LEOSA: New York City: Mag Restrictions

[blues]

The great thing about LEOSA is how each state interprets things. :rolleyes:

Are retired LEO's carrying under LEOSA in NYC exempt from the 10 round magazine restriction?

According to an article in Wikipedia they are:


Magazine size limited to 10 rounds. Law enforcement and retired law enforcement are exempt from the 10 round limit. Also exempt are antique high-quality magazines if registered to an associated antique assault weapon. Under the NY SAFE Act (signed on the 15th of January, 2013 by Gov. Andrew Cuomo) the magazine law was changed. A legal provision that mandated no more than 7 rounds that may be loaded into the magazine was struck down by a federal judge on December 31, 2013.

Source: Gun Laws In NY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_York)

I have to attend a wedding up there and intend to carry my G26 with a 12 round magazine (and 15 round spare) absent legal requirements to do otherwise.

Would appreciate info from those living or working in NYC with knowledge of the particulars.

Thanks in advance.

[blues]

Also found this (http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/nysafeact_amendment.pdf) online:


NOTICE OF AMENDMENT TO NY SAFE ACT
AFFECTING RETIRED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS
On July 5, 2013, Governor Cuomo signed an amendment to the NY SAFE Act that
grants qualified retired law enforcement officers an exemption for large capacity
magazine restrictions.
Effective immediately, qualified retired New York or federal law enforcement
officers (as defined in the NYS Penal Law*) are exempt from prosecution for violating
large capacity magazine restrictions for guns that were issued or purchased in the
course of official duties and owned at the time of retirement, or comparable
replacements. Other guns not owned in the course of official duties prior to retirement
are not exempt. Only exempt firearms can contain magazines that have a capacity of
more than ten (10), or can have more than seven (7) in the magazine when not at a range.
In order to maintain this exemption, retired law enforcement officers must meet
qualification using standards for active law enforcement officers every three (3) years,
and if retired more than eighteen months, they must qualify within eighteen months of
enactment of this law (i.e. before January 5, 2015).

My G26 was purchased and carried in the course of my federal LEO service.

However, I am concerned by this:


* The definition of “qualified retired New York or federal law enforcement officer” is contained in PL Section
265.00(25), and includes among other things that the retiree has separated in good standing from a public agency
located in New York State where they were employed for at least five years as a police officer, peace officer, or
federal law enforcement officer, as those terms are defined in the Criminal Procedure Law, and that they are not
otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm.

While I began my federal LEO career for the first few years in NYC, the bulk of it was spent out of NY, but for a public agency which was also located in NY state. The portion after the comma..."or federal law enforcement officer", leaves the entire issue completely muddied up imho, (as was probably the intent), but I read it as saying that it applies to any officer retiring either from a police agency located within NY State, or a federal law enforcement agency (regardless of location).

It makes my head hurt.

[psalms144.1]

Blues - legally you're OK under LEOSA, exempt from magazine restrictions. As always, discretion bladdah bladdah bladdah, because I GUARANTEE that most state/local LE in NYistan don't know or care about who's exempted...

Also the exemption authorizes "comparable replacements" so if you want to carry your Gen4, that's GTG as well.

[blues]

Blues - legally you're OK under LEOSA, exempt from magazine restrictions. As always, discretion bladdah bladdah bladdah, because I GUARANTEE that most state/local LE in NYistan don't know or care about who's exempted...

Also the exemption authorizes "comparable replacements" so if you want to carry your Gen4, that's GTG as well.

Thanks, brother. I haven't bought the Gen4 yet but I plan on doing so in the near future to have a spare or replacement for the older Gen 2.5 G26.

[TGS]

I have to attend a wedding up there and intend to carry my G26 with a 12 round magazine (and 15 round spare) absent legal requirements to do otherwise.

Would appreciate info from those living or working in NYC with knowledge of the particulars.


Some venues in the city prevent anyone but active NYPD from carrying, with physical security ranging from bag checks only, to mags/wanding, to pat-downs. Checking your weapon at a local precinct is a courtesy that has been extended to other LEOs, but I'm not sure if they'd extend it to retirees.

So, I'd do some googling about the venue's security if it's in NYC. A lot of them used to have lock-boxes for LEOs/retirees but someone ruined that courtesy a few years back and most have been removed, and the PAPD won't secure your weapon for you if visiting ground zero either.

ETA: Comic relief incoming. I checked my weapon at a PCT one time, and when I used the clearing barrel my chambered round fell into the clearing barrel, down to the bottom. Being a great guy trying to lookout for fellow officers, Loo insisted that we together turn the clearing barrel (a free-standing metal pipe that bends) upside down so I can have my chambered round back instead of being short a round. I said not to worry as I have extra ammo to top off with at home and at the office, not to mention my spare mag on me, but Loo was adamant that he didn't want me leaving -1 round. I didn't think anything of it, as all of our clearing barrels are filled with the hardened rubber.......

So, I'm guessing that was the first time he had ever turned it over as well, because it was filled with sand which promptly destroyed the cleanliness of his workspace, along whatever other pocket trash cops had dumped in it, as well as a very nice collection of various types of ammunition which had met the same fate as my G2 Gold Dot. Being such a great guy, he insisted that I not try to help with cleanup so I didn't miss my show. Nice guy, I kinda felt bad leaving him (correction: their newest academy graduate) with the mess.

[blues]

Some venues in the city prevent anyone but active NYPD from carrying, with physical security ranging from bag checks only, to mags/wanding, to pat-downs. Checking your weapon at a local precinct is a courtesy that has been extended to other LEOs, but I'm not sure if they'd extend it to retirees.

So, I'd do some googling about the venue's security if it's in NYC. A lot of them used to have lock-boxes for LEOs but someone ruined that courtesy a few years back and most have been removed, and the PAPD won't secure your weapon for you if visiting ground zero either.

Thanks, T. The reception is up in New Rochelle (as I recall) and I'll be limo'd up there from Ozone Park / Howard Beach. I think I'll lock the gat up that day so I can have a cocktail or two during the festivities. As for any other spur of the moment rambling around the city I'll definitely try to make sure I've got it covered before venturing out. Thanks for the heads up.

[octagon]

In case the waters weren't muddy enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NY_SAFE_Act

Check out subsequent amendments section. There is a quote with reference to the Governors office about LEOs which may help clarify.

[blues]

Blues - legally you're OK under LEOSA, exempt from magazine restrictions. As always, discretion bladdah bladdah bladdah, because I GUARANTEE that most state/local LE in NYistan don't know or care about who's exempted...

Due to my great faith and confidence in the government and all its agencies...and in an attempt to head 'em off at the pass, I keep a copy of HR 218 / LEOSA in the glove compartment along with the NC DOJ statute and verbiage regarding their state certified firearms qualification of retired officers under LEOSA.

Plus, in an abundance of caution...I keep images of my FEDS LEOSA PLI policy and FLEOA cards, my current NC DOJ qualification card and my retired creds on my phone just in case.

[GuanoLoco]

Just wall the whole damn city off already and call Snake Pliskin if you need something or someone to go in or come out.

[blues]

Just wall the whole damn city off already and call Snake Pliskin if you need something or someone to go in or come out.

I actually got some folks I care about up there...so LEOSA is a good thing in that regard...and I don't think we really need to travel down that road in this thread in any case.

[GuanoLoco]

I actually got some folks I care about up there...so LEOSA is a good thing in that regard...and I don't think we really need to travel down that road in this thread in any case.

Apologies for any offense, this was intended as humor.

LEOSA exemptions are good for a few, but as a law abiding civilian it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. This brings out my edge.

[Jason M]

Blues,

I was just in NYC the week before Christmas. The WTC NYPD PCT was happy to check my handguns while I visited the ground zero site. They had lock boxes behind the front desk. The officers that were on duty were awesome guys! When asking several working cops about the NY mag limits, "SAFE" act, and LEOSA there was a consensus that the legality of the items possessed was open to interpretation. The wrong decision maker(cop, boss, DA) and a non-pc event could result in an arrest. You may prevail in court but at what cost? Based on the discussions it was best to stick to guns that were clearly legal (revolvers, G43, Kahr etc). I carried J frames.

[blues]

Blues,

I was just in NYC the week before Christmas. The WTC NYPD PCT was happy to check my handguns while I visited the ground zero site. They had lock boxes behind the front desk. The officers that were on duty were awesome guys! When asking several working cops about the NY mag limits, "SAFE" act, and LEOSA there was a consensus that the legality of the items possessed was open to interpretation. The wrong decision maker(cop, boss, DA) and a non-pc event could result in an arrest. You may prevail in court but at what cost? Based on the discussions it was best to stick to guns that were clearly legal (revolvers, G43, Kahr etc). I carried J frames.

Thanks, Jason. NYC is certainly a minefield in more ways than one. Appreciate the info.

[LSP552]

As a retired fed that would seem to cover you. As a old State guy, it's my understanding mag limits apply to me and I factor that according when I'm in MA and CT, which is routinely now that my fiancée lives in RI.

G26 and SIG P239s rule.

[voodoo_man]

10 round mag limit.

If you are going through NJ don't bring hollow points, yes I know they are actually legal under leosa but you think that you won't get locked up regardless?

Same goes for NY/NYC, don't bring higher capacity mags, an nyc DA would literally foam at the mouth in charging an officer out of state on leosa challenge grounds.

[blues]

As a retired fed that would seem to cover you. As a old State guy, it's my understanding mag limits apply to me and I factor that according when I'm in MA and CT, which is routinely now that my fiancée lives in RI.

G26 and SIG P239s rule.

I was thinking about your situation Ken as it does leave a hole in the coverage for retired LEOs who are not either feds or from a NY agency.

I'm inclined to stand up for and exercise my rights under the law despite the fear that has justly or unjustly been cast upon us. Failure to do so weakens our chances of moving forward or even retaining them...imho, of course.

My service record "should" speak for itself though I know that my idealism will get me exactly nothing. That said, you gotta stand for something.

[blues]

I have a FEDS LEOSA PLI policy for retired federal agents. I've just written to them asking for an opinion on both the carry of magazines with greater than ten round capacity in NYC by retired (federal) law enforcement officers...as well as hollow point ammo in NJ.

I'll share any response upon receipt.

[LSP552]

I was thinking about your situation Ken as it does leave a hole in the coverage for retired LEOs who are not either feds or from a NY agency.

I'm inclined to stand up for and exercise my rights under the law despite the fear that has justly or unjustly been cast upon us. Failure to do so weakens our chances of moving forward or even retaining them...imho, of course.

My service record "should" speak for itself though I know that my idealism will get me exactly nothing. That said, you gotta stand for something.

I won't break the law, but I will exercise my rights under it. I hate the 10 round mag restrictions, but have to live with it until the law changes.

[blues]

I won't break the law, but I will exercise my rights under it. I hate the 10 round mag restrictions, but have to live with it until the law changes.

I hope the response I receive will have some relevant info for you as well...assuming that someone is willing to venture an opinion. ;)

I agree with you, however, that the act seems to leave a gaping hole on the magazine issue in your situation and would be a no-win situation currently. And it's anybody's guess what they'll make of it on the federal side since it's as nebulous and vague as possible.

[Rex G]

Blues,

I was just in NYC the week before Christmas. The WTC NYPD PCT was happy to check my handguns while I visited the ground zero site. They had lock boxes behind the front desk. The officers that were on duty were awesome guys! When asking several working cops about the NY mag limits, "SAFE" act, and LEOSA there was a consensus that the legality of the items possessed was open to interpretation. The wrong decision maker(cop, boss, DA) and a non-pc event could result in an arrest. You may prevail in court but at what cost? Based on the discussions it was best to stick to guns that were clearly legal (revolvers, G43, Kahr etc). I carried J frames.

Thanks for posting this. The ability to take advantage of such courtesies is one reason I am thinking I should try to visit NYC, particularly the WTC, while still an active LEO. I would, probably, carry SP101 revolvers.

[Jason M]

I am saddened by what has happened to NYC politically to the degree that I no longer go there without good cause. Half of my extended family are either there or in NJ. We try to have family events on the NJ side of the river. There is so much to see, do, and most importantly eat in NYC (Blues will have to tell you where to get eggplant done right). I live less than two hours from the PATH stations on the NJ side. Getting there was easy. My last visit was just before Christmas. I was just a tag along with my GF who had to attend training on the lower east side. Christmas time in Manhattan is really something to see. The lights, Rock center, Macy's etc. Every American needs to see that once. The WTC and ground zero exhibits are awesome and should be seen by all. Too many have willfully forgotten forgotten that morning. Shameful!

My carry was an old skool 36 in an OWB with a 442 in a pocket holster. Since it was transiting NJ, I only carried WC ammo. Even the most enthusiastic prosecutor would have a hard time calling them hollow points. I left the knives at home as NYC has some odd knife laws. LEOSA doesn't cover knives. Always have your creds with you and carry them separately from your wallet in case you get mugged. They will get you back into the PCT house so don't lock them up with the guns. Should you decide to go, I am willing to bet that an RFI thread titled "What should I see, visit, and eat in NYC?" would generate some epic responses.

[blues]

Jason, to be honest, as much as I hate what has happened politically in many urban, (and truthfully not just urban), areas...it's the seeming eagerness of brother and sister LEO's, (not to mention the DA / US Attorney's offices), to cavalierly cast their brethren to the wolves and the bottomless pit of unnecessary litigation.

There was a time, and I remember it quite clearly, when even if you didn't like a guy from another department and had words or worse, unless something truly egregious was in play you always tried to find a way out that didn't cause the ruination of lives and careers unnecessarily.

Now...not so much. Sad.

[HCM]

Apologies for any offense, this was intended as humor.

LEOSA exemptions are good for a few, but as a law abiding civilian it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. This brings out my edge.

LEOSA is not just a personal benefit for the retirees or active state / local LEO's going outside their jurisdiction. The public paid to train these people and it is a benefit to public safety having those trained individuals be armed in public.

It is not a coincidence that after many years of effort both LEOSA and the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Good Samaritan Act were only passed in the aftermath of 9/11.

[Jason M]

Jason, to be honest, as much as I hate what has happened politically in many urban, (and truthfully not just urban), areas...it's the seeming eagerness of brother and sister LEO's, (not to mention the DA / US Attorney's offices), to cavalierly cast their brethren to the wolves and the bottomless pit of unnecessary litigation.

There was a time, and I remember it quite clearly, when even if you didn't like a guy from another department and had words or worse, unless something truly egregious was in play you always tried to find a way out that didn't cause the ruination of lives and careers unnecessarily.

Now...not so much. Sad.

I totally agree. Those "cops" though, are just an extension of the politics that evolved over the years. It begins in the schools and carries through to selection, recruitment, training, and promotion at the PD and DA's office. It is a pernicious cycle. Hell, most of the academy recruits that we see today have never been in a fist fight as a kid, never had a bloody nose or have been kicked in the yam bag. The "fighting is always wrong" indoc is hard to overcome. They have been taught to tell someone else and let them deal with it. It is no wonder that there so many who seek to hamstring their own.

[blues]

I totally agree. Those "cops" though, are just an extension of the politics that evolved over the years. It begins in the schools and carries through to selection, recruitment, training, and promotion at the PD and DA's office. It is a pernicious cycle. Hell, most of the academy recruits that we see today have never been in a fist fight as a kid, never had a bloody nose or have been kicked in the yam bag. The "fighting is always wrong" indoc is hard to overcome. They have been taught to tell someone else and let them deal with it. It is no wonder that there so many who seek to hamstring their own.

Strangely enough, I commented on the same thing when I went through my first academy class about 35 years ago. (I clearly remember being taken aback by how quickly some folks pulled their (training) guns during a tussle and hadn't a clue about defending themselves or the continuum of force.)

Maybe things haven't changed all that much in that respect. And so it goes...

[blues]

Received an email from Tony Vergnetti (http://www.fedsprotection.com/aboutus.aspx?id=86), Esq., the president of FEDS.

He will set up a time for us to review the LEOSA matter under discussion here during the coming week.

I'll do my best to summarize the salient points following that conversation.

[SJC3081]

10 round mag limit.

If you are going through NJ don't bring hollow points, yes I know they are actually legal under leosa but you think that you won't get locked up regardless?

Same goes for NY/NYC, don't bring higher capacity mags, an nyc DA would literally foam at the mouth in charging an officer out of state on leosa challenge grounds.

Absurd.

[blues]

Received an email from Tony Vergnetti (http://www.fedsprotection.com/aboutus.aspx?id=86), Esq., the president of FEDS.

He will set up a time for us to review the LEOSA matter under discussion here during the coming week.

I'll do my best to summarize the salient points following that conversation.

Got a phone call from the attorney referenced above.

He says that we are absolutely protected under LEOSA regarding the carriage of federally legal hollow point handgun ammunition. (Non-auto / non-suppressed.)

Regarding the NYC / SAFE Act regs regarding exemption from the ten round magazine limit he said that the issue appears to be nebulous and murky enough to warrant caution to avoid unnecessary litigation even if we should legally be exempted.

His recommendation is that if I can work around it by carrying 10 round magazines it would be prudent to carry them rather than fight "city hall".

So, in an abundance of caution I'll probably just load up my ten round magazines with HST and go with that instead of the 12 round Magul backed by a 15 round Glock OEM magazine.

Hope this info will prove useful to others who find themselves in the same boat.

[Det1397]

Got a phone call from the attorney referenced above.

He says that we are absolutely protected under LEOSA regarding the carriage of federally legal hollow point handgun ammunition. (Non-auto / non-suppressed.)

Regarding the NYC / SAFE Act regs regarding exemption from the ten round magazine limit he said that the issue appears to be nebulous and murky enough to warrant caution to avoid unnecessary litigation even if we should legally be exempted.

His recommendation is that if I can work around it by carrying 10 round magazines it would be prudent to carry them rather than fight "city hall".

So, in an abundance of caution I'll probably just load up my ten round magazines with HST and go with that instead of the 12 round Magul backed by a 15 round Glock OEM magazine.

Hope this info will prove useful to others who find themselves in the same boat.

Sounds like good advice and practice in Cuomo's and DeBlasio's New York and NYC.
As an aside, when sworn members within the confines of Long Island departments retire, they do so with their issued pistols. These consist of mainly high cap GLOCKs and Sigs. They leave service with the issued magazines. In a strict interpretation of the NYS Penal Law, sections 265.36 and 265.20, this practice would appear to be problematic in a "perfect storm"...as they are no longer considered police or peace officers under the NYS Criminal Procedure Law.

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.htm

[blues]

Sounds like good advice and practice in Cuomo's and DeBlasio's New York and NYC.
As an aside, when sworn members within the confines of Long Island departments retire, they do so with their issued pistols. These consist of mainly high cap GLOCKs and Sigs. They leave service with the issued magazines. In a strict interpretation of the NYS Penal Law, sections 265.36 and 265.20, this practice would appear to be problematic in a "perfect storm"...as they are no longer considered police or peace officers under the NYS Criminal Procedure Law.

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.htm

Gotta love it. :rolleyes:

[Det1397]

Gotta love it. :rolleyes:

Try this one on: RETIRED police officers and peace officers in NYS, who possess handguns under Article 400 of the Penal Law ( http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article400.htm ) are prohibited from possessing their handguns in schools... FWIW, there's tons of retired LEOs in NYS, working school security that are technically prohibited from being armed while protecting our children... 265.20.3

[Dagga Boy]

Here is the simple issue. If you are going to a "sanctuary city", they do not give a crap about federal law, and would be more than happy to prosecute a cop, even if they are wrong. Most places are not worth the couple years to "win". Simple response, carry a ten round gun and DO NOT HELP ANYONE other than YOU or Your family. That goes against the intent of LEOSA, but that is life. I just had a pen taken away at TSA. Had to spend $22 to ship it home. Same pen I have flown with hundreds of times with zero issue. The reason....."as a police officer you are trained to use it as a Kubaton, so you can't have it". New standard of helping on a plane....deal with the psycho or drunk yourself. Until it becomes a threat to crashing the plane or me, screw it. Welcome to the world of cops are now untrustworthy filthy scum.

[Det1397]

Gotta love it. :rolleyes:


And an update on this! 265.20(16e) appears to finally address the issue...But of course, this only addresses NYS LEOs and Feds...

[blues]

As an almost funny addendum to what Darryl states above...the attorney was relating a story to me that a former LEO carrying under LEOSA was in Atlantic City where he goes into the men's room and sees a guy shooting up and draws down on him. (No shots fired and no further action taken.)

The guy who shot up runs out and tells casino security that a guy pulled a gun on him in the bathroom. The retired LEO is arrested.

The judge ruled that he wasn't protected by LEOSA because he hadn't seen the matter through. Apparently he went back to the gaming tables and made no report. Vergnetti told me that under LEOSA that once you draw your firearm that you must act as an LEO after that by which he meant not that you have to make an arrest or pursue a subject...but that you must make a report to the proper authority of the event.

He said that in the above instance it didn't help that the former LEO had also consumed alcohol prior to the event.

It was bad enough dealing with responding officers when we were off duty and got a little out of control...obviously there's even less latitude under retired circumstances.

Forewarned is forearmed.

[blues]

And an update on this! 265.20(16e) appears to finally address the issue...But of course, this only addresses NYS LEOs and Feds...

That is the crux of the muddled / ambiguous issue which I was referring to above and in earlier posts in this thread.

The way the section of the law is worded, it's not clear whether the federal LEO must have served and / or retired while assigned to an agency located within the confines of NY and the attorney I consulted with didn't think it was worth litigating in court if the option to avoid such action by carrying a ten rounder was feasible.

And so it shall be...rightly or wrongly.

[Dagga Boy]

Like I found with my enemies at TSA, many places have made being a cop worse than being a crook. Biggest reason to fly under the radar and not get involved in anything. When I went out to San Francisco to train their firearms staff at the PD, I was warned that I would never have an issue with LEO's there, but the DA's office would prosecute me in a minute for anything and to not bring any mags over ten rounds or issued hollow point ammunition. Trust me, I ignored a ton of crime that is rampant in the Bay Area.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I travel all over the US and carry pursuant to LEOSA everywhere I go. I have dedicated guns for occupied enemy territory: 10 round HK compacts for CA and 3" RB S&W K-frames for NY and NJ, if there's any possibility I'll go to NY while there. If it's just a NJ trip, the usual G-19 goes with non-JHP ammo. It's not hard and I don't give a shit what LEOSA says, I don't want to take the ride, so I play by their game. Ammo doesn't matter and seven, 10 or 15 rounds don't matter. Something about the Indian and not the arrow comes to mind.

[ST911]

I travel all over the US and carry pursuant to LEOSA everywhere I go. I have dedicated guns for occupied enemy territory: 10 round HK compacts for CA and 3" RB S&W K-frames for NY and NJ, if there's any possibility I'll go to NY while there. If it's just a NJ trip, the usual G-19 goes with non-JHP ammo. It's not hard and I don't give a shit what LEOSA says, I don't want to take the ride, so I play by their game. Ammo doesn't matter and seven, 10 or 15 rounds don't matter. Something about the Indian and not the arrow comes to mind.

I support a bunch of retirees, full-time RV'ers, and professional travelers. Having a 50-state solution for gun, ammo, and blade keeps life much simpler. Oh yeah, and training plan for same.

[blues]

I travel all over the US and carry pursuant to LEOSA everywhere I go. I have dedicated guns for occupied enemy territory: 10 round HK compacts for CA and 3" RB S&W K-frames for NY and NJ, if there's any possibility I'll go to NY while there. If it's just a NJ trip, the usual G-19 goes with non-JHP ammo. It's not hard and I don't give a shit what LEOSA says, I don't want to take the ride, so I play by their game. Ammo doesn't matter and seven, 10 or 15 rounds don't matter. Something about the Indian and not the arrow comes to mind.

Glock 26 with OEM 10 round magazine satisfies NY / NJ with or without JHP ammo. I understand the reluctance to take the ride...if I decide to reconsider I'll swap HST for Critical Defense.

I haven't (to date) added a revolver to my LEOSA qualifications. In NC, each specific firearm is listed on the certification card from the DOJ. I generally just qualify with a pair of Glocks. Maybe next year.

[deputyG23]

I support a bunch of retirees, full-time RV'ers, and professional travelers. Having a 50-state solution for gun, ammo, and blade keeps life much simpler. Oh yeah, and training plan for same.

This sounds like a job for a .38 service size gun on the belt and a lightweight snub in the pocket or ankle. Whenever I call it quits from LE, that might be my LEOSA traveling iron and leave the bottom feeders at home.

[Coyotesfan97]

Like I found with my enemies at TSA, many places have made being a cop worse than being a crook. Biggest reason to fly under the radar and not get involved in anything. When I went out to San Francisco to train their firearms staff at the PD, I was warned that I would never have an issue with LEO's there, but the DA's office would prosecute me in a minute for anything and to not bring any mags over ten rounds or issued hollow point ammunition. Trust me, I ignored a ton of crime that is rampant in the Bay Area.

Is George "Gascan" Gascon still the DA? He fry a cop any chance he got especially if it benefits him.

[Dagga Boy]

Is George "Gascan" Gascon still the DA? He fry a cop any chance he got especially if it benefits him.

Yep. My recent experience with TSA in Dallas has really soured me on the world where LEO's are the enemy....especially from folks who we are supposed to be on the same side with like TSA, District Attorney's offices, security for sporting venues, etc. It is a sad state of affairs.

[blues]

Yep. My recent experience with TSA in Dallas has really soured me on the world where LEO's are the enemy....especially from folks who we are supposed to be on the same side with like TSA, District Attorney's offices, security for sporting venues, etc. It is a sad state of affairs.

It's sad that the only items that TSA "discovers" (http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/07/06/report-minneapolis-tsa-failed-95-percent-of-security-check-tests/) are the ones voluntarily presented by LEOs and other honest citizens.

And I couldn't agree more about the sad state of affairs.

[Dagga Boy]

It's sad that the only items that TSA "discovers" (http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/07/06/report-minneapolis-tsa-failed-95-percent-of-security-check-tests/) are the ones voluntarily presented by LEOs and other honest citizens.

No kidding. Rather than making a literal Federal case out of my Hinderer pen I freely threw in the bucket in the known traveler Pre screened line along with my LEO creds, maybe a hard focus on the crap that is getting through covertly.

[Coyotesfan97]

On this trip I got patted down after going through the scanner but just my shoulders and arms. They said they saw something on my left shoulder. I have no idea what it was.

My carryon got held for secondary screening. They pulled out the bag of beernuts and swiped it and clearned it. The only thing I can think of it was foil lined.

[blues]

Some years ago I was traveling back from London Heathrow to Miami after spending a week or ten days with Scotland Yard and Her Majesty's Customs & Excise which issued the warrants for monitoring intercepts.

Anyway, Scotland Yard drove me and my partner to the airport and took us to the gate where they identified us and explained the whole nine yards...and we provided our credentials and official passports etc.

So, who did they make take off their shoes and belts before boarding the aircraft? And who do you think they allowed to board the aircraft with nary a glance? I'm sure you can guess. Even now it pisses me off when I think back on it.

Sad.

[TGS]

It's sad that the only items that TSA "discovers" (http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/07/06/report-minneapolis-tsa-failed-95-percent-of-security-check-tests/) are the ones voluntarily presented by LEOs and other honest citizens.

And I couldn't agree more about the sad state of affairs.

Phew! Wow!

What's the solution there? I can't imagine being assigned to a xray machine every day is a good thing. Same with gate guard duty and how you can usually flash a blank card and get through at peak times where the guys (naturally) become glazed over....it simply takes more attention than the average human can muster for the amount of time we're putting them on post. As long as we think that putting people on these tasks every day dealing with the volume they see is a good thing, then I feel like we're going to keep seeing high failure rates. I think the nationwide average is 67% failure (don't quote me).

Turn over security to the local PD, give them funding for the extra positions, and only have each officer do it for an hour a day pulled at random from patrol?

[Dagga Boy]

Phew! Wow!

What's the solution there? I can't imagine being assigned to a xray machine every day is a good thing. Same with gate guard duty and how you can usually flash a blank card and get through at peak times where the guys (naturally) become glazed over....it simply takes more attention than the average human can muster for the amount of time we're putting them on post. As long as we think that putting people on these tasks every day dealing with the volume they see is a good thing, then I feel like we're going to keep seeing high failure rates. I think the nationwide average is 67% failure (don't quote me).

Turn over security to the local PD, give them funding for the extra positions, and only have each officer do it for an hour a day pulled at random from patrol?

The answer is to be serious on the goal and execution and not Kabuki Theater of frickin pretending. They know how to do this right, how to select personnel properly, and how to run things efficiently.....but that gets in the way of hiring "fairness" and preferences, "fairness" in what travelers are screened, going as far away from efficient profiling as humanly possible, and removing all level of common fricking sense from the place. We have a federal bureaucracy great at writing checks and they generally suck at execution and efficiency. When you make what should be a law enforcement program a social program, it ain't going to work. TSA is the post office version of a security operation.

[TGS]

The answer is to be serious on the goal and execution and not Kabuki Theater of frickin pretending. They know how to do this right, how to select personnel properly, and how to run things efficiently.....but that gets in the way of hiring "fairness" and preferences, "fairness" in what travelers are screened, going as far away from efficient profiling as humanly possible, and removing all level of common fricking sense from the place. We have a federal bureaucracy great at writing checks and they generally suck at execution and efficiency. When you make what should be a law enforcement program a social program, it ain't going to work. TSA is the post office version of a security operation.

Screening individuals? Are they even able to screen for higher quality individuals than they're already having apply? It's not exactly an attractive gig......most of the people who can do better are, or they leave in short order to do so.

and, no matter how hard you screen your employees, it's still a proven fact that humans don't have the attention span needed for the task they're given in force protection. Plenty of organizations have done studies on it. It's pretty much accepted fact, and one of the reasons that (for example) .mil posts, FLETC, and others have adopted physically scanning cards instead of just visually checking them. Same dynamic applies to running an xray. You could stick a bunch of 18x's on a TSA checkpoint using their own screening protocols/priorities instead of TSA, and with the amount of volume they see combined with the shiftwork it's a simple matter of fact that they're going to miss a lot as well.

[LSP552]

Yep. My recent experience with TSA in Dallas has really soured me on the world where LEO's are the enemy....especially from folks who we are supposed to be on the same side with like TSA, District Attorney's offices, security for sporting venues, etc. It is a sad state of affairs.

The ONLY place I've ever been literally harassed by TSA was at Dallas/Ft. Worth about 9 years ago. Ex wife and I were returning from a trip to Alaska and our plane was diverted from Houston to DFW due to weather. They got us out on another flight to Houston, the last one of the night and were basically holding it for us as we ran to security. We hand the TSA asshole tickets and he says to the EX we are going to treat you like VIPs, and she, being clueless, says, "can you treat him like one also." I see the smile on their faces and know we are getting screwed with. I personally think they were doing everything they could to make us miss the flight.

They pull my back back carry on and find my LSP ID and badge and ask, so you are a LA State Police Capt, and I reply yes. This was pre-retirement. The next words out of the 3 assholes standing around and making us a project was take the lens off of this camera and show me it works. Then fiddle with another long lens in a separate case in the backpack. Then a wand and pat down. I'm fuming but what can you do? American held the plane for us, but I was not amused.

I've flown all over the country for work and pleasure. I've used LEOSA creds to check and carry a pistol into most places, including behind the lines. My Fiancée lives in Rhode Island and it's not uncommon to find me in MA or CT. I'm living a G26 lifestyle now, with 10 rd mags when headed out of RI. Factory 12 rounder in the gun with G19 mag on the belt when hanging in RI.

Because I'm carrying the G26 a lot now, it's been seeing a lot of my practice time. I'm not worried at all carrying the G26 and it's compliant with the stupid.

And that's the last time I've flown into DFW unless it was business and I had no other choice. I will never schedule a personal flight that changes planes in DFW....ever.

[FNFAN]

Had an investigator coming home from an interview almost denied boarding by TSA in Reno due to her D.A. badge having "points" on it like a "throwing star." I shit you not.

Years ago at DFW returning from little bro's wedding some genderless weeble-wobble in a TSA uniform wasn't going to let my 10 y.o. daughter pass because she didn't have govt. issued I.D. and "was too tall/ too developed to be 10." DPD officer came over just as I was about to hit warp speed and said, "Prolly get those long legs from yer Daddy, have a nice flight sweetie!"

[Inspector71]

I retired from fed LE last year. Now traveling the USA in my RV. I carry under LEOSA. I did all the research and came to the conclusion that just carrying revolvers was the safest route to go. So, I got my six shot L-frame and a J-frame for travel. Who says revolvers belong in a museum ? LOL.

[Dagga Boy]

Screening individuals? Are they even able to screen for higher quality individuals than they're already having apply? It's not exactly an attractive gig......most of the people who can do better are, or they leave in short order to do so.

and, no matter how hard you screen your employees, it's still a proven fact that humans don't have the attention span needed for the task they're given in force protection. Plenty of organizations have done studies on it. It's pretty much accepted fact, and one of the reasons that (for example) .mil posts, FLETC, and others have adopted physically scanning cards instead of just visually checking them. Same dynamic applies to running an xray. You could stick a bunch of 18x's on a TSA checkpoint using their own screening protocols/priorities instead of TSA, and with the amount of volume they see combined with the shiftwork it's a simple matter of fact that they're going to miss a lot as well.

So.....nobody is capable of doing this right? I am not buying it. Is the issue pay, standards, training, etc....likely. Then fix it......or don't. My point on all of this was not so much "running a x ray is hard", my point is fucking with people SPECIFICALLY because they are an LEO who happen to also be Pre screened and a KNown Traveler has ZERO to do with your job is hard and everything to do with a piss poor mission definition. The goal is to keep terrorist assholes and people off planes with the capability to take that plane over. When LEO's are targeted for extra scrutiny and basically deemed to be scary like terrorists as opposed to an asset to defeat terrorists and people who can endanger the plane.....I think the mission is fucked up, is totally contrary to any level of common sense, and fits in this conversation because of the places that are more concerned with cops carrying under LEOSA than criminals.

[blues]

.....I think the mission is fucked up, is totally contrary to any level of common sense, and fits in this conversation because of the places that are more concerned with cops carrying under LEOSA than criminals.

It's hard to argue with that logic...and as the OP of this thread, despite having moved on from the magazine capacity issue, (which has been addressed satisfactorily in regard to the issue of NY and its LEO / LEOSA demeaning obstacles), I think Darryl's point is well taken.

Carry on.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Glock 26 with OEM 10 round magazine satisfies NY / NJ with or without JHP ammo. I understand the reluctance to take the ride...if I decide to reconsider I'll swap HST for Critical Defense.

Instead of Critical Defense, Critical Duty is Doc approved.

[blues]

Instead of Critical Defense, Critical Duty is Doc approved.

If I didn't already have a few boxes of the Critical Defense on hand I'd probably spring for some. It did, however, do well in this test (https://youtu.be/FKE4VKPRFTQ) by a fairly well respected source. So I've got that going for me.

[Chuck Whitlock]

If you already have some on hand, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the difference.
If going out and buying one or the other, I'd opt for the betterest. :D

[jetfire]

I recently had a fun encounter with TSA where they held my carry-on for screening because I had a loose round of 9mm in the bag (whoops), and yet with all that fuss missed the Cold Steel punch dagger I also had in the bag.

Good job.

[nalesq]

I recently had a fun encounter with TSA where they held my carry-on for screening because I had a loose round of 9mm in the bag (whoops), and yet with all that fuss missed the Cold Steel punch dagger I also had in the bag.

Good job.

At least you got "busted" for a live round. Years ago, I got extra TSA love for having a 140-ish year old .58-cal Minie ball in my carry on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[blues]

At least you got "busted" for a live round. Years ago, I got extra TSA love for having a 140-ish year old .58-cal Minie ball in my carry on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

After hiking in the Smoky Mountains and then flying out of Charlotte I was stopped because they said their sniffer picked up traces of gunpowder or explosives emanating from my daypack. I told them that even though I was in LE, (to which they asked "why didn't you tell us?" and I said "so you could do your job without interference"), I never used that pack for firearms. However, I did set it down in a cave (Alum Cave, as I recall) where mining took place during the Civil War for materials used in production of gunpowder.

[Crusader8207]

I recently had a fun encounter with TSA where they held my carry-on for screening because I had a loose round of 9mm in the bag (whoops), and yet with all that fuss missed the Cold Steel punch dagger I also had in the bag.

Good job.

I carried on a Glock 19 magazine with 15 rounds and no one found it. Forgot I had put it in my bag on a Friday afternoon headed to the range.

[psalms144.1]

One of the most tense 10-15 minutes of my life was flying out of Islamabad circa summer 2000 at the end of a protection mission. Somehow I ended up with a fully loaded P228 magazine in one of the interior pockets of the bag I was traveling with. The Pakistani screeners saw it, but didn't know what I was. I was able to produce a spare radio battery from a similarly placed EXTERNAL pocket and convinced them that was what they were seeing. If that hadn't worked out, it would have been off to Pakistani jail and international incident time...

What's funny is I left the US (TX-O'Hare) and transited through Heathrow with that same bag and magazine on the way over, and no one ever spotted it...

[blues]

One of the most tense 10-15 minutes of my life was flying out of Islamabad circa summer 2000 at the end of a protection mission. Somehow I ended up with a fully loaded P228 magazine in one of the interior pockets of the bag I was traveling with. The Pakistani screeners saw it, but didn't know what I was. I was able to produce a spare radio battery from a similarly placed EXTERNAL pocket and convinced them that was what they were seeing. If that hadn't worked out, it would have been off to Pakistani jail and international incident time...

What's funny is I left the US (TX-O'Hare) and transited through Heathrow with that same bag and magazine on the way over, and no one ever spotted it...

Sometimes it's just blind dumb luck. My buddy and I drove from NYC to CA with no tags on his Opel (temp papers in the glove box) and never got stopped once. Who'd have believed it?

[Coyotesfan97]

When we (Sgt and two handlers) flew from Phoenix to Dallas last August we all had checked firearms. Absolutely no grief from Southwest who sent us over to TSA to check the luggage. They knew we were off duty cops checking guns. We weren't the first handlers to go through security that morning. They emptied my bosses suitcase. They searched the other handlers bag extensively. They searched my bag and swiped every bag. Mine returned for some abnormality that required a supervisor to check it. We waited 15+ minutes for the supervisor. He looked at a clipboard and cleared it. This was the agent knowing we had guns/ammo and had declared them. They never told us what the swipe showed.

[Wondering Beard]

How many of these TSA folks applied for LEO work and didn't make the cut?

[B0308]

60%, the remaining knew theywere to fat, old or had no command of the English language.

Guess I should now cancel the September flight :cool:

[flyrodr]

Sometimes it's just blind dumb luck. My buddy and I drove from NYC to CA with no tags on his Opel (temp papers in the glove box) and never got stopped once. Who'd have believed it?

I can't believe you made it from NYC to NJ, much less CA, in an Opel . . .

[steve]

Blues - legally you're OK under LEOSA, exempt from magazine restrictions. As always, discretion bladdah bladdah bladdah, because I GUARANTEE that most state/local LE in NYistan don't know or care about who's exempted...

Also the exemption authorizes "comparable replacements" so if you want to carry your Gen4, that's GTG as well.


There is no exemption under LEOSA for magazine capacity. None at all.

[blues]

There is no exemption under LEOSA for magazine capacity. None at all.

I think he was referring to the magazine provisions for LEOs and retired LEOs under the SAFE Act but as discussed earlier it left too many potential gotchas to dick around with. So, in an abundance of caution I took ten round magazines with my G26 to NY and put the matter to rest.

[WobblyPossum]

I think he was referring to the magazine provisions for LEOs and retired LEOs under the SAFE Act but as discussed earlier it left too many potential gotchas to dick around with. So, in an abundance of caution I took ten round magazines with my G26 to NY and put the matter to rest.

Playing it safe. That's exactly what I gravitated to for visiting family in NYC. I really like my G26. If the neutered G19 magazines were actually reliable, I would likely carry my G19 but I don't shoot the G26 too much worse. Plus, it fits in my pocket for when I just need to walk the family dog around the block.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[steve]

Apparently a bill is floating around congress to do away with the magazine restrictions but I can't seem to locate it.

[LSP552]

Apparently a bill is floating around congress to do away with the magazine restrictions but I can't seem to locate it.

Sure hope so, it's been needed for a long time.

[blues]

Playing it safe. That's exactly what I gravitated to for visiting family in NYC. I really like my G26. If the neutered G19 magazines were actually reliable, I would likely carry my G19 but I don't shoot the G26 too much worse. Plus, it fits in my pocket for when I just need to walk the family dog around the block.

I haven't figured out a way to pocket carry the G26...at least not with the Trijicon HDs installed. They're virtually guaranteed to snag on the pocket lining. If there's a secret you wanna share, I'm all ears...(or eyes in this case...)

[Lester Polfus]

How many of these TSA folks applied for LEO work and didn't make the cut?

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! The agency I worked for hired a bunch of TSA refugees from about 2009 to 2012. The stories they tell about their co-workers and especially their supervisors are unbelievable, even though I've spent my entire life in public service. Some people get hired specifically to get in the federal system, then move on to another federal job. The people who are left are the one's who really get off on TSA work, can't get hired elsewhere.

All this LEOSA stuff pisses me off. If by some random chance, my wife and kid were at a shopping center where some asshole cut loose with an AK-47, I don't want any impediments to some steely eyed retired cop from taking care of business.

[WobblyPossum]

I haven't figured out a way to pocket carry the G26...at least not with the Trijicon HDs installed. They're virtually guaranteed to snag on the pocket lining. If there's a secret you wanna share, I'm all ears...(or eyes in this case...)

Mine currently wears the Ameriglo Defoor sights with the tritium front. I'm using an AHolster pocket holster. I can see HDs being a problem in the pocket with some holsters but the AHolster covers the top of the slide completely. The only issue would be catching the rear sight on something while drawing.

I haven't had any problems with my setup in the pockets of pants by Mountain Khakis, Duluth Trading Co., or Vertx. Your pants/shorts will definitely need large pockets due to the thickness of the gun/holster. It's more conspicuous than when I pocket carried a Ruger LCR but the holster does a good job breaking the outline of the gun, especially if your shirt hangs low enough to obscure some or all of the pocket.

[blues]

Mine currently wears the Ameriglo Defoor sights with the tritium front. I'm using an AHolster pocket holster. I can see HDs being a problem in the pocket with some holsters but the AHolster covers the top of the slide completely. The only issue would be catching the rear sight on something while drawing.

I haven't had any problems with my setup in the pockets of pants by Mountain Khakis, Duluth Trading Co., or Vertx. Your pants/shorts will definitely need large pockets due to the thickness of the gun/holster. It's more conspicuous than when I pocket carried a Ruger LCR but the holster does a good job breaking the outline of the gun, especially if your shirt hangs low enough to obscure some or all of the pocket.

I have an Aholster for my S&W 642-1 but haven't invested in one for the G26. I have a Remora that fits the G26 and when I've tried to draw from the pocket, the rear sight snags the pocket of my 5.11s.

Haven't tried with other pants and it's probably better if I just erase the thought from my consciousness. :p