Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women (CO)

[walker2713]

https://www.policeone.com/women-officers/articles/381817006-Judge-Colo-citys-police-fitness-test-discriminated-against-women/

[LittleLebowski]

Bullshit.

[BehindBlueI's]

He said some of the evaluations - such as the push-up test - favored men, while "not being designed to evaluate an officer's overall suitability for duty."

I agree with at least the second part. Push-ups aren't used because they measure anyone's ability to do the job...they are used because they are easy to test for and to count. Which is the problem with PT tests in both the military and LE. They are designed to be able to run large amounts of people through a standard (and arbitrary) series of easily quantifiable tasks. They are not designed for any bonafide job requirements.

[Peally]

Bummer. There's jobs I can't pass arbitrary tests for either.

[John Hearne]

It's a good thing that physical fitness has nothing to do with your ability to handle stressful, life-and-death situations. Otherwise, someone might get hurt. :rolleyes:

[lwt16]

My former agency didn't have PT test once you were on the streets and certified. Instead, they had a weight/height chart thingie and annual weigh in.

If you couldn't make weight, you had to go get a body fat percentage test (at your own expense/ bout 5.00 at a local university) and if you were sub 20 percent (males) you were GTG.

Current agency has a watered down version of an obstacle course with a more than generous time to beat. 70 seconds is the cutoff and at the graceful age of 47, I ran it in 44 seconds the other day at a moderate jog. This is with gunbelt on but your choice of footware.

We do this every two years and it really brings out the whining and moaning.....and the doctor's excuses flow in like a tidal wave.

Our recruits have to pass state standards and they really aren't that hard. 22 push ups, 25 sit ups and of course, the 1.5 mile run in 15 seconds and change. I passed several times in my youth and if I trained for a couple of weeks could pass it as I approach the 50 year mark.

It's to make sure someone isn't completely dead weight if the fight gets brought to their lap......not to see if they can do the job.

If this agency can't do PT test anymore, do the weight requirement thing like my former agency. I never could make weight there even in my 20s as the standards were designed for someone who never eats. Give me a PT test once every two years instead. Our chubbiest and laziest can pass that thing. A weight chart would blitz 40 percent of our sworn ranks.

Regards.

[Doug MacRay]

From the article:



"If municipalities are going to use tests like this, they have to make sure there's a scientific basis behind them," said Jocelyn Larkin, executive director of the Impact Fund. The organization helps bankroll civil-rights lawsuits, and it contributed $30,000 to this case."

Are they sure they want to go down this road? Any fitness test for being a patrol or tactical officer that has a scientific or realistic basis is going to be far more difficult than push-ups and sit-ups or a run. I would be all for a test that involves having to overpower and cuff a large attacker/resister or fight to retain your gun from a large aggressor or chase down a fleeing person in full kit. The reason that most agencies don't do this (including most of the military) is that most people would fail. In the Army SF Q course much of the PT goes well above and beyond the sit-up/push-up/jog test because they know it's nonsense while many of the "regular Army" units do PT that focuses entirely on improving PT test scores for their (often remarkably out of shape) soldiers. A real world PT test in the military would mean a run & gun stress shoot followed up by a buddy carry/drag of the largest person in your unit in full kit. But most people can't drag or carry a 250lb. kitted soldier 100 yards (or even 1 yard, often), so they don't test for that even if they should.

The point is, if an agency is going to commit to doing a realistic PT test they are going to lose a lot of people. What the women involved in this lawsuit are asking for would almost certainly be more difficult than what has been asked of them in the past. This might be a case where "malicious compliance" could come in to play. "Oh you want a realistic PT test? OK, fight off a 230lb man who is trying to take your gun." We all know how that would end for most of the women (and many of the men) in the average LE agency.

[BehindBlueI's]

It's a good thing that physical fitness has nothing to do with your ability to handle stressful, life-and-death situations. Otherwise, someone might get hurt. :rolleyes:

Which assumes push-ups are a measure of physical fitness that is relevant vs just easy to administer.

Let's look at the Army. I knew medics who could pass the PT test with flying colors, but couldn't lift me out of the cupola of my mine clearing tank. I knew bridge layers (12C) who could pass the PT test but who struggled with Bailey bridge pieces. I was a combat engineer. Something like carrying two 40-lb weights (cratering charges) a set distance, driving a certain number of fence posts, carrying a 65-lb pack a few miles...those would be things relevant to what we were expected to do. I'm a bigger guy. The 2 mile run was something I passed but never really excelled at, maxing it only once. Yet when it came time to pound fence posts for hours to make wire obstacles or hump demolitions for a few miles, guess who excelled while smaller guys who could run the 2 mile flagged?

That's the difference between arbitrary testing and bonafide job requirements. Not that you can't, or shouldn't, test for physical ability but that the tests aren't measuring ability that's relevant. Body weight exercises especially.

[blues]

All I know is that I've seen some law enforcement officers during my time that I'm amazed could ever have passed muster based upon their size and girth. There is no way that some of these folks could ever do a chin up let alone see their feet while zippering their pants.

I won't argue that everyone needs to be in "SWAT" team shape, (though I'm not sure just what that is these days), but the ability to lift and carry significant weight up and down flights of stairs without a heart attack or being out of commission with a bad back might be a starting point.

Removing standards of performance doesn't seem to have made things better, imho.

ETA: Just read BBI's post after typing mine and I think he and I are on something of the same page. You don't have to excel at the broad jump, bench press or two mile run to be fit for the job...there are better performance measuring tasks. And I completely agree with BBI regarding the ability to do strenuous labor (like sledge hammering, sawing, chopping etc) over a protracted period of time.

[secondstoryguy]

We are in the process of implementing a physical fitness standard. The women's standards are significantly lower. I voiced my displeasure of this and the reason given was that women have less muscle density and generally perform at lower standards then men due to their physical makeup. Such bullshit as I know inevitably these tests are going to be a factor in advancement...

[LSP552]

Make it job relative.

Make it mandatory.

Apply it from hire to retirement.

No age adjustment like Cooper. If it's relative to the job, you need to able to do it at 25 and 55, if doing the same job.

Provide fitness equipment, gym member ship and/or duty time to maintain job related fitness.

And then you can run any fat, lazy slob up the street regardless of sex.

[blues]

Make it job relative.

Make it mandatory.

Apply it from hire to retirement.

No age adjustment like Cooper. If it's relative to the job, you need to able to do it at 25 and 55, if doing the same job.

Provide fitness equipment, gym member ship and/or duty time to maintain job related fitness.

Agree.

I actually "think", that those rules were in place during my time but I don't remember anything being actively enforced except for the years I was on SRT and one particular year when they decided on having agents stress tested on treadmills for some reason.

[TAZ]

Exactly. This could turn into a be careful what you ask for jiffy quick. Can you imagine the whining after needing to chase a young, fit criminal for a block or two, maybe over fences and such. Then having to wrestle them to the ground while defending from a weapon take away, then chase again the into a FoF setting. Wonder how many heart attacks we'd get or how much louder the whining would get.

They are push-ups for fucks sake. Why the hell cant women do push-ups. We aren't talking about having to to hundreds are we??

[luckyman]

US Male 90th percentile weight / female 95th percentile weight is right around 250 lbs. I'd love to see a standard like "drag a 250lb sandbag 50 yards for time". 3MPH = about 90 yards a minute IIRC; it would be interesting to see what a 2 minute cutoff would do. Whether you spin it as saving a colleague or a proxy to being able to deal with a member of the public would be whatever fits best PC-wise.

ETA: F me, *average* female weight in the US is now 168 lbs at 5'4".

Further ETA: Jeez, even 75th percentile female weight is over 190. Just make it 190 lbs to keep away arguments of judging men as more important.

[Peally]

US Male 90th percentile weight / female 95th percentile weight is right around 250 lbs. I'd love to see a standard like "drag a 250lb sandbag 50 yards for time". 3MPH = about 90 yards a minute IIRC; it would be interesting to see what a 2 minute cutoff would do. Whether you spin it as saving a colleague or a proxy to being able to deal with a member of the public would be whatever fits best PC-wise.

ETA: F me, *average* female weight in the US is now 168 lbs at 5'4".

We be fat. How about you only get service from emergency personnel able to realistically help you based on their own weight? Hell I'd never have to help anyone but teenagers and meth heads.

[ranger]

Army has been going through this recently. The Infantry school at FT Benning (aka Maneuver Center of Excellence with Armor and Cav now) put a lot of effort into studying a PT test that would measure capabilities for an Infantry soldier of any age or gender versus the classic 3 event APFT. Example - dropping a 120 mortar round down the tube, pulling a dummy simulating wounded soldier out of a BFV turret, removing the barrel from a BFV 25mm, and so on. Not sure where this going now........

[WobblyPossum]

Make it job relative.

Make it mandatory.

Apply it from hire to retirement.

No age adjustment like Cooper. If it's relative to the job, you need to able to do it at 25 and 55, if doing the same job.

Provide fitness equipment, gym member ship and/or duty time to maintain job related fitness.

And then you can run any fat, lazy slob up the street regardless of sex.

There's been some debate about fitness standards at my agency recently and this is exactly what I've been saying when asked. Realistic and job relative standards without age or gender breakdowns. I like the obstacle course, agility test idea. Everyone on patrol must complete the same course within the same time limit regardless of age or gender. Apply a slightly lower standard for investigators and a slightly higher standard for special teams. Your standards depend on your position, not your age or gender. I would love that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[txdpd]

Pushups are a pretty good indicator of general upper body and core strength, may not be a police specific but certainly useful as a measure of general fitness. The Mayo Clinic even publishes push up standards. I would say that the core strength component is much more important, since chronic back injury (from duty belts and/or sitting) is a constant risk we all face and causes significant loss of productivity. While there are a ton of better test, pushups don't require special equipment to administer or train, and have a relatively low risk of injury.

Workers Comp is a big issue with physical fitness standards. If you are injured while engaging in physical activity to meet job requirements, who's going to pay the bill?

What usually hems places up is that they get "standards" from cut rate organizations that won't be able defend their recommendations in court. Pay for professional services or pay for cutting corners.

In the Marines I was pulling a 300 PFT at 130lbs. I was light, fast and good on paper, but I dragged ass in the field. I'm closer to the other end of the spectrum these days, still dragging ass, but a lot stronger and able to grind out work. I get both sides of the argument and someone is always going to have a legitimate complaint with the test.

[ranger]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Some of the first responder and military positions are physically demanding. I retired at 55 as an Infantry officer and was still passing the APFT (frankly beating a lot of my young solders but that is another issue). However - our society is based on a retirement age of 65 or so and every day the number of jobs with some form of pension is reducing. It will be interesting to see how we as a society handle those who started in a career path that demands a certain amount of physical ability as they age and suffer wear and tear. No, I do not have the answer - just an observation.

[Doug MacRay]

In a perfect world this would be my PT test:

Desk Duty/non-sworn: Carry 30lb box up three flights of stairs without taking a break (I'm being serious here, having some sort of minimum physical standard for everyone is a good idea and will help prevent complete abject laziness).

Officers in the field but unlikely to arrest someone personally (investigators, etc.): Physically restrain uncooperative but non-violent 180lb subject for three minutes (to simulate backup arriving) OR place subject in handcuffs, whichever occurs first.

Patrol/investigators who make frequent contacts (drug units, etc.): While in full kit, physically restrain violent 200lb subject while retaining weapon for three minutes (to simulate back arriving) OR place subject in handcuffs, whichever occurs first. All use of force doctrines apply (i.e. no chokeholds if your department doesn't allow them). Automatic failure for failing to retain weapon. Immediately conduct 100 yard sprint. Failure time is 45s. Immediately conduct 200lb dummy drag for 50 ft (no time limit, but no rest periods). Automatic failure for letting go of dummy.

SWAT/tactical units: While in full kit conduct basic obstacle course with live fire drills interspersed (I would leave this up to each unit to design based on their specific and likely AO as well as their own unit standards).

All tests would be pass/fail with a maximum of two attempts per day, one day per week. Now I realize how unrealistic this is, but if the physical standard of a patrol officer is to be able to arrest or restrain a combative subject, then that should be what is tested. If they need to be able to run a block or two to chase someone down in their uniform, then that should be tested. And if they need to be able to drag an injured officer or civilian out of a line of fire, then that should be tested as well.

The military has PT standards that vary by branch and many units (especially combat units) have a higher level of physical standards than the minimum required by their branch, even if they are informal standards. When someone is potentially going to be dragging you out of a burning vehicle, then it becomes very important to ensure that they can actually do that. My local big city PD markets themselves as a "paramilitary" agency and yet some of their patrol officers I see are embarrassingly out of shape.

If a PT test is difficult because it is realistic and that leads to gender disparities, so be it. At least that would be defensible in court to avoid petty lawsuits like the one referenced at the beginning of this thread. Of course, standards like the ones I've laid out are practically impossible to enforce because the employment pool in our country isn't exactly stocked with athletic specimens in this era. But if a push-up/sit-up/jog PT test is the sole physical standard for police, don't be surprised when some of them can't do more than that.

[ReverendMeat]

Army has been going through this recently. The Infantry school at FT Benning (aka Maneuver Center of Excellence with Armor and Cav now) put a lot of effort into studying a PT test that would measure capabilities for an Infantry soldier of any age or gender versus the classic 3 event APFT. Example - dropping a 120 mortar round down the tube, pulling a dummy simulating wounded soldier out of a BFV turret, removing the barrel from a BFV 25mm, and so on. Not sure where this going now........

Marines started doing similar a few years back with the Combat Fitness Test. It incorporates a short run in boots 'n utes, lifting ammo cans, throwing dummy grenades, and fireman-carrying a buddy through a small obstacle course. It's a pain in the ass to do on top of a regular PFT but at least it makes sense. Army of course there's still the standard PFT and job-specific standards like you mentioned. For my current MOS the requirement is to get a 4 man team in full battle rattle and move a howitzer muzzle brake a short distance. Simple pass/fail, I like it and it makes more sense than silly bullshit like situps.

[Greg]

US Male 90th percentile weight / female 95th percentile weight is right around 250 lbs. I'd love to see a standard like "drag a 250lb sandbag 50 yards for time". 3MPH = about 90 yards a minute IIRC; it would be interesting to see what a 2 minute cutoff would do. Whether you spin it as saving a colleague or a proxy to being able to deal with a member of the public would be whatever fits best PC-wise.

ETA: F me, *average* female weight in the US is now 168 lbs at 5'4".

Further ETA: Jeez, even 75th percentile female weight is over 190. Just make it 190 lbs to keep away arguments of judging men as more important.

Wow! When I was a kid in the 1970s I read a book that said the average American Male was 5'9" and 165 pounds.

Logging off PF to buy stock in Diabetes Drug makers....

[luckyman]

Wow! When I was a kid in the 1970s I read a book that said the average American Male was 5'9" and 165 pounds.

Logging off PF to buy stock in Diabetes Drug makers....

My daughter is off to Jackson MS next week week for a Prosthetist residency. MS being the state with the highest incidence of diabetes and therefore having the greatest per-capita amputations, or something close to that. Prosthetics is a booming "industry".
One of her big goals this year is to not get fat.

[peterb]

Firefighting went through this years ago when women complained that things like bench presses were being used as fitness tests for employment. One result was the CPAT:

The Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT):
The CPAT is a timed course consisting of eight events that simulate actual actions firefighters are expected to perform. The events must be performed safely and correctly within set guidelines. The CPAT is a pass/fail test, and the entire course must be completed within 10 minutes and 20 seconds or the test is failed.

During the test, the candidate will progress through the course of events wearing a 50 lb. vest, which is meant to simulate a firefighters self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA), turnouts and gear. The eight events consist of:

Stair Climb (an additional 25 lbs (2 -12.5 lb weights) are added to the candidates shoulders for this event to simulate carrying hose packs up the stairs of a high-rise building.
Hose Drag
Equipment Carry
Ladder Raise and Extension
Forcible Entry
Search
Rescue
Ceiling Breech and Pull


It's hard to argue that it's not relevant to the work requirements.

[Coyotesfan97]

The sticky wicket for mandatory physical fitness tests in LE is they require giving Officers on duty work out time. Not a big deal for firefighters working a 24 hour shift and fitting workouts in between Netflix and Xbox :p

It's a big deal for us and it's what has stopped fitness tests in the past. Staffing levels are bad enough right now. I guess they could do what they do for K9. We work 9 hour shifts and get an hour for dog care. Then it'd be a matter of adjusting shift changes.

[Peally]

Moral of the story is be a firefighter. Netflix and Xbox.

[Hambo]

Apply a slightly lower standard for investigators and a slightly higher standard for special teams. Your standards depend on your position, not your age or gender.

I've got some real world fitness test ideas:

Real world patrol test: In full patrol uniform and gear, you have to fight someone who outweighs you by 50 pounds for five minutes.

Real world SWAT test: lean on an armored vehicle while holding an M4 on target.

Real world investigator test: while eating a cheeseburger in a restaurant, try to remember if you put bullets in your gun.

Seriously, if a patrol officer can't run a suspect down, the dogs or helo can. The worst case for patrol is the need to survive until help arrives (better yet would be to kick ass before help arrives). Except for the fact that we didn't wrestle people like patrol, the needs in SWAT are basically the same: aerobic and carrying heavy shit/dragging heavy people. Detectives, maybe they should just have a typing test. ;) :p:D

[Rex G]

Our PAT test is "mandated," but only specified job descriptions must pass, such as SWAT and cadet training, are required to actually pass the PAT; everyone else must only "attempt" the test. I am prohibited from discussing details of PD policy, but let's just say that merely signing-up is the most difficult part of an acceptable "attempt." I was willing to diligently perform each task, except for going full-speed on the knee-twisting slalom portion of the timed obstacle course, and of course, that was the first part of the test, so I was instantly DQ'ed, thanked, and not offered an opportunity to perform the other tasks. That was the last time I suited-up for the test.

I have forgotten what our PAT test requires, but in addition to the above-mentioned timed obstacle course, I seem to remember sit-ups, a timed 1.5-mile run, a vertical jump to a specified height, and a choice of bench-pressing a specified percentage of our body weight, or opting for a specified number of push-ups.

Our "attempt" is scheduled during our birth month, as a means of keeping the scheduling spaced relatively evenly throughout the year.

Since that time, a financial reward has been offered, for passing the PAT, to officers hired after a specified date, and additional leave hours for newer-hires who pass the test.

An alternative obstacle course was contemplated, which did away with the knee-twisting slalom, and instead incorporated carrying a sandbag, meant to simulate the weight of a child, up and down stairs, and through at least one window. I wondered of this was borrowed from the firefighter's PAT. I participated in a trial run of this test, and liked it, but it was not adopted.

A few years ago, as part of mandated in-service training, all first-responder officers performed a practical exercise, in uniform, that included securing the patrol vehicle, running a practically-designed obstable course, among buildings, and then using a training baton to strike red-man-padded role-players for a specified amount of time. There was no timing involved, except for engaging the padded role-players for a specified time. I liked this.

It will be interesting to see what our new chief decides, for the next training cycle, which starts in September.

Regarding worker's comp issues with a PAT test: I am not a lawyer, but yes, anything performed as part of one's employment is covered by worker's comp, and this includes blown-out knees from that silly slalom-around-the-f-ing-cones.

[Shotgun]

Firefighting went through this years ago when women complained that things like bench presses were being used as fitness tests for employment. One result was the CPAT:

The Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT):
The CPAT is a timed course consisting of eight events that simulate actual actions firefighters are expected to perform. The events must be performed safely and correctly within set guidelines. The CPAT is a pass/fail test, and the entire course must be completed within 10 minutes and 20 seconds or the test is failed.

During the test, the candidate will progress through the course of events wearing a 50 lb. vest, which is meant to simulate a firefighters self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA), turnouts and gear. The eight events consist of:

Stair Climb (an additional 25 lbs (2 -12.5 lb weights) are added to the candidates shoulders for this event to simulate carrying hose packs up the stairs of a high-rise building.
Hose Drag
Equipment Carry
Ladder Raise and Extension
Forcible Entry
Search
Rescue
Ceiling Breech and Pull


It's hard to argue that it's not relevant to the work requirements.

How many women pass this test?

[peterb]

How many women pass this test?

A quick search found an article from 2002 stating that the pass rate for one department was 90% for male applicants and 50% for female applicants.

[ranger]

The sticky wicket for mandatory physical fitness tests in LE is they require giving Officers on duty work out time. Not a big deal for firefighters working a 24 hour shift and fitting workouts in between Netflix and Xbox :p

It's a big deal for us and it's what has stopped fitness tests in the past. Staffing levels are bad enough right now. I guess they could do what they do for K9. We work 9 hour shifts and get an hour for dog care. Then it'd be a matter of adjusting shift changes.

The US Military Reserve components have to exercise and eat right on their own time so they can pass the APFT and meet height/weight.

[CleverNickname]

Our recruits have to pass state standards and they really aren't that hard. 22 push ups, 25 sit ups and of course, the 1.5 mile run in 15 seconds and change. I passed several times in my youth and if I trained for a couple of weeks could pass it as I approach the 50 year mark.


I think you need to change your avatar.

http://i.imgur.com/txBVar4.jpg

;)

[Totem Polar]

I've got some real world fitness test ideas:

Real world patrol test: In full patrol uniform and gear, you have to fight someone who outweighs you by 50 pounds for five minutes.

Real world SWAT test: lean on an armored vehicle while holding an M4 on target.

Real world investigator test: while eating a cheeseburger in a restaurant, try to remember if you put bullets in your gun.


Actual LoL on that.

I'll go back to my lane now.

[BehindBlueI's]

Detectives, maybe they should just have a typing test. ;) :p:D

Yeah, because that's all detectives do.

I guess you think the coffee just makes its self, don't you? Then sprouts little wings and flies to my desk to pour itself in my cup?

Don't even get me started on the cardio required to constantly slam my gun and badge on the LT's desk and yell "Fine, I'll work this case on my own time!"

http://www.dailymoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/detective.jpg

[John Hearne]

How many women pass this test?

I'm not sure it's still binding but a Federal judge held that just because women couldn't pass the job related firefighter test was no reason to exclude them.

There's a John Stossel special from the late 90's called "Girls and Boys Are Different" that is amazing. One of the undeniable differences in the sexes is upper body strength. Watching Gloria Steinem doing the mental gymnastics to justify endangering the public make it worth watching. (As an aside, I dated a PhD student in a Gender Studies program. Everyone of them hated that special - not because it was wrong but because they couldn't argue logically against it)

[blues]

I'm not sure it's still binding but a Federal judge held that just because women couldn't pass the job related firefighter test was no reason to exclude them.

And just because someone has an IQ of 30 is no reason they shouldn't be hired as a rocket scientist at NASA or as a structural engineer.
What's ability got to do with it? It's equality that matters.

18131

[peterb]

As with most things, there is a balance. There is a room for a range of sizes and strengths on an effective team. The person I'd want anchoring a belay, doing forcible entry or controlling a 2.5" line is probably not the same person I'd choose for a confined-space entry, to ride the litter on a high-angle rescue or crawl into a vehicle to be with a patient.

If you insist that everyone be able to drag a 300-pound body, does that make your team less effective in other roles where agility might be more important?

But there is a baseline of strength/fitness needed to be safe and effective no matter what your role.

[blues]

As with most things, there is a balance. There is a room for a range of sizes and strengths on an effective team. The person I'd want anchoring a belay, doing forcible entry or controlling a 2.5" line is probably not the same person I'd choose for a confined-space entry, to ride the litter on a high-angle rescue or crawl into a vehicle to be with a patient.

But there is a baseline of strength/fitness needed to be safe and effective no matter what your role.

Agreed. Especially with the last which is too often overlooked in jobs requiring at least a modicum of fitness...just as intellectual skills and competence are often overlooked elsewhere in regard to other positions.

I'd love to see how folks today would fare if they had to sit through the old, (six hour, as I recall), PACE test administered for federal employment back when I came on in 1977 (and abolished in 1981).


...seemingly unthinkable in the current climate, would be for the federal government to do a better job of choosing among its job applicants by employing a tool used by both colleges and the military in picking whom to take: standardized testing.

In fact, the feds themselves once had an excellent test for entry-level job applicants. One of the last malignant relics of the Carter Administration is the enduring hash it made of civil servant hiring by abolishing the Professional and Administrative Career Examination (PACE) in January 1981.

That this disastrous step has disappeared down the memory hole exemplifies the reigning prejudice in modern America against publicly discussing how best to select people.

Excerpted from "Whatever Happened To The Federal Civil Service Exam?" (http://www.vdare.com/posts/whatever-happened-to-the-federal-civil-service-exam)

I'd argue that it'd be very hard to justify the position that things have been made better by the "relaxation" of standards.

[peterb]

I'd argue that it'd be very hard to justify the position that things have been made better by the "relaxation" of standards.

Right. There's a big difference between relaxing standards and choosing appropriate standards.

There have certainly been biased tests, but that's no excuse for throwing out all testing.

As the linked article said, this should be a topic of open public discussion. What are the appropriate criteria? What are the skills needed for the job? Does the proposed test actually measure what you want to measure? Does it predict on-the-job performance? And how do you deal fairly with people who may have aptitude but have had poor educational opportunities?

[Hambo]

Right. There's a big difference between relaxing standards and choosing appropriate standards.

There have certainly been biased tests, but that's no excuse for throwing out all testing.

As the linked article said, this should be a topic of open public discussion. What are the appropriate criteria? What are the skills needed for the job? Does the proposed test actually measure what you want to measure? Does it predict on-the-job performance? And how do you deal fairly with people who may have aptitude but have had poor educational opportunities?

Back in the early days of space flight, if you were six feet tall you couldn't get in the astronaut program. So it's true that not everyone gets to be an astronaut. Life is not fair or unfair, it just is.

[Totem Polar]

Ultimately, if you want to be in the 1st violin section of a symphony, a jockey in the Kentucky Derby, a lineman in the NFL, an adjunct teaching modern languages at a community college, or a teller making change at a bank, then there are going to be objective performance standards that leave a lot of folks out of the running.

None of that stuff is life or death. We tolerate crushing physical standards in our games and our music entertainment, but have no use for keeping up standards where people could actually die and shit?

I'll go back to my lane now (again...)

[blues]

Ultimately, if you want to be in the 1st violin section of a symphony, a jockey in the Kentucky Derby, a lineman in the NFL, an adjunct teaching modern languages at a community college, or a teller making change at a bank, then there are going to be objective performance standards that leave a lot of folks out of the running.

None of that stuff is life or death. We tolerate crushing physical standards in our games and our music entertainment, but have no use for keeping up standards where people could actually die and shit?

I'll go back to my lane now (again...)

Who do you think you are waltzing in here and trying to apply common sense?!?

;)

[BehindBlueI's]

Ultimately, if you want to be in the 1st violin section of a symphony, a jockey in the Kentucky Derby, a lineman in the NFL, an adjunct teaching modern languages at a community college, or a teller making change at a bank, then there are going to be objective performance standards that leave a lot of folks out of the running.

You aren't testing the lineman on his ability to do calculus or requiring the violin player to tread water for 5 minutes. A push-up test for a lieutenant in internal affairs is pretty similar.

[blues]

You aren't testing the lineman on his ability to do calculus or requiring the violin player to tread water for 5 minutes. A push-up test for a lieutenant in internal affairs is pretty similar.

18136

[txdpd]

You aren't testing the lineman on his ability to do calculus or requiring the violin player to tread water for 5 minutes. A push-up test for a lieutenant in internal affairs is pretty similar.


And defectives in IA never have to sit in an interview room and take statements from angry, derange and/or mentally unstable individuals (by a lot of their thinking that could be on either side of the badge). Citizens never go to IA with an axe to grind with the police.

The results of the worst beating that I've ever seen an officer take occurred in an interview room.

A pushup test isn't going to replace DT, but being able to do some pushups isn't a bad place to start.

[Wondering Beard]

18136

BBI said calculus, not geometry ;-)

[blues]

BBI said calculus, not geometry ;-)

And now you know why I didn't get a job as a mathematician. It appears some standards are in place after all.

[Wondering Beard]

And now you know why I didn't get a job as a mathematician. It appears some standards are in place after all.

Yeah, but the question is: which place?

[blues]

Yeah, but the question is: which place?

Above my pay grade.

[BehindBlueI's]

And defectives in IA never have to sit in an interview room and take statements from angry, derange and/or mentally unstable individuals (by a lot of their thinking that could be on either side of the badge). Citizens never go to IA with an axe to grind with the police.

The results of the worst beating that I've ever seen an officer take occurred in an interview room.

A pushup test isn't going to replace DT, but being able to do some pushups isn't a bad place to start.

24 pushups in a minute means you can avoid the beating? 10 means you take it? Detective A is 120 lbs and can do 30 pushups. They avoid the ass whipping from the 300 lb slob who can't tie his own shoes? You're right, it doesn't replace DT, and is not a measure of the ability to fight.

We've got a homicide detective with double knee replacement as of last year. Nearly two decades of major felony investigating experience. Force him to retire because he can't run a mile in 10 minutes? Female sergeant pushing 60, over 20 years in homicide, incredible level of knowledge of the various criminal enterprises and connections behind grudge and dope murders. Force her to retire because she can't do pushups?

Double up in the interview room. Post an armed deputy/officer outside the room. Suspects restrained to a wall chain. If you're officer safety plan is reliant on always being the biggest, strongest person in the room you're going to get fucked one day when you aren't. I interviewed a robbery suspect last week who's biceps were about the size of my thigh, and I'm a bigger guy.

[secondstoryguy]

I think there should be an admin standard and a patrol standard with the patrol standard being job related (timed sprint, obstacles, simulated H2H,etc).

[Hideeho]

Back in the day I tried to have input on PT standards. I put together real world testing using input from the troops on the street. The testing included:

* Run up six flights of stairs then go hands-on with a suspect

* Sprint 50 yards, climb an eight-foot fence, then go hands-on with a suspect

* Swim the length of an Olympic pool

* Manipulate Glock slide simulating immediate action drill X 10 (running firearms training, had many who couldn’t manipulate slide. Lack of forearm/hand strength?)

State officials told me the Cooper Standard was the standard they would stick with. Reason, it was defensible if challenged in court. Defensibility of standards can shape testing.

[jnc36rcpd]

I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.

[Hideeho]

I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.

How about ability and duration? Running up stairs or climbing fences is one part of test. Combine those with a second part testing ability to engage after exertion. Do not have to win. Just stay in the fight for X amount of time. A set number for all, no weighted scoring for age or sex. Might be more real world.

[Chipster]

Moral of the story is be a firefighter. Netflix and Xbox.

For the win!

[GardoneVT]

PF testing is a murky subject,especially on an institutional level such as the military. Whatever standard the organization sets is what people will train to,for better or worse. Further some folks who'd otherwise be eminently qualified to do the job will be DQd by certain aspects of any test created.

My first supervisor was a fireplug of a man. The dude was by no means an unfit dirtbag,but he always took a hit on PT Testing because he had a huge waist. It wasn't because he was unfit; it's his body type to be a barrel chested guy. Meanwhile the beanpoles who clocked fast 1.5 mile times always aced their PT scores.

While I realize AF PT is a comedy script ,that's not what I'm trying to impart. No PT test can successfully measure the fighting fitness of everyone regardless of how well or poorly it's backed scientifically. Ive met four foot nada women that could square up if needed,and I've met six foot + monsters with the grit of a philosophy major.

[BehindBlueI's]

I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.

...and you start to see the issue that makes departments just use pushup/situp/run. There's really no way to standardize the test of fighting someone. Going three rounds with Mike Tyson isn't going three rounds with PeeWee Herman, and even going 3 rounds with fresh Mike Tyson vs end-of-8-hours-of-doing-this-shit Mike Tyson isn't the same.

Be able to climb a privacy fence? That's a reasonable test for patrol, something that's standardized, and something that's job relevant. It's also the same for everyone who is in patrol, privacy fences are the same height no matter how old you are or what genitals you are equipped with. If you're going to do a PT test, that's the sort of thing that should be included. Then job specific. Personally, I think K9 is the most physically demanding job on most police departments. I used to do K9 tracks as the patrol rifle backup. Keeping up with the dog, fighting through brush, lifting the dog over fences, etc. K9 cops, my hat is off to you as that's a bust ass job.

[txdpd]

I've read several recommendations for fitness testing that includes fighting with a role player. Any thoughts on how to implement that? How could one standardize the fitness and skill levels of the role players? What about the elements of chance that occur in most struggles? Off hand, I can't think of a way to use fighting as a test process, but it is an interesting idea.

I wouldn't bother. It's not worth the risk.

The first thing I would do is send everyone to a cardiologist. Studies on trained and healthy boxers have shown them hitting over 100% of the laboratory predicted maximum heart rate while fighting and averaging up to 98% of their maximum heart per three minute round. Fighting is incredibly strenuous. Along with that and "All that's old is new again" in the fitness world, Borg's rate of perceived exertion (RPE) is making the rounds again. It's from the early 70's, and uses a number system of 6-20 and it's very subjective system based off of your perception of how your body feels. It's very difficult to use and that's why it pops up and dies off. Most people simply cannot accurately perceive how hard they are actual working, unless they are approaching failure. Most people are either at rest, in that vast space of not training as hard as they can, or training towards failure. We're talking about a test that could push subjects to the very physical limits of their hearts, and even if you asked them to take it down a notch they wouldn't realistically know where to stop. With the under 30 crowd it's not that big of a deal, the 45 and over crowd is playing with a stick of dynamite with a short fuse. Look at how amped up some officers get in SIMS training and that's without a physical stimulus.

Edited: here's one study on boxers https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3871409/

Then there's the risk of bone, joint, and muscle injuries. So also hire a physical therapist and a chiropractor, and probably some physical trainers. How many officers can you afford to put on short or long term disability to conduct a test?

I think you'd be much better off with a skills assessment in a controlled environment and a separate physical test. Pushing a heavy prowler in a parking lot is a good way to get someone's heart rate up, have them do some hard work and have a low injury risk. I doubt that any court would validate that as a test. I get that you will never be able to simulate fighting without fighting, and even the best training out there will only work as well as the trainee is willing to push himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM35Ft1FUSY

My main focus would be functional fitness, and I don't mean crossfit. Unless they do pistol squats, most officers can't do a reverse step up, they'll maybe make it three inches on the way down and collapse. That's a big deal for a patrol officer that's using a similar movement pattern getting in and out of his squad car/suv 20 times a day. He's not using his hamstrings or glutes, and his knees and lower back are taking a beating. 20 bad reps down, 20 bad reps up, 200-250 working days a year, year to year. It's a recipe for chronic injury. Pushups, done with correct form with the abs and glutes will be engaged and a slight posterior pelvic tilt are a great exercise. Most people will use their hip flexors and spinal erectors to hold their core. It's a dysfunctional motor pattern, akin to not being able to walk and chew bubble gum. If every time you walked and chewed bubble gun, you bit your tongue, and you walked all the time, no one is going to be surprised when your tongue looks like a waffle. We shouldn't be surprised that an officer that control his core while doing a pushup usually won't have the ability to maintain a neutral pelvis position while walking around and end up with chronic back, hip and knee problems. Some mickey mouse PT test isn't a panacea that's going to cure the physical ailments of police work, but some of that basic stuff can help stave off chronic injuries, loss of productivity, and most importantly give officers the chance to avoid some of the physical conditions that affect quality of life during and post career.


24 pushups in a minute means you can avoid the beating? 10 means you take it? Detective A is 120 lbs and can do 30 pushups. They avoid the ass whipping from the 300 lb slob who can't tie his own shoes? You're right, it doesn't replace DT, and is not a measure of the ability to fight.

We've got a homicide detective with double knee replacement as of last year. Nearly two decades of major felony investigating experience. Force him to retire because he can't run a mile in 10 minutes? Female sergeant pushing 60, over 20 years in homicide, incredible level of knowledge of the various criminal enterprises and connections behind grudge and dope murders. Force her to retire because she can't do pushups?

Double up in the interview room. Post an armed deputy/officer outside the room. Suspects restrained to a wall chain. If you're officer safety plan is reliant on always being the biggest, strongest person in the room you're going to get fucked one day when you aren't. I interviewed a robbery suspect last week who's biceps were about the size of my thigh, and I'm a bigger guy.

I never said that pushups would stop someone from taking a beating, you're living in a fantasy world if you think someone that doesn't have the baseline physical fitness to do some push ups has a remote chance in a fight. I didn't realize I wrote what my officer safety plan was, but thanks for letting me know how fucked I am. I must have missed the part where I wrote about retiring out officers too. Thank you for deep insight into what I wasn't thinking.

[Coyotesfan97]

...and you start to see the issue that makes departments just use pushup/situp/run. There's really no way to standardize the test of fighting someone. Going three rounds with Mike Tyson isn't going three rounds with PeeWee Herman, and even going 3 rounds with fresh Mike Tyson vs end-of-8-hours-of-doing-this-shit Mike Tyson isn't the same.

Be able to climb a privacy fence? That's a reasonable test for patrol, something that's standardized, and something that's job relevant. It's also the same for everyone who is in patrol, privacy fences are the same height no matter how old you are or what genitals you are equipped with. If you're going to do a PT test, that's the sort of thing that should be included. Then job specific. Personally, I think K9 is the most physically demanding job on most police departments. I used to do K9 tracks as the patrol rifle backup. Keeping up with the dog, fighting through brush, lifting the dog over fences, etc. K9 cops, my hat is off to you as that's a bust ass job.

I had a two hour search the other night. It started about 0100 and ended at 0300 when my dog found the suspect hiding under a BBQ grill cover in a backyard over a wall. We were walking a path behind the house. My dog alerted and the other K9 team went in and got him to surrender. Then we had to finish the walk back to the car. It's a much better walk after a find. A little under 4,000 steps on that search.

It's an energized walk because you're getting pulled by the dog. We try to hold back for our covers sake. BBI knows the dogs walk fast!

[BehindBlueI's]

I wouldn't bother. It's not worth the risk.

The first thing I would do is send everyone to a cardiologist. Studies on trained and healthy boxers have shown them hitting over 100% of the laboratory predicted maximum heart rate while fighting and averaging up to 98% of their maximum heart per three minute round. Fighting is incredibly strenuous. Along with that and "All that's old is new again" in the fitness world, Borg's rate of perceived exertion (RPE) is making the rounds again. It's from the early 70's, and uses a number system of 6-20 and it's very subjective system based off of your perception of how your body feels. It's very difficult to use and that's why it pops up and dies off. Most people simply cannot accurately perceive how hard they are actual working, unless they are approaching failure. Most people are either at rest, in that vast space of not training as hard as they can, or training towards failure. We're talking about a test that could push subjects to the very physical limits of their hearts, and even if you asked them to take it down a notch they wouldn't realistically know where to stop. With the under 30 crowd it's not that big of a deal, the 45 and over crowd is playing with a stick of dynamite with a short fuse. Look at how amped up some officers get in SIMS training and that's without a physical stimulus.

Edited: here's one study on boxers https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3871409/

Then there's the risk of bone, joint, and muscle injuries. So also hire a physical therapist and a chiropractor, and probably some physical trainers. How many officers can you afford to put on short or long term disability to conduct a test?

I think you'd be much better off with a skills assessment in a controlled environment and a separate physical test. Pushing a heavy prowler in a parking lot is a good way to get someone's heart rate up, have them do some hard work and have a low injury risk. I doubt that any court would validate that as a test. I get that you will never be able to simulate fighting without fighting, and even the best training out there will only work as well as the trainee is willing to push himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM35Ft1FUSY

My main focus would be functional fitness, and I don't mean crossfit. Unless they do pistol squats, most officers can't do a reverse step up, they'll maybe make it three inches on the way down and collapse. That's a big deal for a patrol officer that's using a similar movement pattern getting in and out of his squad car/suv 20 times a day. He's not using his hamstrings or glutes, and his knees and lower back are taking a beating. 20 bad reps down, 20 bad reps up, 200-250 working days a year, year to year. It's a recipe for chronic injury. Pushups, done with correct form with the abs and glutes will be engaged and a slight posterior pelvic tilt are a great exercise. Most people will use their hip flexors and spinal erectors to hold their core. It's a dysfunctional motor pattern, akin to not being able to walk and chew bubble gum. If every time you walked and chewed bubble gun, you bit your tongue, and you walked all the time, no one is going to be surprised when your tongue looks like a waffle. We shouldn't be surprised that an officer that control his core while doing a pushup usually won't have the ability to maintain a neutral pelvis position while walking around and end up with chronic back, hip and knee problems. Some mickey mouse PT test isn't a panacea that's going to cure the physical ailments of police work, but some of that basic stuff can help stave off chronic injuries, loss of productivity, and most importantly give officers the chance to avoid some of the physical conditions that affect quality of life during and post career.



I never said that pushups would stop someone from taking a beating, you're living in a fantasy world if you think someone that doesn't have the baseline physical fitness to do some push ups has a remote chance in a fight. I didn't realize I wrote what my officer safety plan was, but thanks for letting me know how fucked I am. I must have missed the part where I wrote about retiring out officers too. Thank you for deep insight into what I wasn't thinking.

We're talking about the OP, which included retiring investigators for failure to perform PT standards, not just your post.

[BehindBlueI's]

So, final thought on the matter. My department does not have ongoing PT tests after the academy. To the best of my knowledge, we never have. Yet somehow we get the job done. We are also an "old" department. We have historically hired people later in life rather than earlier, older rookies equates to older officers, and all that goes along with being...older. There is more to this job than fighting, and even with the constant conflation of some basic PT standard equating to a DT standard, and eliminating otherwise good officers for failure to perform a pulled-out-of-the-brass'-ass PT standard is short sighted at best. Yes, I know I could have a knock-down-drag-out tomorrow. I'm taking SouthNarc's ECQC this fall, and expect to get my ass handed to me repeatedly. I get it. I also know I've not been in a physical struggle since becoming a detective. I've been in a shooting, I've talked some guys down, but not once have I went hands on with someone. No detective in my office has in the 5 years I've been in that office. We are dealing exclusively with robbery and murder (or other shooting/stabbing/etc) suspects. It's ok to be a 60 year old woman in our office, because we don't rely on a 60 year old woman's fighting ability to keep her safe.

So, yes, you can make a PT test specific to patrol. Then people who can't pass get shuffled into admin or investigation slots they really aren't qualified for just to save their careers, bypassing those who actually deserved it.

We've got some fat asses and some people who can't jump a fence. There's always a trade off. However I'll take a few loads over the loss of experience, and both our brass and our FOP has felt the same. Especially today when getting qualified applicants to apply and stay is tough enough as it is. I'm all for hiring fighters and studs. But be reasonable, this job breaks us down over the years. Especially if you're in a violent and heavy call volume beat. If we could put old cop brains in young cop bodies, we'd have some super fucking cops. I could still pass the applicant PT test except probably the sprint, and I'm still on special services, so don't get the idea I'm just bitching to bitch or that I couldn't pass. I can today. 10 years from now...who knows? It's just fucking stupid to force someone who's apparently been doing the job to satisfaction for 24 years into the street because push-ups.

[Drang]

It seems to me that the obvious retort to "(The) Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women" would be "In order to prove that, you have to prove we deliberate set out to devise a PFT that few if any women could pass."

Maybe in my next life I'll be reincarnated into a rational world.

[blues]

It seems to me that the obvious retort to "(The) Police Fitness Test Discriminated Against Women" would be "In order to prove that, you have to prove we deliberate set out to devise a PFT that few if any women could pass."

Maybe in my next life I'll be reincarnated into a rational world.

Someone will always be unhappy with any test...physical, written, what have you.

When I took the NYPD entrance exam in the mid to late 70's it was laughably easy except for the last part which was where you had to memorize a crime scene and then several minutes later answer questions regarding the clothing, appearance and weapons of those portrayed in the image.

Otherwise the test was very easy, (like "if the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the three" easy imho), and I got 100% which is no reflection on my brilliance.

The test was challenged for being culturally / racially biased and unfair to certain groups. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why based upon the questions I had to answer...and the odd thing was that Hispanic candidates who spoke English as a second language did far better on the test than the group(s) that brought the lawsuit. Go figure.

The test was thrown out. And, interestingly enough, many otherwise qualified candidates who did well on the test, (but did not have relatives on the force), were found to have various mysterious "medical" problems to ensure that slots were open to those who did not fare as well on the exam.

And so it goes.

(PS: During this period, it was my own uncle, an anti-crime officer in Brooklyn who recommended that I get on with the feds as it was less political. I found out over the years that may not have been entirely true.)

[GardoneVT]

In private companies it's not unusual for firms to target tenured staff for "early dismissal", since older folks on the verge of retirement represent a potential cost drain to the company via pensions and benefit claims.

Considering the Colorado PT test only applied to tenured employees and it was a single step to being canned ( even the military wasn't that strict during a RIF cycle) , I get the sense the test was more "pension reduction tool" and less "physical fitness evaluation metric".

[blues]

In private companies it's not unusual for firms to target tenured staff for "early dismissal", since older folks on the verge of retirement represent a potential cost drain to the company via pensions and benefit claims.

Considering the Colorado PT test only applied to tenured employees and it was a single step to being canned ( even the military wasn't that strict during a RIF cycle) , I get the sense the test was more "pension reduction tool" and less "physical fitness evaluation metric".

It's sad that we have to view the world through such jaundice colored glasses but I think you may have a valid point.

[Duelist]

In private companies it's not unusual for firms to target tenured staff for "early dismissal", since older folks on the verge of retirement represent a potential cost drain to the company via pensions and benefit claims.

Considering the Colorado PT test only applied to tenured employees and it was a single step to being canned ( even the military wasn't that strict during a RIF cycle) , I get the sense the test was more "pension reduction tool" and less "physical fitness evaluation metric".

Sounds like a lawsuit.

[TAZ]

Sounds like a lawsuit.

Everything is law suit material. Question is what can you prove in a court of law.

Lots of age discrimination suits happen across the country. Wonder how many actually get somewhere.

Sad but true.

[rjohnson4405]

I know a guy who was told to train a new graduate. Did so, and was fired to be replaced by the new grad. He was 60+.

Accepted nothing (rule number one) on the way out, got a lawyer, and took very little effort to settle for ~30% of his yearly salary. Probably could've gotten more the but the lawyer thought costs would cut into and he wouldn't do any better.

[blues]

I know a guy who was told to train a new graduate. Did so, and was fired to be replaced by the new grad. He was 60+.

Accepted nothing (rule number one) on the way out, got a lawyer, and took very little effort to settle for ~30% of his yearly salary. Probably could've gotten more the but the lawyer thought costs would cut into and he wouldn't do any better.

That's some dirty pool right there.

[punkey71]

Firefighting went through this years ago when women complained that things like bench presses were being used as fitness tests for employment. One result was the CPAT:

The Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT):
The CPAT is a timed course consisting of eight events that simulate actual actions firefighters are expected to perform. The events must be performed safely and correctly within set guidelines. The CPAT is a pass/fail test, and the entire course must be completed within 10 minutes and 20 seconds or the test is failed.

During the test, the candidate will progress through the course of events wearing a 50 lb. vest, which is meant to simulate a firefighters self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA), turnouts and gear. The eight events consist of:

Stair Climb (an additional 25 lbs (2 -12.5 lb weights) are added to the candidates shoulders for this event to simulate carrying hose packs up the stairs of a high-rise building.
Hose Drag
Equipment Carry
Ladder Raise and Extension
Forcible Entry
Search
Rescue
Ceiling Breech and Pull


It's hard to argue that it's not relevant to the work requirements.

While the work is generally relevant, the time is entire too long. Our yearly Work Performance Evaluation is similar but it's done with gear and SCBA. A box step is used as opposed to a stairmill. The time is the same.

You can WALK it at a leisurely pace and finish it in 6 - 6 1/2 minutes. I'm 46. The younger guys finish well under 5 minutes when they hustle.

Some folks literally sit down for 2-3 minutes in order to rest enough to finish.

The mile run produced and retained more fit people of both sexes. The fitness of men has decreased by lowering the standards to accommodate targeted employee demographics.

Sadly many people only work to achieve the minimum standard.

I really don't see it ever changing. As the older guys retire the newer folks will only know the lower standards and see them as the new norm and acceptable.

It's not an accident.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Drang]

As the older guys retire the newer folks will only know the lower standards and see them as the new norm and acceptable.
This is the rationale behind age-based standards. You can easily, and accurately, argue that the job requirements don't change with age, but since our abilities do, having standards that recognize that fact continues to hold younger personnel to a more realistic standard of excellence...or minimum competence.

As someone in another thread pointed out, lots of things have changed in the Army since I retired, but at that time both the "passing" and "maxing" standards on the APFT changed with age. My understanding is that the passing scores on the Marines PT test went down, but the max scores did not. (Or maybe it was the other way around? It's been a long time...)

According to this article (https://www.verywell.com/army-physical-fitness-and-combat-readiness-tests-3120265) it looks like the Army is finally implementing changes to the PT test they first started talking about ten years or more ago, including having the "Combat Fitness Test" as well as a "PT Test."

FWIW -- which is nothing -- my opinion is that having two tests is stupid. I'll head down to the Legion Hall now to perch on a bar stool and bitch about how easy these young punks have it thee days...

[luckyman]

I know a guy who was told to train a new graduate. Did so, and was fired to be replaced by the new grad. He was 60+.

Accepted nothing (rule number one) on the way out, got a lawyer, and took very little effort to settle for ~30% of his yearly salary. Probably could've gotten more the but the lawyer thought costs would cut into and he wouldn't do any better.

4 months' wages ain't so much when you're 60 and looking for a job.

This is one good thing about the concept of company matching contributions to 401k (and whatever the government equivalent is ) plans. That's already sunk cost and no further pressure on the company bottom line.