Origin of Three Dot Contrast Sights

[DonGlock26]

Does anyone know the history behind the three dot contrast sights? Were they first developed based on tritium night sights and
then gun manufacturers put painted dots on their pistols to mimic the sight picture? The earliest that I recall
were on S&W semi-autos. They may predate night sights.

Was there a military or LE study that showed three dots to be superior to Von Stavenhagen (bar/dot)
or Glock's sights?

I found this article regarding Von Stavenhagen sights.



A BRIEF HISTORY OF VON STAVENHAGEN SIGHTS
By Ferrari Steve on JANUARY 2, 2016

https://www.realgunreviews.com/brief-history-von-stavenhagen-sights/

[walker2713]

Good post....I'd like to hear from more knowledgeable folks on this question, and hope they'll chime in!

[41magfan]

If I'm recollecting accurately, it was S&W that mostly lead the way (in the context of mass production) with the white 3-Dot sight system in the late 80's with the introduction of the Gen 3 pistol line. Those "dots" later morphed into "Night Sights" as a premium option.

Along that same line, S&W pretty much set the tone for what people expected in revolver sights when the started offering the "Red Ramp" and "White Outline" on their adjustable sighted wheel-guns.

ETA: The Beretta 92 (M9) incorporated "Dot Sights" in some configuration about this time but I don't recall if it pre-dated S&W's offerings or not.

[Dagga Boy]

Need to double check my super early one, but I believe HK P7...1976.

[Clobbersaurus]

That is an interesting question. I believe gold bead front sights on revolvers have been a thing for decades? I could be wrong, maybe Daga Boy would know more.

[41magfan]

Need to double check my super early one, but I believe HK P7...1976.

Yep .....

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/vLxIiC.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnvLxIiCj)

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/10/daniel-zimmerman/gun-review-hk-p7/

[BN]

I remember some of the early 3 white dot sights didn't line up right. If you shot with the 3 dots lined up, the front sight would be up out of the notch. I remember looking at Colts in gun shops. Sometime in the late 1980's I had my Nastoff comp gun back in for a barrel replacement and I had Steve put 3 white dots on the sights with the stipulation that the dots and the sights had to hit to the same point.

I don't remember if the gen 2 S&W autos had dots or not.

I think some of the Walther PPK line had the round front dot with a square white dot on the rear below the notch.

Who ever invented the fiber optic front sight has my never ending gratitude. :)

[Totem Polar]

I
I don't remember if the gen 2 S&W autos had dots or not.


My 469 does not. Fixed ramp front with a funky vertical groove in it (perfect for filling with orange/red paint).

1976 is pretty early on in the game, that HK may be the winner.


So, a quick googling around yielded some interesting, if inconclusive reading. Trijicon's site states that the first trit sights were in 1985. I also found this article on "bar dot" or Von Stavenhagen sights:

https://www.realgunreviews.com/brief-history-von-stavenhagen-sights/

The article notes that the patent was filed in 1962, with 50 percent assigned to Fritz Walther, the oldest son of Carl. First gun with VS/Bar-dot was evidently the compact version of the P38. The article notes that other manufacturers moved on to 3-dot sights, so the inference is Germany, sometime between the late 60s and now. HK makes sense, in that context. Narrows things down some, but still open for debate.

[psalms144.1]

I remember some of the early 3 white dot sights didn't line up right. If you shot with the 3 dots lined up, the front sight would be up out of the notch. :)Unfortunately, that's STILL the case with some brands of Night Sights. I've seen some SERIOUSLY jacked up tritium vial placement - including on some sights produced within this half of this decade. Caveat emptor

[BehindBlueI's]

That is an interesting question. I believe gold bead front sights on revolvers have been a thing for decades?

Ed McGivern talks about them in his book "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" back in 1938.


For my own use, after much study and experiment, I designed and had made for all of my guns what is now known as the McGivern gold bead front sight. This sight has a large, round, projecting gold bead which is set into the face of, and is arranged to fit even with the top and sides of, a one-tenth inch Patridge square top post sight....This type of sight is now made by D. W. King Sight Company to fit all revolvers...Smith & Wesson...is now standard equipment on several of their revolvers...

(pg 81)

[spinmove_]

Unfortunately, that's STILL the case with some brands of Night Sights. I've seen some SERIOUSLY jacked up tritium vial placement - including on some sights produced within this half of this decade. Caveat emptor

Which is why I originally started moving away from anything on the rear sight. If it's off, it's SUPER annoying.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[DonGlock26]

I remember some of the early 3 white dot sights didn't line up right. If you shot with the 3 dots lined up, the front sight would be up out of the notch.

First, thanks for everyone's replies. I knew that I would get some knowledgeable answers here.

Bill brings up an interesting observation. FWIW, I may be able to shine a little light on it. My police dept transitioned to semi-autos
somewhat late back in 1991-92. The powers that be picked the Sig P228 9mm with 12lbs+ DAO triggers.

Our range master went to some Sig semi-auto transition/armorer school. There was some
talk of FBI involvement/instructors with the class in some capacity. The range master came back calling the Sigs "Zigs",
so maybe a German or Swiss instructor taught the class?

Anyway, the training that he subsequently gave us was excellent. I recall two unique things that we talked about.
First, he had us take our box of service ammo (Federal Hydra Shok 147gr JHPs) ,and with a fieldstripped pistol, put each round into the barrel
to ensure proper feeding. I thought it made a great deal of sense for professionals on the pointy tip of the spear- SEALs & FBI HRT? who
were likely to actually use their pistols. He also had us check our primers. I still do this to this day.

The second point was that the Sig sight picture of the white dot on top of the white bar would be slightly muzzle high.
We were told that this was because Sig Sauer believed that in low light situations where the bar dots would stand out,
shooters tended to shoot low. I assume it was German military/police doctrine at the time.

[SAWBONES]

Need to double check my super early one, but I believe HK P7...1976.

Yeah, but even earlier.

My first-ever handgun purchase was a NIB H&K P7M8, in 1985.

Same three-dot sights.
I still have it, of course.

[HCM]

Need to double check my super early one, but I believe HK P7...1976.

AKAIK - you are correct about the P-7 being the first with 3 dot sights.

[HCM]

If I'm recollecting accurately, it was S&W that mostly lead the way (in the context of mass production) with the white 3-Dot sight system in the late 80's with the introduction of the Gen 3 pistol line. Those "dots" later morphed into "Night Sights" as a premium option.

Along that same line, S&W pretty much set the tone for what people expected in revolver sights when the started offering the "Red Ramp" and "White Outline" on their adjustable sighted wheel-guns.

ETA: The Beretta 92 (M9) incorporated "Dot Sights" in some configuration about this time but I don't recall if it pre-dated S&W's offerings or not.

Yes but original Beretta 92 "dots" were the dot front and 1/2 circle at the bottom of the rear sight notch like the Von Stravenhagen.

The original 3rd gen S&W 3 dot sights were great because the had a large dot in front and two noticeably smaller dots in the rear, almost like an early HD sight.

[Rex G]

My early-production HK P7 pistol had the 3-dot pattern sights. The write-ups of the time made a very big deal about the P7's sights, as well as the SIG Von Stavenhagen pattern sights. I am not saying HK invented 3-dot sights, as custom 'smiths seem to have making them much earlier, but HK popularized them.