Differences Between Gold Dot 9mm 124 gr +P and God Dot 9m 124 gr +P Short Barrel

[JonInWA]

I usually carry the Gold Dot 9mm 124 gr +P in my 4.9" barreled Beretta 92D; recently inadvertently got box of the Short Barrel version of this cartridge. While previously its been stated on the forum that there is no difference between the two, I do not believe that this is currently the case;

-The Short Barrel has a posted muzzle velocity of 1150 fps, with 364 ft lbs of energy;

-The "standard" 124gr +P has a posted muzzle velocity of 1220 fps, with 410 ft lbs of energy;

-Speer has re-designed the hollow point on the Short Barrel variant with a wider, shallower profile.

When I spoke to a Speer tech rep about using the Short Barrel round in my 4.9" Beretta, he stated that overpenetration would likely result.

Guess I just acquired some expensive practice ammunition, at least as far as my Beretta is concerned...

Best, Jon

[Mike C]

I usually carry the Gold Dot 9mm 124 gr +P in my 4.9" barreled Beretta 92D; recently inadvertently got box of the Short Barrel version of this cartridge. While previously its been stated on the forum that there is no difference between the two, I do not believe that this is currently the case;

-The Short Barrel has a posted muzzle velocity of 1150 fps, with 364 ft lbs of energy;

-The "standard" 124gr +P has a posted muzzle velocity of 1220 fps, with 410 ft lbs of energy;

-Speer has re-designed the hollow point on the Short Barrel variant with a wider, shallower profile.

When I spoke to a Speer tech rep about using the Short Barrel round in my 4.9" Beretta, he stated that overpenetration would likely result.

Guess I just acquired some expensive practice ammunition, at least as far as my Beretta is concerned...

Best, Jon

I sent you a PM.

[JonInWA]

Got it, thanks-much appreciated, Mike. Reply sent back 'atcha.

Best, Jon

[Trooper224]

As an additional bit of info: I carry the Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dot in my 92s. Out of curiosity I tested that load and the standard pressure 124 grain GD with a chronograph. Out of the 4.9" barrel on the 92, the +P load chrono'd at 1220 fps average, the standard pressure load averaged out at 1205 fps. If I can't find the +P load in stock I don't have any worries about the standard pressure load.

[blues]

As an additional bit of info: I carry the Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dot in my 92s. Out of curiosity I tested that load and the standard pressure 124 grain GD with a chronograph. Out of the 4.9" barrel on the 92, the +P load chrono'd at 1220 fps average, the standard pressure load averaged out at 1205 fps. If I can't find the +P load in stock I don't have any worries about the standard pressure load.

Thanks for that info, Trooper. I've got the standard GD 124gr as well as Federal HST in 124gr +P. Good to know there's not much drop off in performance with the standard pressure rounds...and I remember Doc Roberts saying good things about them as well in the recent past.

[Trooper224]

Thanks for that info, Trooper. I've got the standard GD 124gr as well as Federal HST in 124gr +P. Good to know there's not much drop off in performance with the standard pressure rounds...and I remember Doc Roberts saying good things about them as well in the recent past.

For a modern service pistol the 92 has a longer than average barrel. Most current service models are closer to four than five. I'm sure that benefits the 92 in this particular case, but I can't confirm the same level of performance in shorter barreled pistols.

[Velo Dog]

The difference in velocity is due to different length test barrels. The short barrel load's listed velocity is from a shorter 3.5" test barrel.

There are bullet differences between short barrel and regular Gold Dot loads in the other calibers, but the 9mm hollow points appear to be identical - at least that used to be the case. Ammo manufactures have been known to tweak their ammo from time to time, however, with little public awareness.

[blues]

For a modern service pistol the 92 has a longer than average barrel. Most current service models are closer to four than five. I'm sure that benefits the 92 in this particular case, but I can't confirm the same level of performance in shorter barreled pistols.

I had 'em in the G17 for a while (which is about .4" shorter than your 92) but I'm currently carrying HST 147gr standard in all my Glocks regardless of barrel length.

[JonInWA]

The difference in velocity is due to different length test barrels. The short barrel load's listed velocity is from a shorter 3.5" test barrel.

There are bullet differences between short barrel and regular Gold Dot loads in the other calibers, but the 9mm hollow points appear to be identical - at least that used to be the case. Ammo manufactures have been known to tweak their ammo from time to time, however, with little public awareness.

That was my (hopeful) initial assumption, too. It also seemed to be the premise that DocGKR was operating under when he previously asserted that there was no difference between the two, but it seems subsequently thet Speer has made some changes-according to them to the bullet's hollowpoint profile, and, while they didn't specifically state it, I'm surmising to the powder as well, either in formulation or in amount. On the Speer site they do specify that the Short Barrel cartridges are "lower kicking."

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

One of the Speer Tech Reps just emailed me, specifying that using the Short Barrel ammunition in my longer-barreled (4.9") Beretta 92 would pick up velocity, over expand the bullet, and cause over-penetration.

While he didn't specifically say so, that sounds to me like both the powder (either in formulation and/or amount) and the bullet have been modified in the 9mm Short Barrel cartridges.

Best, Jon

[Lester Polfus]

I'm confused.

Wouldn't over-expansion cause LESS penetration?

[JonInWA]

I'm confused.

Wouldn't over-expansion cause LESS penetration?

Beats me-I agree, that would make sense, but I'm just repeating what the Speer rep emailed to me. Verbally, I'd heard the same over-penetration issue with the Short Barrel stuff in my Beretta 92 4.9" barrel when I spoke with one of their reps on the phone earlier.

Best, Jon

[Velo Dog]

If this recently uploaded video is any indication of current Gold Dot performance, a little extra velocity may not be a bad thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__-7qFr7Ra0

[JonInWA]

That test seems very reasonably approached. While the number of rounds fired to come to their conclusions would probably come under scrutiny, I think from a common-sense standpoint they're likely correct.

I wonder if the Speer rep that responded by email to me accidentally used "over-expanded" when he meant "under-expanded," which instinctively, as Lester pointed out, makes more sense.

Best, Jon

[Lester Polfus]

That test seems very reasonably approached. While the number of rounds fired to come to their conclusions would probably come under scrutiny, I think from a common-sense standpoint they're likely correct.

I wonder if the Speer rep that responded by email to me accidentally used "over-expanded" when he meant "under-expanded," which instinctively, as Lester pointed out, makes more sense.

Best, Jon

Well, if it over expanded to the point the petals sheared off, that would also make it over penetrate too...

Dunno.

Weird.

[JonInWA]

I've re-queried Speer on this seeming contradiction specifically, and will report their response. I'm a bit puzzled too (but I won't be using the Short Box fodder in my Beretta 92 for anything but practice...).

Best, Jon

[Sensei]

I'm confused.

Wouldn't over-expansion cause LESS penetration?


Well, if it over expanded to the point the petals sheared off, that would also make it over penetrate too...

Dunno.

Weird.


I've re-queried Speer on this seeming contradiction specifically, and will report their response. I'm a bit puzzled too (but I won't be using the Short Box fodder in my Beretta 92 for anything but practice...).

Best, Jon

When driven faster than designed, Gold Dots are well known for "over-expanding" to the point that the petals fold back against the bullets base to the point that it actually reduces the mean frontal diameter. This results in the bullet overpenetrating.

A prime example is when the .40 caliber Gold Dots are used in full power 10mm loads. You often get rapid shallow expansion with the petals folded against the base resulting in a .40-.50 caliber projectile that penetrates well past 20 inches. Ironically, the same bullet pushed at more moderate 40SW velocities results in ideal, controlled expansion over the first 10" of tissue / get out to a mean diameter of .60+ caliber, and ideal penetration between 12-20". Not to mention there is significantly less recoil, flash, and wear on the gun...

[Lester Polfus]

When driven faster than designed, Gold Dots are well known for "over-expanding" to the point that the petals fold back against the bullets base to the point that it actually reduces the mean frontal diameter. This results in the bullet overpenetrating.

A prime example is when the .40 caliber Gold Dots are used in full power 10mm loads. You often get rapid shallow expansion with the petals folded against the base resulting in a .40-.50 caliber projectile that penetrates well past 20 inches. Ironically, the same bullet pushed at more moderate 40SW velocities results in ideal, controlled expansion over the first 10" of tissue / get out to a mean diameter of .60+ caliber, and ideal penetration between 12-20". Not to mention there is significantly less recoil, flash, and wear on the gun...

That all makes sense. I always thought the nuclear 10mm Gold Dot loads were dumb. I'd be happy if Speer came out with a 10mm Gold Dot load that was in the 40ish power range. Then I could carry that back and forth from the back country, and put the rhino roller hard casts in at the trail head.

Thanks.

[Sensei]

That all makes sense. I always thought the nuclear 10mm Gold Dot loads were dumb. I'd be happy if Speer came out with a 10mm Gold Dot load that was in the 40ish power range. Then I could carry that back and forth from the back country, and put the rhino roller hard casts in at the trail head.

Thanks.

Your welcome.

I'd be interested in a 200 grain 10mm Gold Dot load that could be pushed at 1000-1100 fps to expand to .55-.60 cal and penetrate the deep side of 16-22" after common intermediate barriers. That would be a 10mm round worth the extra size over 9mm/40SW for an outdoorsman who ventures beyond the lower 48; a B+ round for 2 and 4-legged beasts while not having quite the recoil of a full-powered Norma load.

For backpacking in Alaska I'd prefer deeper penetration than the typical 14" that you get out of a 180 grain GDHP going 950 fps.

[Chuck Whitlock]

That all makes sense. I always thought the nuclear 10mm Gold Dot loads were dumb. I'd be happy if Speer came out with a 10mm Gold Dot load that was in the 40ish power range. Then I could carry that back and forth from the back country, and put the rhino roller hard casts in at the trail head.

Thanks.

Hornady's 10mm Critical Duty may be of interest to you:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/10mm-auto-175-gr-flexlock

[JonInWA]

Hornady's 10mm Critical Duty may be of interest to you:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/10mm-auto-175-gr-flexlock

Interestingly (well, to me), on a parallel plane, my alternative co-choice Beretta 92 9mm DocGKR vetted cartridge is Hornady's 135 gr +P Critical Duty.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

Your welcome.

I'd be interested in a 200 grain 10mm Gold Dot load that could be pushed at 1000-1100 fps to expand to .55-.60 cal and penetrate the deep side of 16-22" after common intermediate barriers. That would be a 10mm round worth the extra size over 9mm/40SW for an outdoorsman who ventures beyond the lower 48; a B+ round for 2 and 4-legged beasts while not having quite the recoil of a full-powered Norma load.

For backpacking in Alaska I'd prefer deeper penetration than the typical 14" that you get out of a 180 grain GDHP going 950 fps.

In .40, for AK field use, I would go with the Underwood load with the Lehigh extreme penetrator bullet, 140 grains at 1,200 fps. It is a purpose built penetrating load that feeds reliably in a wide range of pistols we have tried it in. I am not confident .40 JHP will get through the skull of a brown bear.

[Lester Polfus]

Your welcome.

I'd be interested in a 200 grain 10mm Gold Dot load that could be pushed at 1000-1100 fps to expand to .55-.60 cal and penetrate the deep side of 16-22" after common intermediate barriers. That would be a 10mm round worth the extra size over 9mm/40SW for an outdoorsman who ventures beyond the lower 48; a B+ round for 2 and 4-legged beasts while not having quite the recoil of a full-powered Norma load.

For backpacking in Alaska I'd prefer deeper penetration than the typical 14" that you get out of a 180 grain GDHP going 950 fps.

Exactly. That's sort of what I was hoping we'd get with Federal's Trophy Bonded load: a bullet designed with 10mm in mind, going for the deep side of penetration, but that wasn't what we got.

The 200 grain XTP is a decent hunting bullet and will get you that kind of penetration and expansion, but the technology is long in the tooth and won't get you the intermediate barrier penetration.

I'm guessing the market just isn't there for a modern, 200 grain, barrier blind dual purpose 10mm bullet. The round has enjoyed a renaissance of late, but its largely among people who are doing goofy shit like carrying it for their CCW loaded with 135 grain bullets going at crazy speeds because "energy dump."


Hornady's 10mm Critical Duty may be of interest to you:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/10mm-auto-175-gr-flexlock

The Glock 20 mags are currently stuffed with 175 Grain Critical duty for general purpose carry.

[Lester Polfus]

Interestingly (well, to me), on a parallel plane, my alternative co-choice Beretta 92 9mm DocGKR vetted cartridge is Hornady's 135 gr +P Critical Duty.

Best, Jon

That's my alternative 9mm choice as well. The primary is 147 grain HST, but I like knowing my gun will run with more than one type of carry ammo, in case of supply problems.

[SJC3081]

In 2006 I chrongraphed my NYPD issued Speer GD 124+P from my 3913. Elevation was about 2000ft, five shots Average 1168 ES 66.7

[JonInWA]

Speer again got back to me on a very timely basis (kudos to them); what they said was,

"Jon, the longer the barrel the faster the barrel till it reaches the maximum powder burn, then you will lose velocity. So the answer is that you will get get really similar velocities in both rounds, out of the same barrel lengths. You just get proper expansion in the short barrel (My note-I think here he's referring specifically to the Short Barrel 124 gr +P cartridge-Jon) when shot out of a short barrel weapon, You can get over penetration from under and over expansion. If you under expand the bullet doesn't open fully and you get over expansion (My note-I think here what he actually meant to say was "over penetration," not "over expansion"-Jon) If you over expand the bullet will lay back over itself and give you a smaller diameter, which leads to over penetration."

I hope my parenthetical comments are correct, and not misinterpreting or muddling what the Speer Rep was saying.

The Speer Rep's comments essentially track and validate what Sensei laid out in post #17 earlier. (Kudos to you, Sensei).

It also seems to establish that there are in fact some crucial differences between the Speer 124gr Gold Dot +P and the Speer Short Barrel 124 gr Gold Dot +P, and that you should judiciously apply your choice and selection process in line with your specific gun's barrel length for maximum effective results, especially for defensive use.

Best, Jon

[Lucus McCain]

The difference in velocity is due to different length test barrels. The short barrel load's listed velocity is from a shorter 3.5" test barrel.

There are bullet differences between short barrel and regular Gold Dot loads in the other calibers, but the 9mm hollow points appear to be identical - at least that used to be the case. Ammo manufactures have been known to tweak their ammo from time to time, however, with little public awareness.

This is pretty much the response I got from Speer when I inquired about it.

[UNK]

Hornady's 10mm Critical Duty may be of interest to you:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/10mm-auto-175-gr-flexlock

I realize it is a bit off subject but the Critical Duty in 9mm is the only round tested that has ftf in my 320.