEOs to use a TDA to a safe level you can train them to be just as safe with striker fired guns. Training time and budget is limited I say use it on things with the greatest benefit.

Dagga Boy
11-04-2017, 06:59 PM
A lot of this we are actually on the same page. Two types of guns should not be handed out like candy of the popular service type pistols in my OPINION...Glock type striker pistols, and TDA guns. Both require a lot of dedicated software work to ensure fairly competent operation. One because of the trigger in general, and no visual indicator of condition or action, and the other because of the absolute requirement for sub conscious de cocking and a transition trigger. This is why I love the Law enforcement Modification on HK's hammer guns and some of the other companies systems are likely good as well, I just have not spent time on them. They can be shot well at assessment speed and have many of the TDA benefits and a simplistic finger on or finger off operation.
TDA has a thinking trigger when you need a thinking trigger and a shooting trigger when you need a shooting trigger. You pay for two excellent triggers for their individual purpose with a more complex post shooting requirement. The striker guns guns (not modified) generally have a good shooting trigger. I like both TDA and Striker guns for people who have significant, solid training. That is not most cops or citizens. I like LEM type guns and Revolvers for non-dedicated folks, or folks who are not used to working in a chaotic environment. All of these can be shot well and run well, although some are easier to shoot. They can all also be not shot well, but some are easier to not shoot. It's really pretty simple and is all about balance and real solid evaluation of needs and abilities. The last sentence is where the issues come in.

JAD
11-04-2017, 10:06 PM
Folks,

Given the discussion here about triggers , what would be the recommendation if a shooter could not master a da system due to trigger reach distance being so long their hands were consistently shifting trying to get a grip that accomodated a proper placement of trigger finger? If same shooter is good with a glock (no problems with consistency in grip and finger placement) would you advise to continue with glock?

If you can reach the trigger on a Glock 9/40 (I barely can on a gen 4, cannot on a gen 3), then the P30 will present no problem in trigger reach. If you want a better people management pistol than the Glock, the P30 is an interesting place to look.

MGW
11-04-2017, 11:12 PM
Iím in the middle of a forced break from shooting so it has given me some time to think. To put things in context I donít like Glocks but was interested in standardizing on one trigger system. After lots of experimenting and thought Glock seemed like the best way to go. A 34 for games and another 34 or 17 for carry.

I put close to 5k rounds through Glocks this late summer and fall and Iíve really grown to appreciate them for what they are. Simple, reliable, easy to get parts, aftermarket gear support, etc. I bought a 34 and later a Gen 5 17 and put lots of rounds through them. Most of the practice with them was for GSSF so lots of work from low ready.

I had two incidents during this time that really bothered me and have been on my mind a lot. The first was an unintentional double tap. This was early in my transition to Glocks after shooting TDA Sigs. I was really struggling to figure out the Glock trigger and was working hard to break the shot and get back to reset. I got a little too aggressive and broke a second shot before I was ready. Training issue? Yes. Dumb mistake? Yes. But it happened.

Second issue had nothing to do with Glocks. I was practicing plate rack runs from low ready. Still struggling with trigger control with Glocks my only thought was to get the slack out before rolling through the break. I hit the button for the timer, took my normal two handed grip and waited for the beep. It was at this point that I subconsciously did a trigger check with my index finger. I caught myself and stopped the drill but once again I made a mistake.

Iíve been down range. Iíve been through shoot donít shoot training. Iíve done active shooter training. Iíve been in real shoot donít shoot situations. Ive started a shot with an AR and backed out of it because the situation changed. I get it. Iíve always prided myself in not being one of ďthose peopleĒ that does stupid shit with firearms. And yet I made two very big mistakes in a matter of a few weeks.

So where does that leave me? Iím not sure. I have a lot to think about including how I train and what I want my goals to be. Iíve read through parts of this thread more than once and Iíve had some lights turned on. Glocks might be fine if I reset my training but Iím leaning toward going back to a hammer fired pistol. The biggest adjustment is going to be changing my training.

GardoneVT
11-04-2017, 11:43 PM
Perhaps my econ background colors this for me, but I have to make the point here that good training -regardless of trigger system- costs money & time. Doesn't matter if you're Joe Schmoe or Officer McTactical, no one dodges the experience tax. This is composed of direct training expenses, time allocated to training, and combined costs of regular range practice.

For most folks both in and out of uniform, that's an expense they can't afford. The first line item to bite the dust when public budgets get cut is training, and ordinary folks have to squeeze in gun training time between taking the kids to soccer practice and visiting the wife's parents. Problem is bad guys don't care about any of that; so what of the lawman or single mom who needs a defensive weapon but doesn't have the logistical ability to "get good" with it?

Thus we come to something like the LEM or Sig's DAK.

arcfide
11-04-2017, 11:45 PM
If I can introduce some muddying of the waters, this is a recent occurrence that really got me thinking about this sort of stuff. [Note: If this was previously discussed, I apologize if I've missed it. It seems relevant here.]


https://youtu.be/Zi7S4iP25o4

Here we have a situation with a few things:

1. A guy who didn't need to get shot.
2. A guy who sure looked like he might have needed to be shot initially.
3. Cop with a striker fired gun.
4. A shot fired that misses the intended target.
5. A guy who responds, not unreasonably, but in a way that some people might have called non-compliance if the end result had been different.

It's not clear at all that this is an ND. If the cop had not missed, this likely would have ended up in quite a political mess. I suspect that most cops are feeling pretty defensive about the political state of things these days, and so if the actor had been shot, I suspect that many, many people would have considered this a justified shooting.

On the other hand, in the end, it was someone who didn't need to be shot, and, very quickly after that shot was fired, the cops were able to determine that something wasn't what it seemed.

At the speed with which the cop decided to shoot, I could see an argument that a DA trigger wouldn't have made a difference here. It would have put the cop closer to that edge, but the cop reacted pretty rapidly to first shot. But then there is the issue of slowing down response in order to think, and I think a lot of people, cops and non-LEO would argue that they might not feel "safe" if they weren't pushing to fire their first shot that fast. It's also interesting to see the disconnect between observable reality and responsiveness both in terms of gun handling and verbal commands. The whole thing demonstrates a huge dissonance that I think illustrates the edges of the discussion here.

I obviously have no answers here, but I do think this video is an exact demonstration of a very tight line of responses where different training and different hardware would all have potentially had an effect.

CCT125US
11-05-2017, 06:42 AM
A thought I just had in relation to the LEM. If one trains to index their finger on the frame or ejection port on the draw, the length of trigger press becomes irrelevant (perhaps too strong of wording) in a way. If we label this index point as "A" and the break point as "Z", the finger has to move from A to Z each time the decision to shoot is made. The difference is, at what point along the way you make contact with the trigger. I guess this is another way to described the band, I mentioned earlier. If you contact the trigger at "E", instead of "V", you are given longer to process the time and travel of the trigger.

Chuck Whitlock
11-05-2017, 08:59 AM
Given the discussion here about triggers , what would be the recommendation if a shooter could not master a da system due to trigger reach distance being so long their hands were consistently shifting trying to get a grip that accomodated a proper placement of trigger finger? If same shooter is good with a glock (no problems with consistency in grip and finger placement) would you advise to continue with glock?


If you can reach the trigger on a Glock 9/40 (I barely can on a gen 4, cannot on a gen 3), then the P30 will present no problem in trigger reach. If you want a better people management pistol than the Glock, the P30 is an interesting place to look.

Fixer,
It's not that cut and dried. I'm a little better off than JAD, and was using issued Gen3 Glocks from '99-'13. The grip size (front to back) and trigger reach are on the large side for me, whereas I am currently using a Sig P250 DAO with the small grip module, which is a better fit.

octagon
11-05-2017, 09:03 AM
Dagga Boy what are your thoughts on Glocks issued with SCD installed to LEOs? It would seem to resolve your concerns.

arcfide Your example is a fine one for looking at in consideration to some points but it must be taken in context to what they officer knew at the time NOT afterwards. It is known now that the person didn't need to be shot because he was an actor but it wasn't known going into the initial contact.

Eastex
11-05-2017, 09:26 AM
If youíre enjoying and getting a lot from these trigger posts you might also want to go over to the revolver forum. Dagga Boys posts on the ďJ Frame LifestyleĒ are really great . For a civilian like myself itís as informative if not more so as these trigger system posts are . Its more about the mindset and software side of things. When I combined the trigger thoughts and the J frame lifestyle thoughts its led me to think a lot about my current system and Iím glad for it.
P.S the J frame lifestyle stuff is supposed to be in print sometime.....along with a book on classic gun fighting revolvers....not that Iím nagging or anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Frank R
11-05-2017, 10:04 AM
Provided it isn't a Sig P320 you drop it.

Give me a break.

Dagga Boy
11-05-2017, 11:34 AM
Dagga Boy what are your thoughts on Glocks issued with SCD installed to LEOs? It would seem to resolve your concerns.

arcfide Your example is a fine one for looking at in consideration to some points but it must be taken in context to what they officer knew at the time NOT afterwards. It is known now that the person didn't need to be shot because he was an actor but it wasn't known going into the initial contact.

I don't dislike Glocks, I have a lot of them and about a half million rounds shot through them and carried them extensively. I don't like them for everybody. The SCD is a good idea, and would be really a positive if issues to folks in the Acedemy on he LE side and they were taught to holster using it to a sub conscious level. Otherwise, you could install them on every Glock on the planet and 98% of folks would never use it.
I discuss the hardware stuff, but we are all on the same page as to software being important. Hardware can both enhance and also hinder software stuff. I am simply a big advocate of trying to get this stuff to mesh well together for the best outcomes, and decrease negative outcomes.

Gater
11-05-2017, 12:01 PM
Some great stuff here--many thanks to DB and other folks. DB, you mentioned in your first post that you set up your Glocks for more takeup than stock but with stock parts...if you don't mind sharing, I'd be interested in the parts combo you are you using. (apologies if I missed the answer in a subsequent post)

arcfide
11-05-2017, 12:43 PM
[MENTION=1336]Your example is a fine one for looking at in consideration to some points but it must be taken in context to what they officer knew at the time NOT afterwards. It is known now that the person didn't need to be shot because he was an actor but it wasn't known going into the initial contact.

That's why I think this is an interesting case. Obviously hindsight is more informative than coming into a situation. I think a major point of the discussion here, though, is that we can do things and train ourselves so that going into a situation we have more options and more freedom to obtain critical information and act on it in time.

I think a lot of people would look at the video I mentioned and think no further than, "Well, he didn't know anything different by the time he took his shot, so there's nothing more to be said." Of course, this misses the point. The question, for me, is more about how we improve our training, mindset, and tools to make us better. And in the above video, I think we can play with the scenario that it presents in the abstract and possibly come up with some improvements to our whole package.

For example, we don't know whether the officer fired accidently, ahead of his intent, or whether he fired deliberately, but we can ask ourselves how we might deal and improve the response for ourselves.

We also don't need to cut our analysis short by simply assuming that the knowledge available was static. The situation was rapidly changing, and there was a ton of information to be gained in a very short period only 1/2 to a couple of seconds after the shot was fired. Are there things that could have been done to enable that information to be acted upon that would have resulted in a net reduction in overall risk of people we don't want getting shot not getting shot? It has been mentioned above that we can adjust and think about how we time our responses, and that we don't necessarily want to move so fast that we can't think and process at the speed at which we are pulling the trigger.

My main point here is that people often make a lot of assumptions, but I think we should use discussions like these to see whether we might not be able to adjust our assumptions and lead to a better outcome. It's very easy to just dismiss things (I'm not saying that you are doing this) on the grounds that "we didn't know that at the time." But I think the better question would be, "How do we change things so that we can know more ahead of time rather than making decisions with less information?" I don't think we have to take the speed, timing, and reaction surrounding the first shot as a given. I think anything we can do, hardware and software, to improve our ability to make better decisions and improve outcomes is a good thing.

And in this particular case, while we might not have initially known that this guy shouldn't be shot, I, at least, would like to work on my training and equipment in such a way that at the end of the day, looking back, I don't shoot the people that, in the end, don't need to be shot. To me, a large part of that is figuring out how to maximize my ability to process, acquire, and respond efficiently to the most amount of information I can have before that gun goes off.

JustOneGun
11-05-2017, 12:46 PM
Perhaps my econ background colors this for me, but I have to make the point here that good training -regardless of trigger system- costs money & time. Doesn't matter if you're Joe Schmoe or Officer McTactical, no one dodges the experience tax. This is composed of direct training expenses, time allocated to training, and combined costs of regular range practice.

For most folks both in and out of uniform, that's an expense they can't afford. The first line item to bite the dust when public budgets get cut is training, and ordinary folks have to squeeze in gun training time between taking the kids to soccer practice and visiting the wife's parents. Problem is bad guys don't care about any of that; so what of the lawman or single mom who needs a defensive weapon but doesn't have the logistical ability to "get good" with it?

Thus we come to something like the LEM or Sig's DAK.


You've hit on the main problem with the argument. Having a longer and some like heavier trigger in order to be more safe. People like this not only for the reasons you state but because it seems intuitively correct. Because they are busy, not as much money, etc they default to hardware (a one time up front cost). This whole debate centers on two main questions: 1. Is the problem we are trying to fix/avoid a large problem the trigger will fix? 2. How much time and money does it take to have a software fix?

The answer to the first question is obvious but because we don't take the time to understand statistics and probability it gets lost in the argument. If I take 1100 people and give them a DA/SA HK USP and don't train them to keep their finger off the trigger and switch them to say a Glock what will happen? All things being equal we would think that they would have more ND's during building clearing and high risk stops where they might keep their finger on the trigger.
When Glocks first hit the market that happened. There was a problem. Over the years things got worked out on the transition side and that problem statistically went away.
And interesting experience that I had was after we transitioned to Glock I became and instructor. I was amazed and just how many people ran around the shoot house and FoF with their finger on the trigger. Certainly we had to have more shootings because of this? Nope. It goes up some years and goes down some years in relation to what happened with the HK. That is not intuitive. And it is a clear sign of what's not happening.

2. All the above would be irrelevant if your contention about not having enough time/money to overcome. You would be correct if it took 10 months and 10,000 rounds to be safe with a striker fired pistol. But we and other departments did it with 500 to 700 rounds and just a bit of knowledge.

How much money does it cost to change dryfire procedures to keep the trigger finger on the slide?(something that has more benefits than just safety.)
How much money does it cost to make sure we holster with the same safe procedure during dryfire as we do live fire?(having only one default holster procedure instead of two.)
How much money does it cost to read the state statutes of homicide, burglary, robbery, aggravated assault, assault, etc with the idea of what we can do with the pistol legally?
How much money does it cost to buy a book that explains state laws concerning self defense with an eye towards case law?($18-30?)
We could add to this but we get the point....


The biggest problem with the above that people miss is that if there is no spike in shootings, not only is the dreaded stiker pistol not so dreaded, but the other platforms done seem to produce the safety we want.

Dagga Boy
11-05-2017, 01:37 PM
Just went out with my training dummy in the yard and did some work on sort of a sub conscious straight presentation with the "decision to shoot" made and it was interesting to see how I have trained myself combined with experience.

My presentation in this scenario is straight to the target with my finger in index till the sights are on and confirmed, and then straight to the trigger and a press in a continuous motion taking he slack out and then pressing on the wall. I do this with both a LEM and a Striker gun.

With a TDA or a revolver I go to the trigger with no pressure on the presentation and then start the pressure as a smooth continuous press on confirmation of sights. I don't get aggressive early like Ernest talks about (who shoots at a totally different level than me), but it lets me at least position my finger earlier. Now that positioning is coming on the rise from ready, so it isn't like I am working at all with a finger on.

I think this stems from going to the Glock late in my career and being very aware of the trigger being different from my Revolvers and TDA guns. Basically a bit of rattlesnake treatment from the beginning of serious use (I briefly carried a G-17 Gen 1 early in my career off duty, but couldn't shoot them worth a crap, so it was short lived, also tried to brain a guy with it and it didn't have the same effect as my steel Revolvers....:eek:). I think this keys into education and understanding of how to train to a system.

OlongJohnson
11-05-2017, 01:42 PM
One thing I've wondered about, and have probably seen comments about, but not really hashed out in detail.

It seems like the force-travel profile of a trigger should make a difference. "Area under the curve" is how it's typically referred to. In engineer speak, the amount of work done (energy transferred to the fire control system) before arriving at the break. A low-force takeup with a wall at the end is significantly different than a more or less linear force increase due to compressing the spring the whole way through the travel and a minimal step or wall at the end, even if the actual force required to move the trigger the last 0.001" before the break is the same.

It seems intuitive to me that this should matter in flinch response. A person can apply a significant amount of force to a wall, over a short distance for a short period of time. But can they do a significant amount of work in that short time?

Does any of the literature regarding testing of flinch response get into this area? I am pretty sure I've only seen discussion of force level, not work done.

Doc_Glock
11-05-2017, 02:01 PM
Just went out with my training dummy in the yard and did some work on sort of a sub conscious straight presentation with the "decision to shoot" made and it was interesting to see how I have trained myself combined with experience.

My presentation in this scenario is straight to the target with my finger in index till the sights are on and confirmed, and then straight to the trigger and a press in a continuous motion taking he slack out and then pressing on the wall. I do this with both a LEM and a Striker gun.

With a TDA or a revolver I go to the trigger with no pressure on the presentation and then start the pressure as a smooth continuous press on confirmation of sights. I don't get aggressive early like Ernest talks about (who shoots at a totally different level than me), but it lets me at least position my finger earlier. Now that positioning is coming on the rise from ready, so it isn't like I am working at all with a finger on.

I think this stems from going to the Glock late in my career and being very aware of the trigger being different from my Revolvers and TDA guns. Basically a bit of rattlesnake treatment from the beginning of serious use (I briefly carried a G-17 Gen 1 early in my career off duty, but couldn't shoot them worth a crap, so it was short lived, also tried to brain a guy with it and it didn't have the same effect as my steel Revolvers....:eek:). I think this keys into education and understanding of how to train to a system.

So can I summarize that you treat your TDA/revolver triggers differently from your LEM/strikers on presentation in a decision to shoot scenario? And that you can subconsciously tell the difference?

Dagga Boy
11-05-2017, 02:41 PM
So can I summarize that you treat your TDA/revolver triggers differently from your LEM/strikers on presentation in a decision to shoot scenario? And that you can subconsciously tell the difference?

Yes. That sub conscious difference comes from being repetitive enough and doing things a lot every day for a lot of years. It is no different than my ability to switch very easily from using the paddle magazine releases with my trigger finger on my HK's and a convential magazine release with everything else without much issue. I do "try" not to make things too confusing based on how much I am training. Because I don't train and shoot nearly as much as I did when I was a cop, I do try to stay a bit dedicated to a system, Currently, it is pretty much a Beretta PX4 and a J frame Smith as what I am vested in and working. If I went back to something else, I would spend a bit of time working the sub conscious mental routing, I use how we operate our vehicles as an analogy to this. If you buy a new car, you will really have to hint about controls initially on thinges like door latches and window controls. The fundementals will stay the same, but some of the operation of small controls takes adjustment, but not very long.

blues
11-05-2017, 03:30 PM
Just went out with my training dummy in the yard and did some work on sort of a sub conscious straight presentation with the "decision to shoot" made and it was interesting to see how I have trained myself combined with experience.

My presentation in this scenario is straight to the target with my finger in index till the sights are on and confirmed, and then straight to the trigger and a press in a continuous motion taking he slack out and then pressing on the wall. I do this with both a LEM and a Striker gun.

With a TDA or a revolver I go to the trigger with no pressure on the presentation and then start the pressure as a smooth continuous press on confirmation of sights. I don't get aggressive early like Ernest talks about (who shoots at a totally different level than me), but it lets me at least position my finger earlier. Now that positioning is coming on the rise from ready, so it isn't like I am working at all with a finger on.

That's pretty much an accurate articulation of what I do with my Glocks.

I can't speak to what I do with my revolvers (at the moment) because I don't shoot them as often nowadays and I don't have the opportunity to test at the moment. It'll be interesting to check if, or how much my presentation is different.

Like you, I come from a revolver background, the first several years of my LE career carrying S&W Models 15, 19 and 26 on and off duty...and then transitioning to semi-autos...single action, TDA and ultimately Glocks thereafter.

psalms144.1
11-06-2017, 12:50 PM
That's pretty much an accurate articulation of what I do with my Glocks. Same here, and what I've been doing for the last decade of carrying GLOCKs are primary pistol. I HATE the fact that most of my shooters can't follow suit with their issued DAK triggers - if they don't prep the trigger during the press out, they yank their shots low and to the off hand every time...

blues
11-06-2017, 01:04 PM
Same here, and what I've been doing for the last decade of carrying GLOCKs are primary pistol. I HATE the fact that most of my shooters can't follow suit with their issued DAK triggers - if they don't prep the trigger during the press out, they yank their shots low and to the off hand every time...

I meant to add in my earlier reply that the reasons quoted by Darryl in his post account in large measure for why I ordinarily don't bother shooting the handguns of others when I train alongside them.

While it is clearly fun to shoot the other weapons...Para, Colt, CZ, HK etc. I shoot primarily to keep my skill level up with my carry firearms...Glocks and occasionally a S&W 642 or 686+. So while I enjoy the recreational aspect of it, I want to keep my mind and muscle memory attuned to the grip and trigger feel of my carry guns.

Obviously it's not a hard and fast rule but it works well for me and my mindset. Mileage will certainly vary for others in this regard.

octagon
11-06-2017, 03:00 PM
One thing I've wondered about, and have probably seen comments about, but not really hashed out in detail.

It seems like the force-travel profile of a trigger should make a difference. "Area under the curve" is how it's typically referred to. In engineer speak, the amount of work done (energy transferred to the fire control system) before arriving at the break. A low-force takeup with a wall at the end is significantly different than a more or less linear force increase due to compressing the spring the whole way through the travel and a minimal step or wall at the end, even if the actual force required to move the trigger the last 0.001" before the break is the same.

It seems intuitive to me that this should matter in flinch response. A person can apply a significant amount of force to a wall, over a short distance for a short period of time. But can they do a significant amount of work in that short time?

Does any of the literature regarding testing of flinch response get into this area? I am pretty sure I've only seen discussion of force level, not work done.

I agree. This is an area not often considered or discussed as it relates to accuracy, ease of ND and trigger pull in general. It is sort of like the torque curve of a VTEC Honda compared to a modern VW turbo. One is a slow gentle rise then a huge increase and the other is flat and consistent. They may both make the same amount of TQ but in very different ways. A gun comparison may be described to the masses as a Glock having a 5.5 trigger pull total weight but having the take up only take 2 lbs and the wall being short and taking the full 5.5 to break. Another Glock could have the same trigger pull length and 5.5 lb pull weight to break but using a combination of NY #1 spring and 3.5 connector you get a pull that is pretty close to 5.5 lbs from start until break with no light take up and wall just the same weight start to finish. Granted the examples aren't perfect but I hope it gets the issue across as I understood it and for others.

The reason I don't think it has been studied or applied for consideration is how it is measured. It is easy enough to use a trigger pull gauge and get the pull weight of any trigger TDA,DAO,DAK,SA or striker etc.. and have a number and be able to compare across platforms and to the same type of trigger mechanism. To get the pull weight at each mm or 1/16" or smaller increments is more challenging. The most accurate way to do this would be with a trigger graphing device.

http://triggerscan.com/pages/overview/trigger-analysing.php

http://triggerscan.com/media/TriggerScan_DoubleAction_lg/TriggerScan_DoubleAction_lg.html

A good consistent digital trigger pull gauge may give a courser measurement that could be graphed.

Here is a basic example between Glock and PPQ.

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/ppq/42639-graphic-representation-ppq-s-trigger-pull.html

OlongJohnson
11-06-2017, 04:57 PM
I've been thinking about creating something like that German setup for some time. I have access to the necessary electronics, just need to dial in the fixturing. I'd also want it to work with long guns. Looks like theirs might do that, as it seems to all just be clamped to a square tube.

It appears the graphs on the Walther forum are just someone's approximated conceptual drawing, rather than measured data.

Clusterfrack
11-06-2017, 05:28 PM
I wonder how long it would take people at my workplace to call the cops if I put some guns in the Instron. :-)

txhorns
11-16-2017, 05:27 PM
Given the multitude of LEM triggers, is there a consensus as to whether or not certain LEM triggers (heavier) provide a significantly higher margin of safety over others (lighter)? Specific LEM variants are rarely discussed in these type of threads.

I'm thinking of getting back into the P30 LEM game after a long break, what's the current cool kid variant these days? I sure see a lot more V1's nowadays.

Dagga Boy
11-16-2017, 05:38 PM
Given the multitude of LEM triggers, is there a consensus as to whether or not certain LEM triggers (heavier) provide a significantly higher margin of safety over others (lighter)? Specific LEM variants are rarely discussed in these type of threads.

I'm thinking of getting back into the P30 LEM game after a long break, what's the current cool kid variant these days? I sure see a lot more V1's nowadays.

I have used them all and like the V1 best.

Mjolnir
11-16-2017, 06:04 PM
Given the multitude of LEM triggers, is there a consensus as to whether or not certain LEM triggers (heavier) provide a significantly higher margin of safety over others (lighter)? Specific LEM variants are rarely discussed in these type of threads.

I'm thinking of getting back into the P30 LEM game after a long break, what's the current cool kid variant these days? I sure see a lot more V1's nowadays.

The "Todd Green" setup is my favorite: heavy trigger return/rebound spring, light firing pin block spring and the V1 hammer spring.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

11B10
11-16-2017, 06:06 PM
I have used them all and like the V1 best.



DB, it's really good to read this ^^^. I've felt that way ever since I bought my first H&KP30SK, which was a V3. I was so eager to get the P30SK that I took the first one that came in. It wasn't until I had dry fired it for a bit that I realized I had the wrong one - for me, anyway. Because my FFL is a saint, I was able to return it and get the V1, which has been my EDC ever since.

Bodhi
11-16-2017, 08:11 PM
I have used them all and like the V1 best.

Same. I will still choose the V3 DA/SA over it though. But I cheat and have the trigger worked over :D

JodyH
11-17-2017, 06:28 AM
Standard P2000 V2 for me.
The lighter trigger return springs of the other variants don't give me the reset characteristics I prefer.
I also prefer the heavier mainspring and firing pin block springs for a little more reliability cushion under dry, silty desert conditions.

txhorns
11-17-2017, 07:32 AM
I've tried V1, V2 and TGS and liked certain characteristics of each trigger but never dedicated enough time to pick a favorite. I always found that V1 was the easiest to pick up and shoot after a long break from LEM or shooting all together which is a big positive for me.

Appreciate the responses, great thread.

OnionsAndDragons
11-17-2017, 08:34 AM
I have mine set up TLG with a nickel flat spring. Quite happy with them.


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Cecil Burch
11-17-2017, 11:37 AM
Standard P2000 V2 for me.
The lighter trigger return springs of the other variants don't give me the reset characteristics I prefer.
I also prefer the heavier mainspring and firing pin block springs for a little more reliability cushion under dry, silty desert conditions.


I agree with Jody. I was running the v2 in both my P2000 and my P2000sk and it worked well.

Hi-Point Aficionado
11-18-2017, 10:57 AM
Whoever previously owned my USP compact converted it to heavy LEM and I dig it. Enough weight at the break to have some tactile reminder that I'm on the trigger when wearing gloves. Heavier takeup to make the break less of a sight-shifting speed bump when quickly rolling through a shot rather than staging. It's a lot like a longer Glock trigger so easing my transition may admittedly bias me.

Dog Guy
11-19-2017, 05:54 PM
I'm curious if DB's principle crosses over in any way to long guns. Is there anything different about the long gun platform that makes it any more or less suitable for people/threat management, given that we don't have the trigger options that exist in the handgun world? I'm not aware of any "long stroke" rifle/shotgun gun triggers, so I'm thinking that the potential ballistic and accuracy advantages of the long gun are worth the "cost" of the short stroke trigger in a highly stressful, dynamic situation. But, I have no experience to base this on. For those who have experienced or investigated OIS, or who have had the threat behavior change such that you avoided an OIS, can you comment at all on how this relates?

THANK YOU to DB and the other experienced posters who have made this an invaluable thread.

BobM
11-19-2017, 07:03 PM
At one time Mossberg offered a heavier trigger in some of the pump shotguns. That's the long gun I'm aware of that was marketed that way.

peterb
11-19-2017, 07:26 PM
At one time Mossberg offered a heavier trigger in some of the pump shotguns. That's the long gun I'm aware of that was marketed that way.

The 590DA1. The trigger pull was long and heavy, intended to resemble a DA revolver trigger.

http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/590DA.pdf

Edit: Interesting -- it may actually BE a "double action" trigger. Page 6 of the manual(under Firing) says "Cycling the action chambers a round and partially cocks the hammer. Pulling the trigger fully rearward completes the cocking cycle and then dropss the hammer, firing the gun."

LtDave
11-19-2017, 07:28 PM
Pretty sure Mossberg had a DAO trigger option at one time for one of their pump guns.
Peterb beat me to it...

ST911
11-19-2017, 10:14 PM
The 590DA1. The trigger pull was long and heavy, intended to resemble a DA revolver trigger.

http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/590DA.pdf

Edit: Interesting -- it may actually BE a "double action" trigger. Page 6 of the manual(under Firing) says "Cycling the action chambers a round and partially cocks the hammer. Pulling the trigger fully rearward completes the cocking cycle and then dropss the hammer, firing the gun."

Yup, I had one. It was DAO-ish, not unpleasant. That's been quite awhile back. 8 years? 10?

Hi-Point Aficionado
11-20-2017, 07:16 AM
I'm curious if DB's principle crosses over in any way to long guns.

The Ruger PC9 and PC4 had very LEM-ish triggers. While a two-stage single-action, the first stage had to deactivate the toggle lock and had some weight and extra travel to it before reaching the second stage break. Shooting one takes a little bit of getting used to as it really is a unique feel in a carbine but works fine once you stop getting distracted. While I realize that it wasn't designed to be a trigger style and was simply a result of a toggle keeping the bolt in battery, the result just happens to closely resemble my favorite HK trigger.