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Suvorov
01-05-2012, 02:19 AM
I have been considering the idea of becoming a firearms instructor for a couple of years now. I know that there are many on this forum that instruct and I would like to hear their opinions/advice about it and getting the required certifications.

One of the major things other than work and family commitments (more on that later) that has kept me from starting this is that I just don't know if I'm good enough. In the grand scheme of things, I am a competent shot with handguns and rifles and am an solid intermediate shooter as far as the FAST goes. I received some solid training in the Army, am a FLETC course graduate, have attended a handful of training courses, and have dabbled in instruction with friends and family. I also have an extensive background giving instruction with thousands of hours as a flight instructor as well as military topics. On top of it all, I do enjoy teaching. BUT, I'm no Todd Green and the High Speed Low Drag train has LONG left the station. In the presence of most on this forum, I'm lucky to be considered a dilettante.

What has given me the desire as of late to think seriously about instructing is the lack and abysmal quality of instructors I have met locally. A good friend of mine took an NRA personal protection class from one of my ranges "instructors" and was less than impressed both by the content of the course and the professionalism of the teacher. I may not not be qualified to carry Kyle Lamb's spit cup, but I'm a hell of a lot better than a lot of the local jokers that are passing as firearms instructors. With the ever increasing numbers of new gun owners out there, some of who are smart enough to seek training, I would hope to be able to provide a basic level of real world oriented competence to these people and maybe even serve as a feeder to the real instructors out there.

So my basic questions for the instructors out there are:

1) What certifications are needed? I assume an NRA instructor certification would be the bare minimum? What about state certifications (I know the Kalifornia DOJ has some process for the ability to issue Handgun Safety Certificates)? I qualify to take NRA Law Enforcement classes, But I'm NO COP so I would assume those classes would be a waste of time?

2) Is liability insurance needed? What happens if you instruct someone who is a bad egg? (in ROTC, we had a cadet who murdered someone in an altercation). I assume that ITAR regulations would apply to instructing foreign students? Do any of you perform background checks?

3) What about becoming a regional instructor for one of the big names? I am hoping to take and pass Paul Howe's Tactical Pistol Instructor Class this spring (planned to do it last year but a newborn squashed that idea). I know Larry Vickers also certifies instructors, what all is involved in associating yourself with a big name?

My goals for doing all this are pretty much to provide quality instruction to new civilian shooters (or folks that just want to learn how to hit more than the berm) and in doing so - do my part for nurturing the 2nd Amendment, to expand my journey in the shooting martial arts and become a better shooter, and maybe to just make enough money doing it to pay for this whole adventure.

I truly appreciate any advice you all have, even if it is "DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME" (which is pretty much what I would tell anyone dreaming of entering my profession).

Al T.
01-05-2012, 08:24 AM
Can't speak to your specifics, but go for it. The more you teach, the more you learn.

Todd made some specific recommendations to me awhile back about teaching. IMHO, that's made a lot of difference to me.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1589-Working-with-a-stubborn-student-question

jlw
01-05-2012, 08:42 AM
Anybody can setup shop and call themselves an instructor. There really is no formal set of standards that you have to meet. Certain states may require certain things to be able to teach that state's licensing course, but other than that...

On Trainers and Training (http://chiefweems.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/73/)

CCT125US
01-05-2012, 09:00 AM
In my journey I choose to get NRA certified first. This is a name and recognition that most people with a pulse have heard of. My process took 3 days, a hotel room for two nights and two boxes of ammo for the shooting portion. You do not have to be a good shot or some ninja to get NRA creds. Non shooters have rarely heard of the good gun schools or instructors. Keep in mind that to some simply having your CHL is some higher level of understanding...... which it certainly is not. Sometimes this thinking also takes places in the mind of the CHL holder as well. Bottom line is get started teaching somehow and then you really start learning yourself.

Lon
01-05-2012, 09:37 AM
Go for it.

I would go ahead with getting the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor certification under your belt. In most gun owners eyes, that gives you legitimacy. Those in the know won't be as impressed as the masses, but it's a starting point. When Ohio got its CCW law passed in 2004, the number of NRA BP instructors increased exponentially. Maybe 1 in 5 should really be teaching people how to shoot. Strive to be the one. The fact that you are a member on this board is a good sign that you are on the right track.

Just be advised that if you go the NRA route, and teach NRA classes, you are stuck with their curriculum. They revamped the book (finally) so its better than it used to be, but it is not anything near what is considered even medium speed around here.

Once you get the NRA BP cert, I'd look at getting some of the other certs from the NRA. Or go with one of the other places you mentioned. I'm certified through the NRA plus the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy, but the Tom Givens instructor course is on my short list of classes I want to take in the near future. That course is more for my personal development as an instructor than anything else. Most of the shooting general public have no idea who Tom Givens is, so they are more impressed by the NRA and OPOTA certs than someone who would be familiar with Tom Givens.

The most important thing to understand is, as my wife is fond of telling me "know your role".

What do you see your role as being? Getting new shooters relatively proficient with their pistols? Getting them certified for their CHL? Preparing them for a tour overseas? This is where is see a lot of instructors loose their way, IMHO. Stick with what you are qualified to teach. I see this in OH quite a bit when it comes to teaching "legal" topics in CCW classes. The instructors have no formal legal training and/or use of force training and teach these topics, many times making shit up as they go along. Or they have a less than ideal grasp of what the law requires.

Insurance is available through the NRA, especially if you teach those classes. Many venues will require the instructor to carry insurance if teaching at their facility. If you can get tied in with a gun shop who will hire you as there instructor, they'll probably have a policy that covers you and them.

You're probably not gonna make a bunch of money doing this, but you may make enough to cover a class or two a year.

Have fun.

jlw
01-05-2012, 10:01 AM
I am an NRA Certified Instructor. This is not intended to be a slight of NRA Instructor certs, but don't put more stock into them than they are really worth. There really isn't a huge level of proficiency required to get Basic Pistol or Personal Protection In The Home, and they really don't truly qualify a person to really teach the pistol as it should be taught. They are good safety courses, but they really shouldn't be looked at anything more than that.

MikeyC
01-05-2012, 10:03 AM
The two main advantages to being an NRA instructor are name recognition (Hey it's the NRA!), and the fact that the cert is so easy to get. My cert class only required a skill level of 70% on a paper plate at 10 yards. Remem ber also that the NRA basic pistol class is BASIC in the purest sense of the term. It appears to be intended for the strictest novice who has never handled a gun before. If your goal is to do anything more than get new shooters on and off the line without getting anyone hurt you'll certainly want to expand beyond the NRA.

Lon
01-05-2012, 10:12 AM
I am an NRA Certified Instructor. This is not intended to be a slight of NRA Instructor certs, but don't put more stock into them than they are really worth. There really isn't a huge level of proficiency required to get Basic Pistol or Personal Protection In The Home, and they really don't truly qualify a person to really teach the pistol as it should be taught. They are good safety courses, but they really shouldn't be looked at anything more than that.


I agree completely. But in the eyes of the masses, the NRA cert gives legitimacy. If you can hear thunder and see lightning, you can pass the NRA BP instructor class. It's unfortunate that for the masses, the NRA BP instructor certificate is like some magical thing that means the holder of the cert is a wonderful instructor. Sadly, it isn't the case, nor is the fact that someone has a POST type "instructor" certification. From my experiences in Ohio, most of the "instructors" are nothing more than Range Safety Officers or Qualification officers. They can run a relatively safe range and know how to run their guys through the state mandated qualification courses, but trying to "teach" something is beyond their capabilities. Diagnose someone's shooting problems? WAY beyond their capabilities.

joshs
01-05-2012, 10:23 AM
Being NRA certified also allows you to purchase inexpensive liability insurance through http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/instructors.htm?utm_source=firearminstructorinsura nce.com&utm_medium=firearminstructorinsurance.com&utm_campaign=firearminstructorinsurance.com.

Ray Keith
01-05-2012, 01:05 PM
but the Tom Givens instructor course is on my short list of classes I want to take in the near future. That course is more for my personal development as an instructor than anything else. Most of the shooting general public have no idea who Tom Givens is, so they are more impressed by the NRA and OPOTA certs than someone who would be familiar with Tom Givens.


Do this. You will definitely leave his 3 day basic instructor and 2 day advanced instructor classes a thoroughly tested and improved shooter. Not everyone passes them and some don't make it past the first 10 minutes on the range (follow instructions). Basic instructor was the most stressful shooting experience I have had, advanced seemed easier even though I'm sure the tests and times were more difficult. In basic you will get an assistant instructor to work with you or kick you across the line if it's possible. Thanks Gunny!

Suvorov
01-05-2012, 01:09 PM
Thanks for the great input guys!

It looks like step one will be NRA certifications. I'll agree with you all in that the NRA course has a lot to be desired and many of the instructors leave a lot more to be desired - which is a lot of why I am wanting to do this.

Lon, as far as "knowing my role" or "staying in my lane", you make an excellent point. Given my background I would feel qualified to provide instruction for -
1) New shooters/gun owners looking for a good safety course.
2) The above looking to learn the basics of self defense with a firearm and physical security.
3) Old shooters who are honest with themselves and know they need to learn solid fundamentals.
4) Soldiers/Marines who realize their service provided marksmanship training is lacking and want to increase their survivability prior to deployment (I feel very comfortable teaching both M9 and M16/M4 systems). There are limits here as I have only had one instance where I had to retrieve a loaded firearm and it was over by the time I got there, so I have no actual combat experience but can certainly teach them how to run the M9 or M16 better than a non HSLD soldier will likely be taught.
5) Pre-LEO individuals looking to become proficient with a pistol prior to attending the academy.

I don't have a law degree, but have had use of force training and would feel comfortable teaching the basics of the legal issues involved with firearms such as "reasonable belief" and explaining the local laws. This is an area that I think is most lacking in many of the "instructors" I have talked with as some of them are almost criminally ignorant of the laws here in Kalifornia.

Oddly enough, my wife seems to be on board with this whole thing so that is a big help. She even seems OK with me heading off to CSAT this year when the mention of it last year resulted in laser beams shooting from her eyes. Lots of footwork still ahead though but keep any advice coming.

One question that hasn't been touched on yet - do you guys screen your students?

NickA
01-05-2012, 01:17 PM
Do this. You will definitely leave his 3 day basic instructor and 2 day advanced instructor classes a thoroughly tested and improved shooter. Not everyone passes them and some don't make it past the first 10 minutes on the range (follow instructions). Basic instructor was the most stressful shooting experience I have had, advanced seemed easier even though I'm sure the tests and times were more difficult. In basic you will get an assistant instructor to work with you or kick you across the line if it's possible. Thanks Gunny!

What skill level / teaching experience would be recommended before taking an instructor course like that? I have no plans to be an instructor professionally, but have thought it would be a great learning experience, and wondered if assisting with a class or two a year wouldn't teach me as much as taking a class.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

jlw
01-05-2012, 01:21 PM
I agree completely. But in the eyes of the masses, the NRA cert gives legitimacy. If you can hear thunder and see lightning, you can pass the NRA BP instructor class. It's unfortunate that for the masses, the NRA BP instructor certificate is like some magical thing that means the holder of the cert is a wonderful instructor. Sadly, it isn't the case, nor is the fact that someone has a POST type "instructor" certification. From my experiences in Ohio, most of the "instructors" are nothing more than Range Safety Officers or Qualification officers. They can run a relatively safe range and know how to run their guys through the state mandated qualification courses, but trying to "teach" something is beyond their capabilities. Diagnose someone's shooting problems? WAY beyond their capabilities.


I can't speak for the other states, but my POST Firearms Instructor course was an 80 hour course. The first thing they did on the first morning was take us to the range and have us shoot a qualifying course. If you didn't shoot a 90%, you went home right then. We had to successfully pass a teaching evaluation, a written test, and a shooting skills test to graduate. The current standard is that you have to have also completed the 80 hour Instructor Development course prior to even going to the FI course. That's 160 hours of instructor training.

The shooting portion of the FI class included a block on shotguns and a night fire session. There several scored drills per day.

Sadly, "most" peace officers only go to the range for qualifications. We never do any instruction when running quals courses. It was simply shoot the course for score and leave. We have open range days for training.

Ray Keith
01-05-2012, 01:46 PM
What skill level / teaching experience would be recommended before taking an instructor course like that? I have no plans to be an instructor professionally, but have thought it would be a great learning experience, and wondered if assisting with a class or two a year wouldn't teach me as much as taking a class.


I'm not sure how to quantify this as far as Tom's class goes. There are at least two others here that I know of, probably more who might weigh in. My experience, as I'm sure everyone's is, was controlled by the skills I brought there. To the plus side I had had quite a bit of training from Tom and knew how things ran and what he was like. I'm just an average shooter and at times worse (see my AFHF result). I did a lot more skill building than I'm sure many did in my class.

The people who did not pass out of my classes fell into a couple of categories. One was a downright bizarre individual with other issues. I would suggest following instructions, seriously. The 25 yard shooting is something that is tough I think because I don't think people spend much time on it, particularly under time pressure. Lower probability shots under increasing time pressure got some.

Some don't shoot prone, kneeling etc. Some never had to shoot quickly it seems. You have to speak in front of a group, that freaks some people out.

A lot of people struggled with the gun handling more than the shooting itself. They couldn't meet time requirements because they didn't do the draw, reload, malfunction clearance quickly or they did that part quickly but then didn't slow down to get the hits afterwards. Eventually most ramped up, but you (or at least I) couldn't be leisurely doing reloads etc... I definitely felt pressure/stress to do well, other people probably won't feel pressure because of skill etc.. I felt much less stress and pressure in the advanced class.

I benefited from good luck and had a great partner and also a great assistant instructor, both were very very helpful. In my opinion you would benefit greatly, provided you shoot well (I know that isn't helpful) can handle some constructive criticism, set aside ego and have a good attitude. It probably shouldn't be the first formal training you've had regardless of skill level the shooting demands aren't basic. I think its fair to say you don't go to this class to learn to shoot well, you have to already know how, you will leave a much better shooter.

I'm sure that muddies the water further... :confused:

Tom Givens
01-05-2012, 06:40 PM
Ray is being too modest. He did well in his instructor course and is actually quite skilled.

Here is the actual description of our instructor course. It is intended to take a good shooter and make him both a better shooter and able to pass that skill on to others.

Rangemaster Three-Day Firearms Instructor Development & Certification Course

This is an intensive full three day (24 hours total) course that teaches candidates:
modern adult learning theory;
preparation, delivery, and documentation of training;
development of training aids, including power points and others;
coaching methodologies, diagnosing and correcting shooters’ errors;
modern, effective gunhandling techniques, designed to work under stress;
proper handling/operation of a variety of handgun types; and
effective, efficient combat marksmanship techniques.

The course time is divided about equally between classroom sessions and range firing, and each student will fire approximately 1,000 rounds of ammunition. Students will act as coaches for other students, and each will be coached extensively in turn. Students also receive a 170+ page training manual, which is a valuable information and reference resource. To graduate from this course, students must pass a shooting qualification, pass a written examination, and conduct a brief presentation in the classroom on an assigned topic. This course satisfies the training requirements for the Tennessee Department of Safety to become a State Certified Handgun Instructor and the Oklahoma CLEET requirements to become an OK SDA Instructor.

For this course, students will need:
A serviceable sidearm,revolver or semiauto, of at least .38 Special or 9X19mm caliber ( .38 Special, 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 S&W, .45 Auto);
A serviceable uniform duty or concealed carry holster, worn on the belt, of leather or kydex construction, with a covered trigger guard;
At least three magazines or speedloaders (more is better);
1,000 rounds of full power ammunition for the sidearm.

Suvorov
01-05-2012, 06:53 PM
Tom, would it be possible to get a NRA certification during one of your courses?

Tom Givens
01-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Suvorov,

No. That is a completely separate issue.

Al T.
01-05-2012, 07:48 PM
Suvorov,

The NRA Instructors course is very simple. In an Army context, the NRA course is learning to teach new recruits how to polish their boots. Better than nothing, but not what a good teacher will aspire to be.

Suvorov
01-05-2012, 08:25 PM
Suvorov,

The NRA Instructors course is very simple. In an Army context, the NRA course is learning to teach new recruits how to polish their boots. Better than nothing, but not what a good teacher will aspire to be.

Yeah, based on what I have seen, I would agree. I took the NRA courses as a student almost 20 years ago. It seems that these courses are almost boxes that have to be checked to get on the road to instruction which is why it would be nice to find a top instructor that could sign me off for the NRA courses while taking a more advanced course. I guess they are too different to do that though. Does seem like those will be my first steps though....

As far as you instructors go, what percentage of your students are just very basic "NRA" course students and how many of them advance to more comprehensive training?

Ray Keith
01-05-2012, 11:04 PM
Yeah, based on what I have seen, I would agree. I took the NRA courses as a student almost 20 years ago. It seems that these courses are almost boxes that have to be checked to get on the road to instruction which is why it would be nice to find a top instructor that could sign me off for the NRA courses while taking a more advanced course. I guess they are too different to do that though. Does seem like those will be my first steps though....

As far as you instructors go, what percentage of your students are just very basic "NRA" course students and how many of them advance to more comprehensive training?

I got a lot out of my NRA Cert instruction, I think it is poo-poo'd a bit much. There is good stuff there in teaching methodology, lesson planning, fundamentals. It isn't high speed, it is basic but in my opinion a good foundation, pretty good materials despite the low speed. I think you'll get out of it what you put in it like anything. There are also some decent perks for holding those credentials. Their RSO class is pretty good too.

A lot of people I deal with are really basic or afraid. Basic to the point of "the bullet comes out this end". I think it is valuable to have skills teaching at the very ground floor, and dealing with the mythology and fear they bring with them.

Lon
01-05-2012, 11:27 PM
I can't speak for the other states, but my POST Firearms Instructor course was an 80 hour course. The first thing they did on the first morning was take us to the range and have us shoot a qualifying course. If you didn't shoot a 90%, you went home right then. We had to successfully pass a teaching evaluation, a written test, and a shooting skills test to graduate. The current standard is that you have to have also completed the 80 hour Instructor Development course prior to even going to the FI course. That's 160 hours of instructor training.

The shooting portion of the FI class included a block on shotguns and a night fire session. There several scored drills per day.

Sadly, "most" peace officers only go to the range for qualifications. We never do any instruction when running quals courses. It was simply shoot the course for score and leave. We have open range days for training.


Sadly, this is not the case in OH. For example, when I went through the 40 hour subgun instructor class, we spent over 1 full day discussing and calculating minute of angle. Waisted hundreds of rounds on full mag dumps, spent about 1 full day learning how to take everyone else's weapons apart, and never once discussed diagnosing shooter problems. I could go on and on but I won't.

There is an initial 80 hour course for pistol revolver and shotgun and then an additional instructor theory class that is optional.

jumpthestack
01-06-2012, 02:58 AM
What has given me the desire as of late to think seriously about instructing is the lack and abysmal quality of instructors I have met locally. A good friend of mine took an NRA personal protection class from one of my ranges "instructors" and was less than impressed both by the content of the course and the professionalism of the teacher. I may not not be qualified to carry Kyle Lamb's spit cup, but I'm a hell of a lot better than a lot of the local jokers that are passing as firearms instructors. With the ever increasing numbers of new gun owners out there, some of who are smart enough to seek training, I would hope to be able to provide a basic level of real world oriented competence to these people and maybe even serve as a feeder to the real instructors out there.


Since your location says Bay Area in CA, I just want to make sure you're aware that there actually are a lot of good trainers in the area including many periodically visiting trainers who are nationally known. So the market is fairly crowded.
I have an overview of them here:
http://jumpthestack.blogspot.com/p/san-francisco-bay-area-firearms.html

rsa-otc
01-06-2012, 07:53 AM
I've done the NRA Law Enforcement Handgun/Shotgun instructor course several times as well as S&W Academy's Firearms instructor course.

NRA LEO
This is not a give me. 40 hour course. You have to qualify with both weapons, pass a written test. And while on the range you are broken up into student-coach pairs and are supposed to teach the subject you are working on at the time. In my last class several students were not given certificates. This cert is good for 3 years only. You can renew by taking I believe 28 hours of any firearms related course.

This course is restricted to active Public or Private (Security) officers only. There are some exceptions for retired officers who continue to train folks after retirement.

Cost wise this is a good deal approx $500-$600

S&W Academy
Again not a give me. 80 hour course. You have to qualify with Pistol/revolver & Shotgun. While on the range you are broken up into instructor/couch pairs with the purpose of practicing your instructor skills. You must give a presentation teaching a particular firearms subject (your choice of subject). Written test at the end of the course. Certification good for 3 years renewable by taking their instructor refresher course.

I can't remember if this is restricted to LEO only.

Pricey, last time I looked it was around $1500.

I'm thinking about taking Tom Givens Range Master instructor course seems like a good deal from a respected instructor. Also this would meet the continuing education requirement to keep my NRA certification current.

jlw
01-06-2012, 09:56 AM
Sadly, this is not the case in OH. For example, when I went through the 40 hour subgun instructor class, we spent over 1 full day discussing and calculating minute of angle. Waisted hundreds of rounds on full mag dumps, spent about 1 full day learning how to take everyone else's weapons apart, and never once discussed diagnosing shooter problems. I could go on and on but I won't.

There is an initial 80 hour course for pistol revolver and shotgun and then an additional instructor theory class that is optional.


GA used to allow folks to go through the specialized instructor courses without going through the Instructor Training (IT) for the general instructor certificate. Such people were only allowed to teach the specialty courses, and those classes had to be signed off by someone who had completed IT. That has now changed to the current standard that in order to go to any specialized course you have to be IT certified. I did my FI course in 2004 and taught firearms until they implemented the new rule and deemed all of us under the previous rule as being not worthy. I went through the IT course in 2009. After completing the IT course, a candidate also has to go teach at one of the regional academies and teach a class with the academy director signing off prior to certification.

We have a 40 hour shotgun instructor course that is a very good course.

Suvorov
01-06-2012, 10:10 AM
Since your location says Bay Area in CA, I just want to make sure you're aware that there actually are a lot of good trainers in the area including many periodically visiting trainers who are nationally known. So the market is fairly crowded.
I have an overview of them here:
http://jumpthestack.blogspot.com/p/san-francisco-bay-area-firearms.html


Thanks. Some of the ones you have listed (like Louis Awerbuck, the Magpul Guys, and other top trainers) are not local and only teach a couple of classes a year (if that). It isn't my intention to compete with these guys as that would be a minnow competing with a shark, in fact I would by my intent to serve as a feeder for them and hopefully be able to attend some of their courses as well.

Some of the ones you have listed below that you can not vouch for are the ones that I have met and who I feel are certainly sub par. I work at one of the ranges (it is a member volunteer hour range) and think there is a need for better instructors. Since you are local and seem to know a good deal about the local gun training culture, I'd love to pick your brain more.

This is good info to have. Right now I am just testing the waters and trying to figure out how to go about the whole thing.

gringop
01-06-2012, 08:44 PM
Yeah, based on what I have seen, I would agree. I took the NRA courses as a student almost 20 years ago. It seems that these courses are almost boxes that have to be checked to get on the road to instruction which is why it would be nice to find a top instructor that could sign me off for the NRA courses while taking a more advanced course. I guess they are too different to do that though. Does seem like those will be my first steps though....

As far as you instructors go, what percentage of your students are just very basic "NRA" course students and how many of them advance to more comprehensive training?

The issue with NRA courses is that THEY MUST BE DONE THE NRA WAY. You must use NRA materials and the logistics issues that that entails. You can not teach anything extra. You can not teach anything less. They are very comprehensive and are a good fit for someone who has never shot a firearm (not weapon!) before.

They are deadly boring for anyone with intermediate hunting, plinking, competition or LEO experience. The "personal protection in the home/ outside the home" classes have very outdated TTPs and concepts. All of the non-LEO classes teach to around the 9th grade level.

Most reputable trainers could duplicate and improve on the NRA basic pistol/rifle classes with minimal effort and without the NRA negatives.

In a year of actively teaching NRA classes I have had no students come back for our Into to IDPA, Advanced Pistol Technique or Advanced CHL classes. I see the NRA vs advanced classes as 2 separate markets, complete novice vs. some experience shooting.

I took CSAT Tactical Carbine Instructor a few years ago. Great program and a great instructor in Paul Howe. You will learn a lot in Tactical Pistol Instructor. That being said, I got a bit more out of Tom's class re. how to work with students, communicate and diagnose issues. Both are great instructors, just slightly different styles.

As other have said, get a few NRA certs to have that on your resume. Go to Tom and others to learn how to teach things worth teaching.

Gringop

Jay Cunningham
01-06-2012, 08:55 PM
I think the NRA stuff gets bashed a bit unfairly. The Basic Pistol and PPIH programs are pretty good. I do think the instructor standards should be higher, though.

But I've been labelled as "just an NRA instructor" by some real super-duper high speed meat-eaters in the past, so I'm probably biased. ;-)

I'm hosting Tom in April for his instructor course and I hope to do the CSAT course in 2013. I plan on obtaining additional NRA certs though.

jthhapkido
01-07-2012, 12:19 PM
The issue with NRA courses is that THEY MUST BE DONE THE NRA WAY. You must use NRA materials and the logistics issues that that entails. You can not teach anything extra. You can not teach anything less. They are very comprehensive and are a good fit for someone who has never shot a firearm (not weapon!) before.


Hm. That isn't what we were told.

We were told that if you teach a class advertised as the "NRA Basic Pistol course", that it needs to include all of the material their syllabus lists---but that you can add as much more as you like. More shooting, more dryfire, more practice with different firearms, etc. I just went back and checked to make sure--and that is written and underlined in my notes from the instructor course I took. My wife (also a NRA BP instructor) agrees.

Our Introduction to Handguns course is a NRA Basic Pistol course, plus extra time with firearms, plus a chance to shoot a range of centerfire pistols, plus indoor AirSoft practice, including a short course of USPSA pistol so they can 1) have fun, and 2) demonstrate safety multiple times before going out to the range.

Plus other stuff. (movies showing how a reloading press works, why squibs can happen, clips from local competitions, etc...)

We get a lot of complete newbies for the course, which makes sense, as that is what it is for. I don't really consider it a "shooting" course as much as a "safety and familiarization course" --and I advertise it that way. Great for newbies, shooters who want their spouses to get more information, and people with kids who are now old enough to learn how to safety handle firearms. (I realize many parents teach their own kids, but quite frankly, many shouldn't.)

For newbies, I think the NRA basic course is excellent. Now, if someone wants to jump right from that to CCW/Defensive Tactics/Competition? No, not a great idea. Do I think someone with a NRA Basic Pistol Instructor patch is automatically SEAL team qualified? Not so much. :p

Do I really wish that more shooting instructors knew how to teach? Yes, but I'm biased. (Having been a teacher of college students, high school students, and martial artists for 20 years.) As someone else said, there are some great demonstrators out there who just can't teach well. The NRA instructor course really does have some good points about effective teaching, and tries to make certain that people use them.

Some people really don't want to listen, though. (It does bring to mind the thought that there is a difference between being an expert at a certain skill, and an expert teacher of a certain skill.)

Jay Cunningham
01-07-2012, 01:15 PM
I think the NRA stuff gets bashed a bit unfairly. The Basic Pistol and PPIH programs are pretty good. I do think the instructor standards should be higher, though.

But I've been labelled as "just an NRA instructor" by some real super-duper high speed meat-eaters in the past, so I'm probably biased. ;-)

I'm hosting Tom in April for his instructor course and I hope to do the CSAT course in 2013. I plan on obtaining additional NRA certs though.

I wanted to clarify the above, because when I re-read it the sarcasm didn't necessarily shine through like I had wanted. :cool:

The absolute opposite has been my experience: combat veterans with a lot of real-world experience and those that have served in elite units have always been interested, helpful, supportive, open-minded, and enthusiastic about someone without that background (such as myself) becoming a shooting instructor and teaching folks the proper fundamentals of carbine and pistol.

The only ones that have ever given me a hard time have absolutely no background or experience themselves, but choose to live vicariously through their favorite Tier 1 trainers.

:D

Suvorov
01-07-2012, 01:25 PM
The absolute opposite has been my experience: combat veterans with a lot of real-world experience and those that have served in elite units have always been interested, helpful, supportive, open-minded, and enthusiastic about someone without that background (such as myself) becoming a shooting instructor and teaching folks the proper fundamentals of carbine and pistol.

The only ones that have ever given me a hard time have absolutely no background or experience themselves, but choose to live vicariously through their favorite Tier 1 trainers.

The true professionals have really nothing to prove. The lion can just lay out in the sun and bask, while it is the monkeys who scream and throw poo at each other.

BTW - thanks again for all the great feedback and the tangential discussions, it has been really helpful and encouraging.

jlw
01-07-2012, 01:45 PM
I wanted to clarify the above, because when I re-read it the sarcasm didn't necessarily shine through like I had wanted. :cool:

The absolute opposite has been my experience: combat veterans with a lot of real-world experience and those that have served in elite units have always been interested, helpful, supportive, open-minded, and enthusiastic about someone without that background (such as myself) becoming a shooting instructor and teaching folks the proper fundamentals of carbine and pistol.

The only ones that have ever given me a hard time have absolutely no background or experience themselves, but choose to live vicariously through their favorite Tier 1 trainers.

:D


One of the reasons that I did the NRA certs was because I noticed whenever my guys and I would teach safety classes for citizens, we would use terminology that we learned starting in the academy and advanced training. To citizens that had no training whatsoever, there were times we just didn't relate well. The strength of Basic Pistol is that it is a ready made format for people with no background or training.

My problem with the NRA certs is not the certs; it's the people that get them and use them a basis to rope in unsuspecting people with an air of legitimacy and then teach all sorts of ridiculous stuff.

Jay Cunningham
01-07-2012, 02:16 PM
My problem with the NRA certs is not the certs; it's the people that get them and use them a basis to rope in unsuspecting people with an air of legitimacy and then teach all sorts of ridiculous stuff.

Won't hear any argument from me.

Marty Hayes
01-07-2012, 08:59 PM
Toi become certified by the Firearms Academy of Seattle to be a handgun instructor, the candidate must do the following:

1) Have taken our five, 2-day handgun training courses as a paying student. (That shows they are serious, and we get a feel for their personality in the mean time).

2) Be invited to enter our instructor development program. We only take two individuals at a time, and the process takes 2 years.

3) During these two years, one must serve as an unpaid assistant with all our different training courses, and retake our defensive handgun course with the weak hand as the primary hand, along with taking it with a revolver.

4) Attend Massad Ayoob's MAG 20 classroom "Rules of Engagement for Armed Encounters." He is the best there is, and I want all my certified instructors having this training.

5) Attend outside instructors, such as Tom Givens, Chuck Taylor, Rob Pincus, Todd Green, etc. training courses, with the number of class hours in these different courses (including FAS's classes, totalling at least 200 hours.

6) Pass the FAS Handgun Master Certification, (prior to entering the instructor development program).

Most of our instructors far exceed these minimum qualifications, BTW.

Marty Hayes, President
The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc.

mnealtx
01-07-2012, 09:02 PM
Looks like a quite comprehensive list of qualifications!

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Hayes.

BWT
01-08-2012, 04:12 AM
I'd say being an Instructor is probably like any good profession, you need to keep your experience and certifications somewhat fresh.

(I say somewhat because let's face it... It is a business, I can't imagine you're making too much money becoming an firearms instructor, and let's face another fact, you're not a 9 to 5 job, it's about scheduling and filling classes, as well).

But I'd say you need to be an active shooter, and you need to take other instructor's courses, IMHO, that's a hallmark of a good instructor, humility, and the ability to sit in another class attentively and as a student, and truly be a student.

There are no absolutes.

Prdator
01-27-2012, 01:14 PM
Toi become certified by the Firearms Academy of Seattle to be a handgun instructor, the candidate must do the following:

6) Pass the FAS Handgun Master Certification, (prior to entering the instructor development program).

Most of our instructors far exceed these minimum qualifications, BTW.

Marty Hayes, President
The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc.



Marty,

Woudl you mind posting the course of fire for the FAS, Handgun Master Test?
Thanks

Mr_White
01-30-2012, 12:07 PM
Marty,

Woudl you mind posting the course of fire for the FAS, Handgun Master Test?
Thanks

I'm not Marty and I sure hope I am not stepping out on a limb here, but the FAS Handgun Master Test appears to be publicly posted on the FAS website here: www.firearmsacademy.com/handgun/10-advanced-defensive-handgun

Pasted from that page:

FAS HANDGUN MASTER TEST

1. Accuracy: From holster, shooter fires 6 shots in 30 seconds at 15 yards, all A-zones.

2. Multiple targets/Reloading: At 7 yards, draw and fire one shot on each of 3 targets, reload and one shot on each of three targets, reload again and cover target. 11 seconds total time, 17 sec. for revolver. Run twice. Total of 12 shots, 6 must be A-zones, the rest can be C-Zones, no D-zones or misses.

NOTE: Instructor will start stopwatch on whistle, and blow whistle for .5 seconds at the 10.5 second mark on the stop watch. Any shots fired after the whistle are noted as an overtime shot, and the attempt will not be scored as a pass.

3. Moving Target: At 7 yards, target will appear and be visible for 2.25 sec. traveling approximately 4 yards. Shooter must draw and fire 2 shots, starting when target appears. 3 runs, all A-zones.

4. One Handed Shooting Skills: Shooter at 4 yards, on whistle, draws and fires 6 shots in 6 seconds, all A-zone hits.

Repeated from low ready with weak hand.

NOTE: Instructor will start stopwatch on whistle, and blow whistle for .5 seconds at the 5.5 second mark on the stop watch. Any shots fired after the whistle are noted as an overtime shot and will not pass.

5) Low Light: Shooter at 5 yards, on whistle draws and fires one shot on each of 3 targets, 3.5 sec. or less. Repeat for a total of 6 times. 18 shots total, at least 9 must be A-zones, the rest C-zones. No D zones or misses.

NOTE: Instructor will start stopwatch on whistle, and blow whistle for .5 seconds at the 3 second mark on the stop watch. Any shots fired after the whistle are noted as an overtime shot, and results in a “did not pass.”

rsa-otc
01-30-2012, 02:40 PM
I'm not Marty and I sure hope I am not stepping out on a limb here, but the FAS Handgun Master Test appears to be publicly posted on the FAS website here: www.firearmsacademy.com/handgun/10-advanced-defensive-handgun

Pasted from that page:

FAS HANDGUN MASTER TEST

1. Accuracy: From holster, shooter fires 6 shots in 30 seconds at 15 yards, all A-zones.

2. Multiple targets/Reloading: At 7 yards, draw and fire one shot on each of 3 targets, reload and one shot on each of three targets, reload again and cover target. 11 seconds total time, 17 sec. for revolver. Run twice. Total of 12 shots, 6 must be A-zones, the rest can be C-Zones, no D-zones or misses.

NOTE: Instructor will start stopwatch on whistle, and blow whistle for .5 seconds at the 10.5 second mark on the stop watch. Any shots fired after the whistle are noted as an overtime shot, and the attempt will not be scored as a pass.

3. Moving Target: At 7 yards, target will appear and be visible for 2.25 sec. traveling approximately 4 yards. Shooter must draw and fire 2 shots, starting when target appears. 3 runs, all A-zones.

4. One Handed Shooting Skills: Shooter at 4 yards, on whistle, draws and fires 6 shots in 6 seconds, all A-zone hits.

Repeated from low ready with weak hand.

NOTE: Instructor will start stopwatch on whistle, and blow whistle for .5 seconds at the 5.5 second mark on the stop watch. Any shots fired after the whistle are noted as an overtime shot and will not pass.

5) Low Light: Shooter at 5 yards, on whistle draws and fires one shot on each of 3 targets, 3.5 sec. or less. Repeat for a total of 6 times. 18 shots total, at least 9 must be A-zones, the rest C-zones. No D zones or misses.

NOTE: Instructor will start stopwatch on whistle, and blow whistle for .5 seconds at the 3 second mark on the stop watch. Any shots fired after the whistle are noted as an overtime shot, and results in a “did not pass.”

Are the draws from concealment?

Mr_White
01-30-2012, 06:02 PM
Are the draws from concealment?

Sorry, I don't know.

Marty Hayes
02-04-2012, 11:06 PM
Sorry guys, lost track of this thread. No, draws are not from concealment. Frankly, the hardest part about the test is the moving target and low light.

Also, while the test looks pretty simple, the reality is you need to be much better than the test to pass the test, because one must pass all tests. One dropped shot, one late run,and you fail the whole test.

Wendell
05-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Becoming a Firearms Instructor (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/behind-the-line/becoming-a-firearms-instructor/)
Written by Tom Givens (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/author/tom/) on April 6, 2012https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/behind-the-line/becoming-a-firearms-instructor/

Suvorov
05-29-2012, 11:47 PM
Becoming a Firearms Instructor (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/behind-the-line/becoming-a-firearms-instructor/)
Written by Tom Givens (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/author/tom/) on April 6, 2012https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/behind-the-line/becoming-a-firearms-instructor/

Excellent writeup, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I'm still in the process of trying to get my work schedule to line up with an instructors course and it will be most likely this fall when I have a few weeks vacation. Until then I'm just trying to improve my own skills and proficiency, helping out at the range, as well as learning what I can here.

cracker
05-30-2012, 10:29 AM
Interesting thread as I recently took the NRA basic pistol and the PPITH instructor classes and had a great time. They named the basic pistol course correctly in that is is just that very basic. The shooting for the PPITH course again very basic but did learn some neat drills for new shooters to try. Out of 20 students from what I hear 4 did not make it, as they shouldn't have. I am also looking at instructing to make a little money to keep me in ammo and in classes. I love taking classes to learn more, I feel if I take a course and learn one or two things that help me ( which in turn will help my students) its well worth it. I have people wanting me to give a class so they can get their CCP, but I want to wait until after I take Maasad Ayoobs Mag 40 class in a couple of weeks.
I hope more will chime in as my mind is like a sponge and I just can't seem to soak up enough info.
Cracker