DA/SA EDC

[bigslim]

Looking for pros, cons, and opinions on a new DA/SA system.

I, like most others are looking for a roughly G19 size package. That's my current EDC so I am using that as a reference.

I picked up a SP2022 and set it up like my G19 with Trij HD’s, X300U, and Bravo Concealment holster. I was hoping that this would be the answer but I started another thread describing an issue I have with my support hand placement riding the decocker and giving me a dead trigger. I could modify the decock lever and try to come up with a compromise but I would like to explore other hardware options first.

I like the idea of the PX4 CC but my issue with it is the inability to run a light on that short rail. Maybe I am overemphasizing the importance of a WML but that is the deal killer for me.

I have shot a P226 in .40 which I was not a fan of and I do ride the slide release preventing lock back but that's easily fix by sliding my thumb over. There isn't a local range that rents a 226 or 229 in 9mm for me to tryout but the ethos of both feel good to me.

I have handled and shot a CZ P-01 and P-07 Duty. My only real issue with the P-07 is it seems like the trigger break is quite far back towards the frame. I had an issue with getting the trigger to break without sinking my finger up to almost the second knuckle. I have an idea that the interchangeable back straps will fix this.

So what does the knowledge base have for pros and cons on the P229 and P-07 other than price. Maybe I am missing another viable option but that where my decision lies as of now.

Mike


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[GardoneVT]

HK p2000 or P30. Guns are cheap, it's the ammo and mag cost that kills ya.

[MSparks909]

Why is a WML such a priority? Just curious.

[bigslim]

HK p2000 or P30. Guns are cheap, it's the ammo and mag cost that kills ya.

Based purely on TLG's opinion of the P30 trigger I discounted it. Never gave any thought to the P2000. HK is running a deal on P30 mags right now, although I'm not sure that would be enough to sway me in that direction.


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[Cory]

M9A1 compact is an option if polymer isn't a must. It's essentially a 92 compact with rail.

-Cory

[bigslim]

Why is a WML such a priority? Just curious.

Target ID. Shooting a pistol well is difficult enough and if I have to choose between shooting freestyle with illumination on the gun or one handed with a light in the other, I like option 1.


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[John Hearne]

When I'm in uniform, I carry a WML religiously and couldn't imagine not having one. The ability to shoot with both hands on the pistol while illuminating a threat is invaluable. Off-duty, I just don't see the need. If its dark enough that you need a light, the bad guy can't find you either. The most common shooting scene - parking lots - are going to be illuminated by code requirement and have more than enough light to shoot well without a WML.

[HCountyGuy]

FWIW I've developed an issue with the base of my support thumb contacting the decocker on my P229. However, since the decocker on the P229 doesn't engage until farther along than the SP2022, it may not be a problem. If nothing else, modifying one's grip helps.

[MSparks909]

I personally am not a fan of flagging someone with a WML to "positively ID" them. That's where a handheld comes in. You can also easily shoot a pistol freestyle with a handheld...

But if you've made up your mind then I'd recommend either the PX4 CC, P2000 and P30 (in that order). The P30 has the same grip length as a G17 so if you're considering that you might as well consider a full size PX4. I run an Inforce APL on one of my full size PX4s and it fits and works great.

The Streamlight TLR-3 will fit on the PX4 Compact's short rail length. It will also fit on the P2000. Unsure if my Inforce APL will fit on a P2000 as I sold mine a few months back. I wouldn't recommend the Surefire XC1. Poor switch design IMO.

[JTQ]

Off-duty, I just don't see the need. If its dark enough that you need a light, the bad guy can't find you either. The most common shooting scene - parking lots - are going to be illuminated by code requirement and have more than enough light to shoot well without a WML.
I agree with John Hearne. Tom Givens has a lot of stuff on this on the forum and in his other writings. The current American Handgunner (Sep/Oct 2017) has an article where he comments on the 70+ defensive shootings his students have been involved in that none used a flashlight, and none felt they needed one.

Tucker Gun Leather has a FAQ comment http://www.tuckergunleather.com/faq/


Q. Does Tucker recommend carrying a defensive pistol with a light attached to an accessory rail?

A. Tucker says, "If you're on a SWAT team, go for it. If not, your pistol is a quick-response tool for a sudden and extreme self-defense situation. If you have a light on the gun, you may find it distracting enough to slow dowin your response."

[vaglocker]

In the same boat with switching to DA/SA. I have ordered a CZ P01 that is currently being built by Cajun Gun Works with their pro package. In the meantime I've picked up the P07 that will double as my backup and training gun. I've had P01's in the past but am really liking the P07 so far as well.

[bigslim]

Very good points on lights. Thank you all for poking holes in my thought process. I was of the mindset that positive ID required a light no matter what.

I also never considered the use of a light could cause issues with decision making and actually running the gun.


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[wmu12071]

I have been looking for the Glock 19 sized DA/SA for some time now. Here is my opinion as a high drag/low speed civi.

I have a P2000 V3. I struggle with the trigger. I know it is "good enough" but it is hard to choose the P2000 when the 229 is right next to it and shoots better for me.

I have a P07 and I like it a lot. I shoot it close to as well as my 229 but the slide release hammers the first joint on my off hand to the point that my thumb goes numb.

My 229 is easily my most carried DA/SA. I bounce back and forth every few months between the G19 and the 229. My biggest complain is the grips. The E2 grips eat my work shirts. The original so grips for the 229 bother my strong hand thumb. I need to buy a set of hogue extremes. They seem to be the closest to the Legion grips that seem to work with for me based on my dad's example.

[MSparks909]

I've read excellent things about the Cajunized CZ pistols; I've never shot a polymer framed CZ but as a huge fan of DA/SA pistols in general, I might end up with a Cajunized P07 or two in the future to compliment my Shadow 2.

[jwperry]

Maybe it was the PX4s that I handled, but I felt it was the same size as my P229 & P30; I found the PX4 CC to be similar sized to a P2000SK or P224. Granted, it was only once and they were a friend's guns so maybe my memory is mistaken.

For what you're looking for, the P229 would fit the bill. Maybe trying reduced P224/Legion controls would help reduce the unintentional decock risk. I also found that with my P229/P226 guns, when I switched to the E2 grip it pushed my primary grip hand further down the pistol, so when my grip mated together it never impacted the controls at all. With my current G10 grips, I have occasionally hit the decocker on my P226, so I'm familiar with the issue you're having. I have Mechanix Gloves sized small hands.

I'd look at the P2000 before the P30 if you want a delivered-from-the-factory pistol that you won't have controls interface issues with. When I shot the P30 primarily, I was always hitting the slide release accidentally.

I've never shot or handled any of the new CZ pistols, my only CZ experience is with a surplus CZ75B.

[OPSPEC]

I am a pretty big fan of SIG P Series pistols, especially the Legion guns. I don't buy into the whole Legion marketing thing, the coins, the holsters, etc. But, what I do think is that the Legion puts out a better product for what I consider necessary in a street gun. Almost to the point that the only thing I have observed that a Legion needed to make it hyper usable was a quick polish of the mainspring strut and the installation of a 17 pound mainspring.

At the end of the day, there are a lot of choices out there and you'll be hard pressed to go wrong with any of them.

[walker2713]

I have a P2000 V3. I struggle with the trigger. I know it is "good enough" but it is hard to choose the P2000 when the 229 is right next to it and shoots better for me.

I had a similar experience with the V3.....went to the LEM V2 and had the V1 springs installed. It's an excellent carry trigger, and I have the same setup in 9 and 40.

George

[gtmtnbiker98]

Hey BigSlim, if you are interested, you can try out any one of my SIG pistols if you'd like. I have the MK25 and Legion in the P226. I also have the P229 if you are married to the size of the G19. Let me know, you know how to reach me.

[wmu12071]

I had a similar experience with the V3.....went to the LEM V2 and had the V1 springs installed. It's an excellent carry trigger, and I have the same setup in 9 and 40.

George

So you have better luck with the LEM? I have heard a lot of reports that the LEM is way harder to shoot well.

[MSparks909]

I like my P229 Legion but the weight is more noticeable over my G19/PX4C/P30. Shoots fine and I haven't had any issues with Sig's QC. The finish on both my 226 and 229 Legion leaves much to be desired...if you like "battle worn" finishes and want to look Operator, then pick up a Legion and a kydex holster. You'll be halfway to that look after the first range trip. The Sig "P" series in general are my third favorite DA/SA guns. First place out of the DA/SA guns I own and shoot is the PX4 series, next is the B92 series, followed by the Sig P guns.

The P2000 was just "meh" to me. I got mine on sale, but I honestly can't find any reason why they command the prices they do. Not impressed and hence why I sold both of mine. I spent about a year and a half searching for my ideal "G19 sized DA/SA." Spent a LOT of money in guns and support gear and thankfully I've finally narrowed it down. If HK would improve the triggers (smooth out the DA pull and have a shorter reset) then those would move up in my eyes. The P30 is no doubt a bombproof & reliable handgun, but I think for its size it should have 17/18 round magazines standard. I've got a USP Match hammer spring in my P30 and it pulls right at 10 pounds in DA and the trigger stacks noticeably in the last 1/3 of trigger travel. If I keep it I'll be sending it off for a full trigger job but I might end up letting it go to put the money towards ~4,000 rounds of ammo...ALL of my Berettas and Sig's have DA pulls in the 7-8# range. My "worst" gun has an 8# 12oz. DA and that one will be getting a trigger job shortly.

[okie john]

Based purely on TLG's opinion of the P30 trigger I discounted it. Never gave any thought to the P2000. HK is running a deal on P30 mags right now, although I'm not sure that would be enough to sway me in that direction.

I'd definitely give the entire HK line a try. TLG articulated his opinions better than most of us are capable of doing, but they're still just opinions. You may find that your experience--and your opinion--differ markedly from his. In the end, YOUR opinion matters more than anyone else's.


Okie John

[Oukaapie]

I have a P229 that I love. Tried the P224 and it was like kissing a midget. Cute looking but made me feel weird inside. P30SK also nice but the trigger requires concentration.

If I lost them both in an unfortunate smelting accident I would not hesitate to get the Beretta PX4 CC. Only reason I don't have one is that I carry a P320C more often than not and can't justify another DA/SA. I shot Dagga Boys and it is friggin SWEET! It seems similar in size to P30SK but shoots better.

[GJM]

Based purely on TLG's opinion of the P30 trigger I discounted it. Never gave any thought to the P2000. HK is running a deal on P30 mags right now, although I'm not sure that would be enough to sway me in that direction.


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I don't recall Todd saying anything negative about the P30 trigger, and I have heard him say the P30 was his single favorite handgun.

[Jared]

My EDC has been an M9A1 Compact for quite a while, and I'm considering going PX4 Compact. Both have been really great guns for me. I had a P2000 for a while that was perfectly good too, but never carried it.

I'm not a real big fan of the classic SIG P-Series as a whole, but I do love the P239.

[walker2713]

I haven't found that to be true...for me, and it definitely made an improvement of the V1 over the V2. Maybe someone on the forum in your area will chime in and let you try one. If you're ever in the northeast Louisiana area, you can shoot mine.:cool:

[Gun Mutt]

I've become a big fan of the CZ PO7 after shooting one, in fact, I've got one at my FFL just waiting for me to get time to pick it up...and I'm a dedicated G19 guy. The sample I shot was OEM save for a little judicious trigger polishing by the owner and I cleared the plate rack faster than I'd done in my previous 5 runs with my G19. I've read of people who disliked the break point on their trigger installing a larger CGW pin and being quite happy with the results.

[bigslim]

I'm going to have to get to the LGS and compare the weights of the PX4 and the P229. Those two are my first and second choice. I think the Sig would be more versatile but I am concerned about the weight.


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[bigslim]

I don't recall Todd saying anything negative about the P30 trigger, and I have heard him say the P30 was his single favorite handgun.

I thought I remember reading in His long term test gun reports that he didn't care for the DA/SA trigger of the P30.


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[HCountyGuy]

I rotate between my P229 and G19 periodically, just depends what I feel like carrying. I suspect my support thumb rubbing the decocker may be somewhat to blame in returning to E2 grips after selling my Hogue Aluminums. I plan to get some Hogue Extreme G10s sometime soon, the E2s seem to be losing their texture and are too slim.

I've mulled over ditching my current P229 to acquire a P229C, which is just a marriage of the P229 & P224. Might be something to check out, but finding a holster may be somewhat of a PITA.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I thought I remember reading in His long term test gun reports that he didn't care for the DA/SA trigger of the P30.


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He didn't that's why he ran a modified LEM also known as the LEM "Todd Green Special" which has the standard V2 TRS installed on an otherwise standard light (V1) LEM.

[Robert Mitchum]

HK P30 9mm with cheap range ammo.
25 Yards 6 rounds.
3 Rounds in (DA) 3 Rounds( SA)
Did this yesterday at the range with stock sights.
There is a 3x5 card marked with black lines.
The one miss was in SA.
This is one fantastic pistol for EDC ..once you master the trigger
18039

[Default.mp3]

Any reason you specifically want DA/SA? I was thinking of the USP Compact, which would allow you to relatively easily swap between a variety of trigger types, including SAO, with less fuss than the P-series, while still allowing you to retain a hammer for reholstering purposes.

[rjohnson4405]

My current everything gun is a Sig 225A1. It's been great and is close to a Glock 19 in size, maybe a touch thinner in the grip

[bigslim]

Any reason you specifically want DA/SA? I was thinking of the USP Compact, which would allow you to relatively easily swap between a variety of trigger types, including SAO, with less fuss than the P-series, while still allowing you to retain a hammer for reholstering purposes.

The long first DA pull that allows one to get off the trigger if the situation changes, a nice lite SA pull for follow up shots, hammer to thumb while re holstering.

Mike

[KG]

I'm going to have to get to the LGS and compare the weights of the PX4 and the P229. Those two are my first and second choice. I think the Sig would be more versatile but I am concerned about the weight.

I don't have the P229 weight in my notes, but the M11-A1 with empty mag was 29.7 oz. I would guess the P229 is heavier.
PX4 CC with Talon grip tape and Ernest's spurless hammer was 27.05 oz.
Glock 19 - 24.15
P2000 - 25.45
Beretta 92 Compact (no rail) - 32.6.

In my opinion, the PX4 CC has a much lighter, smaller feel than the M11-A1 regardless of what the scale says. However, as others have said, the PX4 CC seems to shoot like a bigger pistol. Although the Beretta 92 Compact is the heaviest, it is the easiest for me to conceal AIWB.

[TGS]

Most of my carry experience is with the P2000 and P229 (legacy slide). I've carried other guns as well, but 98% of my carry has been with those two.

IMO, the SIG is fantastic for shooting, not so great for carrying. It's just chunky (especially so for a "compact" class handgun), and definitely at the limit for comfort and concealment wise for me. If we were sticking with the SIG at my agency and I was restricted to the list we have, honestly I'd probably invest in a P239 for off duty carry. I've wondered if the slimmer profile slides on the P228, P226 and newer P229s would make a difference.

The P2000 is awesome as a carry weapon. Very svelte size and profile. I had the P239 and P2000 at the same time and got rid of the P239 as the P2000 was virtually the same profile but with more capacity. Trigger sucks and it's much easier to throw a shit with compared to the SIG. It simply takes a lot more mental energy for me to run it fast on small targets. With that being said, the best marksmanship I've ever accomplished was with the P2000 when I was shooting a lot more. The SIG is much more forgiving, and I wonder what I could have accomplished when I was shooting a case of ammo a month with the P229......

Specs only give you so much. Spec wise, there shouldn't be much difference between carrying these two guns. I still carry the P229 all day almost every day (if I'm in shorts and t-shirt I'll opt for my PM9), but I notice it more. Comparatively, I carried my P2000 with no gripes in any clothing.

[Alembic]

A vote for the USPc9 in DA/SA.

Mine started in DA/SA, then for less than $50 bucks I found the springs I wanted to make a TGS LEM, installed myself, now have a hammer, take up for getting on the trigger, and no safety.

It's easy to figure out and install "your" perfect trigger with the USP system. I did at my desk in an hour with YouTube, a puck, and a few punches.

Spring Chart http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/168700-spring-reference-chart-different-lem-variants.html

Instructions and video link. http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/188047-video-complete-lem-installation.html

Alt. version from another member. http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/40627-p2000-sk-uspc-lem-trigger-job-part-1-a.html

Fear not the trigger return spring install...

[GJM]

Based purely on TLG's opinion of the P30 trigger I discounted it. Never gave any thought to the P2000. HK is running a deal on P30 mags right now, although I'm not sure that would be enough to sway me in that direction.


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His preference was LEM>Sig DA/SA>HK DA/SA.


I thought I remember reading in His long term test gun reports that he didn't care for the DA/SA trigger of the P30.


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[bigslim]

The two thoughts that continue to run rampant in my head are these.

1. When Todd was able to start shooting again he chose a P229. He could have anything he wanted and he had very specific reasons for wanting and needing a DA/SA gun. He still chose Sig.

2. Mr. Langdon could build, buy, shoot whatever he wants to and he chooses Beretta. I know he chose the PX4 because it has the same manual of arms as the 92.

I don't have time or budget to attempt to figure this stuff out myself and this forum and Todd specifically have shaped my opinions on firearms. This forum is really the only reason I started looking at DA/SA guns in the first place. I have been looking at this from the perspective of one gun to rule them all and the discussion on WML has opened my eyes to the idea that the night stand gun can wear a light and the carry gun probably doesn't need one. The short rail on the PX4 was the only reason I dismissed it as a viable option.

I have taken on the task of trying to read the novella that is the PX4CC thread and get a better idea about what is most likely the better choice of pistol but I am keeping my mind open.

Mike

[Mjolnir]

He didn't that's why he ran a modified LEM also known as the LEM "Todd Green Special" which has the standard V2 TRS installed on an otherwise standard light (V1) LEM.

And I find that pistol/spring combo to be "the perfect" carry pistol.

I'm fast enough with it. By that I mean I can hit what I need to hit at the speed I would actually shoot at anything that needed shooting (0.25 to 0.3 second splits).

Yes, I'm faster with a striker or single action pistol (0.2 sec splits with solid hits).

I think we can get too carried away on split times. I'd like to see a study of how fast te trigger is pulled in a large sample of shootings and gunfights.


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[GJM]

And I find that pistol/spring combo to be "the perfect" carry pistol.

I'm fast enough with it. By that I mean I can hit what I need to hit at the speed I would actually shoot at anything that needed shooting (0.25 to 0.3 second splits).

Yes, I'm faster with a striker or single action pistol (0.2 sec splits with solid hits).

I think we can get too carried away on split times. I'd like to see a study of how fast te trigger is pulled in a large sample of shootings and gunfights.


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You may be confusing evaluation splits and shooting splits.

[Dagga Boy]

I have posted elsewhere, but in case you missed it on DA/SA.


DA/SA trigger systems.

A ton gets made of these and many discussions reach a massive level of stupid. Most people are aware by now that I address my working, daily carry personal protection handguns as a use of force tool, and not a shooting thing. If I am sport shooting.....I will look at things through that lens, but that is not how I look at this stuff anymore.

Here is what the DA/SA gets you from the use of force aspect. I teach threat evaluation and elimination through the S.E.E. principle I learned from a former Delta soldier named Gene Zink. See, Evaluate, Eliminate. This is different in many applications for how you perform each task and the time spent on each task depending on what you are doing and your capacity. Threat evaluation is vastly different for a soldier on the battlefield in open combat to an urban police officer in a populous urban area in a socialist utopia. For a citizen, it is different for a person in their own home versus while they are carrying a concealed firearm at a shopping mall. For some aspects of use of lethal force, spending a long time in the evaluation phase is a critical component on how you will survive the aftermath and the legal and ethical microscopic review of your actions after the shot breaks.

The benefit I saw of both carrying, shooting, reviewing others shootings, and hundreds of personal applications of force with a DA/SA pistol over a couple decades is they allow me to spend extra time in the evaluation phase, and actually still be evaluating into the elimination by lethal force phase. That DA trigger press is a long, smooth, rolling, build up to a shot, where a lot of rapid evaluation is still being done in a very compressed time frame and during a period after the decision to shoot has been made where your brain is doing some pretty amazing things with "time". Many like to treat all the trigger presses the same. I do not. Shot number one from the DA is my most important and the most difficult for two reasons. I have to focus on doing a multitude of things before that shot breaks as far as complex problem solving and that continues during the roll through the trigger action that the first shot will be. Once that problem solving is completed, evaluation completed, the intake of massive amounts of information completed visually, and the shot breaks.....now things change just like the trigger and I get a trigger that is now optimized for continued shooting which is only happening if a simple evaluation is still present..."is my threat still in my sights". At this point it is a continue to press issue. I do treat the triggers different and with different needs to the ease in which the shot is fired physically. The key to working these triggers to me is training a lot with dedication to shot number one and mastering the DA roll, and then the mastery of the transition from the first shot that is done with a momentum building roll to a shot, reset (flip or only to the reset point....I am a bit agnostic on this and sort of "do what works for you and your application and shooting style") in follow through and then a controlled short press to continue the process as needed. This needs to be trained to a sub conscious level of mastery. This tends to be the failure of these systems. The guns were often chosen to be hard to shoot negligently, and then the training to shoot well never performed by many police and military organizations,

The big issue with these guns is post shooting. From a purely lethal force use tool standpoint, Decocking HAS to be trained to a totally sub conscious remote control level-period. I implemented a protocol with my folks where decocking was done every time the pistol was taken off the engaged target and back to a Ready position, whether you fired or not......every time. I can attest personally to how well training this to the sub conscious mastery level works. Post shooting of an armed suspect who immediately dropped to a single centered chest shot, I made a conscious decision to de cock my pistol. It was already de cocked, which I did with no recollection of doing that task. That is what repetitive training is all about. Decocking every time the gun comes back to any Ready position off target is a freebie for getting a lot of repetitions in and will make the user of a DA/SA pistol far more competent when used as a working force tool. Again...how people want to run the things as a sport shooting gun is irrelevant to me, and the methodology will likely be very different when dealing with multiple un-assessed targets with no real consequence for getting things wrong. Different venue, different training and priorities.

The current popularity of front appendix carry, hammer guns are a good thing. Hammer guns with long movement triggers are a good thing. Many think front appendix carry was invented a couple years ago....pure fiction from the internet. Cops with snub nose Revolvers carried his way for a very long time. Due to a bad shoulder injury as a probationary police officer in 1988, I was forced to carry in front of my hips from that point on to be able to draw without pain. I carried both my off duty and back up guns in front appendix as a norm. Hammer fired, double action guns (both Revolvers and semi auto's) give the end user a lot more screw up room for this type of carry. At this stage in my life, I will not carry a striker fired pistol front appendix (and I spent a lot of years doing that with a Glock). Simply an acceptance of a stage in life where I don't want to depend on being 100% switched on every waking minute of the day. I would rather have that extra measure of control of the gun and the trigger and underestimate my skills than over estimate them.

Overall, I like the DA/SA as a means of getting two trigger actions that are each optimized for where the individual attributes are needed in the application of lethal force process. A lot of movement and feed back in the time frame of deciding to shoot and the shot going off, and then less movement and feedback when the evaluation process is far simpler and less intensive. The Post shooting de-cocking process is a negative that can be overcome with repetitive training and good habit development.


As far as the LEM.....Google the "Why I like the LEM" on Todd's old blog. I wrote that as well, and still stand by it. I find the DA/SA beneficial to dedicated shooters. The LEM is what I like for an issue LE type gun.

Weapon Mounted Lights. Spent almost 20 years working nights as a cop who never had a desk job. Been in multiple low light shootings and present at many more. I never had a weapon mounted light on a patrol gun. My Helo gun did and my SWAT guns, but never the patrol or regular stuff. Off duty and concealment guns ran clean as well. My bedside gun does have one.....and a flashlight is what is actually the first thing I grab. My biggest thing with the WML's on concealment guns is "what are you looking for?" Crooks intent on robbing and attacking you.....need to see you. If you want to see them before they get in range to come out of nowhere, a hand held lint is the correct answer. The weapon mounted lights add bulk to guns where it doesn't need to be, makes holster choices much harder and is juice just not worth the squeeze in a daily carry gun.

[fixer]

Darryl thanks for the great post.

[JM Campbell]

Dagga Boy
Good to see ya posting and the repost of the DA/SA info. Hope to see Wayne and you soon in Dallas for another class.


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[Sal Picante]

Where to start?



A ton gets made of these and many discussions reach a massive level of stupid.


Totally agree... Moving on...




Many like to treat all the trigger presses the same. I do not.


I disagree, mainly, because I just sorta slap a lot of the time... However...



Shot number one from the DA is my most important .... This needs to be trained to a sub conscious level of mastery. This tends to be the failure of these systems. The guns were often chosen to be hard to shoot negligently, and then the training to shoot well never performed by many police and military organizations,


This I totally, totally agree with this...



The big issue with these guns is post shooting. From a purely lethal force use tool standpoint, Decocking HAS to be trained to a totally sub conscious remote control level-period. I implemented a protocol with my folks where decocking was done every time the pistol was taken off the engaged target and back to a Ready position, whether you fired or not......every time. I can attest personally to how well training this to the sub conscious mastery level works. Post shooting of an armed suspect who immediately dropped to a single centered chest shot, I made a conscious decision to de cock my pistol. It was already de cocked, which I did with no recollection of doing that task. That is what repetitive training is all about. Decocking every time the gun comes back to any Ready position off target is a freebie for getting a lot of repetitions in and will make the user of a DA/SA pistol far more competent when used as a working force tool. Again...how people want to run the things as a sport shooting gun is irrelevant to me, and the methodology will likely be very different when dealing with multiple un-assessed targets with no real consequence for getting things wrong. Different venue, different training and priorities.


What is interesting is that after doing a lot of 1-2 shot drills over the past months, I've developed the habit of decocking a lot while dismounting the gun. This isn't happening while I moving and reloading or when working a barricade, mainly because I think, subconsciously that the engagement is still going, but it happens with regularly enough during long movement, negotiating doors, etc.

It used to freak me out a bit, but now, I just keep trucking. Happened last night during an IDPA match, actually: Long movement to a "hallway" and I decocked. Personally, I don't think this hurts/helps/makes any difference, which goes back to first point you made about hysteria...




The current popularity of front appendix carry, hammer guns are a good thing.
...
The Post shooting de-cocking process is a negative that can be overcome with repetitive training and good habit development.


This... So much this...



I find the DA/SA beneficial to dedicated shooters.


Sadly, I think this is a minority, even in a country awash with weapons...

[MSparks909]

I have posted elsewhere, but in case you missed it on DA/SA.


DA/SA trigger systems.

A ton gets made of these and many discussions reach a massive level of stupid. Most people are aware by now that I address my working, daily carry personal protection handguns as a use of force tool, and not a shooting thing. If I am sport shooting.....I will look at things through that lens, but that is not how I look at this stuff anymore.

Here is what the DA/SA gets you from the use of force aspect. I teach threat evaluation and elimination through the S.E.E. principle I learned from a former Delta soldier named Gene Zink. See, Evaluate, Eliminate. This is different in many applications for how you perform each task and the time spent on each task depending on what you are doing and your capacity. Threat evaluation is vastly different for a soldier on the battlefield in open combat to an urban police officer in a populous urban area in a socialist utopia. For a citizen, it is different for a person in their own home versus while they are carrying a concealed firearm at a shopping mall. For some aspects of use of lethal force, spending a long time in the evaluation phase is a critical component on how you will survive the aftermath and the legal and ethical microscopic review of your actions after the shot breaks.

The benefit I saw of both carrying, shooting, reviewing others shootings, and hundreds of personal applications of force with a DA/SA pistol over a couple decades is they allow me to spend extra time in the evaluation phase, and actually still be evaluating into the elimination by lethal force phase. That DA trigger press is a long, smooth, rolling, build up to a shot, where a lot of rapid evaluation is still being done in a very compressed time frame and during a period after the decision to shoot has been made where your brain is doing some pretty amazing things with "time". Many like to treat all the trigger presses the same. I do not. Shot number one from the DA is my most important and the most difficult for two reasons. I have to focus on doing a multitude of things before that shot breaks as far as complex problem solving and that continues during the roll through the trigger action that the first shot will be. Once that problem solving is completed, evaluation completed, the intake of massive amounts of information completed visually, and the shot breaks.....now things change just like the trigger and I get a trigger that is now optimized for continued shooting which is only happening if a simple evaluation is still present..."is my threat still in my sights". At this point it is a continue to press issue. I do treat the triggers different and with different needs to the ease in which the shot is fired physically. The key to working these triggers to me is training a lot with dedication to shot number one and mastering the DA roll, and then the mastery of the transition from the first shot that is done with a momentum building roll to a shot, reset (flip or only to the reset point....I am a bit agnostic on this and sort of "do what works for you and your application and shooting style") in follow through and then a controlled short press to continue the process as needed. This needs to be trained to a sub conscious level of mastery. This tends to be the failure of these systems. The guns were often chosen to be hard to shoot negligently, and then the training to shoot well never performed by many police and military organizations,

The big issue with these guns is post shooting. From a purely lethal force use tool standpoint, Decocking HAS to be trained to a totally sub conscious remote control level-period. I implemented a protocol with my folks where decocking was done every time the pistol was taken off the engaged target and back to a Ready position, whether you fired or not......every time. I can attest personally to how well training this to the sub conscious mastery level works. Post shooting of an armed suspect who immediately dropped to a single centered chest shot, I made a conscious decision to de cock my pistol. It was already de cocked, which I did with no recollection of doing that task. That is what repetitive training is all about. Decocking every time the gun comes back to any Ready position off target is a freebie for getting a lot of repetitions in and will make the user of a DA/SA pistol far more competent when used as a working force tool. Again...how people want to run the things as a sport shooting gun is irrelevant to me, and the methodology will likely be very different when dealing with multiple un-assessed targets with no real consequence for getting things wrong. Different venue, different training and priorities.

The current popularity of front appendix carry, hammer guns are a good thing. Hammer guns with long movement triggers are a good thing. Many think front appendix carry was invented a couple years ago....pure fiction from the internet. Cops with snub nose Revolvers carried his way for a very long time. Due to a bad shoulder injury as a probationary police officer in 1988, I was forced to carry in front of my hips from that point on to be able to draw without pain. I carried both my off duty and back up guns in front appendix as a norm. Hammer fired, double action guns (both Revolvers and semi auto's) give the end user a lot more screw up room for this type of carry. At this stage in my life, I will not carry a striker fired pistol front appendix (and I spent a lot of years doing that with a Glock). Simply an acceptance of a stage in life where I don't want to depend on being 100% switched on every waking minute of the day. I would rather have that extra measure of control of the gun and the trigger and underestimate my skills than over estimate them.

Overall, I like the DA/SA as a means of getting two trigger actions that are each optimized for where the individual attributes are needed in the application of lethal force process. A lot of movement and feed back in the time frame of deciding to shoot and the shot going off, and then less movement and feedback when the evaluation process is far simpler and less intensive. The Post shooting de-cocking process is a negative that can be overcome with repetitive training and good habit development.


As far as the LEM.....Google the "Why I like the LEM" on Todd's old blog. I wrote that as well, and still stand by it. I find the DA/SA beneficial to dedicated shooters. The LEM is what I like for an issue LE type gun.

Weapon Mounted Lights. Spent almost 20 years working nights as a cop who never had a desk job. Been in multiple low light shootings and present at many more. I never had a weapon mounted light on a patrol gun. My Helo gun did and my SWAT guns, but never the patrol or regular stuff. Off duty and concealment guns ran clean as well. My bedside gun does have one.....and a flashlight is what is actually the first thing I grab. My biggest thing with the WML's on concealment guns is "what are you looking for?" Crooks intent on robbing and attacking you.....need to see you. If you want to see them before they get in range to come out of nowhere, a hand held lint is the correct answer. The weapon mounted lights add bulk to guns where it doesn't need to be, makes holster choices much harder and is juice just not worth the squeeze in a daily carry gun.

Easier to just tag you in this rather than copy and paste it in a text. Enel

[GJM]

It really is this simple -- one trigger pull to keep from shooting yourself or the other guy by mistake, and another trigger pull optimized to intentionally shoot the other guy with.

[1986s4]

I won't quote the entire post but well said Dagga boy. I do like the LEM as well and for me it is the only option in HK pistols.

[RJ]

Threads like this are why I am a supporting member of this site.

Great stuff.

Damn, now I want a DA/SA pistol (again!).

Kidding. Sort of. :cool:

[Larry Sellers]

Threads like this are why I am a supporting member of this site.

Great stuff.

Damn, now I want a DA/SA pistol (again!).

Kidding. Sort of. :cool:Do. It.

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[Robinson]

There is a greater than zero chance I would be carrying a Beretta G model of some sort if I could only operate the slide-mounted lever.

[SSGN_Doc]

There is a greater than zero chance I would be carrying a Beretta G model of some sort if I could only operate the slide-mounted lever.

The time to operate the lever is when you can safely shift your grip. But you can operate it with support hand as well, while maintaining your primary grip in constant position.

[Robinson]

The time to operate the lever is when you can safely shift your grip. But you can operate it with support hand as well, while maintaining your primary grip in constant position.

Yes, when I owned a M9A1 I resorted to operating the lever with my support hand thumb. It worked okay except for one-handed shooting. With a 1911 I activate the safety as soon as I'm done pointing the gun at a target and would want to do the same with DA/SA. Having to shift it in my hand is not desirable from that standpoint.

Do other folks keep their DA/SA safeties off until holstering?

[GJM]

Ernest Langdon teaches a method of operating the Beretta 92 safety lever just like a thumb safety on a 1911.

[MSparks909]

Ernest Langdon teaches a method of operating the Beretta 92 safety lever just like a thumb safety on a 1911.

Yep. Ingenious method once you've seen it firsthand.

I may be an oddball but I use my strong hand thumb to decock. I do have pretty flexible thumbs though.

[wmu12071]

I agree a lot with Les and Dagga. For me the DA pull let me focus on the sights. I feel like the DA takes less mental power to work for me than a striker gun. I'm not trying to prep and pull or stage or worrying about the change in pressure at the "wall" in the trigger stroke.

[JTQ]

Do other folks keep their DA/SA safeties off until holstering?
Even on a safety equipped version (speaking of S&W autos), I only use it as a decocker. Decock, then safety off.

I'm a 1911 guy, but don't have any troubles with my 4506.

[dwcopple]

HK P2000 9mm V3 for me. Large backstrap, HK45C mag release, competition hammer spring. Orange front sight. Good to go. OWB leather. Just not an IWB guy. And no appendix carry (gasp!) for this guy either.

[bigslim]

Weapon Mounted Lights. Spent almost 20 years working nights as a cop who never had a desk job. Been in multiple low light shootings and present at many more. I never had a weapon mounted light on a patrol gun. My Helo gun did and my SWAT guns, but never the patrol or regular stuff. Off duty and concealment guns ran clean as well. My bedside gun does have one.....and a flashlight is what is actually the first thing I grab. My biggest thing with the WML's on concealment guns is "what are you looking for?" Crooks intent on robbing and attacking you.....need to see you. If you want to see them before they get in range to come out of nowhere, a hand held lint is the correct answer. The weapon mounted lights add bulk to guns where it doesn't need to be, makes holster choices much harder and is juice just not worth the squeeze in a daily carry gun.

Thanks for the outstanding input and your article on the LEM system was equally as good.

I am really enjoying the conversation on WML's, particularly because most of what I have heard and read has either been in favor of or no real detriment if you could pull it off. Holster selection is a PITA when having to account for a light, more so if you are wanting to run a pistol that is not high on the popularity list. I have been carrying a G19 with X300U and thats all I know. I don't think I have ever owned a holster that wouldn't support that light. Belay my last, I do have an Eidolon that I haven't used, working on my fitness so I can fit into it.

Mike

[Dagga Boy]

Thanks for the outstanding input and your article on the LEM system was equally as good.

I am really enjoying the conversation on WML's, particularly because most of what I have heard and read has either been in favor of or no real detriment if you could pull it off. Holster selection is a PITA when having to account for a light, more so if you are wanting to run a pistol that is not high on the popularity list. I have been carrying a G19 with X300U and thats all I know. I don't think I have ever owned a holster that wouldn't support that light. Belay my last, I do have an Eidolon that I haven't used, working on my fitness so I can fit into it.

Mike

When I carried a Glock with a weapon mounted light, it was a G34. If the gun is now as long as light, there is no need for a short slide. My dedicated light guns tend to be big. Currently, HK45C with a threaded barrel. I use non ultra X300's with my VP9. 1911's, and the Beretta 92's with the rail work well with the X300U.

[JSGlock34]

Ernest Langdon teaches a method of operating the Beretta 92 safety lever just like a thumb safety on a 1911.

Sure, but if you train to decock whenever you dismount the gun, the FS system is going to get tiresome fast.

[GJM]

Sure, but if you train to decock whenever you dismount the gun, the FS system is going to get tiresome fast.

My assumption is nobody would willingly pick an FS over a G model, but if that is all you have, or what is assigned to you, you can work with it.

[Bobcat]

It really is this simple -- one trigger pull to keep from shooting yourself or the other guy by mistake, and another trigger pull optimized to intentionally shoot the other guy with.

This is an excellent explanation of why I think DA/SA is the only way to go :)

[JPedersen]

There is a lot of great feedback here from guys who "outrank" me in so many aspects- but that being said. Here are some thoughts/ options to consider:

I love my PX4CC and it has replaced my glock 19. I think that the new crop of smaller lights from stream light, surefire, and inforce should solve your weapon mounted light hurdle - but I opt for a handheld as has already been mentioned.

The P30SK LEM was my pre- glock 19 carry ... and a great pistol but the PX4CC for me turned out to be easier for me to shoot correctly and accurately.

I have had a P228 that I let loose and kept a P239 SAS that I enjoy at the range.

Before the HK/ Glock / and PX4 I had a Beretta 92 compact that was too heavy for my tastes ... which led me to something I have not seen mentioned yet : 3rd Gen S&W.

There is a thread here on PF advising to just go ahead and shoot em if you got them. ( I think it is titled "how I learned to stop worrying and shoot my 3rd gen" or something like that.)

Anyway - the 3913, 3914, and 3953 have been awesome to me as well as the 6906 / 6946. They all have been reliable across ammo platforms for me - but POA / POI with lighter ammo can take some work. They are worth looking into if you are open to a somewhat less mainstream option ; knowing fully that they are not current production and the hurdles with that.

I think that PF has done such a great job substantiating the relevance and advantages of the DA / SA position.

YMMV / my $.2

Best of luck.


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[RJ]

The P30SK LEM was my pre- glock 19 carry ... and a great pistol but the PX4CC for me turned out to be easier for me to shoot correctly and accurately.



Could you expand a bit on this?

[JPedersen]

Could you expand a bit on this?

Definitely - I am still working through the potential causes / mechanical reasons but to expand:

The grip (with medium backstrap) places trigger immediately in front of the crease of my trigger finger which I believe is giving me a more consistent press to the rear and is my preference. Dry fire seems to show less deviation in the sights with this press. (That may also be a byproduct of more concentration during the double action press) The single action trigger pull is short, smooth, and crisp which has helped my accuracy in follow up shots and the DA has not hurt my accuracy.

The ergonomics of the PX4CC for me appear to have the sights in a more intuitive alignment (read flat, aligned, and where I seem to "want them to be") at the end of my press out , such that I do not feel as if I must exaggerate the forward tilt of my wrist compared to my Glock 19. (Judo and BJJ have jacked my elbows and wrists and 4x broken left arm may make this more a biomechanical issue for me than anything else. ) My grip seems to remain high on the gun and require less readjustment when moving between targets.

I do not get Glock knuckle. (which I know can be remedied by custom grip work along with some of the ergos.)

I have not shot the fast drill on a timer since mine has broken - but my training partner and I have raced side by side and I have been able to score solid hits at the same speed as him (which is usual) or slightly faster. (Once again , not quantified yet , simple anecdote / data point)

I have cleared the Dot Torture at 5yrds and am at an average score of 47 at 7 yards with the PX4CC and average 45 at 7yrds with the 19. ( I know I am not that good yet ...) I do shoot the Glock weak hand BETTER on the dot as opposed to the PX4CC- which is where I drop shots most often.

I find that I do not seem to snatch the trigger as much with the PX4CC as the Glock- which I guess is the byproduct of the SA FollowUp... maybe? The DA might slow me down and force me to focus more ... not sure. I need a new timer so I can get some measured splits. I am not fast ... but am working on it.

When just playing around on a dueling tree I have a better hit ratio / also with steel targets at distances of 10 yards and up to 25.



The other pluses for me are da/sa commonalities for me in a AIWB civilian CCW role. I use a Mastermind AIWB with Volund Gear Atlas belt. I hope this is helpful and realize that it is quite subjective. I have kept my Glock 19 w/ gadget and still shoot it just not as often as the PX4CC. I have 1250 reds through the PX4CC. The Gen 4 Glock 19 has 5000 rds through it.


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[RJ]

Definitely - I am still working through the potential causes / mechanical reasons but to expand...

< snip >



Thanks a bunch.

I recently concluded my P30SK LEM V1 was not working for me as a CCW because:reasons.

I've switched over to carrying my VP9. I carry near as dammit AIWB so I'm a bit twitchy of it's fully tensioned SFA near to my middle.

When I get back to FL this fall (we're on a long road trip, basically) I'm going to spend a few trips to the rental counter for some time with a variety of SA/DA pistols. The PX4 Compact is on the list, so I appreciate the insight. Thanks again.

[ffhounddog]

I have two P2000s set up in V3 (DA/SA) right now with the USP match spring 10-11 pounds and one with that I just bought waiting for me with a Wolff 10 pound spring and a Nickel Sear Spring waiting at my FFL. I like the V3 and I am still debating on trading out my last two LEMS a P30v1 and a P2000sk, for a P30v3 and P2000sk or P30sk v3 versions and add the Nickel Sear Spring and the USP Match Spring to them and call it good.

The PX4cc thread got me thinking maybe go Beretta because I really do not mind the slide mounted safety. I have used one since 1999 with a M9/92FS.

[Robinson]

This is an excellent explanation of why I think DA/SA is the only way to go :)

It's a good option but hardly the only option. For example, proper management of the 1911 safety provides similar benefit. If you're saying it's the only way to go for you, then that's certainly valid reasoning.

[Robinson]

Sure, but if you train to decock whenever you dismount the gun, the FS system is going to get tiresome fast.

That right there. I have never used a 92 series G model, though I came close once when there were two 92G-SDs at a LGS. The FS system was awkward to me and I have a feeling if I ever buy another Beretta it will have to be a G model. I've seen the method Mr. Langdon describes and it doesn't work for me the way I want to use the gun.

I'm perfectly comfortable admitting that the problem is me, not the design.

[Joe in PNG]

Thanks goodness for the G conversion.

[Cory]

Sure, but if you train to decock whenever you dismount the gun, the FS system is going to get tiresome fast.

Why? If you train to decock with dismount, you are going the same downward motion with both FS and G. FS just requires the smallest bit more movement, back up. I've never heard anyone comment that it's harder to decock and return up with an FS. I don't really see any difference in the motion my thumb makes FS or G. Perhaps we just have different hand sizes or holds?

The advantage to G that I always here touted is that A) you can't inadvertently put the weapon on safe with a slide rack, and B) you can't miss the safety on the draw stroke (or don't have to practice for it on draw stroke).

-Cory

[JSGlock34]

Why? If you train to decock with dismount, you are going the same downward motion with both FS and G. FS just requires the smallest bit more movement, back up. I've never heard anyone comment that it's harder to decock and return up with an FS. I don't really see any difference in the motion my thumb makes FS or G. Perhaps we just have different hand sizes or holds?

The advantage to G that I always here touted is that A) you can't inadvertently put the weapon on safe with a slide rack, and B) you can't miss the safety on the draw stroke (or don't have to practice for it on draw stroke).

-Cory

Personally I find the M9/FS safety a bit on the difficult side to deactivate. Ernie's 1911 technique works well for me if I'm deactivating the safety while I'm acquiring my grip and drawing from the holster, but I simply find it harder to defeat the safety from the ready position, and I need to shift my grip more to get a positive purchase with my thumb. I don't think the FS safety is particularly ergonomic for dynamic manipulation, especially for those with smaller hands. I also think the 'G' is offers a better option for those who prefer to use their support hand to manipulate the lever.

So to your 'A' and 'B' for advantages to the G, I'd add C) better suited for using with the 'dismount and decock' technique, but that's my opinion. My preference strongly runs to the 'G', but as GJM says, not everyone gets a choice in this matter. Thankfully, it's been years since the chain of command could have an opinion on how my Beretta is carried in the holster.

[Cory]

Personally I find the M9/FS safety a bit on the difficult side to deactivate. Ernie's 1911 technique works well for me if I'm deactivating the safety while I'm acquiring my grip and drawing from the holster, but I simply find it harder to defeat the safety from the ready position, and I need to shift my grip more to get a positive purchase with my thumb. I don't think the FS safety is particularly ergonomic for dynamic manipulation, especially for those with smaller hands. I also think the 'G' is offers a better option for those who prefer to use their support hand to manipulate the lever.

So to your 'A' and 'B' for advantages to the G, I'd add C) better suited for using with the 'dismount and decock' technique, but that's my opinion. My preference strongly runs to the 'G', but as GJM says, not everyone gets a choice in this matter. Thankfully, it's been years since the chain of command could have an opinion on how my Beretta is carried in the holster.

Hey, if it just doesn't fit you well or doesn't suit you I totally get that. For me, the G seems like something that's cool to have, but I don't find the FS to be a big disadvantage. The thumb forward/down swipe that Ernest has shown, seems to work well for me even if not getting my initial grip. Then again, I have never personally owned a 92 so I haven't pressure cooked that. Most of my experience was with USGI pistol that I had to carry safety on. When manipulating G and FS at gun stores, and a friends civilian model M9 (FS), I decocked and returned to fire with ease.

When I pick up the LTM9 I might swap an M9A3 safety in it, and see which works better for me the new G or the upswept FS. My current opinion of the G as a plus, but the FS not as a negative could definitely change over time.

-Cory

[holmes168]

Does anyone have experience Sig P225? I really liked how it felt in my hand.

[Treecop]

Another p239 fan here. By far, my favorite Classic Sig(and I've owned/been issued most of them). As an off duty carry, I don't get too preoccupied with capacity or wml capabilities.

The p239 carries well aiwb or 3-4:00 and shoots as well as its bigger brothers.


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[David S.]

I spent a couple years behind a P2340 and a couple more behind a P226. Fondled P229's a time or two. As much as I liked them, SIG's lever placement just isn't optimal for me. I could adjust my grip so my thumb wouldn't ride the lever, but couldn't do so consistently when under pressure. I have no reason to believe the P229 would have been any better for me. I also find them big and heavy compared their polymer competition. My SIGs were prone to surface rust too, which is more of an annoyance than a real issue. They're great guns. I shot them well, decocking was automatic after some early training. I enjoyed shooting them and carried the huge P226 just fine AIWB.

I decided to move on to HK LEM's based on Dagga Boy and ToddG's posts and suspect I'll stay here for a long time. It'll be interesting to see how I perform in a class or competition, but I've seen no performance loss on the range. (probably because I'm not very fast in the first place)

I find that for me, the full-size / subcompact combo works better than the mid-sized for everything system.

ETA: I don't see the need for a WML on a EDC gun (non LEO/mil). Dedicated home defense gun is a different story.

[Duelist]

Hey, if it just doesn't fit you well or doesn't suit you I totally get that. For me, the G seems like something that's cool to have, but I don't find the FS to be a big disadvantage. The thumb forward/down swipe that Ernest has shown, seems to work well for me even if not getting my initial grip. Then again, I have never personally owned a 92 so I haven't pressure cooked that. Most of my experience was with USGI pistol that I had to carry safety on. When manipulating G and FS at gun stores, and a friends civilian model M9 (FS), I decocked and returned to fire with ease.

When I pick up the LTM9 I might swap an M9A3 safety in it, and see which works better for me the new G or the upswept FS. My current opinion of the G as a plus, but the FS not as a negative could definitely change over time.

-Cory

I do not find the FS safety on my 92A1 a detriment or hinderance, now that I have learned how to use it. However, if I had smaller hands, more specifically a shorter thumb, I would probably find it anywhere from a major annoyance to a usability hurdle too difficult to get past. A young female NCO I knew, once upon a time, and went through an M9 course with, could neither run the decocker safety with her thumb, nor reach the trigger in DA mode. At all. Her draw stroke included thumb cocking the hammer. She practiced that move with a personally owned 92FS, and it was as smooth as could be.

I knew my hands are bigger than hers, and larger than many other people's, but it has only been in the last couple of years that I have realized just how much of a deficit/advantage that size disparity means for some tools and some tasks. I can run an M9/92 efficiently and effectively. My wife can't even reach the trigger face on one. She can reach the trigger face on a GLOCK 26, but only with the very tip of her finger. The GLOCK 42 is her Goldilocks gun: she can run the whole gun properly, where for me, i can run it, but it's puny. Not as bad as like a KT P32, but it's small.

[bigslim]

I have my concerns with the weight of the P series pistols, it seems to not be a big deal carrying AIWB but I am a 3:00 guy right now. And the controls do require some grip modification to allow for slide lock on the last round. With that being said I suppose changing platforms is going to require some grip modification anyway.

Dagga Boy makes a very compelling case for the LEM being the best street trigger in his article (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549). I haven't given much thought in the past to HK due to price and size. I imagine the paddle mag release is easy enough to get used to. I probably owe it to myself to go back and reread Todd's long term test log on the P30.

[GJM]

Darryl and I were discussing this just today.

The LEM is essentially a robust, long trigger travel version of a Glock. For non-enthusiast shooters, it may be the ideal combination of function with a good trade off between ease of shooting and non-ease of shooting (meaning avoiding unintentional shooting). The DA/SA involves more complexity, but in exchange offers a specialized separate threat management and shooting trigger. For an enthusiast, this is a reasonable trade off, and for non-enthusiasts, this may be an unreasonable burden. The striker offers essentially a full time SA trigger, at the cost of less reserve trigger safety.

If you keep these trade offs in mind, there will be less angst. I carry a LEM trigger in the summer, because I value the rest of the HK package. Guess what, my pure technical performance with the LEM is significantly worse than I can do with a good DA/SA or striker trigger. What I do not do is go to a course or competition, and bemoan my worse performance on timed drills. I have yet to find the perfect platform -- they all have their pluses and minuses.

[bigslim]

Darryl and I were discussing this just today.

The DA/SA involves more complexity, but in exchange offers a specialized separate threat management and shooting trigger. For an enthusiast, this is a reasonable trade off,



This is what is motivating me to change platforms. I fully understand the absolute and unwavering requirement to de-cock when you come off target and I feel that is a reasonable trade off.

[MSparks909]

This is what is motivating me to change platforms. I fully understand the absolute and unwavering requirement to de-cock when you come off target and I feel that is a reasonable trade off.

Sometimes you just gotta jump in with both feet. I'm glad I did.

[Robinson]

Does anyone have experience Sig P225? I really liked how it felt in my hand.

I owned one some years ago. It never malfunctioned and was a good shooting pistol. It would make a nice carry gun for a single stack. I didn't keep it because I prefer full size guns even for carry.

[Cory]

I do not find the FS safety on my 92A1 a detriment or hinderance, now that I have learned how to use it. However, if I had smaller hands, more specifically a shorter thumb, I would probably find it anywhere from a major annoyance to a usability hurdle too difficult to get past. A young female NCO I knew, once upon a time, and went through an M9 course with, could neither run the decocker safety with her thumb, nor reach the trigger in DA mode. At all. Her draw stroke included thumb cocking the hammer. She practiced that move with a personally owned 92FS, and it was as smooth as could be.

I knew my hands are bigger than hers, and larger than many other people's, but it has only been in the last couple of years that I have realized just how much of a deficit/advantage that size disparity means for some tools and some tasks. I can run an M9/92 efficiently and effectively. My wife can't even reach the trigger face on one. She can reach the trigger face on a GLOCK 26, but only with the very tip of her finger. The GLOCK 42 is her Goldilocks gun: she can run the whole gun properly, where for me, i can run it, but it's puny. Not as bad as like a KT P32, but it's small.

I was for a brief time a low level instructor for the M9 pistol, so I've certainly seen people who had hands that were simply too small for the gun. Too small to reach DA, the safety/decocker, slide stop, and magazine release, without total sacrifice of a shooting grip. I'm certain that the slide mounted safety of a 92 is an absolute detriment to some. I've seen one soldier who had thumbs too short to reach any control without shifting the pistol nearly 90* to his palm. He could reach the trigger fine, but had fat stubby thumbs that meant he usually had to right face keeping muzzle down range to do any manipulations.

For most people like that, FS or G is irrelevant. It's simply the wrong pistol for them. Yeah, hand size and finger reach/ distance to controls is important when selecting a pistol. I like to be able to reach everything with a sweep of my thumb. I'm usually okay with it if the slide lock is just barely out of reach, as with some pistols I use my support hand for it anyway. If not, I usually have a slight pivot on the gun, so that doesn't bug me. Otherwise I like everything reachable with the thumb.

-Cory

[JTQ]

If not, I usually have a slight pivot on the gun, so that doesn't bug me. Otherwise I like everything reachable with the thumb.

-Cory
I used to concern myself with being able to reach controls, other than the trigger, without having to change my grip. However, now I don't care, and actually have begun to think of my inability to reach those controls as a feature of the gun (sounds like something Glock would claim:)).

My point is, none of those things, mag release, slide lock/release, safety, etc., should be pushed while I have my finger on the trigger anyway, so the fact that I have to rotate the gun to reach them and take my finger from the trigger to do so is not much of a concern to me. It keeps me from fouling those devices while shooting the gun, such as bumping the mag release on a Gen 4 Glock, or the SIG slide release, etc.

[David S.]

Darryl and I were discussing this just today.

The LEM is essentially a robust, long trigger travel version of a Glock. For non-enthusiast shooters, it may be the ideal combination of function with a good trade off between ease of shooting and non-ease of shooting (meaning avoiding unintentional shooting). The DA/SA involves more complexity, but in exchange offers a specialized separate threat management and shooting trigger. For an enthusiast, this is a reasonable trade off, and for non-enthusiasts, this may be an unreasonable burden. The striker offers essentially a full time SA trigger, at the cost of less reserve trigger safety.

If you keep these trade offs in mind, there will be less angst. I carry a LEM trigger in the summer, because I value the rest of the HK package. Guess what, my pure technical performance with the LEM is significantly worse than I can do with a good DA/SA or striker trigger. What I do not do is go to a course or competition, and bemoan my worse performance on timed drills. I have yet to find the perfect platform -- they all have their pluses and minuses.

Love this post!

[flyrodr]

Totally agree with points made here and elsewhere by Dagga Boy, EL and GJM. Also, that the PX4 CC with Langdon/Robar mods is an exceptional pistol. That said, I'm one of those with the stubby fingers, and am finding that acquiring a good grip that allows a smooth roll/row of the first DA pull without causing the front sight to twitch is tough. Just can't get enough of index finger on the trigger for a smooth straight back pull. I can do it, but only by forcing an extreme twist of the gun hand to get more finger on the trigger. The error on the target is fairly minimal, but noticeable, and mostly, a mental distraction. Certainly no fault of the gun. One of the "use what fits" situations. Likely continue with LEM. Perhaps slightly slower followup shots (theoretical in my case; not a speedy shooter), but more consistent grip/pull/accuracy on first shot.

[bigslim]

I used to concern myself with being able to reach controls, other than the trigger, without having to change my grip. However, now I don't care, and actually have begun to think of my inability to reach those controls as a feature of the gun (sounds like something Glock would claim:)).

My point is, none of those things, mag release, slide lock/release, safety, etc., should be pushed while I have my finger on the trigger anyway, so the fact that I have to rotate the gun to reach them and take my finger from the trigger to do so is not much of a concern to me. It keeps me from fouling those devices while shooting the gun, such as bumping the mag release on a Gen 4 Glock, or the SIG slide release, etc.

If I had this curse to some and blessing to others I would be 100% GTG with the SP2022.

Mike

[s0nspark]

TL;DR: the CZ P-07 was my choice

I started out (as many these days do) shooting striker-fired guns. Of course, it didn't take long to recognize I was definitely in the enthusiast camp so I have dabbled with many other guns over the years. A few years back I felt the dabbling had become a distraction and was stunting my development as a shooter so I made a commitment to pick a single pistol and shoot and train with it extensively and exclusively for at least a solid year and then reassess. After some hands on research I chose the HK VP9 for that project... and all went well.

Fast forward to the end of that project - I had decided at that point that I wanted to make some other changes for carry.

- I wanted to switch back to appendix carry (an injury shortly before the VP9 project started had forced me to carry strong side)
- I wanted a hammer-fired TDA gun (no SFA AIWB for me)
- I wanted to carry with an X300 (I had experimented with an APL on the VP9 and loved it but wanted more lumens)
- I wanted something that could be milled for an RDS

My criteria narrowed the field a good bit, especially the last item. I wanted to stick with polymer and I had experience with Cajunized CZs in my dabbling days so I decided to give the P-07 a spin. The P30/P30L was a serious contender but I really wanted something I would be able to fully maintain myself. I upgraded the P-07 with CGW parts and dropped the slide off with Mark Housel @ L&M Precision Gunworks to be milled for an RMR07. Since getting that gun back my perspective on carry guns has changed significantly... the P-07 has clicked with me in a way no other gun has.

I still appreciate other guns for their history and fun factor at the range but for carry, nah... I'm good.

[Duelist]

If I had this curse to some and blessing to others I would be 100% GTG with the SP2022.

Mike

I'd have kept mine. But could not, even with a modded slide release, reliably not touch it and keep it from working. My thumb, 90% of the time, ended up deactivating it. I'm much better on the 92 and Glock.

[bigslim]

I'd have kept mine. But could not, even with a modded slide release, reliably not touch it and keep it from working. My thumb, 90% of the time, ended up deactivating it. I'm much better on the 92 and Glock.

The 2022 is the only Sig that I don't ride the slide stop on. My issue is my support had activates the de-cocker.

Mike

[David S.]

Sometimes you just gotta jump in with both feet. I'm glad I did.

I'm not trying to tell anyone (OP, specifically) what to do. I got several years of great service from my SIGs, so I'm not trying to talk you (OP) out of anything. I'm certainly not saying that classic SIGs are a bad choice. But if you've struggled with the controls in the past, I'm not sure "jump in with both feet" is the best answer, unless you've got a liberal gun budget. Of course, I consider "jumping in with both feet" in the P-F context: buying multiple copies of same gun, plus sights and support gear. That may not be what MSparks909 means.

I think the ideal way to approach this would be to take a class with a borrowed copy of whatever gun you like. Steve Fisher (sentinelconcepts.com) comes to mind as being fairly local, runs regular classes, and familiar with the DA/SA system. There's a good chance he has a P229 that he could loan you for the class. 700+ rounds under the modest pressure of a class may give you some idea if the platform is right for you.

Lastly, a lot of people report having similar problems fouling H&K slide catch levers too. I haven't had an issue, but it is commonly reported complaint.

BTW. I have absolutely no experience with CZ or Berettas, therefore no comment.

[bigslim]

[QUOTE= Of course, I consider "jumping in with both feet" in the P-F context: buying multiple copies of same gun, plus sights and support gear.

[/QUOTE]

This is how I do it with the exception of multiple guns up front. When I picked up the 2022 I felt it was necessary to evaluate it side by side to my carry G19 with the exact same set up. So I put on a set of HD's, attached the X300U, and bought another Bravo holster. Lucky I didn't go ham on buying mags.

I shot them side by side and compared hits and splits on the F.A.S.T. and other DOTW. Thats what really opened my eyes to the shoot ability of DA/SA. After a few dry fire sessions to get to know the handling of the 2022 the live fire stuff fell into place and was at or slightly better with it than I was the G19. Of course that only happened when I could keep my support hand off the de-cocker, which like I said is why I am looking for a new EDC.

I have to constantly remind myself that by the time we get this deep into discussing and evaluating blasters we really are starting to pull out the minor details. That can lead to annalists paralysis but it is so helpful in getting a better idea of what a pistol has to offer.

Mike

[Dagga Boy]

Does anyone have experience Sig P225? I really liked how it felt in my hand.

Carried one as a primary off duty gun for many years. Absolutely loved it.

[bigslim]

Hey BigSlim, if you are interested, you can try out any one of my SIG pistols if you'd like. I have the MK25 and Legion in the P226. I also have the P229 if you are married to the size of the G19. Let me know, you know how to reach me.

Not sure how I missed this but its been far to long since I've been out there. My work schedule changed and threw a wrench in much of my rec time. Hell I haven't shot a match since, Ill work on reminding that.

Mike

[bigslim]

Just back from the LGS, traded the 2022 in on a PX4CC. Didn't completely loose my ass on the Sig which was a surprise but thats why I support my local guy. Im gonna order a holster from JM and am still undecided if I'm gonna get a hammer from LTT and #12 spring from WC.

Mike

[MSparks909]

Just back from the LGS, traded the 2022 in on a PX4CC. Didn't completely loose my ass on the Sig which was a surprise but thats why I support my local guy. Im gonna order a holster from JM and am still undecided if I'm gonna get a hammer from LTT and #12 spring from WC.

Mike

Congrats! If you don't get hammer bite then I would save your money. But definitely get the 12# spring. It's $6 and WELL worth it.

[bigslim]

Congrats! If you don't get hammer bite then I would save your money. But definitely get the 12# spring. It's $6 and WELL worth it.

Won't know that until Tuesday when it comes in. I would imagine that the bobbed hammer is a benefit in comfort while carrying so it might be worth picking one up anyway. I will order a spring straight away though, thx.

Mike

[MSparks909]

I got the hammer out of necessity as the stock one pinched the crap out of my hand. But I've grown to really like it and it makes placing your thumb on the back of the slide feel more natural because there's no more spur. Big fan. Best of luck with the gun and be sure to post up after you've had time to shoot it!

18141

[bigslim]

Yep, now the question is do I get 2 and save on shipping? I would hate for EL to run out of stock before I pick up a second copy of the gun.

Mike

[Dagga Boy]

I got the hammer out of necessity as the stock one pinched the crap out of my hand. But I've grown to really like it and it makes placing your thumb on the back of the slide feel more natural because there's no more spur. Big fan. Best of luck with the gun and be sure to post up after you've had time to shoot it!

18141

This! It makes bolstering with your thumb perfectly contoured over the back of the gun totally natural. I didn't get hammer bite, but I have the concealed hammer in all four of my PX4CC's.

[RJ]

Since y'all are on decocking, I have a question from the point of view of Zip experience with this.

In regards to left handed shooters (me) with smaller to medium sized hands (also me) what would you suggest as a workable decocking mechanism?

Lever on Slide?

Push button on Rear of frame?

Something else?

I'm mulling over a Plan of moving towards trying a DA/SA pistol in the next phase of my firearm exposure. I like my VP9 as a game gun, and it works more or less as a CCW.

I'm not thrilled with losing the hammer of my P30SK LEM while holstering, though. I just lost a lot of confidence shooting the LEM in class, and of course 10 rounds is 10 rounds (I'm sure this is all just in my head).

Anyway, short future list to try at the rental counter next time would be a SCD-equipped G19, a PX4 Storm Compact, an HK P2000 TDA and an HK USPc TDA.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts for us teenie handed lefties.

Rich

[GJM]

Since y'all are on decocking, I have a question from the point of view of Zip experience with this.

In regards to left handed shooters (me) with smaller to medium sized hands (also me) what would you suggest as a workable decocking mechanism?

Lever on Slide?

Push button on Rear of frame?

Something else?

I'm mulling over a Plan of moving towards trying a DA/SA pistol in the next phase of my firearm exposure. I like my VP9 as a game gun, and it works more or less as a CCW.

I'm not thrilled with losing the hammer of my P30SK LEM while holstering, though. I just lost a lot of confidence shooting the LEM in class, and of course 10 rounds is 10 rounds (I'm sure this is all just in my head).

Anyway, short future list to try at the rental counter next time would be a SCD-equipped G19, a PX4 Storm Compact, an HK P2000 TDA and an HK USPc TDA.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts for us teenie handed lefties.

Rich

Between the VP9 and P30SK, you have two extremely high quality pistols. I would invest what you might spend on new pistols, in ammo and training, as it seems like you are trying to solve a software issue with hardware.

[MSparks909]

What do you mean by "losing the hammer on my P30SK LEM?"

[CDFIII]

What do you mean by "losing the hammer on my P30SK LEM?"
I believe he is talking about thumbing the hammer during holstering. Where his VP is strker fired.. having no hammer to thumb.

[bigslim]

Since y'all are on decocking, I have a question from the point of view of Zip experience with this.

In regards to left handed shooters (me) with smaller to medium sized hands (also me) what would you suggest as a workable decocking mechanism?

Lever on Slide?

Push button on Rear of frame?

Something else?

I'm mulling over a Plan of moving towards trying a DA/SA pistol in the next phase of my firearm exposure. I like my VP9 as a game gun, and it works more or less as a CCW.

I'm not thrilled with losing the hammer of my P30SK LEM while holstering, though. I just lost a lot of confidence shooting the LEM in class, and of course 10 rounds is 10 rounds (I'm sure this is all just in my head).

Anyway, short future list to try at the rental counter next time would be a SCD-equipped G19, a PX4 Storm Compact, an HK P2000 TDA and an HK USPc TDA.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts for us teenie handed lefties.

Rich

Take this with a grain of salt as I have big hands, am right handed, and only have limited time behind M9's and a SP2022.

If memory is serving correctly the on option for an ambi decocker is on a slide mount system like Beretta or S&W. With that style you could use your support hand to decock. It seams to me like a frame or rear of slide mounted decocker will mandate a break in firing grip. Not sure if you could manipulate a frame mount with your trigger finger or not. I know for sure there are others with more practical experience with this.

Mike

[Duelist]

Since y'all are on decocking, I have a question from the point of view of Zip experience with this.

In regards to left handed shooters (me) with smaller to medium sized hands (also me) what would you suggest as a workable decocking mechanism?

Lever on Slide?

Push button on Rear of frame?

Something else?

I'm mulling over a Plan of moving towards trying a DA/SA pistol in the next phase of my firearm exposure. I like my VP9 as a game gun, and it works more or less as a CCW.

I'm not thrilled with losing the hammer of my P30SK LEM while holstering, though. I just lost a lot of confidence shooting the LEM in class, and of course 10 rounds is 10 rounds (I'm sure this is all just in my head).

Anyway, short future list to try at the rental counter next time would be a SCD-equipped G19, a PX4 Storm Compact, an HK P2000 TDA and an HK USPc TDA.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts for us teenie handed lefties.

Rich

Can you convert the P30SK to TDA?

[CDFIII]

Can you convert the P30SK to TDA?

Not really... The Da/SA HK P30 has a frame cut out for the decocker button where the LEM frame does not.

[Doc_Glock]

Since y'all are on decocking, I have a question from the point of view of Zip experience with this.

In regards to left handed shooters (me) with smaller to medium sized hands (also me) what would you suggest as a workable decocking mechanism?

Lever on Slide?

Push button on Rear of frame?

Something else?

I'm mulling over a Plan of moving towards trying a DA/SA pistol in the next phase of my firearm exposure. I like my VP9 as a game gun, and it works more or less as a CCW.

Anyway, short future list to try at the rental counter next time would be a SCD-equipped G19, a PX4 Storm Compact, an HK P2000 TDA and an HK USPc TDA.


The PX4 compact is super easy to decock left handed. I have little experience with Sigs, but find the Beretta system superior. Not enough time on the HK behind the slide thing to comment but it seems ambi enough.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nDv2aEHnRWg

[MSparks909]

I believe he is talking about thumbing the hammer during holstering. Where his VP is strker fired.. having no hammer to thumb.

Thanks I just misread what he wrote wrong

[Jalez]

Just to reply to the OP, here is a PX4 Compact with a Streamlight TRL-3 mounted, it fit straight away with the "A" Key that the TRL-3 comes with out of the box. Ive put about 400 rounds through it and it hasn't budged. Solid light imo, however I don't know how I would feel carrying it in a holster, so its now officially on Nightstand duty.
1816718167

[RJ]

The PX4 compact is super easy to decock left handed. I have little experience with Sigs, but find the Beretta system superior. Not enough time on the HK behind the slide thing to comment but it seems ambi enough.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nDv2aEHnRWg

Thanks E, that looks pretty easy, thanks. I'll look into that.

[RJ]

I believe he is talking about thumbing the hammer during holstering. Where his VP is strker fired.. having no hammer to thumb.

Correct.

[bigslim]

Thanks Jalez Certainly a possibility for a night stand gun.

Mike

[RJ]

What do you mean by "losing the hammer on my P30SK LEM?"

Basically, my VP9 is a fully tensioned SFA pistol with 1/4" travel which I am wearing AIWB.

Carrying my P30SK, I got a hammer to thumb that was not on the VP9. When I moved away from the P30SK, I lost that feature. (Weirdly, I still thumb the rear of the VP9 holstering lol.)

Given the limited (imho) mag capacity of the P30SK, and fumbling reloads, though, I came out of my class looking for a better option than the VP9: hammer fired (or SCD), self- or manual decocker, and a full size grip (for my hands that's a minimum of a 13 round USPc/P2000 mag).

Hence my short list of TDA guns, and hence my question on decockers. I especially appreciate Enel's post, that was pretty helpful.

[Doc_Glock]

Thanks E, that looks pretty easy, thanks. I'll look into that.

Here is Left Handed Decocking a Sig 226 Legion. Not as easy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zRIjl1lMKIw

I actually can't really reach the decocker with my right thumb and use my left thumb typically as a right handed.

Sorry about video orientation. I have no idea how to fix that.

[CommanderCrusty]

I've shot both, and between the two, I would buy the CZ P07. The CZ is lighter, has a better/lighter SA trigger and the controls are up out of the way. That being said, I didn't actually buy the CZ. I already had a Sig P250 which has a BETTER DA pull than the Sig P229 and a better grip. I felt the CZ SA trigger was TOO light for concealed carry. I went with the 92FS Beretta. I had to upgrade the trigger spring and put in a steel trigger, but that cost me less than $100 and now I am very happy with the big Beretta. Of course, to handle a WML you would want the M9 with rail. That is a LOT of weight to carry! Enjoy the journey.18169

[bigslim]

I've shot both, and between the two, I would buy the CZ P07. The CZ is lighter, has a better/lighter SA trigger and the controls are up out of the way. That being said, I didn't actually buy the CZ. I already had a Sig P250 which has a BETTER DA pull than the Sig P229 and a better grip. I felt the CZ SA trigger was TOO light for concealed carry. I went with the 92FS Beretta. I had to upgrade the trigger spring and put in a steel trigger, but that cost me less than $100 and now I am very happy with the big Beretta. Of course, to handle a WML you would want the M9 with rail. That is a LOT of weight to carry! Enjoy the journey.

There's always a compromise isn't there. Trigger systems, size, weight, after marker support. Seems as though the PX4 has a lot going for it. Not everything I would like to have but more pluses than minuses in my eyes. Mine should be in on Tuesday and I'll get a first impression and start on the 2k challenge. This could be the start of a love affaire with an Italian. I think her name will be Claudia.

Mike

[Trukinjp13]

I have had a p07 and a px4cc. The p07 was stock. My px4cc has a 12# hammer and obvious factory mods. I shoot the px4cc better. It conceals better and feels more comfortable in hand. If I had a cgw p07 with a stipple job it would have made my choice a lot harder. I am amazed at how well the p07 shoots out of the box. For the price it is amazing. I think stock for stock I would say cz. But with the g mod and the package of the px4cc it wins. Even if they were equally modded. But that is no knock at all towards the cz. And obviously my opinion since I have no real trigger time behind a cgw build. If you are thinking about a fairly stock sub 500$ pistol in da/sa I think you are a fool to pass on a p07.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bigslim]

If you are thinking about a fairly stock sub 500$ pistol in da/sa I think you are a fool to pass on a p07.



Does anything ever stay stock? G19 with HD's and an X300U and I was in for $900 or so right off the rip, not to mention the stipple job I did myself. For a touch less I'm getting into a system that I feel has more to offer. Granted I will change out the hammer and hammer spring but that is still less than I put into my first setup. Mags and holsters are a given no matter what system you get into so those are shared costs.

Mike

[ffhounddog]

It feels like I am the only one that prefers a M9 or Beretta Vertec compared to any Sig. I have had more problems with Sigs than Berettas.

3 P2000sv3
3 Berettas (two Vertec)
1 Sig P228.....hmmm
1 Sig P229 (40sw)

I prefer the Beretta compared to the Sig for some odd reason maybe 16 years of carrying a Beretta into and out of combat with no issues.

[Duelist]

No SIGs left here, much as I like and respect them. Beretta, Glock, 3rd Gen S&W, S&W revolvers.

[Jared]

It feels like I am the only one that prefers a M9 or Beretta Vertec compared to any Sig. I have had more problems with Sigs than Berettas.

3 P2000sv3
3 Berettas (two Vertec)
1 Sig P228.....hmmm
1 Sig P229 (40sw)

I prefer the Beretta compared to the Sig for some odd reason maybe 16 years of carrying a Beretta into and out of combat with no issues.

Oh no, you aren't alone. I like the 92 and the PX4 better than the classic SIG P-Series myself.

[Trukinjp13]

Does anything ever stay stock? G19 with HD's and an X300U and I was in for $900 or so right off the rip, not to mention the stipple job I did myself. For a touch less I'm getting into a system that I feel has more to offer. Granted I will change out the hammer and hammer spring but that is still less than I put into my first setup. Mags and holsters are a given no matter what system you get into so those are shared costs.

Mike

I said fairly stock for a reason. Some guys do not want to get into the internals or do a stipple job. Sometimes simply a sight change is necessary. To me the px4 HAS to be decocker only, stealth levers and the comp. trigger group. Which is not stock, at all. The p07 is 100% shootable out of the box. Even has a lighter da stock. I love my px4cc, but I never gave them a chance because in stock configuration I would not ever own one. It is also for above 500$. With the p07 you can pick one up and throw sights on it for 500$. I am not saying it is the best da/sa gun there is. But for shootability vs dollars for a da/sa I think it is pretty hard to beat.

[bigslim]

I said fairly stock for a reason. Some guys do not want to get into the internals or do a stipple job. Sometimes simply a sight change is necessary. To me the px4 HAS to be decocker only, stealth levers and the comp. trigger group. Which is not stock, at all. The p07 is 100% shootable out of the box. Even has a lighter da stock. I love my px4cc, but I never gave them a chance because in stock configuration I would not ever own one. It is also for above 500$. With the p07 you can pick one up and throw sights on it for 500$. I am not saying it is the best da/sa gun there is. But for shootability vs dollars for a da/sa I think it is pretty hard to beat.

I see where your coming from and if Ernest wasn't doing this project I would most likely be a CZ guy.

Mike

[bigslim]

It feels like I am the only one that prefers a M9 or Beretta Vertec compared to any Sig. I have had more problems with Sigs than Berettas.

3 P2000sv3
3 Berettas (two Vertec)
1 Sig P228.....hmmm
1 Sig P229 (40sw)

I prefer the Beretta compared to the Sig for some odd reason maybe 16 years of carrying a Beretta into and out of combat with no issues.


No SIGs left here, much as I like and respect them. Beretta, Glock, 3rd Gen S&W, S&W revolvers.


Oh no, you aren't alone. I like the 92 and the PX4 better than the classic SIG P-Series myself.

If this is contagious I'm gonna have to find more famous Italian women to name my blasters after.

Mike

[Trukinjp13]

I see where your coming from and if Ernest wasn't doing this project I would most likely be a CZ guy.

Mike

I reread my post, I hope I did not come off like a ass! You will be very happy with the px4. I am amazed at how well it shoots. I bought a 92a1 and wilsonized it. Much prefer the little px4cc. I am just not a fullsize Beretta guy I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bigslim]

I reread my post, I hope I did not come off like a ass! You will be very happy with the px4. I am amazed at how well it shoots. I bought a 92a1 and wilsonized it. Much prefer the little px4cc. I am just not a fullsize Beretta guy I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not at all. This is the problem with text based communication, the reader can infer any attitude or inflection they want. I knew what you were getting at and was trying to convey that I have a problem with keeping things stock.

Mike

[GJM]

With a LEM HK, the trigger is forward when you slide forward reload, so using your trigger finger places your finger behind and not at the trigger. That is not so with a DA/SA HK in SA with a slide lock reload. See pictures (second picture simulates SA since this is a match hybrid LEM trigger on a USP).

18173

18174

[Wondering Beard]

Since y'all are on decocking, I have a question from the point of view of Zip experience with this.

In regards to left handed shooters (me) with smaller to medium sized hands (also me) what would you suggest as a workable decocking mechanism?

Lever on Slide?

Push button on Rear of frame?

Something else?

I'm mulling over a Plan of moving towards trying a DA/SA pistol in the next phase of my firearm exposure. I like my VP9 as a game gun, and it works more or less as a CCW.

I'm not thrilled with losing the hammer of my P30SK LEM while holstering, though. I just lost a lot of confidence shooting the LEM in class, and of course 10 rounds is 10 rounds (I'm sure this is all just in my head).

Anyway, short future list to try at the rental counter next time would be a SCD-equipped G19, a PX4 Storm Compact, an HK P2000 TDA and an HK USPc TDA.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts for us teenie handed lefties.

Rich

Somehow I get the feeling you will finish this journey with a G19 and a gadget.

I'm only partially joking.

As to which decocking system, only you can answer that by trying them out. I don't mean my response to be a cop out, but it can really be a personal thing. You've taken a few high quality classes already so you have a pretty good idea about what you need to do under stress with maximum efficiency; with that in mind, you need to handle yourself the various SIGs, Berettas, HKs etc ... and feel what works for you. I have large hands and, since I like to be able to manipulate a gun as nearly easily from the left or the right, I always try, before a purchase, to find out how efficient I can be with the design. For me, the SIG was easier than the Beretta or the HK rear decocker, but that's just me. It will be different for you. Drop by a gun shop and just try the different ones.

[RJ]

Somehow I get the feeling you will finish this journey with a G19 and a gadget.

I'm only partially joking.

As to which decocking system, only you can answer that by trying them out. I don't mean my response to be a cop out, but it can really be a personal thing. You've taken a few high quality classes already so you have a pretty good idea about what you need to do under stress with maximum efficiency; with that in mind, you need to handle yourself the various SIGs, Berettas, HKs etc ... and feel what works for you. I have large hands and, since I like to be able to manipulate a gun as nearly easily from the left or the right, I always try, before a purchase, to find out how efficient I can be with the design. For me, the SIG was easier than the Beretta or the HK rear decocker, but that's just me. It will be different for you. Drop by a gun shop and just try the different ones.

I am not opposed to the answer to the question of what G19-sized carry gun being a...Glock 19. :cool:

Yep.

If I've learned anything in the last three years, it's that Internet discussions do not equal shooting a copy of the gun you are mulling over purchasing.

This would be the fifth pistol for me since 2014, which by most standards here is no big deal, but would cause arched eyebrows from SWMBO on our retirement budget. :)

[DAB]

have not read the entire thread, but a Px4 full size or compact are about a Glock 19 size. convert to G levers (decock only), easy to do, and you have a really nice DA/SA package. i have both, but carry the full size, more ammo on board and longer barrel (3.92" vs. 3.26" for compact), accurate and soft shooting.

decock lever is on the slide, you won't be riding the lever.




Looking for pros, cons, and opinions on a new DA/SA system.

I, like most others are looking for a roughly G19 size package. That's my current EDC so I am using that as a reference.

I picked up a SP2022 and set it up like my G19 with Trij HD’s, X300U, and Bravo Concealment holster. I was hoping that this would be the answer but I started another thread describing an issue I have with my support hand placement riding the decocker and giving me a dead trigger. I could modify the decock lever and try to come up with a compromise but I would like to explore other hardware options first.

I like the idea of the PX4 CC but my issue with it is the inability to run a light on that short rail. Maybe I am overemphasizing the importance of a WML but that is the deal killer for me.

I have shot a P226 in .40 which I was not a fan of and I do ride the slide release preventing lock back but that's easily fix by sliding my thumb over. There isn't a local range that rents a 226 or 229 in 9mm for me to tryout but the ethos of both feel good to me.

I have handled and shot a CZ P-01 and P-07 Duty. My only real issue with the P-07 is it seems like the trigger break is quite far back towards the frame. I had an issue with getting the trigger to break without sinking my finger up to almost the second knuckle. I have an idea that the interchangeable back straps will fix this.

So what does the knowledge base have for pros and cons on the P229 and P-07 other than price. Maybe I am missing another viable option but that where my decision lies as of now.

Mike


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[s0nspark]

This would be the fifth pistol for me since 2014, which by most standards here is no big deal, but would cause arched eyebrows from SWMBO on our retirement budget. :)

You are not alone, brother!

/solidarity :)

[s0nspark]

I just have to say... "about Glock 19 size" means something different to different people.

Size-wise, those who feel a G19 is on the big size... feel one way. I, on the other hand, feel quite differently.

I actually prefer something just a hair bigger in the grip length department and *considerably* different (longer) in the slide length department.

G19 grip length (plus a hair or two), G17+ slide length is closer to ideal than anything I have yet to see roll off the production lines... am I alone?

I just wonder why we have yet to see anything like this from the mfgs.

[bigslim]

I'm good with the grip frame but I do wish the barrel was longer (that's what she said)

Mike

[MSparks909]

The PX4 full size is almost identical to a G17 if you lay them on top of each other. Might be worth a look.

[David S.]

Somehow I get the feeling you will finish this journey with a G19 and a gadget.

I'm only partially joking.



Ya know. I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday.

I've met his Mrs.

Glad you said it, cuz there's no way I'd want the wrath of Mrs. Jenkins for even hinting at another platform change. ;)

[GJM]

Face it -- while not perfect, a Glock 19 checks so many boxes, that absent a specific preference, it is the answer for an EDC choice.

[bigslim]

Face it -- while not perfect, a Glock 19 checks so many boxes, that absent a specific preference, it is the answer for an EDC choice.

To bad nobody slapped a hammer on it and called it a day.

Mike

[ffhounddog]

I still miss my old P99.

P2000v3 and Glock 19....sounds like a win win.

[backtrail540]

I just have to say... "about Glock 19 size" means something different to different people.

Size-wise, those who feel a G19 is on the big size... feel one way. I, on the other hand, feel quite differently.

I actually prefer something just a hair bigger in the grip length department and *considerably* different (longer) in the slide length department.

G19 grip length (plus a hair or two), G17+ slide length is closer to ideal than anything I have yet to see roll off the production lines... am I alone?

I just wonder why we have yet to see anything like this from the mfgs.

I'm right there with you. When I was running P series cz's, I found myself wishing for an in between size...just slightly longer grip than the p07 but with the p09 slide length...like if they had made the p09 a 17 round gun instead of the 19 rounder, with corresponding grip length. That would be near perfection for me, as I liked nearly every other aspect of the p series. A beretta 92 is fairly close in grip to slide ratio (a bit too long in the slide for my preference actually) but I have other qualms with it. A chopped 17 is about as close as I get. That being said, I just carry a 19 currently and soldier on.

[FrankB]

I have a few DA/SA pistols I carry. A PPK, PPK/S, Beretta PX4 Storm Compact, and a Tristar T100 stamped "Canik 55" on the frame. They've all been bumped out of rotation by the T100. I live 10 minutes from a range, and have put several hundred rounds of different ammo though the pistol with one single problem. It's larger than the rest, but weighs the same as the Beretta, and its build quality seems spectacular. I'm completely anal about things like this, and even with a loupe the pistol looks great...lol! I carry it in a Little Foxx IWB holster at between 3:00-4:00, and don't even know it's there. 18210

[Jalez]

I have a few DA/SA pistols I carry. A PPK, PPK/S, Beretta PX4 Storm Compact, and a Tristar T100 stamped "Canik 55" on the frame. They've all been bumped out of rotation by the T100. I live 10 minutes from a range, and have put several hundred rounds of different ammo though the pistol with one single problem. It's larger than the rest, but weighs the same as the Beretta, and its build quality seems spectacular. I'm completely anal about things like this, and even with a loupe the pistol looks great...lol! I carry it in a Little Foxx IWB holster at between 3:00-4:00, and don't even know it's there. 18210


That's a nice looking gun. Speaking of Canik, I keep hearing good/great things about them. I even had an employee from my local gun shop tell me I should get a Canik instead of a P320 (not sure if he gets more commission or what, but still found it interesting he recommended Canik over Sig)....will have to try them out soon.

[FrankB]

That's a nice looking gun. Speaking of Canik, I keep hearing good/great things about them. I even had an employee from my local gun shop tell me I should get a Canik instead of a P320 (not sure if he gets more commission or what, but still found it interesting he recommended Canik over Sig)....will have to try them out soon.
I bought the Canik not long after my PX4 Storm, and the PX4 hasn't seen the light of day since. The Canik fits like a glove, has a shorter pull, and is thin enough that I simply can't feel it inside my waistband. The PX4 and Canik are equally accurate in my hands, but the Beretta has better stock sights. I put Truglo TFO's on the Canik, but I could do without the fiber optic rear sight.

[Mjolnir]

Have you looked at the H&K P2000? It's a remarkably nice little pistol. I have the "Todd Green" spring setup and I adore the little gun.


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[bigslim]

Have you looked at the H&K P2000? It's a remarkably nice little pistol. I have the "Todd Green" spring setup and I adore the little gun.


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No I haven't, I ended up with a PX4CC and will be working with that.

Mike

[Buckshot]

Target ID. Shooting a pistol well is difficult enough and if I have to choose between shooting freestyle with illumination on the gun or one handed with a light in the other, I like option 1.

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Disregard