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Shellback
01-05-2012, 01:44 PM
Situational awareness is paramount for everyone and especially for police officers dealing with situations where there is an obviously hostile crowd. Don't get so absorbed in the task at hand that you forget about what's going on around you. I'm not posting this to be critical of the officer's actions but as a reminder to be ever vigilant concerning your surroundings.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgCz3hR6Ggc&feature=player_embedded

Personally, I think he should've kicked him harder.

texag
01-05-2012, 02:06 PM
Hope the officers are all fine. It's a shame the original arrestee apparently got away with some cuffs.

WDW
01-05-2012, 02:22 PM
Hear the stupid <edit> in the background saying, "we gots that shit on tape main" People like that are a festering sore in society. They live only to cause chaos in an attempt to achieve some meager gain. The guy who attacked is lucky he didn't .40 caliber hole in his chest.

TGS
01-05-2012, 02:46 PM
That guy's partner was completely useless. Thankfully he had the dude with glasses there that thought to actually do something.

About the whole video thing, I had a buddy that used to be a cop with a funny tactic. When he would pull someone over and the driver would start recording him on a cell phone, he would pull out his cell phone and start recording them. Talk about making stupid irate people feel dumb.

Shellback
01-05-2012, 03:37 PM
Hear the stupid fuck in the background saying, "we gots that shit on tape main" People like that are a festering sore in society. They live only to cause chaos in an attempt to achieve some meager gain.

I'm glad they got it on tape too. It proves the officers were doing their job properly, not beating on the suspect, and in general looks like they were treating him well in terms of arresting him. That video would hopefully exonerate any type of BS type of lawsuit the bad guys might later try to press on the officers.

I still think he should've kicked him harder.

secondstoryguy
01-05-2012, 03:45 PM
That officer on the ground needs to to a BJJ class or two and learn something about ground fighting.

KeeFus
01-05-2012, 04:04 PM
Should have sprayed the bastard with the camera too. He'd walk away then come back...screw his asthma. That's just typical. Notice that the first criminal they were dealing with is long gone. The sneaky guy that bum-rushed them...well, I hope he got what he deserved.

SouthNarc
01-05-2012, 05:23 PM
'Nutha day inna' hood brah!

LittleLebowski
01-05-2012, 05:55 PM
Anyone know the back story?

Shellback
01-05-2012, 06:06 PM
Anyone know the back story?

Story here... http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-01-04/news/bal-video-shows-man-attack-city-officer-during-other-mans-arrest-20120103_1_baltimore-police-officer-city-officer-officers-struggle and here... http://www.wbaltv.com/r/30134744/detail.html

Kyle Reese
01-05-2012, 07:30 PM
In Balmer. I'm shocked!

Shellback
01-05-2012, 09:22 PM
New link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFFsWF3FoLI

ToddG
01-06-2012, 08:34 AM
Please keep the obscenities in reserve for more appropriate use, gentlemen.

BLACK
02-08-2012, 05:54 PM
That officer on the ground needs to to a BJJ class or two and learn something about ground fighting.
BJJ will not train you to survive while on the ground.
Last time I "rolled on the mat" there were no accomplices, dummy knives and other tools being introduced into the mix and I definately wasnt learning to disable the brain or break the body and deny it function.
This is tandem with the OP in that BJJ will actually take away your situational awareness in many cases becuase of the emphasis on executing a specific technique on 1 single subject while on the ground. When you find yourself on the deck the best training for "ground fighting" is the stuff that teaches to to get the **** off the ground....all while rendering the threat non-functional.
In my experience BJJ can actually get you into serious trouble in the "street" and I know of 1 balckbelt in BJJ that actually had the upper hand on a threat in the street with a well executed rear naked...until his buddy figured he didnt want to see his "homie" go purple and pass out so he politely took a bottle to the BJJ mans head... busted him up good enough for him to relocate his training to the local Bujinkan association.
BJJ is a combat sport based on rules and a competitive nature... it is not safe for street use.

My civvy LSHD opinion aint worth much but there it is.

secondstoryguy
02-08-2012, 06:31 PM
While I agree that full-rules tournament style BJJ often doesn't play out well on the street, the many reps of getting in dominant positions and out of bad ones that BJJ teaches is invaluable. A good majority of BJJ schools(the good ones) incorporate more street/practical MMA style workouts into their lesson plan which teach striking, no Gi workouts(just shorts/t-shirt), and some even incorporate weapons(stick grappling/knives). As far as going up against multiple opponents staying up, getting into closer quarters/bottleneck opponents, and preferably hauling ass is key. Going for a rear-naked choke while the subjects friends are watching is a bad tactical move, as your buddy probably learned, as are most submissions when dealing with multiple opponents IMHO.

BLACK
02-10-2012, 03:02 PM
While I agree that full-rules tournament style BJJ often doesn't play out well on the street, the many reps of getting in dominant positions and out of bad ones that BJJ teaches is invaluable. A good majority of BJJ schools(the good ones) incorporate more street/practical MMA style workouts into their lesson plan which teach striking, no Gi workouts(just shorts/t-shirt), and some even incorporate weapons(stick grappling/knives). As far as going up against multiple opponents staying up, getting into closer quarters/bottleneck opponents, and preferably hauling ass is key. Going for a rear-naked choke while the subjects friends are watching is a bad tactical move, as your buddy probably learned, as are most submissions when dealing with multiple opponents IMHO.

Your words are valid.

Just a heads up...it is not my intention to step on anyones toes or diminish anyones capacity...I am simply speaking from my own experience so of cours YMMV.

Rant on

If we are talking about being outside the social realm of combat sports and leaning towards survival AKA "martial arts vs. martialism" then my humble opinion is this:
In my experience(being assaulted in the streets by gangs on multiple occassions) BJJ has not been a SA friendly combative. I am of the strong opinion(came from some scars) that it is not a "combative" at all once you introduce it Into a life threatenting struggle. I have personally taken a full mount to a guy who ambushed me with a blindsided haymaker but was met with a strike to his carotid artery and he dumped himself flat... I proceeded to mount him and rain the pain on the back of his head... seconds after I fired the first punch thats when I received a good ole mickeys 40oz to my head which changed the course of the evening from me once having the upper hand to being beaten silly by at least 10 guys. I barely escaped serious injury/death from multiple BFT that night.

I remember every situation where my BJJ/ground fighting prowess paid off and it was always in a socailly combative environment in which the non verbal agreement that we did not wish to kill each other was already established and set in stone. I can remember everytime it failed me as well and it was always in a fight for personal preservation.
Fighting to gain a better postition on the ground(which is actually getting to your feet) does not take the mystical wand of a "ground fighting" style or oddles of uber saavy techniques. It takes intent, a target and an injury...all which can be applied while seemingly helpless.
A full mount loses its potential once his testicles are smashed and grabbed...all of a sudden the heavy beast is reduced to a featherlight kitten.
In my book...there is always some bigger, stronger and faster so it doesnt matter how much mat time I put in, if I play by the ROE contained in social conflict I am setting myself up for potential catastrophe if I ever meet up with someone who is actually bent on killing me or someone else.
With that, I am a firm believer in the "train hard fight easy" matra...so I pride myself in fixating only on what will bring me success in a full blown fight or flight situation...I have found that violence is my only freind and in doing so it has rewired over 20 years of circuitry.
Training to target the anatomy is essential along with the understanding of the reactions that accessing a vital area yields which pretty much comes inherently. A human is no good in a fight or flight scenario if they are boogged down with trying to access stored technical data on their organinc hard drive...no good in the sense that they most likely will freeze becuase fine motor skills become a thing of the past and a myriad of techniques wont be applicable most often.
The problem is not the potential full mount and a ground and pound inbound or the fact he has 3 buddies waiting to pick up the pieces...the problem is he can think, move and therefore actively solve problems....Take away their ability to think/problem solve(BRAIN) and/or the bodies ability to move and the problem is solved.
It is often as simple as picking up a brick and bashing it over their head, screw the rules.
You cannot actively secure your six if you are in a duel with a douchebag...just drive your truck right over them and move to the next threat.
I guess for me I look at it like...killers wont quit and the definately wont submit so why waste my time on something that asks them to do just that??


Rant off



SALUS,
BLACK

Noleshooter
02-10-2012, 03:35 PM
Black-

IMHO that story doesn't highlight a failure in style (BJJ in this case) but a failure of your decision making. If a person gives up situational awareness to "rain the pain," it doesn't matter what style he trains. The way I see it BJJ served you very well in getting into a good position to defend yourself. you chose to get revenge (Can't say I blame you) instead of getting away or scanning the surroundings. That choice opened you up to the other guys buddies, not the style.

I hear lots of arguments against BJJ because it's a bad idea to fight off your back on the street and what if he has friends and on and on. Just because a person knows how to fight off their back very well doesn't mean that is the only way they can fight. A good BJJ professor will teach position over submissions to new students first. I didn't learn submissions for quite some time when I started BJJ; we had to learn sweeps, escapes and transitions first. After we could flow from position to position and developed our game we began learning submissions.

Had this officer executed one of many simple escapes he would have been MUCH better off. Even a basic level of BJJ competency would have allowed him to gain a dominant position quickly the way that guy was laying on him. Fighting multiple attackers from the bottom is a helluva lot harder than fighting multiple attackers from a dominant position.


I guess what I'm saying is BJJ is a great self defense style if you recognize the weaknesses, it just depends on how you use it. If only for the escapes, sweeps and transitions it is worth investing at least 6 months of solid groundwork. I don't think many people would argue pulling guard is ever a good tactic in a street fight, no matter how many people are involved. Moreover, not many styles are going to prepare someone for taking on 4 motivated attackers with weapons without a serious devotion to training as a lifestyle.

GOP
02-10-2012, 04:15 PM
Hilarious that guys are saying "BJJ doesn't work on the streets." I have done almost all H2H training systems and have trained with the best instructors in those systems; MMA/BJJ pros would absolutely dominate most other top instructors in other systems. I've rolled with HIGH LEVEL BJJ Black belts (as in, won the Mundials and Abu Dhabi). I promise you, accessing a weapon would be absolutely impossible against guys at that level. I could go into a long diatribe, but there really is no need to go into more detail than that. It's laughable.

4 on 1 scenario? Well, despite what the Krav Maga/Systema dudes would have you believe (and I did Systema a long time), 4 on 1 is NEVER a good option, ever. Rolling on the ground or standing up, you better have a weapon, weapon skills, a savior, and a will.

BaiHu
02-10-2012, 06:09 PM
This is similar to the kid who got 'lured' down the alley for a 7 on 1 beat down. Situational awareness failed these 2 cops. First, I'm not LEO and I don't know procedure, but if you've ever read Southnarc's posts or studied a defensive art for at least 2-5 years, you'll notice 2 glaring issues that I'm sure Southnarc will either correct or confirm my following statements.

1. Both officers eyes were down on the perp and weren't scanning enough in the middle of a crowded busy corner filled with agitated people. As a side note, I have a buddy who used to own a used car lot in Newark in the crosshairs of dealer central. The few times I went down there, we never faced the same way. He trusted me to not get myopic on him changing spark plugs in my car. I was his rear guard and when people came by, I alerted him and he'd turn and say 'hello' if he knew the people-most he did.

2. The offender 'moved like a shark' (I believe those are SN's words). Even in the crappy narrow camera angle you can see him circle around the cops at :03 and :06 seconds and then he makes a bee line for the cop at :25 seconds and the partner NEVER looks up.

Poor awareness and teamwork, IMO. Perhaps the guy who was not attacked was the greener of the two.

secondstoryguy
02-13-2012, 02:11 PM
Here's a good example of how BJJ can be used on the street. For those who've never done BJJ there's a lot more stuff going on here than you think, SN just makes it look easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeX1PyKKuYk