Snub nose revolvers...simple question

[dolphin62]

I always hear people say that snub nose revolvers are in accurate. I find it hard to believe that as many as has been sold that its the truth. Is it that there just harder to shoot with accuracy and you have to put the time in to learn to shoot it well. I have never owned one or shot one, but I would to some day ( a nice 469 smith and Wesson). Anyhow they look like they would be the perfect carry gun for protection and just walking around the yard with and shooting random targets with.

[blues]

They are not inaccurate, at least I have never found them to be. They simply require, as does any handgun, a modicum of training and experience.

[dolphin62]

That is what I thought as well. It always gets me how people will buy anything and never put the time or effort to learn.

[blues]

That is what I thought as well. It always gets me how people will buy anything and never put the time or effort to learn.

It helps keep the economy afloat. ;)

[eb07]

25 yards with my 442, one handed unsupported

https://preview.ibb.co/fnNsFQ/de440e963bc2e780fbc74aa0aae4dd2a.jpg

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I've done a similar feat to this, although it was from a pocket holster draw, with a Steel framed 649, 158 grain semi-wadcutter HP .38's at 140 yards.

MOST j frames, unless they have a QC issue (and that DOES happen) are inherently more accurate than the boob at the controls. Every time I think I've found a shite load or something incompatible, I bench rest it and prove that I'm the weakest link. Not being a jerk, but 9/10, I'll give the pistol the benefit of the doubt.


https://youtu.be/Tied-t1fFsk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jared]

Mechanically, they're perfectly accurate. Short sight radius and normally heavy triggers, added to smallish grips that make getting a really good firing grip established make it a good bit more challenging for the shooter to wring that accuracy out of one. Someone that has their fundamentals down cold can absolutely make one sing though.

[BehindBlueI's]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk

Snubbies are mechanically accurate.

[Rex G]

I always hear people say that snub nose revolvers are in accurate. I find it hard to believe that as many as has been sold that its the truth. Is it that there just harder to shoot with accuracy and you have to put the time in to learn to shoot it well. I have never owned one or shot one, but I would to some day ( a nice 469 smith and Wesson). Anyhow they look like they would be the perfect carry gun for protection and just walking around the yard with and shooting random targets with.

The S&W Model 469 is a snubby revolver? No, it is a double-column-magazine 9mm pistol, a semi-compact slide/barrel unit on a not-so-compact frame. Anyway, I like your post. Asking questions is a good thing. :)

As for the main question, a shorter barrel, in and of itself, is not less accurate than a longer barrel. The smaller gripping can complicate accuracy potential for those with larger hands. The shorter sight radius can complicate the act of accurately lining-up the sights. The tiny dimensions of some snub-guns' sights can further complicate the act of attaining a good sight picture. Plus, those of us who like a bit of forward-balance heft are likely to favor a longer barrel.

One more factor that may, or may not, work against shooting a small weapon well, is the distance of the trigger face from the web of the shooter's hand. Having to contort one's trigger finger "just so," at any point in the trigger stroke, can be a complicating factor in keeping the sights on-target.

I have long but narrow hands, medium-length index and middle fingers, relatively short/slim thumbs and ring fingers, and ridiculously small/thin pinkies, so can actually grip a J-snub with "boot" grips, or an SP101 with OEM grips, quite well, with my middle, ring, and pinkie fingers all able to effectively contribute to a firm grip. I can get quite good performance from these small weapons, with my aging eyes being a limiting factor. This does not mean, however, that I have ever been able to shoot an SP101 nearly as well as a GP100, or a J-snub nearly as well as a K/L-Frame revolver. The longer gripping areas of the larger revolvers stabilize better against the heel of my firing hand, and my support hand has enough available real estate to contribute more support.

As I near retirement from LEO-ing, and more interesting in carrying AIWB, I am now kicking myself for not buying one or more 2" K-snub-guns sooner, as they have become collectible firearms, with high asking prices for well-preserved samples.

[Willard]

The S&W Model 469 is a snubby revolver? No, it is a double-column-magazine 9mm pistol, a semi-compact slide/barrel unit on a not-so-compact frame.

Believe OP meant 649.

[Rex G]

A personal point of reference, regarding accuracy with snub-guns:

In 2002, I transitioned to G22 duty pistols, when I realized my then-mandated Safariland 070 police duty holster was an unacceptable hindrance to attaining a proper initial firing grip on my 1911 duty pistols, at the outset of the draw. A Glock being more forgiving of this imperfect grip, and with a trigger that my medium-length index finger could effectively reach, made it the seemingly best candidate, among the four authorized duty pistol choices. (My 1911 pistols were "grandfathered" as duty pistols, as transitioning was not mandatory when duty pistol policy changed.) I added a G27, too. Well, the Glocks served well enough, but I could not shoot them better than my spur-less-hammer SP101 "back-up" snub revolver, and not much better than my J-Snub. (Actually, on a "bad" day, I might shoot the Glocks worse, while long-stroke DA would be more stress-proof.)

I soon sold the G27 to a colleague, and bought another spur-less-hammer SP101 snub , and then a snub SP101 with a hammer spur. Later, I added a 3.1" SP101. I carried two or three SP101 revolvers, or, sometimes, a medium-sized 4" revolver plus a snub-gun, during personal time, until well into the 2006-2008 time frame, when I worked P229 pistols into my personal-time carry equation, resuming my earlier habit of carrying my duty handgun during personal time. (I had switched to SIG DAK pistols, with optional slimmer triggers, as duty pistols, replacing the Glocks*, when it became OK with PD policy.)

Why multiple snub-guns? Well, first, ambidextrous access, because I am effectively ambidextrous with these weapons, and in the real world, something might hinder the availability/capability of either one of my hands. Secondly, speed of the "reload," and, and third, a speed loader pouch is about as bulky to conceal as a holstered snub-gun, anyway, so why not carry the whole weapon? (Nice, flat Speed Strips can supplement, of course.) A wild-card reason is that I can carry more places, as a Texas peace officer, than my wife can carry, as a handgun licensee. She could arm herself in an exigent circumstance.

*I am back with Glock duty pistols today, because Gen4 fits me much better than the Gen3 I used earlier, so I shoot them better, and because my chief OK'ed 9mm duty pistols about the same time .40 Snap & Whip became a bit too much for my aging hands/wrists. Concealing blocky Glocks on my skinny frame, however, is complicated by the wide, blocky Glock-y slide that protrudes so far to the rear, so I may well return to multiple-revolver carry after retirement.

[Rex G]

Believe OP meant 649.

Ah, yes, simple typo, I had forgotten about that one, even though I owned one for a while, before consolidating/thinning the herd. (I do, now, regret parting with it.)

[BillSWPA]

in my opinion the single biggest obstacle to good accuracy with a snub revolver is the sights that many of them come with, which are difficult to see well under anything less than perfect light conditions. The heavy trigger doesn't help, but on most quality guns is not bad and can be learned.

[deputyG23]

My tightest grouping revolver is a Colt Detective Special ca.1975. It shoots golf ball size groups at seven yards with 158 grain SWC standard pressure loads, albeit three inches to the left.
One of my gun wise Sergeants looked at it and said, "No wonder." "Look at the top of the frame in relation to the barrel." "It's off center.". Hopefully one of our local gunsmiths can turn the barrel in the frame just a bit to get things lined up...

[Lost River]

J Frames are not inaccurate.

Short barreled revolvers are not inaccurate.

There are simply a whole bunch of people out there who simply cannot shoot. They parrot the same erroneous information they heard from another incompetent shooter, telling them how J Frames and other larger short barrel revolvers are strictly close quarters guns.

Ironically I was just posting pics in the Gallery section, in a J Frame thread.

These are pics at 7 & 10 yards.

http://i.imgur.com/kzdS1ir.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wvSoa5Y.jpg




I was not intending to do any real testing when I took those pics, I was actually out shooting a .45 Glock 21, working on accuracy:

http://i.imgur.com/6S0hl3k.jpg

For that matter, the J Frame groups are not even all that great, I just wanted to see the difference between shooting with and without the CT lasergrips, while trying to shoot a halfway decent group. I am sure if I was actually out practicing strictly J Frame and/or DA revolver stuff, some better results could be obtained, but it is a realistic showing of just throwing in some wadcutters, while taking a quick break from shooting the Glock.




Anyways,
I have run my J Frame out to 50 yards at rifle quals, and especially when aided with a set of CT laser sights, it really is not too much of an issue keeping them in the black.

Take a nice K Frame, like a 2.5" Model 19 with traditional adjustable sights and anybody who is any sort of decent shot, should have no issue at all.

[scott]

Every time I'm at the outdoor range I run a box of 38 through whichever j frame I'm carrying on the 100 yard reduced size steel silhouette just for fun. Usually that's a 342 unless I have the presence of mind to remember to bring the model 60 and spare my hand. I generally go 3-4 for 5 in a cylinder, and I'm not at all a particularly good shooter; you just need decent trigger control. Mechanically they're very accurate.

ETA: can't remember exact target size

[Olim9]

Does anyone have any videos of themselves shooting J-Frames at speed? I'm curious to see how you all use those things like that one guy's revolver FAST video.

[dolphin62]

25 yards with my 442, one handed unsupported

https://preview.ibb.co/fnNsFQ/de440e963bc2e780fbc74aa0aae4dd2a.jpg

looks accurate to me...nice shooting

[SamAdams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk

Snubbies are mechanically accurate.

Thanks for the video.

I'm often in Montana. One of the things I highly regret is not dropping off a couple of SAAs to have Bob slick them up for me. I always thought 'Next time I drive through here, I'll have to remember to stop by & drop them off.'

Not only was Bob a talented shooter, he was an excellent gunsmith.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Dagga Boy]

Snubs are not mechanically inaccurate. They are simply hard to shoot. Mostly due to weight of gun versus their trigger weight. This is heavily amplified with the super airweight guns. Also, grips often are not well fitted. With that said, what they do allow is for me to do two solid habits. First, to be armed all the time. Second, to be walking around with my hand on a gun and with a real street level 1 second draw.

HITS Revolver Super Test.

[dolphin62]

nice shooting.

[Lost River]

Snubs are not mechanically inaccurate. They are simply hard to shoot. Mostly due to weight of gun versus their trigger weight. This is heavily amplified with the super airweight guns. Also, grips often are not well fitted. With that said, what they do allow is for me to do two solid habits. First, to be armed all the time. Second, to be walking around with my hand on a gun and with a real street level 1 second draw.

HITS Revolver Super Test.


That is really the key.

My snubby is always in my non dominant front pocket, and a hand casually placed in a front pocket does not draw attention from most people.

As an aside, In the 90s, while doing uniformed patrol work I figured out (was shown the technique and the reasons why by an LE mentor) that a J Frame carried on the ankle was the way to go for me. I could get to it quickly while seated in the car, for dealing with unknown contacts, who would unexpectedly approach the window of your car.

It was blatantly obvious if you drew your service auto, by your body movements, and that would draw complaints. just a slight bend forwards would allow me to slip the J Frame into my hand, and then either have it pointed at the person, or slid under my thigh, until I determined their intent/threat level, etc. Obviously the vast majority of the times they were just normal people, with normal issues, or wanting to visit, complain, etc. Twice in the career, I pointed the J Frame at Ne'er Do Wells, while simultaneously exiting my vehicle. Neither time it was fired. Both times, scumbags who thought they had the upper hand, with me being "trapped" in my car, were both shocked at the turn of events.

I owe thanks to an older LE mentor/ USPSA buddy for showing me that technique early on, and have passed it on to many in the business.

[LtDave]

My best group with a J Frame recently. Sights on the 640 Pro really help. Decent DA trigger also makes it easier. Shot from a rest at 15 yards:

18685

[warpedcamshaft]

I can get offhand 4 inch 5 shot groups at 25 yards with my S&W 442 (1 7/8 inch barrel)and Black Hills 148 Gr. HBWC.

They are A-zone guns at 25 yards if you can do your part and find a load with a good POA/POI.

[eb07]

Did this yesterday:

Permanently broken finger and all still one handing it even though my ring finger won't completely wrap anymore. But it is getting stronger and I am getting better...

Smith 442. Shooting speer 135gr gdsb reloads w/unique running around 900fps

5"x8" ar-500 steel at 10 yards

Of course it has a wonderful Nelson Ford trigger job that I was testing out for the first time.


https://youtu.be/QVfdgvIrong

I have also practiced the 5x5x5 revolver standard on a B-8 that daggaboy talked about from concealment out of a galco stow and go carried appendix under a t-shirt using hand loaded 38+p 158 grainers:

https://i1.wp.com/hostthenpost.org/uploads/308afd8a0703d55dac0bb2d19cc042b9.jpg

https://i1.wp.com/hostthenpost.org/uploads/5358e9985b5b6b0e75fe592655f013d8.jpg

[SSGN_Doc]

There is a learning curve to shooting them well, that can be a bit steeper than some folks want to invest in, but a fixed barrel and a good trigger give you very good mechanical accuracy potential.

[willie]

I'm glad that the op asked the question, and I'm pleased that so many of our members see a J frames' accuracy potential. Snubs are a long time area of interest for me, and I always jump into the fray when the topic arises. But others said all the right things so there's little else to add except this: learn to shoot the snub double action and thereafter you will have no need for the single action feature. The "hammerless" 642 has the best of everything. You need at least a couple. Now for my controversial statement. When you master double action shooting, you will discover that your d.a. scores will beat s.a. scores.

In a legal self defense situation, when using a revolver, the dumbest at that you can do is cock the revolver single action. This point is one that I'd argue about, if I argued. I try not to waste my breath now days. One other thing. Don't let somebody "work" on your J frame. It's unforgiving when monkeyed with. I may introduce a separate thread on this subject and discuss acceptable minimums pertaining to J frame smithing. Before anyone asks about my credentials, let me say I don't have any.

[Bushytale]

A smooth trigger, well designed set of grips and a lot of ammo down range gets you going in the right direction.

[BN]

Does anyone have any videos of themselves shooting J-Frames at speed? I'm curious to see how you all use those things like that one guy's revolver FAST video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOjx0_usR40&list=FLAM1Ix9WEFZqmnFQMyy5RFQ

This was a local steel challenge match where several of us shot J-Frames for fun. :)

[Olim9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOjx0_usR40&list=FLAM1Ix9WEFZqmnFQMyy5RFQ

This was a local steel challenge match where several of us shot J-Frames for fun. :)

Fantastic, just what I was looking for!

[BN]

Fantastic, just what I was looking for!

There were videos of several of us on YouTube at one time. I'm not sure how to find them now. :(

[Danoobie]

The problem is not the guns themselves. The shorter barrel has harsher recoil and
muzzle flip. The smaller handle, combined with the sometimes awkward trigger angle
to the fingers makes the gun inherently harder to handle. But with practice, they can
be very accurate. The general perception, however is that the guns are less accurate,
fed by the fact that only those who are willing to practice enough will do well with
these conveniently small pistols.

[LittleLebowski]

The problem is not the guns themselves. The shorter barrel has harsher recoil and
muzzle flip. The smaller handle, combined with the sometimes awkward trigger angle
to the fingers makes the gun inherently harder to handle. But with practice, they can
be very accurate. The general perception, however is that the guns are less accurate,
fed by the fact that only those who are willing to practice enough will do well with
these conveniently small pistols.

Shorter sight picture is shorter sight picture.

[Eastex]

Shorter sight picture is shorter sight picture.

We're still talking about revolvers right?


Hell bent on being intentionally anachronistic

[willie]

Another way to say it is they are unforgiving to poor tecnigue and the short sight radius is the primary reason.

[BillSWPA]

I see a lot of emphasis on the short sight radius. While I understand the obvious reason for this emphasis, in my experience the visibility or lack thereof of the sights in general and front sight in particular in various light conditions is far more important for good accuracy than the sight radius. Visibility in suboptimal lighting conditions (which may mean plenty of light but coming from the wrong direction) is often the biggest impediment to good accuracy with a snubnose revolver.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[willie]

You have a valid point. Minimalist sights characterized by a shallow rear notch and small front blade do hinder accurate shot placement especially under poor light conditions. This fact is probably the best reason that snubs are back up or last ditch weapons these days. Within the last 15 years, my opinion is that more and more l.e. folks are spending time and effort to master the snub instead of merely qualifying with it.

[beenalongtime]

The problem is not the guns themselves. The shorter barrel has harsher recoil and
muzzle flip. The smaller handle, combined with the sometimes awkward trigger angle
to the fingers makes the gun inherently harder to handle. But with practice, they can
be very accurate. The general perception, however is that the guns are less accurate,
fed by the fact that only those who are willing to practice enough will do well with
these conveniently small pistols.


The last time I shot a short barreled revolver was over 20 years ago, when a friend first taught me to shoot. He had been a military and LEO sniper as well as a local LEO then federal officer. I saw him shooting his revolver and he started us on Glocks. We also shot a 45, that the sights were damaged (why it was in the store), as well as being able to try his snubbie. It had more kick then the Glock 20 that I was firing, and he shown us what it was capable of, by shooting our targets down. The emphasis was learn safety and get general practice, then your sighting and quickness back from recoil will improve over time.
Since that time I have been tempted this last year, (getting back into shooting) get one and shoot it again. But since tech has changed as well, I have been tempted to rent a revolver and either buy or rent (not available where I shoot), a Chiappa for comparison. I think the design moving the recoil, as well as other calibers (matching some of the other guns I have, so less ammo).

[camsdaddy]

Comment withdrawn

[Irelander]

I find that the Apex trigger spring kit really helped my j-frame shooting.