Can I speed up without a timer?

[SC_Dave]

For the purpose of this thread I'm not necessarily talking about split's although split's are important. More-so shortening the time between going from concealment to 1, 2 or 3 shots on target.

I have put off buying a timer and I don't know why. It makes sense that if you can't measure it, you cant manage it. In my frame of reference can I speed up without one?

With or without a timer How/Where should I start.

Other Info FWIW

AIWB
G-19 w/RMR
Right Handed
Cover garment 95% of the time is a t-shirt

SCD

[spinmove_]

Surefire makes an app that is a timer and allows you to work on doing drills both live and dry to do par times against. That's better than nothing, but a real and dedicated timer is definitely better.

You have a G19 with an RMR and SCD. Is there a reason why you can afford those things and not a timer?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[LittleLebowski]

Yes, if you have a dedicated training buddy. However, you need a timer.

[breakingtime91]

I would say yes but without real accountability of skill. You can do cadence, such as 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5. Then speed up to 1, 2, 3, 4,5. That helps manage speed but once again, to see how consistent you are, you need a timer.

[voodoo_man]

https://i.imgflip.com/1tkhhm.jpg

[breakingtime91]

https://i.imgflip.com/1tkhhm.jpg

wouldnt the ideal* be to have a video camera and a timer?

[voodoo_man]

wouldnt the ideal* be to have a video camera and a timer?

If you are doing a long training session (like 30 mins or so) I'd suggest getting an app like kinemaster or something of that nature to break it down to the milaseconds and then you just slow play through it and you get your times.

The point of the timer isn't as much as the time itself, though it helps, its the beep when not on a range. You can get an app, or a program on your computer, or alexa or whatever else to do it for you.

[BN]

I have put off buying a timer and I don't know why. It makes sense that if you can't measure it, you cant manage it. In my frame of reference can I speed up without one?

How will you know if you have gotten faster without a timer??

[41magfan]

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. You obviously need a timer to measure your performance against an established standard or time constraint, but I happen to believe that you can do a lot of meaningful practice without a timer if all you're trying to do in improve your overall skill.

If we can agree that the goal of all shooting is about hitting, then practice that as a mindset when you go to the range. Regardless of the target you’re shooting; the A-Zone, a paper plate, a B8 center, a 2” dot, whatever ….. THE GOAL IS TO NEVER MISS. Misses are failures - pure and simple.

So, regardless of what you’re working on i.e. presentations from the holster, from low ready, single shots, controlled pairs, Bill Drills, whatever …. push yourself on speed until the wheels fall off and you miss. Repeat the exercise and then slow down just enough to hit again. Repeat this process over and over; every time you go to the range for every drill. You’ll soon learn where YOUR limits are.

Most of our shooting disciplines fail to emphasize hitting, as the penalties for misses aren’t severe enough. All shooting should be about hitting, and on a square range with no dynamic stressors at play – you should strive for NO MISSES.

Shooting fast is fairly irrelevant if you can’t discipline yourself to hit 100% of the time in the benign atmosphere of a static range. The truth is, in real-life most people feel compelled to shoot fast without having any idea where the wheels will fall off …… with predictable results.

A timer for most of us is largely a tool that enables us to only remember our best performances - not our true abilities. If you will view a timer as simply a means to an end and not the end itself, it will be more useful to you in the end.

Just one man's opinion - YMMV.

[spinmove_]

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. You obviously need a timer to measure your performance against an established standard or time constraint, but I happen to believe that you can do a lot of meaningful practice without a timer if all you're trying to do in improve your overall skill.

If we can agree that the goal of all shooting is about hitting, then practice that as a mindset when you go to the range. Regardless of the target you’re shooting; the A-Zone, a paper plate, a B8 center, a 2” dot, whatever ….. THE GOAL IS TO NEVER MISS. Misses are failures - pure and simple.

So, regardless of what you’re working on i.e. presentations from the holster, from low ready, single shots, controlled pairs, Bill Drills, whatever …. push yourself on speed until the wheels fall off and you miss. Repeat the exercise and then slow down just enough to hit again. Repeat this process over and over; every time you go to the range for every drill. You’ll soon learn where YOUR limits are.

Most of our shooting disciplines fail to emphasize hitting, as the penalties for misses aren’t severe enough. All shooting should be about hitting, and on a square range with no dynamic stressors at play – you should strive for NO MISSES.

Shooting fast is fairly irrelevant if you can’t discipline yourself to hit 100% of the time in the benign atmosphere of a static range. The truth is, in real-life most people feel compelled to shoot fast without having any idea where the wheels will fall off …… with predictable results.

A timer for most of us is largely a tool that enables us to only remember our best performances - not our true abilities. If you will view a timer as simply a means to an end and not the end itself, it will be more useful to you in the end.

Just one man's opinion - YMMV.

For the most part I agree. However, having the hard numbers allows you to establish your baselines definitively, gives you a means to establish realistic goals, and gives you a way to consistently measure your progress. Of course we should be striving to never miss, but we should also be striving to never miss AND be faster at the same time.

Do you shoot at all black targets at a distance and never count your hits ever? Of course not, your hits show you exactly how you're doing regardless of feel. The timer does the exact same thing for speed. Less than the cost of a case of ammo buys you a good quality timer. Buy the timer and use the ammo more effectively in practice.

EDIT - For the record I'm not happy unless all my shots are A zone hits regardless of how fast I'm going. Mistakes and random flyers will happen, but if half my hits are outside of the A zone, then what good did going that fast do unless I'm just trying to push myself to failure?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[JustOneGun]

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. You obviously need a timer to measure your performance against an established standard or time constraint, but I happen to believe that you can do a lot of meaningful practice without a timer if all you're trying to do in improve your overall skill.

If we can agree that the goal of all shooting is about hitting, then practice that as a mindset when you go to the range. Regardless of the target you’re shooting; the A-Zone, a paper plate, a B8 center, a 2” dot, whatever ….. THE GOAL IS TO NEVER MISS. Misses are failures - pure and simple.

So, regardless of what you’re working on i.e. presentations from the holster, from low ready, single shots, controlled pairs, Bill Drills, whatever …. push yourself on speed until the wheels fall off and you miss. Repeat the exercise and then slow down just enough to hit again. Repeat this process over and over; every time you go to the range for every drill. You’ll soon learn where YOUR limits are.

Most of our shooting disciplines fail to emphasize hitting, as the penalties for misses aren’t severe enough. All shooting should be about hitting, and on a square range with no dynamic stressors at play – you should strive for NO MISSES.

Shooting fast is fairly irrelevant if you can’t discipline yourself to hit 100% of the time in the benign atmosphere of a static range. The truth is, in real-life most people feel compelled to shoot fast without having any idea where the wheels will fall off …… with predictable results.

A timer for most of us is largely a tool that enables us to only remember our best performances - not our true abilities. If you will view a timer as simply a means to an end and not the end itself, it will be more useful to you in the end.

Just one man's opinion - YMMV.

I agree with a lot of this. But I think it is more of the timer not being used well. Once a person is keeping their rounds during slow fire on a reasonable target (6"/8") then I like to see every round timed. At first they will make the easy gains on the timer and then those increases will slow down. I remind people that the purpose of timing every round isn't just the fast. But I am also a strong proponent of chaos/interleaved training. That type of training actually inhibits one's fastest time. But what it does show is the time of your screw ups. For me fixing the bottom line is better than having a world record time.

Both are important but IMO raising the bottom end of one's time is the most important.

[GJM]

Hit factor scoring, which makes sense for games and self defense, combines accuracy and time. Training without a timer or other way of accurately measuring your time, makes no more sense than training without scoring your hits.

[SC_Dave]

I have no shooting partner, therefore I have no one to push me, compete against or watch what I'm doing wrong. The only place I have to shoot is at an older indoor range and due to the lack of any extra room it's difficult to set up a tripod for a camera/phone to record myself. So it sounds like a timer would be my competition and force me to figure out what I may need to do to become faster. I shoot 1 a week. 150 rounds each trip. Not a lot compared to some. I don't shoot matches, I just want to get better for my own satisfaction of accomplishment.

Like everyone else if I go slow enough I can get acceptable (for me) hits at certain distances. Obviously the further the distance, the smaller the target the less likely I am to get consistent hits. So for the distances that I'm getting consistent hits I don't want to fall into the trap of going slow (relative term) because I know I can get my hits thus never pushing myself to get faster. Keeping in mind as mentioned above that speed means nothing if you miss.

SCD

[GJM]

Here is some Robbie Leatham wisdom. Common advice is speed up until you start missing, then slow down. His advice is different -- to go faster and faster until your shots get wild, then see the pattern of your errant shots, and fix the problem causing the problem. Proceed on, faster, until you fall off the tracks again, examine/fix and proceed.

Also, his advice to make progress as you get better, is to "live in the gray" for a significant portion of your practice time, as that is where the gains are made. At the same time, build a speed control, so you can on demand shoot at whatever pace makes sense for your accuracy and speed requirement of the moment.

[JustOneGun]

I have no shooting partner, therefore I have no one to push me, compete against or watch what I'm doing wrong. The only place I have to shoot is at an older indoor range and due to the lack of any extra room it's difficult to set up a tripod for a camera/phone to record myself. So it sounds like a timer would be my competition and force me to figure out what I may need to do to become faster. I shoot 1 a week. 150 rounds each trip. Not a lot compared to some. I don't shoot matches, I just want to get better for my own satisfaction of accomplishment.

Like everyone else if I go slow enough I can get acceptable (for me) hits at certain distances. Obviously the further the distance, the smaller the target the less likely I am to get consistent hits. So for the distances that I'm getting consistent hits I don't want to fall into the trap of going slow (relative term) because I know I can get my hits thus never pushing myself to get faster. Keeping in mind as mentioned above that speed means nothing if you miss.

SCD



To me your situation cries out out for a bit of competition. Adds a bit of pressure, they will time you and you get to shoot, move and manipulate the pistol. If you're not into competition I think it still has merit. Think of it as a test. I also think the best thing a shooter can do is get a trainer (someone to watch you from time to time and give suggestions). Second best thing is to find a place to shoot outside with a timer (desert, forest, blm, etc.) Sometimes a range will allow you to shoot and move on a range if you're part of the competition at that club.

[Peally]

They're only 100 bucks, and yes they're required if you want to really improve. Phone apps aren't a substitute beyond temporary dry fire.

[okie john]

Timers matter because our sense of speed isn’t reliable: we can think we’re fast when we’re slow and vice versa. A timer puts numbers on speed and it doesn’t lie. It’s the equivalent of scoring rings on a target.

Your gear shows that you’ve made significant investments to follow smart trends. I’m not sure that wondering whether you can get faster without a timer is the right question. A better question might be “Why have you put off buying a timer for so long when it’s widely considered a key part of understanding and improving performance?”


Okie John

[BWT]

I'd agree that timers help you quantify progress.

I generally have a great sense of time; I can kind of keep time in my mind most of the time.

But, when doing athletic activities for short periods of time (maybe a few seconds). It's hard to quantify.

If you're looking to build skill; I'd recommend a timer because progress can be slow.

You can encourage yourself (because progress can be very small and hard to perceive. Therefore discouraging.) or identify areas to work on by looking at your results. Maybe you shave off .05 off your splits at 10 yards and close by consistent practice (going from like .28 to .25). That's huge but not noticeable to the human mind.

I'd buy a timer from Brownells because they have a lifetime replacement policy and their timers get broken. That advice came from a highly respected forum member. I'd also buy this book (https://www.amazon.com/Dry-Fire-Training-Practical-Pistol-Shooter/dp/1497319633) and start doing drills. I have that book and it's great.

Ben Stoeger and Bob Vogel both emphasize dry fire very heavily.

Now if only I did those things...

God Bless,

Brandon

[SC_Dave]

I'd agree that timers help you quantify progress.

I generally have a great sense of time; I can kind of keep time in my mind most of the time.

But, when doing athletic activities for short periods of time (maybe a few seconds). It's hard to quantify.

If you're looking to build skill; I'd recommend a timer because progress can be slow.

You can encourage yourself (because progress can be very small and hard to perceive. Therefore discouraging.) or identify areas to work on by looking at your results. Maybe you shave off .05 off your splits at 10 yards and close by consistent practice (going from like .28 to .25). That's huge but not noticeable to the human mind.

I'd buy a timer from Brownells because they have a lifetime replacement policy and their timers get broken. That advice came from a highly respected forum member. I'd also buy this book (https://www.amazon.com/Dry-Fire-Training-Practical-Pistol-Shooter/dp/1497319633) and start doing drills. I have that book and it's great.

Ben Stoeger and Bob Vogel both emphasize dry fire very heavily.

Now if only I did those things...

God Bless,

Brandon

All good information. From everyone. I ordered a Pact II from Brownell's. So it'll soon be time to do work.

SCD

[Surf]

It is a good investment Dave and I am sure you will be happy. Combine video with a timer and you can make some excellent strides with self diagnostics and improving technique and speed. Of course we should look to improve technique first and foremost which will inherently make you faster. After which learning to be faster via a timer and seeing where we can make improvements. You already understand this but splits are not where we really need to be concentrating and are often quite meaningless in the scope of things. It is all the peripheral things that make us more efficient and ultimately faster. As an example shooting the FAST drill isn't so much about splits but making up time first comes from draw speed and reload times. The timer is great for giving hard numbers to verify our modifications to our techniques.

[Cheap Shot]

For the purpose of this thread I'm not necessarily talking about split's although split's are important. More-so shortening the time between going from concealment to 1, 2 or 3 shots on target.

I have put off buying a timer and I don't know why. It makes sense that if you can't measure it, you cant manage it. In my frame of reference can I speed up without one?

With or without a timer How/Where should I start.

Other Info FWIW

AIWB
G-19 w/RMR
Right Handed
Cover garment 95% of the time is a t-shirt

SCD

No

[SC_Dave]

I remembered today that my son has a GoPro. With its somewhat wide angle lens I may be able to video myself in the cramped lanes at the range.

[SC_Dave]

Follow-up Post. Please remember I am not and experienced shooter.

Used the Pact II timer at the range yesterday for the first time. I have never been on a timer before so the times apply to me and should not be applied against any other shooters times because I am slow! But, that's what a timer is for I guess, to see where you are and track progress.

Target was a paper saucer about 6-1/2 inches in diameter at 7 yards. I know, I'm cheap but they hold up well.

I started slow with no timer to get my motion down. Then I set the PAR for 3 seconds. Pretty slow I know but I was able to get one shot on target at about 2.5 or 6. Moved the PAR down to 2.5 and cut it a little more. At the end of the trip I was able to get under 2 seconds consistently, with my best time at 1.86. As you can see I still have work to do and this timer challenges me in a way I was not getting.

I also shot video of myself and can see I need to work on two things in particular. 1 Clearing the cover garment. 2 Getting the correct purchase on the grip.

Thanks to everyone who urged me to get the timer. It's a good investment.

[okie john]

There's nothing wrong with those times, especially from concealment. You're a lot faster than you think, and now that you've quantified your speed, you can begin to improve it. Now the trick is not letting accuracy slip because you've become a slave to the timer. Wayne Dobbs and DB have made some great posts on that.


Okie John

[JustOneGun]

Good post. It sounds like you have a good plan to get your times down. Congrats.

I'd keep doing what you are doing until the times start to level off. There are a lot of different things that the folks on PF could advise you on for the future practice.

I years ago stole...err researched an idea of ToddG's. I'll probably say this wrong but, he talked about having a, "fastest time", having a, "on demand time" and I added for me a, "flubbed it time". Todd talked about the on demand time where everything is in the target. No misses, being so important to shooting under pressure. It's that time that is probably more indicative to what you will do during a shooting or competition than the record/fastest time. I currently mix that idea with some interleaved/chaos training (avoiding block training by never doing any one thing twice in a row) to not get super fast but to get that, "flubbed it time" down. I figure when my mistakes are at a record pace(my screw ups are getting faster) I will be, "better" during the robbery, etc for on demand.

I wouldn't over think it up front. Just have fun and concentrate on the times coming down. That's very motivating all by itself. But just keep in mind the folks on PF(some of which are champion shooters) can give you a bunch of ideas to use the timer to help with whatever you're working to improve.