Considering a Fight-Worthy Shotgun

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm thinking about adding a shotgun to the armory at the end of this year, and looking for sage wisdom.

I have experience with side by side and single shots, but not any significant pump action time.

Is there any reason to choose a pump over a 1301 or Benelli, besides the cost?

My thought is not really. I probably won't train enough with the pump to keep up the skill to the point where my failure rate pumping is less than the failure rate of a good semi.

The mission would be home defense, a travel long gun, and making lots of noise with badass holes at the range.

I'd really like to hear DB and GJMs thoughts, but any tidbits from those with experience on both styles would be highly appreciated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lester Polfus]

I'm thinking about adding a shotgun to the armory at the end of this year, and looking for sage wisdom.

I have experience with side by side and single shots, but not any significant pump action time.

Is there any reason to choose a pump over a 1301 or Benelli, besides the cost?

My thought is not really. I probably won't train enough with the pump to keep up the skill to the point where my failure rate pumping is less than the failure rate of a good semi.

The mission would be home defense, a travel long gun, and making lots of noise with badass holes at the range.

I'd really like to hear DB and GJMs thoughts, but any tidbits from those with experience on both styles would be highly appreciated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm a long time pump guy, but I had the benefit of both long use and training with a pump.

If I was starting with zero shotguns, and zero experience/training them, I'd buy either a 1301 or a Benelli. It's on my list of 'round to its when I get the time to devote to making the transition. I've got some experience running an 1181, and I can't deny there are definite advantages.

The only disadvantage you didn't mention is the ability to run lower power ammo in some semis is compromised. I think the benefits offset that.

[GJM]

If you already hunt with an 870, or want to continue to devote a significant proportion of your training focus on the pump, an 870 is great. Inexpensive, lots of mods, handles the widest range of loads, and very reliable. If you want essentially an AR that launches buck and slugs, go semi-auto. My list goes M2, then 1301, then Benelli M4, but that is based on my particular desires, such as a 14 inch barrel, and lightweight for carrying in the field.

[OnionsAndDragons]

If you already hunt with an 870, or want to continue to devote a significant proportion of your training focus on the pump, an 870 is great. Inexpensive, lots of mods, handles the widest range of loads, and very reliable. If you want essentially an AR that launches buck and slugs, go semi-auto. My list goes M2, then 1301, then Benelli M4, but that is based on my particular desires, such as a 14 inch barrel, and lightweight for carrying in the field.

SBS would likely be in my future down the road.

As to any hunting, I am fine with my grandfather's guns for that. I'm considering entirely for defensive and fun-shooting purposes.

Considering that I don't intend to lug it about the breathtaking wilds of Alaska, how much better is an M2 than the 1301? Since this will be a planned purchase I will have time to watch for used M2s if there is any value in that.

Aside from adding Tom's shroud, the 1301T seems to have most of what I want covered including a spot for a dot. Does it run fine with a +1 or 2 tube?

[GJM]

SBS would likely be in my future down the road.

As to any hunting, I am fine with my grandfather's guns for that. I'm considering entirely for defensive and fun-shooting purposes.

Considering that I don't intend to lug it about the breathtaking wilds of Alaska, how much better is an M2 than the 1301? Since this will be a planned purchase I will have time to watch for used M2s if there is any value in that.

Aside from adding Tom's shroud, the 1301T seems to have most of what I want covered including a spot for a dot. Does it run fine with a +1 or 2 tube?

If you want a short barrel, then go Benelli, as currently there is no short barrel for the 1301. Recently I posted this is the 1301 thread:

While I like the 1301, for a number of reasons the M2 works better for me. These reasons include:

1) availability of 14 inch barrels

2) ability to drill the fore end and add sling and light mounts

3) easier select slug operation, as I can chuck the round right in with the M2, as opposed to move the lifter out of the way

4) the Comfortech stock, with adjustable LOP Limbsaver pads

5) the four screw, Scalarworks mount for the Aimpoint micro

6) more support from OEM and after market stocks and barrels, and non-OEM accessories

[BigT]

I see a lot more reliability issues, user induced and other, with pumps of all types than I do with good semis, ie M2's or 1301's. I would buy one of those and rock on happy.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Yeah... I was pretty sure my brain was right, but I like to check with the more experienced when I don't have a lot of confirming knowledge.

I may hold out to see how that Aridus Magpul to 1301 adapter progresses. I could give up or postpone my dreams of SBS if I can get a good adjustable LoP stock for the 1301.

I like the idea of swift loading slugs, but not being in bear country, it isn't a real factor for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Yeah... I was pretty sure my brain was right, but I like to check with the more experienced when I don't have a lot of confirming knowledge.

I may hold out to see how that Aridus Magpul to 1301 adapter progresses. I could give up or postpone my dreams of SBS if I can get a good adjustable LoP stock for the 1301.

I like the idea of swift loading slugs, but not being in bear country, it isn't a real factor for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Small point, but I see the select slug capability as more interesting in lower 48, where you may be loaded with buck and want to select a slug. Up here, I run all slugs.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Small point, but I see the select slug capability as more interesting in lower 48, where you may be loaded with buck and want to select a slug. Up here, I run all slugs.

Would you elaborate for the less-experienced? I'd like to know more!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lester Polfus]

Small point, but I see the select slug capability as more interesting in lower 48, where you may be loaded with buck and want to select a slug. Up here, I run all slugs.

I'd have to agree with GJM on that one. If I was in Alaska, it would be all slugs all the time. In the lower 48, it depends.

When I lived in a suburban townhouse, I didn't put much emphasis on select slugs. Now that we are out on acreage, I do. In fact, during our little incident where my wife encountered an asshole lurking in the garage, I performed a select slug drill as he backed his way down our driveway. Some prior work with a range finder had informed me exactly where he went from the B-zone into the C-zone.

In your process of shotgun selection, I'd encourage you to consider whether switching ammo types on the fly is important to you. If you live in dense, urban/suburban quarters, it likely isn't. If it is important, I'd give some thought to how the choice of platforms affects the ability to do that, as each action has its own quirks. I can do it pretty rapidly with either an 870 or Mossberg 500/590, have never tried with an 1187, and know that it takes 3 hands with a Mossberg Jungle Gun.

[L-2]

I can't fault a person for wanting a pump-action or semiauto shotgun. I know I've got both types.
This question reminded me of this Clint Smith (ThunderRanch video from a few years back):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSLxxDWpOI

In the video, Smith shows working a single-shot break-open shotgun commenting, "I need to run the gun I got".

Whichever shotgun type ends up being bought, do try to get some expertise with it, whether it's shot selection (buck to slug); moving and shooting; reloading and unloading the gun; and the basics of stance, shouldering, and shot spread at a given distance.

Here's another video advertising a shotgun training DVD set you may want to obtain and view prior to buying a particular brand, model, & type of shotgun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XCv0X6SqUg

It's the older Magpul video with Costa and Haley teaching and showing how to run various shotgun types to a class.

Here's a current Amazon.com ad for this video: https://www.amazon.com/Magpul-Art-Dynamic-Shotgun-DVD/dp/B0044YJ0UE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502130261&sr=8-1&keywords=Magpul+shotgun+video

[OnionsAndDragons]

35 yds from my front door to the road. Unless I need to shoot a car, FFC should have my needs covered.

I will keep that in mind for when we escape the suburbs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[OnionsAndDragons]

There may or may not be a Givens shotgun class 5 miles from my house in a couple months...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

I have a ton of time on the 870, so I would never discount them as I have learned to run the 870 at a basically auto pilot level. With that said, it depends on a lot of factors. I am in process of working through what I am calling my "do it all" shotgun and the base for that gun is a Benelli M2 3 gun edition. It may or may not work out, but is based on a decision with a significant amount of shotgun experience behind it.
Based on a conversation recently with GJM....

If I went back to cop work, or wanted a very dedicated offensive use 12 ga. For hunting armed hostile humans in structures-14" Benelli M4, and it would have an Aimpoint Micro.

Home Defense dedicated first thing I grab at bump in the night.....My Vang 870. That role could be replaced with my Beretta TX4 if it ends up doing everything I expect of it at this point. Both will run Aimpoint H2's

Travel gun, General purpose, hunting back up, do everything....the nod went to my Benelli M2 3 gun. I am also shooting a Benelli Sport II for clay sports. Both are getting Aimpoint S1's.

I am also in the middle of a long term project with a Mossberg 500 that will fill a niche role as a covert/travel gun. Still a concept that will get done next year as funds allow.

[That Guy]

In your process of shotgun selection, I'd encourage you to consider whether switching ammo types on the fly is important to you. If you live in dense, urban/suburban quarters, it likely isn't. If it is important, I'd give some thought to how the choice of platforms affects the ability to do that, as each action has its own quirks. I can do it pretty rapidly with either an 870 or Mossberg 500/590, have never tried with an 1187, and know that it takes 3 hands with a Mossberg Jungle Gun.

With an 11-87 when you pull back on the charging handle, you (of course) eject the round in the chamber, and have the next one fed from the magazine onto the lifter. There is no Benelli-like disconnect that would stop a new shell from being fed onto the lifter. So what you could do is pull the charging handle back, roll the gun so the round on the lifter falls out, throw in the round you want to load, and release the charging handle. Which in my opinion seems easy to mess up, since you're fighting against spring tension the whole time (but it of course could be that I just haven't practiced enough). Or, you could do the "universal slug selection drill" - assuming a fully loaded gun, rack once to make space, load a slug round into the magazine, rack a second time to chamber the round. (And then add a second slug into the magazine, if you have the time.) You can learn to do this in a fairly short amount of time, and the whole operation is fairly non-finicky and gross motor skillish. (Assuming you have an Easyloader on the gun.) If there's space in the magazine you can obviously omit the first racking. Either way, I don't think there is any really good way of not losing two rounds when doing a slug selection drill, so loading two slugs would be preferred.

No idea really how that compares to other self-loading shotguns, aside from the Benelli.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[GJM]

This was my first run with the shotgun today, shooting three eight inch steel at 10 yards from the low ready, with my 14 inch Benelli M2 and high brass number six shot.


https://youtu.be/ZYb35RbTrCY

[GJM]

S1 shipping:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/07/aimpoint-micro-s-1-shotguns-now-shipping/

[Bigghoss]

S1 shipping:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/07/aimpoint-micro-s-1-shotguns-now-shipping/

Hmm. I'm getting an idea about what to do with that extra Mossberg 835 barrel I have...

[SeriousStudent]

S1 shipping:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/07/aimpoint-micro-s-1-shotguns-now-shipping/

Woot! I wonder if I can snag one in time for the HiTS shotgun class this month??

[GJM]

Woot! I wonder if I can snag one in time for the HiTS shotgun class this month??

I think Darryl got all in the country. :)

[SeriousStudent]

Well, perhaps if I promise to bring breakfast tacos and coffee, he'll let me peer through one.

[GJM]

FIFY


Well, perhaps if I promise to bring breakfast tacos and coffee, wash the Raptor, clean his shotguns each night, and ooh and ahh over his Beretta pistols, maybe he'll let me peer through one.

[SeriousStudent]

That smells like work.

[Hambo]

Small point, but I see the select slug capability as more interesting in lower 48, where you may be loaded with buck and want to select a slug. Up here, I run all slugs.

In the mid-90's HK owned Benelli and they loved select slug drills in their shotgun classes because it showed one advantage of an M1 over a pump. They ran the drill long enough that IMO it turned into a shot show of flinging out buck, grabbing slugs, trying to top up the shotgun, etc. I don't know anyone who had to do it in real life, but DB might. My point being that the ability to select slug easily would be down at the bottom of my shotgun priority list.

[Lester Polfus]

S1 shipping:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/07/aimpoint-micro-s-1-shotguns-now-shipping/

Excellent. When I start my Shotgun 2.0 project, incorporating a red dot sight will be on the list of things to explore.

[1911nerd]

S1 shipping:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/07/aimpoint-micro-s-1-shotguns-now-shipping/

What is the school solution on shotguns for eyes that are not red-dot friendly?

[GJM]

What is the school solution on shotguns for eyes that are not red-dot friendly?

Not red dot friendly in the carbine envelope out to 300 yards, or the shotgun envelope of most 0-25, with occasional forays further? Even with my contacts and glasses off, I see a 200 or so MOA dot, which while not aesthetic is quite usable on handgun/shotgun.

Open sights, a FO front bead, or ghost ring, depending on which work better for you, are the proven shotgun sighting systems.

[1911nerd]

Not red dot friendly in the carbine envelope out to 300 yards, or the shotgun envelope of most 0-25, with occasional forays further? Even with my contacts and glasses off, I see a 200 or so MOA dot, which while not aesthetic is quite usable on handgun/shotgun.

Open sights, a FO front bead, or ghost ring, depending on which work better for you, are the proven shotgun sighting systems.

Sorry, should have been clearer: astigmatism so that the red dot blooms. In some sense the shotgun equivalent of the LPV on a rifle, I guess.

[PNWTO]

I know this has been addressed here and there in past threads, mostly by DB, but what is the predominant thought here regarding slings on shotguns? I don't see the utility for HD or hunting, but I know some instructors require slings.

[blues]

I know this has been addressed here and there in past threads, mostly by DB, but what is the predominant thought here regarding slings on shotguns? I don't see the utility for HD or hunting, but I know some instructors require slings.

I don't know if I'm in the minority or not but personally, I prefer a sling on my 870 for HD. I like the option of transitioning to a sidearm or just not having to put the weapon on the ground if I need to occupy my hands with another task. That said, I can also think of reasons why they may be a liability in HD scenarios so I think it will come down to personal preference and justifications.

Not sure if there is a single best answer for this one.

[RevolverRob]

Sorry, should have been clearer: astigmatism so that the red dot blooms. In some sense the shotgun equivalent of the LPV on a rifle, I guess.

Do you shoot RDS with both eyes open? I have a pretty severe astigmatism in my dominant eye and don't have issue with red-dot blooms if I shoot both eyes open, otherwise I see lots of bloom.

If you still get bloom both eyes open - not a lot of optical options for shotguns. The one optic I kind of like in this realm is the Trijicon Reflex, the 1x24 with the ~13 MOA delta works okay for shotguns. A good friend has one mounted on Benelli M2, I find it very usable for practical work, it's not as easy to use with clays/smaller moving targets as a dot, but if it's a defensive gun, no worries.


I know this has been addressed here and there in past threads, mostly by DB, but what is the predominant thought here regarding slings on shotguns? I don't see the utility for HD or hunting, but I know some instructors require slings.

I once had someone describe to me the purpose of a sling on a long-gun is equivalent to a holster for a handgun. It's the way you keep control of the gun when (not if) you have to move with it.

PS: To the OP. If I wanted a fight worthy shotgun, I'd just let my budget decide.

<$500. A Mossberg 590A1 with Ghost Rings; add Magpul furniture, a WML of your choice (I tend to favor Streamlight TLRs), and a sling. (I'd probably go with Mossberg #50774, personally. The addition of screw-in chokes is worth it to me).

<$1000. A Beretta 1301 Tac, with a +1 Nordic Tube, WML of choice, sling.

<$1500. A 1301 Comp 21", with a red-dot on top, a +3 Nordic extension, WML of choice, sling.

<$2000. Either two 1301 Tacs or a properly setup Benelli M4 (maybe an M2, actually).

$2000+ an actual magazine fed system (modified Saiga, 3-gun ready Akdal, etc).

Eventually, I'd spring for Aridus Industries' Q-DC shell carriers for mag-tube fed guns and if a 1301, a button shroud to avoid accidental shell spillage.

[GJM]

To quote Clint Smith, a sling is to a shotgun as a holster is to a pistol.

[SeriousStudent]

I own six defensive shotguns, they all have slings.

[Lester Polfus]

+1 on the slings.

On a pump, there are certain combinations of thickness of sling material and gap between the pump and the barrel that will allow the sling to get sucked into the gap, so just be mindful of that.

[Dagga Boy]

Slings.....yes. The key is what kind. I have guns with single points that I like for a dedicated indoor gun, side mounted two point for a more general purpose gun, and I like how GJM will often have a standard traditional sling set up with quick release swivels to be able to remove the sling and pocket it when carrying in the wilderness. Like holsters.....pick the right sling for the task at hand.

[RevolverRob]

Single-point slings may work for you guys over 6' tall. At 5'7" with a 29" inseam, a single-point sling on an 18.5" 870 results in an 870 barrel smacking the floor...Side-mounted quick adjust two-points work well for me. In fact, I basically sling everything like a carbine.

At 35-yards from front-door to road you might well consider if you'd want to do a slug-select drill. 35-yards is right at the end of effective range for full-power buckshot (and in my experience, beyond what's reasonable for reduced recoil buck). If you're considering an instance where you'd engage vehicle-borne attackers at that distance, I'd actually start thinking about the shotgun the other-way around. You'd want to do "buck-select" drills, and treat the shotgun like a .70 caliber rifle. Slugs are just as effective at 3-yards as they are at 30. Whereas with buckshot it may not be the same way.

Just depends on how you see potential engagements going. Or if you plan to have both a shotgun and rifle as part of the system.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Rifles are covered, Rob.

We are suburban locale, and I doubt I would be anywhere near comfortable taking a slug shot from that distance to a car, into the backstop of my neighbors house. So the 35yds is literal from doorstep to the road, our driveway is closer.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Unobtanium]

Rifles are covered, Rob.

We are suburban locale, and I doubt I would be anywhere near comfortable taking a slug shot from that distance to a car, into the backstop of my neighbors house. So the 35yds is literal from doorstep to the road, our driveway is closer.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I find slugs much less likely to over-penetrate than rifles (not counting all .223 rounds, but indeed some of them, especially the barrier blind offerings, to include TBBC, Gold Dot, M855A1, and MK318, as well as Browntip/TSX/GMX)

[Permethrin]

...A good friend has one mounted on Benelli M2, I find it very usable for practical work, it's not as easy to use with clays/smaller moving targets as a dot, but if it's a defensive gun, no worries...

who the heck uses any sort of a scope/sight/optic for shooting clays?

[spinmove_]

who the heck uses any sort of a scope/sight/optic for shooting clays?

Not sure, but not me. It's too distracting for me as I find it takes me attention away from tracking the clay properly.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[GJM]

who the heck uses any sort of a scope/sight/optic for shooting clays?

Aimpoint sure is hoping people do with the new S1, as I am pretty sure they didn't bring the S1 out for the nine performance oriented combat shotgunners left in the country.

[Dagga Boy]

who the heck uses any sort of a scope/sight/optic for shooting clays?

Used to get that a lot with rifles too......and pistols. Simply incorporating newer technology. As a new clay shooter I am open to it. I have been running an Aimpoint on a defensive shotgun well before it ever became accepted. My 870 is the first gun Hans Vang did with a rail on the receiver and had an Aimpoint on it right from that point. People said much the same thing of "who uses a optic on a shotgun".....right up until folks have been in classes and schools with me and seen the performance. So, again, I am open to it for clays, as I know it is how my anti-personnel guns are set up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvUeY_J2mE

[Permethrin]

Used to get that a lot with rifles too......and pistols. Simply incorporating newer technology. As a new clay shooter I am open to it. I have been running an Aimpoint on a defensive shotgun well before it ever became accepted. My 870 is the first gun Hans Vang did with a rail on the receiver and had an Aimpoint on it right from that point. People said much the same thing of "who uses a optic on a shotgun".....right up until folks have been in classes and schools with me and seen the performance. So, again, I am open to it for clays, as I know it is how my anti-personnel guns are set up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvUeY_J2mE

respectfully, i perceive a huge difference in having a red dot on a clays gun vs. -

1 - rmr on my glock enabling me to reach out and take accurate shots at extended ranges.
2 - close-r quarters work with my sbr ar
3 - launching a slug or wanting quick acquisition with a defensive shotgun

the idea of leading a clay with a red dot just seems odd to me ATM and while i embrace new tech (often for the cool factor tbh), clay shooting to me is all about getting the gun properly fitted, getting fully used to a particular load/s and just swinging/pointing instinctively - works quite well with some practice.

[Permethrin]

Aimpoint sure is hoping people do with the new S1, as I am pretty sure they didn't bring the S1 out for the nine performance oriented combat shotgunners left in the country.

definitely interesting as a quick search shows that most of the s1 marketing photos do seem to show it mounted on clays or field oriented shottys.

i thought it would be picked up by 3-gunners but not sure how desirable it is given the various optic rail and direct optic mount options on the market.

[Wondering Beard]

Used to get that a lot with rifles too......and pistols. Simply incorporating newer technology. As a new clay shooter I am open to it. I have been running an Aimpoint on a defensive shotgun well before it ever became accepted. My 870 is the first gun Hans Vang did with a rail on the receiver and had an Aimpoint on it right from that point. People said much the same thing of "who uses a optic on a shotgun".....right up until folks have been in classes and schools with me and seen the performance. So, again, I am open to it for clays, as I know it is how my anti-personnel guns are set up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvUeY_J2mE

Hmm, so the S1 could mount directly on the rib of a 1301 Comp?

[okie john]

In fact, during our little incident where my wife encountered an asshole lurking in the garage, I performed a select slug drill as he backed his way down our driveway. Some prior work with a range finder had informed me exactly where he went from the B-zone into the C-zone.

Well done. In the words of Jeff Cooper, you had that fight won before it started.


Okie John

[Lester Polfus]

Well done. In the words of Jeff Cooper, you had that fight won before it started.


Okie John

Thanks. He's lucky I was home. He got to the "you get to look at the wrong end of my shotgun" point pretty quick, but never to the "I just pulled the trigger" point.

If my wife had been here alone with the baby, I would have come home to ankle deep shell casings and a grease stain in the garage.

[Dagga Boy]

respectfully, i perceive a huge difference in having a red dot on a clays gun vs. -

1 - rmr on my glock enabling me to reach out and take accurate shots at extended ranges.
2 - close-r quarters work with my sbr ar
3 - launching a slug or wanting quick acquisition with a defensive shotgun

the idea of leading a clay with a red dot just seems odd to me ATM and while i embrace new tech (often for the cool factor tbh), clay shooting to me is all about getting the gun properly fitted, getting fully used to a particular load/s and just swinging/pointing instinctively - works quite well with some practice.

I think the long time sporting shotgunners will fight it. Totally get that. For an up coming generation of shooter used to this kind of technology and sighting, and folks like me just getting into clays at an older age (versus golf...) who have been shooting dots for a long time, it is a good potential market. I think I am a good test case. If I get good at clays quickly with a dot with no preconceived ideas for doing this kind of shooting (other than it is totally different than defensive shooting disciplines), it may be worth looking at.


definitely interesting as a quick search shows that most of the s1 marketing photos do seem to show it mounted on clays or field oriented shottys.

i thought it would be picked up by 3-gunners but not sure how desirable it is given the various optic rail and direct optic mount options on the market.

Biggest thing for me that I have advocated for in the past....if you low mount a red dot on the barrel, it leaves the receiver clean for access to the ejection port for loading. It also lets the sight be totally sighted to the actual barrel, which is often removed and reinstalled for cleaning.

I am not married to this yet, but I am very excited to at least start testing the system with an open mind.

[RevolverRob]

who the heck uses any sort of a scope/sight/optic for shooting clays?

Umm...I do. Because I ain't so good at shooting them and leading with a big red dot is easier than leading with a tiny sight on the barrel.


Rifles are covered, Rob.

We are suburban locale, and I doubt I would be anywhere near comfortable taking a slug shot from that distance to a car, into the backstop of my neighbors house. So the 35yds is literal from doorstep to the road, our driveway is closer.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Buck it up!


Hmm, so the S1 could mount directly on the rib of a 1301 Comp?

That is the general idea. The Rib on the 1301 Comp is standard shotgun rib width and should accept the S1 just fine.

[Permethrin]

I think the long time sporting shotgunners will fight it. Totally get that. For an up coming generation of shooter used to this kind of technology and sighting, and folks like me just getting into clays at an older age (versus golf...) who have been shooting dots for a long time, it is a good potential market. I think I am a good test case. If I get good at clays quickly with a dot with no preconceived ideas for doing this kind of shooting (other than it is totally different than defensive shooting disciplines), it may be worth looking at.



Biggest thing for me that I have advocated for in the past....if you low mount a red dot on the barrel, it leaves the receiver clean for access to the ejection port for loading. It also lets the sight be totally sighted to the actual barrel, which is often removed and reinstalled for cleaning.

I am not married to this yet, but I am very excited to at least start testing the system with an open mind.

excited to hopefully see your thoughts develop on this - especially as it ties back to more serious uses of the gauge.
the barrel removal issue crossed my mind... lockup (re-installation) between the barrel and receiver of most pump and semi shottys generally seems a bit wide tolerance and non-repeatable, so can definitely see how a barrel mounted optic may be more optimal. definitely don't know as much as i'd like to regarding what in the shotgun overall system affects ultimate accuracy though - compared to something like a bolt action rifle using metallic cartridges.

i would put forth that it would be better for someone to learn the clay games without an optic and then dabble if desired, versus using the optic off the bat. I bet with practice you can get as good or better at most clay games (trap especially for example) without an optic as you would with one.

i do find that there is some crossover (beneficial) in terms of having a natural point of aim/lead developed from the clay games that then translate into some aspects of being able to pickup a defensive shotgun and take action RIGHT NOW.

it has definitely influences how i set up the cheek riser and LOP spacers on my magpul shotgun stocks for example.

thanks

[Permethrin]

Umm...I do. Because I ain't so good at shooting them and leading with a big red dot is easier than leading with a tiny sight on the barrel.



Buck it up!



That is the general idea. The Rib on the 1301 Comp is standard shotgun rib width and should accept the S1 just fine.

if you stick with the clay games for a while and your gun fits properly, i think you will find that outside of an occasional mount check (making a figure 8 with the mid and front bead), sights arent really relevant for most clay shooters - even the best ones.

[Dagga Boy]

Thanks for the thoughts. My future plans involve a lot of various shotgun activities both recreationally and as an instructor. It is my passion. On the clay/sporting front.....plan on doing two separate set ups. I have my Benelli Sport II and should have an S1 on it next week. My girlfriend and I also bought older Beretta 686's with the dull finish and 26" barrels that were made for a short time. Both are going to get professionally fitted to us at the Beretta Gallery here in Dallas and set up as traditional over unders and shot with traditional fundementals and methodology. Having a long history of shooting Benelli's, I really like the Sport II. My girlfriend loves the new Benelli O/U and Beretta is coming out with a new shotgun designed totally for women shooters. She will make a choice between those two and we will likely S1 that as well. We should have a good gauge between the 686's and the other guns with the dots to decide what is best. Like my experience with red dot currently on other guns....I think there will be absolute pluses with some things, negatives with others and then it becomes what outweighs the other. Like the shotgun, I was early on red dots on pistols. In some aspects I like them, others I do not. I have exactly one pistol with a red dot on it currently. My shotguns, the red dot for me excels across the board or is even at worst. That is why my serious shotguns are set up with red dots as a critical component.
GJM will be setting up an M2 14" with an S1 as well, so we should get some good data on them.

I am hoping just bolting on he sight will be just like this guy.....but I doubt it.


https://youtu.be/O-UM8w0fMrc

[Permethrin]

Thanks for the thoughts...

would appreciate a pic of the "sight picture" once you get the S1 mounted.
it is unlikely that I'll get to play with one in the short term and I'm curious as to what the view is like.

perhaps i need to mount one of my micros way forward on an ar handguard and collect some thoughts just to see what sight kinda picture i get.
or who knows maybe some weird visual brain processing trick will happen where i magically get a floating dot projected in my view - that'd be cool

[Dagga Boy]

If you are doing it right, that is exactly what you should get. That is what Aimpoints are supposed to do no matter where they are mounted.

[GJM]

I hope to have some experience with the S1 by later next week.

[coldcase1984]

Is Aimpoint selling a rib mount separately for Micro owners?

Just put a T1 on my issued 870 shorty w KE Arms mount. Haven't had opportunity to zero it yet.

[Lon]

Is Aimpoint selling a rib mount separately for Micro owners?

Just put a T1 on my issued 870 shorty w KE Arms mount. Haven't had opportunity to zero it yet.

I'm not sure that'll work. I think the housing on the S1 is different to allow it to be mounted lower than a T1/H1

[Exiledviking]

I need a recommendation for a sling for my late '90s M1 Super 90, please. The width of loops are around 3/4" or 7/8" and I can't seem to find any slings that are that thin at the attachment points.

[txdpd]

I need a recommendation for a sling for my late '90s M1 Super 90, please. The width of loops are around 3/4" or 7/8" and I can't seem to find any slings that are that thin at the attachment points.

http://www.strapworks.com/Double_D_Ring_Strap_p/dds34n.htm

Find the sling you want. If you can't cram the sling through the loops, buy some 3/4" camping lash straps, run them through the sling mounts to create a larger loop and trim to length.

I wouldn't recommend HK or mash hooks, there's enough recoil there that if one hits in the face it could get a little unpleasant.

[GJM]

My S1 arrived and I hope to mount it later.

[Permethrin]

My S1 arrived and I hope to mount it later.

particularly interested in how you will determine where along the rib is the optimal mounting location for you

[Chuck Whitlock]

Biggest thing for me that I have advocated for in the past....if you low mount a red dot on the barrel, it leaves the receiver clean for access to the ejection port for loading. It also lets the sight be totally sighted to the actual barrel, which is often removed and reinstalled for cleaning.

I am not married to this yet, but I am very excited to at least start testing the system with an open mind.


particularly interested in how you will determine where along the rib is the optimal mounting location for you

This is my question as well.

[GJM]

I mounted the S1 as far back as possible, while still ahead of the receiver.

[ScotchMan]

A few minor points in favor of the pump gun:

A wood-furnished pump action shotgun will be much less politically charged than a black scary semi-auto that will inevitably become "an automatic assault weapon" when in the hands of an ambitious public prosecutor after a home defense use. I think many potential jurors may have had a father or grandfather with such a gun over the mantle or behind a door and may not view it as quickly as an "assault weapon."

If used for travel which I believe was in the OP, a pump action shotgun should be legal in all 50 states whereas certain semi-autos may not be.

Assuming either gun will be kept with a full magazine tube and an empty chamber, the pump gun may be easier to get into action under stress, as it requires less fine motor skills to work with the fore end than it does to work with a charging handle and/or the bolt release which are both typically smaller.

If another member of the family or a house guest needs to use the shotgun, it is more likely they will be able to operate the pump gun than the semi-auto. If they've ever fired a shotgun it is likely it was a pump gun, and if they haven't, they might have the knowledge required to use one ingrained in their minds from Hollywood, in which a pump gun is always racked at every lull in the action.

[EM_]

In the vein of this thread, I understand there is much love for an Aimpoint on a shotgun to be used for defensive purposes. I use a PRO on my duty M4, and want to add one to my duty 870. Examining the costs of the micro series to the PRO series, it's a saving of nearly $300 to stick with the PRO.

Is there some advantage to the micro series other than a more compact size?

[BillSWPA]

A few minor points in favor of the pump gun:

A wood-furnished pump action shotgun will be much less politically charged than a black scary semi-auto that will inevitably become "an automatic assault weapon" when in the hands of an ambitious public prosecutor after a home defense use. I think many potential jurors may have had a father or grandfather with such a gun over the mantle or behind a door and may not view it as quickly as an "assault weapon."

If used for travel which I believe was in the OP, a pump action shotgun should be legal in all 50 states whereas certain semi-autos may not be.

Assuming either gun will be kept with a full magazine tube and an empty chamber, the pump gun may be easier to get into action under stress, as it requires less fine motor skills to work with the fore end than it does to work with a charging handle and/or the bolt release which are both typically smaller.

If another member of the family or a house guest needs to use the shotgun, it is more likely they will be able to operate the pump gun than the semi-auto. If they've ever fired a shotgun it is likely it was a pump gun, and if they haven't, they might have the knowledge required to use one ingrained in their minds from Hollywood, in which a pump gun is always racked at every lull in the action.

If you are traveling in a state like NJ that requires a firearms purchaser ID card for transporting a gun beyond strictly limited circumstances, there is a good likelihood that you have not obtained the needed card, and having the pump shotgun would still be illegal.

I have concealed handgun licenses from PA and FL, enabling me to legally carry a concealed handgun in 34 states. In at least some states where that isn't an option, a pump shotgun does not solve the legality problem.

[That Guy]

I have to say that I disagree with ScotchMan's views on the benefits of a pump gun.



Assuming either gun will be kept with a full magazine tube and an empty chamber, the pump gun may be easier to get into action under stress, as it requires less fine motor skills to work with the fore end than it does to work with a charging handle and/or the bolt release which are both typically smaller.

Err... "Yank back on that big ol' lever poking out the side of the gun" is just about as "less fine motor skill" as possible.

19162



If another member of the family or a house guest needs to use the shotgun, it is more likely they will be able to operate the pump gun than the semi-auto. If they've ever fired a shotgun it is likely it was a pump gun, and if they haven't, they might have the knowledge required to use one ingrained in their minds from Hollywood, in which a pump gun is always racked at every lull in the action.

I'd imagine the most common shotgun a non-shooter might have handled at some point in their life is a break-open over/under doublebarreled gun, not a pump gun. At least over here one- and two-barreled hunting shotguns are vastly more common than higher capacity repeating weapons.

And if someone is relying on Hollyweird to teach them how to run a gun, they are pretty much screwed, as I don't recall many movies dealing with unlocking the action, manipulating the safety, etc. Give a new shooter a pump gun and put them under some time pressure - chances are they won't cycle the gun properly. If giving an inexperienced shooter a shotgun, a semi-automatic seems easier to train. "To charge the gun, pull back on that lever and let go. Hold the gun against your shoulder. The safety is here, the trigger is there, keep pulling it until the bad thing goes away."

[Rex G]

A few minor points in favor of the pump gun:

A wood-furnished pump action shotgun will be much less politically charged than a black scary semi-auto that will inevitably become "an automatic assault weapon" when in the hands of an ambitious public prosecutor after a home defense use. I think many potential jurors may have had a father or grandfather with such a gun over the mantle or behind a door and may not view it as quickly as an "assault weapon."

If used for travel which I believe was in the OP, a pump action shotgun should be legal in all 50 states whereas certain semi-autos may not be.

Assuming either gun will be kept with a full magazine tube and an empty chamber, the pump gun may be easier to get into action under stress, as it requires less fine motor skills to work with the fore end than it does to work with a charging handle and/or the bolt release which are both typically smaller.

If another member of the family or a house guest needs to use the shotgun, it is more likely they will be able to operate the pump gun than the semi-auto. If they've ever fired a shotgun it is likely it was a pump gun, and if they haven't, they might have the knowledge required to use one ingrained in their minds from Hollywood, in which a pump gun is always racked at every lull in the action.

I watched several colleagues try to pump the action of a Mossberg a few nights ago, to check the chamber, and start clearing the weapon. None could find the action release, because they had been trained/familiarized with the 870 in the academy. So, I am not sure that a pump gun is going to necessarily be usable by folks trained only by Hollywood. (I cleared the Mossberg, as well as the AR15.)

I have seen colleagues short-stroke pump guns, since the Eighties, some of them repearedly during the same training day. Many were bigger and stronger than me, and I wondered how they could flub a seemingly simple activity, as I had never short-stroked my Ithaca 37 DS, my S&W 3000, or my several 870 guns, until I did, finally, after thirty years, or so, of pump-gunning, short-stroke an 870. Then, it happened again, on occasion. I developed a crisis of confidence. So, I am no longer so sure about the reliability of pump guns, because of the human factor.

I seemingly cured myself, by diligent dry-firing, and installing a shorter (Magpul SGA) stock, but the shorter stock messed with my accuracy, as the weapon no longer pointed as "naturally" for me. The ultimate cure, for me, is the Benelli M2 I bought late last year, or very early 2017, in time to train-up for the Stupid Bowl in early February. I had prior Benelli experience, with an HK-era M1 Super 90, which operated fine, but the thin-combed plastic stocks of that era were brutal, so I reverted to pump guns. Today's Comfortech stocks are wonderfully different, and I wish I had switched back to Benelli much sooner. As for usability by the untrained, it seems to me that pulling back, and releasing, an operating handle is something easy enough to learn by example, and if my fingers/hand are too injured or otherwise disabled to do it, I can use a boot sole, or any number of alternate/improvised means to accomplish the task.

Respectfully submitted, in a gentle "tone." :) My Benelli M2 is a way, not the way.

[That Guy]

I have seen colleagues short-stroke pump guns, since the Eighties, some of them repearedly during the same training day. Many were bigger and stronger than me, and I wondered how they could flub a seemingly simple activity, as I had never short-stroked my Ithaca 37 DS, my S&W 3000, or my several 870 guns, until I did, finally, after thirty years, or so, of pump-gunning, short-stroke an 870. Then, it happened again, on occasion. I developed a crisis of confidence. So, I am no longer so sure about the reliability of pump guns, because of the human factor.


Short-stroking a pump gun is very easy to do under time pressure. What I think happens is the shooter sees the empty shell ejecting from the gun and takes this as their que to slam that front stock forward.

I believe it is also quite possible to learn not to short-stroke the gun. I find Bill Drills work wonders. So, I wouldn't go so far as to claim pump guns unreliable - provided the user is willing to put in the work to become, and to remain, proficient in running the gun. But it does take some work.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Rex G]

Short-stroking a pump gun is very easy to do under time pressure. What I think happens is the shooter sees the empty shell ejecting from the gun and takes this as their que to slam that front stock forward.

I believe it is also quite possible to learn not to short-stroke the gun. I find Bill Drills work wonders. So, I wouldn't go so far as to claim pump guns unreliable - provided the user is willing to put in the work to become, and to remain, proficient in running the gun. But it does take some work.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

I am not disagreeing with you. My point was that untrained or improperly-trained folks can, indeed, be ill-served by a pump gun. The gun, itself, is reliable; the human operator lets the gun down.

In my case, the "improper" part started manifesting itself after about three decades of doing it right, though to be clear, my trigger time had decreased significantly as available real estate for unstructured shooting became less and less available.

[Balisong]

I find slugs much less likely to over-penetrate than rifles (not counting all .223 rounds, but indeed some of them, especially the barrier blind offerings, to include TBBC, Gold Dot, M855A1, and MK318, as well as Browntip/TSX/GMX)

Bit of a necrobump here, but would you mind elaborating and/or linking me to some solid info on this? Appreciate it mucho

[Unobtanium]

Bit of a necrobump here, but would you mind elaborating and/or linking me to some solid info on this? Appreciate it mucho

Sure, just go to LEVISTA. they have gel tests to back my statements.

[Balisong]

Sure, just go to LEVISTA. they have gel tests to back my statements.

That was really interesting and informative, thabks for sharing. Plenty of rifle and handgun gel tests out there but the shotgun stuff seems harder to come by. Interesting that the slugs seem to be pretty comparable to the 308 defense ammo in respect to penetration. I always figured a 1 ounce slug at 9mm speeds or faster would penetrate much more. Was also surprised that the buckshot seems to out penetrate the slugs. I always figured little round lead balls would lose their speed very quickly upon meeting resistance and therefore penetrate quite a bit less, at least compared to slugs and rifle rounds. Very interesting, though I wish there were more slug loads in their tests. Was also pretty impressed at how consistent the 75gr Gold Dot 223 across all types of barriers. I use 75gr TAP in my SBR, I gotta look up how that compares to the gold dot (although I doubt they did those tests with an SBR AR15).

Thanks again

[NH Shooter]

I can do it pretty rapidly with either an 870 or Mossberg 500/590, have never tried with an 1187...

Unless someone can describe a better way, the easiest most fumble-free method I have found with the 1187 is to keep the magazine downloaded by one round. When a switch is needed, load the needed round into the mag and briskly hand cycle the action. The trick is racking the bolt hard and fast, both backward and forward. As long as I do that, the new round gets chambered without hiccups.

The ability to lock back the bolt without pulling a round from the magazine would be high on my wanted feature list for a new SG.

[jellydonut]

Unless someone can describe a better way, the easiest most fumble-free method I have found with the 1187 is to keep the magazine downloaded by one round. When a switch is needed, load the needed round into the mag and briskly hand cycle the action. The trick is racking the bolt hard and fast, both backward and forward. As long as I do that, the new round gets chambered without hiccups.

The ability to lock back the bolt without pulling a round from the magazine would be high on my wanted feature list for a new SG.

For slug changeovers, nothing beats the Benelli user interface. Get an M2 or an M4 depending on budget, and go to town.

The gun acts differently depending on whether it is cocked or not. If it's cocked, you can run the bolt all day long and it will not feed from the magazine tube unless you push the little red button (the cartridge drop lever) in order to make it do so. This means you can just drag the bolt back, drop a slug into the ejection port, and release it forward. The bolt does not lock when operated this way, but it's faster when it doesn't lock back anyway.

[Totem Polar]

If I can butt in for a sec here, since the "pro tips" seem to be collecting in this thread, is there anything that a newly left-handed long gun shooter needs to consider in selecting a "fight-worthy shotgun?"

I’ve already heard back from TCinVA on the 1301, and am leaning that direction, but upfront: best social shotty for left side shooting?

Thanks in advance, folks.