38,000 rounds through 1911s

[jetfire]

I'm an obsessive record keeper when it comes to shooting. Since I started taking this seriously, I've logged almost every round I've fired since 2008, with the only un-counted ones being guns I've shot at media events or during periods of active duty.

While crunching my numbers, I realized that at a steel challenge match this past weekend, I went over 38,000 rounds on 1911s alone. I broke out 1911s ever since I started focusing my blog almost entirely on 1911 Reviews (http://www.gunnuts.net/1911-reviews/). I don't claim to be an expert like Hilton Yam or Jason Burton or any of the serious 1911 gunsmiths out there, but I'll go over 50k on the platform this year for sure, and I have learned a few things. For example,

1. "1911" is meaningless. When someone says "1911s are finicky and unreliable" it's the most meaningless statement someone can make. I had a Sig 1911 chambered in .357 Sig that was finicky and unreliable. I have a 600 dollar Rock Island 9mm 1911 that has fired over 3,700 rounds without a single failure of any type. I've had Colts that were dead-ass reliable tanks and Colts that had trouble feeding JHP. I had a different Sig 1911 in .45 ACP that worked so long as you used Wilson Combat magazines, but wouldn't work with anything else.

2. "1911s are more accurate than other guns."

What other guns? My Rock Island that runs like a raped ape is also less accurate than a bone stock Gen 4 Glock 34. Costs about the same too. My Kimber Team Match II in 9mm is more accurate than any other gun I own, and is one of the three most accurate guns I've ever shot.

3. 1911s are easy to maintain right up until they're not.

Most problems with a 1911 can be fixed by a moderately competent armorer. I'm not sure where people got the idea that these guns were hard to work on, because they're not. The problem with working on the platform is that there's no standardization of part sizes across the industry. An aftermarket part that drops in and fits perfectly in a Colt may require fitting in a Kimber or a Springfield.

4. 9mm 1911s are better than .45s

Sorry not sorry, they're like easy mode for shooting and are just more awesome in every way.

5. Sig has pretty much figured out how to make the external extractor work. At least on the .45 ACP guns.

These are just observations typed up by slightly intoxicated me as I review the last 10 years of my career and wonder what I've done with my life other than get kind of okay at shooting and be able to detail strip a 1911.

[MGW]

So what have you learned about what it takes to shoot a 1911 well?

What kind of maintenance schedule do you follow and what kinds of things do you check when you do general cleaning on a 1911?

[qwiksdraw]

I have to agree. Well done.

[jetfire]

So what have you learned about what it takes to shoot a 1911 well?

What kind of maintenance schedule do you follow and what kinds of things do you check when you do general cleaning on a 1911?

Pretty much the same as it takes to shoot any gun well. I will say because it's heavy and has a light trigger it's more forgiving of errors in trigger pull than other platforms.

For maintenance I usually clean and lubricate every 1000 rounds, swap recoil springs at 3000, and all other springs at 10k. On guns I'm going to be shooting a lot I'll swap out extractors for the Wilson bulletproof extractor. For mags I always start with Wilson ETM, and then if a gun doesn't work with those then I'll start hunting for other mags.

[Robinson]

Those observations make sense to me.

I owned three S&W 1911s quite a few years ago -- they seem to have figured out the external extractor too.

[45dotACP]

Near as I've heard, the EGW replacement part for the Sig 1911 extractor has turned a decent factory gun into a screamingly good gun. If the factory part breaks or doesn't work, chances are the EGW part will fix it.

Can't argue with much else there. Although I expected there to be a shot across the bow of all the "forged vs cast" 1911 debate.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[KG]

4. 9mm 1911s are better than .45s

Which 9mms have you tested and which do you prefer? Any thoughts on ramped vs. non-ramped barrel for a 9mm?

[jetfire]

Which 9mms have you tested and which do you prefer? Any thoughts on ramped vs. non-ramped barrel for a 9mm?

Lessee, a Rock Island that defies all logic, a 4 inch Kimber, a Dan Wesson Commnader that was amazing, a full size Taurus that was garbage, and right now I'm on another Kimber, this time a full size competition style fun. It's pretty great. About half the guns have had ramped barrels and the other half haven't. Hasn't really mattered for reliability.

[LittleLebowski]

To be fair, the external extractor makes sense in every way but aesthetics.

[NETim]

Heck, I can keep a 1911 running well. Of course, starting with a gun with good parts in it makes it easier.

[Peally]

The problem with working on the platform is that there's no standardization of part sizes across the industry. An aftermarket part that drops in and fits perfectly in a Colt may require fitting in a Kimber or a Springfield.

1911 problems across the board, in a nutshell. While the design is completely sound, it'd be the the same situation if you had every true expert and true retard manufacturer on the planet building their version of a Glock 17.

[MSparks909]

1911 problems across the board, in a nutshell. While the design is completely sound, it'd be the the same situation if you had every true expert and true retard manufacturer on the planet building their version of a Glock 17.

...you mean like what's happening now with all the different slide, barrel and now a few frame manufacturers for the Glock design?

[LittleLebowski]

...you mean like what's happening now with all the different slide, barrel and now a few frame manufacturers for the Glock design?

Not really. You still have a standard that is supported from the original designer.

[Peally]

...you mean like what's happening now with all the different slide, barrel and now a few frame manufacturers for the Glock design?

Close, extend that to internal parts over different manufacturers with their own designs and everything else over 100 years and you have the same recipe for WTF potential.

I have a feeling if the average Joe wasn't a fan of basement gunsmithing followed afterwards by internet complaining the 1911 would have a different and more positive stereotype behind it. In 2117 Glocks may be a nightmare situation if a boob buying a Taurus G17 mixes it with some G17 HiPoint parts and does a little "polishing" work with the ol' space dremel.

[LockedBreech]

Close, extend that to internal parts over different manufacturers with their own designs and everything else over 100 years and you have the same recipe for WTF potential.

I have a feeling if the average Joe wasn't a fan of basement gunsmithing followed afterwards by internet complaining the 1911 would have a different and more positive stereotype behind it. In 2117 Glocks may be a nightmare situation if a boob buying a Taurus G17 mixes it with some G17 HiPoint parts and does a little "polishing" work with the ol' space dremel.

"You moron, you used a Glock G-X Type Plasma Capacitor in a Beretta-Sauer Interphase Pistol? Gee, wonder why it didn't work."

[JHC]

Close, extend that to internal parts over different manufacturers with their own designs and everything else over 100 years and you have the same recipe for WTF potential.

I have a feeling if the average Joe wasn't a fan of basement gunsmithing followed afterwards by internet complaining the 1911 would have a different and more positive stereotype behind it. In 2117 Glocks may be a nightmare situation if a boob buying a Taurus G17 mixes it with some G17 HiPoint parts and does a little "polishing" work with the ol' space dremel.

We see some of that already with the proliferation of aftermarket Glock parts that sometimes trigger all sorts of issues fixed with return to OEM. Some. Not all.

[MSparks909]

We see some of that already with the proliferation of aftermarket Glock parts that sometimes trigger all sorts of issues fixed with return to OEM. Some. Not all.

That was kind of my point but I digress. Side note and mini hijack, but what I would really like to see is somebody bring to market an enhanced reliability Glock slide with an external extractor that utilizes a coil spring and roll pin, ala HK, Walther, Beretta, etc. I think that could be a big seller if it was engineered well (i.e. used a current manufacturer's extractor and extractor spring; easy to find spare parts) and ran reliably.

[Lester Polfus]

That was kind of my point but I digress. Side note and mini hijack, but what I would really like to see is somebody bring to market an enhanced reliability Glock slide with an external extractor that utilizes a coil spring and roll pin, ala HK, Walther, Beretta, etc. I think that could be a big seller if it was engineered well (i.e. used a current manufacturer's extractor and extractor spring; easy to find spare parts) and ran reliably.

I'm curious what kind of problem we'd be trying to solve there. Glocks, while perhaps not quite "perfection" tend to be pretty reliable. The teeting issues with the Gen 4 seem to have sorted themselves out, at least that's my impression with the one's I've played with here lately.

And if that wasn't true, at the point where I have to replace a guns slide to make it reliable is the point where I just buy something else that works out of the box.

[Drang]

3. 1911s are easy to maintain right up until they're not.

Most problems with a 1911 can be fixed by a moderately competent armorer. I'm not sure where people got the idea that these guns were hard to work on, because they're not.
Because pins and stuff!


The problem with working on the platform is that there's no standardization of part sizes across the industry.

There was... until 1945 and Uncle Sam got out of the 1911 building business.
I guess you could say it lasted until Colt started deviating from the GI spec, which was... MK IV? Gold Cup?

[MSparks909]

I'm curious what kind of problem we'd be trying to solve there. Glocks, while perhaps not quite "perfection" tend to be pretty reliable. The teeting issues with the Gen 4 seem to have sorted themselves out, at least that's my impression with the one's I've played with here lately.

And if that wasn't true, at the point where I have to replace a guns slide to make it reliable is the point where I just buy something else that works out of the box.

All but one of my 9mm Glocks gave me BTF at least 1 or 2 out of every 100 rounds. It's a substandard extractor design, bar none. But it's cheap and simple to make that's why it's sticking around. Both my Colt 9mm and Wilson 9mm 1911s have been 100% reliable (I expect the Wilson to be due to its price point but still) with zero BTF or poor ejection qualities. They just run.

[farscott]

Because pins and stuff!



There was... until 1945 and Uncle Sam got out of the 1911 building business.
I guess you could say it lasted until Colt started deviating from the GI spec, which was... MK IV? Gold Cup?

Colt deviated from the original spec when they chambered 1911-pattern pistols in everything from .22 LR to .38 Super. My experience with 1911-pattern pistols is that the farther one deviates from the original design in terms of barrel length and cartridge chambering, the more issues arise. For example, 9x19 1911-pattern pistols are fun and really quite accurate, but every one of mine is ammo sensitive and need different magazines. Of course, some of them have ramped barrels (STI, David Sams) and some of then have frame ramps (two Colts).

Short 1911-pattern guns can be finicky. Some run while others do not, and finding what is the root cause can be frustrating. I have had Colt Officer's ACP models that run well and others than choke at least once per magazine with the same ammo and same magazines as the "good pistol".

From the late 1990s until about 2011, I pretty much shot and carried nothing but 1911s. Not sure on my total round count, but I have more than one pistol with more than 25,000 documented rounds through it. I shot Bullseye with 1911-pattern pistols, and those pistols are capable of delivering sub-three-inch groups at fifty yards -- but not in my hands. I have broken extractor hooks, broken magazine catches, cracked a slide, lost sights, damaged alloy frames (including a Robar-smithed Commander), etc. because everything breaks if you use it. It is a lot easier to fit any one of the corresponding Glock parts. I never had to lap a new slide to a Glock frame.

[Jared]

I'm curious what kind of problem we'd be trying to solve there. Glocks, while perhaps not quite "perfection" tend to be pretty reliable. The teeting issues with the Gen 4 seem to have sorted themselves out, at least that's my impression with the one's I've played with here lately.

And if that wasn't true, at the point where I have to replace a guns slide to make it reliable is the point where I just buy something else that works out of the box.

I've got a G19 MOS that I bought new earlier this year that's not exactly giving me the warm and fuzzies with its extraction/ejection pattern. So far they are all getting out and not stovepiping, but time will tell. I've had cases eject left, right, straight back and forward so far with this gun. Contrast that with the Beretta APX I've been running, where I'm pretty sure a properly placed 5 gallon bucket could catch 85% of the brass or so. Whatever is going on with the Glock design the last few years, I don't think its all the way ironed out.

[Drang]

Colt deviated from the original spec when they chambered 1911-pattern pistols in everything from .22 LR to .38 Super. My experience with 1911-pattern pistols is that the farther one deviates from the original design in terms of barrel length and cartridge chambering, the more issues arise.
No argument here. One class I attended everyone said they were running a 1911, but I said "1911-ish", and when they asked me what I meant, I said a Combat Commander isn't really a 1911, since the barrel's too short, the bushing's different, and I had real sights put on.

[StraitR]

1. "1911" is meaningless. When someone says "1911s are finicky and unreliable" it's the most meaningless statement someone can make. I had a Sig 1911 chambered in .357 Sig that was finicky and unreliable. I have a 600 dollar Rock Island 9mm 1911 that has fired over 3,700 rounds without a single failure of any type. I've had Colts that were dead-ass reliable tanks and Colts that had trouble feeding JHP. I had a different Sig 1911 in .45 ACP that worked so long as you used Wilson Combat magazines, but wouldn't work with anything else.


And this is why I try to stay out of 1911 discussions. Everything is presumptive, because as you say, "1911" is meaningless. Yet, round and round people go about "my 1911 this" and "my 1911 that", for better or worse, it all means nothing.

[Tango]

Exactly right, when someone says 1911, you really have to listen. What I love about them is that when you find "yours" it is really hard to compare another platform to it.

[JHC]

Exactly right, when someone says 1911, you really have to listen. What I love about them is that when you find "yours" it is really hard to compare another platform to it.

"yours". Interesting. Here I think I've become smitten by the heft balance and handling of the Operator frame. I didn't see that coming.

[jetfire]

To be fair, the external extractor makes sense in every way but aesthetics.

Heresy feels pretty good when the gun works correctly.

Which reminds of the biggest problem with 1911s - 1911 enthusiasts.

[Drang]

Which reminds of the biggest problem with 1911s - 1911 enthusiasts.
18338
Granted you'd get in a lot of fights with gun store commandos.
Even worse would be the gun store commandos who think they're on your side...

[JonInWA]

We have 4 1911s (or, to be more specific, 4 1911-pattern pistols); A 1945-production, Mt Rainier Ordinance Depot refurbished Remington Rand, a SIG-Sauer "Second Generation" GSR, a Nighthawk Custom Talon II, and a Colt stainless Series 70 Repro.

In my empirical experience, the only ones that I think would pass the 2K test out-of-the-box would be the Remington Rand and the Colt Series 70 Repro (In all honesty, I think I only have some 500 rounds on that particular 1911). Both the SIG and the Nighthawk would now likely successfully pass the 2K test, but not originally. Both required some additional ministrations (2 separate trips to the factory for the GSR for different issues, one initial and one developing over time) and consistent recoil spring early wear (replacement needed like clockwork every 800 rds) and magazine tuning for the Nighthawk Custom (somewhat self-induced, as I'm using Check-Mate magazines, not the OEM ones (which might have been just fine, but I done think I've ever used them other than for basic functionality testing)

The Colt Series 70 early on gave me some brass-to-face on ejection, but that sorted itself out quickly, with no ministrations needed. I've not heavily used the Remington Rand, but it's probably the best rack-grade 1911 I've ever personally experienced. The only thing I've done to it was to have replaced the OEM recoil spring with a Wolff 16# standard one as preventive maintenance.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

This thread prompted me to put some rounds through the Series 70...darn thing wants to shoot like a Gold Cup, with impeccable reliability. Yeah, the edges and hammer are a bit sharp, but it's a great 1911. And the hammer sharpness Ill inexpensively address simply by getting a holster that suitably shields my side from the hammer spur.

Best, Jon

[StraitR]

This thread prompted me to put some rounds through the Series 70...darn thing wants to shoot like a Gold Cup, with impeccable reliability. Yeah, the edges and hammer are a bit sharp, but it's a great 1911. And the hammer sharpness Ill inexpensively address simply by getting a holster that suitably shields my side from the hammer spur.

Best, Jon

Jon, I have to ask. Have you taken a mallet to that Series 70?



:p

[JonInWA]

Heathen! Prepare to be malletized thyself! Best, Jon

[Robinson]

Jon, I have to ask. Have you taken a mallet to that Series 70?



:p

It's S80s that ship with a mallet in the box, not the S70. I thought everyone knew that.

[JonInWA]

1911s have occasionally been used as CQB mallets themselves, an attribute not likely to be ascribed to most polymer-framed pistols....

Best, Jon

[StraitR]

1911s have occasionally been used as CQB mallets themselves, an attribute not likely to be ascribed to most polymer-framed pistols....

Best, Jon

Very true Jon, although some might not care to agree.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bc/52/88/bc5288bf4aa89cbbeaff6c4130193066.gif

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

1911 problems across the board, in a nutshell. While the design is completely sound, it'd be the the same situation if you had every true expert and true retard manufacturer on the planet building their version of a Glock 17.

I believe this is already reality to a certain degree...


I've got a G19 MOS that I bought new earlier this year that's not exactly giving me the warm and fuzzies with its extraction/ejection pattern. So far they are all getting out and not stovepiping, but time will tell. I've had cases eject left, right, straight back and forward so far with this gun. Contrast that with the Beretta APX I've been running, where I'm pretty sure a properly placed 5 gallon bucket could catch 85% of the brass or so. Whatever is going on with the Glock design the last few years, I don't think its all the way ironed out.

Well, I believe this issue (which I've had personally on my only two Glock's I've owned, which got sold years back) is attributed to both changing over to MIM extractor without a redesign (like Sig). I had the exact same problem with both my old G17 (Gen 3 & Gen 4), it was annoying to say the least... sent them both in and both were sent back saying 'tested, within spec' with the same problem despite them upgrading the ejector on the Gen 4 and putting another extractor in the Gen 3. Both of them still did BTF, but it may have been impoved a bit after they 'fixed' them.