Return of Mallet: Mallet vs PPQ

[Doc_Glock]

In Mallet 1, I was able to get a VP9 to release its striker with a hit on the bottom of the grip.

Today I spent some time looking at the internals of a PPQ, a pistol I really, really like, with arguably the best trigger in the SFA world. I had previously been a little smug because there is no way a PPQ can release its striker when hit on the bottom of the grip. However inspection and a little thought showed me that it may have a weakness when hit on the back of the slide.

Mr Mallet came out and in this video I demonstrate a Walther PPQ M1 releasing its striker with a mallet hit to the rear of the slide and with a drop of 18" landing the rear of the slide. I also made this happen with a Walther P99 AS trigger and imagine it would work the same in a PPQ M2 or any PPQ variant.

I apologize for any incorrect terminology in demonstrating the pistol's internal parts.


https://youtu.be/5YPYjox5qIo

To make it clear, the pistol would not discharge unless the striker channel block simultaneously malfunctioned.

The VP9 required a much harder hit than the PPQ to release FWIW.

It makes me a little sad, as it rules out, at least for me the PPQ as a carry pistol. The P99 AS I tested decocker and was able to fire in double action mode after the hit or drop.

[ralph]

Well,There's always DA/SA pistols....

[olstyn]

I also made this happen with a Walther P99 AS trigger
The P99 AS I tested decocker and was able to fire in double action mode after the hit or drop.

Seems to me that it's merely a curiosity in the P99, since that pistol should be carried decocked anyway.

[GJM]

This makes me sad.

[dwcopple]

Canik pistols use the same setup. Try one of those if u can

[olstyn]

It's hard to tell since I own neither a P99 AS or PPQ (and Photobucket recently broke the internet), but the PPQ internals look an awful lot like the P99 AS but slightly modified to omit the DA feature.

That's exactly correct; the PPQ is simply a P99 that is single action only with some cosmetic changes. I'm not debating that. I'm merely saying that releasing the striker from a cocked position by an impact to the rear of the slide on the P99 is not likely to be relevant, because it's meant to be carried decocked, and therefore the striker is already "released" in the scenario that was put forth as problematic in the previous thread regarding similar behavior with the VP9. It won't get more released than its at rest position no matter how many times or how hard someone whacks it.

[rd62]

Isn't this exactly one of the reasons striker fired pistols usually feature a striker block?

[olstyn]

Like I said, I have no experience with either pistol. Was the P99 AS intended to be carried decocked, or was it just capable of doing so? I realize it's a distinction that's largely irrelevant, I'm just curious. :)

That's a point that some folks have debated on the Walther forum based on different versions of the manual that have come out over time, but how many no manual safety DA/SA pistols are there that aren't intended to be carried decocked? In my OPINION, it's silly to carry the P99 in AS or SA mode. I'm not going to claim that it's necessarily unsafe, but if you intend to do that, it makes more sense to just buy a PPQ, no? Beyond that, even if the striker falls and gets caught by the safety plunger on the P99, the gun is still able to be fired simply by pulling the trigger. Moral of the story? (Again IMO, and heavily tongue in cheek.) DA/SA is a superior system to SAO, especially in striker-fired guns. :)

Alternate, sadder moral of the story: Glocks are better than VP9s and PPQs, and therefore must be perfect after all? :(

[olstyn]

Isn't this exactly one of the reasons striker fired pistols usually feature a striker block?

Yes. The major concern that was brought up in the previous thread on similar behavior in the VP9 is that an unnoticed impact while the gun was holstered could potentially leave the gun with a dead trigger, which could lead to it being unable to be fired when drawn in a time of need.

[GJM]

Like I said, I have no experience with either pistol. Was the P99 AS intended to be carried decocked, or was it just capable of doing so? I realize it's a distinction that's largely irrelevant, I'm just curious. :)


Wars have been fought over this on the Walther forum.

Back to the main issue, there seem two relevant questions. If the fully tensioned striker drops, will it fire. The answer seems to be no, if the firing block safety works. Second question is if the striker drops, but does not fire, will you end up with a dead trigger, and the answer seems to be yes.

I do understand that the conditions causing these strikers to drop are pretty unlikely to happen, but at the same time, many of us carry firearms to be able to respond to statistically unlikely situations.

[breakingtime91]

Wars have been fought over this on the Walther forum.

Back to the main issue, there seem two relevant questions. If the fully tensioned striker drops, will it fire. The answer seems to be no, if the firing block safety works. Second question is if the striker drops, but does not fire, will you end up with a dead trigger, and the answer seems to be yes.

I do understand that the conditions causing these strikers to drop are pretty unlikely to happen, but at the same time, many of us carry firearms to be able to respond to statistically unlikely situations.

Seems like the go to either has to be hammer fire guns or striker types like glock or the new cz..

[holmes168]

Good to see the youtube video to go along with it. I was pretty interested in your VP9 test- I still carry mine and have not had any issues with it or could recreate the striker dropping. I am looking forward to seeing what you test next or have you done this with other pistols in the past? I will say- I can't imagine dropping my pistol 18" on purpose! Looks like I need to go get my PPQ out.

EDIT- clarify my carry is the VP9SK.

[holmes168]

Seems like the go to either has to be hammer fire guns or striker types like glock or the new cz..

What is the difference in the glock/cz vs. the VP9/PPQ?

[breakingtime91]

What is the difference in the glock/cz vs. the VP9/PPQ?

If my recollection serves me right, glock is not a fully tensioned striker. I am also going off my memory of extensive testing on the glock vs other striker guns out there.

[breakingtime91]

The Glock and CZ are partially tensioned striker designs (which isn't particularly relevant) that have "drop safety" features that require the trigger bar to move rearward before it is physically possible for the trigger bar to move downward and release the striker (which is relevant).

Thanks Tom, I don't engineer so good.:cool:

[holmes168]

The Glock and CZ are partially tensioned striker designs (which isn't particularly relevant) that have "drop safety" features that require the trigger bar to move rearward before it is physically possible for the trigger bar to move downward and release the striker (which is relevant).

Tom- trying to do some learning during the US v Costa Rica soccer match this evening. Is this part of the "Safe Action" of a Glock? Would the difference make the VP9/PPQ easier to have a ND with? Also- is this why pistols like the VP9 are more dangerous to AIWB with? Ok- last follow up- does this make the Glock safer to AIWB with (and yes- I am tracking the gadget!)? Thank you for the help- lots to learn about pistols. As an infantry guy- I would have been better throwing my M9 at someone than shooting it.

[OlongJohnson]

OK, so I'm glad I always talked myself out of buying a VP9 or PPQ. Liking my hammers.

[LockedBreech]

I did the whack test on my 2014-production VP9 tonight (BF code) and was not able to get my striker to release with pretty good raps to the grip and the back of the slide. Guess I'm lucky.

Had a lot of fun taking $25 off the resale value of the gun by bapping it a bunch though.

[GJM]

Seems like the go to either has to be hammer fire guns or striker types like glock or the new cz..

I can see where this is headed. By fall, we will all be shooting P30 LEM pistols.

[breakingtime91]

I can see where this is headed. By fall, we will all be shooting P30 LEM pistols.

Please don't tell me that. My lems are all gone now (well I still have one so maybe I'll be OK.

[Doc_Glock]

This makes me sad.

I very much agree with this sentiment.

[holmes168]

I can see where this is headed. By fall, we will all be shooting P30 LEM pistols.

I know you are saying that- slightly tongue and cheek, but is a pistol with a hammer that much safer? I somewhat understand the basics between hammer vs. striker, but am genuinely interested in learning more (and the reasons why). I actually found an old striker design thread that I believe you started which is helping. The more and more I read on PF- it seems that hammer fired pistols are the best option if you are carrying full time.

[Doc_Glock]

I know you are saying that- slightly tongue and cheek, but is a pistol with a hammer that much safer? I somewhat understand the basics between hammer vs. striker, but am genuinely interested in learning more (and the reasons why). I actually found an old striker design thread that I believe you started which is helping. The more and more I read on PF- it seems that hammer fired pistols are the best option if you are carrying full time.

I would like to learn this as well. I honestly don't know if a hammer fired gun is necessarily any more immune from drop forces, especially in SA mode. The Berettas I have inspected seem dang near impossible to discharge without a trigger pull when decocked.

[M2CattleCo]

I think the HK LEM is probably the mechanically safest pistol out there.

Plenty of people carrying Glocks full time. I carry one full time in everything from dust to rain, airplanes to bulldozers.

[azerious]

Will this trigger (pun intended) a Glock striker and give you a dead trigger?

[holmes168]

I would like to learn this as well. I honestly don't know if a hammer fired gun is necessarily any more immune from drop forces, especially in SA mode. The Berettas I have inspected seem dang near impossible to discharge without a trigger pull when decocked.

Probably like most- I continue to look for the best option to carry. I really like how the VP9 and SK versions work for me. However- there could be options just as good out there- I am getting an inheritance later this year and will spend part of it on new pistol(s) so am trying to do my research now. The test you are doing is important to me as I figure out what I want to carry. I tried to re-create on the VP's, but could not- so my worries aren't with my pistols. But- I also wouldn't mind having the option of AIWB in the future- which is putting me down the path of a hammer fired gun- P30SK, P229, or PX4CC are my top three options. Or put a gadget on a glock or maybe wait for a gadget something like........a P320.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but your tests are forcing me to reconsider striker fired guns. The mass marketing on SF makes it harder for new shooters to decide which gun is best for them- when I started to shoot/learn more- I found out that hammer fired guns are a great option, maybe even better.

[Guinnessman]

I can see where this is headed. By fall, we will all be shooting P30 LEM pistols.

#MakePistolForumGreatAgain (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MakePistolForumGreatAgain)

;):p

[coN]

What about the M&P? The striker is almost (or is) at max tension, but it uses a shepherds hook to cam the sear when the trigger is pressed to release the striker. I am curious about this since on numerous platforms, you can get the striker to release. Any details?

Seeing this sorta stuff kinda makes me glad I invested in the Glock platform (i have previously owned a PPQ, P320, etc) but I still have a smidgen of M&P (4.25 9MM 2.0, and a 9MM shield) and would like to know if it passes the mallet/drop test.

[blues]

Glock's anticipated reply to this thread:

https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/apple/96/smirking-face_1f60f.png

"Tolja so!"

Glock. Gadget. Alles Gut.

[Hambo]

I can see where this is headed. By fall, we will all be shooting P30 LEM pistols.

Walk toward the light...https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26789-Special-Run-Beretta-M9-Project

[Greg]

You want a "better" trigger in a striker fired action? > TANSTAAFL

[ralph]

Walk toward the light...https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26789-Special-Run-Beretta-M9-Project

I'm torn...I have a Inox Vertec with the G levers installed, and a 14 lb wilson (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=14wilson) hammer spring, steel trigger, extended mag release, this week via a trade, I picked up a NIB HK USP with light LEM...what to do? :rolleyes:

[Doc_Glock]

What about the M&P? The striker is almost (or is) at max tension, but it uses a shepherds hook to cam the sear when the trigger is pressed to release the striker. I am curious about this since on numerous platforms, you can get the striker to release. Any details?

Seeing this sorta stuff kinda makes me glad I invested in the Glock platform (i have previously owned a PPQ, P320, etc) but I still have a smidgen of M&P (4.25 9MM 2.0, and a 9MM shield) and would like to know if it passes the mallet/drop test.

I simply don't care for M&Ps and never have even done more than hold one. Just personal bias.

P320 passes everything I can throw at it but has the -potential- to release the sear with a hit to the bottom of the grip.

[StraitR]

I did the whack test on my 2014-production VP9 tonight (BF code) and was not able to get my striker to release with pretty good raps to the grip and the back of the slide. Guess I'm lucky.

Had a lot of fun taking $25 off the resale value of the gun by bapping it a bunch though.

LOL. Nah, you actually increased it's resale value by $25, it's now "Certified Mallet-Proof".

[GardoneVT]

LOL. Nah, you actually increased it's resale value by $25, it's now "Certified Mallet-Proof".

"Tactical Distressed Finish" is in this year.

[GAP]

I don't think the VP9 is any more dangerous (or the Glock any safer) to AIWB with. Pretty much any modern, properly maintained and functioning (and used), gun sitting an AIWB (or any other position) holster on your belt is essentially just as safe as any other (I'm sure there are plenty of examples of shitty guns being shitty and not being safe -- I'm not talking about those). The "issue" is getting it safely in the holster. Certainly everyone should holster slowly/reluctantly and carefully make sure that there are no holster obstructions or objects that could snag the trigger on it's way into the holster, but for many people (myself included) having a way (either by thumbing the hammer or SCD-like device, or using a thumb safety or grip safety) to mitigate any disastrous consequences of making a mistake or missing something is, for lack of a better term, comforting and reassuring. I think this is even more important with behind the hip carry than AIWB because I can easily see into an AIWB holster -- which is something I can't do with a holster behind my hip.


This..

My take on it is that once the gun is in the holster you are good. If I thought a pistol could fire on its own I'd get them out of my home immediately.

Much like the unlikely fantasy of waxing four AK weilding terrorists and saving the day in a shopping mall, some CCW holders seem to think the gun will miraculously fall apart and disengage the various passive safeties at the same time and blow a hole in their femoral.

Mount the gun/Holster as one piece and carry on. You should be using a foam wedge when carrying appendix anyway. ;)

[breakingtime91]

This..

My take on it is that once the gun is in the holster you are good. If I thought a pistol could fire on its own I'd get them out of my home immediately.

Much like the unlikely fantasy of waxing four AK weilding terrorists and saving the day in a shopping mall, some CCW holders seem to think the gun will miraculously fall apart and disengage the various passive safeties at the same time and blow a hole in their femoral.

Mount the gun/Holster as one piece and carry on. You should be using a foam wedge when carrying appendix anyway. ;)

I think the thing most people are getting at is you could potentially knock your gun hard enough to have a dead trigger in the case that you needed it. Given that there are other options that wouldn't do this, why risk it?

[GJM]

I think the thing most people are getting at is you could potentially knock your gun hard enough to have a dead trigger in the case that you needed it. Given that there are other options that wouldn't do this, why risk it?

I think it is both things. With a fully tensioned striker (Tom had some different language, that described the design difference better, which I have already forgot), an impact could cause the striker to release, making the firing block safety what is preventing the gun discharging, AND the striker slipping could cause the gun to not fire, possibly at a time you need the gun to fire. It has been a while, but wasn't an instance of a holstered 320 discharging in an officer's holster, as he went about his day, something that started us on these related topics?

As to what you pick, there are many trade offs -- reliability, accuracy, shootability, and many other considerations, that influence what you pick. Some people find a hammer mandatory, others can't abide by BTF, or grip angle, or weight, and on and on. There has yet to be the perfect pistol, and I don't see that changing anytime soon!

[GAP]

I think the thing most people are getting at is you could potentially knock your gun hard enough to have a dead trigger in the case that you needed it. Given that there are other options that wouldn't do this, why risk it?

Yes, a concern, but that's not what I quoted.

[breakingtime91]

I think it is both things. With a fully tensioned striker (Tom had some different language, that described the design difference better, which I have already forgot), an impact could cause the striker to release, making the firing block safety what is preventing the gun discharging, AND the striker slipping could cause the gun to not fire, possibly at a time you need the gun to fire. It has been a while, but wasn't an instance of a holstered 320 discharging in an officer's holster, as he went about his day, something that started us on these related topics?

As to what you pick, there are many trade offs -- reliability, accuracy, shootability, and many other considerations, that influence what you pick. Some people find a hammer mandatory, others can't abide by BTF, or grip angle, or weight, and on and on. There has yet to be the perfect pistol, and I don't see that changing anytime soon!

nicely said George.

[breakingtime91]

Yes, a concern, but that's not what I quoted.

But you stated that once the gun was holstered your good? Good means gun won't kill me while holstered and it will work when drawn. I was pointing out there is a potential with certain guns to have that not be the case.

[StraitR]

This..

My take on it is that once the gun is in the holster you are good. If I thought a pistol could fire on its own I'd get them out of my home immediately.

Much like the unlikely fantasy of waxing four AK weilding terrorists and saving the day in a shopping mall, some CCW holders seem to think the gun will miraculously fall apart and disengage the various passive safeties at the same time and blow a hole in their femoral.

Mount the gun/Holster as one piece and carry on. You should be using a foam wedge when carrying appendix anyway. ;)

Wasn't there just a reported case of a P320 going off in a holster? The dead trigger is obviously a really bad scenario as well.

[GAP]

But you stated that once the gun was holstered your good? Good means gun won't kill me while holstered and it will work when drawn. I was pointing out there is a potential with certain guns to have that not be the case.

In the context of the reply "good" meant won't kill you.


Wasn't there just a reported case of a P320 going off in a holster? The dead trigger is obviously a really bad scenario as well.

Seems sketchy, is there an official report? If so, that is beyond disturbing.

[BJXDS]

That Really Sucks, I really liked everything about the PPQ, and now this. So now I am trying to decided what is the chance I will need to shoot my PPQ after it is hit on the rear of the slide with a mallet? :confused: But seriously I don't think its a good idea to carry a gun that is disabled by a drop. In my mind it failed the drop test too.

I am also surprised this is the first I have heard of this. I was secretly hoping for a PPQ gadget, NOT so much now.

[Mitch]

That Really Sucks, I really liked everything about the PPQ, and now this. So now I am trying to decided what is the chance I will need to shoot my PPQ after it is hit on the rear of the slide with a mallet? :confused: But seriously I don't think its a good idea to carry a gun that is disabled by a drop. In my mind it failed the drop test too.

I am also surprised this is the first I have heard of this. I was secretly hoping for a PPQ gadget, NOT so much now.

You probably have a higher chance of a bad round in the chamber than this happening. Either way remedial action fixes both problems. If you like everything else about the gun this personally wouldn't talk me out of it.

Actually discharging on impact is a whole other issue, and going off in the holster is even worse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[coN]

I simply don't care for M&Ps and never have even done more than hold one. Just personal bias.

P320 passes everything I can throw at it but has the -potential- to release the sear with a hit to the bottom of the grip.

Fair enough. I stuck with Glocks and M&Ps for their simplicity, and moreover, I shoot them very well outside my 1911's.

[pastaslinger]

did it actually fire or are you just releasing the striker into a drop safety which is blocking it from getting far enough to impact a primer?

[JCS]

Wasn't there just a reported case of a P320 going off in a holster? The dead trigger is obviously a really bad scenario as well.


In the context of the reply "good" meant won't kill you.



Seems sketchy, is there an official report? If so, that is beyond disturbing.

Here's the post citing the discharges in a holster.
Glock 19M...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=18787&share_tid=24159&share_pid=626756&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpistol-forum%2Ecom%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D626756&share_type=t

I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention. Multiple cases of p320s going off in holsters is terrifying.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GAP]

Here's the post citing the discharges in a holster.
Glock 19M...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=18787&share_tid=24159&share_pid=626756&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpistol-forum%2Ecom%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D626756&share_type=t

I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention. Multiple cases of p320s going off in holsters is terrifying.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow. Thanks, missed that post.

So.. any instances of this with a Glock? Ever?

[holmes168]

I don't think the VP9 is any more dangerous (or the Glock any safer) to AIWB with. Pretty much any modern, properly maintained and functioning (and used), gun sitting an AIWB (or any other position) holster on your belt is essentially just as safe as any other (I'm sure there are plenty of examples of shitty guns being shitty and not being safe -- I'm not talking about those). The "issue" is getting it safely in the holster. Certainly everyone should holster slowly/reluctantly and carefully make sure that there are no holster obstructions or objects that could snag the trigger on it's way into the holster, but for many people (myself included) having a way (either by thumbing the hammer or SCD-like device, or using a thumb safety or grip safety) to mitigate any disastrous consequences of making a mistake or missing something is, for lack of a better term, comforting and reassuring. I think this is even more important with behind the hip carry than AIWB because I can easily see into an AIWB holster -- which is something I can't do with a holster behind my hip."


Thank you for your answer. This really helped a lot- I keep wondering why I read people saying they don't like having a fully tensioned striker pointing at their femoral (ok- i know why in the big picture- i don't like having guns pointing at me period), but wasn't sure if they meant in the holster or during the re-holster. In some ways- I believe AIWB could be safer than SS IWB- I find myself not paying as much attention when putting my pistol away as I should. In some ways- I could see lazy people shooting themselves in the leg more often than the femoral- either can be deadly, maybe one just more so. Again- thank you to everyone for this discussion- this is a great community of people.

EDIT- I messed something when quoting Tom so tried to distinguish his comments with italics.

[StraitR]

Here's the post citing the discharges in a holster.
Glock 19M...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=18787&share_tid=24159&share_pid=626756&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpistol-forum%2Ecom%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D626756&share_type=t

I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention. Multiple cases of p320s going off in holsters is terrifying.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. I went back and found it myself, but you beat me. Your link doesn't seem to work outside of Tapatalk, takes me to the first page of the thread, so here it is for non-mobile device users...

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24159-Glock-19M&p=626756&viewfull=1#post626756

As far as whether it was confirmed, one would have to ask Trooper directly, but it seems pretty concrete based on his post. Just to be clear, he referenced two AD's; one pistol spontaneously discharged while holstered and sitting in a cruiser, the other was dropped.

[blues]

There is a common misconception, perpetuated by pretty much everyone, that the Glock striker being less-than-fully tensioned is a safety feature and it lacks the energy to set off a primer. This is not true (maybe it's true for some primers but certainly not for all of them). It's just a manifestation of the overall (and in my opinion, exceedingly clever) design.

I, for one, think it's clever to own firearms which feature mechanisms considered clever by clever people. Safety via redundancy. ;)

[M2CattleCo]

I, for one, think it's clever to own firearms which feature mechanisms considered clever by clever people. Safety via redundancy. ;)

I thought I knew all there was to know about Glocks ten years ago. Turns out, I'm still learning, and they're turning out to be a better choice than anticipated.

[GAP]

If I was clever, or maybe just literate, I would have said "artifact of the overall design" instead of manifestation. Words are hard.

So am I eating my words and jumping on the PX4 CC train for a trial.. or sticking with Glocks and hoping for the best? ;)

[GAP]

I thought I knew all there was to know about Glocks ten years ago. Turns out, I'm still learning, and they're turning out to be a better choice than anticipated.

Can you please expand on that?

[blues]

If I was clever, or maybe just literate, I would have said "artifact of the overall design" instead of manifestation. Words are hard.

Now you're just using artifice to obfuscate your cleverness. And them artifacts*. ;)


(*are the facts)

[schüler]

...The dead trigger is obviously a really bad scenario as well...

Cycling slide on draw... mebbe them Israelis are on to something... [emoji6]

[JonInWA]

Cycling slide on draw... mebbe them Israelis are on to something... [emoji6]

I think that technique was somewhat dictated by the characteristics/limitations of the pistols on hand at the time; my understanding is that they've pretty much transitioned to Glocks (presumably G17), so I doubt if that's still their protocol. But I'm guessing-hopefully someone knowledgeable will chime in.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I can see where this is headed. By fall, we will all be shooting P30 LEM pistols.

And, many things considered, that's not necessarily a bad place to be...

Best, Jon

[Rex G]

Interesting; thanks. It seems I may well be staying with Glocks and hammer guns, for reasons other than just budgetary.

[M2CattleCo]

Can you please expand on that?

Cheap, reliable, safe, shootable enough, come in a size for every occasion, easily detail stripped, lots of good sights and holsters readily available. As soon as the Gadget is out for the 43, I won't have anything to wish for. I'm not sure if I handle that:confused:

[Drang]

As soon as the Gadget is out for the 43, I won't have anything to wish for. I'm not sure if I handle that:confused:
I'm sure you'll think of something; I know if I couldn't, someone else in the household would.

[Peally]

Someone please test a HiPoint for me.

[Greg]

Hmmm , 8 pages and the thread hasn't spawned a sidetrack into discussions about rubber mallets.

Wood vs synthetic handles, weight of the head, durometer rating of the rubber..... :cool:

[ralph]

Hmmm , 8 pages and the thread hasn't spawned a sidetrack into discussions about rubber mallets.

Wood vs synthetic handles, weight of the head, durometer rating of the rubber..... :cool:

You forgot deadblow....

[StraitR]

Hmmm , 8 pages and the thread hasn't spawned a sidetrack into discussions about rubber mallets.

Wood vs synthetic handles, weight of the head, durometer rating of the rubber..... :cool:


You forgot deadblow....

And here I thought we were talking about rawhide mallets.

[blues]

And here I thought we were talking about rawhide mallets.

http://www.missouriwhitetails.com/forums/xmbattach/23042

"Dead-Blow Mallard? What's the world coming to?"

[OlongJohnson]

And here I thought we were talking about rawhide mallets.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdR6MN2jKYs

[Olim9]

Hmmm , 8 pages and the thread hasn't spawned a sidetrack into discussions about rubber mallets.

Wood vs synthetic handles, weight of the head, durometer rating of the rubber..... :cool:

And for the nerds who still think the VP9 chokes on water; all variations of mallets, wet and dry.

[Greg]

http://www.missouriwhitetails.com/forums/xmbattach/23042

"Dead-Blow Mallard? What's the world coming to?"

Anatidaephobia sufferers can take comfort in that photo.

[GJM]

While you comedians carry on like this is GD, I am busy shooting my PPQ/Q5 pistols daily. :)

This would be funny if it was entitled "VP9," but it hurts more when it is your favorite shooting platform.

[StraitR]

While you comedians carry on like this is GD, I am busy shooting my PPQ/Q5 pistols daily. :)

This would be funny if it was entitled "VP9," but it hurts more when it is your favorite shooting platform.


So much truth here. The Walther mallet thread dies an early death via jokes and memes, but the HK thread went 16 pages and got locked because it caused excessive amounts of butthurt and cardiac infarctions.

Keep the Walther dream alive George!!!

ETA: Before anyone flips their wig and passes out about my HK comment, my daily driver is a 9mm compact 1911, and I wouldn't dare hit it with a mallet because I'm quite sure something undesirable would happen. Frankly, I'm getting curious how many pistol designs would fall to Das Mallet at this point. Maybe we start a new sticky next to the 2k challenge. lol

[spinmove_]

So much truth here. The Walther mallet thread dies an early death via jokes and memes, but the HK thread went 16 pages and got locked because it caused excessive amounts of butthurt and cardiac infarctions.

Keep the Walther dream alive George!!!

ETA: Before anyone flips their wig and passes out about my HK comment, my daily driver is a 9mm compact 1911, and I wouldn't dare hit it with a mallet because I'm quite sure something undesirable would happen. Frankly, I'm getting curious how many pistol designs would fall to Das Mallet at this point. Maybe we start a new sticky next to the 2k challenge. lol

Wait, you're serious about a whack to your 1911 screwing something up?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[blues]

While you comedians carry on like this is GD, I am busy shooting my PPQ/Q5 pistols daily. :)

This would be funny if it was entitled "VP9," but it hurts more when it is your favorite shooting platform.

Well, at least the thread has provided a bit of insight into the mallety malady.

[StraitR]

Wait, you're serious about a whack to your 1911 screwing something up?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy


While I don't want to stray too far off topic here, yeah, I can see a sharp whack on the bottom of the grip (MSH) making the sear hop the hammer hook. Could even compress the MSH spring if sharp enough and possible shear the sear nose. I'm not saying it would AD, might get caught by half-cock notch, but it would at the very least be a dead trigger at that point if it went unnoticed. Honestly, who knows. And then the whole "1911" generalization thing comes in to play, unlike a VP9 or PPQ where one manufacturer is making one model with X amount of production variation.

2017 could possibly go down as the year PF members lost their marbles whacking guns with mallets. :D

[spinmove_]

While I don't want to stray too far off topic here, yeah, I can see a sharp whack on the bottom of the grip (MSH) making the sear hop the hammer hook. Could even compress the MSH spring if sharp enough and possible shear the sear nose. I'm not saying it would AD, might get caught by half-cock notch, but it would at the very least be a dead trigger at that point if it went unnoticed. Honestly, who knows. And then the whole "1911" generalization thing comes in to play, unlike a VP9 or PPQ where one manufacturer is making one model with X amount of production variation.

2017 could possibly go down as the year PF members lost their marbles whacking guns with mallets. :D

Could be the next YouTube Torture test video sensation!


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[StraitR]

LOL. I can see that. "Will it Whack?' ;)

[Hot Sauce]

While you comedians carry on like this is GD, I am busy shooting my PPQ/Q5 pistols daily. :)

This would be funny if it was entitled "VP9," but it hurts more when it is your favorite shooting platform.I wish I could shoot my pistols daily. But on a comedian's salary? Fuggedaboutit!

[GJM]

I just tested a bunch of my firearms with thoughtful use of the mallet, and this what I found:

1) NIB Glock 17, and the rear sight moved right in dovetail, and now it shoots straight.

2) S&W N frame, and the adjustable rear sight fell off and factory lock moved to the "locked" position.

3) VP9, and it appeared to look more susceptable to sand and mud.

4) Beretta PX4 Compact, and Ernest Langdon got a thrill up his leg, and 86 more people posted in that thread.

4) M&P9, and the barrel seemed to seat better, similar to what is it, the fifth or sixth fix to accuracy by Apex.

5) the CZ P10-C and it became even more sexy.

6) the Beretta 1301, all the shotshells fell out, and that Adam guy promised a fix next week.

7) my Benelli M2, and oddly just my shoulder hurt.

8) my Wilson single stack 9mm, actually I was afraid to hit it hard, because it cost so much.

9) my PPQ, but I just called it good without checking the striker, as I like it so much.

10) my USP, and not a damn thing happened, other than it looked more like something SeanM would carry.

[StraitR]

^^^^ post of the year.

[LockedBreech]

That's some quality funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doc_Glock]

While you comedians carry on like this is GD, I am busy shooting my PPQ/Q5 pistols daily. :)

This would be funny if it was entitled "VP9," but it hurts more when it is your favorite shooting platform.

224 rounds through this poor abused pistol today. Runs like a sewing machine. Just don't drop it!

[Doc_Glock]

I compared the P99 to the PPQ tonight and the little lever that allows the striker to drop on impact is also present in the P99, where it functions to decock the striker.

The PPQ does not have a second "DA" hook on the trigger bar, nor the wider striker tab to allow said hook to catch the striker.

You could say dropping the PPQ on its rear is a piss poor way of decocking it.

I am personally finding the P99 a bit more attractive right from a functional standpoint. From a shooting standpoint I shoot the PPQ better.

Should have taken photos but didn't. I can update later if there is interest.

[LockedBreech]

What about my PPS M1? Does it use the same striker system?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LockedBreech]

It does not. The PPS uses a partially tensioned striker design.

Niiiiceeee


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GJM]

It does not. The PPS uses a partially tensioned striker design.

Although apparently there are one or more reports of a PPS allegedly firing when dropped.

[GJM]

Yes, I was just saying it's not the same as the PPQ.


Just trying to keep straight on the possibilities for failure. Seems like partially tensioned is less likely to drop the striker and end up with a dead trigger, but just as dependent as the fully tensioned designs on the firing pin safety?

[schüler]

I compared the P99 to the PPQ tonight and the little lever that allows the striker to drop on impact is also present in the P99, where it functions to decock the striker.

The PPQ does not have a second "DA" hook on the trigger bar, nor the wider striker tab to allow said hook to catch the striker.

You could say dropping the PPQ on its rear is a piss poor way of decocking it.

I am personally finding the P99 a bit more attractive right from a functional standpoint. From a shooting standpoint I shoot the PPQ better.

Should have taken photos but didn't. I can update later if there is interest.

Please do post pics, Little Bunny Foo Foo.
Picking up the field guns, boppin' 'em on the slide

[Doc_Glock]

I grabbed and marked a couple photos. The system on the P99 is pretty interesting as it has completely separate striker catches for the DA and SA components. The PPQ is simpler and eliminates the DA striker catch and the extra width on the striker nobby or whatever it is called.

PPQ is 1400 into 2k challenge.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/950da7516513fb00729c1ed0d4baccc7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/5b741fab4b75a11dc38e923304d01118.jpg

The decocker pushes through the slide to actuate the lever I demonstrated in the first video and decock the pistol.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/53bbff01ad50849563b33a51300fa1e8.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/cabe9e993bb83de189d47e4d50c7fa90.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

I just tested a bunch of my firearms with thoughtful use of the mallet, and this what I found:

1) NIB Glock 17, and the rear sight moved right in dovetail, and now it shoots straight.

2) S&W N frame, and the adjustable rear sight fell off and factory lock moved to the "locked" position.

3) VP9, and it appeared to look more susceptable to sand and mud.

4) Beretta PX4 Compact, and Ernest Langdon got a thrill up his leg, and 86 more people posted in that thread.

4) M&P9, and the barrel seemed to seat better, similar to what is it, the fifth or sixth fix to accuracy by Apex.

5) the CZ P10-C and it became even more sexy.

6) the Beretta 1301, all the shotshells fell out, and that Adam guy promised a fix next week.

7) my Benelli M2, and oddly just my shoulder hurt.

8) my Wilson single stack 9mm, actually I was afraid to hit it hard, because it cost so much.

9) my PPQ, but I just called it good without checking the striker, as I like it so much.

10) my USP, and not a damn thing happened, other than it looked more like something SeanM would carry.

Should have used an older N frame. Last time I hit something with the Hebrew Hammer it left teeth marks in the trigger guard. I guess that dude was not named Mallet, so it was an unfair test. With the 1926 3 Rd Models and 38/44's....the mallet breaks. I now have a reason to start carrying this....Mallet proof for the real aficionados.

[Tom Duffy]

LOL. I can see that. "Will it Whack?' ;)

What a bunch of wackers! :)

[SilentSc0rch]

This is a very interesting finding, and I was able to replicate it with my PPQ. I like to look at it this way: this is essentially equal to any other stoppage in that remedial action will immediately cure it. From a practical standpoint, and I know this is just personal experience and not a large sample size, I've had to perform remedial action more frequently on my G19 than I have on my PPQ, and the Glock was never dropped. Your mileage probably will vary, but that's my point of view.

PS: I'd be lying if I said I'm not slightly more inclined to try a P10c now.

[BenM2Tac]

Although apparently there are one or more reports of a PPS allegedly firing when dropped.

That would've been mine although i'm sure there's more

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

That would've been mine although i'm sure there's more

I have read of at least a couple over at Walther Forum, was sad to see it since I just picked up PPS M2 recently... before the rebate I might add so selling it is currently a give away proposition.

[Hot Sauce]

I have read of at least a couple over at Walther Forum, was sad to see it since I just picked up PPS M2 recently... before the rebate I might add so selling it is currently a give away proposition.This is disappointing to hear. What feature does it currently lack that would actually make it drop safe? Is Walther aware of the problem?

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

This is disappointing to hear. What feature does it currently lack that would actually make it drop safe? Is Walther aware of the problem?

Honestly I do not know if they are aware, but I have noted a trend of theirs recently towards lowered quality. Case in point, PPX was a turd that was discontinued... only to be resold as the Creed with a face lift. The idea here is to make as cheap a pistol as possible, with a two piece MIM feed ramp... I don't get the warm and fuzzies hearing things like this. Not to mention the CCP having drop fire issues on safety no less, with a publicized recall to fix this issue. It just seems they are not the same company these days.

I strongly believe at this point these drop safety issues are just a fact of life with the striker fired pistols of today, especially the fully tensioned variety though I am not convinced partial tension on the striker will not set many varieties of primers off. I think the fact that many large companies have been having these problems over a long enough period of time (FNS, 320, PPS, Glock... that I have read of) points to it is just inevitable despite their best intentions to make them totally safe. I don't think they can really test them significantly enough to where they can drop them in every conceivable fashion to be certain it can't happen.

For this reason I have gone back to carry DA/SA H&K pistols with 12 lb. first pulls after decocking. Not that everybody should do this, it just makes me feel better... peace of mind means alot to me these days... given I don't get much of it these days with two little munchkins running around the house. I think anything that is not fully decocked has the potential given the right amount of force directed in the right directions. Nothing made by man is infallible, it's just some designs tend to work better than others... just make sure whatever you carry get's checked regularly for proper function by qualified person.

[Hambo]

Should have used an older N frame. Last time I hit something with the Hebrew Hammer it left teeth marks in the trigger guard.

That is solid test methodology. Other proven designs include Colt SAAs, 2nd and 3rd Gen large frame S&W autos, 1911s, and large, metal flashlights.

[Velo Dog]

I'm old enough to still be obsessing over the Beretta 92 external trigger bar accidental discharge and the Jet Li one-handed disarm/slide removal issues.


https://youtu.be/adnXzutxWcQ?t=26s

[Hot Sauce]

I don't have an M2, but the first gen PPS is a straight up copy of the Glock "Safe Action"® system -- same so-called trigger safety, same firing pin safety, same "drop safety". The PPS has the same trigger bar cruciform and trigger housing "shelf" arrangement as the Glock. Assuming the M2 has the same mechanism, I'd say it's not lacking any feature to make it drop safe, but rather that the guns that did fire when dropped had either out of spec, broken, or missing parts. I'd give the so-called "trigger safety" (which is really a crucial part in achieving a drop safe design -- just like with the Glock) and it's spring a close look -- I'd bet money that spring is either out of spec, worn out, broken, or missing. I haven't taken my PPS trigger apart enough to know what type of spring is in there (Walther lists the trigger and trigger bar as a complete assembly -- just like Glock), so I have no idea if it's a steel coil spring or a polymer leaf spring or something else. In any case, springs wear out and need to be checked/replaced on a regular basis -- especially on a gun that is fired (dry or live) a bunch.

There's an old post on the the Walther forum where someone is complaining of his trigger safety not springing back (http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/pps/15121-tech-question-pps-trigger-assembly.html). That would be a problem and would compromise the drop safety of the pistol.


This wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer has had a problem with a "trigger safety" not functioning correctly. S&W had a recall on the Shield in 2013 for a similar issue. Of course, the fact that everyone treats/markets trigger safeties as a device to prevent inadvertent trigger pulls and not as an integral part of the overall drop safety design of the pistol is partially to blame for people not paying much attention to it, or worse asking about and contemplating removing it because it's "irritating" (http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/pps/28831-irritating-pps-trigger-safety.html).

The misunderstanding of the purpose of a tabbed "trigger safety" is so pervasive I actually now a guy (combat vet who works in the training industry) that was seriously considering making a tabbed trigger safety for the AR as a way to prevent inadvertent trigger activation. Um, yeah, that's not how that works, m'kay.This is exactly why I asked. I was thinking to myself, the tab acts as part of the drop safety, wouldn't that have to be malfunctioning in addition to everything else. Scary thoughts abound.

[Hot Sauce]

Honestly I do not know if they are aware, but I have noted a trend of theirs recently towards lowered quality. Case in point, PPX was a turd that was discontinued... only to be resold as the Creed with a face lift. The idea here is to make as cheap a pistol as possible, with a two piece MIM feed ramp... I don't get the warm and fuzzies hearing things like this. Not to mention the CCP having drop fire issues on safety no less, with a publicized recall to fix this issue. It just seems they are not the same company these days.As far as being the same company, doesn't Umarex make some of the guns? At least the CCP. I don't necessarily think the PPX/Creed was so much a let's make lower quality stuff decision. Once even a "better" Glock can't overtake a Glock, they seemed to have decided to undercut the market price wise.

[txdpd]

Should have used an older N frame. Last time I hit something with the Hebrew Hammer it left teeth marks in the trigger guard. I guess that dude was not named Mallet, so it was an unfair test. With the 1926 3 Rd Models and 38/44's....the mallet breaks. I now have a reason to start carrying this....Mallet proof for the real aficionados.

I knew an officer that would always tell others not bitch slap hooks with a revolver because it would bend the yoke. Just hit them the other way and you'll be fine.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

As far as being the same company, doesn't Umarex make some of the guns? At least the CCP. I don't necessarily think the PPX/Creed was so much a let's make lower quality stuff decision. Once even a "better" Glock can't overtake a Glock, they seemed to have decided to undercut the market price wise.

From what I've seen the PPX was entirely a how much can we reduce cost on production product, lots of people had problems with the barrels from what I've seen on Walther forum... some didn't but either way they were replaced. Umarex did make the CCP for certain, along with the .22's...

[willie]

Once I went o the doctor and with reference to my finger, I said it hurts when I do this, and he said then don't do that. ;)

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Frankly, I'm getting curious how many pistol designs would fall to Das Mallet at this point. Maybe we start a new sticky next to the 2k challenge. lol

I honestly think that most hammer guns of modern quality build/design would do quite well, many modern striker designs I expect would have problems somehow.