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VolGrad
01-04-2012, 07:00 PM
I was doing some surfing online and found this. I want one. Anyone ever handle one of these?

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php

Go ahead, make fun. Start the parade of posts stating how much better a pistol, an 870, or an AR would be for HD. I have all those (well, not 870 but close enough).

The Double Defense is all of the following;

simple
short overall length
ported bbl
hi viz front sight
tac rail underneath for light/laser



It's probably lame but I just think it's cool.

Talk me into or out of it. GO.

Sparks2112
01-04-2012, 07:36 PM
The 20 gauge would be great for females / adolescents. Seems like a good option. Pump guns aren't as bullet proof as people think, especially of you're a non shooter.

VolGrad
01-04-2012, 07:46 PM
I am proficient with a handgun. I am decent with a carbine. I am NOT comfortable running a pump shotgun at this time ... even though I have one. I have never really tried too hard or spent any time on one given my preference for a handgun or AR.

This Double Defense is kind of just a "wouldn't that be a cool thing to have" thing.

peterb
01-04-2012, 07:47 PM
The automatic safety might be an issue. It automatically engages when you open the gun.

The best source of information about the Stoeger coach guns would be the cowboy action shooting community. Several gunsmiths offer packages to make them better competition guns -- don't know if those changes would also make sense for defensive use.

VolGrad
01-04-2012, 08:02 PM
The automatic safety might be an issue. It automatically engages when you open the gun.

The best source of information about the Stoeger coach guns would be the cowboy action shooting community. Several gunsmiths offer packages to make them better competition guns -- don't know if those changes would also make sense for defensive use.

I saw that about the safety. I think it engages when you close it. Either way ... I agree it might not be ideal.

Good suggestion on cowboy action shooting guys ....

JeffJ
01-04-2012, 08:35 PM
I've had a stoeger ou for a while now, I really like it for a field gun. It does the same auto engage on the safety thing, it doesn't bother me as that for long guns I consider disengaging the safety as part of mounting the gun.

For $450ish, I think you could find a second hand auto loader which would probably be a better choice - although if you need to ride shotgun on a horse drawn swat call out...

jetfire
01-04-2012, 08:39 PM
I actually had a Double Defense for a while, in 12 gauge. It was actually...you know what, it was awesome as hell and I wish I'd never sold it. I put an aimpoint on mine, and it was about as dirt-simple an HD gun as you can get.

VolGrad
01-04-2012, 09:11 PM
I actually had a Double Defense for a while, in 12 gauge. It was actually...you know what, it was awesome as hell and I wish I'd never sold it. I put an aimpoint on mine, and it was about as dirt-simple an HD gun as you can get.

You are THE man. I'm glad you saw this and posted. It is definitely on my want list. I'll be calling some of my usual outlets as time permits to see if I can rustle up a good deal on one.

Keep the feedback coming though guys.

Ed L
01-04-2012, 11:49 PM
There is nothing wrong with wanting something because you want it. The big question is, why do you want it because it is interesting and fun or as a home defense shotgun?

I have a short double coachgun myself. There is something cool about them. But it is not a first line or even 4th line home defense gun.

But for the price of this shotgun, you could easily buy a quality pump shotgun that doesn't need to be reloaded after two shots.

If someone wants to spend the money on a red dot or light to put on a doubel barreled railed shotgun for home defense, I think they are better off first spending the money on a shotgun that can be fired more than two times before it has to be reloaded.

Here is an obligatory photo of a mix in my house of old and new shotguns and rifles. And before anyone gets upset, the 30-40 Krag in the photo was bought at a gunshow this way, I didn't butcher it.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/doublekragAR870.jpg

BWT
01-05-2012, 01:42 AM
Capacity and complexity of reloading are pretty much the immediate issues.

That being said, if you like it... Buy it. I'm sure you've got other guns, but considering you can get a 9-shot Pump for probably around what this goes for, or a semi-auto for more... I just wouldn't go for this unless you had to.

That being said, I'll probably own a coach gun one day, why? Because they're cool.

There are guns I own for enjoyment and there are guns I own to serve a purpose.

I would not lump this in a gun to serve a purpose group.

ETA: I mean it gets back to this... for around the same size/weight you can haul a gun with 4 times the capacity, not just that, but in a shotgun. Remember the last time you thought how much easier it was to re-load and load a shotgun compared to every other firearm made? Because that's never happened for me. Just my experience, but at this point I will re-emphasize, I think coach guns are great, I plan to buy one (eventually) I just would not want to throw a red dot on one and light and go investigating suspicious sounds late at night in a dark house with it as my source of protection.

jmjames
01-05-2012, 02:01 AM
For HD, for the same money you could get a good new autoloader. The Weatherby SA line is a licensed Beretta A390 action, and can be had at Walmart for $427. They make an HD model with pistol grip at 19" barrel for a bit more. Mine (I have the full sized model) is a reliable, gentle shooting shotgun. I just can't imagine a SxS ever being a better bet than an autoloader (as long as it's not totally unreliable) or a pump action for HD needs.

Now, if you just want something that looks cool, the Stoeger fills the bill. I believe that the Stoeger's are the same as Norinco's and/or NEFs, so it may be possible to get the same model under a different brand a save some bucks.

J.Ja

BWT
01-05-2012, 02:07 AM
Here's another element, so let's go ahead and address the capacity, you've got two rounds... then what? I mean insert cowboy action shotgun speed rig joke here. Not to be smart about it, but how fast do you think you could reload from a belt, (So, windows breaking, you grab your SxS), do you throw a belt of 12 GA rounds around your neck and head out in the night, or put on a belt, or run a side saddle off the rear of the gun?

Not only that, let's get down to it. Let's suspend all of that theorem. An over under will be faster and more consistent on target, target transitions and shot to shot, with say slugs or shot than a SXS. Honestly an O/U, will be pretty much get the front bead on whatever within 25-50 yards and you're going to hit it or pepper it at least with shot, with either the bottom or top barrel, so you don't have to compensate if for some reason you were running slugs and a red dot out to those distances.

But, that's my take on it. I don't think anybody's going to jump down your throat for wanting a gun here. But, what you expect, and what you substitute for it? Is it Ideal? I think that's where you'll find your friction.

VolGrad
01-05-2012, 07:38 AM
Capacity and complexity of reloading are pretty much the immediate issues.

ETA: I mean it gets back to this... for around the same size/weight you can haul a gun with 4 times the capacity, not just that, but in a shotgun. Remember the last time you thought how much easier it was to re-load and load a shotgun compared to every other firearm made? Because that's never happened for me. Just my experience, but at this point I will re-emphasize, I think coach guns are great, I plan to buy one (eventually) I just would not want to throw a red dot on one and light and go investigating suspicious sounds late at night in a dark house with it as my source of protection.

Good points by all and nothing really unexpected thus far.

Here's my deal on long guns for HD ... for my situation. I don't keep long guns in the house for HD. They are all locked up in the safe. My reasons include but are not limited to; no easy way to safely secure one from theft or kids while at the same time allowing quick access if needed, don't want a $1500 AR/Aimpoint setup stolen if the house gets broken in, wife would prob shot me with it for thinking it was acceptable to have an AR sitting in the corner beside her nice bed and pretty curtains. A handgun is much easier to secure/store/access and is my go-to in the house HD gun.

So how does the coach gun play into this? Well, doesn't really change much except it would be less painful to lose a $400 shotgun if stolen. It would also be a decent alternative for the wife over a pump shotgun or AR. Prob doesn't matter much as it would prob live in the safe with the others anyway. I just think it's cool. I don't see myself mounting optics on a coach gun (although cool). Personally, I'd put a white light up front and perhaps a sling. That's about it. For me a shotgun (of any variety) isn't a patrol gun, it's a stand your ground gun. If I had to go on patrol around the house/property I'd get my AR for that.

Another thought, the strongest argument against the coach gun thus far is the low capacity. This is a VERY valid point. However, I'd freely admit I have never trained with a pump shotgun. My experience is watching the Magpul Art of the Dynamic Shotgun ... which frankly didn't impress me too much, no offense. I have always been a little uncomortable handling a pump shotgun given my lack of training and experience with one. I feel very confident with a handgun and feel pretty confident with a carbine. Given that and the fact I will prob not practice enough with a pump to keep any learned skills up I am not sure I should focus much on a pump. Yes, they hold more rounds but if you can't run one at a high skill level it might not be the best choice. Maybe?

JodyH
01-05-2012, 07:49 AM
I say buy one.
Of course i'm buying a Serbu Super Shorty, so who am I to throw stones?
;)

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

peterb
01-05-2012, 08:41 AM
It would also be a decent alternative for the wife over a pump shotgun or AR. Prob doesn't matter much as it would prob live in the safe with the others anyway. I just think it's cool. I don't see myself mounting optics on a coach gun (although cool). Personally, I'd put a white light up front and perhaps a sling. That's about it. For me a shotgun (of any variety) isn't a patrol gun, it's a stand your ground gun. If I had to go on patrol around the house/property I'd get my AR for that.

Another thought, the strongest argument against the coach gun thus far is the low capacity. This is a VERY valid point. However, I'd freely admit I have never trained with a pump shotgun. My experience is watching the Magpul Art of the Dynamic Shotgun ... which frankly didn't impress me too much, no offense. I have always been a little uncomortable handling a pump shotgun given my lack of training and experience with one. I feel very confident with a handgun and feel pretty confident with a carbine. Given that and the fact I will prob not practice enough with a pump to keep any learned skills up I am not sure I should focus much on a pump. Yes, they hold more rounds but if you can't run one at a high skill level it might not be the best choice. Maybe?

Let's think about the required skills. If you keep a double loaded, the skill required to fire is to flip off the safety and pull the trigger. To fire again, pull the trigger again. If there's a malfunction, or you need more than two shots, you break the gun open, reload, and try again. If that doesn't work, you're out of luck.

With a semi-auto, if you keep it loaded, the skill required to fire is to flip off the safety and pull the trigger. To fire again, pull the trigger again. You have 4-8 shots until you have to reload. If there's a malfunction, you manually cycle the bolt handle and try again. If that doesn't work there are more steps, but you're probably no worse off than you would be with the double.

A pump is probably the most complex choice for the user for the second shot. Every shot requires a complete cycle of the forearm before pulling the trigger. Short-stroking under stress is common for inexperienced users. If you need more than two shots, you have still to cycle the forearm but you don't have to manually reload as you would with the double.

A gas-operated semi will have the least felt recoil of the common action types with the same loads.

BN
01-05-2012, 08:43 AM
I have a 12 ga double barrel Baikal Bounty Hunter II Coach gun beside the bed. It has a butt cuff with 5 low recoil 00 buck rounds. I originally got when we were shooting Cowboy.

Advantages: I often have grandkids running around. I leave it unloaded beside the bed for safety. If needed I can break it open, load 2 rounds and be ready. It is easy to load and unload and easy to see if it is empty or loaded. It is 2 guns in one. If one barrel/action breaks, you still have a complete single shot gun.

Disadvantages: It only holds 2 rounds. It only has a brass bead front sight.

I like that you can mount a light on the Stoeger. It's also Tactical Black, which increases the cool factor. ;)

Of course, I also have a Glock with a light mounted in the night stand. :) It's also unloaded with 2 mags beside it for safety. Both guns are 2 movements away from shooting someone by mistake before I can wake up. :(

Bill

VolGrad
01-05-2012, 08:57 AM
peterb ... good comparison of the different types of shotguns.

However, I will rule out an autoloader right off. I owned an early production Mossy 930 of some tactical variety. It sucked. It was a single shot shotgun at best ... on a good day. I had to send it back. It ran OK when it returned but I never felt confident with it after that. I know there are great autoloaders to be had but they are just as expensive or more expensive than my AR setup is. It would also require lots of rounds downrange to insure proper function AND I'd have to spend a lot of time learning to run it well. If I'm going through all that hassle then I'll just use my AR for HD.

Pump shotgun ... I have one. I've only fired 100rds or so at most through it for function testing. I like it. I just don't feel confident with it. IF I wanted to put it in the house for HD I'd want to put a lot more rounds downrange to insure proper function AND I'd have to spend a lot of time learning to run it well. If I'm going through all that hassle then I'll just use my AR for HD.

I've always relied solely on a pistol for HD so the coach gun would actually be more of a supplement to my GLOCK rather than a replacement. If the Chief calls me and says they are tracking 2 burglary suspects on the ground with K9s (which happened last night in another part of the county) and I feel the need to beef up security I'm getting my AR out of the safe regardless, shotguns will step aside.

So which of you dealers wants to make me a stupid cheap deal on one of these? ;)

jlw
01-05-2012, 09:28 AM
I like the simplicity of it, and I like the handiness of it. I prefer an 870P for my personal use, but I also understand that the SxS would be a simpler operation for many. My only drawback is the ported barrels.

VolGrad
01-05-2012, 09:30 AM
I like the simplicity of it, and I like the handiness of it. I prefer an 870P for my personal use, but I also understand that the SxS would be a simpler operation for many. My only drawback is the ported barrels.

Tell the Sheriff to go find us a couple at a good price then. :D

TheLaw
01-05-2012, 10:47 AM
I think you're crazy but you already knew that. :p

jmjames
01-05-2012, 11:31 AM
However, I will rule out an autoloader right off. I owned an early production Mossy 930 of some tactical variety. It sucked. It was a single shot shotgun at best ... on a good day. I had to send it back. It ran OK when it returned but I never felt confident with it after that. I know there are great autoloaders to be had but they are just as expensive or more expensive than my AR setup is. It would also require lots of rounds downrange to insure proper function AND I'd have to spend a lot of time learning to run it well. If I'm going through all that hassle then I'll just use my AR for HD.

I wouldn't paint the whole semi auto shotgun market with the ugly brush based on a bad experience with one particular model. My second pistol was a 1911 with problems, but I'm not writing off semi auto pistols because of it. If your needs are HD, and simplicity is the name of the game, a quality semi auto shotgun makes good sense. A lot of the designs in the past have had issues, but something like the licensed/Turkish made Beretta actions are very good.

J.Ja

ToddG
01-05-2012, 11:39 AM
Vol -- Talk to Eric Lund. You have an amazing shotgun resource in your backyard. My guess is that he can get you over your distaste for semiauto shotguns in about 1.8 seconds.

VolGrad
01-05-2012, 12:12 PM
I wouldn't paint the whole semi auto shotgun market with the ugly brush based on a bad experience with one particular model. My second pistol was a 1911 with problems, but I'm not writing off semi auto pistols because of it. If your needs are HD, and simplicity is the name of the game, a quality semi auto shotgun makes good sense. A lot of the designs in the past have had issues, but something like the licensed/Turkish made Beretta actions are very good.

J.Ja
I agree wholeheartedly about not painting the lot based on one. My point was I would have to step up to something much more expensive to get a better shot at quality than what I had before. I would also have to run a lot of rounds, train, etc.


Vol -- Talk to Eric Lund. You have an amazing shotgun resource in your backyard. My guess is that he can get you over your distaste for semiauto shotguns in about 1.8 seconds.
Agreed. I have taken a couple of pistol and carbine classes from Erik. He usually does a shotgun course once per year in ATL but the timing still hasn't worked out for me to get in one yet. I will eventually even if I don't plan to use a shotgun for a HD gun. I'd still like the skill.

jmjames
01-05-2012, 12:54 PM
I agree wholeheartedly about not painting the lot based on one. My point was I would have to step up to something much more expensive to get a better shot at quality than what I had before. I would also have to run a lot of rounds, train, etc.

Good semi autos aren't as expensive as you think... and bad ones are often more expensive! But you're right for sure that most of the good ones are pricey.

I think, deep down in your heart of hearts, you really just need to succumb to the call of the Taurus Judge. The guy at my local gun shop tells me that this is an ideal home defense gun, and that it's especially useful for preventing car jackings. :p

J.Ja

VolGrad
01-05-2012, 01:01 PM
I think, deep down in your heart of hearts, you really just need to succumb to the call of the Taurus Judge. The guy at my local gun shop tells me that this is an ideal home defense gun, and that it's especially useful for preventing car jackings. :p

J.Ja
Only if Hordnady makes some of that new fangled Zombie ammo for it. Then I'll get me a Judge. :cool:

jmjames
01-05-2012, 01:58 PM
Only if Hordnady makes some of that new fangled Zombie ammo for it. Then I'll get me a Judge. :cool:

This explains why you are so interested in the SxS... "Mad Max" + "Zombie Max" 12 gauge (http://www.hornady.com/store/12-Ga-00-Z-MAX/), for the ultimate in end of world memes. :eek:

J.Ja

Matt C.
01-05-2012, 08:14 PM
The automatic safety might be an issue. It automatically engages when you open the gun.

The best source of information about the Stoeger coach guns would be the cowboy action shooting community. Several gunsmiths offer packages to make them better competition guns -- don't know if those changes would also make sense for defensive use.

Every side x side bird gun I've ever used was configured this way.
You snick off the safety ( it's right on the tang) on the way to shouldering it.
Becomes second nature quickly.

JodyH
01-05-2012, 08:37 PM
I'm a pump guy.
I've seen too many autos go down hard in training and competition.
Winchester 1300 Defender 8+1 is hanging over my closet right now.
Benelli Nova SP 7+1 is my 3-gun and spare HD shottie.
Serbu Super Shorty will be my office desk drawer gun once I bring it home.

JDM
01-05-2012, 08:44 PM
Every side x side bird gun I've ever used was configured this way.
You snick off the safety ( it's right on the tang) on the way to shouldering it.
Becomes second nature quickly.

QFT.

I shoot clays informally pretty regularly durning the warm months in NM. I use a savage SxS in .410, and the safety operates in this exact fashion. As anyone that has shot clays can tell you, the shots develop quickly (very quickly if your using a little .410). I leave my gun on safe and in the ready position until the bird is in the air (see, informal, and hardly good technique), the safety slides off as I begin tracking the bird and am shouldering the gun. In the thousands of times I've done this, I've never failed to disengage the safety. It is a very natural thing once you learn it.

VolGrad
01-06-2012, 08:21 AM
I actually had a Double Defense for a while, in 12 gauge. It was actually...you know what, it was awesome as hell and I wish I'd never sold it. I put an aimpoint on mine, and it was about as dirt-simple an HD gun as you can get.

Caleb ... Did you ever do a review of this gun or blog about it? I searched your site but each time I tried to click past page 1 of the results it takes me back to the home page.

VolGrad
01-06-2012, 08:31 AM
Random thought for the day ....

I was just reading Jay's "Mission drives the Gear Train" thread .... well I got about 4 pages into it before I stopped reading because it had turned into a pissing match about what constitutes "cruiser ready". Great OP in that thread Jay. I appreciate the thought that went into compiling all the recs, why, and typing it all up.

Anyway, I started thinking about what all people put on their carbines ... just in case. That thought wandered into, "What are the odds one would ever need all those accessories?" As I like to play devil's advocate from time to time I started thinking, "The odds are probably just about the same as someone using a Double Defense w/ 2 rd capacity (and more on board in a butt cuff) and a white light attached wishing he had more stuff attached." Don't get me wrong. I am NOT arguing against a well equipped Carbine for HD. Personally, that would be my ideal HD gun behind a pistol. I'm just saying it's not practical for everyone's situation.

What I'm saying is it's an odds game either way. I am NOT saying this particular weapon choice is the best choice for HD. I'm not even saying it's really a practical choice at all. I'm just saying it's cool as hell and I want one so I'm trying to justify why it makes sense. :o

My go-to HD gun is and always will be a handgun. Any long gun would be a supplement to it.

TAP
01-06-2012, 09:12 AM
Everything is an odd's game. You take a chance every time you step out of your house and get in a car. I try make the best rational decision I can at the time and move on.

jlw
01-06-2012, 09:32 AM
Random thought for the day ....

I was just reading Jay's "Mission drives the Gear Train" thread .... well I got about 4 pages into it before I stopped reading because it had turned into a pissing match about what constitutes "cruiser ready". Great OP in that thread Jay. I appreciate the thought that went into compiling all the recs, why, and typing it all up.

Anyway, I started thinking about what all people put on their carbines ... just in case. That thought wandered into, "What are the odds one would ever need all those accessories?" As I like to play devil's advocate from time to time I started thinking, "The odds are probably just about the same as someone using a Double Defense w/ 2 rd capacity (and more on board in a butt cuff) and a white light attached wishing he had more stuff attached." Don't get me wrong. I am NOT arguing against a well equipped Carbine for HD. Personally, that would be my ideal HD gun behind a pistol. I'm just saying it's not practical for everyone's situation.

What I'm saying is it's an odds game either way. I am NOT saying this particular weapon choice is the best choice for HD. I'm not even saying it's really a practical choice at all. I'm just saying it's cool as hell and I want one so I'm trying to justify why it makes sense. :o

My go-to HD gun is and always will be a handgun. Any long gun would be a supplement to it.

Thus the reason why my "social" carbines and shotguns sport lights and no other contraptions...

Zhurdan
01-06-2012, 09:51 AM
Owned a Stoeger coach gun for years while I was doing the whole SASS thing. Fun little gun, the wife enjoyed shooting it too. Handy as all get out and fast on target. Really is a natural "pointer".

Now, as far as reloads, it's definitely not as fast as a auto-loader, of course, but I got pretty damn fast with it, even when on the move for a stage in SASS. It wouldn't be my first choice, but by damn, they are fun fun fun to shoot.

peterb
01-06-2012, 10:04 AM
And if you shoot it a lot just because it's fun/cool, you're better off than if you had a "better" weapon you rarely used.

Al T.
01-06-2012, 10:17 AM
Stray thoughts...

I have a pair of 870s ready to go due to the ability to select loads. I live in the suburbs and want the limited penetration that Remington's Home Defense BB shot gives me for the first couple of rounds (followed by buckshot) and the ability to select a slug if the situation dictates.

I have my Dad's 12 ga 1100 that was made in 1965. It runs like a champ with minimal maintenance. Mossberg produced the Yugo of autoshucking shotguns. So, like driving a Yugo and applying that experience to judging a Honda's suitability for providing a nice ride, having the Mossberg poison your thoughts on other good shotguns is not good.

Don't overlook the 20 ga as a very viable defensive round. A deer drive club I used to belong to have several members using 20 ga shotguns with buckshot and it killed deer DRT.

Two rounds of buckshot is still a very formidable weapon. I wouldn't feel underarmed at all if that's what I had. See video for details. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw

VolGrad
01-06-2012, 10:37 AM
And if you shoot it a lot just because it's fun/cool, you're better off than if you had a "better" weapon you rarely used.

QFT.

This was my argument all along as to why I don't get excited about auto-loading or pump shotguns. They are awesome ... in someone else's hands, not mine.

Ed L
01-06-2012, 05:25 PM
As I like to play devil's advocate from time to time I started thinking, "The odds are probably just about the same as someone using a Double Defense w/ 2 rd capacity (and more on board in a butt cuff) and a white light attached wishing he had more stuff attached."

In this case you can buy a repeating shotgun for the same price or less than the double which needs to be reloaded after two shots.

Having to reload every two shots is a limitation--you may be facing multiple attackers, may miss and need to fire another shot, or may need to fire another shot because the first one did not stop the attacker, or any combination of these.

Reloading a double barrel requires you remove your hand from the gun and thus break your firing grip as well as take your eye off the threat, as opposed to simply pumping a pump gun during recoil and bringing the gun back on target and ready to fire.

Most side-by sides don't eject the fired case which requires you pull them out before loading a new round. There is also the potential to fumble a reload when trying to slip the round into the barrel. This is something that you must do every two shots with a double.

Also note that there is no LE agency in the US that issues double barrelled shotguns and hasn't been in some time. That should be a huge clue.

On p. 44 of his book Stressfire II, Massad Ayoob considers the double barrelled shotgun to be Obsolete for antipersonel use for a century. I may not agree with everything he writes, but I agree with him on this issue.


What I'm saying is it's an odds game either way. I am NOT saying this particular weapon choice is the best choice for HD. I'm not even saying it's really a practical choice at all. I'm just saying it's cool as hell and I want one so I'm trying to justify why it makes sense. :o

Cool as hell is a good reason to get something. That's why you see one pictured with some of my other longarms.

jar
01-06-2012, 06:13 PM
Cool as hell is a perfectly valid reason to buy a gun. Why try to rationalize any other reason?

VolGrad
01-07-2012, 12:09 PM
Went to my LGS today to see if they had on in stock. They didn't but had another Stoeger coach gun I could handle. They are ordering my Double Defense in 12ga on Monday. They needed to re-stock anyway so said they would order a few of them.

peterb
01-07-2012, 02:52 PM
Excellent! Keep us posted on how you like it.

Your posts got me thinking. One of my visions for a "cool" double would be more steampunk-ish -- start with a standard coach gun, and find someone to make polished brass housings for a flashlight and perhaps an optic....

If we were all the same it'd be a dull old world.

JodyH
01-07-2012, 06:33 PM
Also note that there is no LE agency in the US that issues double barrelled shotguns and hasn't been in some time. That should be a huge clue.

On p. 44 of his book Stressfire II, Massad Ayoob considers the double barrelled shotgun to be Obsolete for antipersonel use for a century. I may not agree with everything he writes, but I agree with him on this issue.

LEO and homeowner shotgun uses will be different.
LEO shotgun use will be more offensive, homeowner use will be defensive.

"Obsolete for antipersonnel use" is a rather bold statement.
I would guess that homeowner use of a shotgun rarely exceeds one round fired much less two. Even against multiple bad guys.
If there's any gun that has a solid "one shot stop" track record at home defense ranges it would be a shotgun with #00.
And every cop who's brought one out will tell you a shotgun is a game changer when it comes to crowd control.
Gangsters who laugh when a handgun is pointed at them come to Jesus when a shotgun is aimed their direction.
Is a SxS the best choice? No.
Is it obsolete? Not by a long shot.

jlw
01-07-2012, 06:47 PM
In this case you can buy a repeating shotgun for the same price or less than the double which needs to be reloaded after two shots.

Having to reload every two shots is a limitation--you may be facing multiple attackers, may miss and need to fire another shot, or may need to fire another shot because the first one did not stop the attacker, or any combination of these.

Reloading a double barrel requires you remove your hand from the gun and thus break your firing grip as well as take your eye off the threat, as opposed to simply pumping a pump gun during recoil and bringing the gun back on target and ready to fire.

Most side-by sides don't eject the fired case which requires you pull them out before loading a new round. There is also the potential to fumble a reload when trying to slip the round into the barrel. This is something that you must do every two shots with a double.

Also note that there is no LE agency in the US that issues double barrelled shotguns and hasn't been in some time. That should be a huge clue.

On p. 44 of his book Stressfire II, Massad Ayoob considers the double barrelled shotgun to be Obsolete for antipersonel use for a century. I may not agree with everything he writes, but I agree with him on this issue.



Cool as hell is a good reason to get something. That's why you see one pictured with some of my other longarms.


Are you absolutely certain that no LE agency in the US that issues double barreled shotguns? There are over 17,000 LE agencies in the U.S. I'm willing to bet that at least one still has a SxS in inventory and use. In fact, I'm pretty certain of it... :rolleyes:

The Ayoob also teaches that doble action pistols should be carried with the safety engaged...

TGS
01-07-2012, 06:59 PM
Is a SxS the best choice? No.
Is it obsolete? Not by a long shot.

Bingo.

Still, I don't see the point of the tacticool SxS unless it just gets you going and you've got hundreds of bucks to burn. I'd rather spend the money on a nice SxS bird gun since it'll do the same thing if someone breaks in. I have a love for them....I grew up using a Browning 20ga SxS for hunting quail and pheasant, pretty much exclusively. Shit.....Rather than buy that tacticool SxS, I'd rather buy a bunch of Lorcin, Jenning, Raven and Jimenez's to take part in the unofficial P-F.com Saturday Night Special FAST tournament :p.

I've got a spanish Gaspar Arizaga 12ga SxS with a broken stock. We found it in the attic when we moved in. They don't make stocks for them, and I guess it's a half-rate shotgun prone to mechanical breakage. Too bad...I love SxS shotguns. I've thought about taking it to one of those police trade-in events where they give you $100 gift cards at a grocery store for your gun. I saw a gaspar go for about $40 online, so I'd be making out.

Ed L
01-07-2012, 07:00 PM
LEO and homeowner shotgun uses will be different.
LEO shotgun use will be more offensive, homeowner use will be defensive.

This is true. Civilians are not responding to calls. But you can find many instances where civilians have had to fire more than one or two shots in a home defense situation.

There is always the possibility of misses, people who may need to be shot more than once, and more than two home invaders, and any combination of the three. Given these factors, along with the fact that you can have a good pump gun for less than the price of a double, I question the sense of choosing to buy a double over a pump gun if you are buying a gun specifically for home defense.

Then when you start talking about things like adding a red dot sight on the rail I have to think you would be better off spending the money that you would have spent for the railed double and the red dot sight on a shotgun that does not have to be reloaded every two rounds.

As potent as a shotgun is on an individual shot basis, I personally know three people who were present when a single blast of 00 did not put someone down.

Yes, the pump gun takes a bit more training. But this is a forum of people who train including instructors, Military & LEOs, and at least one contestant of America's Top Shot, if I remember correctly.

If you are looking for sheer simplicity for a non dedicated person who is going to buy a gun shoot it once and put it away, I would consider the revolver a better choice than a double barrrelled shotgun as you don't have to worry about remembering to disengag a safety on a revolver, nor do you have to deal with a a sefety that automatically engages itself upon closing the gun.

Ed L
01-07-2012, 07:09 PM
Are you absolutely certain that no LE agency in the US that issues double barreled shotguns? There are over 17,000 LE agencies in the U.S. I'm willing to bet that at least one still has a SxS in inventory and use. In fact, I'm pretty certain of it... :rolleyes:

I am sure you could find one or two somewhere that has some left over from the early part of the 20th centrury and due to budget reasons and lack of anything else throws one in a ptrol car, but the fact that the overwhelming majority of them don't is a telling fact.

Inventory and issuing are two different things. There are agencies that still have Thompson SMGS and Browning Automatic Rifles in their inventories. I don't think you will see many of them riding in partrol cars or being used by their SWAT teams.

jlw
01-07-2012, 07:14 PM
I am sure you could find one or two somewhere that has some left over from the early part of the 20th centrury and due to budget reasons and lack of anything else throws one in a ptrol car, but the fact that the overwhelming majority of them don't is a telling fact.

Inventory and issuing are two different things. There are agencies that still have Thompson SMGS and Browning Automatic Rifles in their inventories. I don't think you will see many of them riding in partrol cars or being used by their SWAT teams.


Note the :rolleyes:. That's a hint that I know of some in use, actual use.

Ed L
01-07-2012, 07:23 PM
Note the :rolleyes:. That's a hint that I know of some in use, actual use.

I don't doubt it in a country as big as the US there are bound to be some leftovers. The point is the vast majority of them don't and haven't for some time for obvious reasons.

Imagine if some agency was procuring new shotguns and you suggested that they buy doubles instead of pumps or semiautos designed for LE use. I don't think it would fly and you would probably get some strange looks.

jlw
01-07-2012, 07:32 PM
I don't doubt it in a country as big as the US there are bound to be some leftovers. The point is the vast majority of them don't and haven't for some time for obvious reasons.

Imagine if some agency was procuring new shotguns and you suggested that they buy doubles instead of pumps or semiautos designed for LE use. I don't think it would fly and you would probably get some strange looks.

Your statement was that no agencies were using them. That statement is not correct.

You now assert that those in use are leftovers. That statement is not correct either. Aside from front line applications, there are also specialty applications to consider such as door breaching and less lethal.

Ed L
01-07-2012, 07:52 PM
Your statement was that no agencies were using them. That statement is not correct.

You now assert that those in use are leftovers. That statement is not correct either. Aside from front line applications, there are also specialty applications to consider such as door breaching and less lethal.

I was/am talking about in an issued or approved patrol capacity or other capacity where it is intended for lethal force use against a hostile person, as should be obvious from the context of the thread and my statements. I am not talking about breaching or less lethal.

The thread is not about breaching shotguns or less lethal shotguns. The person who started the thread did not ask about a breaching shotgun or a lesslethal shotgun or using the shotgun in question in such a capacity. The discussion of this thread is clearly about home defense shotguns.

VolGrad
01-07-2012, 07:56 PM
Is a SxS the best choice? No.
Is it obsolete? Not by a long shot.
Agree 100%.

Still, I don't see the point of the tacticool SxS unless it just gets you going and you've got hundreds of bucks to burn.
Bingo. :D

There is always the possibility of misses, people who may need to be shot more than once, and more than two home invaders, and any combination of the three. Given these factors, along with the fact that you can have a good pump gun for less than the price of a double, I question the sense of choosing to buy a double over a pump gun if you are buying a gun specifically for home defense.

Then when you start talking about things like adding a red dot sight on the rail I have to think you would be better off spending the money that you would have spent for the railed double and the red dot sight on a shotgun that does not have to be reloaded every two rounds.

I can only speak for me but let me turn the first statement around a bit. I am buying one of these because I think it's cool as hell. Because I have no other practical reason to buy one I am saying it's for HD. It's not like it would make a carry weapon anyway, right?

Yes, you can buy a decent pump gun for less. However, I've already addressed that several times. I also have no plans to put a red dot on this shotgun. I am not even going to install the top rail. I already have several different choices for white light on hand. I already have a stockpile of Ranger Low Recoil Buckshot on hand as well. There will be no additional expense beyond the shotgun itself.

jlw
01-07-2012, 07:58 PM
I was/am talking about in an issued or approved patrol capacity or other capacity where it is intended for lethal force use against a hostile person, as should be obvious from the context of the thread and my statements. I am not talking about breaching or less lethal.

The thread is not about breaching shotguns or less lethal shotguns. The person who started the thread did not ask about a breaching shotgun or a lesslethal shotgun or using the shotgun in question in such a capacity. The discussion of this thread is clearly about home defense shotguns.


Sir, you said no agency was using them. That is clearly not correct. There are cops that tote them on patrol by choice (I have firsthand knowledge of this), and there are specialty applications for which they are actually chosen.

VolGrad
01-07-2012, 08:00 PM
I was/am talking about in an issued or approved patrol capacity or other capacity where it is intended for lethal force use against a hostile person, as should be obvious from the context of the thread and my statements. I am not talking about breaching or less lethal.
The Chief can speak for himself (and I'm sure he will), however, it must remembered there are many, many, many LEO agencies out there and not all are mainstream. As the guy that signs the form for all weapons approved for duty use (for his agency) he might be on to something. The funny thing is the Sheriff is planning to buy himself one of these too ... after seeing my posts. I see him sporting an old school wheel gun on duty quite frequently. :)

Ed L
01-07-2012, 08:09 PM
Sir, you said no agency was using them. That is clearly not correct. There are cops that tote them on patrol by choice (I have firsthand knowledge of this), and there are specialty applications for which they are actually chosen.

Okay, I was making a generalization and I was wrong--like when someone says 'no one does it anymore' and there are actually some people left who indeed 'do it,' but what the person really means is almost no one does it. It is an colloquialism that people often use in speech which is imprecise in the written word that we are dealing with here.

In fact, it probably should not be used in written communication because of its imprecision.

I was wrong. I admit it.

Are you happy?

The thread clearly isn't about breahing or lesslethal shotguns or that use or specialty applications, and that is not what anyone but you were referencing.

TGS
01-07-2012, 08:13 PM
Okay, I was making a generalization and I was wrong--like when someone says 'no one does it anymore' and there are actually some people left who indeed 'do it,' but what the person really means is almost no one does it. It is an colloquialism that people often use in speech which is imprecise in the written word that we are dealing with here.

In fact, it probably should not be used in written communication because of its imprecision.

I was wrong. I admit it.

Are you happy?

The thread clearly isn't about breahing or lesslethal shotguns or that use or specialty applications, and that is not what anyone but you were referencing.

OMFG.

jlw
01-07-2012, 08:18 PM
Okay, I was making a generalization and I was wrong--like when someone says 'no one does it anymore' and there are actually some people left who indeed 'do it,' but what the person really means is almost no one does it. It is an colloquialism that people often use in speech which is imprecise in the written word that we are dealing with here.

I was wrong. I admit it.

Are you happy?

The thread clearly isn't about breahing or lesslethal shotguns or that use or specialty applications, and that is not what anyone but you were referencing.


Easy now. You said "no". You failed to take into account the specialty applications, but once you clarified Patrol use, I pointed out that I have firsthand knowledge of patrol cops that carry them by choice.

I'm all for people carrying/using platforms with which they are comfortable. I personally use an old 870P. VolGrad is choosing to arm himself with a SXS, and his reasons are perfectly valid for him. He wants it to protect his home and family. He isn't taking it out on patrol.

VolGrad
01-18-2012, 08:42 PM
I picked it up today, brought it home, then mounted a DD offset light mount for a SureFire G2LED. It's pretty sweet. I'll get some pics later. I love the compact size. It is pretty tight still so I need to work the action a bunch and find the sweet spot for lube so it opens easier.

Wheeler
02-07-2012, 09:20 PM
I picked it up today, brought it home, then mounted a DD offset light mount for a SureFire G2LED. It's pretty sweet. I'll get some pics later. I love the compact size. It is pretty tight still so I need to work the action a bunch and find the sweet spot for lube so it opens easier.

Come shoot some clays with it. It will get you used to the safety and the manual of arms.

VolGrad
02-07-2012, 09:23 PM
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd208/volgrad/57990f8b.jpg

LeeC
02-10-2012, 06:29 AM
Nice!

My only shotgun is a Mossberg 500 Tactical, but if Kel Tec ever gets a production run into distribution on their bullpup KSG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi0OWQCkcVc) 7+7+1 shotgun, I might have to have one. And someday maybe an AA-12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8) :cool:

The first and only side-by-side I ever shot was my Granddad's 10-gauge goose gun when I was about 10 years old. Thing must have been 5 feet long and weighed 20 pounds, or at least it seemed that way at the time. I was so worried about the kick and had such a death grip on the gun that I managed to pull both triggers at the same time. Somehow I was able to remain standing, but I thought my Granddad would fall over laughing. For some reason I haven't been too drawn to double barrel guns since then.

Long tom coffin
03-07-2012, 07:13 PM
You are THE man. I'm glad you saw this and posted. It is definitely on my want list. I'll be calling some of my usual outlets as time permits to see if I can rustle up a good deal on one.

Keep the feedback coming though guys.

I have one, and I have not sold it :)

I purchased mine used from my local fun shop, only a few rounds for it. I love it. It is one of multiple HD weapons that I now have, but originally it was my first, and I selected it primarily because I needed something short (I was in a townhouse at the time with very constrictive hallways), powerful (12 ga!), and something I could put a flashlight on (the light switches in the townhouse were in really odd and inconvenient places). I was also untrained on pump shotguns at the time and was exceedingly worried about possibly short stroking the action in a real home invasion.

I still have it, I still love it, and it is also my wife's preferred HD weapon when I am not at home. We have organized and practice a stairway defense strategy for her and the stoeger serves its purpose admirably in that role.

When I first got it, I took it out to the local shotgun range in the bottoms and put cardboard targets in a straight line at increments from 5 to 40 yards. Despite its relatively short barrel, I found the stoeger patterns really well out to 25 yards with the federal "flight control" shells I was using.

Granted, I don't put nearly as many rounds through my shotguns as I do my carbines and handguns, but for the ~1000 rounds I've put through it, it has run like a champ.

VolGrad
03-07-2012, 07:27 PM
Where's the "like" button.

I've taken some crap for purchasing this but you've presented the same reasons as me for choosing it as one of many HD tools in the box.

JHC
03-07-2012, 07:47 PM
Where's the "like" button.

I've taken some crap for purchasing this but you've presented the same reasons as me for choosing it as one of many HD tools in the box.

Same thought crosses my mind all the time here. I think that shottie is cool as hell and a fine choice for its role.

jlw
03-07-2012, 07:53 PM
Where's the "like" button.

I've taken some crap for purchasing this but you've presented the same reasons as me for choosing it as one of many HD tools in the box.


And for once, it isn't come from me...

Long tom coffin
03-07-2012, 10:00 PM
Where's the "like" button.

I've taken some crap for purchasing this but you've presented the same reasons as me for choosing it as one of many HD tools in the box.

The one thing I hear all the time is "Why are you using a CAS gun for HD?" :D. Apparently the only stoeger products that people are really familiar with are their coach guns.

VolGrad
03-27-2012, 06:18 AM
Rich Grassi article in the Tactical Wire on double bbl shotguns.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?tab=wm#inbox/13653a90311ec79d

jlw
03-27-2012, 07:45 AM
At the IALEFI course I attended two weeks ago, they mentioned an agency in New Jersey that only recently retired their SxS shotties. They also talked about NYPD detectives using SxSs.

TGS
03-27-2012, 10:10 AM
They also talked about NYPD detectives using SxSs.


The truth:


700

:cool:

jmjames
03-27-2012, 10:24 AM
The number of conversations at P-F.com which have screen caps from Miami Vice of Ricardo Tubbs and a shotgun, and it is appropriate to the conversation, is striking. Is Tubbs like the Jeff Cooper of the shotgun or something? :confused:

J.Ja

VolGrad
03-27-2012, 10:31 AM
The number of conversations at P-F.com which have screen caps from Miami Vice of Ricardo Tubbs and a shotgun, and it is appropriate to the conversation, is striking. Is Tubbs like the Jeff Cooper of the shotgun or something? :confused:

J.Ja

Hell, I thought that was Michael Jackson at first glance. :p

jmjames
03-27-2012, 10:40 AM
Hell, I thought that was Michael Jackson at first glance. :p

Do you need to borrow my Miami Vice box set? Just say the word...

J.Ja

VolGrad
03-27-2012, 12:24 PM
Do you need to borrow my Miami Vice box set? Just say the word...

J.Ja

Don't tempt me. I used to love the show but think it best left to the memory of how great it was rather than the reality of how cheesy it would be if watching it now. I've been disappointed to re-watch old shows too many times to start now. TJ Hooker comes to mind.

NickA
03-27-2012, 02:02 PM
Don't tempt me. I used to love the show but think it best left to the memory of how great it was rather than the reality of how cheesy it would be if watching it now. I've been disappointed to re-watch old shows too many times to start now. TJ Hooker comes to mind.

Blasphemy! :)

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