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Unobtanium
08-01-2017, 02:35 AM
What is it? I always see and read people who are SWAT/LE/etc. saying "Give me a rifle!" and yet I see that the longest running thread in this forum...is about a combat shotgun. Are we just kidding ourselves, and is the shotgun a uniquely capable tool that will always have a niche? What IS that niche? Is it just a bunch of people shooting 3-gun and the like?

Jason M
08-01-2017, 04:44 AM
I think that Dagga Boy provided the best answer to your question in this interview. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25228-Darryl-Bolke-Interview

In short, for the dedicated user, it causes an incredible amount of damage to unarmored bi-peds and dangerous quadra-peds when using the right ammo, at pistol distances. It also, with the right ammo, deals better with targets in vehicles than other common LE guns. If you can keep those things in mind, you can apply it to the correct situation.

DB can do a far better job explaining all of that in depth but those were the things that I have taken from him on the matter.

schüler
08-01-2017, 06:55 AM
What is it?

Your question seeks an objective, singular answer for subjective, individual applications.

Your answer is found in each personal application found throughout that and other threads. Home defense, bear country, sports, whatever.

Unobtanium
08-01-2017, 07:27 AM
Your question seeks an objective, singular answer for subjective, individual applications.

Your answer is found in each personal application found throughout that and other threads. Home defense, bear country, sports, whatever.

I understand that. I also know that most people here have families, and there is a large amount of people in law enforcement here. Long story short, they probably are not rolling in cash, and they do have responsibilities. I PRESUME they all meet their personal responsibilities as healthcare, food, housing, clothing for kids, etc. BEFORE meeting their firearm purchase desires.

Yet I see many MANY posts here in the 1301 shotgun thread. It's not like it's made of diamonds, but it's also not a throw-away, either, and it costs money that detracts from other pursuits.

I find it interesting that the thread is so long, so big in fact that 2 industries have sprung up around the shotgun. I remember the Benelli M4 cottage industries...they took well over a decade to truly get into full swing. This very forum has spawned multiple industry partners RAPIDLY all focused on the 1301...a shotgun...a tool that many here say "My carbine does everything it does and better..."

...so why is the 1301 so bloody popular? What mail is it answering? Is it "because it's fun"? Or is there more? I am watching/hearing the podcast now, but am also interested in what others have to say on the matter, such as yourself.

schüler
08-01-2017, 08:04 AM
...so why is the 1301 so bloody popular? What mail is it answering? Is it "because it's fun"? Or is there more? I am watching/hearing the podcast now, but am also interested in what others have to say on the matter, such as yourself.

That's what we're looking for.

1301 almost nailed all of the best competition-derived features in an affordable, shootable, reliable package. I don't even see Beretta mods as a regular listing on C-RUMS site.

Industry 3rd party machining services have been a force for a few decades now. Some even turn out their own mostly-in-house made firearms. So for accessories they have the materials, machines and know how to read the market (or give design/machine time to a pet firearm used by others) and mobe quickly.

Beretta could sell more if they had an 18" choke model. A lot of people would like a dual purpose sport/home gun or barrel swap option. Non-choked shottys don't do well on far plate racks. And clays of course.

The 1301 is a hell of a lot more gun for the dollar than the SLP I had. You might also check out the original mondo 1301 thread on benos forum.

I personally won't afford a second semi, but really enjoy having one. If money is tight the Stoeger M3K may be a more affordable sport option.

Unobtanium
08-01-2017, 08:18 AM
That's what we're looking for.

1301 almost nailed all of the best competition-derived features in an affordable, shootable, reliable package. I don't even see Beretta mods as a regular listing on C-RUMS site.

Industry 3rd party machining services have been a force for a few decades now. Some even turn out their own mostly-in-house made firearms. So for accessories they have the materials, machines and know how to read the market (or give design/machine time to a pet firearm used by others) and mobe quickly.

Beretta could sell more if they had an 18" choke model. A lot of people would like a dual purpose sport/home gun or barrel swap option. Non-choked shottys don't do well on far plate racks. And clays of course.

The 1301 is a hell of a lot more gun for the dollar than the SLP I had. You might also check out the original mondo 1301 thread on benos forum.

I personally won't afford a second semi, but really enjoy having one. If money is tight the Stoeger M3K may be a more affordable sport option.

I agree with all you've said, but I was using the 1301 thread as an example: Shotgun = worth spending money on...in a world where "I'll reach for a rifle!" seems to be the predominant mindset.

I am getting from your post it's about fun and competition, not necessarily social purposes, for you personally?

schüler
08-01-2017, 09:18 AM
...
I am getting from your post it's about fun and competition, not necessarily social purposes, for you personally?

I'm in the 18" home/sport & practical finances group.

Not a competition butt hurt so +2 is fine, I'll don't plan on ever shooting Open. I don't hunt waterfowl and with realities of shotgun velocities vs. bbl length an 18" is no meaningful loss.

GJM
08-01-2017, 10:15 AM
Besides hunting and 3 Gun, the shotgun is a tool used to dominate the pistol distance envelope.

voodoo_man
08-01-2017, 10:29 AM
Dagga Boy's explanation during the shotgun portion of the HiTS class (http://www.vdmsr.com/2016/12/aar-hits-first-responder-pistol.html) I took last year hit the nail on the head really well.

He talked about CQB / inside structure use of the shotgun as being the best possible application for the 12g caliber and modern ammunition. The fact the average shotgun using most LE-type loads will make the most of minimum amount of ammunition, which the shotgun makes up in force application.

Things I like shotguns for are shooting through intermediate barriers effectively, a well placed single hit on a person will probably stop the fight almost immediately, and that they are legal almost everywhere to have in your vehicle.

With those new shorty, non-stocked, shotguns, I think its a valid option for HD as well as car carry.

HCM
08-01-2017, 01:53 PM
Besides hunting and 3 Gun, the shotgun is a tool used to dominate the pistol distance envelope.

This ^^^.

It's not shotgun vs rifle.

The question is shotgun vs pistol, in which case the shotgun is the better choice when it is an option.

Unobtanium
08-01-2017, 02:15 PM
This ^^^.

It's not shotgun vs rifle.

The question is shotgun vs pistol, in which case the shotgun is the better choice when it is an option.

WHy isn't it shotgun vs. rifle, as you can choose anything you want?

HCM
08-01-2017, 05:50 PM
WHy isn't it shotgun vs. rifle, as you can choose anything you want?

Despite Jeff Coopers assertions about ghost ring sights and slugs, a shotgun is not a replacement for the capabilities of a rifle. Apples to oranges.

As a "big pistol" providing overmatch at pistol distances via improved hit potential and significantly greater terminal effects, it is a good choice. As such, the shotgun fills the same niche as the SMG, not the same niche as a rifle. With proper ammo it can also be a superior choice for shooting into vehicles at short range.

On another note- you can choose anything you want. That is not true of everyone. For example: My agency only allows issued long guns. I am lucky to be issued a rifle but we are short on Rifles. We have about 3x as many shotguns as rifles. When my choice was pistol or shotgun, I chose shotgun. YMMV.

RevolverRob
08-01-2017, 06:51 PM
Ah yes, it took me a minute, but I finally found the thread. We've hashed this one out quite a bit in the past - https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13486-Why-a-shotgun

Here's the take away from that thread:

Treating a shotgun like a big rifle with a limited range (100-yards +/- 15 yards) is a good way to use a shotgun loaded with slugs.

Treating a shotgun like a big pistol with a limited range (25-yards +/- 5-yards) is a good way to use a properly choked shotgun loaded with buckshot.

Treating a shotgun like a game getting weapon with a limited range (30-yards +/- 5 yards) is a good way to use a properly choked shotgun loaded with shot sized to your target.

Training people to safely use a shotgun to effectively kill game or dangerous threats (bears and/or people) takes less than a day. Training people to use a handgun or a rifle can take orders of magnitude longer.

Shotguns are 50-state and virtually all jurisdiction legal for hunting, sport-shooting, and personal defense.

Limitations of the shotgun: Range requires knowledge and ability to have a sense of space. Shotguns have limited capacity and therefore require more practice and more awareness for loading/reloading. Shotguns have higher recoil than rifles and may make shooters more skittish when shooting. Because of legal limitations, shotguns are generally quite bulky, virtually impossible to conceal on one's person in an easy fashion, and are not legal to carry loaded in many places where a handgun might be.

Comparing a rifle to a shotgun. If you aren't engaging a high number of threats, potentially wearing body armor, or in heavily fortified structures, a shotgun is probably the right choice (unless targets are at distances longer than 100 yards). That's a lot of qualifications for a police officer who may encounter that. By contrast for the average home owner sleeping in their bed at night? It's far fewer qualifications.

Odin Bravo One
08-01-2017, 07:37 PM
The role of my shotgun is to entertain me. That's the role of 95% of my guns.

David S.
08-01-2017, 10:17 PM
Dagga Boy's explanation during the shotgun portion of the HiTS class (http://www.vdmsr.com/2016/12/aar-hits-first-responder-pistol.html) I took last year hit the nail on the head really well.

He talked about CQB / inside structure use of the shotgun as being the best possible application for the 12g caliber and modern ammunition. The fact the average shotgun using most LE-type loads will make the most of minimum amount of ammunition, which the shotgun makes up in force application.

Things I like shotguns for are shooting through intermediate barriers effectively, a well placed single hit on a person will probably stop the fight almost immediately, and that they are legal almost everywhere to have in your vehicle.

With those new shorty, non-stocked, shotguns, I think its a valid option for HD as well as car carry.

I attended the same class, and look forward to attending again in a few weeks. DB and Tom Givens both argue that the shotgun is the only option for HD (and routine police work? IDK) that you can realistically expect 1-2 round stops. Additionally, the shotgun is less scary to the non gun owning public (see Joe Biden). Assuming it was a valid DGU, both of those factors may go a long way in reducing your legal and media hassle, particularly in anti-gun states. We underestimate the legal and media aftermath at our peril.

Sporting shotgun training and competition is widely accessible, even in anti-gun states.

You can become reasonably competent with a shotgun in a day or two.

It appears a well-equipped 1301T can be built for about a grand (plus optic??). An 870 for half that. Decent, but certainly not big AR money. For comparison, Jay Cunningham's Signature Carbine package (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4944-The-(Theoretical)-LSHD-Signature-Carbine-Package) from several years ago came in about 2 grand (plus optic)).

Is definitely the best choice? Is it the "AR killer"? Maybe, maybe not. But, if you can handle the recoil, it's a reasonable and serviceable choice with some serious things going for it.

I have my EDC on my nightstand and an 870 in a nearby quick access safe, and I'm very interested in playing with the 1301. When I eventually get around to carbine training, I'll move the AR15 out of the big safe and place it right next to the 870 in case the zombies come in hordes. ;) That's pretty low on the priority list tho.

RevolverRob
08-01-2017, 10:29 PM
Is definitely the best choice? Is it the "AR killer"? Maybe, maybe not. But, if you can handle the recoil, it's a reasonable and serviceable choice with some serious things going for it.

And if you can't handle the recoil, a 20-gauge 870 Youth model, a Mesa Tactical "Lucy" adapter (https://mesatactical.com/products/lucy-12ga-to-20ga-stock-adapter/), and a Magpul SGA stock can be put together for <$400*. When loaded with #3 buck nobody wants any of the receiving end of that.

*This happens to be my wife's preferred setup. With a set of Tru-Glo Rib-Mount Turkey sights and an I-Mod choke nobody - nobody - wants to be on the receiving end of her dolling it out. I'm pretty sure she could do surgery with that shotgun at less than 15 yards with buckshot, and she can drop 5 of 5 on command with 3/4-ounce slugs into the center of a B27 @ 50 yards.

SeriousStudent
08-01-2017, 10:51 PM
David, there will be at least three 1301's at that class. You are more than welcome to put some rounds through mine.

Steve's going to be borrowing my 1301 for the class, and I'll be running my 870 SBS. But I suspect there will be a lot of test-driving during lunch.

To the OP: My shotgun is my traveling long gun. I can take it virtually anywhere with no hassles. I even took my Winchester Model 12 to (gasp) San Francisco and New York last year.

David S.
08-01-2017, 10:56 PM
I know. Can't wait. :cool:

nalesq
08-01-2017, 11:03 PM
The role of my shotgun is to entertain me. That's the role of 95% of my guns.

This is essentially why even though I have a 1301 and have confirmed for myself that it is a more efficient weapon in virtually every respect to the 870, I actually shoot my 870 more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

NH Shooter
08-02-2017, 04:14 AM
Additionally, the shotgun is less scary to the non gun owning public (see Joe Biden). Assuming it was a valid DGU, both of those factors may go a long way in reducing your legal and media hassle, particularly in anti-gun states.

This is a valid point and one worth considering, IMO. Short of total societal collapse, I cannot envision a HD situation where the typical civilian would be at a serious disadvantage with a thoughtfully set up SG that wouldn't attract the negative attention an AR almost certainly would. Especially if it's a blued-steel and wood version. :-)

Odin Bravo One
08-02-2017, 05:26 AM
Having fired an occasional round from an AR in a defensive situation, I can say with reasonable certainty that I don't give a single fuck what anyone's attention to me would be should the need arise for me to do so in the future.

Unobtanium
08-02-2017, 07:04 AM
Having fired an occasional round from an AR in a defensive situation, I can say with reasonable certainty that I don't give a single fuck what anyone's attention to me would be should the need arise for me to do so in the future.

Agreed.

Mr Horn sure got a lot of negative attention even though he used a shotgun.
Mr. Zimmerman sure got a lot of negative attention even though he used a small pistol.
Mr. Fish is the only one who SPECIFICALLY got negative attention because he used a 10mm.


Point being? Your last name is normal, so you can use whatever you want.

Seriously though, I never understood the fixation over "but what will they say?" I want to use what I have the most faith in surviving a bad situation with. "Training", yes, but if I feel one tool is better than the other, I'm going to also pick the best tool. This is also why they didn't send you into the field with a musket "because we trained him a lot..."

Rex G
08-02-2017, 03:01 PM
What is it? I always see and read people who are SWAT/LE/etc. saying "Give me a rifle!" and yet I see that the longest running thread in this forum...is about a combat shotgun. Are we just kidding ourselves, and is the shotgun a uniquely capable tool that will always have a niche? What IS that niche? Is it just a bunch of people shooting 3-gun and the like?

Five or six nights a week, I am big-city LE, and find much use for the shotgun in the patrol role. A patrol rifle would be an extreme niche weapon, not worth the trouble of jumping through the necessary hoops to be re-certified and qual'ed this late in my career. Notably, working straight nights is a factor, as I think I would probably want a rifle on more occasions during daylight.

The rest of the time, I am an et cetera. (etc.) ;) The shotgun is still capable of performing at the distances present in a home-defense situation. While out and about in this urban area, I carry handguns. On my wife's family's wooded rural land, a rifle starts to make sense, but even there, a fight with trespassing/poaching methalopes would probably happen at distances suited to shotguns/handguns.

So, in my life, at least for now, the rifle is the niche weapon. Nothing wrong with niches; I/We have several rifles.

Edited to add: I believe most of Mr. Horn's "negative attention" was spurred by what he was saying to the police dispatcher, via phone, which was, of course, recorded, and released to the public. If an elderly man is being charged by two young, strong, fit burglars, well, normally, in Texas, that would be a justifiable application of deadly force, and, indeed, Mr. Horn was not indicted. The burglars were probably trying to flee, but Mr. Horn was in their path. The burglars may have simply planned to run past him, to get away, but perhaps they would have disarmed him, and executed him, with the weapon, so yes, the threat was imminent and credible.

Dagga Boy
08-02-2017, 04:31 PM
It is a niche weapon. That niche just happens to fit for a vast majority of home defense scenarios for most of America. It also fills a niche for a vast majority of "common" LE use of force scenarios. Now proper training in use of the tool for those niche's is a different conversation.

NH Shooter
08-03-2017, 06:19 AM
I completely agree with the "niche" comments, especially in regards to the SG for HD situations.

In the left-leaning parts of the county the ownership of an "evil firearm" most certainly could have social implications, even if it was 100% legal to own and used in a 100% justifiable SD situation. Unfortunately, Joe Biden's infamous double-barreled shotgun remark truly cemented "this is all you really need" in the minds of the non-gun owning public.

Just like age discrimination in employment (which I've experienced first-hand, though it is illegal and supposedly doesn't exist), if I use my grandpa's old Lefever 16 gauge to defend myself, my anti-gun boss and co-workers might not give it much though. Using a decked-out AR carbine in the exact same scenario might result in a very different judgement of me and directly impact my ability to survive financially.

Fair? Certainly not....

A real possibility? IMHO, absolutely...

Yes, survive the deadly encounter first but also be aware that every decision made carries implications. Choose wisely, not emotionally or to make political statements.

HCM
08-04-2017, 08:08 PM
Body cam footage - Iowa officer shoots suspect with 12 gauge buck shot.

http://www.leoaffairs.com/video/officers-bodycam-captures-armed-suspect-shot-12ga-buckshot/

RevolverRob
08-04-2017, 09:28 PM
Body cam footage - Iowa officer shoots suspect with 12 gauge buck shot.

http://www.leoaffairs.com/video/officers-bodycam-captures-armed-suspect-shot-12ga-buckshot/

AR on scene, officer wielding AR chooses not to engage suspect, because of concern of hitting neighboring house.

Shotgun officer had a split second sight picture, but a single round of 12-gauge buckshot at ~20-30 feet puts the suspect down.

Tough scene to watch. Good job by the officers in attempted deescalation. Bodycams don't show everything, but they clearly show the suspect pointing a long-gun in direction of officers before officer fires.

Unobtanium
08-05-2017, 12:21 AM
I wonder what load they are issued.

RevolverRob
08-05-2017, 09:26 PM
I wonder what load they are issued.

Not that it matters much, because at 5-10 yards any buckshot over #3 in size is extremely effective. But when he went to chamber the round at the beginning of the video, it looked to me like a round of Winchester Super X.

Paul D
08-06-2017, 12:16 AM
Question about shotgun lights: I have 2 Remington SBS with 14 inch barrels. Besides the Surefire weaponlight, are there other light options for the handguard? The barrel and the magazine are too short for a barrel mounted light. I have the Magpul fore end with a pic rail and a Inforce WML. It is okay but it does hit the knuckles of my left thumb under recoil.

dfeder530
08-06-2017, 05:30 AM
EOTech makes an integrated forend light for both the Mossberg and Remington pump shotguns.

Bigghoss
08-06-2017, 08:24 AM
EOTech makes an integrated forend light for both the Mossberg and Remington pump shotguns.

The IFL or Integrated Forend light. Discontinued in 2014.

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/21/eotech%E2%80%8B-discontinuing-integrated-fore-end-lights-ifl-product-line/

chiral
08-06-2017, 03:27 PM
Wish I could join you guys for the HiTS shotgun class! Not gonna rehash all that's been said but will add that the shotgun is just a hell of a lot of fun to shoot. Rolling thunder drill for the MFing win!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Clobbersaurus
08-06-2017, 04:01 PM
Question about shotgun lights: I have 2 Remington SBS with 14 inch barrels. Besides the Surefire weaponlight, are there other light options for the handguard? The barrel and the magazine are too short for a barrel mounted light. I have the Magpul fore end with a pic rail and a Inforce WML. It is okay but it does hit the knuckles of my left thumb under recoil.

The Magpul M-Lock offset mount may get it up out of the way for you.

https://www.amazon.com/Magpul-Industries-M-LOK-Offset-Light/dp/B00ORZIK1K/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1502053174&sr=8-3&keywords=Magpul+offset

SpyderMan2k4
08-06-2017, 07:37 PM
David, there will be at least three 1301's at that class. You are more than welcome to put some rounds through mine.

Steve's going to be borrowing my 1301 for the class, and I'll be running my 870 SBS. But I suspect there will be a lot of test-driving during lunch.

To the OP: My shotgun is my traveling long gun. I can take it virtually anywhere with no hassles. I even took my Winchester Model 12 to (gasp) San Francisco and New York last year.This is a solid point. A could years ago my eyes were opened to always having a long gun around... not a vehicle long gun, but having one while going out of town. I snagged a sweet Easton bat/ equipment bag. The bat section easily fits an AR, AK, or shotgun, and probably gets less attention taking into a hotel room than a coyote, molle covered gun case.

I have family in NY and make it up there a couple times a year. Being able to take a capable long gun with me is a bit comforting.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

RevolverRob
08-06-2017, 08:29 PM
Question about shotgun lights: I have 2 Remington SBS with 14 inch barrels. Besides the Surefire weaponlight, are there other light options for the handguard? The barrel and the magazine are too short for a barrel mounted light. I have the Magpul fore end with a pic rail and a Inforce WML. It is okay but it does hit the knuckles of my left thumb under recoil.

As Clobbersaurus suggested, the offset rail might work. Did you try 1)moving the light to 6-o'clock or 3-o'clock (I'm assuming based on your description it is at 9?). 2) Running "thumbs forward" like you would shooting a pistol?

The Steiner MK7 might be another option. http://www.steiner-optics.com/laser-devices/mk7-battle-light



To the OP: My shotgun is my traveling long gun. I can take it virtually anywhere with no hassles. I even took my Winchester Model 12 to (gasp) San Francisco and New York last year.


This is a solid point. A could years ago my eyes were opened to always having a long gun around... not a vehicle long gun, but having one while going out of town. I snagged a sweet Easton bat/ equipment bag. The bat section easily fits an AR, AK, or shotgun, and probably gets less attention taking into a hotel room than a coyote, molle covered gun case.

I have family in NY and make it up there a couple times a year. Being able to take a capable long gun with me is a bit comforting.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

My favorite way to carry a long-gun in/out of the car, is with a plain old guitar gig bag. I got a cheap one at Guitar Center ($20) and then got a sheet of foam board at the office supply store, cut it to the rough shape of the bag (i.e., guitar shaped) and with a long-gun (AR or Shotgun) inside it looks like I have an electric guitar inside.

After a while of playing around with it, I've discovered I have mixed feelings for what type of long-gun to carry in the car. Because many states require long-guns to be unloaded while transporting (including the one I spend half the year in)...I have to consider speed of making the gun ready. Most states allow you to store ammunition with the gun simultaneously. Dropping a magazine into an AR and slapping the bolt release is faster than filling the tube of a shotgun. Of course, the rules don't expressly forbid leaving the action open and single loading a shell. Which does get it into action quick. I know Louis Awerbuck usually carried a couple of rounds of 12-gauge on his person to be able to quickly load an unloaded double shotgun as necessary. I tend to do something similar when road-tripping. Depending on the weather, etc. I like to wear a "shoot me" vest, or fleece vest, or a good 'ole M65 field jacket with a couple of shells in the right front pocket, spare pistol magazine in the left front pocket.

I figure the long gun is either for the hotel/house/home or the emergency, "I need something big". I've still got a handgun on me.

SeriousStudent
08-06-2017, 10:24 PM
....

After a while of playing around with it, I've discovered I have mixed feelings for what type of long-gun to carry in the car. Because many states require long-guns to be unloaded while transporting (including the one I spend half the year in)...I have to consider speed of making the gun ready. Most states allow you to store ammunition with the gun simultaneously. Dropping a magazine into an AR and slapping the bolt release is faster than filling the tube of a shotgun. Of course, the rules don't expressly forbid leaving the action open and single loading a shell. Which does get it into action quick. I know Louis Awerbuck usually carried a couple of rounds of 12-gauge on his person to be able to quickly load an unloaded double shotgun as necessary. I tend to do something similar when road-tripping. Depending on the weather, etc. I like to wear a "shoot me" vest, or fleece vest, or a good 'ole M65 field jacket with a couple of shells in the right front pocket, spare pistol magazine in the left front pocket.

I figure the long gun is either for the hotel/house/home or the emergency, "I need something big". I've still got a handgun on me.

I have multiple options in that regard.

1. A BCM AR pistol with a LAW folding stock adapter. Technically a pistol, it can stay loaded but concealed in a Camelbak winter pack on the front seat. I run it with a Colt 20-rounder in the pistol, loaded with Federal Tactical Bonded 62-grain barrier rounds.

2. A Winchester Model 12 shotgun broken down in another inconspicious bag. It can be unloaded if required. It can be assembled, loaded and fired in under 30 seconds. Ammo is Federal DPRS slugs, Brenneke Home Defense slugs, Federal Flite Control #1 Buck.

3. A Marlin 336Y 30-30 youth model lever action. It rides in a simple Mossy Oak canvas case from Cabela's, with a tan Hill People Gear butt cuff ammo carrier. Ammo is Federal 170-grain JSP's or Hornady Leverevolution 160-grain FTX.

This allows me to tailor my tools to the environment I am in.

In the words of Uncle Pat (God rest his soul): "Mission drives the gear train".

And practicing with a pump gun or lever gun arouses virtually no attention. A folding AR pistol does, but I do that with friends at a discreet shooting range.

Hope that helps.

RevolverRob
08-06-2017, 11:08 PM
I have multiple options in that regard.

1. A BCM AR pistol with a LAW folding stock adapter. Technically a pistol, it can stay loaded but concealed in a Camelbak winter pack on the front seat. I run it with a Colt 20-rounder in the pistol, loaded with Federal Tactical Bonded 62-grain barrier rounds.

2. A Winchester Model 12 shotgun broken down in another inconspicious bag. It can be unloaded if required. It can be assembled, loaded and fired in under 30 seconds. Ammo is Federal DPRS slugs, Brenneke Home Defense slugs, Federal Flite Control #1 Buck.

3. A Marlin 336Y 30-30 youth model lever action. It rides in a simple Mossy Oak canvas case from Cabela's, with a tan Hill People Gear butt cuff ammo carrier. Ammo is Federal 170-grain JSP's or Hornady Leverevolution 160-grain FTX.

This allows me to tailor my tools to the environment I am in.

In the words of Uncle Pat (God rest his soul): "Mission drives the gear train".

And practicing with a pump gun or lever gun arouses virtually no attention. A folding AR pistol does, but I do that with friends at a discreet shooting range.

Hope that helps.

I've actually used versions of all of those myself.

And still find myself with mixed feelings, the version I liked most myself of various road-trip/truck/trunk longguns, was an H&R Topper 12-gauge with a 21" barrel, white bead front sight, with a butt cuff. Back when I was too young to pack a handgun legally, but was still running a construction crew in...interesting...parts of town. I kept this gun behind the seat of my work truck (standard cab PU) in a plain old Academy shotgun case. Loaded with 00, spare buck and a couple of slugs in the butt cuff, I knew it would work just fine. I only needed to pull it out of the truck one time and the guys who were in the middle of robbing our job site decided to go someplace else...

I really liked the simplicity of the gun, but I definitely wouldn't have minded another shot or two along with a non-hammer cocked action. I find myself eyeing the Stoeger Condor "Outback" model right now; over-under, 20" barrel, screw-in chokes, rifle sights, stainless with black synthetic furniture. Looks like a promising road-trip/ranch working gun. I'm especially pleased by the availability of screw-in chokes. I'm to the point now where I won't even bother buying a shotgun without screw-in chokes, I lose too much versatility even with short barrels sans chokes. I like accurate guns and accurate shotguns doubly so...

Bigghoss
08-07-2017, 12:42 AM
If you buy a spare 590/835 mag cap, a Mossberg 500/590/835 can be taken down and stuffed in a bag with the magazine cap used to contain the spring and follower to keep things tidy. I have done this and it works pretty well. I found some kind of funky sports bag at a thrift store that fits my 590 with magpul stock very well.

Danoobie
08-07-2017, 12:56 AM
This ^^^.

It's not shotgun vs rifle.

The question is shotgun vs pistol, in which case the shotgun is the better choice when it is an option.

With snakes, you choose between either the shotgun, or ratshot in a pistol. Once again, the shotgun dominates...

Unobtanium
08-07-2017, 12:05 PM
With snakes, you choose between either the shotgun, or ratshot in a pistol. Once again, the shotgun dominates...

My suppressed .22 pistol is my choice for any vermin of the actual "varmint" variety. That, or an air-rifle.

This choice came about after watching my stepfather shoot a snake with his duck gun. WAY too much collateral with the wood deck and all.

Lester Polfus
08-07-2017, 12:29 PM
My suppressed .22 pistol is my choice for any vermin of the actual "varmint" variety. That, or an air-rifle.

This choice came about after watching my stepfather shoot a snake with his duck gun. WAY too much collateral with the wood deck and all.

I've had good luck with .38 shot shells in that role. We had a ground squirrel with a penchant for strawberries that I smoked on our deck. We were going to replace it anyway, but I was pleased to find that none of the pellets penetrated into the wood. I've also blasted critters running along the concrete foundation of the house with no damage to the siding or foundation, or worries about impromptu vasectomies from ricochets.

Unobtanium
08-07-2017, 09:07 PM
I've had good luck with .38 shot shells in that role. We had a ground squirrel with a penchant for strawberries that I smoked on our deck. We were going to replace it anyway, but I was pleased to find that none of the pellets penetrated into the wood. I've also blasted critters running along the concrete foundation of the house with no damage to the siding or foundation, or worries about impromptu vasectomies from ricochets.

I will buy some ratshot for my 9mm, then. I am trying to buy a house, and it has a deck, and animals chew...

Tabasco
08-07-2017, 10:27 PM
I will buy some ratshot for my 9mm, then. I am trying to buy a house, and it has a deck, and animals chew...

CCI 9mm shot shells cycle my S&W 908, FWIW.

Unobtanium
08-07-2017, 10:40 PM
CCI 9mm shot shells cycle my S&W 908, FWIW.

Cool. I am honestly not worried about cycling, though. I just want it to kill the critter without killing the deck.