Do you lock your elbows?

[BehindBlueI's]

As many of you probably remember, I had some nerve damage that jacked up my left (support) hand and left it with very little sensation and greatly reduced grip strength. I compensated for this largely by using the "push-pull" tension because my grip was pretty weak otherwise.

So, I'm at roughly 130 pounds of grip strength again per the calibrated doo-dad and have as much sensation as I'm ever going to have (almost full other than pointer finger which is still rather numb). That's back into my normal range, so I'm trying to shoot like I used to, as the push-pull is a bit slower to first shot. Prior to the injury, I was trying to work on keeping my elbows up. Now I'm finding if I do that and keep a slight bend in the elbow, my grip feels really odd with a double stack. It makes the grip feel huge and after 4-5 shots I actually have to readjust my support hand as it's slipped forward on the grip. This causes me to grip too hard with my right and do the low/left dive as the string goes along because I feel like I'm going to lose my grip on the gun.

Locking the elbows and leaning in more aggressively keeps my grip from breaking, but feels like it'll be awkward when I go to move. I've been working this out on an indoor range so no movement yet. With both elbows locked (and I honestly forgot if I was rotating my elbows to point out or left them pointing down, now that I think of it) I can shoot the level 2 of "find your level" pretty consistently at 3y and good failure drills at 15y with a 2.3 second par time from the low ready.

My question is what do you do with your elbows, and why? I'm measurably better with the lock out now, but I also realize sometimes you have to take a step back as you learn a better technique vs doing your bad technique you're really used to.

[Talionis]

As many of you probably remember, I had some nerve damage that jacked up my left (support) hand and left it with very little sensation and greatly reduced grip strength. I compensated for this largely by using the "push-pull" tension because my grip was pretty weak otherwise.

So, I'm at roughly 130 pounds of grip strength again per the calibrated doo-dad and have as much sensation as I'm ever going to have (almost full other than pointer finger which is still rather numb). That's back into my normal range, so I'm trying to shoot like I used to, as the push-pull is a bit slower to first shot. Prior to the injury, I was trying to work on keeping my elbows up. Now I'm finding if I do that and keep a slight bend in the elbow, my grip feels really odd with a double stack. It makes the grip feel huge and after 4-5 shots I actually have to readjust my support hand as it's slipped forward on the grip. This causes me to grip too hard with my right and do the low/left dive as the string goes along because I feel like I'm going to lose my grip on the gun.

Locking the elbows and leaning in more aggressively keeps my grip from breaking, but feels like it'll be awkward when I go to move. I've been working this out on an indoor range so no movement yet. With both elbows locked (and I honestly forgot if I was rotating my elbows to point out or left them pointing down, now that I think of it) I can shoot the level 2 of "find your level" pretty consistently at 3y and good failure drills at 15y with a 2.3 second par time from the low ready.

My question is what do you do with your elbows, and why? I'm measurably better with the lock out now, but I also realize sometimes you have to take a step back as you learn a better technique vs doing your bad technique you're really used to.

I have a somewhat similar experience to you in that I at one point had enough nerve damage that my left hand was completely paralyzed, and the neurologist who examined me told me I would be lucky to regain 75% function in that hand. It took some time, but I now perceive no material negative difference in either dexterity or strength from before that happened.

During recovery, when shooting, I did not adjust my grip back to the more traditional push-pull weaver shooting, I simply dealt with the increased muzzle flip and the need for a more perfect trigger press. I did also experience issues with grip slipping until my grip was over 100lb again.

Generally a slipping offhand grip has nothing to do with elbows locked or not, but a combination of how hard you are gripping the gun and the way you are doing so. When I show people how hard I grip the gun with my left hand, they are invariably surprised. Your off-hand is the vise that holds the gun steady. I have found that shooting with too much tension in the arms is overall detrimental, especially with anything involving shifting point of aim. Locked elbows is a great example of that tension. Try shooting with a very hard grip, locked wrists, and relaxed arms and see how it goes.

[BehindBlueI's]

Generally a slipping offhand grip has nothing to do with elbows locked or not, but a combination of how hard you are gripping the gun and the way you are doing so...Try shooting with a very hard grip, locked wrists, and relaxed arms and see how it goes

Gripping it like I was trying to break it is what I tried first. I was gripping 100% effort with my left hand, and couldn't keep it on the gun. All I did was induce shake and push low/left. It's tough to describe, but the grip feels gigantic. This is a P226, a gun I had zero issue with when at full health. I transitioned to a P220 for awhile because the single stack was much easier for me to manage. I'm debating going back to it.

Maybe it is my wrists, I'll have to hit the range tomorrow and concentrate more on what I'm doing there. It's just irritating, as I've taken a definite step backward.

[Talionis]

Gripping it like I was trying to break it is what I tried first. I was gripping 100% effort with my left hand, and couldn't keep it on the gun. All I did was induce shake and push low/left. It's tough to describe, but the grip feels gigantic. This is a P226, a gun I had zero issue with when at full health. I transitioned to a P220 for awhile because the single stack was much easier for me to manage. I'm debating going back to it.

Maybe it is my wrists, I'll have to hit the range tomorrow and concentrate more on what I'm doing there. It's just irritating, as I've taken a definite step backward.

Understood. There is certainly more to it than gripping full force. I do not grip the gun full force by any means for similar reasons to what you experienced when you tried it. It induces shakes, and can cause a lot of snatching the trigger. One thing to consider, I do not grip equally hard with both hands. For me, the left hand is the vise, the right hand is what makes the gun go bang. I can be pretty relaxed with my right hand and still have a full solid grip on the gun because my left is squeezing the right into the gun. Overgripping with the right is very likely to cause the dreaded shank that you experienced.

I think you are probably on to something with your wrists, the angle you set your wrist at, and consequently the angle you grip the gun, can have a real impact on how the gun behaves in your hands, if it wants to squirm around, or just move up and down. That is something that will vary from person to person too, and requires time and awareness of what is going on with the gun to get right.

[BehindBlueI's]

Understood. There is certainly more to it than gripping full force. I do not grip the gun full force by any means for similar reasons to what you experienced when you tried it.

Right, and I should clarify I wasn't trying this as my actual way to shoot, just as an experiment to see if I had enough grip strength to keep my grip from breaking. I didn't, even if I didn't care where the rounds went. It showed me I physically could not keep my grip from breaking even at full strength, so I needed to do something other than "grip harder".

I'm definitely trying the strong left/looser right. I know that's the way to do it. But when my grip breaks it's tough to leave the right relaxed since it feels like you'll drop it if you don't.

When you jacked up your hand, did the grip feel bigger? I know this sounds odd, but it's definitely my perception. Keep in mind I couldn't feel myself get burned when it was at it's worst, maybe the feedback I'm getting is just weird. I don't know shit about how nerves work and didn't think to ask the doc. It's like someone put a fucking pool noodle over the grip when I wasn't looking, but only to my left hand.

[GJM]

What model pistol and what ammo are you shooting?

Not sure how you meant it, but when I hear "locked elbows" it raises flags related to injury, since long time shooters fall into two categories -- those with elbow pain and those without it at that moment.

[GJM]

duplicate post

[Talionis]

Right, and I should clarify I wasn't trying this as my actual way to shoot, just as an experiment to see if I had enough grip strength to keep my grip from breaking. I didn't, even if I didn't care where the rounds went. It showed me I physically could not keep my grip from breaking even at full strength, so I needed to do something other than "grip harder".

I'm definitely trying the strong left/looser right. I know that's the way to do it. But when my grip breaks it's tough to leave the right relaxed since it feels like you'll drop it if you don't.

When you jacked up your hand, did the grip feel bigger? I know this sounds odd, but it's definitely my perception. Keep in mind I couldn't feel myself get burned when it was at it's worst, maybe the feedback I'm getting is just weird. I don't know shit about how nerves work and didn't think to ask the doc. It's like someone put a fucking pool noodle over the grip when I wasn't looking, but only to my left hand.

Sounds like you're doing a lot of things "right" though they may not be working for the current state of your hands at the moment. Something I would suggest is to experiment not just with grip power, but with how it is applied. An example of what I'm referring to is making sure that most of the pressure you exert with your support hand goes into keeping the heel of your thumb super tight against the gun, and I'm not just referring to the side of the grip. I'm better at showing than telling, so I just snapped a picture of my grip with the firing hand removed. You may be able to see that the heel of the thumb on my support hand is also in contact with the backstrap of the gun to some degree, and exerts pressure there. 17895

Just as an experiment, and I'm not suggesting you adopt this as a shooting technique, next time you are at the range try to grip the gun hard but not control it. Just let it do what it wants to while maintaining a hard grip. The point of that is to discover if the gun breaks your grip because you are trying to muscle it down (which is common) or because you are gripping hard. This comes to mind because people try to force recoil control in different ways, some do so with the turtle; hunched over and elbows locked, and others tend to do so from the wrist forward.

When my hand was bad, I was heavy into 1911's, so my point of reference probably isn't as valuable on that point. I can say I don't remember a feeling of grip width being an issue then. For me, it was more the fact that my wrist didn't want to do what I wanted it to do combined with a weak grip (which at 130lb, yours is definitely not at this point). Nerves do weird things though, so I'm not surprised that we have divergent experiences there. I didn't have much feedback other than feeling like someone had driven a nail through my wrist for a couple years, I just repeated the mantra of "grip like a vise" a lot. I also wasn't nearly as experienced a shooter then as I am now, so I've no doubt my grip broke a fair amount back then.

[BehindBlueI's]

What model pistol and what ammo are you shooting?

Not sure how you meant it, but when I hear "locked elbows" it raises flags related to injury, since long time shooters fall into two categories -- those with elbow pain and those without it at that moment.

P226 .40. I'll likely be changing to 9mm in about 6 weeks as my department switches over.


Just as an experiment, and I'm not suggesting you adopt this as a shooting technique, next time you are at the range try to grip the gun hard but not control it. Just let it do what it wants to while maintaining a hard grip. The point of that is to discover if the gun breaks your grip because you are trying to muscle it down (which is common) or because you are gripping hard.

I'll give it a try tomorrow, but I really don't think that's the issue. Even if I slow fire without adjusting I'll break my grip. It's like the gun is sliding straight back out of my left hand. That's why I went to push/pull. It kept both hands in play without having to stop every 4-5 rounds and readjust my left hand back where it belonged.

I also didn't notice much issue shooting revolvers. The locked thumbs (or thumb print to thumb nail) grip I use wasn't affected. The thumbs forward definitely was, though.

[GJM]

I wondered if it was .40. A switch to 9mm would likely do wonders.

Just today, I was shooting a PPQ 5 inch .40, and it felt more like work than fun. I am at the point, that even if I choose to carry, or was required to carry .40, I would want to do the bulk of my practice with 9.

[BehindBlueI's]

I wondered if it was .40. A switch to 9mm would likely do wonders.

Just today, I was shooting a PPQ 5 inch .40, and it felt more like work than fun. I am at the point, that even if I choose to carry, or was required to carry .40, I would want to do the bulk of my practice with 9.

I shot 175 rounds today and was much less tired than I was doing the same a month ago. I also put 50 rounds of .357 mag down range as I've neglected my revolvers for quite awhile.

I know the 9mm is easier to shoot, but I also know it's a problem with my fundamentals right now. The 9mm will help mask it, but I need to actually figure it out and fix it. I'm laying off the dry fire until I get it figured out, too. No use burning in more bad reps.

[critter]

I had to examine this. Definitely not locking my elbows. Arms are extended at slightly less than the 100% required to lock the elbows. I do rotate my elbows outward/upward which squeezes the weapon side to side by also rotating my hands a bit tighter into the grip. My support hand grip is tightly locked in the cup shape and pulling back but not necessarily 'gripping' with tremendous finger pressure -- just locked down. I'm not really gripping with the fingers in a death grip with either hand but rather push/pull/rotate which squeezes the weapon in all directions. Strong hand is actually relatively relaxed unless I'm shooting SH only.

[LJP]

I don't, and have had more than one Instructor make the point that grip is stronger with the elbows slightly flexed and rotated up and out. Having said that, Paul Howe has his mantra of "lock, lock, press" or something to that effect. If I'm not mistaken, he prefers locking the elbows for consistency. I think his point is that if your heart rate is up and and your shaking from exertion, then locked elbows is going to work better.

I have definitely noticed a decrease in my grip strength and overall upper body strength since hitting 40, and compounded with a previous shoulder injury, I think my shooting is worse. Really have to put a priority on physical fitness and rebuilding my upper body strength.

Good luck with your recovery and figuring out your issue.


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[chances R]

To me grip is elusive and can be victimized by laziness in its execution. My best result is with very firm/tight support hand; fingers on fingers. The side to side pressure I have learned is very important to maximize recoil control. This is very hard to apply with elbows locked at full extension. Simply push your arms out fully with hands pushing together palm to palm. Now flex the elbows about 10 degrees. You will notice more pressure at the palms as your elbows flex. Next tuck your elbows in, ie. going through a narrow doorway. You will feel an increase in palm pressure. This can really be appreciated as you grip the gun. Firm tight support hand, slight elbow flexion, and tuck elbows in. The problem is that one starts to relax with strings of shots and will lazily lose one of these 3 components of grip. After a prolonged session of shooting it is not unusual to be tired and possibly some soreness in the hand, arms and pecs

[Clobbersaurus]

BB, sorry to hear you are having the issues you are describing.

I wonder if your overall grip strength is compromised if you might want to try squeezing your palms together. Use your pecs and forearms and try squeezing/crushing together on the gun. That may be a better way for you to exert force rather than just using your hand strength. I know several shooters on this forum advocate this technique, SLG, being one of them. I've been working more on this but have not quite mastered it yet as an automatic grip technique yet, I think it has real merit though.

[BN]

Take a look at the way Bob Vogel twists his left wrist forward and down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU2BuId3Kho

There must be a million ways to grip a pistol. I started with Weaver, than Chapman and various styles of isosceles. I don't lock my elbows now. I used to lock my right elbow with Chapman.

You will be glad to switch to 9mm. Years ago, I shot .45 because Jeff Cooper said to. :) After I developed tendonitis, I switched to 9mm and got healed.

[Rex G]

.40 Snap & Whip was my nemesis. I might well have retired in October 2015, rather than fire another qual, but my chief OK'ed 9mm as an alternative duty cartridge in September 2015. Actually, the damage was probably largely done by big-bore Magnums in the Eighties.

I moved to lower-bore-axis duty pistols at the same time I switched to 9mm. (Gen4 Glocks.) Either one step would have helped, but I decided to take both steps. (For much personal time carry, I had already reverted to a 1911 .45 ACP, because a 1911, especially with a relieved trigger guard, high-cut front strap, and properly-contoured grip safety, has a quite low bore axis, and .45 ACP does not snap and whip like .40 S&W. Plus, of course, good ol' steel frame.)

[spinmove_]

I personally do not have a tendency to lock my elbows. But I'm with GJM and Talionis, it sounds like a wrist thing.

I suspected I was having an odd Recoil control issue with my G19, but I confirmed it with my P220 this past Wednesday. I'm finding that I can control Recoil best with my left hand/wrist not aggressively angled downward. A strong grip with the left hand, but not to the point of shaking. I do grip, or at least try to, harder with my left than my right. To be honest, I don't really think about my wrists. I just press the gun out and try to keep as stable of a platform behind it as possible.


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[GJM]

It is amazingly how you can take a great gun in 9mm, that is pure joy to shoot, like the Glock 17/19, PPQ, and P226, change just the caliber to .40, and turn your wonderful girl into her sinister sister that will plain wear you out. If I shot .40 as my main practice round, I would need to cut my rounds fired way back, to protect my body and head.

Gabe and I were discussing this earlier today, and he was commenting how he definitely had anticipation issues from the time he shot the Glock 21 as primary. Even when you grip the crap out of the pistol, and shoot the .40 well, there is a cost.

[BehindBlueI's]

BB, sorry to hear you are having the issues you are describing.

I wonder if your overall grip strength is compromised if you might want to try squeezing your palms together. Use your pecs and forearms and try squeezing/crushing together on the gun.

Well, my grip strength is back. Not all my endurance, but strength and range of motion are good again. I've really tried that pec squeeze thing. Either I'm doing it wrong or my pecs are too weak or both. I didn't see any good results.

[Peally]

FWIW I don't do shit with my elbows. I don't "lock" them, torque them, bend them out, twist them, bop them, etc. They just hang out at a normal natural angle and I get my control through a proper grip.

IMO once you fall down the rabbit hole of staring at specific shooters and what their arms look like you're not dredging up much useful information compared to honing your fundamentals, by far.

[spinmove_]

Something that I think is worth mentioning that I've observed personally is that if I change something with my grip, the rest of my platform (wrists, arms, elbows, upper body, hips, legs, and then feet) will change. The change could be slight or it could be drastic depending on what changed. Therefore I find that it all starts with the grip and everything else follows.

Case in point: if I torque my support hand wrist far forward, it causes my left arm to be more extended, which causes me to turn my upper body, which causes my left foot to be further forward. It's awkward to move around in that sort of position and no matter how tight or loose my grip is with my support hand it will come loose in relatively few rounds fired. If I simply have my wrist straight, I can keep that palm of my hand squarely planted on the grip and grip tighter without much additional effort, I can more evenly apply inward torque with my arms and my shoulders are more square to the target, which makes my hips more square, which puts my feet closer to being even with each other, which results in my ability to manage recoil better. Or at least that's how it seems.

Does anyone else experience that?


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[Jared]

BBI,

Don't lock my elbows, I find that it causes elbow pain in long shooting sessions. I don't really do the pec squeeze either, as I never found it helped.

Reading your posts, I'm wondering about a few things. One, you've been shooting a single stack a lot and now going back to a double. That may be causing your brain to notice the extra girth more than normal, making the 226 feel like a big fat pig. Just a thought on that one.

Two, I wonder if your strong hand is letting the gun move around more than it used to and the weak hand just can't compensate well enough to stay on the grip. In other words, the right hand is moving with the gun and the left is staying in the same spot in space more, causing the hands to separate and the left hand gradually winds up in a different spot on the gun.

Three, I wonder what would happen if you let the recoil ride a little more rather than trying to fight it. I know this goes against most modern thinking, and it's not how I shoot, but it may be worth a try.

[Jay Cunningham]

When I teach someone to shoot a pistol, I teach them to not lock their elbows out for several reasons:


Locked elbows will break the top of your hands off the gun. I teach to build the grip high on the gun (for several reasons) and locked elbows runs counter to it.
Locked elbows shift the grip lower, which can introduce or exacerbate "heeling".
Locked elbows allow recoil to go straight through your arms and into your shoulders. This can push you off balance easily.


Of course this is for shooters who have elbows and shoulders that work like their supposed to. If those are messed up, then we have to tack and adjust.

[BehindBlueI's]

It's not the gun. Well, it doesn't help, but I break my grip with a 9mm Glock as well. It just takes longer.

I had one of our SWAT guys watch me. He didn't see any issues. I'm beginning to think it is just grip strength. The test at the PT uses your thumb as well, like using a nutcracker. With the support hand on a pistol, the thumb isn't in play. I'll just try and work on finger strength and see where that gets me.

Results of today using both a P226 .40 and a Glock 17M 9mm:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22729-Back-at-it-or-Learning-to-Shoot-again&p=622595&viewfull=1#post622595

[blues]

I'm glad you're making progress and feel for you as someone who has had a few issues with his hands over the years. I work them several times a week with various tools.

(BTW, I don't lock my elbows. Not currently nor before I made the transition recently to the thumbs forward grip.)

Keep up the good fight and stay safe.

[Leroy]

My thoughts are that despite how hard you grip with the weak hand most control still comes from the strong hand because it is still the hand in the most advantagous position. I still grip the gun pretty hard with strong hand and really hard with the weak hand. Practicing trigger control at speed while gripping the gun hard with both hands in dryfire helps with developing trigger manipulation while maintaining significant tension.

[Rex G]

In my earlier post, I forgot to answer the title's question: No, I do not lock my elbows. I normally shoot with slightly flexed elbows. If I try too hard to totally straighten my elbows, my arms will actually hyper-extend, and trembling starts. When shooting from a rest, I may straighten one arm.

My elbows are able to hyper-extend, to the degree they can actually touch while I have a weapon extended, in a symmetrical Isosceles stance, which caused a comical moment during my academy training. The instructor saw me shooting with slightly flexed elbows, so he stood behind me, and pressed my elbows inward, only to find that my elbows touched, as my arms trembled. He walked away, grumbling about skinny double-jointed cadets. (The curriculum and instruction were quite good, for teaching DA sixgunning to a large number of people.)

[taadski]

The curriculum and instruction were quite good, for teaching DA sixgunning to a large number of people.

Those were the days.

[GuanoLoco]

Hi, my name is Guano and I'll admit it - I was a habitual elbow locker.

It took a long time to admit it, and even longer to fix it because it didn't feel 'right'. Even after I decided elbow locking was a bad thing' I would fall back in to it easily. Yes, I have an extensive history of elbow misuse from grappling arts, and well as tendinitis inside and out on both elbows from overuse (reloading, dry fire, live fire practice, matches, training). Trying to fight my way out of a gazillion arms bars probably didn't help, nor did years of rock climbing, kayaking, fishing (repetitive casting), etc.

I have worked hard to reform myself to a more natural and relaxed level of elbow bend. It is good for managing recoil, reducing bodily abuse and stablizing the gun when aggressively shooting-on-the-move.

Now it feels normal and elbows locked feels like an abomination.

[BehindBlueI's]

I figured it out. I had to look at my hands instead of relying on feel. Turns out as I tightened my hand, I was pulling my palm away from the grip. In short, all I was doing with my left hand was squeezing the fingers of my right hand. Which also probably explains why the grip felt so large. I've mostly got it resolved, but am still watching my hands as I build my grip in dry fire so I know what the "new normal" is supposed to feel like.