NYPD to armor all patrol cars and command vehicles

[TGS]

3800 patrol cars(!)
72 command vehicles(!)

$4 million? That won't even come close to armoring that many vehicles.

I wonder what level and coverage the armor will be, and what the effects will be on the vehicle's longevity, efficiency, and performance.

http://nypost.com/2017/07/10/senate-secures-4m-to-bulletproof-nypd-cop-cars/

[LOKNLOD]

I don't think you could even spray them all with Linex for that much. Let alone up-armor them.

[TGS]

I don't think you could even spray them all with Linex for that much. Let alone up-armor them.

Doing some searching, it looks like the Ford factory armor door panels are $1000 each.

Even if you were to do two doors per patrol vehicle, at 3800 patrol cars + installation you're already double that budget....and that doesn't even cover your windows or command trucks.

[voodoo_man]

Windshields, windows, door panels, that's pretty expensive for every vehicle, even for every patrol vehicle still a lot.

I also still think it's total bullshit that it takes years of officers being shot inside vehicles before that PD decides to make any changes.

[LOKNLOD]

Maybe they found a lower-cost alternate:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170710/f937fc6076a6d64e52c6bce07fbfd6cb.jpg

[Peally]

1. Christ New York is cheap.
2. For 4 million Ford is either giving armor packages away for near free or those police better have a quick reaction when they use their car armor AKA hand held SAPI plate.

[TAZ]

They will start with the mayor's car, the chiefs car and stop when they run out if $$. The lowly patrol guy will see his panels in 2027.

$$ would be better spent wiping violent shitheads off the streets permanently instead of revolving doors. But then what do I know.

[Totem Polar]

3800 patrol cars(!)
72 command vehicles(!)

$4 million? That won't even come close to armoring that many vehicles.


Is there anyone in upper admin, anywhere, that can find their ass with both hands when it comes to real-word logistics?

[txdpd]

We have armor panels in a few newer cars, because we have a bunch of lazy fucks that can't reach over to the door close and kick them against the hinges, they are already going out of service with broken door hinges. And that's with reinforced hinges.

$4 million sounds about right. Up armor 20 cars, let the patrol guys break them, stop because "you boys ruin everything" and spend $3.5 million on a pet project.

[blues]

Is there anyone in upper admin, anywhere, that can find their ass with both hands when it comes to real-word logistics?

17973

"You rang?"

[voodoo_man]

We have armor panels in a few newer cars, because we have a bunch of lazy fucks that can't reach over to the door close and kick them against the hinges, they are already going out of service with broken door hinges. And that's with reinforced hinges.

$4 million sounds about right. Up armor 20 cars, let the patrol guys break them, stop because "you boys ruin everything" and spend $3.5 million on a pet project.

Had a guy I work with used to do that all the time. Like not even hold the door when he's getting in just kicked the door each time. Fat lazy fucker he was.

[Trooper224]

I'm sure that's enough, at least enough to equip the cars of everyone holding the rank of Deputy Chief and above.

[NickA]

I'd bet somebody's buddy is going to get that $4 million for a "feasibility study" that will last until the furor dies down.

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[heyscooter]

Just buy new vehicles. It will only be that much more than basically retrofitting any car that has the proper setup to take on the extra weight AND be the patrol car it needs to be in NYC. Forget any older vehicles (just not even worth it for lifespan issues) and I would wager any of their newer vehicles will have those new lighter unibody chassis that can't handle the weight. 4 Million isn't even scratching the surface when it comes to pricing out costs, installation, maintenance on any sort of armored non tactical vehicle.

I love FAVs but I also hate them.

[TGS]

Just buy new vehicles. It will only be that much more than basically retrofitting any car that has the proper setup to take on the extra weight AND be the patrol car it needs to be in NYC. Forget any older vehicles (just not even worth it for lifespan issues) and I would wager any of their newer vehicles will have those new lighter unibody chassis that can't handle the weight. 4 Million isn't even scratching the surface when it comes to pricing out costs, installation, maintenance on any sort of armored non tactical vehicle.

I love FAVs but I also hate them.

While up-armored, I can't imagine they're even considering FAVs. That's completely impractical in almost every facet for a patrol car.

[heyscooter]

While up-armored, I can't imagine they're even considering FAVs. That's completely impractical in almost every facet for a patrol car.

No you're right, I should've clarified that while FAVs are not the solution here, the concepts are the same: You're going to weigh down a car, even if you're considering glass and paneling for, say, the front cab portion. I've driven a Toyota Hilux pickup that only has the armor for the cab, and the weight gain is still considerable. I'm not aware of a non-tactical armored setup (FAV or LAV) that is going to not affect this.

[Coyotesfan97]

We get the factory ballistic panels in our cars. I thinks it's 3A. Doors are heavier but not bad.

[Hambo]

They will start with the mayor's car, the chiefs car and stop when they run out if $$.

I'd be willing to bet the mayor and PC's vehicles are already armored.

[Luger]

As far as I understand the article, the state of NY supports the city of NY with the 4.000.000$. So I guess the budget will be more than 4.000.000$.

[heyscooter]

I'd be willing to bet the mayor and PC's vehicles are already armored.

That'd be something, and wouldn't surprise me. If I recall when the PC drove past me one time in 2012 in NYC and it didn't look armored.

[Skroob]

$4M will buy a lot of phone books they can then put in the door panels....what's left over will be for glass....what's the going rate of a gently used phone book nowadays?


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[Mr. Goodtimes]

I've wondered for a while how long it was going to take for PD's to start up armoring patrol vehicles. Perhaps I'm a little paranoid but I still think officers that take their cars home and park them in the driveway are nuts. Apparently some of them do too, though, as there are seven that park their cars at my fire station.


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[TGS]

I've wondered for a while how long it was going to take for PD's to start up armoring patrol vehicles.

I think there's a point of diminishing returns. Unless you go with Fully Armored Vehicles (FAVs), cops will still be killed sitting in their patrol car as the coverage will be very limited. It will almost assuredly have to be limited to door panels (maybe this is a plus with the high beltline on the Taurus?).

Armored glass is very heavy and presents a number of problems; unless it's made from the factory like BMW's factory armored vehicles, you likely can't roll down the windows. The suspension will fucking destroy itself well before any police car is used to. 300,000 miles on a cop car? Not with a heavily armored cop car that will give enough coverage to actually protect from ambush/assassinations. Think 30,000 miles if you're really nice to the car and do mostly easy highway miles. Think 10-15,000 for actual use. We have FAV Suburbans that are 6,000 miles and ready to throw in the towel....think an Impala is going to fair any better?

Door hinges and latching mechanisms break, as evidenced even by some members here with their personal experience on very lightly armored police cars featuring only the door panels. Literally everything on the vehicle becomes stressed and will fail prematurely. The glass will delaminate with prolonged exposure to the sun, which will be incredibly expensive to maintain on a fleet. We routinely have to replace glass at our armored vehicle "Depot" before they even get shipped out.

In the end, I think to armor police vehicles to prevent these sorts of incidents is shortsighted and knee-jerk. The only realistic solution for armoring cruisers and pursuit vehicles.....door panels.....would not prevent these sorts of incidents to begin with, so incidents like this shouldn't be a driving force in the decision making on whether to up-armor police cars.

IMO.

[heyscooter]

The armor basically has to be life cycled just like PPE anyone else carries. Don't forget the training needed to learn how to drive higher speeds with a high center of gravity vehicle. They become Lincoln town boats and could get someone hurt if you don't know what you're doing. It will take some additional training on vehicle dynamics to ensure people know how to drive them safely.

I was never a city cop so I have no frame of reference for a suggestion as it pertains to NYPD, but wouldn't a tactics change be the more practical approach?

[farscott]

The cynic in me says that the whole purpose of the story is the following:

1) Convince voters that politicians are doing something.

2) Hope that people actually believe that all of the NYPD patrol vehicles are armored so that fewer people decide to walk up to a patrol vehicle and unload into it.

The really cynical part of me knows that the people who released the story are not smart enough to think of 2) as they solely underestimated the cost to armor and maintain armored vehicles. It would be less expensive to have fed.gov provide MRAPs than to use up-armored cruisers. But "the optics" of NYPD patrolling in MRAPs would be horrible....

[Erick Gelhaus]

2) Hope that people actually believe that all of the NYPD patrol vehicles are armored so that fewer people decide to walk up to a patrol vehicle and unload into it.


"A" problem with that is the public then believes (or has) that all cop cars are armorered and one doesn't need to pre-empt or return fire because they are protected from incoming rounds. People really says things like that too.

[txdpd]

I was never a city cop so I have no frame of reference for a suggestion as it pertains to NYPD, but wouldn't a tactics change be the more practical approach?

NYPD operates in as close to an infinite degree threat environment as anyone is going to get. They could change some tactics, but there's no escaping the reality of the world they operate in. If there's a PD that needs armored cars it's NYPD.

[blues]

A less expensive solution might be to have a looping recording of Al Sharpton's voice playing over the loud hailer saying "Don't shoot, these nice police are giving me a ride to an event! Support your local police!"

[peterb]

Ok, serious question. What would you do with the $4 million to improve patrol officer safety in the NYPD?

[TGS]

Ok, serious question. What would you do with the $4 million to improve patrol officer safety in the NYPD?

That's a tough question, because $4m would be a good sum of money for a 1000 officer PD to do something with.

A 36,000 officer PD? $4m is so small that there's no meaningful improvement it can accomplish. That's not going to get you a notably increased amount of officers on shift, it's not going to get you a significantly different training/readiness regimen, etc. You can fill some gaps on specific programs or precincts, but it's not an amount of money that will do anything department wide.

[txdpd]

Ok, serious question. What would you do with the $4 million to improve patrol officer safety in the NYPD?

External vest carriers and suspenders for patrol officers. It's a lot easier to not sit in a vehicle when your back doesn't hurt all the time.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Ok, serious question. What would you do with the $4 million to improve patrol officer safety in the NYPD?


That's a tough question, because $4m would be a good sum of money for a 1000 officer PD to do something with.

A 36,000 officer PD? $4m is so small that there's no meaningful improvement it can accomplish. That's not going to get you a notably increased amount of officers on shift, it's not going to get you a significantly different training/readiness regimen, etc. You can fill some gaps on specific programs or precincts, but it's not an amount of money that will do anything department wide.

Honestly, I'd sink it all into ammo for training.

[voodoo_man]

Honestly, I'd sink it all into ammo for training.

Hey, that's common sense logic talk there, better keep that type of thing to yourself. Only way to make it to the rank of top brass is to completely purge that from yourself.

[TGS]

Honestly, I'd sink it all into ammo for training.

Again, you're dealing with 36,000 sworn personnel.

Even if you say we're going to sink $4m into ammo, but only for about 20,000 cops, that still only works out to a one-time (this isn't a renewable/recurring fund) supply of about 1500-2000 rounds per officer. I don't care how pro-firearm or enthusiastic about skill development anyone is.....that is not a good use of funds.

So, again, we're back to the basic truth that $4m is really only enough to plug holes in specific programs when you're talking about a police department that is larger than most of the world's armies.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Again, you're dealing with 36,000 sworn personnel.

Even if you say we're going to sink $4m into ammo, but only for about 20,000 cops, that still only works out to a one-time (this isn't a renewable/recurring fund) supply of about 1500-2000 rounds per officer. I don't care how pro-firearm or enthusiastic about skill development anyone is.....that is not a good use of funds.

So, again, we're back to the basic truth that $4m is really only enough to plug holes in specific programs when you're talking about a police department that is larger than most of the world's armies.

True, but it is my understanding that it is a lot more than they currently get.

$4M / 36k doesn't leave a lot of meat on the bone, and I figure that a little more range fodder is likely to be the most bang-for-the-buck considering those numbers.

[HCM]

Honestly, I'd sink it all into ammo for training.

Ammo is the cheapest part of LE training. The real cost is the man hours. As TGS said, for NYPD $4 Million is a drop in the bucket.

Not to mention facility and staff time to conduct that training. They shoot 2x per year - and qualify 1,000 officers per week.

To see any real benefit from that ammo 99% of the officers would need structured practice / drills with feedback.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Ammo is the cheapest part of LE training. The real cost is the man hours. As TGS said, for NYPD $4 Million is a drop in the bucket.

Not to mention facility and staff time to conduct that training. They shoot 2x per year - and qualify 1,000 officers per week.

To see any real benefit from that ammo 99% of the officers would need structured practice / drills with feedback.

Understood.
I don't know if this is still the case, but 15 years ago, the local PD's indoor range had two cardboard 55 gallon drums....one full of 9mm and one of .38 Special. Officers could come in and shoot to their heart's content, but on their own time/ no OT.

[HCM]

Understood.
I don't know if this is still the case, but 15 years ago, the local PD's indoor range had two cardboard 55 gallon drums....one full of 9mm and one of .38 Special. Officers could come in and shoot to their heart's content, but on their own time/ no OT.

Local PD in Texas or the Dakotas is not NYPD. You are drawing from groups with two very different cultures.

While NYPD certainly has some cops who can shoot and are gun people, they are a minority. Pat Rogers and Jim Cirillo for example were anomalies. Many of the "gun people" who do pass through NYPD get sick of NY's anti gun culture and move on to fed agencies or LE jobs in "free America" states like Florida, Pennsylvania etc.

Most NY cops won't shoot on their own time so giving out practice ammo is out as most would wind up sold or sitting in someone's basement. For those who do want to go shoot, voluntary open range days with some coaching and feed back is going to be far more productive than simply turning Ammo into noise.

[heyscooter]

NYPD operates in as close to an infinite degree threat environment as anyone is going to get. They could change some tactics, but there's no escaping the reality of the world they operate in. If there's a PD that needs armored cars it's NYPD.

I agree that NYPD (or any other officer of a major metropolitan police department even) deals with a heightened level of risk, statistically speaking. I'm not sure I agree that armored cars is the solution to mitigate that risk.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Local PD in Texas or the Dakotas is not NYPD. You are drawing from groups with two very different cultures.

While NYPD certainly has some cops who can shoot and are gun people, they are a minority. Pat Rogers and Jim Cirillo for example were anomalies. Many of the "gun people" who do pass through NYPD get sick of NY's anti gun culture and move on to fed agencies or LE jobs in "free America" states like Florida, Pennsylvania etc.

Most NY cops won't shoot on their own time so giving out practice ammo is out as most would wind up sold or sitting in someone's basement. For those who do want to go shoot, voluntary open range days with some coaching and feed back is going to be far more productive than simply turning Ammo into noise.

Understood, and agree. Probably only 10% or so took advantage of it. I recall Mas Ayoob writing decades ago, quoting the NYPD firearms guy then, that the average NY cop would rather have a nice Parker pen than a custom S&W. I can't imagine that things have improved in that regard.

[voodoo_man]

Understood, and agree. Probably only 10% or so took advantage of it. I recall Mas Ayoob writing decades ago, quoting the NYPD firearms guy then, that the average NY cop would rather have a nice Parker pen than a custom S&W. I can't imagine that things have improved in that regard.

I see it all the time, we have some who even say "I carry it because I have to, not because I want to." Same won't carry off duty, won't train, etc.

It is best to disregard these types and focus on those who care, even remote interest should be fed.