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warpedcamshaft
07-27-2017, 07:56 AM
I have become more and more interested in the combative use of shotguns recently. I plan to take a shotgun course within the next year or two from someone along the lines of Dagga/HiTS or Givens (training budget is blown for this year).

I was wondering if anyone could point me at some good resources in the meantime. Seems like there is a lot of hokey shit out there about shotguns, and not a lot of instructors/resources who have much operational experience with shotguns.

BobM
07-27-2017, 08:18 AM
Tom Givens has a good DVD that covers use of the shotgun.

Hi-Point Aficionado
07-27-2017, 08:58 AM
Just having read Art of the Rifle and internalizing the importance of immediately working the action of a repeating firearm after every shot was immensely helpful to me. Grabbing a pile of dummy shells* to work on loading both the magazine and chamber is also a leg-up. Buying ammo early so you can make sure whatever you bring works is to be advised. It also shows you what, if anything, needs to be loctited on your gun. The guy next to me on the fifty-yard slug line last weekend put me to shame with his groups using the same slugs. Until the rear sight on his 870 came loose. Another guy rolled in with sabot slugs and an un-zeroed smoothbore that another student and I luckily caught before loading up to loan him some of our extra slugs. If you can, try shooting some clays or whatever else one can think of to make a snap mount of the gun as practiced as possible. Can be done dry but livefire will let you know if it was well mounted or not with the quickness.

Ammunition management, manipulation, and mounting the gun from ready seem to be the universals in shotgun classes. They also get a lot of time devoted so someone with some practice under their belt can use that time to get existing technique dialed in tight rather than learning from scratch. The rest is variable and seems comparatively minor. So I'd suggest picking material that primarily focuses on that and it's hard to go wrong when starting with material from Tom Givens.

* With metal rims. The all-plastic shells get chewed quickly, hang up in mag tubes, and are even lighter to be a pain when unloading.

Edit: Seems minor but spend some time blindfolded with a shotgun shell in your hands, feeling it. While topping off a tube, it is nice to know shells by touch so you don't cram one in backward without noticing. I'll admit to noticing that I felt a star crimp while on the firing line in class and had to poke the shellstop in my Mossberg to puke it back out in a hurry. Was very glad I noticed and didn't try to chamber it.

ScotchMan
07-27-2017, 02:13 PM
Chris from Lucky Gunner ammo has a few very good videos on combat shotgun on YouTube. Just search for his YT channel. All his videos are great.

SeriousStudent
07-27-2017, 06:23 PM
The late Louis Awerbuck (God rest his soul) has an excellent book on basic shotgun skills.

They can be tough to find, but an excellent reference.

Anything written by Tom Given should already be in your library.

farscott
07-27-2017, 06:41 PM
For general shotgun shooting, I highly recommend Bob Brister's book, "Shotgunning: The Art and the Science". It covers everything from gun fit to choke selection to the relationship between shot hardness and patterns. It is not a "tactical" manual, but it covers the hows and whys of shotgunning.

https://www.amazon.com/Shotgunning-Art-Science-Bob-Brister/dp/1602393273

tango-papa
08-02-2017, 04:03 PM
The late Louis Awerbuck (God rest his soul) has an excellent book on basic shotgun skills.

They can be tough to find, but an excellent reference.

Anything written by Tom Given should already be in your library.

To confirm, is the Awerbuck publication which you are referring to "The Defensive Shotgun" in paperback from 1989?

Finally got a pair of Remington 870P SBS stamps back and will be seeking out a good shotgun course in the near future (hopefully it will be a HiTS course...).

tp

SeriousStudent
08-02-2017, 08:56 PM
To confirm, is the Awerbuck publication which you are referring to "The Defensive Shotgun" in paperback from 1989?

Finally got a pair of Remington 870P SBS stamps back and will be seeking out a good shotgun course in the near future (hopefully it will be a HiTS course...).

tp

That is correct, I have attached a photo of the cover.

18696

And good luck on the SBS stamps. I am waiting on my second, and hope it comes quickly.

I think we need an SBS photo thread. :cool:

LGChris
08-02-2017, 09:34 PM
LGChris is a member here. Perhaps he'll pop in and drop some links since I'm too lazy to dig them up tonight. :)

Ask and you shall receive :)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYqiOqBy2WM_cHA3TZUY2rzonjrGg0wie

Gater
08-03-2017, 05:19 AM
In the same boat, and hoping to attend one of Tom's courses soon--in the meantime, some excellent resources mentioned above. The dummy rounds were invaluable for me--I have some from Brownells that are very good. What they are selling currently looks a little different but looks like a good option:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/cartridge-dummies/12-ga-shotgun-dummy-rounds-prod67708.aspx

SeriousStudent
08-03-2017, 11:27 AM
Brownells's also carries the A-Zoom 12 gauge snaps caps. I have a bunch, and they have worked well for my on reloading practice.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/cartridge-dummies/ammo-snap-cap-dummy-rounds-prod5176.aspx

Hope that helps.

warpedcamshaft
08-04-2017, 07:58 AM
Ask and you shall receive :)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYqiOqBy2WM_cHA3TZUY2rzonjrGg0wie

LG's stuff is some of the best gun related content I've seen on the interwebs with respect to both quality of production and content.

Glad to see you are a member here.

willie
08-05-2017, 07:33 PM
I'm a pump gun man, yet I'm convinced that untrained shooters will have more malfunctions with a pump than a semi auto. Pumps require positive and hard motion in both directions: all the way back and all the way forward. Everybody knows this, but many can't do it right. Next, keep some forward pressure on the slide until the gun fires.Then pump like hell. Keeping forward pressure on the slide until it goes bang is essential for trouble free 870 operation. For either brand, extraction malfunctions can usually be fixed by chamber cleaning and then polishing with 0000 steel wool. My experiece is that chambers in both brands require this treatment as a first step. Doing so will eliminate many head aches. Also, I've observed that many crappy shotgun shells are on the market. I refer to birdshot offerings that you might use for practice. I have pumps that won't work with some of these. The last case of S&B buckshot that I bought even has extraction issues in some but not all of my shotguns. This statment does not indict the brand but points out that specs can and will vary because of tolerance issues. Law enforcement buckshot brands are the only way to go for serious users. If you are a.serious user and desire bird shot for any reason(?), then buy Winchester AA Trap Loads. I can explain why an AR beats trumps a shotgun. However, I've never found an AR that I can grab, mount, and have it shoot where I look. Inside my house, that's a hard combo to beat.

Unobtanium
08-10-2017, 07:57 AM
I find it interesting and informative to see just how, in the last half century, gear and techniques and understanding of both evolve. I also find it interesting "to see what people looked like back then". Notice no 400# scooter users?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTzNlGLHEo

warpedcamshaft
08-10-2017, 09:27 AM
I find it interesting and informative to see just how, in the last half century, gear and techniques and understanding of both evolve. I also find it interesting "to see what people looked like back then". Notice no 400# scooter users?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTzNlGLHEo

That cop should have used Federal Flite control! ;)

Cool video. Interesting to see when the shotgun reigned supreme vs the carbine.

"whirl, fire, and blow the guy away" - probably couldn't say that in a training video today.

Unobtanium
08-10-2017, 11:08 AM
That cop should have used Federal Flite control! ;)

Cool video. Interesting to see when the shotgun reigned supreme vs the carbine.

"whirl, fire, and blow the guy away" - probably couldn't say that in a training video today.

I was all impressed by the White cop, Black cop, and Asian cop. It totally would have "passed" in today's PC culture!

blues
08-10-2017, 11:12 AM
I was all impressed by the White cop, Black cop, and Asian cop. It totally would have "passed" in today's PC culture!

You must've missed the "Mod Squad". ;)

The shotgun lives! I don't think I could ever be truly happy without one as an alternative or adjunct to other long gun options.

NH Shooter
08-13-2017, 11:43 AM
In the same boat, and hoping to attend one of Tom's courses soon--in the meantime, some excellent resources mentioned above. The dummy rounds were invaluable for me--I have some from Brownells that are very good. What they are selling currently looks a little different but looks like a good option:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/cartridge-dummies/12-ga-shotgun-dummy-rounds-prod67708.aspx

I use these - they have the same weight, balance and feel as a normal shell. They also hold up far better than the plastic versions.

tango-papa
08-14-2017, 12:24 PM
That is correct, I have attached a photo of the cover.

And good luck on the SBS stamps. I am waiting on my second, and hope it comes quickly.

I think we need an SBS photo thread. :cool:

Thanks for the clarification.
Book ordered and received.

tp

RJ
10-12-2018, 02:16 PM
Did a search to find this thread.

Looks like a great resource and some good links. Thanks to the OP.

I find myself interested in a shotgun. I’m in FL, and with recent bad storms a shotgun seems like a pretty good deterrent to assholes who might wander uninvited into my neighborhood after a storm.

Hence, the interest.

I have zip for shotgun experience. Maybe shot a 14 ga on the farm as a yute a couple times, is about it.

I’ll be looking at this thread and others to see if my questions are answered (probably are). At this point I don’t know what I don’t know.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

03RN
10-12-2018, 09:48 PM
I like magpuls DVD.

You do have to be able to separate the wheat from the chafe and objectively look at your own shooting to pick it apart, analyze, and critique.

Wheeler
10-13-2018, 07:48 AM
jlw at First Person Safety puts on an excellent shotgun class. Actually two. The cost is very reasonable and well worth the money. If there is one that is with a reasonable distance I’d recommend jumping on the opportunity.

David S.
10-13-2018, 07:50 AM
Did a search to find this thread.

Looks like a great resource and some good links. Thanks to the OP.

I find myself interested in a shotgun. I’m in FL, and with recent bad storms a shotgun seems like a pretty good deterrent to assholes who might wander uninvited into my neighborhood after a storm.

Hence, the interest.

I have zip for shotgun experience. Maybe shot a 14 ga on the farm as a yute a couple times, is about it.

I’ll be looking at this thread and others to see if my questions are answered (probably are). At this point I don’t know what I don’t know.

It appears that Tom Givens is doing a "Social Shotgun" block at 2019 Tac Con.

mtnbkr
10-13-2018, 08:06 AM
I like magpuls DVD.

You do have to be able to separate the wheat from the chafe and objectively look at your own shooting to pick it apart, analyze, and critique.

I have that set.

Rich_Jenkins
If you want to borrow it, PM me your address.

Chris

GJM
10-13-2018, 08:46 AM
Here is a simplified shotgun class. Buy a Beretta 1301 and 50 rounds of Federal FC buck. Shoot one round at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and 35 yards. Take a picture of the spread at each distance with your phone for future reference. If you have an old Surefire light, use electrical tape to attach it to the shotgun. Load the tube with Federal, leave the chamber empty, and lock the shotgun into your gun safe. If you ever need it, work a round into the chamber, shoot the shotgun until it is empty, draw your pistol and carry on.

03RN
10-13-2018, 09:58 AM
Here is a simplified shotgun class. Buy a Beretta 1301 and 50 rounds of Federal FC buck. Shoot one round at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and 35 yards. Take a picture of the spread at each distance with your phone for future reference. If you have an old Surefire light, use electrical tape to attach it to the shotgun. Load the tube with Federal, leave the chamber empty, and lock the shotgun into your gun safe. If you ever need it, work a round into the chamber, shoot the shotgun until it is empty, draw your pistol and carry on.

I think there is great value in learning how to load efficiently and managing recoil effectively which needs a few more rounds.

NH Shooter
10-13-2018, 10:15 AM
These are great for doing load/unload and action cycling exercises at home -

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/cartridge-dummies/12-ga-shotgun-dummy-rounds-prod67708.aspx

RJ
10-13-2018, 03:26 PM
I listened to this podcast today at the gym:

http://ballisticradio.com/2018/08/25/gospel-of-the-gauge-podcast-season-6-ballistic-radio-episode-266-july-30th-2018/

I thought it was very informative. Mr. Haught's comments on the use of the shotgun were pretty interesting to me as a potential shotgun noob.

I was looking at my local indoor range's web site and it appears they offer shotgun rentals. Since I was new to handguns in 2014, that's what I did when I wanted to know more about guns - I spent quite a few sessions going through the rental case. So I might have a go at the shop sometime, and shoot a box of shells to get a feel for these.

I'm not sure at this point whether this is a want or a need. I have decide whether it's worth the investment to me, in my situation (generally urban living, professional type) or I should take the same time/money and spend it on more training, 9mm ammo and practice. I suspect if I do the math, while having a shotgun is "cool", I'm not yet seeing the benefit in my life expectancy over say putting down that Pizza and doing a few more minutes on the elliptical machine.

So I think for now I'll keep thinking about it, reading some more and (possibly) go up to the indoor range and see what they have in terms of rental shotguns. From what I understand a 870 Police seems to be the Glock 19 of shotguns (forgive me, like I said I have no idea what I don't know), so in terms of a benchmark I guess I'm using that model/type.

Appreciate all the inputs.

RJ
10-13-2018, 03:29 PM
It appears that Tom Givens is doing a "Social Shotgun" block at 2019 Tac Con.

Thanks, David, I will look into that segment. I'm currently going to Tac Con solo this year. I'll have to see if Tom would let in a student that doesn't actually own a shotgun.


PS Hope all are well at home. Bet they are getting big. :)

GJM
10-13-2018, 04:15 PM
I listened to this podcast today at the gym:

http://ballisticradio.com/2018/08/25/gospel-of-the-gauge-podcast-season-6-ballistic-radio-episode-266-july-30th-2018/

I thought it was very informative. Mr. Haught's comments on the use of the shotgun were pretty interesting to me as a potential shotgun noob.

I was looking at my local indoor range's web site and it appears they offer shotgun rentals. Since I was new to handguns in 2014, that's what I did when I wanted to know more about guns - I spent quite a few sessions going through the rental case. So I might have a go at the shop sometime, and shoot a box of shells to get a feel for these.

I'm not sure at this point whether this is a want or a need. I have decide whether it's worth the investment to me, in my situation (generally urban living, professional type) or I should take the same time/money and spend it on more training, 9mm ammo and practice. I suspect if I do the math, while having a shotgun is "cool", I'm not yet seeing the benefit in my life expectancy over say putting down that Pizza and doing a few more minutes on the elliptical machine.

So I think for now I'll keep thinking about it, reading some more and (possibly) go up to the indoor range and see what they have in terms of rental shotguns. From what I understand a 870 Police seems to be the Glock 19 of shotguns (forgive me, like I said I have no idea what I don't know), so in terms of a benchmark I guess I'm using that model/type.

Appreciate all the inputs.

I have a bunch of 870 shotguns, NFA and longer, many worked over by Vang, Brockman, Robar. At one point, I spent a bunch of effort developing and maintaining pump action skills. Betweeen Benelli and Beretta, other than pure cost, there is almost no argument, besides launching oddd loads or crazy extreme conditions like north of the Arctic Circle cold, for a pump for defensive use. And, most of my best performing 870 shotguns cost way more than a suitable Beretta or a Benelli. A Beretta or Benelli functions more like your Glock 19, where a pump is more like a single action revolver. Besides being able to be shot way faster, a quality semi is likely to be more reliable for all but the most dedicated pump shooters.

David S.
10-13-2018, 04:52 PM
My “expertise” come solely from taking DB’s class a couple of times with an 870

I agree with GJM completely. Knowing what I know now, I’d have turned my 870 into a hunting gun and started with a 1301 and an H1/T1 or the Primary Arms clone.

“Expertise” should be read with a healthy dose of irony.

RJ
10-13-2018, 05:03 PM
My “expertise” come solely from taking DB’s class a couple of times with an 870

I agree with GJM completely. Knowing what I know now, I’d have turned my 870 into a hunting gun and started with a 1301 and an H1/T1 or the Primary Arms clone.

“Expertise” should be read with a healthy dose of irony.

So you guys are saying this:

https://www.armsunlimited.com/Beretta-1301-Tactical-Semi-Auto-12-GA-Shotgun-p/j131t18le.htm

...might turn out to be cheaper (after I bought and sold an 870) in the long run, and actually would be more reliable for the new shooter?

Huh.

Ok, I will rethink things.

Still kinda believe its a want, not a need. But I will follow up if I ever get to the local range and shoot one. Or at TacCon.

Much obliged.

David S.
10-13-2018, 05:08 PM
The auto is simpler to run and should be much easier on your body.

Drang
10-13-2018, 05:47 PM
From what I understand a 870 Police seems to be the Glock 19 of shotguns...
Well, the 870 Police Magnum is no longer in production, so...

The pump shotgun was the ne plus ultra of home defense for decades. Semi-autos were considered to be unrelaible.
Also, you don't have to aim a shotgun, and just hearing you rack the pump will scare the bad guys away.

For most purposes, most people will be better served by a reliable AR15-patttern rifle.

Which does not explain why I want to up my defensive shotgun game, not should it be interpreted to mean I don't think you should get a defensive shotgun game. Get the 1301T, take classes from Tom Givens and jlw. Stock up on Flite Control buckshot (preferably #1m (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1m) if you can find it.)

Isaac
10-13-2018, 06:26 PM
There is a review on that website you posted saying that 1301 is the older generation. Not sure if that's still the case, but just something to ask about if that matters to you.

jlw
10-13-2018, 06:38 PM
The shotgun is starting to make somewhat of a come back in the training circuit. I don't know if it is because people are burning out on the carbine, or if the persistent drum beating of the faithful is starting to get through.

I'll be offering my traditional Manipulations and Social Shotgun courses in 2019, but I also plan to have something beyond what we've been doing in those classes.

Inspector71
10-13-2018, 06:49 PM
Old school shotgun training, about seven minutes into this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRpneRYaRNU

oregon45
10-13-2018, 07:11 PM
The economics of building a reliable Remington 870 with modern upgrades are approaching the cost of a Beretta 1301 / Benelli M2. For the sake of discussion, let's start with a Remington 870 Wingmaster from the 1970s. I have been thinking about doing a project along these lines for some time. A clean 70's Wingmaster can be bought for about $250 in my neighborhood. Here are what I consider to be required modifications, and my estimate of what they would cost me to have my gunsmith perform them. Cut and crown the barrel at 18.5" ($35), install front and rear sights, ($75 plus sights, total approx. $275 if using Wilson/XS, etc.) install flexitab system: carrier, bolt, etc. ($35 plus parts, total approx. $160), install Wilson +1 magazine extension, magazine spring and follower, ($45), install new forend (if needed; Magpul forend costs $35), install new stock or cut current stock to 12.5" LOP ($75 to cut and install pad, or $105 for Magpul SGA stock). Total after modifications: $875-900. And those costs do not include any "performance" gunsmithing, just parts and installation.

After running the numbers (they are similar for Mossberg 590's as well) I decided to save up a little longer and buy a Beretta 1301 Tactical.

On the other hand, if you prefer your Wingmaster to look and feel as it did back in the day, just cut the barrel and stock and be done with it. Here's my old school 16ga Wingmaster modified along those lines:

https://i.imgur.com/XVtlAtR.jpg?1

pangloss
10-13-2018, 07:37 PM
Well, the 870 Police Magnum is no longer in production, so...

Nevertheless there's no shortage of old LE trade in guns (Police and Wingmasters) on Gunbroker. A month or two ago, I bought what looks to be a pre-"Police" model 870 Police for ~$200 including shipping and FFL fees. Add a +1 extension from Wilson Combat and a MagPul stock, and you'll come in at under $400. If you decided you don't like it, it should be pretty easy to part out and get most of your money back. Admittedly, I'm biased as I've been shooting 870s since I graduated from my single shot 20 gauge. I'm not saying it's superior to an autoloader, but it's not a big financial commitment to spend some time exploring it as an option. Whatever you do, don't buy a recent production Express model.

EDIT: The $200 gun I bought came with an 18.5" barrel and ramp+bead front sight.

Drang
10-13-2018, 10:05 PM
Well, the 870 Police Magnum is no longer in production, so...


Nevertheless there's no shortage of old LE trade in guns (Police and Wingmasters) on Gunbroker.

My point was that the comparison of an 870 Police Magnum or Wingmaster to a Glock 19 was a bit inaccurate. The 870 is more the 1911 of the long gun world, the AR15 is more the Glock...

David S.
10-13-2018, 10:27 PM
For strictly in-home defense at <15-20 yards, I think one could have a very capable sub 20 yard HD 870 for under $700 if you find components on sale, or $900 if you add an optic.

$275 for preowned 18" 870P or Wingmaster with bead sight. (Using Oregon45's price)
Vang Big Dome safety ($15).

Suggested adds, but would have to be added to the Beretta too.
-proper LOP ($110 Magpul SGA)
-forend with WML mount ($60 FAB Mako or Magpul)
-WML ($100 Streamlight TLR-1/Inforce)
-Side Saddle ($80?)

Long gun holster:
A forward sling mount ($25, Magpul)
Blue Force Gear sling ($50)

Optional, but significantly improves range.
Red dot. ($150, Primary Arms Advanced Micro)
Scope mount rail ($50?)

--------------
The Beretta 1301 starts at $850
Add $325 in Aridus parts and another $110 for Magpul stock
$100 for a WML
Same price for the sling setup
Aridus side saddle $150
Optional $150 PA red dot and $125 for Aridus CROM
--------------

I think the 870 still wins on price.
For the civilian defender, the ability to simply swap in a 28" hunting barrel might be attractive feature.

The 1301 is more refined, absorbs some of the recoil and can't be short stroked.

Wheeler
10-14-2018, 12:40 AM
I guess I need to start upgrading my splatter guns with all these must have additions soonest! I guess the tactical vent rib barrel on my Smiff 3k ain't gonna cut it anymore. :D

BigT
10-14-2018, 01:29 PM
Pump guns are like revolvers or 1911's. Cool and all, but really enthusiast guns for any serious business.

Something like a 1301 will be more shootable and more reliable.

Wheeler
10-14-2018, 01:47 PM
Pump guns are like revolvers or 1911's. Cool and all, but really enthusiast guns for any serious business.

Something like a 1301 will be more shootable and more reliable.

I suppose in the minds of most of Gun Culture 2.0 that’s accurate. Somehow folks managed to make them work well for 120 plus years prior to the advent of reliable semi autos. I guess anything with a mechanical action has been relegated to the ‘enthusiast gun’ status to those that don’t want to put in the extra work.

Before all the pedants get upset, I’m not saying a pump can be ran as fast as a 1301 or M2. What I’m saying is they can be ran fast enough for social work, which is a lot different than the action matches that most folks experience running a shotgun.

GJM
10-14-2018, 01:52 PM
To me, an 870 shotgun is like a 1911, with a range of quality from terrible to excellent. A new to shotguns person is probably going to have a hard time figuring out what to go with and what mods are required. I would just get a 1301, and skip all the doodads. A new guy will shoot circles around an 870 with a 1301 or Benelli.

TGS
10-14-2018, 03:18 PM
Somehow folks managed to make them work well for 120 plus years prior to the advent of reliable semi autos.

Note that I don't really have a problem with pump action shotguns.

However, I'd leave this part out of your platform/argument in the future. The rest of your post and reasoning was good, particularly in pointing out that they're sufficient for social purposes. What is quoted above makes me cringe, though.

"If it was good enough for grandpappy it's good enough for me."

"If it's good enough for John Browning, it's good enough today."

Not to mention that prior to metallic cartridges, people were able to make percussion fired weapons work "well". And prior to percussion, people were able to make flintlocks work "well". And prior to flintlocks, people were able to make matchlocks work "well". And prior to that, people were able to make halberds, swords, and arrows work well. The problem is that this is all based on historical context (relativism), instead of objective reasoning. Your position is better served by just leaving this part out, and sticking to the objective reasoning that, "Yes, while a 1301 is a clear technical advancement, the fact remains that a quality pump action is an affordable and completely sufficient option for home defense uses, as well as being versatile to use for other non-defense roles".

It's also wildly inaccurate. Reliable semi-autos existed only a couple decades after pump action shotguns hit the market, not 120 years. They may not have been reliable with a wide range of loads, but they were reliable with what they were designed to do.

jlw
10-14-2018, 04:23 PM
Pump guns are like revolvers or 1911's. Cool and all, but really enthusiast guns for any serious business.

Something like a 1301 will be more shootable and more reliable.

I would considering myself a learner enthusiast of the gauge, and with an 870 I can run rings around myself when shooting an auto loader.

Unobtanium
10-14-2018, 05:38 PM
To me, an 870 shotgun is like a 1911, with a range of quality from terrible to excellent. A new to shotguns person is probably going to have a hard time figuring out what to go with and what mods are required. I would just get a 1301, and skip all the doodads. A new guy will shoot circles around an 870 with a 1301 or Benelli.

A properly built 870 runs fine. I've never seen or owned a 1911 that ran fine, whether it cost me $1800, or $4500. I've never owned one cheaper than that to comment.

Wheeler
10-14-2018, 05:50 PM
Note that I don't really have a problem with pump action shotguns.

However, I'd leave this part out of your platform/argument in the future. The rest of your post and reasoning was good, particularly in pointing out that they're sufficient for social purposes. What is quoted above makes me cringe, though.

"If it was good enough for grandpappy it's good enough for me."

"If it's good enough for John Browning, it's good enough today."

Not to mention that prior to metallic cartridges, people were able to make percussion fired weapons work "well". And prior to percussion, people were able to make flintlocks work "well". And prior to flintlocks, people were able to make matchlocks work "well". And prior to that, people were able to make halberds, swords, and arrows work well. The problem is that this is all based on historical context (relativism), instead of objective reasoning. Your position is better served by just leaving this part out, and sticking to the objective reasoning that, "Yes, while a 1301 is a clear technical advancement, the fact remains that a quality pump action is an affordable and completely sufficient option for home defense uses, as well as being versatile to use for other non-defense roles".

It's also wildly inaccurate. Reliable semi-autos existed only a couple decades after pump action shotguns hit the market, not 120 years. They may not have been reliable with a wide range of loads, but they were reliable with what they were designed to do.

The problem with saying something works well for me is the cognoscenti automatically default to the assumption that only Fudds use that terminology and it has no place in the current Gun Culture 2.0. These are typically the same people that can’t understand how someone can run a double action revolver better than a Glock 19 and don’t care about carrying a double digit number of rounds. In other words I knew exactly what sort of response it would garner and I stand by my assertion. It’s also prudent to note that there are a few thousand rounds of shot through the tubes of multiple shotguns, including an 80 year old Model 11 16 gauge that I used to shoot 3 gun with.

The point that most folks seem to miss is that there’s fast, and then there’s fast enough. Once we get past fast enough the measurement is onlynacademic and for competitive purposes.

It’s also prudent to note that there are no absolutes when choosing a defensive firearm. The choice is as subjective as picking out underwear or shoes. So when you come across a post of mine that uses that sort of terminology that implies something is good enough, please keep in mind that I’m not referring to the guy that shoots 5 rounds a year to score a turkey nor am I discounting the mechanical superiority of a newer system.

Also, comparing the history of pumps and semis over the past 120 years to muskets is a bit specious.

jlw
10-14-2018, 06:15 PM
Why do you think that is?

On multiple shots on the same target, the semi has a slight advantage, but that advantage disappears if doing multiple targets or any sort of manipulations. Throwing the slide back and forth is "easier" than hitting a bolt release, at least to me.

TGS
10-14-2018, 07:04 PM
The problem with saying something works well for me is the cognoscenti automatically default to the assumption that only Fudds use that terminology and it has no place in the current Gun Culture 2.0. These are typically the same people that can’t understand how someone can run a double action revolver better than a Glock 19 and don’t care about carrying a double digit number of rounds. In other words I knew exactly what sort of response it would garner and I stand by my assertion.

I think your being needlessly argumentative and stand-off'ish about the entire thing, to include your framing it as a "pump vs gun culture 2.0" issue. It's not; the two are not mutually exclusive. Plus, if you're posting stuff simply to garner a particular and expected negative reaction, I don't think that's particularly useful.


Also, comparing the history of pumps and semis over the past 120 years to muskets is a bit specious.

It's not specious, it's pointing out a logical fallacy through illustration. A logical fallacy which you've basically already admitted was simply to evoke a negative reaction.

Wheeler
10-14-2018, 07:56 PM
I think your being needlessly argumentative and stand-off'ish about the entire thing, to include your framing it as a "pump vs gun culture 2.0" issue. It's not; the two are not mutually exclusive. Plus, if you're posting stuff simply to garner a particular and expected negative reaction, I don't think that's particularly useful.



It's not specious, it's pointing out a logical fallacy through illustration. A logical fallacy which you've basically already admitted was simply to evoke a negative reaction.

You’re mistaking my not caring what other folks think about how I go about doing things with an attempt to troll or be argumentative. You articulated a criticism, I responded. You chose to ignore the part about personal experience in your rush to point out your perception of my fallacies.

Thanks for the interesting conversation. Have a good night.

Darth_Uno
10-15-2018, 01:06 AM
A properly built 870 runs fine. I've never seen or owned a 1911 that ran fine, whether it cost me $1800, or $4500. I've never owned one cheaper than that to comment.

I had a Taurus 1911 that ran like a wanted felon, unlike others I’ve had that cost 2-4x as much.

I’ve also never seen an 870 that wouldn’t run, unless it was entirely gunked up from never being cleaned, or had a catastrophic part failure (saw an extractor shear off once). In a class I took, all of the pumps ran fine short of shooter-induced error (short stroke) while all of the semis had at least one malfunction. Small sample size there though, I admit, and I think the semis were two Remingtons and a Mossberg.

Look at 3 Gun though. Nobody is running a pump. And a lot of match stuff isn’t practical for other uses, but those guys know what works. Semi is faster, period.

All that said I own a couple 870’s and never got around to buying a 1301 even though it’s been on the short list for a couple years. So there’s that.


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Unobtanium
10-15-2018, 01:50 AM
I had a Taurus 1911 that ran like a wanted felon, unlike others I’ve had that cost 2-4x as much.

I’ve also never seen an 870 that wouldn’t run, unless it was entirely gunked up from never being cleaned, or had a catastrophic part failure (saw an extractor shear off once). In a class I took, all of the pumps ran fine short of shooter-induced error (short stroke) while all of the semis had at least one malfunction. Small sample size there though, I admit, and I think the semis were two Remingtons and a Mossberg.

Look at 3 Gun though. Nobody is running a pump. And a lot of match stuff isn’t practical for other uses, but those guys know what works. Semi is faster, period.

All that said I own a couple 870’s and never got around to buying a 1301 even though it’s been on the short list for a couple years. So there’s that.


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The benelli dominates 3 gun and heavy metal for pump.

Drang
10-15-2018, 04:18 AM
A properly built 870 runs fine. I've never seen or owned a 1911 that ran fine, whether it cost me $1800, or $4500. I've never owned one cheaper than that to comment.

And I have two 1911s, one built in the early 80s, both of which run fine with JHP ammo. The only issues I've ever had have bene magazine related, or self-inflicted.

/digression.