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View Full Version : Is it me, the press, or the brass? What is going wrong?



Gio
08-02-2017, 12:04 PM
I've been reloading for several years now, have had this problem only with 9mm, and have struggled to figure out the cause. About 3-4 rounds out of every 100 loaded won't pass the plunk test in a case gage. I'm loading on a Dillon 550b with Dillon carbide dies. The problem area seems to be about 2/3-3/4 of the way up the case where the bullet is seated inside of it that measures about .382-383 inches. The other 97% of rounds that pass the plunk test measure .377-.378" in that same spot. I use a mix of range brass, but the vast majority of my brass is once fired from quality Speer ammo. This problem seems to occur on all different types of brass and not one specific kind. I am using 145gr bayou bullets, seated to an OAL of 1.130". I also load .40 and .45 and rarely have a single round not case gage with either. Any thoughts on what I can try to remedy this?

Peally
08-02-2017, 12:15 PM
Unless they vary in FPS or fail to chamber I'd just shoot em.

The bullets all the same diameter? All seating at the same OAL?

Clusterfrack
08-02-2017, 12:35 PM
I used to have that issue as well. Now I use a Lee FCD in the final station on my press.

Gio
08-02-2017, 02:47 PM
Unless they vary in FPS or fail to chamber I'd just shoot em.

The bullets all the same diameter? All seating at the same OAL?

Most will seat in a glock barrel but stick and won't spin freely. I segregate these rounds and shoot them separately during a live fire session, usually for slow fire accuracy like a dot torture drill to avoid inducing a malfunction.

busdriver
08-02-2017, 03:22 PM
It sounds like the bullets may be seating crooked. Is the bulge all the way around the case or just out one side?

Gio
08-02-2017, 03:33 PM
It sounds like the bullets may be seating crooked. Is the bulge all the way around the case or just out one side?

All the way around. I'll try to get some pictures posted tonight. I can't visually tell they are out of spec until they go in the case gage.

busdriver
08-02-2017, 03:39 PM
Hmm. What are you crimping to?

Clusterfrack
08-02-2017, 03:57 PM
Unless you're buying expensive bullets, you're going to have some variation. That's what was causing the bulging for me. The FCD swages that out, if necessary.

willie
08-02-2017, 06:44 PM
The 9mm case is tapered. Your heavier bullet is longer. Carbide dies have a narrow ring cemented into the die. This ring sizes the case to the same diameter from top to bottom. The case is thicker at the lower end. When the longer bullet is seated, it's bulging the case out on the section that you refer to. This bulge is the reason for plunk test failure. The Lee FCD will solve your problem, but it may swage down the lead bullet in the process. If so, your lead bullet loads will likely cause leading because the projectiles have been reduced to .355 diameter--jacketed bullet dimension. Lead bullets must be larger in diameter. Most have found that .357 and .358 lead bullets work much better in the 9mm because they are more accurate and do not cause barrel leading. Despite the common misperception, 9mm barrels don't mike at .355; .357 and .358 diameters are more common diameters across brands. Some will mike at .360.

I suggest setting aside the fat ones and keep on shooting the others. You can shoot the fat ones or experiment by running them through a Lee FCD to see if leading becomes an issue. .357 and larger bullets loaded in 9mm cases will produce a coke bottle effect. That's fine as long as they function through your pistol.

BN
08-02-2017, 08:30 PM
Try loading your bullet a little longer. You should be able to load to 1.140 or 1.150. That will bring the base of the bullet up farther in the case so it won't bulge. That might not work if you are shooting a CZ.

ranger
08-02-2017, 08:34 PM
I am seeing issues with range pick up brass too. I use Lee dies because I found them to normally solve pick up brass issues. However, I am having one out of four 45ACP loads not passing my go/no-go gauge. Never had an issue with 45 loads before. Starting some searching and seeing posts about more people seeing these issues - speculation is that newer brass is "thinner" to save costs. Anyway, I ordered a LEE 45ACP undersized die that is due tomorrow - hope that will solve my 45ACP problems.

Currently not having issues with 9mm but I load 124 Bayous. I wonder if your issue would go away if you were loading 115s or 124s? I did have issues with loading Bayou 135s when I ran into the 9mm cases with the "step" - the 135s hit that step and the loaded round was too fat to chamber.

rdtompki
08-02-2017, 09:35 PM
I used a Lee FCD for tens of thousands of rounds before I ran into a problem wih 147gr Bayou and CBC brass. The die was swaging down the base of the bullet, but the case was rebounding back somewhat leaving the bullet very loose in the case; some actually fell out

I changed my setup over to a Lee Undersize die and a regular taper die in the last stage of my 1050. I can't complain about all the rounds I made using the FCD, but my current setup works just as well. I try to eliminate CBC brass, but I'm also not loading much 9mm with 147gr Bayou.

Clusterfrack
08-02-2017, 10:03 PM
I've loaded over 60,000 125gr and 147gr SNS coated bullets in range pickup brass using the FCD. It's pretty obvious when the upper ring of the FCD resizes the loaded round, and most of the time it doesn't. I don't have problems with leading. Occasionally a damaged case will get rolled over at the lip by the FCD, and that doesn't chamber. So, for important match ammo, a Hundo gauge (http://benstoegerproshop.com/100-round-9mm-luger-hundo-chamber-checker-cartridge-case-gauge/) is probably a good idea--especially if your gun has a tight chamber.

willie
08-02-2017, 10:44 PM
Ranger, your range 45 range brass if fired in Glocks may have swelled bases not completely removed by your current die. I'd bet that the undersize resize die will correct the poblem. Instead of using a specialty gauge for plunk tests, try your barrel which will most likely have a chamber with more generous dimensions. You rejects may work fine. Please be aware that I'm not suggesting that you lower standards.

About thinner brass made to save mony. My unsubstantiated opinion is that's not the reason. I think that much variation in dimensions exists between brands and even within brands. I do, though, believe that everybody has lowered standards by saving money on sacrificing QC. This could result in too thick, too long, or too short brass.

noylj
08-04-2017, 10:08 PM
If the bulge is at the base of the seated bullet, you are seating the bullet crooked.
You need to check that your expander is actually opening the case ID to about 0.002" smaller than actual bullet diameter and that your seating stem actually fits your bullet.
You can get a custom seating stem. If so, get one that:
1) does not touch the meplat
and
2) contacts as far down the bullet's ogive as possible
Alternatively, you can buy and try a Hornady New Dimension seating die that has a sliding sleeve/tube that helps to keep the bullet aligned.
Or, instead for fixing the problem, you can "iron it out" with a Lee FCD.

nwhpfan
08-05-2017, 12:43 AM
Post a picture.

It's a bit impossible for a case to go through the resize die and not fit into a chamber...since the die is 9mm. Right? If it goes in, it is that size. So what happens?

I think the likely culprit is too much crimp. You crank down at the case mouth so it bulges out. All that brass has to go somewhere.

Back the crimp die to where you are just knocking out the bell and see how that goes.

Hambo
08-05-2017, 07:16 AM
I think the likely culprit is too much crimp.

I'll take too this answer, too. I use a RCBS taper crimp die in my 550 and have zero issues with 150gr Bayou SWC in whatever brass gets swept up off the floor. FWIW I don't think much of the Lee FCD.

Gio
08-05-2017, 03:35 PM
Post a picture.

It's a bit impossible for a case to go through the resize die and not fit into a chamber...since the die is 9mm. Right? If it goes in, it is that size. So what happens?

I think the likely culprit is too much crimp. You crank down at the case mouth so it bulges out. All that brass has to go somewhere.

Back the crimp die to where you are just knocking out the bell and see how that goes.

The case on the top is the one that doesn't gauge. I crimp to .379", which is just enough to lay the case mouth flat from the bell.

18771

18772

Matt O
08-05-2017, 04:08 PM
The case on the top is the one that doesn't gauge. I crimp to .379", which is just enough to lay the case mouth flat from the bell.

18771

18772

I think some of your bullets aren't seating straight. I had a similar issue at one point and the rounds looked a lot like the one you have that is failing to case gauge properly.

TCB
08-05-2017, 04:19 PM
I was having similar issues but with .40, the Lee undersized die fixed it...

GNiner
08-05-2017, 04:42 PM
If I recall correctly, you are a Glock shooter. I shoot glocks and CZ's (or used to shoot CZ's) a lot. I had the same problem as you when reloading lead or coated bullets. The slight inconsistency of lead or coated bullet sizes used to give me fits when case gauging. The crimp would be off, the seating depth would be inconsistent, blah, blah, etc. Between the mixed brass and lead bullets, I could never get 100 out of 100 to case gauge. I could get 100 out of 100 to case gage with Montana Gold jacketed bullets, but of course they are more expensive.

I found that the ones that would not case gage would usually not chamber in my CZ's. But they would shoot all day in my Glocks. I have never had a bullet that failed the case gage fail in the Glock (approx. 200K loaded). Therefore, I NEVER case gage anything that is going in the Glock anymore. It would have to be an obvious problem (lip rolled over, bullet upside down, etc) for it to not shoot in the Glock. I saved my rejects until I got 100 and then tried them for "gross" accuracy - 25 yards on 6 inch steel. Got the same hit % that I get with cartridges that pass, so I don't care. I know you are a GM and therefore a much more accurate shooter than me, so maybe you can tell the difference. But I think you may be wasting your time worrying about it.

JCS
08-05-2017, 06:35 PM
I was having the same problem as you Gio. My CG failure rate was 5-10 per 100 rounds loaded. They would still fire but wouldn't spin freely in the barrel. I was using all Dillon dies on a 550b. I switched to a Lee fcd and those numbers went in half. Then I added a U die resizing die and and Redding competition seating die and I have not had a single round fail case guage since (~1000) rounds. I'm not sure if the seating die affected it or not. I had read that the U die would solve the problem and it sure seemed to do just that.

LittleLebowski
08-05-2017, 08:00 PM
Gio, I live in your area, we have a mutual friend (SLG), and I have been through this exact situation. The Lee FCD fixed it for me on my 650. I think that I also have a Lee undersized die not being used. Let me know if you want to try that die or try/see my setup.

busdriver
08-05-2017, 08:37 PM
It does look like a slightly crooked bullet. It's hard to tell for sure with the lighting and reflections on the case. The FCD is setup for .355 bullets, which is a potential accuracy problem if you're shooting .356-.357 bullets as it might end up swaging the bullet.

The Mr Bullet Feeder powder funnel has a step in it below the flare portion. It's intended to permit the feeder to drop a bullet into the case and have it stay in place. The side benefit (especially for coated bullets) is it acts as an alignment guide to help seat straight. They're $40 or so.

Willard
08-05-2017, 09:43 PM
Not to derail the thread, but a tangential note on thread titles which someone besides me might find humorous. When I read the title, I wasn't thinking reloading. Pictured LE/MIL frustrated with senior leadership decision making and media reporting.

nwhpfan
08-05-2017, 10:30 PM
What is the length of the cases? Are you squishing them somehow that makes them bulge? Not enough lube maybe. Or maybe not enough bell and you are squishing them when you seat.

Are the bullets the right size.

Do they fit in your chamber? Maybe the problem is the gauge.

Good luck!

Maybe the case gauge is out of whack.

ranger
08-06-2017, 03:00 PM
I just got my Undersized Lee 45ACP size/deprime die. Put in the 550 and loaded about 50 rounds - all passed the gauge. Will see if this is long term solution.

Jim Watson
08-06-2017, 03:34 PM
For 9mm in D550,
1. I went to a Hornady sleeve type seater with micrometer adjustment. I don't know if that improved seating alignment much but it sure made it easier to adjust OAL.
2. I went to a Lee CFC die. It rarely touches over the bullet but often cleans up the case expansion near the base that the radiused mouth of the Dillon die does not size.
Gauge rejects dropped way off and even those few are shootable, they just go in the practice box.
3. I have an EGW "U" die, but seldom use it except for 115 gr bullets (my current load is a 147 gr plated.)

Gio
08-08-2017, 07:20 AM
Gio, I live in your area, we have a mutual friend (SLG), and I have been through this exact situation. The Lee FCD fixed it for me on my 650. I think that I also have a Lee undersized die not being used. Let me know if you want to try that die or try/see my setup.

Thanks, I need to take you up on the offer. Regardless, we should get together to shoot sometime.

LittleLebowski
08-08-2017, 07:42 AM
Thanks, I need to take you up on the offer. Regardless, we should get together to shoot sometime.

Sounds good, hit me up via PM or I will you. I live not too far away from Elite.

Matt O
08-08-2017, 11:51 AM
FWIW, I use the U-die and still had an issue with some bulges on some rounds due to bullets not seating straight. Playing around with the amount of bell and changing seating stems solved the problem.