Sig P226 Drop Safe question

[Rmiked]

I have a Beretta 92 and understand it to be drop safe , even if cocked, because the firing pin block will still be in proper position until trigger pulled. I read the Sig 226 is also drop safe UNLESS you lower the hammer manually w/o using the decocker. Is it true that if you manually lower the hammer using trigger the 226 may not be drop safe? Beyond that is the 226 drop safe IF cocked, like the Beretta 92? I like the 226. Just wondering how the mechanism works. I understand it has only the decocker and no safety.

[ReverendMeat]

You ought to have asked this here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27130-Non-P320-(mostly-DA-SA)-drop-safety-discussion-(split-from-the-P320-thread)

Maybe a mod can move it. Now regarding the 226, drop-safety is not the issue with lowering the hammer manually (sans decocker), the issue is that to do so you must pull the trigger, which disengages the firing pin block and the sear's "half-cock"/intercept notch. So if you slip with your thumb while trying to lower the hammer and it falls it will hit the firing pin (due to not being caught by the sear intercept notch) and the firing pin will move forward (due to not being stopped by the firing pin block) and the gun may fire. Now, if you successfully lower the hammer manually, the trigger rebound spring will automatically move the hammer back to the intercept notch, away from the firing pin, at which point once you release the trigger (which you'd have to do to drop it, obviously), the firing pin block will re-engage and the pistol would be every bit as drop safe as if you used the decocking lever.

Now, whether the 226 is drop safe with the hammer cocked I couldn't tell you. I would assume so given the lack of incident over the course of decades. If the hammer were to slip off the sear (without inertia forcing the trigger fully to the rear) it would most likely be stopped by the intercept notch and the FPB would still be engaged anyway. I suspect this would most likely happen (if at all) if the gun hits the floor muzzle down. Muzzle up, the inertia of the trigger moving back would need to counter the mass of the trigger bar which moves in the opposite direction, as well as the pressure on the sear from the sear spring.

Hope this helps, and if I'm wrong I trust somebody can correct me.

[spinmove_]

Curious because I own a P220. It's a '97 vintage, so it should be fine. I'm actually more curious about if the SP2022 is drop safe or not. They're not super widespread, but I've not heard anything on those either.


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[Rmiked]

Will the 226 shoot with mag removed and round in chamber?

[ReverendMeat]

yes, unless you have a state-complaint model with a magazine disconnect, if such a thing exists.

[OlongJohnson]

yes, unless you have a state-complaint model with a magazine disconnect, if such a thing exists.

Yes, there are MA/CA compliant versions of classic Sigs. The disconnect is known for failing and disabling the pistol completely, causing it to fail to fire even with a magazine in. Similar situation to the S&W soul-leaking hole.

[HCM]

Will the 226 shoot with mag removed and round in chamber?

A standard P226 ? Yes it will fire under those circumstances.

There are some versions of the P226 with magazine safety's which prevent the gun from firing if the mag is removed. They were originally a special order item fo LE agencies which wanted them as a weapon retention measure, the idea being an officer struggling during a gun grab could press the mag release and disable the gun. These pop up as LE trades.

Certain state compliant versions also have magazine safety's to comply with inane regulation in places like MA and CA.

There are apparently at least two different versions of magazine safety in classic SIGs. The original design had issues and was replaced by the current design.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Curious because I own a P220. It's a '97 vintage, so it should be fine. I'm actually more curious about if the SP2022 is drop safe or not. They're not super widespread, but I've not heard anything on those either.


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No idea about the 2022, but there was a CA police officer killed in 2002 when he dropped his P220 in the station parking lot (http://www.odmp.org/officer/16325-officer-jesse-kenneth-paderez.) Subsequent investigation determined that he had lowered the hammer with his thumb instead of using the decocker. I believe this issue was addressed by inclusion of a hammer return spring. IRRC the way to tell the difference is the hammer spur is sharper on the older guns, while the newer guns have a rounded spur. If you have an older gun I don't know if SIG offers an "upgrade" to the newer parts, or if you're expected to do it yourself. I also don't know if the older guns aren't drop safe when the decocker is used, just that they can discharge if the decocker is not used.

[spinmove_]

No idea about the 2022, but there was a CA police officer killed in 2002 when he dropped his P220 in the station parking lot (http://www.odmp.org/officer/16325-officer-jesse-kenneth-paderez.) Subsequent investigation determined that he had lowered the hammer with his thumb instead of using the decocker. I believe this issue was addressed by inclusion of a hammer return spring. IRRC the way to tell the difference is the hammer spur is sharper on the older guns, while the newer guns have a rounded spur. If you have an older gun I don't know if SIG offers an "upgrade" to the newer parts, or if you're expected to do it yourself. I also don't know if the older guns aren't drop safe when the decocker is used, just that they can discharge if the decocker is not used.

The P220 is essentially a collection item that will remain largely a safe queen. It won't be carried in any serious capacity ever. The SP2022 on the other hand is something that I'd consider carrying, particularly through magazine capacity limited states. If it ain't drop safe, I need to know sooner rather than later so I can figure out what I want to do with it.


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[Treecop]

Use the decocker. I witnessed a veteran federal officer ND a p230 at a qual trying to thumb down the hammer.
When asked, he said he had carried the gun for years and never used the decocker. Thankfully nothing was damaged but pride and asses unclenched soon afterward.


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[John Hearne]

The issue in California was that the thumb snap on a new holster would not engage with the hammer captured in the safety intercept notch. The officer decocked using the trigger and kept the hammer pushed forward while engaging the thumb snap. These actions left the hammer resting directly against the firing pin without the firing pin lock engaged. When the gun was dropped and landed on its hammer, it discharged.

If you lower the hammer using the decocker, a properly functioning gun is drop safe in DA mode.

Similarly, in SA mode, the safety lock is engaged until the end of the trigger stroke. Unless we have inertia problems with the P22x series, the gun is drop safe in SA mode.

[98z28]

The P220 is essentially a collection item that will remain largely a safe queen. It won't be carried in any serious capacity ever. The SP2022 on the other hand is something that I'd consider carrying, particularly through magazine capacity limited states. If it ain't drop safe, I need to know sooner rather than later so I can figure out what I want to do with it.


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Sample of one, but I've been dropping a SP2022 in single action a bunch this week and I cannot get it to discharge. The hammer will fall up to 50% of the time, but it will not ignite a primer. At least this particular gun does not seem prone to inertia firing like the P320.

I posted this video in the DA/SA thread yesterday: https://youtu.be/lGpReWUFGR4

That's one drop out of about 20 trials with a live primer. The hammer just happened to fall on the first try for this one.

[spinmove_]

Sample of one, but I've been dropping a SP2022 in single action a bunch this week and I cannot get it to discharge. The hammer will fall up to 50% of the time, but it will not ignite a primer. At least this particular gun does not seem prone to inertia firing like the P320.

I posted this video in the DA/SA thread yesterday: https://youtu.be/lGpReWUFGR4

That's one drop out of about 20 trials with a live primer. The hammer just happened to fall on the first try for this one.

That's a lot more promising than what's going on with the P320, thank you for the test and the video. I'm probably ok, but I might tap a friend of mine to prep some primed and bulletless .40S&W cartridges and do some testing of my own to confirm. It's the only Cohen era SIG I own and if there's shenanigans afoot, I'd rather offload it than have something accident prone near my family and I.

[98z28]

That's a lot more promising than what's going on with the P320, thank you for the test and the video. I'm probably ok, but I might tap a friend of mine to prep some primed and bulletless .40S&W cartridges and do some testing of my own to confirm. It's the only Cohen era SIG I own and if there's shenanigans afoot, I'd rather offload it than have something accident prone near my family and I.
Fully understand. I carefully (and angrily) unloaded my 320's and put them in the back of the safe. The SP2022 is the only other handgun I own multiples of right now, so it's the lowest cost replacement as a carry option. Actually, it's the only handgun I've used in the last seven years that doesn't have any glaring shortcomings and I enjoy shooting it, so I'm wondering why I keep trying other handguns...

Knowing I've been walking around with a time bomb shoved down my pants (the 320) motivated me to sacrifice a 2022 just to be sure. Of course that doesn't mean that every 2022 is drop safe, or even that this particular one is. Twenty drops isn't a lot, but it's enough to satisfy me at this point. I think the combination of safety mechanisms and the longer trigger travel (even is SA) compared to the 320 prevents the inertia-driven failure that the 320 experiences.

[spinmove_]

Fully understand. I carefully (and angrily) unloaded my 320's and put them in the back of the safe. The SP2022 is the only other handgun I own multiples of right now, so it's the lowest cost replacement as a carry option. Actually, it's the only handgun I've used in the last seven years that doesn't have any glaring shortcomings and I enjoy shooting it, so I'm wondering why I keep trying other handguns...

Knowing I've been walking around with a time bomb shoved down my pants (the 320) motivated me to sacrifice a 2022 just to be sure. Of course that doesn't mean that every 2022 is drop safe, or even that this particular one is. Twenty drops isn't a lot, but it's enough to satisfy me at this point. I think the combination of safety mechanisms and the longer trigger travel (even is SA) compared to the 320 prevents the inertia-driven failure that the 320 experiences.

I can only imagine your frustration. I don't carry my SP2022, yet, but I'd thought about it a couple of times. I've only got one and I'm not heavily invested in it. If I find mine to not be drop safe, I'll probably offload it and fund something else. That something else will probably either be a second G19 or a Px4c.


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[Toonces]

Now regarding the 226, drop-safety is not the issue with lowering the hammer manually (sans decocker), the issue is that to do so you must pull the trigger, which disengages the firing pin block and the sear's "half-cock"/intercept notch. So if you slip with your thumb while trying to lower the hammer and it falls it will hit the firing pin (due to not being caught by the sear intercept notch) and the firing pin will move forward (due to not being stopped by the firing pin block) and the gun may fire. Now, if you successfully lower the hammer manually, the trigger rebound spring will automatically move the hammer back to the intercept notch, away from the firing pin, at which point once you release the trigger (which you'd have to do to drop it, obviously), the firing pin block will re-engage and the pistol would be every bit as drop safe as if you used the decocking lever.

I don't have a horse in this race, but Dagga Boy has a first hand account that seems to disagree with the above. Post #342 in this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27008-P320-drop-safety-issues/page9


Classic SIG.....I know that when police officers go totally against how they were trained and lower hammers by pressing the trigger and using their thumb to lower the hammer right on to the firing pin rather than using the de-cocker......those will go bang when dropped on the hammer on a driveway, or a marble floor.
O

[HCM]

I don't have a horse in this race, but Dagga Boy has a first hand account that seems to disagree with the above. Post #342 in this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27008-P320-drop-safety-issues/page9


O

Dagga Boy may be referring to the older / original style P220 with the sharp hammer spur. Those guns had drop safety issues. The design was improved in the P226 and the same design with a more rounded hammer spur was subsequently incorporated into the P220s.

[txdpd]

I don't have a horse in this race, but Dagga Boy has a first hand account that seems to disagree with the above. Post #342 in this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27008-P320-drop-safety-issues/page9


O

A hammer rebound spring was added, so even if the user lowered the hammer manually against the firing pin, the rebound spring would reset the hammer. This can still be an issue with shade tree gunsmiths that break the spring removing the hammer or don't install the hammer correctly.

[spinmove_]

So, I didn't want to de-bullet and powder a handful of cartridges to drop test my SP2022....but I remembered that I had some .40S&W snap caps stashed away somewhere. So I took a small piece of scotch tape and put it over the "primer" and put it in the chamber and dropped the slide. Pressing the trigger and ejecting the snap cap showed a nice little firing pin dimple in the tape. Perfect.

So I put another small piece of tape and proceeded to do a series of drops from various angles (approximately 10-15), including the infamous -30 drop, all in SA. The hammer did fall from SA a handful of times, but the firing pin never dimpled the tape. I then pressed the trigger on the fresh tape. Carbony simple where the "primer" was. It would seem that my sample of 1 SP2022 is also drop safe, she will not be sold this day.


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