Beretta 92D With Updates

[JonInWA]

This earlier Beretta triggerbar thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26086-Beretta-92-Soft-Trigger-Bar&highlight=soft+trigger got me started. I have a 1996-production 92D that I obtained NIB, and have run it for years, both as a defensive carry gun and for IDPA; it's been used in numerous club-level and sanction State championship matches regularly. It's been an excellent gun; the only 2 malfunctions I've ever experienced with it were when the OEM trigger return spring broke (fortunately during a dryfire practice session) and one failure to extract when I was performing a weak-hand only scenario in a match (which was probably due to too insufficient of a grip to support effective slide reciprocation). The broken trigger return spring was replaced with one of Wolff's excellent reduced power TCU, which I've run the gun with for years without any reset incidents.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN1163.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN1163.jpg.html)
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN1164.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN1164.jpg.html)

My primary sponsor is Check-Mate Industries, who have provided me with a complete set of their dry-film magazines; out of the 8 that I have (and all are placed in rotational use, both for carry and IDPA), I've only had one issue; one of the magazines when brand new did not eject cleanly from the gun when empty; Check-Mate ran it through the sizing die a second time, and its performed without any subsequent hesitations. When magazines are utilized for carry, they are kept loaded (14+1) for several months at a time. Spring set or weakened spring tension has never been an issue with any of them. Jackie Santoro , Joe DeBello and Brandon Vitulli at Check-Mate have been stalwart supporters throughout the years.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0016.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0016.jpg.html)

Grips are the ultra-thin nylon/fiberglass ones personally provided to me by the late Jacques Trausch; they are literally transformative in a very positive sense regarding the handling of the 92-the gun feels (and handles) much like a single-stack pistol (and is much thinner than the Beretta 92 Compact L Type M). The grips are such that the primary grip points of contact are the front and backstraps of the gun, as opposed to the grip plates per se. http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN2110.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN2110.jpg.html)
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN1112.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN1112.jpg.html)
The Wilson/VZ ultra-thin grips have acquired a good reputation since their release, and with the Trausch's unavailability since Jacques Trausch's unfortuante and unexpected passing several years ago, they'd be the ones I'd likely recommend. Ergo/Falcon Grips has also made excellent hard rubber Beretta grips, but they're not showing as being currently available on their website. I have one of their sets, and they're quit good-good grippability and durability, but they are a bit thicker than the Trausch's or the Wilson/VZ Ultre-Thins. I suspect that they're still somewhat available, however, and are relatively inexpensive.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0845.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0845.jpg.html)


Steve Trottier, President of Tool Tech (and member Tooltech here on the forum) was kind enough to facilitate the re-lamping of my OEM Trijicon tritium capsules last year; we went with a green tritium frontsight with an orange-painted surround, and yellow tritium rears sight capsules, with blacked sight surrounds-they have proven to be an excellent day- and night-sight combination. I've always liked Trijicons, both for the inherent quality of their sights and the lightbar proportions provided with front/rear sight alignment.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0004.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0004.jpg.html)
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0005.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0005.jpg.html)

Out of the box, the 92D has always possessed an excellent triggerpulls and very smooth slide reciprocation. I never measured the OEM setup with a triggerpull gauge, but to me it felt to be around 8-9 lbs; switching out the OEM trigger return spring when it broke with the Wolff TCU did not provide any increase in pull weight or induce any negative pull characteristics.

The 92D is definitely a full-sized pistol, and the combination of the slide length and relatively long DAO triggerpull (with a correspondingly long reset) makes for a bit of a challenge regarding strong-handed and weak-handed shooting. Not helping was a slight, but pronounced "hitch" towards the end of the triggerpull. The recent thread, and one of the accompanying images of the OEM triggerbar makes it clear that accumulated dry- and live-fire gradually wears a groove in the rear pad portion of the triggerbar, which provides the "hitch." While the attached images aren't great, you can see the silver groove worn into the triggerbar's rear pad on the OEM triggerbar.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0001.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0001.jpg.html)
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0002%20-%20Copy.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0002%20-%20Copy.jpg.html)
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0002.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0002.jpg.html)
It's visible as a bright silver wear line on the triggerbar's end pad.

The suggestion to this issue (and the OEM triggerbar operationally remains functional-the triggerpull is just degraded over time at the trigger release point during triggerpull) is to replace the OEM triggerbar with one of the new ones from Wilson Combat, designed by Ernest Langdon and Bill Wilson. It provides a through-hardened bar, with revised overtravel and pad geometry at the release point. Needless to say, I was intrigued, particularly as the discussion was fleshed out during the thread, with Ernest Langdon providing some key contributions. Discussions followed with our GJM graciously facilitating between Bill Wilson and Anthony at Wilson Combat and myself. The upshot was that Wilson Combat graciously offered me my choice of any of their Beretta 92 components; I chose to go with their Ultimate Action Tune Kit (which provides the Wilson triggerbar, their chrome silicon lever-type {same as OEM configuration} trigger return spring, and a 12, 13 and 14 lb set of replacement mainsprings, also in chrome silicon. Additionally I selected both the normal and increased strength extractor springs, a chrome silicon firing pin spring, and a chrome silicon +P recoil spring (as my carry load for the 92D is normally either Speer's 124 gr +P Gold Dots or Hornady's 135gr Ultimate Duty rounds, both recommended for duty by DocGKR.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0010.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0010.jpg.html)
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0009.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0009.jpg.html)
Additionally, I requested one of Wilson's Extended/Checkered magazine release buttons to replace the OEM one (which required me to twist my hand to activate).

Concurrently, I replaced the triggerbar spring and slide stop/release spring with Wolff replacement springs, which is part of my annual maintenance protocol. The slide stop spring has a longer leg, making it easier to install than the OEM one.

The first thing I did was to attempt to install the extended magazine release...the operative word being "attempt." (And I will say that after going through both J.B. Wood's Beretta 92 disassembly/assembly book and numerous YouTube sequences, there are 2 YouTube providers that clearly are head-and-shoulders above: Childofjuly and MoisonVirus. Childofjuly utilizes an Inox 92, which makes things MUCH easier to see, and Moisinvirus conceptually and operationally beautifully describes and takes you through the concept and modifications necessary regarding the Wilson components, particularly comprehensively describing the triggerbar concept and mods necessary for successful installation. While I was easily able to transfer spring and its associated components from the OEM to the Wilson release, I simply could not install the assembly into the receiver. Two clues: On Wilson's site regarding the component reviews, virtually all the reviewers had issues with the component's installation, requiring the component to be filed/fitted; the second clue was my gunsmith's wincing when I came in with the component; he's also found Beretta magazine releases a bit of a pain to install. However, in relatively short order, he (Fred Hastings of C.a.R Firearms in Kent, WA) squeezed the installation in for me between orders. Once installed, it was well worth the trouble-magazine releases are much easier, with no hand-twisting necessary, and the checkering is very well done. One warning caveat for those concerned: Using this component will force you to be in IDPA's Enhanced Service Pistol division; if you want an extended magazine release and to be within the requirements of IDPA's Stock Service Pistol, you'll need to use Beretta's extended magazine release, the one they used in their 92 Elite (which is the component Wilson Combat themselves use in their Wilson/Beretta 92G to remain SSP compliant); it's not checkered, but probably virtually just as good operationally). By my caliper measurements, the Wilson Extended just makes the allowable .20 extension limit applicable to all IDPA divisions.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0003.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0003.jpg.html)

I'm lucky-regarding the triggerbar itself, for my 92D, it was a simple drop-in installation; since it's DAO, I didn't need to file the overtravel pad for single-action use, and the rear pad was just fine as it came. I believe that Wilson has slightly modified the part since its initial release to make installation more likely to be a straight drop-in installation; YMMV. Essentially, one of the key things the new triggerbar does is to allow the hammer to go further back in DAO prior to release, imparting more force to the firing pin. The derivative benefit is that you can now use a much lighter mainspring; my understanding is that the OEM mainspring is 20 lbs; the OEM (or aftermarket, as available from Beretta) "D" mainspring is 16 lbs. While others have had good seemingly across the board results with the Wilson 13 lb spring, I opted to go conservatively with the 14 lb spring (the 12 lb spring reputedly is reliable predominantly with lighter-primered cartridges, such as Federal), since mine is used for both carry and competition. When re-installing the mainspring, ensure that it surrounds the hammer strut, and a drift or punch is very helpful in keeping the mainspring cap/lanyard loop aligned with the receiver while replacing the dogbone retention pin; things are under pretty strong tension; beware of inadvertently power-launching the components during installation (and subsequently chasing down the escaped parts...how do I know this...?) Safety glasses are an excellent idea here...

I also went conservatively with the Wilson standard strength extractor spring; if necessary down the line I may opt to go with the enhanced tension spring. Removing the extractor is part of my annual Beretta maintenance protocol, to clean out the accumulated GSR and grunge from the extractor, extractor recess and firing pin chamber. When the extractor retaining pin is reinstalled, remember to lightly restake it at the top of the slide to preclude it from potentially wriggling out under use. I chickened out when it came to removing the firing pin and firing pin spring....mine is currently working fine, and GSR was removed by blowing the chamber out with compressed air with the access provided when the extractor is removed.

On reassembly, I noticed that that slight triggerbar rub on the cut-out on the right grip panel made the trigger return slightly problematical-there was some hesitation. Accordingly, I decided (reluctantly) to replace the Wolff reduced power TCU with the stronger Wilson lever-type chrome silicon trigger return spring. Another Wilson part to run through its paces, and the spring is designed to be a lifetime component, much stronger than the OEM one. It requires a bit deeper disassembly to install than the TCU, but it's easily done-using a dental pick is VERY useful in hooking one end of the spring to the triggerbar as is necessary. The additional "oomph" of the Wilson return spring is sufficient to smoothly activate the trigger return-especially critical for me with a 92D, where every trigger return is perforce involving a long trigger reset distance, since the action is DAO.
Additionally, I used some of Challis' thin rubber washers to serve as screw retention washers, as well as precluding the grip springs from rubbing against the magazines durng magazine insertion/ejection-with some of the Trausch grips, some stand-off distancing is required, and the Challis O-rings provide it nicely; I needed to stack 2 of them on each spring, but it's still more effective than using a #60 rubber washer, and more tailorable to the individual screws as needed.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0011.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0011.jpg.html)

For holstering, I prefer Olen Holsters kydex; Bruce and Laura Clemans last year sponsored me with their OWB holster amd dual magazine pouch; this year they provided me with their IWB holster. They make 2 IWB set-ups, one, a "taco style" with a single FOMI retention clip, and another, a two-piece pancake style with dual retention clips; with a heavier gun like the Beretta 92, I've found that the weight is slightly better supported with the dual clip model, which is what they provided.
Bruce and Laura provided these to me in a two-tone kydex-the exterior in "Beretta Blue" and the inner piece in Olive Drab (to commemorate my Army service); they are very amenable to similar color, equipment and retention-effort tension tailoring, and there work is excellent with very fast turn-around times.
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0007.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0007.jpg.html)
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0008.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0008.jpg.html)

So-How does it all work? With much dryfiring, and one live-firing session, superbly. The Wilson Combat triggerbar and mainspring provide an exceptionally nice triggerpull, with no perceptible hitch at the release point, and hopefully the chrome silicon trigger return spring is indeed a long-lived component; if not, I'll likely go to back to a Wolff TCU, but the standard or increased strength component. The thorough-hardening of the Wilson triggerbar should provide for a very long life, and preclude the rear pad wear grooving and triggerpull "hitch" from occurring. While I was pleased with the OEM 16 lb"D" mainspring, the Wilson 14 lb one definitely provides for a beneficially lighter pull, facilitated by being used in conjunction with the Wilson triggerbar. The gun will be run through its paces at this month's club IDPA match, and in August's sanction Washington State IDPA Championship match.

Again, many thanks to GJM for setting things in motion with Wilson Combat, and to Bill Wilson and Anthony for their interest and facilitation. I'll keep the forum posted as to how things perform under successive use. Right now, it's my dedicated carry, practice and match choice, at least through the summer.

Best, Jon

[Mike C]

Damn Jon I'm still jealous over those grips. They are awesome.

[Doc_Glock]

Great gun review/update.

[JonInWA]

A couple of follow-on thoughts: Every time I get inside the Beretta, I'm impressed with just how well designed these guns are. They're complex-my 92D has some 69 separate components, and the other 92 models have even more (the 92D has fewer due to the deletion of the sear and sear spring, safety levers et al). The machining on them is similarly complex-even the springs have some eccentric design-architecture induced unique shapes (such as the slide release and triggerbar springs). In a world replete with design- and manufacture-simplified polymer-framed pistols, one wouldn't expect the Beretta 92 series to have garnered the reputation it has for reliability; but it does, thanks to the design team of Carlo Beretta, Giuseppe Mazzetti and Vittorio Vale, and the centuries-refined manufacturing capabilities of Beretta. And the aesthetics are nicely executed as well; I personally find the 92 to be a very handsome gun, although that has absolutely zero operational bearing on its use.

I am not one who bemoans the commencement of the end of the universe induced by modern polymer-framed injected molded pistols. But I do admire the fit, form and function (and aesthetics) of a well-conceived and executed firearm like the Beretta 92. While the ingenious design simplification and manufacture of Glocks, the brute strength, design, and functionality of Rugers, and the brilliant conceptualization, material and manufacturing quality inherent to HKs and the period-specific design, manufacturing and functional efficiency of Colt 1911s will always impress me and provide enjoyment of use, the Beretta 92 to me is one of the foundation designs of 20th century pistols, and remains very viable today.

Despite its proliferation of components and relative design complexity, their design is such that everything inherently reinforces, and provides excellent reliability and durability. Subsequent massaging by Wilson Combat and others continues to improve on an already very, very good gun-positioning it nicely in the 21st century. Its original weak points (particularly the short-lived OEM trigger return spring and locking block) have been successfully re-designed/re-materialed by Beretta themselves and others, with superlative results. While my "end of the world as we know it" will probably remain a Glock, due to their uniquely combined qualities of durability, reliability, ease of maintenance and ease of detailed disassembly/assembly and component interchangability without necessary fitting/gunsmithing and overall environmental imperviousness, and while my HK P30L with its V1 light LEM is probably a better threat-management and slightly superior in terms of outright shootability tool, the Beretta 92 (in my case, a 92D) holds a special place in my personal pantheon of firearms-and will continue to be used for carry, home defense and competition for the foreseeable future-and with singular pleasure and appreciation.

Best, Jon

[Greg Bell]

This is the most interesting thing I've read on the gun Internet in forever.

[JonInWA]

Thanks, Greg-much appreciated. Only on Pistol-Forum!

And some additional comments: The Wilson Combat Extended Checkered Magazine Release's design is such that that when the gun is placed on its left side down and pushed, the magazine release does not protrude to the point that the magazine is inadvertently released-a great design feature.

Lubrication continues to be with Weapon Shield for general lubrication/anti-corrosive protection, Lucas Red "N" Tacky grease (thanks again, Clobbersaurus) for metal-on-metal bearing/reciprocation areas (such as slide/receiver rails, locking block wings and slide slots, and Dri-Slide for difficult-to-reach lubrication areas, and areas where a non-grunge attractant lubricant is advisable (internal action components, inner magazine tubes and magazine springs).

Best, Jon

[Doc_Glock]

Keep it coming Jon. I just purchased my first ever 92 and am pretty impressed with it.

[JonInWA]

I forgot to add one maintenance protocol: Per ToddG's Beretta-L Discussion, the only components on my generation of 92 that are blued, and neither Bruniton-treated or anodized aluminum are the barrel and grip screws, so to provide some additional rust-proofing, I periodically wipe these components down with Sentry Solutions' Tuf-Cloth, a chemically-impregnated cloth.

Also, a great source for technical questions and concerns that I've had over the years is BUSA's Randall Laporte in their Customer Support/Tech Support department; he's been unfailing polite and providing of succinct, but detailed responses to my periodic queries.

Ergo Grips has just confirmed to me that their Beretta 92 hard rubber grips are in fact available, but they are not depicted on their current website. I believe their current pricing is around $27, so they're a great value alternative if the thickness of the OEM Beretta grips is ok with you. They are available in both black and dark earth (my example image in the main discussion is obviously dark earth). If interested, I'd inquire at info@ergogrips.net

http://ergogrips.net/shop/ergo-beretta-model-92m-9-grip/

Best, Jon

[357carbine]

When it comes to aesthetics, the D's are top of the heap.
JonInWA, would you mind telling us about running the DAO trigger. Any tips or techniques you could share.

[JonInWA]

When it comes to aesthetics, the D's are top of the heap.
JonInWA, would you mind telling us about running the DAO trigger. Any tips or techniques you could share.

I've found that it's very similar to running a double-action revolver-the trigger needs to be allowed to return fully forward to achieve reset. You quickly adjust to it, and repeat shots can be accomplished very quickly (albeit not as quickly as those on a 1911, Glock, or HK when utilizing their respective short reset points).

The trigger can be staged with judicious practice as you draw, initiating the rolling pull as the gun clears holster and essential body parts. I index and acquire the sights very quickly (well, by my standards) and naturally with my 92D; it's a huge plus for the platform for me. And the Tool Tech modded sights with their orange surround are a big help into immediately sucking my vision towards the front sight. If you have dot sights, you might want to experiment with neon or fluorescent paint. I've had good results with an orange (or red) front dot, and green or yellow rear dots, or just blacking out the rear dots.

In feel and action, it's very similar to using a tuned classic Smith & Wesson revolver-and that's on an out-of-the-box 92D, before any of the upgrades. Accordingly, the 92D model Berettas are slowly developing a near cult status ( happily and unashamedly facilitated by me).

As I mentioned, strong- and weak-handed firing a 92 in DA or DAO mode is a bit of an acquired taste, requiring practice to master, given the combination of the long slide's weight/balance and the long triggerpull and reset distance.

A question I'll have to ask Wilson and/or Ernest Langdon is if the reset distance on a 92D is/can be modified/shortened with the new Wilson Combat triggerbar; if they're reading this thread discussion, hopefully they'll appropriately chime in with further insights, as I'm frankly not sure (and am disinclined to screw around on mine without adult guidance-I'm very pleased with it as it is, but then again, I'm acclimated to it after years of operation and accumulated muscle memory).

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

An off-the-shelf parts substitution regarding the 92D reset might be with experimenting with the standard or extra-strength Wolff TCU, the Wilson Combat triggerbar, and the lighter Wilson chrome silicon mainsprings (perhaps the 13# or 14# ones-I'm a bit hesitant to recommend the 12# one for general carry, given that reliability seems to be a bit limited with it to softer-primered cartridges. That might provide a balanced, not excessively heavy triggerpull with a crisp (but not shorter per se, unless the triggerbar is appropriately modded {if that's indeed possible for this purpose}) reset.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

First of all, I'm sorry that Photobucket's recent draconian decision about holding their third-party postings up for user ransom has resulted in my earlier images being blanked out; I abhor their policy, and will be neither patronizing or recommending them in the future. Hopefully, most of you involved in this thread had an opportunity to see them before they were yanked.

UPDATE: Yesterday I shot the 92D in an IDPA match, my first dynamic shooting activity that I've been able to do with the gun, and the first dynamic shooting period since an injury somewhat sidelined me in May. Short version: The 92D with its mods performed superbly, the shooter, not so much. My rustiness aside, here are some of the highlights I observed throughout the day:

1. The pistol indexes superbly; I realized that in my dryfiring, and need to instinctively trust that and capitalize on it more in actual live firing; I'm wasting an inordinate amount of time on verifying sight/target acquisition.

2. All of the Wilson Combat components worked exactly as billed, and integrated into the gun. The triggerbar provided for reliable cartridge ignition with the lighter 14# mainspring; in the future, I may experiment with the 13#, but from now at least until my State sanctioned IDPA match in August, I'm going to leave well enough alone. The extended magazine release was beneficial to effortless magazine ejections, and the chrome sliicone extractor spring performed with no drama. Since I was shooting lighter standard pressure Federal Champion Aluminum-cased cartridges, I went with the OEM Beretta 13# recoil spring; for carry, where I'm using both Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dots and Hornaday 135 gr +P Critical Duty cartridges, I'm using the Wilson Combat 14# chrome silicone recoil spring. Both springs have worked well with all loadings, but it's a near effortless thing to somewhat key the spring selection to the appropriate loadings.

3. The Olen IWB dual-clip pancake-style IWB worked quite well, and was both effective and comfortable-for both carry and draw/re-holstering, as was the dual magazine pouch. The combination works well for both daily carry and IDPA match use. The Olen kydex provides a much faster draw than my Kramer horsehide IWB, but I don't plan to divest myself of the Kramer, as it's a very good and comfortable holster in its own right.

4. The Tool Tech re-lamped OEM Trijicon sights work quite well; there are adequate light bars and the orange front sight lamp end surround worked very well. I've always considered that the Trijicon sights provide a very good day- and night-sight picture, and their use on this particular 92D just continues to verify my good feelings about them.


5. Even with the beneficial mods, the 92D is still a bit of a challenge to shoot single-handedly; on one stage I thought it would be advantageous, but let's just say that my tactical perceptions were clouded by my constrained skill-set. The combination of a long DAO triggerpull and the overall balance of the 92 make single-handed firing of a 92 a bit of an acquired skill-clearly, I need more practice.

6. No issues using Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2 as a grease/lube, primarily on the slide/receiver rails and locking block. Concurrently, no issues with the Wilson Combat chrome silicone lever-type trigger return spring; it provided more than adequate trigger return power, and both trigger pull and return were crisp and smooth.

7. As they have for years, I had no issues whatsoever with my Check-Mate dry-film finish magazines; which included me consistently dropping them into dry, powdery dirt/dust throughout the match. There were no issues in chambering, cartridge travel, or failures to lock the slide back after the last round being fired. The followers were sufficiently tight when reaching the magazine top to effectively seal the magazine tube from dirt and dust after empty magazines being ejected onto the ground.

Due to some quasi-friendly "iron-sharpening-iron" skill challenges above and beyond the basic stage descriptions by ostensible "friends," I found that I was able to make head shots and failure drills (2 shots to the body, one to the head) with relative ease and accuracy with the gun. To me, that was one of the highlights of the day-friends challenging each other nicely stimulated the juices (and our individual and collective skill-sets).

The Upshot: Gun is great as set up, shooter be rusty. I've got a prescribed regimen of dryfire practice, as well as some more static (unfortunately) live-fire ahead of me prior to next month's sanctioned match, but I'm very pleased with and confident in the gun and equipment.

Best, Jon

[JPedersen]

I wanted to ask, in your opinion, what is the currently available closest equivalent to the Trausch grips you are running? Do you happen to know what the width of the pistol grip is with them installed ? I know it is thickest at the screws... but at it thinnest point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JonInWA]

I'll be happy to measure it when I have a chance. The two grips that I recommend today are: 1). VZ's Ultra Thins, which is made by VZ under their label, and also for Wilson Combat (with a Wilson Combat medallion incorporated into it), and for Ernest Langdon's Langdon Tactical http://www.langdontac.com/Products.html; the Langdon Tactical variant is the one that I'd personally get, as it appears to have the best checkering design and coverage for grippability;

2). Ergo's Beretta 92 pebble-textured hard rubber/polymer grip http://ergogrips.net/shop/ergo-beretta-model-92m-9-grip/. While thicker than the VZ ultra-thins (and actually pretty close to the dimensions of the OEM Beretta grips themselves), the Ergo grips provide excellent grippability; I ran a set for several years before switching to the Trausch grips, and still have that set for back-up. Cost-wise, they're also only about a third of the price of the VZs, if that's a consideration.

Basically, if you have medium-to-small hands, I'd probably default to the VZs, and probably the Langdon variant. If you have medium-to-large hands, I'd probably go with the Ergos (but the VZs are also available in a slightly larger sizing, too).

Other potential contenders would be one of Hogue's, which are available in a variety of materials and tend to be very well crafted (also take a hard look at their Factory Seconds selections-in my personal experience they tend to be surplus or obsolete colors/patterns, as opposed to being cosmetically flawed).
https://www.hogueinc.com/grips/beretta
https://www.hogueinc.com/limited/seconds/beretta

VCD Grips can also provide their extremely effective stippling pattern to Beretta grips as a custom effort, contact them-my assumption is that you'd need to provide the basic grip to be worked on, but I'm guessing on that. I'm running their grips on 2 of my 1911s, and Todd Green and others on the p-f have been very impressed with them http://www.vcdgrips.com/products/custom.shtml

I'm sure that there are others, but those are the ones that I'm currently most familiar with. I'd certainty be interested in hearing what others are using and recommending. And, if you're using or restricted to using the OEM plastic Beretta grips, they really aren't bad at all, but I think the other selections do offer some quantifiable improvements over them.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

UPDATE: Last weekend, I used the 92D in the Washington State IDPA Championship, a Tier 3 sanctioned IDPA match, consisting of 13 stages, with a minimum round count of 198 rounds (I actually shot some 250 rounds). Quite bluntly, I didn't do all that well in the overall scoring ladder, but it had mostly to do with my penchant for moving slowly and deliberately as opposed to racing through the stages (Hey, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...). My accuracy was pretty decent, and I'me extremely satisfied with the gun and my equipment.

The biggest take-outs for me is that the Wilson Combat upgrades really are hugely beneficial upgrades-the triggerbar provided a more even triggerpull, and allowed for a lighter (14#) hammer spring, and the extended/checkered magazine release significantly aided in magazine changes (and also de facto booting me from SSP to ESP, but I have zero qualms about that-it is, after all, an equipment enhancement...so Enhanced Service Pistol makes total sense...).

A second huge take-out is that tritum sights are hugely beneficial in a low-light situation. Probably 1/3 of my pistols have them, but previously my real use for them has been to ease my ability to find the gun in a dark room from the nightstand. Actually USING them in a low-light scenario made a very quantifiable impression, and emabled me to perform head shots on 6 darkened targets intermixed with 3 non-threat targets, and then a swinging target. Ironically, my only point down was 1 point down on the one target in bright sunlight-the first target to be engaged prior to entering the darkened environment... A year ago p-f member Steve Trottier of Tool Tech relamped my 92D with a green tritium front, with an orange surround, and yellow tritium rears, with blacked-out surrounds. That combination excelled in both low light and full-light situations. I'm now a full believer in the benefits of tritium sighting.

Holster and dual magazine pouch were both by Olen Holsters, and this year I ran a dual loop IWB rig mad specifically for me, with a similar, but high-walled dual loop magazine pouch (precluding scratching fromm the sharp corners of my Check-Mate hardened-steel magazine baseplates. Both performed superbly, and comfortably throughout the day.

For the first time in a match, I utilized the CCW Comfort Sling, enabling my shoulder to bear and spread the weight of the pistol. As I've noticed in regular carry, it works as advertised, adding to my overall comfort, reducing both fatigue and need to constantly tug/re-adjust the pistol, holster and belt.

Ammunition: I used Federal Champion brass-cased 115 gr ball; I've found it, and its aluminum-case brethren to be decently accurate and quite inexpensive. While I usually shoot the aluminum-cased, I was under the impression that the brass-cased had a little more "oomph" to it, and wanted to not run the risk of failing due to chrono, I chose it. I chronoed at a 126 power factor, which is a bit too close for comfort (the minimum floor was 125...)-particularly out of a 4.9" barrel. I have a call in to Federal to discuss this further in depth. Previously I've had the aluminum-cased stuff chrono at 127 and 130 or 131 power factor, so I may switch back to that for match use; we'll see what Federal has to say.

Additionally, I encountered 1 failure for the slide to lock back on an empty magazine during the match; there could have been several causal factors; 1) Weak ammunition, 2) an accumulation of dirt and grunge on the magazine follower (may magazines were rotated, but all were ejected into fine, talc-like dirt/dust throughout the match-while I assiduously toothbrushed 'em clean prior to reloading them, conceivably I could have missed a critical spot; 3) aging magazine springs/worn follower notch. All 5 of the Check-Mate magazines used are at least 7 years old, ranging from 7 to 11 years of age, and all have their OEM springs and followers. While any of the above could have been the causal factor, Check-Mate is shipping me a new set of springs and followers for all of my magazines; given their age, in spite of there being only one issue, I think that replacing springs and followers is the prudent thing to do.

Another take-out was that the combination of the gun, the Trausch grip's handling ergonomics, and the Wilson Combat upgrades and the Trijicon sights made it eminently feasible for me to shoot strong-hand only shots while on the move, accurately (albeit slowly-but that's on moi). That was done while traversing a narrow plank with repetitive targets on either side as I progressed down the plank.

I came out of the match extremely confident with the 92D as I've chose to equip it, and with my support gear. I did not feel handicapped in the least with it's inherently long triggerpull and long reset-the triggerpull is delightfully smooth, rolling and predictable, and the Wilson triggerbar provides for triggerpull consistency and a lighter hammer spring with no operational downside.

In our recent thread discussions, I've mentioned that for a duty/threat-management pistol, that I perceive that there's much to be said for a DAO or LEM action (and others hre, notably Dagga Boy say it with much more eloquence and experience than I). My 92D clearly fits into that ideal paradigm, and will continue to be utilized for duty, carry, home defense and IDPA.

It was a great match, and I had the pleasure of being in a very supportive squad; most of us have shot together in multiple matches over the years, including multiple sanctioned matches.

The match provided me great, reinforcing experience-and shows me where I clearly need to make improvements, as well as celebrating the good.

Best, Jon

[john c]

Jon;

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your knowledge and insights on the Beretta and Ruger P-series platforms. I always enjoy reading your posts.

I remember back in the '90s when the Beretta and S&W DAOs came out. I thought it was a communist plot to neuter service pistols. I thought the DA/SA B92 was the ****; I mean, how could Martin Riggs be wrong about anything tactical? :D

Now, with a few years under my belt, I understand the benefits. I wish I could find a DAO model 92 for a reasonable price. How are the Beretta 8000 D Cougars (DAO)? Are they a reasonable substitute for a 92D? How about the PX4 type C or D?

[JHC]

Jon;

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your knowledge and insights on the Beretta and Ruger P-series platforms. I always enjoy reading your posts.

I remember back in the '90s when the Beretta and S&W DAOs came out. I thought it was a communist plot to neuter service pistols. I thought the DA/SA B92 was the ****; I mean, how could Martin Riggs be wrong about anything tactical? :D

Now, with a few years under my belt, I understand the benefits. I wish I could find a DAO model 92 for a reasonable price. How are the Beretta 8000 D Cougars (DAO)? Are they a reasonable substitute for a 92D? How about the PX4 type C or D?

I thought it was a great period in service pistol options for all the DA reasons. I recall always being struck by what a great pull the S&W DAO's had. I'm sorry I cannot even recall trying a 92 DAO. It's a longer pull I imagine. Now I have had one occasion to actually shoot a DAO compact Smith, the single stack. I didn't dig the overall handling but it was just a mag or two.

[CraigS]

Jon, thanks for this thread. I have shot just one IDPA and one Steel Challenge w/ my 92G and am now switching to my EliteII to be able to use a fiber optic front sight. Re; mag releases. The Wilson oversized
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Oversize-Checkered-Steel-Magazine-Release-Beretta-92_96/productinfo/678/
would be illegal as I understand, and you mention, in SSP. However Beretta USA has one similar
http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta-92-96-oversize-steel-magazine-release-button/c86992/
which, while not stated in this listing, looks identical to the one in my M9A3. So this would also be legal I think.
JohnC-if you find any standard 92fs and remove the sear and sear spring you have a 92D. It would still have the safeties on the slide but who will know that you never use them.

[JonInWA]

Jon, thanks for this thread. I have shot just one IDPA and one Steel Challenge w/ my 92G and am now switching to my EliteII to be able to use a fiber optic front sight. Re; mag releases. The Wilson oversized
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Oversize-Checkered-Steel-Magazine-Release-Beretta-92_96/productinfo/678/
would be illegal as I understand, and you mention, in SSP. However Beretta USA has one similar
http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta-92-96-oversize-steel-magazine-release-button/c86992/
which, while not stated in this listing, looks identical to the one in my M9A3. So this would also be legal I think.
JohnC-if you find any standard 92fs and remove the sear and sear spring you have a 92D. It would still have the safeties on the slide but who will know that you never use them.

Craig, you're absolutely correct about the magazine releases; of note is that Wilson/Beretta in their Brigadier collaboration used the Beretta extended release (which had been used on the Elite and others as OEM) as opposed to the Wilson precisely to keep the gun within SSP parameters.

The Wilson extended/checkered release that I chose IS IDPA legal-but in ESP, not SSP. It measures out EXACTLY .20 protrusion from the frame measuring point, making it acceptable within IDPA's overarching equipment rules. Frankly, for me it really doesn't matter whether I'm competing in SSP or ESP-the gun is kitted out the way I like and seems to work swimmingly for me; it's IDPA legal, so the specific division I'm in is determined by the equipment/enhancements-but the main person I'm competing against is myself (But I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that after each and every match I compare my performance to others).

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Jon;

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your knowledge and insights on the Beretta and Ruger P-series platforms. I always enjoy reading your posts.

I remember back in the '90s when the Beretta and S&W DAOs came out. I thought it was a communist plot to neuter service pistols. I thought the DA/SA B92 was the ****; I mean, how could Martin Riggs be wrong about anything tactical? :D

Now, with a few years under my belt, I understand the benefits. I wish I could find a DAO model 92 for a reasonable price. How are the Beretta 8000 D Cougars (DAO)? Are they a reasonable substitute for a 92D? How about the PX4 type C or D?

John, thanks for the comments. I would absolutely stay away from any Cougar in .40 or .357 SIG; there are noted issues with Cougars in those chamberings. I'd be warily open-minded towards a 9mm Cougar, but I think you'd be both better served and have more peace of mind with either a 92D (they are out there, and still very reasonably priced from what I've seen on the auction sites), or a PX4. The PX4 Compact Carry modded by Earnst Langdon, and offered by BUSA as a regular order-able gun http://www.beretta.com/en-us/px4-storm-compact-carry/ or the full-size PX4 would be my recommendations. I'm under the impression that it's somewhat difficult to find a PX4 in C or D actions, but I might well be wrong-it's worth a shot if that's what you're gravitating towards; your gunshop can certainly find out from their distributors, or BUSA themselves regarding availability/orderability/wait times.

Best, Jon

[timotab]

Great information. Thanks for sharing.

Since you have a lot of experience with the P89 and the 92D how does the P89 DA pull compare to the Beretta? I've got 4 Beretta's, 92g, 92FS, 92FS Centurion and PX4. All of those have smooth DA pulls, especially if the sear has been removed. If the Ruger is close to that I'd be tempted to give one a go.

[JonInWA]

Great information. Thanks for sharing.

Since you have a lot of experience with the P89 and the 92D how does the P89 DA pull compare to the Beretta? I've got 4 Beretta's, 92g, 92FS, 92FS Centurion and PX4. All of those have smooth DA pulls, especially if the sear has been removed. If the Ruger is close to that I'd be tempted to give one a go.

That's a fair question. The Beretta 92D has a very (actually, exceptionally) smooth, rolling triggerpull-but it's somewhat long (very double-action revolver-like), and, as a DAO, repeat triggerpulls will be the same-with a fairly long reset-letting the trigger go all the way forward (again, like a revolver).

The Ruger P89's DA pull (at least on mine) is also very long, and remarkably smooth-but probably not quite as smooth as that on a 92D (but other than on a classic, and probably tuned Smith & Wesson revolver, not that much is going to be as smooth as the pull on a 92/96D-and how great they are out of the box).

The Ruger's follow-up SA shots benefit from a relatively short triggerpull distance, and the SA triggerpull itself is reasonably crisp, quite predictable, and with a pretty short reset distance. Frankly, the P89 is actually one of the easiest pistols in my inventory to index with and fire very accurately with. Other than lubrication, the only mods peerformed on my P89 is to have replaced the OEM Xenoy grips with a set of Hogue rubber fingergroove grips, and to have filled in the white sight dots with a fluorescent yellow front and fluorescent orange/red rear dots; for some reason, on that gun, that color combination seems to work a bit better for me than my normal fluorescent green front and orange rear dots; YMMV.

While I like the Ruger P89, and have no hesitation in recommending one (particularly a later-production example accurized by Ruger re-aligning the barrel's positioning in the slide, easily identifiable by the rear of the breach rising above the slide plane when in battery), given your Beretta-centric orientation, I'd probably recommend that you acquire a 92D/92D Centurion to maintain muscle-memory and holster/magazine pouch commonality.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I wanted to ask, in your opinion, what is the currently available closest equivalent to the Trausch grips you are running? Do you happen to know what the width of the pistol grip is with them installed ? I know it is thickest at the screws... but at it thinnest point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Measurements with Trausch grips:

At top screws: 1 7/8"

At thumbrest (on left grip): 1 5/16"

At narrowest portion (at midpoint of grips, between the top and bottom screws): 1 5/32"

At bottom screws: 1 11/16"

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I spoke with one of Federal's ammunition techs about the Champion Brass and Aluminum-cased 9mm cartridges; my assumption that the brass-cased were a little warmer was incorrect-they're both loaded out the same. When I mentioned the relatively low chrono results with their 115 gr Brass-cased, he suggested that I'd probably have better results with their American Eagle selections, particularly for matches. While the Aluminum-cased certainly works acceptably, his feeling was that the Brass-cased better forms to the chamber on firing and is probably a slightly better all-around choice.

I had planned on replacing all of my springs and followers in my Check-Mate dry-film magazines after the State match, as a preventive measure after experiencing the one failure of the slide to lock back on an empty magazine. However, Check-Mate exceeded my request and expectations, instead providing me with 8 brand-new dry-film magazines-so I'll probably perform a functionality test with the older ones with the more powerful American Eagle fodder-all of the magazines mechanically locked back, so I'm loath to throw out the baby with the bath water without justification, especially since the original sets have performed so well for 7-11 years.

Obviously I'll also test the new issued magazines as well, but for the time being I'll probably keep them sealed in the treated kraft paper sealed individual envelopes they came in, except for the one I opened, and will use as a comparison with the older ones (I'm especially interested in seeing the differences in spring lengths).

While I'm not wedded to any magazine per se, I'm now slightly more inclined to believe that the one slide lock failure was more likely due to slightly under-powered last cartridge than to any of the other possible causal factors (spring/follower wear or accumulated grunge on the follower/slide stop), but we'll see.

Best, Jon

[JPedersen]

Measurements with Trausch grips:

At top screws: 1 7/8"

At thumbrest (on left grip): 1 5/16"

At narrowest portion (at midpoint of grips, between the top and bottom screws): 1 5/32"

At bottom screws: 1 11/16"

Best, Jon

Thank you so much for taking the time to measure that. It really helps get a sense of what is available now.

JDP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JonInWA]

Latest update, guys. I just replaced the 14# mainspring with the 13# one from the Wilson Combat Ultimate Action Tune Kit http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Ultimate-Action-Tune-Kit-Beretta-90-Series/productinfo/748/. There was absolutely nothing wrong or dissatisfying to me with the 14#, but I was curious to see if the 13# would run with the same exceptional reliability-and at a pound lighter.

Great news-it does. For some potential further action smoothing, I apply Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2 grease to the inside of the mainspring, which then fits over the hammer spring guide/strut. I also applied the same to the portion of the triggerbar exterior and the right grip triggerbar channel in case there's any triggerbar rub occurring when cycling the trigger.

I then tested with Federal Champion Aluminum-cased 115 gr, Federal Champion brass-cased 115 gr, Speer 124 gr +P, Hornaday Critical Duty 135 gr +P, and Federal Classic 115 gr JHP. Zero problems with chambering, ignition or extraction/ejection, and 7 yard accuracy with all was excellent; 1" to 1.5" averages.

I suspect that with the increased hammer travel/imparted hammer ignition force provided by the Wilson Combat triggerbar that I could safely go to the 12# spring, but since the gun will be used for duty carry, concealed carry, and home/nightstand defense I'll stick with the 13#.

Overall, I really like the 92D, especially with the upgraded components, sights and grips as discussed earlier in the thread. Frankly, if I was to choose another 92, it would be a very, very tough call between choosing the Langdon M9 (and subsequently upgrading the triggerbar and trigger return spring with WC components, and possibly a WC action job) or choosing the WC Brigadier Centurion, with its inherent upgrades (but still needing the WC triggerbar, trigger return spring, and possibly lightened mainspring {really, the compete Ultimate Action Tune Kit} plus possibly a WC action job...)

For me, further 92 acquisitions are a bit moot, as 1) I'm exceptionally satisfied with the 92D as it currently is, and 2) Further 92 acquisitions would need to be run before the Wifely Review Board....

Future work? Possibly obtaining a set of Langdon Tactical grips; while the Trausch grips on mine are superb, they're pretty much unobtainable, and have been so for several years; it might be interesting (and pertinent to others) to comparatively run a set of the Langdon Tactical/VZ grips, which appear to be the best of the grip-slimming alternatives currently available. The Trausch grips literally positively transform the handling of the 92; might be interesting to see how the Langdon Tacticals compare.

Eventually, when necessary I'll upgrade the locking block to the current Gen 4 Beretta block, but my Gen 2 is running flawlessly, and BUSA has advised me just to run it until any issues/appreciable wear develops.

Another possibility down the line might be to send the 92D to WC for them to perform their action tune, but mine is pretty slick as it is, and I imagine that the components are pretty well burnished in together with use, so I'm uncertain if an action job at this point would yield much more than an incremental improvement, if even that.

It's of great interest to see the "classic" 92 flourishing today, particularly with the attention and options offered by Wilson Combat and Ernest Langdon; kudos to both of them.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I had some excellent conversations with Ernest and Aimee Langdon, who have very graciously provided me with a set of their LTT Dirty Olive (in commemoration of my Army service) grips.
https://i.imgur.com/27u7Uwb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/C3OTPvX.jpg

While the Trausch grips that the late Jacques Trausch provided to me have been superb, the reality is that they have been unavailable since his untimely passing several years ago, and were never well know or effectively distributed in the US throughout their production.

The essential characteristic of the Trausch grips was their thinness, which literally transformed the handling of the Beretta 92 in a very positive sense, making it feel and handle like a single-stack pistol.
https://i.imgur.com/I9LAlP9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Axb2OwS.jpg
They were made of a fiberglass/polymer composition, and had some unique characteristics, such as a vestigial (but effective) thumb shelf on the left grip, which I found also nicely shielded an extended magazine release from being inadvertently activated if the gun was pressed down upon while lying on the left side.
https://i.imgur.com/R272TSG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wi7kH8B.jpg
The Trausch grips weren't perfect-O-rings were needed to provide enough stand-off distance from the grip screws from scratching the magazine tube sides, and on the right grip the ear tang portion tended to warp slightly away from the receiver during the grip curing process, which Jacques was never totally able to resolve-when I discussed it with him, he sent me another set-with the exact same problem. While theoretically this provided a media entry point, in actual use in my case it was a non-issue (but could have been one if the gun was exposed to high velocity particulate matter, such as Iraqi or Afghanistani fine sand from rotor-wash, for a possible example).
https://i.imgur.com/zMaabqh.jpg

I also notice that the right grip plate on the LTT's totally covers the hole in the right grip tang area on the upper trailing area of the grip that the Trausch grip and the Ergo grips leave partially exposed; the LTTs seal another potential egress area from media intrusion.
https://i.imgur.com/tQfJdTt.jpg

VZ makes the grips for LTT, which have multiple incarnations, on VZ's own proprietary site/sales, as provided to Wilson Combat (in multiple thicknesses and finishes) and to Langdon Tactical Technology, incorporating Ernest Langdon's specified directional checkering and increased checkering coverage areas on an ultra-thin grip, in ultra-strong G10 composite material.
https://www.langdontactical.com/products.html

The questions I had were these: Were the grips effective, and how would they compare to the Trausch grips, which in my experience are the gold standard in 92-series grips (for my medium-sized hands, at any rate)?

Upon arrival, I found the LTT grips to be exceptionally well made and finished, and fit perfectly on my 92D, with no gaps anywhere. There was, on the left grip, a slight hole on the rear tang portion; apparently VZ affixes the grips to some sort of a tombstone fixture during production, which I believe incorporates strong pressure and heat to form and blend multiple sheets of G10 material into a single grip panel. In the back of both grip plates, there are 2 holes, which do not correspond to any receiver pegs on the gun, so I assume that they provide receptacles for ejection pegs on the manufacturing tombstone. At any rate, at the thinnest portion, one of the recesses had partially broken through the exterior surface. This was of absolutely zero operational consequence, as the hole butts against a solid portion of the receiver, no there is no avenue for external media to penetrate further into the receiver or the action, and the strength of the grip was not compromised. Mine was a unique anomaly; neither Ernest or Aimee Langdon had seen it before, and no other user has mentioned it on any of the previous discussions of the grips.
https://i.imgur.com/D7JmYWs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KMoq4Z7.jpg


Ernest immediately offered to replace it, but I told him that it was totally unnecessary, as it was a total operational non-issue, and to preserve my sense of aesthetics (and possibly a latent OCD disorder) injected some Testor's Contour Putty from the inside of the grip, and formed to match the exterior, totally filling in the gap, and then carefully painting the area to match when cured.
https://i.imgur.com/TzjKq6H.jpg
And, since when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail, I simultaneously used the contour putty to fill in the 3 other holes, to preclude any future issues if nothing else. Again, the small hole was of no issue whatsoever, and Ernest immediately offered to replace it, which I didn't feel was necessary.

Thickness-wise, the LTT and Trausch grips are very close; I measured 3 areas: At the upper grip (at the upper screw hole surround), the center grip (at the emblem) and at the lower grip.

LTT: Upper: 1.25 centimeters Trausch: Upper: 1.2 centimeters
Middle: 1.25 (but I probably need to re-measure, as it actually appears to be thinner) Middle: 1.15 (but the thumb strake on the left grip plate is at least 1.25-1.3)
Lower: 1.3 Lower: 1.2

As seen from the grip bottom:
LTT: https://i.imgur.com/k9YED0H.jpg

Trausch: https://i.imgur.com/FoGDgjY.jpg

From Rear:
LTT: https://i.imgur.com/jn0PUWj.jpg

Trausch: https://i.imgur.com/scjzKle.jpg

From the Front:
LTT: https://i.imgur.com/x8NQKn8.jpg

Trausch: https://i.imgur.com/C90v062.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MvDoSvy.jpg

Comparatively, the Ergo Grips https://www.ergogrips.net/shop/ergo-beretta-model-92m-9-grip/
measure out at 1.3 centimeters at all 3 points, being a bit thicker throughout. The Ergo Grip stippling area corresponds pretty much with the LTT checkering area,

I've conducted on relatively brief live fire familiarization with the LTT grips; fit, feel and function is excellent. While my ultimate conclusions will be based on increased and long-term use (I will use these grips on the 92D at least through my 2018 shooting season, primarily in IDPA (both in club-level and at least one Tier III State Championship match), I'm extremely impressed impressed. The LTT grips' thinness is very close to the Trausch grips (Ernest told me that he had not targeted his grips against the Trausch-given the Trausch's low visibility in the US even when they were produced, and virtually non-existent awareness now due to their unavailability for years, that's no surprise; instead, his and VZ's target seems to have been achieving the greatest thinness without structural compromise, and maximizing grippiness, achieved bay the combination of the inherently chalky feel of G10 and Ernest's directional checkering and increased checkering surface area.

I was concerned if placing the gun on its left side and pressing down would activate the Wilson Combat Extended Round checkered magazine release, due to the LTT grip's thinness and the lack of a protective strake.
https://i.imgur.com/x8NQKn8.jpg
The answer appears to be "no," as the protrusion of the slide release provides enough stand-off distance, at least on hard surfaces. However, on surfaces with any give, the magazine release can be activated when the gun is pushed down upon, so this is something I'll have to be cognizant of, particularly regarding holster selection primarily (with my existing Olen kydex holsters it's a non-issue, and for nightstand use with the gun placed left-side down on a flat hardwood nightstand, it's a non-issue.

Another potential issue area that has raised its head with the VZ G10 grips has been that of triggerbar rub, where the triggerbar rubs against the side of the grip interior in the grip's triggerbar channel during trigger manipulation. On my LTT/VZ grips, this has been a non-issue, but as a proactive measure I also applied Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2 grease to both the raised triggerbar horizontal flange and in the grip triggerbar channel itself. The triggerbar that I'm using is the Wilson Combat/Langdon thorough-hardened improved triggerbar, which I thoroughly impressed with as discussed earlier in the thread; I'm glad that there are no issues with it whatsoever with my LTT/VZ grips.

Aesthetically, appearance, fit and finish of the LTT grips are excellent, providing a nice "pride of ownership" factor. The LTT impressed emblems are subdued and tasteful. In short, I really like how the grips are designed, feel, function and look. While the Trausch grips still probably hold the award for ultimate thinness, the LTT/VZs are very, very close, so that in a practicality it's pretty much a wash when comparing them to each other And, the LTT/VZ grips available, and at a reasonable price; the Trausch grips are pretty much made of unobtanium. The LTT/VZ G10 material is inherently superior, in my opinion, in both providing a non-slip feel and in strength. Ernest recommends using O-rings (as opposed to Beretta lock washers) to secure the grips and preclude screws from backing out in use from vibration. I use 2 of Challis' excellent O-rings per individual screw. (specifically designed for firearms grip screws in terms of material composition and size/thickness)http://www.challisgrips.com/p/107-Bushing-O-ring-8-pieces.aspx.

Many thanks to Ernest and Aimee Langdon for their interest and support (and their continued interest and support towards collaboratively working with Beretta and Wilson Combat into providing improvements and refinements to the Beretta 92 and PX platforms, significantly improving their viability and performance), and I'm very much looking forward to the LTT grips long-term use on the 92D.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Another item of minor interest regarding the physical features of the LTT/VZ grips in comparison to others its that the other grips on their interior all have either oval bracing or a raised oval block to fit into the receiver's magazine window on the sides of the receiver. The LTT/VZ grips index and are secured around the vertical buttress and the grip screw bushing bosses only; my thoughts are that the increased inherent strength of the G10 material precludes the need for additional interior grip blocking and/or bracing.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

May 2018 Update: I'm into the second month of my commitment to the 92D as my primary carry/duty/competition pistol. Yesterday's IDPA match with it went extremely well, despite my fighting a case of tendonitis, which really significantly slowed me down (not that I'm noted as the speediest of shooters anyhow-actually, quite the opposite...).

In a 7 stage match where I expended some 131 rounds, I experienced zero operational issues, and was only 24 points down for the entire match (and frankly, 10 of those points were accumulated in 1 fell swoop when I totally failed to engage a target after a reload-a great situational awareness learning point...).

The 92D is exceptionally inherently accurate, but the Wilson Combat Ultimate Tune Kit, Langdon Tactical grips and Tool Tech/Trijicon sights really enable the platform to come together as a synchronized machine. As Enel mentioned in another 92D post, these guns are just flat-out fun to shoot, and are exceptionally rewarding of technique concentration and practice (a daily dryfire program has really paid off in spades for me). I am appreciating how the gun indexes and retains stability throughout the draw, sight acquisition and firing/follow-through sequences. The triggerpull with the WC triggerbar, 13# mainspring, WC trigger return spring, and Wolff triggerbar spring is exceptional. I'm using a 14# extra power WC chrome silicon recoil spring for all-around use. The WC checkered extended magazine release works quite nicely for expediting magazine exchanges.

Ammunition used was Federal Champion aluminum-cased 115 gr, ostensibly providing a 131 power factor (but similarly loaded brass-cased 115 gr Champion chrono'ed out at 126 power factor, out of the same gun last year in summer temperatures of around 75-80 degrees)-for this year's State IDPA CHampionshio match, I'll be using American Eagle for a 135 power factor-the 126 achieved with the Champion was a bit too close to comfort regarding a 125 power factor floor, especially for a major match.

Holster used was my Olen IWB pancake, secured with 2 aggressive loop clips. Magazines were Check-Mate dry-film; no issues were encountered despite the magazines being dropped in fine power-like dirt throughout the match. Magazine pouch was a Tactical Tailor dual Magna unit, with rare earth magnets integrally embedded in the pouch body, which enabled me to carry the magazines upside-down securely, regardless of physical movement. Instead of having to yank up (or flip outward) my cover garment for magazine access, I merely reach under the garment, grab the magazine, and yank down. I've experimented with this for several years, and it works well with practice. It's a useful technique with Hawaiian-type shirts and similar.

Best, Jon

[Jeep]

Jon: Really informative write ups. You might want to experiment with the 11# spring. I tried an 11# spring from Langdon Tactical (with one end nicely polished) in my 92D and--to my surprise--I have the better part of 1000 rounds through it with no failures to fire. Meanwhile the trigger pull is amazing--extremely smooth.

Langdon Tactical is changing the Beretta 92.

[JonInWA]

Hmmmm....what cartridges have you used with it? Best, Jon

[Jeep]

Federal 115 BPLE, 147 gr. HST, Winchester 124 NATO, Mag Tech 115; S&B 124 so far. No Russian stuff or Privi Partisan with really hard primers yet. I do have a Wilson trigger bar in and given how far it causes the hammer to go back, I think it might even bust those primers. When I get a chance I will test some.

[CraigS]

Jon, got to Beretta Forum, Beretta Smithing and Maintenance, and look for a thread near the top called Results of Installing a Trigger Job in a Bag, and click on the last page. You will see a discussion there by Diva and myself about her TJIB in her 92D. She is using an 11# spring w/ TJIB very successfully. There are several reasons discussed as to why it works including two directly from Ernest. I can't use the 11# in my SA/DA 92s but her D runs it just fine.

[JonInWA]

Thanks, don't know why I hadn't read that thread before. Make sure you invite Diva to join us here on p-f. I'm reasonably conversant in things 92D, but I never knew the 92D came with a one-piece firing pin, and the energy transfer benefits of it. Ernest's comments were interesting. I'm very satisfied with the 13# WC mainspring, but then I was pleased with their 14# one that I had in before. Thanks for the suggestion/temptation; I'll probably discuss a bit further with Ernest before doing either a 12# or 11#, as mine is used for carry, duty and IDPA. Best, Jon

[Jeep]

Jon, got to Beretta Forum, Beretta Smithing and Maintenance, and look for a thread near the top called Results of Installing a Trigger Job in a Bag, and click on the last page. You will see a discussion there by Diva and myself about her TJIB in her 92D. She is using an 11# spring w/ TJIB very successfully. There are several reasons discussed as to why it works including two directly from Ernest. I can't use the 11# in my SA/DA 92s but her D runs it just fine.

I'm not sure that the full TJIB is necessary with the 92D. You don't need the single-action sear or a hammer with SA hooks, so to me it makes sense just to get the Wilson trigger bar along with a Langdon Tactical hammer spring that is polished at the bottom, and then polish the hammer strut and trigger bar where needed. Doing that with an 11# hammer spring gave my 92D (I should note it is a Centurion in case that makes a difference) an extremely smooth trigger pull.

[CraigS]

Jeep, that is true. i don't know exact details but LTT made a TJIB specifically for her and the 92D. I don't know specifics about what is in it but I am sure it doesn't have sear etc.

[JonInWA]

The last time Ernest and I talked, he had only provided action jobs that he remembered to two 92Ds, which may be a testament to: 1. The innate goodness of the 92D's inherent action qualities; and 2. The relatively low numbers of 92Ds out there, let alone used by those that really appreciate both them and what Ernest can provide. I expect that the TJIB will expand that number, but basically (as Jeep laid out) for a 92D I'd argue that for a 92D, because of its simplified/reduced components, all you really need for a 92D TJIB is the WC triggerbar, Langdon-polished hammer strut, WC reduced power mainspring(s), trigger spring, and WC trigger return spring.

Again, simply by eliminating the sear (and associated sear components) and accordingly cleaning up the hammer on the 92D, Beretta inherently provided a really exceptional trigger pull right out of the box on these guns.

The most significant single component is the WC triggerbar, which enables you to use lower-power mainsprings (I'm personally using the 13# WC one, but this thread has provided some pretty convincing evidence that a 92D can operate with 12# or even an 11# mainspring, at least with Federal and similar primers).

Another subtle, but very worthwhile consideration for many would be to concurrently swap your grips to the ultra thin Langdon/VZ G10 grips-they significantly transform the handling of the gun and aid in trigger manipulation.

My WC triggerbar was a drop-in, but most of them are these days, as WC slightly modified them some time back to preclude relatively inexperienced users filing too much material off and rendering 'em useless in the process.

A conversation that I had with one of WC reps about a year ago about the WC short trigger was interesting; he did not recommend it for the 92D, as the OEM trigger provides the ideal leveraging and geometry for the 92D's DAO operation. Fortunately, all 92Ds by definition (unless they've been owner modified) come with the all-steel Bruniton treated trigger, which gives a user the ability to go with a Wolff TCU trigger return spring set-up if desired). I'm personally currently running my 92D with a WC chrome silicon conventional trigger return spring-the Woldd reduced power TCU that I'd run for years simply didn't have enough "oomph" for the trigger return with the WC triggerbar.

Best, Jon

[Jeep]

I am going to have to try the Langdon ultra thin grips on my 92D. Great idea, Jon.

[CraigS]

The LTT grips are very nice. I installed on my EII and found that they were actually a little too thin for me. Apparently I have long fingers.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4606/38431265210_fd2bc3c6d2_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21y3hdS)20180213_073434 (https://flic.kr/p/21y3hdS) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
So I have switched to the Stoner cnc super aggressive pattern
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/905/41231018564_57e737bcd7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/25PrKmq)20180507_070849 (https://flic.kr/p/25PrKmq) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr

[JonInWA]

The LTT grips are very nice. I installed on my EII and found that they were actually a little too thin for me. Apparently I have long fingers.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4606/38431265210_fd2bc3c6d2_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21y3hdS)20180213_073434 (https://flic.kr/p/21y3hdS) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
So I have switched to the Stoner cnc super aggressive pattern
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/905/41231018564_57e737bcd7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/25PrKmq)20180507_070849 (https://flic.kr/p/25PrKmq) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr

Nice grips, Craig. While the Langdon grips (and similarly thin Trausch grips) are perfect for my hand size on a Beretta 92, I had the same dilemma with Craig Spegel grips on a Hi Power. He made a magnificent set of his Kingwood grips for me- and with them my trigger finger protruded just too far. I switched to thicker Hogue rubber, and more recently to a set of very nice Hogue G19s. Sometimes why is an optimum solution/best quality simply doesn't work on an individual basis... Best, Jon

[Gadfly]

Great thread. Love the D series. Carried a 96D Brig as an issued duty gun for a few year. My only complaint? The size ( especially for only having 12 on board). But the best DOA pull around...

I enjoyed reading this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TheNewbie]

Great thread. Love the D series. Carried a 96D Brig as an issued duty gun for a few year. My only complaint? The size ( especially for only having 12 on board). But the best DOA pull around...

I enjoyed reading this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

How did you like the D series trigger pull as compered to a DAK or LEM?

[Gadfly]

How did you like the D series trigger pull as compered to a DAK or LEM?

The D reminded me of a good revolver. Regular DA/SA pistols made me think a DAO gun would be awful, and 12lbs per pull. Once I was issued the 96D Brig, it was "pass the qual or find a new job". So I was forced to learn it, and surprisingly, I liked it. Mine was about 7.5 to 8lb and smooth as glass. And the more I shot it, the better it got. It was just a really big gun.

We transitioned in 2001 to the LEM. In fact the LEM (law enforcement modification) came about from our adoption of the USPc in DAO. In testing, Female Instructors were having trouble with the DAO. It was bad, like 13 lbs. HQ thought if the female instructors cant run this thing, then the female field agents will have serious issues. So HK went to the drawing board and essentially made a single action gun, that looks DAO. The main spring is stored at full tension... its cocked. But the hammer rests in the forward position, independent of the fully cocked mainspring. Your trigger pull moved the hammer to line up with the mainspring strut, then releases both. LEM is cocked and unlocked. I was not a huge fan. Its not a bad trigger, but overall, I did not like it. Super light pull up to a wall. It was a great trigger to shoot slow and deliberate, but I just could never run it at full speed worth a shit.

In 2003, DHS was formed, and in 2004 we began to issue the DAK. Being a fan of the D, I took to the DAK better than the LEM. The sig had a slightly lighter pull of 6.5 to 7 lbs, and it had a smaller grip circumference and one more round in the mag. No complaints. But overall, I thought the Beretta just felt smoother. The slide movement was smoother, the trigger was a little longer and heavier, but was smoother. The DAK was good, and shootable, but it just felt lower quality.

I carry a Glock now, and soon we will begin to issue the P320.

I would not feel undergunned with ANY of those. First choice will probably always be Glock in 9mm, follow by the DAK just because it was a little smaller than the Beretta. Then the way last choice would be the HK LEM.

[JonInWA]

Interesting; until I really concentrated on the 92D, I tended to shoot my 9mm Glocks the best. This year I've chosen to concentrate on only 2 platforms; the Hk P30L .40 in V1 light LEM, and the 92D. Between Glock, HK and Beretta, in most situations at this point I tend to shoot the Beretta the best overall, the Glock the fastest, and the HK the most instinctively. I previously owned a 2006-vintage rounded-triggerguard P229 DAK in .40 and .357 SIG. Mine was the early DAK, with the lighter mainspring; .40 required no break-in, .357 SIG required about a 100 round break-in as I recall to eliminate a few initial light strikes (later production P229s had heavier mainsprings to eliminate the break-in period. While I had it for 5-plus years, I never ran it or used it heavily. The DAK oddities made it a sort of one-and-only platform to me, which I was insufficiency enamoured with the DAK to do. I find the 02D and LEM easier to use, and frankly prefer the Beretta, HK and Glock to the P229. But I freely admit that may be just me. Best, Jon

[ragnar_d]

Between this thread and all the LTT love recently, I have a feeling I'm going to end up with a Beretta or 5 before the year is out. I've been messing around with a couple various DA/SA and a few others (DAO and Revolvers) . . . the tupperware isn't going anywhere, but I think I'm going to start looking at some of the "forgotten" guns.

Great thread @JonInWA

[Bigghoss]

Just won a 92D on Gunbroker, one of those underbid because you probably won't get it that cheap things. The dude that was bidding against me gave up $9 before my max bid.

[TheNewbie]

How difficult would it be to convert a 92fs to DAO? Will beretta do this ?

[Bigghoss]

How difficult would it be to convert a 92fs to DAO? Will beretta do this ?

You could sell the FS and buy a D and have money left over.

[TheNewbie]

You could sell the FS and buy a D and have money left over.

Wise words.

[Joe in PNG]

How difficult would it be to convert a 92fs to DAO? Will beretta do this ?

It's not too hard- remove the sear, spring, and pin from the frame, then add a D hammer. You will still have the safety on the slide.

[NPV]

Just won a 92D on Gunbroker, one of those underbid because you probably won't get it that cheap things. The dude that was bidding against me gave up $9 before my max bid.

I was watching that one, you got a smoking deal on it. I forgot to bid last night.

[CraigS]

It's not too hard- remove the sear, spring, and pin from the frame, then add a D hammer. You will still have the safety on the slide.

You can even skip the D hammer if you want. If you want to try D, to see if you like it,removing the sear, pin, and spring is easy and only a little harder to reverse. So the experiment is essentially free. But to really blow your mind grab an 11# and a 12# spring from LTT. I know the 12# will work fine but the 11# may require a Wilson trigger bar to be reliable.

[Bigghoss]

I was watching that one, you got a smoking deal on it. I forgot to bid last night.

Good news for me. I also bought the 92 compact here in the classified section. I told myself I was going to hold off buying more guns until I was done buying parts for what I have but I keep finding deals on stuff I've been wanting for a while. Helps that it's stuff I already am familiar with and have mags for.

[Jeep]

You can even skip the D hammer if you want. If you want to try D, to see if you like it,removing the sear, pin, and spring is easy and only a little harder to reverse. So the experiment is essentially free. But to really blow your mind grab an 11# and a 12# spring from LTT. I know the 12# will work fine but the 11# may require a Wilson trigger bar to be reliable.

With the Wilson trigger bar, LTT ultra thin grips and the 11# LTT spring its a bit like having a well-worn-in 15-17 shot S&W round-butt K frame. Not a beginners' gun perhaps, but a really nice pistol.

[revchuck38]

With the Wilson trigger bar, LTT ultra thin grips and the 11# LTT spring its a bit like having a well-worn-in 15-17 shot S&W round-butt K frame. Not a beginners' gun perhaps, but a really nice pistol.

This is pretty much how I think of my PX4 D - an 18-shot four inch K frame.

[AdioSS]

You can even skip the D hammer if you want. If you want to try D, to see if you like it,removing the sear, pin, and spring is easy and only a little harder to reverse. So the experiment is essentially free. But to really blow your mind grab an 11# and a 12# spring from LTT. I know the 12# will work fine but the 11# may require a Wilson trigger bar to be reliable.

My suggestion is to push the pin from the right side toward the spring, but not far enough to release the spring. That way if you decide to switch back to DA/SA it will be a little easier. That sear spring isn’t the easiest thing to install.

[Bigghoss]

Picked up my 92D yesterday, very well worn but serviceable. The trigger feels a touch lighter and smoother than my FS pistols with D springs but that probably, at least in part, is the result of numerous trigger pulls compared to my two FS guns with D springs. I'm looking forward to tinkering with this thing. I need to find a 92D Centurion.

[Bigghoss]

Just won a 92D Centurion on GB. I really shouldn't have but I've been wanting one for a while. I really dig the spurless hammer and slick slide on the shorter barrel slide.

[Bigghoss]

Just picked up this 92D Centruion. I dislike the Houge grips but I don't have any spare grips or washers at the moment so they'll have to stay for a bit. This one has a smoother trigger than the fullsize I got recently but there was some stacking so I pulled the hammer spring and polished the end. I can only feel a little bit of stacking right at the end now. And that's before a Wilson trigger bar or 14# hammer spring. This could end up being my favorite pistol.

https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37800381_10156223346125219_7946391256601460736_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b6d79cbda479a926ea53f023e0b12e1f&oe=5C112BA8

[TheNewbie]

Just picked up this 92D Centruion. I dislike the Houge grips but I don't have any spare grips or washers at the moment so they'll have to stay for a bit. This one has a smoother trigger than the fullsize I got recently but there was some stacking so I pulled the hammer spring and polished the end. I can only feel a little bit of stacking right at the end now. And that's before a Wilson trigger bar or 14# hammer spring. This could end up being my favorite pistol.

https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37800381_10156223346125219_7946391256601460736_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b6d79cbda479a926ea53f023e0b12e1f&oe=5C112BA8


Neat gun but I'm with you, needs different grips.

What's the size comparison vs a regular 92?

[Bigghoss]

Neat gun but I'm with you, needs different grips.

What's the size comparison vs a regular 92?

Centurions have a compact barrel and slide on a fullsize grip. I think it's just over 1/2" shorter. Not a massive difference but enough to be noticeable in appearance, balance, and feel while the slide is cycling.

[AdioSS]

The Hogue wraparounds are a bit much. The standard Hogue grip panels work great. I modified a set to fit my Billennium. But, the newer thin G10 grips are very popular these days.

[Bigghoss]

The Hogue wraparounds are a bit much. The standard Hogue grip panels work great. I modified a set to fit my Billennium. But, the newer thin G10 grips are very popular these days.

I bought a set of LTT ultra thins and they look awesome and have great grip but they're too thin for my hands. The standard thickness is just right for me. I have a used Centurion FS that came with standard thickness VZs that fit me so I'll be putting those on all my Berettas eventually.

[JonInWA]

If the VZ/Langdon/Wilson ultra-thin grips are too thin than I'd also suggest the Ergo Beretta 92 grips, which not only work exceptionally well, but are also a significant value at only $26.75;
https://www.ergogrips.net/shop/ergo-beretta-model-92m-9-grip/.

I bought a set during a group buy that the company set up for berettaforum members and used them for several years before going to the Trausch and ultimately the Langdon/VZ grips. The Ergo grips are about the same thickness as the OEM Beretta grips, but are significantly grippier, and are available in both black and FDE.

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0846.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0846.jpg.html)

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0844.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0844.jpg.html)

Best, Jon

[Doc_Glock]

Just picked up this 92D Centruion. I dislike the Houge grips but I don't have any spare grips or washers at the moment so they'll have to stay for a bit. This one has a smoother trigger than the fullsize I got recently but there was some stacking so I pulled the hammer spring and polished the end. I can only feel a little bit of stacking right at the end now. And that's before a Wilson trigger bar or 14# hammer spring. This could end up being my favorite pistol.

https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37800381_10156223346125219_7946391256601460736_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b6d79cbda479a926ea53f023e0b12e1f&oe=5C112BA8


Check out Stoner CNC grips as well. On EBay, Amazon, and a bit cheaper on Etsy, whatever that is?

28510

[Bigghoss]

Check out Stoner CNC grips as well. On EBay, Amazon, and a bit cheaper on Etsy, whatever that is?

28510

Found them on Amazon. I'll use the affiliate link at the top of the page to order them from Amazon so PFC gets a kickback.

[JHC]

PSA:

I just saw two D's at Dawsonville Guns. A Centurion and a 92D. $399 and $429 respectively.

Seemed like good prices.

[Bigghoss]

PSA:

I just saw two D's at Dawsonville Guns. A Centurion and a 92D. $399 and $429 respectively.

Seemed like good prices.

That's a fair price for the Centurion. If the standard model is really nice it might be worth it but LEO trade-in guns run ~$300.

[Jeep]

PSA:

I just saw two D's at Dawsonville Guns. A Centurion and a 92D. $399 and $429 respectively.

Seemed like good prices.

Where I live those are quite good prices unless they are beat to death. I really like my Centurion D (with new springs, a Wilson trigger bar, and a 11 pound mainspring from Langdon Tactical). I bought it because a D pistol always seemed to be a good idea to me, but as we all know, lots of things that might be good in theory turn out to be less-than-fully-enchanting in practice. I've let a number of people shoot it, and universally their question is where can they get a D model?

The D Berettas will never be the pistols that can fire a full mag the fastest, but of course that isn't what they are designed for.

[JonInWA]

I'd like to see Beretta re-introduce the 92D, ideally as a variant of the Langdon M9, with the orange front sight, extended magazine release, and Langdon grips (perhaps in a different color to differentiate it from the Langdon M9).

That, and a Langdon TJIB would be a superb new carry pistol.

Ditto for a Centurion version.

Erik, Ernest (and Bill), any interest?

Best, Jon

[Bigghoss]

I'd like to see Beretta re-introduce the 92D, ideally as a variant of the Langdon M9, with the orange front sight, extended magazine release, and Langdon grips (perhaps in a different color to differentiate it from the Langdon M9).

That, and a Langdon TJIB would be a superb new carry pistol.

Ditto for a Centurion version.

Erik, Ernest (and Bill), any interest?

Best, Jon

I would be down for a special edition or semi-custom 92D Centurion. Something like a Wilson Combat CenTac type D or a Langdon Tactical Elite III Centurion D.

[TheNewbie]

I'd like to see Beretta re-introduce the 92D, ideally as a variant of the Langdon M9, with the orange front sight, extended magazine release, and Langdon grips (perhaps in a different color to differentiate it from the Langdon M9).

That, and a Langdon TJIB would be a superb new carry pistol.

Ditto for a Centurion version.

Erik, Ernest (and Bill), any interest?

Best, Jon

I would like it. Though I prefer all black guns for duty/carry, so I would prefer normal grips, but grips could always be changed out.

Add a smaller single stack version of a 92D in the mix (maybe Shield size) , and my Glock 17/26 combo would go away.

[Robinson]

If the 92D was a current production model my recent foray into the G34 probably would not be happening. I really like the 92 series pistols, but my short busted up thumb can't manipulate the safety/de-cocker worth a darn.

[Bigghoss]

If the VZ/Langdon/Wilson ultra-thin grips are too thin than I'd also suggest the Ergo Beretta 92 grips, which not only work exceptionally well, but are also a significant value at only $26.75;
https://www.ergogrips.net/shop/ergo-beretta-model-92m-9-grip/.

I bought a set during a group buy that the company set up for berettaforum members and used them for several years before going to the Trausch and ultimately the Langdon/VZ grips. The Ergo grips are about the same thickness as the OEM Beretta grips, but are significantly grippier, and are available in both black and FDE.

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0846.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0846.jpg.html)

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0844.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/JonInWA/media/Beretta%2092D/DSCN0844.jpg.html)

Best, Jon

I found these on Amazon too, both black and sand color. I ended up buying a set of the ergos because they're half the price and because they're on Amazon I used the affiliate link at the top to order them and a couple other things.

I also ordered trigger return springs, recoil springs, and 14# hammer springs from Wilson Combat. I'll get trigger bars later.

[Jeep]

I found these on Amazon too, both black and sand color. I ended up buying a set of the ergos because they're half the price and because they're on Amazon I used the affiliate link at the top to order them and a couple other things.

I also ordered trigger return springs, recoil springs, and 14# hammer springs from Wilson Combat. I'll get trigger bars later.

When you get a Wilson trigger bar, try the 11# spring (and if that is too light, the 12#). It is amazing.

[GyroF-16]

When you get a Wilson trigger bar, try the 11# spring (and if that is too light, the 12#). It is amazing.

I second this.
With the trigger bar and these springs, the DA pull is significantly improved over a D-spring (which was pretty good to begin with). I had occasional light strikes with the 11# spring, but none with the 12#.

[Bigghoss]

I have a #12 spring in a gun I was going to buy a TJIB for so I may swap those out. I'm going to have to start keeping files on what gun has what in it.

The D trigger is already perfectly manageable as is so I'm excited to see how this goes. I wonder if Beretta could do a type C 92. That would be sweet. Anyway, should be able to get close enough with what's available on the aftermarket.

[Willard]

Would love to see the D model return to production. Frankly, I'd probably consolidate on a few of these with some stragglers from other companies and thin the herd considerably.

[AdioSS]

The D trigger is already perfectly manageable as is so I'm excited to see how this goes. I wonder if Beretta could do a type C 92. That would be sweet. Anyway, should be able to get close enough with what's available on the aftermarket.
The PX4 Type C hammer does fit in the 92, but would require the addition of sear parts. The PX4 Type C sear is different than the standard PX4 sear by just a little bit. My bedside pistol is a .40 90-two lower with a 96D Brigadier upper that has a Type C hammer and The Wilson Combat Trigger bar. (But oddly enough, my PX4 Type C currently has the FS Action parts...)

[Bigghoss]

Got the Wilson 14# hammer springs installed. On both my guns it reduced the trigger pull by roughly 1/4lb bringing them to about 9lbs but both feel a bit smoother and stacking felt reduced as well. The set of Ergo grips I received did not fit great and kinda had to be forced on and they're a little bit thicker but do offer some improvement for grip. If you want maybe a small bit more girth in the grip they might be an option for you but for me the factory grip is the prefect thickness so I may send them back.

[JonInWA]

Quick update: After approximately 12K rounds, I decided to replace my 1996-vintage OEM Gen 2 locking block with the current one, a Gen 3 https://berettaforum.net/vb/showpost.php?p=969773&postcount=18 (While my 92D was manufactured in 1996, I didn't actually buy it, BNIB until 2006, which was its actual commencement of use date).

And a lengthier discussion of Beretta locking blocks is here: https://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=45325

While mine with its OEM Gen 2 was running just fine, I decided it would be prudent simply to replace it, as "normal" locking block anomalies have been seen to crop up as early as the 12K point. (Outlier issues, while unusual, can crop up both earlier and later, and "normal" forecasted locking block longevity is around the 15K to 20K roundcount from what I've read and researched on these earlier locking blocks, and at the 20K to 30K interval for the later current Gen 3 locking blocks. So replacing mine at its roundcount was arguably overkill, but I'm considering it inexpensive preventive maintenance.

Erik Stern at BUSA (and a p-f member and participant) and I recently had an excellent discussion on it; he suggested that the replacement block normally doesn't need to be fitted, but to watch for any eccentric wear in the slide from the previous block buy looking for an even fit with no light bars showing when the new one is installed. Mine seems to fit nicely with no additional fitting needed. If fitting is needed, it's essential to do it, as the replacement block's longevity can be severely compromised by the eccentric wear/stress it has to deal with.

While a pretty straightforward and simple process, BUSA has an excellent Youtube segment that I strongly recommend watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWO5cBl1FvI

It's easy to follow, with some very succinct tips. For a punch, since the retaining pin is a roll pin, I used a roll pin punch, which speeds up and stabilizes the process (both on pin removal and installation), and eliminates damage to the old roll pin (which of course I immediately lost on my garage workshop floor when attempting to bag it for potential re-use...).

Beretta has 2 locking block kits, one with a replacement recoil spring and the other without it. Since I'm running a Wilson Combat 14# silicon chrome recoil spring, I opted for the kit without, which includes the locking block, plunger pin, and retaining roll pin.

I wiped down the new block and plunger pin with Weapon Shield prior to installation, and also placed some Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2 grease in the portion of the barrel lug that the nose of the locking block fits and moves.

It's really just a 5 minute job at most.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Latest update: With p-f member Jeep's suggestions and guidance, and after watching a YouTube segment twice on 92 slide disassembly, I just removed my extractor, firing pin block and firing pin, cleaning and re-lubricating as necessary, and replacing the OEM firing pin spring with one of Wilson Combat's chrome silicon firing pin spring. Here are the details, in all the glorious micro-detailed discussion that you guys have come to expect from me:

Done Jeep-and thanks for the encouragement and guidance. Pretty straightforward, as you said. I annually remove, clean and re-spring my extractor (the re-springing part is as necessary, which is really probably never, but since Wilson Combat provided me with 2 flavors of their chrome silicon extractor springs {standard and +), last year I removed my OEM Beretta one for the heck of it, and used the standard weight Wilson Combat one-its running just fine).

The firing pin block removal was very straightforward-just punch out the retaining roll pin with a 1/16th" roll pin punch, push down from the top (with a thumb on the rear of the firing pin to preclude it from launching into orbit), and it falls out (there's a small coil spring that tensions it, I removed it as well) and then pulled out the firing pin and firing pin spring (which was a little stubborn, and a Q-Tip was used to pull it out). While you could probably get away with using a flat 1/16th" punch, the roll pin punch both helps in the removal and re-installation process, and maintains the integrity of the roll pin itself, so using the right tools pays off-in this case the 2 sets of Lyman pistol maintenance punches (one standard flat, one roll-pin) I've invested in.

All components were de-grunged, cleaned, and lightly lubed with Dri-Slide, a molybdenum disulfate dry film lubrication solution suspended in a liquid carrier-the liquid carrier solution evaporates, and you have an evenly deposited a dry lubricant film that lubricates without serving as a GSR magnet. The Beretta manual recommends a drop of lubricant applied to the firing pin hole at the breech and at the back of the firing pin where it projects from the back of the slide, but I much prefer the dry-film lubricant approach for theses assemblies.

There really wasn't all that much accumulated on the firing pin, extractor and locking block, or in the firing pin, firing pin block and extractor chambers. It was worthwhile going in, but probably annually is sufficient for the extractor, and every couple of years for the firing pin/firing pin block. But since it's so easy on the D model, I'll probably just do the full meal deal annually.

Despite that the OEM firing pin spring was running fine, since Wilson Combat had also graciously provided me with one of their chrome silicon firing pin springs, I replaced the OEM one with it (the Tech at BUSA that I spoke with yesterday said that he'd personally never seen or heard of an OEM firing pin spring breaking or losing tensility, but since I was already in there, I might as well just replace the original spring with a new one...). (And yes, I'm keeping the OEM one, just in case...).

After reassembling everything, the extractor retaining pin needs to be re-staked (well, actually, it's the metal on the slide surrounding the extractor pin's hole that needs to be re-staked). Not much metal is required to be moved to accomplish this, and some 92 users have reported that the pin stays in place without re-staking, but I personally always do it. using a couple of hammer taps to a judiciously-placed small flat screwdriver blade, and then retouching with a dab of Birchwood Casey Black paint.

Everytime I go into my Beretta 92, I'm reminded of the quality of the design and manufacturing that went into it. For example, when you re-insert the firing pin locking block and its spring, the firing pin nicely locks the assembly into place, making it easy to re-insert the roll pin used to secure it-no "three-handed drill" necessary (as compared to, say, replacing the extractor and firing pin stop on a 1911, especially a Series 80 firing pin safety on a 1911...). These are simply magnificently designed and manufactured pistols, and ones that we can thoroughly appreciate and use as designed. While my appreciation is more on the pragmatic side, it's is fun participating in the recent 92 Series Renaissance that seems to be occurring, and concurrently appreciating how Bill Wilson, Ernest Langdon and others are applying their efforts to tangibly improve the platform (and in how both Bill Wilson, Ernest Langdon, Erik Stern, Jackie, Joe and Brandon at Check-Mate Industries, the late Jacques Trausch and Tool Tech have personally contributed in the upgrades and improvements to mine).

Best, Jon

[Johnny Walker]

Latest update: With p-f member Jeep's suggestions and guidance, and after watching a YouTube segment twice on 92 slide disassembly, I just removed my extractor, firing pin block and firing pin, cleaning and re-lubricating as necessary, and replacing the OEM firing pin spring with one of Wilson Combat's chrome silicon firing pin spring. Here are the details, in all the glorious micro-detailed discussion that you guys have come to expect from me:

Done Jeep-and thanks for the encouragement and guidance. Pretty straightforward, as you said. I annually remove, clean and re-spring my extractor (the re-springing part is as necessary, which is really probably never, but since Wilson Combat provided me with 2 flavors of their chrome silicon extractor springs {standard and +), last year I removed my OEM Beretta one for the heck of it, and used the standard weight Wilson Combat one-its running just fine).

The firing pin block removal was very straightforward-just punch out the retaining roll pin with a 1/16th" roll pin punch, push down from the top (with a thumb on the rear of the firing pin to preclude it from launching into orbit), and it falls out (there's a small coil spring that tensions it, I removed it as well) and then pulled out the firing pin and firing pin spring (which was a little stubborn, and a Q-Tip was used to pull it out). While you could probably get away with using a flat 1/16th" punch, the roll pin punch both helps in the removal and re-installation process, and maintains the integrity of the roll pin itself, so using the right tools pays off-in this case the 2 sets of Lyman pistol maintenance punches (one standard flat, one roll-pin) I've invested in.

All components were de-grunged, cleaned, and lightly lubed with Dri-Slide, a molybdenum disulfate dry film lubrication solution suspended in a liquid carrier-the liquid carrier solution evaporates, and you have an evenly deposited a dry lubricant film that lubricates without serving as a GSR magnet. The Beretta manual recommends a drop of lubricant applied to the firing pin hole at the breech and at the back of the firing pin where it projects from the back of the slide, but I much prefer the dry-film lubricant approach for theses assemblies.

There really wasn't all that much accumulated on the firing pin, extractor and locking block, or in the firing pin, firing pin block and extractor chambers. It was worthwhile going in, but probably annually is sufficient for the extractor, and every couple of years for the firing pin/firing pin block. But since it's so easy on the D model, I'll probably just do the full meal deal annually.

Despite that the OEM firing pin spring was running fine, since Wilson Combat had also graciously provided me with one of their chrome silicon firing pin springs, I replaced the OEM one with it (the Tech at BUSA that I spoke with yesterday said that he'd personally never seen or heard of an OEM firing pin spring breaking or losing tensility, but since I was already in there, I might as well just replace the original spring with a new one...). (And yes, I'm keeping the OEM one, just in case...).

After reassembling everything, the extractor retaining pin needs to be re-staked (well, actually, it's the metal on the slide surrounding the extractor pin's hole that needs to be re-staked). Not much metal is required to be moved to accomplish this, and some 92 users have reported that the pin stays in place without re-staking, but I personally always do it. using a couple of hammer taps to a judiciously-placed small flat screwdriver blade, and then retouching with a dab of Birchwood Casey Black paint.

Everytime I go into my Beretta 92, I'm reminded of the quality of the design and manufacturing that went into it. For example, when you re-insert the firing pin locking block and its spring, the firing pin nicely locks the assembly into place, making it easy to re-insert the roll pin used to secure it-no "three-handed drill" necessary (as compared to, say, replacing the extractor and firing pin stop on a 1911, especially a Series 80 firing pin safety on a 1911...). These are simply magnificently designed and manufactured pistols, and ones that we can thoroughly appreciate and use as designed. While my appreciation is more on the pragmatic side, it's is fun participating in the recent 92 Series Renaissance that seems to be occurring, and concurrently appreciating how Bill Wilson, Ernest Langdon and others are applying their efforts to tangibly improve the platform (and in how both Bill Wilson, Ernest Langdon, Erik Stern, Jackie, Joe and Brandon at Check-Mate Industries, the late Jacques Trausch and Tool Tech have personally contributed in the upgrades and improvements to mine).

Best, Jon

Jon

Love the whole 92D series and I appreciate you keeping us all in the loop. Your work inspired me to bring out my '02 vintage 92D. I have given the old gal a bit of wilson/langdon love via new grips, springs, ditched the lanyard loop and installed Wilson mag guide, steel guide rod, etc. I love this thing~! Now thinking of the TJIB from LTT. I agree that once you delve into the gun its apparent the sound engineering and workmanship which went into the 92 design. I have reached out to Tool Tech for relamping my front sight.. I like the orange ring / tritium insert you have on your gun. With all the updated work, I may just run this one in IDPA at some point in the near future....Keep the updates flowing....

[JonInWA]

Jon

Love the whole 92D series and I appreciate you keeping us all in the loop. Your work inspired me to bring out my '02 vintage 92D. I have given the old gal a bit of wilson/langdon love via new grips, springs, ditched the lanyard loop and installed Wilson mag guide, steel guide rod, etc. I love this thing~! Now thinking of the TJIB from LTT. I agree that once you delve into the gun its apparent the sound engineering and workmanship which went into the 92 design. I have reached out to Tool Tech for relamping my front sight.. I like the orange ring / tritium insert you have on your gun. With all the updated work, I may just run this one in IDPA at some point in the near future....Keep the updates flowing....

JW, Ernest's work is superb, but with the 92D, take a hard look at your LTT/Wilson Combat options. Arguably, all you need for a 92D is the WC triggerbar (it'll be a drop-in with the D), and the mainsprings to your liking-I'd suggest the 14# and 13#, at least to start with. With a D, you don't need the sear, sear spring, and the Elite II hammer (unless you want it). I'd give Ernest and Aimee a call, and see if he'll spec a D version TJIB for you.

Other stuff you might want to add would be a set of LTT grips (unless you've already added, or are satisfied with the new grips you already added), and perhaps some of the other components I've discussed in the thread.

Glad your enjoying and finding the updates helpful-feel welcome to ask any questions as they come up.

Best, Jon

[Johnny Walker]

JW, Ernest's work is superb, but with the 92D, take a hard look at your LTT/Wilson Combat options. Arguably, all you need for a 92D is the WC triggerbar (it'll be a drop-in with the D), and the mainsprings to your liking-I'd suggest the 14# and 13#, at least to start with. With a D, you don't need the sear, sear spring, and the Elite II hammer (unless you want it). I'd give Ernest and Aimee a call, and see if he'll spec a D version TJIB for you.

Other stuff you might want to add would be a set of LTT grips (unless you've already added, or are satisfied with the new grips you already added), and perhaps some of the other components I've discussed in the thread.

Glad your enjoying and finding the updates helpful-feel welcome to ask any questions as they come up.

Best, Jon

Thanks for the reply... truthfully, I was not interested in changing hammers at all. Figured the 14# mainspring and the stock hammer ought to get the job done. I love the slick slide of the 92D and the lack of hammer tail just further amplifies that fact. I once again have started CCWing this 92D since all the update work... before doing so I went out and shot 250 rounds thru it to make sure the work I did over the weekend was good to go... I did install the LTT thin grips and man they are the bomb. I have smaller hands so they did wonders for trigger reach and trigger pull geometry. I will ping you with questions if / when they arise. My plans now... after I do the modified TJIB I will jump into the slide and work there - firing pin, springs, extractor, etc. Thanks for posting this thread and for your reply. This is what makes PF "THE FORUM" to be a part of.

[JonInWA]

Even though the reassembled 92D passed the "pencil test" (pencil inserted down barrel, eraser end first, pistol turned up vertically, trigger pulled, and seeing the pencil jump as proof of firing pin energy) with flying colors, I went to the range this morning and put 50 rounds downrange just to make sure all was truly good to go-particularly before used for duty/carry/defense. All good. And more accumulated tangible proof as to just how accurate and shootable the 92 is.

Best, Jon

[CraigS]

I don't think DIVA posts here so go to the beretta froum and search for her. She is very enthusiastic about 92Ds and has at least a pair. She asked Ernest to do a TJIB for her and she is running an 11# hammer spring I believe. I can only get down to a 12# in my DA/SA B92s. The advantage the D has is the one piece firing pin vs two piece in FS or G. I believe that is what allows a further 1# reduction on the spring. From my recent experience w/ the NP3 version of the TJIB, I'd recommend asking Ernest to make up an NP3 kit for your D. I can pretty much assure that you will be amazed.

[spinmove_]

I don't think DIVA posts here so go to the beretta froum and search for her. She is very enthusiastic about 92Ds and has at least a pair. She asked Ernest to do a TJIB for her and she is running an 11# hammer spring I believe. I can only get down to a 12# in my DA/SA B92s. The advantage the D has is the one piece firing pin vs two piece in FS or G. I believe that is what allows a further 1# reduction on the spring. From my recent experience w/ the NP3 version of the TJIB, I'd recommend asking Ernest to make up an NP3 kit for your D. I can pretty much assure that you will be amazed.

That legitimately sounds amazing and makes me want to get into trouble with the wife by buying a used 92D Centurion that’s sitting at a gun shop I know...


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[Bigghoss]

Just when I was thinking about selling my 92D's...

[spinmove_]

Just when I was thinking about selling my 92D's...

Based on my experience, Glocks and Beretta 92s are the two pistols that you probably shouldn’t ever sell because sooner or later you’re just going to come back to them.


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[Bigghoss]

Based on my experience, Glocks and Beretta 92s are the two pistols that you probably shouldn’t ever sell because sooner or later you’re just going to come back to them.


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Well I have plenty of 92's but most are DA/SA. I'm going to keep at least a few. Being so used to the DA/SA trigger the D trigger was a little weird. The two that I have probably aren't worth $700 combined so it's not a huge deal if I just keep them for the heck of it. If I were married you guys would get me in a lot of trouble. Not that I don't do my fair share of entrapment around here.

[JonInWA]

Based on my experience, Glocks and Beretta 92s are the two pistols that you probably shouldn’t ever sell because sooner or later you’re just going to come back to them.


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Especially if a D model, which while not exactly rare, are a finite and diminishing pool as we speak.

Perusing Beretta's website, it also looks like they've eliminated (or hidden) C and D variants of the PX4. I've heard very, very little reporting regarding their performance since the overall PX4 introduction, leading me to suspect that they're a microscopic portion of PX4 total sales...

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I don't think DIVA posts here so go to the beretta froum and search for her. She is very enthusiastic about 92Ds and has at least a pair. She asked Ernest to do a TJIB for her and she is running an 11# hammer spring I believe. I can only get down to a 12# in my DA/SA B92s. The advantage the D has is the one piece firing pin vs two piece in FS or G. I believe that is what allows a further 1# reduction on the spring. From my recent experience w/ the NP3 version of the TJIB, I'd recommend asking Ernest to make up an NP3 kit for your D. I can pretty much assure that you will be amazed.

I'm familiar with Diva's excellent contributions on the berettaforum.net, and I've invited her to come and sample the water here; I also gave her a link to this thread.

Best, Jon

[Jeep]

That legitimately sounds amazing and makes me want to get into trouble with the wife by buying a used 92D Centurion that’s sitting at a gun shop I know...


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I have a 92D Centurion, and I installed an 11# spring. 2000 rounds later only one double strike needed and that on a notoriously hard primer. The trigger itself is very much like an excellent revolver double-action pull, though probably a bit shorter.

I like a lot of pistols but this is very accurate, simple and reliable. If I thought microsecond split times mattered much, I'd say go with a very light DA/SA instead. But other than slightly slower split time this is a terrific pistol that is a joy to shoot.

[Bergeron]

I could not be more appreciative of the info this forum provides.

After spending a week reading every Beretta thread I could find, I have a 92D Centurion heading my way. I figure I’ll have Wilson work their magic and end up with a nice gun.

Making sure I understand everything, the new Wilson trigger bar and hammer will work in concert to release the hammer further back into its arc, allowing the use of a lighter mainspring without loss of impact energy against the primer? I was thinking about the 14# spring, but maybe the 13# won’t really risk light strikes if I’m rocking the new parts?

I’m excited to finally have a Beretta, and really impressed by everything Mr. Langdon and Wilson Combat have done for the gun. It seems like the best thing that can happen for any small arms design to have enough success to warrant serious engineering evolution.

[LadyLuck]

Bergeron, you will love the 9D Centurion. What a perfect choice for your first Beretta! Here's mine. It's flawless with an 11# spring and other upgrades.


I'm familiar with Diva's excellent contributions on the berettaforum.net, and I've invited her to come and sample the water here; I also gave her a link to this thread.

Thanks, Jon, for the warm welcome!

Diva (from The Beretta Forum)🙂

[Bigghoss]

I put 14# springs in both of my 92D's but I can't remember if that was before or after my last range trip with them. As I understand it you can go down to a 14# hammer spring and not do anything else and the gun should still work. My 92A1 has a 12# and I put a few rounds through it and they all went off but Ernest Langdon says it's not a good idea to run only a 12# spring with no other mods. Luckily the hammer springs aren't expensive so you can grab a 12, 13, and 14 to play with.

The 92D Centurion is my favorite Beretta aesthetically. The short slick slide and flush barrel with the spurless hammer look so cool to me. When I saw one on GB for I think it was $400, I had to jump on it. I also have a normal 92D that I got for $250 because the finish was really rough but mechanically it's fine. There's a spot where someone's middle finger wore all the finish away, so that's cool.

[JonInWA]

Bergeron, you will love the 9D Centurion. What a perfect choice for your first Beretta! Here's mine. It's flawless with an 11# spring and other upgrades.



Thanks, Jon, for the warm welcome!

Diva (from The Beretta Forum)🙂

You're welcome, it's great to have you on board. One question on your set-up: How are you liking the short trigger? When I queried WC about it, they actually recommended against it on the D model; the tech that I spoke with felt the action leveraging was excellent with the regular trigger, and conversely was a bit compromised with the short-reach variant. What are your thoughts about it after running it on yours?

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I could not be more appreciative of the info this forum provides.

After spending a week reading every Beretta thread I could find, I have a 92D Centurion heading my way. I figure I’ll have Wilson work their magic and end up with a nice gun.

Making sure I understand everything, the new Wilson trigger bar and hammer will work in concert to release the hammer further back into its arc, allowing the use of a lighter mainspring without loss of impact energy against the primer? I was thinking about the 14# spring, but maybe the 13# won’t really risk light strikes if I’m rocking the new parts?

I’m excited to finally have a Beretta, and really impressed by everything Mr. Langdon and Wilson Combat have done for the gun. It seems like the best thing that can happen for any small arms design to have enough success to warrant serious engineering evolution.

Bergeron, with the WC triggerbar, you'll be fine with either a #14 or #13 mainspring. I initially went with the #14, but switched to the #13 with no issues whatsoever, and I'm normally running Sellier & Bellot 115 gr 9mm in mine, which are noted for having harder primers.

I'd suggest trying both, and go with the feel that you prefer (assuming reliability with them, of course, with the cartridges that you use).

Best, Jon

[Bergeron]

The S&B is a great data point.

Thanks, Jon!

[BN]

You guys. I just bid on a 92D on Gunbroker. :cool:

This forum is expensive. :)

[Bigghoss]

You guys. I just bid on a 92D on Gunbroker. :cool:

This forum is expensive. :)

You're welcome.

[LadyLuck]

You guys. I just bid on a 92D on Gunbroker. :cool:

This forum is expensive. :)

Best of luck! And, don't forget the NP3 TJIAB recommended by Craig, too! We'll help you spend your money..:cool:

[LadyLuck]

You're welcome, it's great to have you on board. One question on your set-up: How are you liking the short trigger? When I queried WC about it, they actually recommended against it on the D model; the tech that I spoke with felt the action leveraging was excellent with the regular trigger, and conversely was a bit compromised with the short-reach variant. What are your thoughts about it after running it on yours?

Best, Jon

For my smaller hands than most guys, I found the full size 92D with stock grips to be a ....well...handful. Until I did some discussing about why my shots were going straight left, I didn't get the relationship. I'm a Beretta 92 newbie, btw. So, I started this thread looking for help and we all figured it out.

https://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=137069&page=2

They main thing I took away from the thread is that "reaching for the trigger" was the problem and the fix was easy. Thin, or better, Ultra Thin grips and a Short Reach Trigger combined and practice allowed me to get my trigger finger in the correct position on the trigger to cure my inaccuracy. Now all three of my 92D's have this combination and I have no more left leaning issues with shot placement.:cool: Every little bit helps!

What did the WC tech mean about the leverage being compromised and how would it adversely affect shooting the gun? My 3 92D's also have WC Trigger Bars so I'm not sure if that plays into it. Was the tech assuming an OEM stock or WC bar in his assessment?

[JonInWA]

At the time that I spoke with the WC tech, I don't believe that the WC triggerbar was available. To the best of my recollection, basically he recommended against the Short Reach Trigger in the D model because of the ergos involved with the user and the repetitive DA stroke with the SR trigger compared to the standard OEM one. That's probably not a great explanation (more on my part-we had the conversation a few years ago and I never really pursued a more in-depth discussion), and it sounds like you're perfectly satisfied with your Short Reach Triggers with you D models, which pretty much answers my question.

Also, from an ergonomic standpoint, due to my medium-size hands/fingers I didn't need a decrease in triggerpull distance with my 92D, I simply desired a slimmer feel with the receiver. In my experience, the Trausch, and then my subsequent (and current) LTT grips accomplish that magnificently, essentially giving a double-stack 92 a single-stack feel, and making the handling characteristics much more dynamic.

What are your thoughts in comparing a D with a Short Reach Trigger and one with the OEM standard trigger?

Best, Jon

[LadyLuck]

I believe the SRT coupled with ultra thin grips enables me to get my finger where it belongs on the trigger, while not messing up my grip, for shot placement accuracy. I only shot maybe 500 rounds with the OEM triggers before I changed them all out. It could just be all in my head but I truly believe this combination is something one should try with any 92 if smaller hands are in play and accuracy is off to the left. I'm also not sure what else the SRT is supposed to fix or why else one would need it. YMMV!

[Jeep]

I believe the SRT coupled with ultra thin grips enables me to get my finger where it belongs on the trigger, while not messing up my grip, for shot placement accuracy. I only shot maybe 500 rounds with the OEM triggers before I changed them all out. It could just be all in my head but I truly believe this combination is something one should try with any 92 if smaller hands are in play and accuracy is off to the left. I'm also not sure what else the SRT is supposed to fix or why else one would need it. YMMV!

What I think this shows is that one size doesn't fit all in guns (or pretty much anything else). The short reach trigger might be bad for most people with a D model--but not everyone. I have somewhat smaller hands and I find the SRT a bit annoying--but nevertheless useful with full size grips.

[Johnny Walker]

JW, Ernest's work is superb, but with the 92D, take a hard look at your LTT/Wilson Combat options. Arguably, all you need for a 92D is the WC triggerbar (it'll be a drop-in with the D), and the mainsprings to your liking-I'd suggest the 14# and 13#, at least to start with. With a D, you don't need the sear, sear spring, and the Elite II hammer (unless you want it). I'd give Ernest and Aimee a call, and see if he'll spec a D version TJIB for you.

Other stuff you might want to add would be a set of LTT grips (unless you've already added, or are satisfied with the new grips you already added), and perhaps some of the other components I've discussed in the thread.

Glad your enjoying and finding the updates helpful-feel welcome to ask any questions as they come up.

Best, Jon

Jon

Installed Wilson trigger bar, new Wilson silicon return spring and 14# Hammer spring... HOLY COW.. gotta hit the range and test this out. Smooth and easy compared to vintage '02 parts... I think I MIGHT try the Wilson SRT but not certain I need to..... test fire first.

[JonInWA]

Jon

Installed Wilson trigger bar, new Wilson silicon return spring and 14# Hammer spring... HOLY COW.. gotta hit the range and test this out. Smooth and easy compared to vintage '02 parts... I think I MIGHT try the Wilson SRT but not certain I need to..... test fire first.

Hit the range and let us know. If you can adequately reach and manipulate the trigger with the OEM trigger, with good accuracy and speed, I'd leave well enough alone.

Conversely, Lady Luck has obviously done well with her SRT, but she has a specific and defined ergonomic need, which was quantifiably measured (i.e., shooting to the left before installation, shooting POA/POI after-to me, that's a demonstratively effective hardware improvement ). I strongly suspect that most of us are better served with the OEM trigger, but hey, it's an inexpensive part (well, unless you gold-plate it like Lady Luck did...) and a pretty easy install. Getting one "for science" and objectively comparing may not be a bad thing-but there's probably other things I'd spend money on first-like ammunition, practice, instruction, competition.

I suspect some of us (myself included) have a tendency to seek immediate hardware solutions, where perhaps a smarter approach might be to invest in spending significant time with a given platform to be able to more coherently address upgrades and improvements based on actual empirical experience.

Best, Jon

[LadyLuck]

You guys. I just bid on a 92D on Gunbroker. :cool:

This forum is expensive. :)

Didja get it?!

[LadyLuck]

Just in case you wanted to see some 92D bling in silver and gold! Both of these pistols now have different grips (thin) which are not shown. The silver one sports a Ciener .22 threaded Conversion kit and a switchable threaded 9mm upper. The 9mm barrel has since been refinished in silvertone CPII. The gold one has an accurized conical bushing by WAL. Both have LTT TJIABs, SRTs and an 11# spring.

[Johnny Walker]

Just in case you wanted to see some 92D bling in silver and gold! Both of these pistols now have different grips (thin) which are not shown. The silver one sports a Ciener .22 threaded Conversion kit and a switchable threaded 9mm upper. The 9mm barrel has since been refinished in silvertone CPII. The gold one has an accurized conical bushing by WAL. Both have LTT TJIABs, SRTs and an 11# spring.

11# spring... whoa Nelly... any issues? I did the trigger bar, trigger return spring, grips and sight mods on my 92D and went with 14# hammer spring... I may get "wild" and drop to a 13# but since I CCW the gun want 100% fail safe reliability was thinking the 13# or 14# would give me some leeway and peace of mind......

Nice looking pizza blasters~!

[BN]

Didja get it?!

I'll know in 2 days, 14 hours. :) I'm winning so far.

[LadyLuck]

11# spring... whoa Nelly... any issues? I did the trigger bar, trigger return spring, grips and sight mods on my 92D and went with 14# hammer spring... I may get "wild" and drop to a 13# but since I CCW the gun want 100% fail safe reliability was thinking the 13# or 14# would give me some leeway and peace of mind......

Nice looking pizza blasters~!

Do you have a slick slide or one of the rare 92D slides with a safety lever? If you have the slick slide, it has a one piece firing pin. It is much more forgiving paired with a lighter hammer spring in terms of giving effective oomph to the hammer hitting the firing pin. I have had no failures to ignite across all 3 slick slide 92D's after approx 2000 rounds. The trigger pull weight of all three is about 6.5lbs.

I carry the Centurion, nightstand the accurized Goldie full-size and range play time the Silver. I'm awaiting a 9mm suppressor for the silver one. I am totally confident that the Centurion and Goldie will stay 100% reliable. I don't want to depend on 2nd strike capability but there is that if I ever get one. I continue to shoot them all at the range just waiting for that first failure to ignite but it hasn't happened yet. YMMV!

(The Ciener .22 Conversion kit does not have the same results. I'm still analyzing that one because it gets light strikes no matter what spring is in it. I'm leaning toward firing pin out of spec but I need more range time with the 92D in that configuration to troubleshoot it.)

Did you say pizza?!

[Johnny Walker]

Do you have a slick slide or one of the rare 92D slides with a safety lever? If you have the slick slide, it has a one piece firing pin. It is much more forgiving paired with a lighter hammer spring in terms of giving effective oomph to the hammer hitting the firing pin. I have had no failures to ignite across all 3 slick slide 92D's after approx 2000 rounds. The trigger pull weight of all three is about 6.5lbs.

I carry the Centurion, nightstand the accurized Goldie full-size and range play time the Silver. I'm awaiting a 9mm suppressor for the silver one. I am totally confident that the Centurion and Goldie will stay 100% reliable. I don't want to depend on 2nd strike capability but there is that if I ever get one. I continue to shoot them all at the range just waiting for that first failure to ignite but it hasn't happened yet. YMMV!

(The Ciener .22 Conversion kit does not have the same results. I'm still analyzing that one because it gets light strikes no matter what spring is in it. I'm leaning toward firing pin out of spec but I need more range time with the 92D in that configuration to troubleshoot it.)

Did you say pizza?!

HA HA HA HA Anytime is Pizza time! My 92D be a slick slide... understand about the one piece firing pin... good to know I can go lower than 13#.... just "seems" like that is dangerous low... that IS NOT grounded in anything scientific. The 14# spring rocks and after I pump 500 rounds thru the gun over the next week if I get no failures I will most likely swap in the 13# spring and give that a whirl. I have another 92D ( also full size ) inbound and will do the work on it next. My two FS models ( one full and one Centurion ) have the TJIAB and run 14# springs and Wilson Hammer and have had 0 issues thus far..... All that being said I am glad to be a part of this 92D expedition!

[LadyLuck]

The reason I go with a light spring is because of the trigger pull weight. I like DAO but a heavier revolver like trigger is too strong for me. The 11# gives me a weight I can handle. Similar to my striker XD9SC. If the pull weight of your 14# is acceptable then no need to go lower! But, if you do and it's reliable there will be no going back - the 11# is that sweet!

[Johnny Walker]

The reason I go with a light spring is because of the trigger pull weight. I like DAO but a heavier revolver like trigger is too strong for me. The 11# gives me a weight I can handle. Similar to my striker XD9SC. If the pull weight of your 14# is acceptable then no need to go lower! But, if you do and it's reliable there will be no going back - the 11# is that sweet!

Thanks for the tips. I can imagine how sweet it must be....14# seems crazy good......

Carpe Diem... Carpe Vitae !

[JonInWA]

For defensive or duty use, I believe Ernest generally recommends 14# or no lower than 13#. I'd stick with the 14# for awhile, and then maybe experiment with the 13#. Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And, regardless of which spring weight you choose, if it's beneath 16# make sure you run some of your duty/carry ammunition through it. Actually, whenever you do any mods/component changes, it's a good idea to do this.

A good hard-primered brand to test with is Sellier & Bellot-it's consistently quality ammunition and accurate, but harder-primered. For softer-primered cartridges, Federal/American Eagle/Champion is good stuff.

These days, I normally run either Sellier & Bellot 115 gr, American Eagle 115 gr, or Federal Champion 115 gr, but I may take a walk on the wild side (not) and experiment with 124 gr. My 92D runs fine with any and all of these choices, with Wilson Combat chrome silicon 13# mainspring, a 14# Wilson Combat chrome silicon recoil spring, and a standard strength Wilson Combat chrome silicon extractor spring.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And for duty/self defense, Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P or Hornady Critical Duty 135gr FlexLock are my primary choices, but anything vetted/recommended by DocGKR is good to go.

See https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo He periodically updates it.

Best, Jon

[Bergeron]

I got my 92D Centurion from my FFL today. I’m enjoying it, although I’m eager to get Wilson Ultra-Thin VZs to replace the finger-groove (ugh) Houge grip on there now and to start rocking a TJIAB.

I still want to shoot it plain-Jane stock for a little bit first, so I can appreciate spoiling myself.

The trigger return was not as strong as I thought it might have been. I’m not complaining, but I was a bit surprised.

[Bigghoss]

I got my 92D Centurion from my FFL today. I’m enjoying it, although I’m eager to get Wilson Ultra-Thin VZs to replace the finger-groove (ugh) Houge grip on there now and to start rocking a TJIAB.

I still want to shoot it plain-Jane stock for a little bit first, so I can appreciate spoiling myself.

The trigger return was not as strong as I thought it might have been. I’m not complaining, but I was a bit surprised.

You got Houge finger grooves on yours too? My 92D Centurion came with those too. For as many people that complain about the grip size of 92's in general you'd think those grips would be a lot less common.

[Bergeron]

Bulky and soft, es no bueno for me in a pistol grip. I have a large palm and long fingers so it’s still shootable, but the added frontstrap thickness is considerable and the soft material makes it easier for the gun squirm with a strong grip and aggresive trigger finger.

[Jeep]

And for duty/self defense, Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P or Hornady Critical Duty 135gr FlexLock are my primary choices, but anything vetted/recommended by DocGKR is good to go.

See https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo He periodically updates it.

Best, Jon

I should note that I put an 11# spring in a 92D Centurion on a "why not try it?" whim. I now have 2000 rounds (approximately) through it and have had only one hard primer not bust on the first pull. It has been 100% with carry ammo. Importantly, though, I put in a Wilson trigger bar. Without that I wouldn't consider anything less than 14# mainspring.

[JonInWA]

I should note that I put an 11# spring in a 92D Centurion on a "why not try it?" whim. I now have 2000 rounds (approximately) through it and have had only one hard primer not bust on the first pull. It has been 100% with carry ammo. Importantly, though, I put in a Wilson trigger bar. Without that I wouldn't consider anything less than 14# mainspring.

I absolutely agree; only with a Wilson Combat combat triggerbar would I go any lower than 14#. The Langdon-designed WC triggerbar allows for greater hammer arc, imparting more energy on the firing pin, thus concurrently allowing for a lighter mainspring. It's also thorough-hardened, so it'll have increased durability/less wear on areas of reciprocation and metal-on-metal movement. The current ones are pretty much drop-in components, too (on a D model they always were, due to the Ds lack of a sear and single-action).

As reference points, the OEM mainspring weight on a 92 is 20#, as DoD wanted enough energy to sufficiently detonate pretty much any known 9mm primer and/or grunged-up cartridges. The OEM D spring provided by/approved by Beretta is 16#.

Best, Jon

[Bigghoss]

I'm going to have to order a couple trigger bars and even lighter springs for my 92D's.

[JonInWA]

I'm going to have to order a couple trigger bars and even lighter springs for my 92D's.

We're quite the enablers, aren't we?

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I got my 92D Centurion from my FFL today. I’m enjoying it, although I’m eager to get Wilson Ultra-Thin VZs to replace the finger-groove (ugh) Houge grip on there now and to start rocking a TJIAB.

I still want to shoot it plain-Jane stock for a little bit first, so I can appreciate spoiling myself.

The trigger return was not as strong as I thought it might have been. I’m not complaining, but I was a bit surprised.

I recommend immediate replacement of the trigger return spring, triggerbar spring, magazine springs, recoil spring, and take a hard look at the locking block-replacing it with the current Gen 3 locking block might not be a bad idea, but fit/have fitted as necessary for even wear on the locking block wings.

Best, Jon

[BN]

Didja get it?!

Nope. Somebody outbid me at the last minute. They do have more listed though. ;)

[Bigghoss]

How does one go about fitting a locking block?

[Bucky]

How does one go about fitting a locking block?

Inquiring minds want to know. I always thought this was a drop in part.

[Jeep]

How does one go about fitting a locking block?

Drop it in and let it wear in--it is not really a precision part. Occasionally you might (supposedly) find a problem and then need to take a small file to any part of the block that seems to be causing too much wear to the frame, but I doubt you will much of thatever see that. That is why you can drop in other 92 barrels with their own locking blocks.

[awp_101]

How does one go about fitting a locking block?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3800/842/1600/3a_1.jpg

[Jeep]

I absolutely agree; only with a Wilson Combat combat triggerbar would I go any lower than 14#. The Langdon-designed WC triggerbar allows for greater hammer arc, imparting more energy on the firing pin, thus concurrently allowing for a lighter mainspring. It's also thorough-hardened, so it'll have increased durability/less wear on areas of reciprocation and metal-on-metal movement. The current ones are pretty much drop-in components, too (on a D model they always were, due to the Ds lack of a sear and single-action).

As reference points, the OEM mainspring weight on a 92 is 20#, as DoD wanted enough energy to sufficiently detonate pretty much any known 9mm primer and/or grunged-up cartridges. The OEM D spring provided by/approved by Beretta is 16#.

Best, Jon

My view is that it was a mistake by the Army to spec a 20# spring. The worst that will happen if you don't bust a (working) primer with the first trigger pull is that it will fire the second time. The worst that will happen with too heavy a mainspring is that many of your users--who receive little training in the first place--will grow to hate and fear the DA pull and throw the first shot anyway. Military gear needs to be robust, but they should have gone with a 16# spring in the first place. Shooting would have much improved.

I have converted a number of range officers where I shoot to the 92 platform simply by showing them what a D spring alone can do to the 92's trigger pull (and when they buy a Beretta I give them a D spring and show them how to install it). Most of the RO's are former service guys and "know" that the M9/92 is a pretty useless gun. They are amazed by what the D spring does.

[JonInWA]

How does one go about fitting a locking block?

See post #81 on page 9: Reproduced here so you guys don't have to search for it (hey, I do it for you!)

Quick update: After approximately 12K rounds, I decided to replace my 1996-vintage OEM Gen 2 locking block with the current one, a Gen 3 https://berettaforum.net/vb/showpost...3&postcount=18 (While my 92D was manufactured in 1996, I didn't actually buy it, BNIB until 2006, which was its actual commencement of use date).

And a lengthier discussion of Beretta locking blocks is here: https://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=45325

While mine with its OEM Gen 2 was running just fine, I decided it would be prudent simply to replace it, as "normal" locking block anomalies have been seen to crop up as early as the 12K point. (Outlier issues, while unusual, can crop up both earlier and later, and "normal" forecasted locking block longevity is around the 15K to 20K roundcount from what I've read and researched on these earlier locking blocks, and at the 20K to 30K interval for the later current Gen 3 locking blocks. So replacing mine at its roundcount was arguably overkill, but I'm considering it inexpensive preventive maintenance.

Erik Stern at BUSA (and a p-f member and participant) and I recently had an excellent discussion on it; he suggested that the replacement block normally doesn't need to be fitted, but to watch for any eccentric wear in the slide from the previous block buy looking for an even fit with no light bars showing when the new one is installed. Mine seems to fit nicely with no additional fitting needed. If fitting is needed, it's essential to do it, as the replacement block's longevity can be severely compromised by the eccentric wear/stress it has to deal with.

While a pretty straightforward and simple process, BUSA has an excellent Youtube segment that I strongly recommend watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWO5cBl1FvI

It's easy to follow, with some very succinct tips. For a punch, since the retaining pin is a roll pin, I used a roll pin punch, which speeds up and stabilizes the process (both on pin removal and installation), and eliminates damage to the old roll pin (which of course I immediately lost on my garage workshop floor when attempting to bag it for potential re-use...).

Beretta has 2 locking block kits, one with a replacement recoil spring and the other without it. Since I'm running a Wilson Combat 14# silicon chrome recoil spring, I opted for the kit without, which includes the locking block, plunger pin, and retaining roll pin.

I wiped down the new block and plunger pin with Weapon Shield prior to installation, and also placed some Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2 grease in the portion of the barrel lug that the nose of the locking block fits and moves.

It's really just a 5 minute job at most.

Best, Jon

[Bergeron]

I recommend immediate replacement of the trigger return spring, triggerbar spring, magazine springs, recoil spring, and take a hard look at the locking block-replacing it with the current Gen 3 locking block might not be a bad idea, but fit/have fitted as necessary for even wear on the locking block wings.

Best, Jon

Jon, you’ve been a great resource on Beretta, particularly the D guns, thank you!

I know you’ve had experiences with both- would you recommend/prefer the TCU or the CS trigger return spring? This gun is going to see a ton of dry fire.

I do intend to get a locking block and overall chrome silicon spring replacement/refresh. My hope is to send the gun to Wilson, because I’d also like the mag guide, magwell, mag release, and to have the serrations turned into checkering.

I have a question about the Wilson dehorning:

I’ve noticed hot spots on my hand from the beavertail and at the base of the triggerguard. Does the Wilson de-horning address these areas, and if not, can I get them to perform it as additional work?

[JonInWA]

Jon, you’ve been a great resource on Beretta, particularly the D guns, thank you!

I know you’ve had experiences with both- would you recommend/prefer the TCU or the CS trigger return spring? This gun is going to see a ton of dry fire.

I do intend to get a locking block and overall chrome silicon spring replacement/refresh. My hope is to send the gun to Wilson, because I’d also like the mag guide, magwell, mag release, and to have the serrations turned into checkering.

I have a question about the Wilson dehorning:

I’ve noticed hot spots on my hand from the beavertail and at the base of the triggerguard. Does the Wilson de-horning address these areas, and if not, can I get them to perform it as additional work?

Bergeron, apparently I'm one of the relatively few people who successfully and satisfactorily ran the Wolff TCU (also sold by Wilson Combat). Before I got it, I had an in-depth discussion with Wolff, and went with the Reduced Power/Lighter TCU. However, several caveats for current use: Mine was used successfully with the OEM Beretta triggerbar-it did not have sufficient power with the Wilson Combat triggerbar, so I went with the Wilson Combat lever-type chrome silcon spring, which performs very nicely. If I was to go back to the TCU, with the Wilson Combat triggerbar you'll need to go with at least with the Factory/INS or the Extra Power TCU.

My counsel is to go with the Wilson Combat chrome silicon trigger return spring.

The Wilson Combat dehorning I have no experience with. What I'd suggest would be to look carefully at the dehorning on the Langdon LTT 92 Elite with the carry bevel option, and go with that as a beveling guide.
https://www.langdontactical.com/92-elite-ltt/
On my personal 92D, I really haven't experienced any issues that I felt needed beveling, but I can see where it might be worthwhile to do. Talk with Wilson and Langdon first is my advice.

Regarding checkering on the frontstrap, if you're going with a VZ Wilson Combat or Langdon LTT ultra thin grip, I don't think i'ts really necessary, because (in my case) the main grip pressure is transferred from the frontstrap to the sides, and the G10 material, especially with the Langdon LTT checkering is extremely effective. YMMV, given your hand size and interface with the receiver. If you already have one of the ultra thin G10 grips, that'll give you a good reference if you really need the checkering.

Regarding the extended magazine release, I have one of the Wilson Combat round checkered ones. While a pain in the butt to install (I had to have my gunsmith do it), I like it, as it definitely makes the magazine replacement process easier and more ergonomic. If you shoot IDPA or USPSA, I'd counsel getting one of the Beretta extended ones; otherwise you're immediately bounced from Stock Service Pistol to Enhanced Service Pistol division (which is probably why Wilson Combat puts an extended Beretta Beretta release on the Wilson/Beretta collaboration 92s, and I believe Ernest Langdon does the same with his).

With certain holsters, the extended magazine release can be activated by pressure placed on the sides of the holster if it covers the magazine release-check carefully that your holster doesn't do this when using for duty/carry.

I also decided to go with Beretta's solid steel recoil spring guide rod, but any of the Beretta (including the polymer one) or Wilson choices are quite good-it's really just a matter of personal taste in my opinion.

Good luck with the project-definitely keep us posted.

Best, Jon

[Bergeron]

This is a fantastic post, Jon, lots to digest.


Bergeron, apparently I'm one of the relatively few people who successfully and satisfactorily ran the Wolff TCU (also sold by Wilson Combat).

My counsel is to go with the Wilson Combat chrome silicon trigger return spring.

On my personal 92D, I really haven't experienced any issues that I felt needed beveling, but I can see where it might be worthwhile to do. Talk with Wilson and Langdon first is my advice.

Regarding checkering on the frontstrap, if you're going with a VZ Wilson Combat or Langdon LTT ultra thin grip, I don't think i'ts really necessary, because (in my case) the main grip pressure is transferred from the frontstrap to the sides, and the G10 material, especially with the Langdon LTT checkering is extremely effective.

Regarding the extended magazine release, I have one of the Wilson Combat round checkered ones. While a pain in the butt to install (I had to have my gunsmith do it), I like it, as it definitely makes the magazine replacement process easier and more ergonomic.


WC CS trigger return spring it is! I'll ask Wilson once I put in the gunsmithing order. I've seen the pics and listened/read Mr. Langdon's commentary on de-horning. For an example, I get brutal Glock-knuckle on un-modified guns. I'd love his work, but am planning on the Wilson route. I sold a gun that paid for this one, and gunsmithing to a couple of others. I'm selling another gun that'll pay for the work I plan to have happen to this one. Budget neutral gunsmithing FTW, lol. I'm hesitant to reach out until I have the money firmly in hand, to avoid wasting anyone's time.

I'm very happy to hear about the effectiveness of the side panels on the G10. I want the checkering because this will be my first opportunity to own a gun with Wilson checkering, and it's kind of fun that's it's not going to be on a 1911. I like a lot grip texture all over, anyways. I'm defintely missing out on side grip texture on my support hand with the rubber Houges, so it'll be great to get that.

Your comments about the mag release is much appreciated. Except for my 1911s, I use my trigger finger to release the mags. Trying the process out with my left (weak) hand, I get the sense that a large, smooth button would work best for me, I can accept an ESP placement- the only other gun that I have that's IDPA-appropriate is in CDP, but that is a good point you make- maybe I should get the Beretta release and just file off the checkering.

I pulled the locking block out and I didn't notice any uneven wear or cracks, which was nice. I still plan to have a new block along with the new springs. The trigger and guide rod are steel, which I appreciate.

My slow fire is acceptable, and I can keep most of that accuracy with timed fire, in rapid fire I'm inducing some horizontal wiggle into the front sight, which I'm trying to work through in dry fire. I've made a commitment to myself and the gun to not take up more than about a pound of pull on any shot, and to keep a consistent speed on the press- if I start slow I'm finishing slow, and if I start fast, I'm finishing fast. I hope that this discipline will eventually give me rewards on my other guns.

[JonInWA]

Here's the latest holster update regarding my 92D, shamelessly linked from the holster portion of the forum (so everything regarding my 92D journey can be found in one place here on this thread for those of you who are tracking/following):

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31888-Shoulder-Holster-Recommendations

(The entries on the last page, page 11, detail out my eventual shoulder holster choice and decision logic, and why I decided to go with my initial concealment shoulder holster for the 92D as opposed to my HKs)

The specific shoulder holster I chose:

https://www.berettausa.com/en-us/ra-shoulder-holster-s-92-bwn-bwn-lthr/e02226/

Best, Jon

[Johnny Walker]

Here's the latest holster update regarding my 92D, shamelessly linked from the holster portion of the forum (so everything regarding my 92D journey can be found in one place here on this thread for those of you who are tracking/following):

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31888-Shoulder-Holster-Recommendations

(The entries on the last page, page 11, detail out my eventual shoulder holster choice and decision logic, and why I decided to go with my initial concealment shoulder holster for the 92D as opposed to my HKs)

The specific shoulder holster I chose:

https://www.berettausa.com/en-us/ra-shoulder-holster-s-92-bwn-bwn-lthr/e02226/

Best, Jon

Thanks for sharing Jon. I look forward to tracking your progress and updates. BTW, Thanks to you and this thread, I have two 92D's - Both are full size and I have done the modified TJIAB, new rear sights, new grips, Wilson TRS, etc, etc... The D models are not as fast as DA/SA for follow up shots but for all the reasons Yeti and others have mentioned it works for me for CCW and just plain fun. Cheers amigo

[JonInWA]

May update-Yesterday, I competed with the 92D in a 7 stage, 140 round IDPA match. I was also using the match as my first foray with some experimentally finished teflon coated magazine tubes from Check-Mate.

Well, sportsfans, there were highs and lows during the match. As I've known, shooting the 92D support hand only, with its long double-action triggerpull and fairly long slide, is, shall we say, a work in progress for me. There were 2 support-hand only stages in the match, and one of the stages required 3 shots per target-basically, and not too charitably, I performed exceptionally poorly in both. Well, I know what I need to practice...but for duty today, I defaulted to my HK P30L LEM, which is much easier to shoot single-handedly...

The rest of the match went pretty well, including 2 stages that I shot perfectly. The 92D performed magnificently as usual, with no hiccups whatsoever. While in past years I primarily shot 115 gr 9mm, this year I'm using 124 gr, American Eagle, Sellier & Bellot or Independent. I've heard that European guns tend to be more oriented towards 124 gr, and they also provide me with a bit more leeway regarding making the IDPA power floor.

The teflon coated Check-Mate tubes performed impeccably. The teflon is very slick, but I had no problems with magazine acquisition from the pouch or retention (an Olen kydex, designed to carry the magazines upside-down, so I yank down on the magazine to extract it from the pouch-particularly useful when kneeling or proned; also good for summer carry with Hawaiian shirts. I've experimented with this method of spare/reload magazine stowage, and it works pretty well. To facilitate magazine retention during carry, Olen molded a set of baseplate lips into the extended sweatshield, which the baseplate clicks into; I've also used Tactical Tailor's Magna pouches with rare earth magnets embedded into the pouch fabric for retention.

Best, Jon

[Doc_Glock]

I find the P30 to be a pretty forgiving one handed gun.

[JonInWA]

I find the P30 to be a pretty forgiving one handed gun.

You're not helping....(but both the HK P30 and VP are probably among the easiest to fire single-handedly, due to their exceptional ergos and weight).

Seriously, this morning's dryfire practice consisted of 50% support-hand, then two-handed drills with the 92D. For each drill, I first performed with the support hand, and then two-handed.

I am absolutely determined to achieve at least acceptable performance with the 92D in support hand shooting. The combination of the long triggerpull and muzzle-heavy balance I've known for years render support hand (and, to a lesser extent, strong-hand only) firing difficult; for the first time I've decided to systemically develop the skill-set necessary to establish competence, rather than just avoid it and assume that it's a rarely needed skill.

Saturday's match did a great, if humbling, job of pointedly demonstrating a critical skill-set deficit-a sometimes forgotten benefit of getting out there and competitively shooting under stress.

Best, Jon

[Doc_Glock]

You're not helping....(but both the HK P30 and VP are probably among the easiest to fire single-handedly, due to their exceptional ergos and weight).

Seriously, this morning's dryfire practice consisted of 50% support-hand, then two-handed drills with the 92D. For each drill, I first performed with the support hand, and then two-handed.

I am absolutely determined to achieve at least acceptable performance with the 92D in support hand shooting. The combination of the long triggerpull and muzzle-heavy balance I've known for years render support hand (and, to a lesser extent, strong-hand only) firing difficult; for the first time I've decided to systemically develop the skill-set necessary to establish competence, rather than just avoid it and assume that it's a rarely needed skill.

Saturday's match did a great, if humbling, job of pointedly demonstrating a critical skill-set deficit-a sometimes forgotten benefit of getting out there and competitively shooting under stress.

Best, Jon

One other factor to consider is trigger over travel. I find the Beretta 92 to have a little over travel that leads to a 7-8lb slap after the break and some lateral motion one handed when dry firing at least. I see this to a much lesser extent with the P30/VP9 because the HK's have zero perceptible over travel. A trigger shoe of some sort may be helpful for the Beretta?

[JonInWA]

One other factor to consider is trigger over travel. I find the Beretta 92 to have a little over travel that leads to a 7-8lb slap after the break and some lateral motion one handed when dry firing at least. I see this to a much lesser extent with the P30/VP9 because the HK's have zero perceptible over travel. A trigger shoe of some sort may be helpful for the Beretta?

Trigger shoes are the devil's spawn...ask me how I really feel. I think that they're one more thing to loosen/fail at an inconvenient time, and another projection to complicate (if not outright endanger) re-holstering...

I'll have to check on the lateral motion aspect. I can see how the over-travel could affect follow-up shots, but the initial should be unaffected. I'll have to monitor that in in dry- and live-fire practice. The bottom line is that for me it seems to be a combination of the long, rolling triggerpull and the muzzle-heaviness are the most difficult factors. especially if trigger finger position shifting is involved during the triggerpull arc. That's easily adjusted for in two-handed firing, because of an inherently more stable base and a more stable support assisting the subtle adjustment mechanics. In single-handed, and support-hand firing in particular, those helps are non-existent, and any instability or shifting is really accentuated, affecting POA/POI.

My gut feel is that practice and perhaps building up support-hand strength are going to be the key factors in surmounting this hurdle. Any suggestions/drills are welcomed.

Best, Jon

[GyroF-16]

...first foray with some experimentally finished teflon coated magazine tubes from Check-Mate.


Please let us know if these will hit the market. Might be a reasonably-priced alternative to Beretta’s PVD sand-resistant mags.

[OlongJohnson]

... the muzzle-heaviness are the most difficult factors.

You're not talking me out of a Centurion here.

[JonInWA]

You're not talking me out of a Centurion here.

No, I'm not. And I suspect that a D-model Centurion or a Compact would intrinsically be easier to shoot single-handedly, as the balance portion of the component would be significantly addressed.

Nevertheless, my 92D is a great gun, and I'm committed to dedicate the time and technique necessary to achieve mastery (well, at least competence) regarding my single-handed shooting with it.

This week's dry-fire practice has seen me going through each drill weak-handed first, then two-handed, and the strong-handed. On another p-f thread, I came across the suggestion of aggressively positioning/gripping with the thumb and modifying elbow positioning for a more stable platform, and that seems to be working.

Best, Jon

[LadyLuck]

I have 3 92D's - 2 full size, 1 Centurion. All three have Wilson Combat trigger bars with the "overtravel" nub. I, and other 92 series owners with these WC bars, are seeing damage to the softer alloy frames. The overtravel nub pounding on the frame slot is wearing in a depression on the frame. This is evident after only about 500 rounds. We are not sure of the effects of the damage other than as the damage deepens the overtravel function may be lost. This was brought to light by a member of another forum.

It's too early to tell if it's a serious issue or not with these WC bars found in the WC action tune kits and TJIAB's. Do any of your 92D frames have this damage for those of you who have replaced your OEM bar with the WC one that has the overtravel nub?

Here's a picture of my damaged full size 92D frame which had the WC bar for about 5-700 rounds. The OEM bar is now reinstalled. I have not checked my other 2 92D's.

[JonInWA]

LL, have you discussed this with Ernest Langdon or WC? I'm interested to hear their take on this, and if it constitutes a problem, and, if so, what corrective action needs to be taken.

I'll have to look at mine later today or tomorrow.

Best, Jon

[LadyLuck]

Jon, I'm afraid I would not be the best person to talk with the experts about this with my limited mechanical knowledge and experience with the 92 series. Someone with better "credentials" than me would be best able to discuss and understand the totality of this issue.:o

[LangdonTactical]

I have 3 92D's - 2 full size, 1 Centurion. All three have Wilson Combat trigger bars with the "overtravel" nub. I, and other 92 series owners with these WC bars, are seeing damage to the softer alloy frames. The overtravel nub pounding on the frame slot is wearing in a depression on the frame. This is evident after only about 500 rounds. We are not sure of the effects of the damage other than as the damage deepens the overtravel function may be lost. This was brought to light by a member of another forum.

It's too early to tell if it's a serious issue or not with these WC bars found in the WC action tune kits and TJIAB's. Do any of your 92D frames have this damage for those of you who have replaced your OEM bar with the WC one that has the overtravel nub?

Here's a picture of my damaged full size 92D frame which had the WC bar for about 5-700 rounds. The OEM bar is now reinstalled. I have not checked my other 2 92D's.

What exactly is the concern here?

Yes, the trigger bar wears on the frame where the over trave stop lands. It is steel, the frame is aluminum. There is going to be some wear there, there is also wear on the frame in other places as well. I have guns, and customers have guns with tens of thousands of rounds through them with this trigger bar. Yes, there is wear there, as there is wear in other places on the frame of the gun. There is going to be wear anywhere you put an overtravel stop as it has to contact the frame of the gun somewhere.

Here is a picture of my main 92 that I am shooting right now. It has about 15,000 rounds through it, and I am not concerned.

Is it causing you some kind of issues with the gun?



38436

[LadyLuck]

I think the concern is that the deep enough dent will negate the benefits of the overtravel nub and eventually be no different functionally than an OEM bar from just the overtravel perspective. Cosmetics aren't the real concern. The posters on the Beretta forum have better explained the concern than I can here as I said I really don't have experience enough. The conversation starts near the end of this thread with post #179:

https://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=134306

(I personally have no issues with my TJIAB/ActionTune guns as I am not sensitive to overtravel and cannot feel the difference between the overtravel of either configuration.)

[JonInWA]

Ernest, thank you for taking the time to respond both here and on the berettaforum.net regarding this. I have experienced no issues with my 92D with the triggerbar, and I'm reassured by your explanation and accumulated experience on your personal 92 with it, and the lack of issues with other client's 92s with it.

The triggerbar has been an important factor in refining the performance of my 92D, as well as correcting the trigger hitch induced by cumulative wear in the OEM triggerbar's rear pad when use broke through the OEM's surface hardening. Your answer has answered and assuaged my concerns; I'll continue with mine without concerns.

LadyLuck, thanks for bringing this to our attention; it needed to be addressed and I'm glad that Ernest was able to do so. Your image helped to define the question, as did the other images and discussion on berettaforum.net. It's a great illustration as to how the internet can be used to expeditiously both identify and resolve a perceived issue.

Best, Jon

[Poconnor]

My quick take on the support hand issues- get stronger. Dry fire. A lot. As far as the frame wear with the overstop? Guns wear out. If you shoot them a lot they wear out faster. I recently traded my VP9s for a berreta PX4 compact. I’m not saying the berettas are better, just different and they fit my carry needs better today. I have arthritis and nerve damage so I want a TDA and I am jumping on the beretta train

[LangdonTactical]

There are a couple of issues at play here.

One, the Wilson trigger bar is made from machined steel. It is much harder and therefore way more durable than the factory trigger bar, which is cast. I have had to throw away hundreds of them over the years. This is why the Wilson trigger bar provides a better double action trigger pull for much longer than the factory trigger bar.

Two, the wear that happens on the factory trigger bar tends to make the hammer start to drop early in the DA pull, therefore reducing hammer arc and firing pin energy. The Wilson bar lasts longer and also tends to make the hammer arc just slightly longer in DA. I don't know where anyone said it would put the hammer farther back in single action. As far as I can tell that is just not possible, likely a misunderstanding.

The amount of wear on the frame it would take to make the reduction in over travel improvement go away far exceeds what would ever happen. You're talking about a dent that is 4 hundredths of an inch. That would be a huge dent in the frame. I have guns with over 30K thought them and the dent is no worse than the guns with 10K through them. The high round could guns still enjoy a reduction in overtravel and therefore reset distance to this day.

Even if you take the reduction in over travel out of the equation, it is a much-improved part over the factory trigger bar.

This is my opinion, based on working on these guns, working for Beretta, and doing thousands of trigger jobs on these guns over the last 25 years. Take it or leave it, totally up to you.

[CraigS]

After the thread on beretta forum brought that wear spot up I looked at mine. Yep it's there too. But after I realized that the TJIBs reduce over travel, I also took the more traditional approach doing an 'adjustable' version of the old speed bump trigger to fine tune over travel.
https://live.staticflickr.com/1842/43582259794_8b84c841d3_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29pdtsj)20180826_130525 (https://flic.kr/p/29pdtsj) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
This is the thickest version which only works in one gun. The other 3 have a layer of UHMW tape. One other data point re; my old EII. When I installed a TJIB in it, it wouldn't fire. Turns out the speed bump trigger I had forgotten was in there (12-14 yrs ago) wouldn't let the trigger travel enough. My point is that this is a very fine line here. The concern that the frame dent could cause problems I think is nothing to worry about. Worst case that dent will stop growing when the trigger begins hitting the frame. In any case I have 4 B92s w/ TJIBs and the trigger bar is staying in them.

[JonInWA]

Minor upgrade: My LTT G10 grips have had Challis O-rings installed as a buffer between the screws and G10 grips, to both anchor the grip screws and prevent unscrewing caused by vibrations from firing and recoil. They generally had worked well (the Challis O-rings are thing, so I stacked two per grip screw), but o the highpowercollectors.proboards.com forum, Moderator and extremely experienced shooter Bob Reed recommended using electronic industry Red Insulating Fiber Washers.

As I'd previously been only moderately pleased with the rubber O-rings that I'd tried (the Challis ones were too thin for the High Power grip screw/grip screw aperture interface, and just got mangled on installation, and the big box store #60 O-Rings worked, but were a bit too thick, inducing a bit too much stand-off distance and allowing for minor grip movement) on the High Power; as far as I could tell the Challis ones were working fine on the 92D, where I'd stacked them 2 per grip screw-after use, only minor re-tightening was needed occasionally.

I decided to remove the LTT G10 grips on my 92D and check; the Challis rubber was showing some beginning sighs of deformation and deterioration. I replaced them all with one Red Insulating fiber washer per screw; washer dimensions are 3mm inner diameter X 6mm outer diameter X .5mm thick. I scored what's probably a lifetime supply at Amazon for under $5 (and with free shipping as well; woo hoo!); https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014XJ32C6/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

Since the LTT grips have adequate stand-off distances incorporated in the screw boss area, only one washer was needed per screw, with the screw not protruding too far through the back of the grip plates to scrape and mar magazines during loading and ejection.

If there's any undue unscrewing in use with them, I'll likely go back to the Challis O rings; I'll keep my results posted after use.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I competed on back-to-back weekend IDPA matches with the 92D. Nothing particularly eventful to relate, except that I apparently still suck at weak-hand shooting with the 92D despite incorporation of weak-hand/strong hand practice into my daily dry-fire practice routine.

Well, maybe I suck a little less-my points down were almost half of what they were in the previous match with strong/weak hand only stages. Oh, wait-the previous match had 2 such stages, this match only one....so I guess I still am a work in progress.

I'm very pleased with American Eagle 124 grain ball for practice and match use. Accurate, reliable, and reasonably clean. The same weight as my primary carry load, Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P. I don't anticipate any power floor issues with it, either.

There's no doubt in my mind that the skills inherent to shooting the 92D DAO have a very positive carry-over to my other actions; during a lull in Saturday's match, I ran 50 rounds through my .40 High Power to operationally test/familiarize with a new recoil spring and a buffer. I was easily able to repetitively achieve down zero shots , both center of mass and to the IDPA head box. That fact that the High Power has a relatively long reset (i.e. the trigger needing to go all the way forward) similar to the 92D probably helped also.

There's a rhythmic consistency to the DAO in the 92D, intrinsically and significantly aided and abetted by the Wilson Combat action component upgrades, and the thin LTT grips definitely help you take full advantage of the action's goodness.

I'm ambivalent about the Check-Mate teflon-treated magazine tubes that I'm testing. They work flawlessly, but the teflon seems to be relatively easily worn off at the high points that are banged against the receiver innards during the reloading process. I'm uncertain if they provide any significant benefits over the standard Check-Mate dry-film finished magazines that I've run for 12+ years in the gun (and while I've received several shipments of newer production dry-films, I'm making a point by deliberately running one of my older ones at this and the previous match, with a 2005 production date). No magazine issues whatsoever have surfaced, regardless of magazine production date (other than one slightly oversize tube that worked effectively, but didn't drop free; at trip back to Check-Mate's resizing die took care of that issue-it's been running flawlessly subsequent to that for literally years).

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Last weekend, I participated in the 2019 Washington State IDPA Championship match, and had a superb time....

https://i.imgur.com/KviWjFOl.jpg

Yep, under my jersey is my full-size Beretta 92D in an IWB and on my weak side, two 15 round magazines in an Olen kydex dual magazine pouch....not personally seeing an overarching need to go to the latest sub-compact hotness for concealed carry needs....

Here's the IWB holster I used; Bruce Clemans of Olen Holsters made it to my specifications, mainly with the dual clips to best support the size and weight of the 92D, and with a full sweat shield for both comfort and as an assist to re-holstering.

https://i.imgur.com/eEclFVql.jpg

The magazine pouch is also by Olen; for several years, I've experimented with downward-extracting magazine pouches; to withdraw the magazine, you simply tug down. It's particularly useful for summer carry under untucked Hawaiian shirts and similar, eliminating the need to pull the covering garment up first to access the magazine. Magazine security during m=normal movements and activities is achieved by incorporating subtle ledges that the magazine floorplates click into.

https://i.imgur.com/mCTnQr4l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZWy98zpl.jpg

And here's the 92D in all its relative glory:
https://i.imgur.com/fZxjshel.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hYhvZu5l.jpg

For any interested, the cap is a modern reproduction of an Italian M-43 cap; the maker, Brent, does a very nice job; I've purchased several of his caps over the years.
http://timemachine13.com/m_43_caps_.htm

Throughout the entire match, I used the same 3 Check-Mate magazines; one of the very first ones that Check-Mate provided to me to test back in 2007, a dry-film finished one, but with an experimental stainless steel spring, and two of the latest experimental ones they've provided to me for long-term testing, with the tubes finished in teflon (baseplates and followers of all magazines are also finished in dry-film).
https://i.imgur.com/J1hS25Nl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7DUJL8kl.jpg

All three magazines ran absolutely impeccably; the 2007 one is a 2005 production piece that I've used continuously for 12 years, for carry and IDPA-it certainly hasn't been babied. The more recent teflon tubed magazines have been run in several matches to date, with nary a bobble.

Key take-outs from the match:

1. The Langdon LTT G10 ultra-slim grips simply flat-out work; one of the stages required that our hands were immersed in a sink filled with water, and only at the start signal were we to remove them from the water and then draw and deploy our guns. The combination of the Langdon's checkering size and orientation, and the G10 material itself provided a stable, non-slip grip throughout, but also facilitated easy hand adjustments as required.
https://i.imgur.com/j8fhcS2l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XZpRGvel.jpg

2. The Trijicon/ToolTech tritium sights, with a orange surround/green tritium front and blackened surround/yellow tritium rears worked superbly as both day- and low-light sights. In a darkened shoot-house stage, with very low/diminished ambient light, I was easily able to negotiate the stage and effectively and accurately engage targets without needing to resort to my tactical flashlight.
https://i.imgur.com/X9ti8gJl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OlzhLZ9l.jpg

3. The Wilson Combat Extended and Checkered Magazine Release expedited speedy magazine ejections. As an after-market/non-OEM component, it jetted me into the deep waters of ESP, but a similar Beretta release (which I believe was originally made for the Vertec) is available from BUSA, and can keep you in SSP desired (it's the one Wilson Combat uses in their Wilson-Beretta collaborations, to keep the guns IDPA SSP legal); I'm perfectly satisfied with the one I've got, and could care less if I'm in SSP or ESP.
https://i.imgur.com/Fe3jkU1l.jpg

4. The upgraded Langdon/Wilson triggerbar provides a beautiful, consistent rolling trigger break, aided and abetted by a Wilson Combat chrome silicon trigger return spring and Wolff triggerbar spring, and a 13# Wilson Combat chrome silicon mainspring; all combine to provide a beautiful 6 lb triggerpull, enabling me to perform difficult shots, such as multiple headshot targets consistently on demand. The cartridges I used throughout the match were Sellier & Bellot 124 gr ball-clean and accurate, but also noted for having some of the tougher primers; I had absolutely zero ignition issues with the gun as set up.

5. I had absolutely no problems with reloading with my standard magazine well and lanyard loop, and feel no compelling desire to invest in a magazine chute or flared well for my 92D.

6. While I appreciate the additional carry beveling Ernst Langdon provides on his Beretta 92s, particularly on several locations on the frames, I had no hot spots, rubbing, or cuts from my OEM frame. While not an ultra-high count match (I fired 220 rounds in the match), the gun was used in 12 stages over a 9+ hour period. If I was to get one of Ernest Langdon's LTT 92s, I'm sure I'd appreciate the beveling provided, but don't feel it's an absolute necessity for normal 92 carry and use.

While I certainly didn't set any land-speed records, or win any plaques, I was very pleased with my match. Yep, there's huge room for improvement-there always is. But I had a great time, shot with a superb squad (including two exceptionally performing police officers and a former Navy pistol team member); we throughout the day encouraged and challenged each other to push our respective performance parameters. And the facility, Marty Hayes' FAS Academy inn Onalsaka WA, was very well suited for the match-he and his staff did a great job throughout.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Some other things/upgraded components I forgot to mention; the recoil spring assembly has been upgraded to a BUSA solid steel recoil spring guide rod and a Wilson Combat 14# chrome silicon recoil spring; the firing pin spring has been replaced with a Wilson Combat chrome silicon firing pin spring; and I also am running the extractor with a Wilson Combat standard strength chrome silicon spring.

The locking block assembly has been upgraded to the current generation of Beretta 92 locking block assembly.

I've already discussed all this before, but thought I'd recapitulate for the benefit of those new to the thread.

Best, Jon

[Jeep]

Some other things/upgraded components I forgot to mention; the recoil spring assembly has been upgraded to a BUSA solid steel recoil spring guide rod and a Wilson Combat 14# chrome silicon recoil spring; the firing pin spring has been replaced with a Wilson Combat chrome silicon firing pin spring; and I also am running the extractor with a Wilson Combat standard strength chrome silicon spring.

The locking block assembly has been upgraded to the current generation of Beretta 92 locking block assembly.

I've already discussed all this before, but thought I'd recapitulate for the benefit of those new to the thread.

Best, Jon

Thanks for the continuing updates, Jon.

[OlongJohnson]

You're not talking me out of a Centurion here.


No, I'm not. And I suspect that a D-model Centurion or a Compact would intrinsically be easier to shoot single-handedly, as the balance portion of the component would be significantly addressed.

Nevertheless, my 92D is a great gun, and I'm committed to dedicate the time and technique necessary to achieve mastery (well, at least competence) regarding my single-handed shooting with it.

Well, after a couple years of having a GB search set up for "92D Centurion," the lines of apparent condition and acceptable price finally intersected in a place where I had to go for it. I even posted a link in the "Want to buy a 92D Centurion" thread and none of you miserable P-Fers saved me from it. My Model 64 police trade-ins are ever closer to being for sale. My general idea is to do something more or less like Jon has done in this thread.

Just wondering which trigger bar to choose: Wilson or LTT?

Ernest has told me offline that his trigger bar would have limited benefit on a D. When I was shopping them on BF, the Wilson was a few bucks cheaper and comes with a spring kit bundled.

There's some discussion in this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37807-LTT-Beretta-92-Optimized-Performance-Trigger-Bar about the Wilson moving the DA break farther back. With my large hands and long fingers, that's not desired. Other posters say they can't tell a difference.

Has anyone installed them in the same gun (to eliminate sample-to-sample variation) and measured the DA break points?

Is there any meaningful difference between them on a D model?

JonInWA LangdonTactical

[JonInWA]

I talked to Ernest personally too, when his new options came out. Other than finish/aesthetics options, (if they appeal to you), for a D model, there's no operational advantage between his or the ones sold by Wilson. Best, Jon

[SeriousStudent]

.,...... My Model 64 police trade-ins are ever closer to being for sale.

Tell us about these Model 64's.......Any of them a 2 inch or 3 inch? :)

[CLaw]

I talked to Ernest personally too, when his new options came out. Other than finish/aesthetics options, (if they appeal to you), for a D model, there's no operational advantage between his or the ones sold by Wilson. Best, Jon

That being said, more the reason in my mind to go with the Langdon part to support the dude that has made a lot of this beretta love a reality.

[CraigS]

I haven't done a back to back comparison but have installed several of both TBs. Something I also started doing a couple years ago is reducing over travel via small pieces of various tape on the back of the trigger. You can see a small piece of light grey on this pistol.
https://live.staticflickr.com/1946/45194571062_7b6974b71d_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bRFZqs)Home Brewed EII (https://flic.kr/p/2bRFZqs) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
Reason I bring this up is my TJIBs started like everyone else w/ Wilson bars. I have since installed 3 LTT bars. When I changed the bars my tape thickness sometimes changed by one layer which is .012" thick. Some times it didn't change.

[OlongJohnson]

I like that idea. I'll probably mess around with foil tape for the purpose. I believe it's a little thinner for finer increments of change and should be less compressible for a more positive stop.

[CraigS]

Olong I have tried several tapes of various thicknesses and solidity. The one in the pic is actually a grey rubbery one used for stair traction. I used to make the tape about the same width as the trigger but sometimes that is too much. So I reduce the width. You can see on an older trigger that the contact to the frame is along a ridge on the frame and it is full trigger width. In the case of the rubber tape, reducing the width reduces the effect. I also use the tape I mentioned as being .012 thick. It is a UHMW clear plastic that is usually used to stop squeaks between two panels that rub on each other in a car. Also it works nicely as a slide agent like for a wooden drawer in a bureau. And it has a real good adhesive. I have also used pieces of black duct tape, and black electrical tape. Because lube can run onto the trigger from lubing it's pin, I always wipe the area off w/ brake cleaner or alcohol and I have never lost a piece of tape. When I first started doing this it was w/ my IDPA 92 w/ a TJIB. I shot just that gun for maybe 4-5 months. One day wife and I went to the range and I shot another 92. The DA pull w/ that huge overtravel and the trigger smacking the frame was a big surprise.

[beenalongtime]

Olong I have tried several tapes of various thicknesses and solidity. The one in the pic is actually a grey rubbery one used for stair traction. I used to make the tape about the same width as the trigger but sometimes that is too much. So I reduce the width. You can see on an older trigger that the contact to the frame is along a ridge on the frame and it is full trigger width. In the case of the rubber tape, reducing the width reduces the effect. I also use the tape I mentioned as being .012 thick. It is a UHMW clear plastic that is usually used to stop squeaks between two panels that rub on each other in a car. Also it works nicely as a slide agent like for a wooden drawer in a bureau. And it has a real good adhesive. I have also used pieces of black duct tape, and black electrical tape. Because lube can run onto the trigger from lubing it's pin, I always wipe the area off w/ brake cleaner or alcohol and I have never lost a piece of tape. When I first started doing this it was w/ my IDPA 92 w/ a TJIB. I shot just that gun for maybe 4-5 months. One day wife and I went to the range and I shot another 92. The DA pull w/ that huge overtravel and the trigger smacking the frame was a big surprise.


So basically grip tape. I expect he, like a lot of us, probably has a piece or two from some gun that he bought grip tape for and didn't use it all.

So CraigS, in your opinion, is he just better off with the factory bar, or looking for someone who updated their guns when the LTT bar came out?

[CraigS]

I have never shot a D only 92. I have a basic understanding how it works compared to fs or G but that's it. In fs or G the DA shot is fired w/ the trigger further forward than during an SA shot. Both LTT and Wilson bars bring the DA shot fire position rearward. The comment about having large hands and not wanting the DA shot position to move to the rear tells me it would not be an advantage.
Edit to add.
Olong, I have a Wilson bar sitting on my bench right now. It came out of a gun when I installed an NP3 TJIB a while ago. I was going to double check our 92s to see which to move it to. But, if you want to try one, PM me with your address and I will mail it to you. I want it back, but you trying it for a week or 2 would be fine.

[OlongJohnson]

Thanks, that's a generous offer. I will try to remember it after I get the D and get around to cleaning it up. Probably after TacCon.

The reason for me bringing up the trigger bar again is to eliminate the hitch that develops as the trigger bar wears, as Jon described early in this thread. My 96D has that hitch, and it is annoying after getting experience with DA guns that lack it. There are other technical solutions that I may explore as well.

[JonInWA]

Wilson/LTT triggerbar. Ask not, do. The 92D Yoda has spoken.....(or Yoda channeling through JonInWA...)
Best, Jon

[Joe in PNG]

I may just do the Wilson bar this summer.

[Jiman]

I’ve done a fair amount of trigger work on my BrigTac and although it’s not a D, in DA I’ve found the best results with the recently released Beretta xtreme S trigger group and LTT TB together.

I’ve had the stock, WC, and LTT in with the OEM trigger group, and they all more/less had the same breakpoint near the frame. The xtremeS trigger group sets the trigger in DA further away from the frame to start, breaks further from the frame, with very little over travel...all of which I much prefer. I also like the flatter faced trigger that becomes more vertical as the trigger is pulled.

The rest of my likes with the LTT TB have more to do with the shorter reset to SA vs. the other TB, which obviously doesn’t apply here.

[Winegamd]

I’ve done a fair amount of trigger work on my BrigTac and although it’s not a D, in DA I’ve found the best results with the recently released Beretta xtreme S trigger group and LTT TB together.

I’ve had the stock, WC, and LTT in with the OEM trigger group, and they all more/less had the same breakpoint near the frame. The xtremeS trigger group sets the trigger in DA further away from the frame to start, breaks further from the frame, with very little over travel...all of which I much prefer. I also like the flatter faced trigger that becomes more vertical as the trigger is pulled.

The rest of my likes with the LTT TB have more to do with the shorter reset to SA vs. the other TB, which obviously doesn’t apply here.

Other than the trigger geometry and coated parts, is there anything to this kit than just a lighter spring? It looks like just a factory Elite II hammer and the seer doesn't look any different.

[Jiman]

From what I can tell you’re right. The sear, and hammer appear the same. TBH, I didn’t take a detailed look at the TB. I had the WC TB in, swapped it out for the new one, pulled the trigger a few times and decided I liked the WC better. It wasn’t until I put in the LTT TB that everything seemed to come together to my liking.

I’m assuming, and I could be totally wrong, that the trigger return spring, and sear spring may be a touch lighter. I had a 12lb hammer spring in at the time of install and tried the new one, but I switched back to the 12lb after swapping them back/forth a few times to ensure reliability.

IMHO, the DLC coating doesn’t help the wear areas that much as far as smoothness goes. When I first installed the new parts, everything felt pretty gritty. I ended up polishing a bunch of parts, effectively sanding off the DLC coating. Afterwards it felt buttery. Who knows maybe if I shot a few hundred rounds to break everything in, the same thing could have happened but I kinda doubt it.

I polished the sear hooks, sides of the sear that contact the frame, sear pin, hammer pin, hammer hooks and sides, TB pin, hammer strut, and end of the hammer spring. I started with 600grit to knock off the coating and went to 1000-3000grit depending on the part. I don’t think I sanded through any of the hardened steel, but time will tell. I’ll make sure to check for any galling, etc... so far after @1000-1200rds, I haven’t seen any issues starting.

[JonInWA]

VZ and I discussed the appropriate grips for the 92D, and decided that the Palm Swell Recon Gen 2 grips would be better for me than the less aggressive Palm Swell Tactical Slant; while I've previously been pleased with the ultra slim Trausch grips, and even more so with their successors, the LTT/VZ G10 Ultra Slim grips, my recent experiences with the VZ G10 Palm Swell Operator II grips (with a Super Scoop on the left grip plate to expedite thumb access to the magazine release) on a 5" Government profile 1911 have helped me to realize that there are multiple components for a "best grip" fit for me on a given platform.

Slimness is important, particularly on a large-receivered gun like the double-stack magazine Beretta 92, but also is hand contact area and grip texturing. On relatively heavy, long-slided guns like a Beretta 92 or a Government 5" 1911, I've come to really appreciate several aspects: 1) Relative slimness, with ergonomics that assist my index with the gun, 2) Grippability-particularly on a full-size platform, for single-handed shooting, and aggressively texture really aids my control of the gun in terms of general handling and handling recoil.

The VZ Palm Swell grips I've found do two things for me: 1) Increase my hand contact area, 2) Lock the gun in place, increasing control and enabling me to aggressively control recoil and muzzle flip; and 3) Provide vestigial, but effective thumb shelves facilitating thumb placement and control, particularly desirable when shooting single-handedly.

Perennially, my greatest challenge with the Beretta 92D is performing accurate, repeatable and effective shots when single-handed shooting. The combination of the DAO trigger, requiring a repeated long trigger stroke, followed by a long reset, combined with a somewhat thick receiver profile and a relatively long 5" slide assembly make for difficult to put together JonInWA single handed shooting.

Going with the aggressively golf-ball dimple texturing of the Recon Gen 2 Palm Swell G10 grips has been a very productive change for me. These Gen 2 grips have uniform texturing on the entire grip, from top to bottom, instead of a smooth border. This singularly increases the ability of all portions of my grip to get locked in-especially beneficial at the tang, where the inner web of my palm can lock down. The palm swells increase the contact areas; the increased contact provides more locked-in support for control.

https://i.imgur.com/3v4Vk57h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nlj7TNKh.jpg

The grips, even with the incorporation of the palm swells, remain relatively thin, so handling isn't compromised:

https://i.imgur.com/TdvFJLhh.jpg

After using the 92D with these grips in two successive IDPA matches, I'm exceptionally pleased with them. I have not found the aggressive texture/stippling to be uncomfortable in EDC carry, both with OWB and IWB holsters. (And if they're found to be too aggressive, the edges of the stipple divots can be gently sanded down).

I chose to remain with the Dirty Olive color, both to commemorate my Army service, and also to facilitate a same-color appearance if I chose to experiment with the Dirty Olive colored LTT/VZ Ultra Slims and the Recon, using one grip texture on one side of the gun and the other on the other, a la HK P30 VP side panel permutations, but to date I just plan on keeping the Recons on both sides.

Installation was without drama; VZ provides a set of rubber O-rings for each mounting screw, which both facilitates grip mounting and preventing the attaching screws from backing out from recoil vibrations. The G10 material is weather impervious, but be aware that the intrinsic hardness of the G10 material means that there may be rub marks/finish scuffing at the points where the grips contact the metal receiver's finish.

In use, you definitely feel the stippling, but I didn't find it to be unduly harsh, abrasive or skin-cutting. While the stippled edges are aggressive (5/5 on VZ's grippiness guide, where the Tactical Slants are comparatively only at a 3/5), I had no problems in mounting the gun and adjusting my hand positions both in draw or in use during shooting when necessary. My clothes haven't been chewed up to date, although I probably won't be tempting fate by trying with a cashmere sweater or a similar fabric.

Here's a link tot the grips on the VZ website:

https://vzgrips.com/shop-all/semi-auto-pistols/beretta-92-grips/full-size/palm-swells/

https://vzgrips.com/products/vz-palm-swell-recon-gen2-beretta-92.html

https://vzgrips.com/products/vz-palm-swell-recon-gen2-beretta-92.html

I thoroughly enjoyed running the 92D in the 2 IDPA matches, and in the preparatory dry firing regimen preceding the matches. Checking back, it's been several years since I seriously ran the 92D, and it was good to be re-engaged with it. While not necessarily the best choice for ideal shootability when speed and minimal split times are ideal (ie.e, in competition), I'm a huge proponent of the 92D/HK LEM for duty/threat management guns, as our Darryl Boelke elaborated in his excellent thread discussion several years ago. In particular, the smooth, but long trigger stroke and lack of need to manually decock prior to reholstering I find to be of huge benefit in adrenalin-loaded threat/threat management encounters.

Additionally, in both matches I used High Desert Cartridge Company's remanufactured 124 grain 9mm ball, and after exhausting my supply halfway through the second IDPA match I transitioned to Rainier Arms' similar 124 gr remanufactured ball cartridges. Both were excellent, but I've been extremely impressed in particular with High Desert's offerings, both with these and with my previously tested 230 gr .45 ACP ball. The High Desert cartridges in particular seem to be equal in quality to similar factory cartridges, but at a much lower price point, accuracy and reliability have both been excellent. I've had one bad primer in one of Rainier Arms' remanufactured 9mm out of several thousand rounds, so theirs is a c=good choice, but I'm preferring the High Desert fodder for both its quality and availability.

https://highdesertcartridge.com/

https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-munitions-remanufactured-9mm-124gr-fmj-ammunition/

Especially for match/competition/training/familiarization use, these quality remanufactured cartridges are an excellent and viable value.


Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

In the recent February IDPA matches, I used two sets of magazines; Check-Mate's venerable dry-film magazines with tempered steel baseplates, which I've used as the primary magazines for my Beretta 92D since 2007. They included magazines produced in 12/2005, 1/2008, 7/20010, and 6/2015. These magazines have been properly treated on arrival (disassembled, with tube interiors, inner baseplates, followers and springs treated with Dri-Slide, a molybdenum disulfide dry film lubricant carried in a liquid carrier solution, which evaporates and leaves a film of lubricative and anti-corrosive on the components; tube exteriors and outer baseplates are treated with a light gun oil, currently Lucas Extreme Duty gun oil and wiped down before being placed in use).

These magazines have not been babied in use, but have been continuously maintained after each use. The have performed impeccably in my 17 years of continuous use, with only two issues as detailed earlier in the thread; a failure of the slide to lock back in one instance, arguably with an insufficiently firm grasp during a support-hand only stage of fire (and with fairly lightly loaded Federal Champion 115 gr cartridges-discussions with the tech at Federal/ATK strongly recommend subsequently using more powerful American Eagle, as the Champion load only chronoed at a 126 power factor...) and one magazine that didn't initially drop free-Check-Mate immediately resent it through their sizing die, and its performed faultlessly since).

I also have two 6/2015 production pieces that whose tubes were experimentally teflon coated by Check-Mate, which I use as my normal carry magazines.

Since Washington joined the growing list of states that ban new sales of high-capacity magazines, I decided several years ago that it would be prudent to get some Beretta 10-round 92 magazines (while Check-Mate has 10 round dry-film magazines catalogued, they're currently out of production), and obtained NIB three, two being US production pieces and one Italian; the only differences between the two types other than the rollmarkings is a slightly different baseplate retention stub in the inner baseplate component of the Italian production magazines; operation and disassembly is otherwise exactly the same. These are some of the better engineered and manufactured 10 round magazines that I've experienced, and they also have performed faultlessly (albeit in the rather limited use that I've subjected them two, as two were used for the first time in the recent matches, and the other had only been used as a "Barney" magazine in previous matches/training). They are easy to fully load and use, so if you need 10 round 92 magazines, these are the ones I'd recommend. Interestingly, only the Italian produced 10 rounder had the lower right side cut-out in the tube to allow for earlier 92S magazine releases.

Both sets of magazines performed without any drama whatsoever in the recent matches.

https://i.imgur.com/kpn55mnh.jpg

From left to right: Check-Mate teflon coated, Check-Mate dry-film finished, Italian-production Beretta 10 round (with additional 92S heel cut-out), US-production Beretta 10 round

Best, Jon

[GyroF-16]

In the recent February IDPA matches, I used two sets of magazines; Check-Mate's venerable dry-film magazines with tempered steel baseplates, which I've used as the primary magazines for my Beretta 92D since 2007. They included magazines produced in 12/2005, 1/2008, 7/20010, and 6/2015. These magazines have been properly treated on arrival (disassembled, with tube interiors, inner baseplates, followers and springs treated with Dri-Slide, a molybdenum disulfide dry film lubricant carried in a liquid carrier solution, which evaporates and leaves a film of lubricative and anti-corrosive on the components; tube exteriors and outer baseplates are treated with a light gun oil, currently Lucas Extreme Duty gun oil and wiped down before being placed in use).

These magazines have not been babied in use, but have been continuously maintained after each use. The have performed impeccably in my 17 years of continuous use, with only two issues as detailed earlier in the thread; a failure of the slide to lock back in one instance, arguably with an insufficiently firm grasp during a support-hand only stage of fire (and with fairly lightly loaded Federal Champion 115 gr cartridges-discussions with the tech at Federal/ATK strongly recommend subsequently using more powerful American Eagle, as the Champion load only chronoed at a 126 power factor...) and one magazine that didn't initially drop free-Check-Mate immediately resent it through their sizing die, and its performed faultlessly since).

I also have two 6/2015 production pieces that whose tubes were experimentally teflon coated by Check-Mate, which I use as my normal carry magazines.

Since Washington joined the growing list of states that ban new sales of high-capacity magazines, I decided several years ago that it would be prudent to get some Beretta 10-round 92 magazines (while Check-Mate has 10 round dry-film magazines catalogued, they're currently out of production), and obtained NIB three, two being US production pieces and one Italian; the only differences between the two types other than the rollmarkings is a slightly different baseplate retention stub in the inner baseplate component of the Italian production magazines; operation and disassembly is otherwise exactly the same. These are some of the better engineered and manufactured 10 round magazines that I've experienced, and they also have performed faultlessly (albeit in the rather limited use that I've subjected them two, as two were used for the first time in the recent matches, and the other had only been used as a "Barney" magazine in previous matches/training). They are easy to fully load and use, so if you need 10 round 92 magazines, these are the ones I'd recommend. Interestingly, only the Italian produced 10 rounder had the lower right side cut-out in the tube to allow for earlier 92S magazine releases.

Both sets of magazines performed without any drama whatsoever in the recent matches.

https://i.imgur.com/kpn55mnh.jpg

From left to right: Check-Mate teflon coated, Check-Mate dry-film finished, Italian-production Beretta 10 round (with additional 92S heel cut-out), US-production Beretta 10 round

Best, Jon

Cool.
Where did you find the US-made 10 rounders with no heel cutout?
All the 10 and 15 rd magazines I’ve seen offered on the Beretta USA site seem to have the heel cutout, or only show images of the opposite side, so it’s impossible to tell whether they have it. I don’t like the cutout, as it allows a lot of sand to get into the interior of the magazine when dropped during matches here (and I have many mags with the cutout).

[JonInWA]

Cool.
Where did you find the US-made 10 rounders with no heel cutout?
All the 10 and 15 rd magazines I’ve seen offered on the Beretta USA site seem to have the heel cutout, or only show images of the opposite side, so it’s impossible to tell whether they have it. I don’t like the cutout, as it allows a lot of sand to get into the interior of the magazine when dropped during matches here (and I have many mags with the cutout).

I actually got them as I recall a couple of years ago, in conjunction wit the passage of the Washington magazine capacity limitation law; I got them as a pro-active measure as the bill(s) started to meander their way through the Washington legislative houses. I obtained them through my FFL at the time commercially, the left side of the tubes is rollmarked "PB CAL.9PARA-MADE IN U.S.A. ACKK., MD" so perhaps Beretta USA changed over to providing the 92S cut-outs on later production 10 rounders-or did so in conjunction with their move to the Tennessee factory.

Disassembly is easy with these magazines, so clean-outs for maintenance shouldn't be too onerous if you can't get the ones without the cut-outs, but you might want to call BUSA and see if they have any NOS without the cut-outs still available.

Alternatively, it might be worthwhile to check with MecGar, which are well regarded, but I don't have any experience with their 92 magazines personally.

Best, Jon

[Noah]

I actually got them as I recall a couple of years ago, in conjunction wit the passage of the Washington magazine capacity limitation law; I got them as a pro-active measure as the bill(s) started to meander their way through the Washington legislative houses. I obtained them through my FFL at the time commercially, the left side of the tubes is rollmarked "PB CAL.9PARA-MADE IN U.S.A. ACKK., MD" so perhaps Beretta USA changed over to providing the 92S cut-outs on later production 10 rounders-or did so in conjunction with their move to the Tennessee factory.

Disassembly is easy with these magazines, so clean-outs for maintenance shouldn't be too onerous if you can't get the ones without the cut-outs, but you might want to call BUSA and see if they have any NOS without the cut-outs still available.

Alternatively, it might be worthwhile to check with MecGar, which are well regarded, but I don't have any experience with their 92 magazines personally.

Best, Jon

The Mec Gar 10 and 15 rounder are just their standard (excellent) 18 round tube with a capacity limiting dimple, as far as I remember.

[ECVMatt]

Not to totally derail this thread, but in college I helped manage a gun store (early 90's). We had a 92 D that we could not get rid of. I think we finally sold it for 250 bucks to a somewhat reluctant buyer. Hind sight is 20/20, but I should have bought that gun just to throw in the safe. Now I wish I really would have bought that gun. I do remember the DA trigger being excellent, however I was not mature enough to understand the benefit.

[JonInWA]

Not to totally derail this thread, but in college I helped manage a gun store (early 90's). We had a 92 D that we could not get rid of. I think we finally sold it for 250 bucks to a somewhat reluctant buyer. Hind sight is 20/20, but I should have bought that gun just to throw in the safe. Now I wish I really would have bought that gun. I do remember the DA trigger being excellent, however I was not mature enough to understand the benefit.

You're not the only one; my first personal 92 was a 92D Centurion Police Special, which I foolishly traded, although in retrospect, my subsequent (and current) 92D is a better gun for me, and in nicer shape out of the box. And we won't mention the 92 Compact L Type M that I had, with OEM Trijicons and a set of Farrar grips, with multiple magazines that I bought new, used and carried lightly, with a Kramer horsehide holster that I also traded back in the day...

Best, Jon

[Coal Train]

JonInWA would you mind sharing your insight into front sight options for a 92D?

I have a 92D Centurion police trade in that has been sitting in the safe for a few years. I have debating sending it into LTT for a slicking up but I haven't been able to justify the expense. My main issue is the sights, it has tritium sights on it now. I "need" something colorful on the front with a blacked out rear. My preference would be for a fiberoptic but my understanding is that if the tritium is dead no one will drill it out. These look pretty dead to me. I have considered painting it but I wanted to check and see if there is any other option first.

I have definitely benefited from reading your experience in this thread so thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

[BN]

however I was not mature enough to understand the benefit.

That's the story of my life. That's sig line material. :)

[JonInWA]

JonInWA would you mind sharing your insight into front sight options for a 92D?

I have a 92D Centurion police trade in that has been sitting in the safe for a few years. I have debating sending it into LTT for a slicking up but I haven't been able to justify the expense. My main issue is the sights, it has tritium sights on it now. I "need" something colorful on the front with a blacked out rear. My preference would be for a fiberoptic but my understanding is that if the tritium is dead no one will drill it out. These look pretty dead to me. I have considered painting it but I wanted to check and see if there is any other option first.

I have definitely benefited from reading your experience in this thread so thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

If you want to remain with tritium, I'd give ToolTech a call to see what your options are; as I recall, it somewhat depends on the actual status of the tritium in terms of relamping.

The "Easy Button" solution is simply to carefully paint the tube face (or the entire front sight face-your call/preference) with a white base coat, and then when that's thoroughly dry, put an upper coat of neon/fluorescent orange or green (or whatever your color preferences are-I use orange for mine). When that's totally dry, give it a top coat of Testor's Dullcote or similar to prevent reflectivity/light scatter.

I'm glad you're enjoying and have benefitted from the thread. I plan on keeping it ongoing, with others always welcome to chime in and add to it.

Best, Jon

[MattyD380]

Me:

115805115806

I've been wanting a legit Beretta Cougar for a while. Figured I'd hold out for an F, but this sexy 8000D popped up on Armslist for a good price.

Haven’t shot it yet… but... best DA pull on a Beretta I’ve experienced. Smooth, no stacking, not too heavy, and it feels like there's less overtravel than what I experience with the F Berettas. The gun seems to jostle less when the hammer falls in DA, so the sights don't bounce around.

Are the Cougars known to have better DA pulls than 92s? Granted, I've never tried an actual 92D. But I remember putting a 12lb Wilson mainspring in my 2015 92FS Compact... even then, the DA on that gun was nowhere near as nice as what's on this Cougar. Like, night and day.

Can't wait to shoot it.

[Bucky]

Are the Cougars known to have better DA pulls than 92s? Granted, I've never tried an actual 92D. But I remember putting a 12lb Wilson mainspring in my 2015 92FS Compact... even then, the DA on that gun was nowhere near as nice as what's on this Cougar. Like, night and day.

Perhaps. I had the L model, originally an F model, but very easily converted to a G without buying any additional parts. The trigger was great, made better with a D spring, which yours already has.

[Bucky]

Perhaps. I had the L model, originally an F model, but very easily converted to a G without buying any additional parts. The trigger was great, made better with a D spring, which yours already has.

Too late to edit.

To clarify, the L "model" is a compact... unless it's an L Type P which is a full size, but with the "compact's" lighter slide. (WTF were they thinking with these name). The F vs G is standard 92 speak, safety vs. decock only.

[MattyD380]

Too late to edit.

To clarify, the L "model" is a compact... unless it's an L Type P which is a full size, but with the "compact's" lighter slide. (WTF were they thinking with these name). The F vs G is standard 92 speak, safety vs. decock only.

Yeah, I know Beretta did some crazy things with the Cougar naming designations. I know there was, like, a mid-length grip option... which sometimes had a slide with tons of cuts (that's the L, right?). And then they had the minis with the subcompact grip.

Either way... the D is the D... in both 8000 and 92 land.

Hoping to get the gun to the range today.

[JonInWA]

Matty, the good news is that I haven't heard of significant issues with the 9mm Cougars; the tarbabies were the .40 and .357 SIG (especially the .357 SIG). I strongly advise using either TW25B or a grease (I prefer Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2) on the rotational portion of the barrel breech, lugs and cam tooth piece.

Currently I'm preferential towards Lucas Extreme Gun Oil, MC 25 for bore cleaning, and the stuff cited above.

Let us know how it goes.

Best, Jon

[MattyD380]

Matty, the good news is that I haven't heard of significant issues with the 9mm Cougars; the tarbabies were the .40 and .357 SIG (especially the .357 SIG). I strongly advise using either TW25B or a grease (I prefer Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2) on the rotational portion of the barrel breech, lugs and cam tooth piece.

Currently I'm preferential towards Lucas Extreme Gun Oil, MC 25 for bore cleaning, and the stuff cited above.

Let us know how it goes.

Best, Jon

Thanks, Jon!

You know, I had an 8045 Cougar a few years back and I used TW25B in the action. Had FTFs. Action felt kinda sluggish. Maybe that wasn’t the issue… maybe the gun was just temperamental. But I’ve always wondered if the grease was too viscous for the action. Or maybe I was using too much? I’ve only used oil in my PX4 and it has worked fine. Though I generally use the blue Lucas stuff, which is a bit thicker.

Anyway…

I put 100 rounds through the Cougar this evening… ran like a top. Which, coincidentally, also rotates :) The gun came with 2 factory mags and 2 ProMags—it even ran fine with the ProMags.

I was able to pull some pretty decent groups at 10 yards. Here’s 35 rounds:

115856

The trigger is very shootable—and less fatiguing than many DA triggers I’ve tried. That said, after spending some quality time with it, I do find there is just a touch of stacking/friction right before the hammer falls. Though it’s not nearly as pronounced as what I find on my DA/SA 92s. If I wasn’t careful, it wanted to go a little right (which, strangely, is my normal “mode of error” on DA triggers). But… aside that trio of flyers… not too bad. Plus… you get all the super-smooth, plush-ness of the Beretta rotating action. It’s dreamy.

It’s a really fun gun to shoot. Not in the same way as, like, a really nice SA trigger. But it feels like you’re earning every hit. And as a long as I take my time, I find it to be a tack driver.

Believe it or not, Hogue still offers G10 grips for Cougars! I might grab a pair. In any case… it’s a neat gun and a cool, functional piece of Beretta history.

[AdioSS]

Believe it or not, Hogue still offers G10 grips for Cougars! I might grab a pair. In any case… it’s a neat gun and a cool, functional piece of Beretta history.

Yep, I’ve got a set of the checkered ones. I cut them down to use on my 8040D MiniCougar

https://i.imgur.com/mSlVOKdl.jpeg

And the sight dovetail cuts are the same dimensions as the Vertec slides, so you can use sights for many of the newer model 92’s. And it looks like your Cougar uses the same magazine release as the 92, unlike the early Cougars. If you ever decide to convert it to DA/SA then the hammer, sear, sear pin, & sear spring from the 92 also fit in the frame. The trigger bar is different than the 92, but you can get a super short reset by tweaking the Decocker lever just a bit.

Oh yeah, you can take any magazines designed for the 92 (i.e. MecGar 18 round M9) and cut a higher notch to make it fit the Cougar.

[Lyonsgrid]

I've had this 8000 in the back of a safe for years. This thread is really making me want to put it into action!


115868

[GyroF-16]

So…. Is the Cougar about to become the latest P-F hipster gun?

[MattyD380]

Yep, I’ve got a set of the checkered ones. I cut them down to use on my 8040D MiniCougar

https://i.imgur.com/mSlVOKdl.jpeg

And the sight dovetail cuts are the same dimensions as the Vertec slides, so you can use sights for many of the newer model 92’s. And it looks like your Cougar uses the same magazine release as the 92, unlike the early Cougars. If you ever decide to convert it to DA/SA then the hammer, sear, sear pin, & sear spring from the 92 also fit in the frame. The trigger bar is different than the 92, but you can get a super short reset by tweaking the Decocker lever just a bit.

Oh yeah, you can take any magazines designed for the 92 (i.e. MecGar 18 round M9) and cut a higher notch to make it fit the Cougar.

Nice! Those grips look great. Very nicely done. And thanks for those tips. I went ahead and ordered the G10s. I think better traction may help stabilize gun during the DA take-up. Some fresh sights could certainly help, too.

I guess I'd have to get an F slide to make it DA/SA. No lever cutout. Nevertheless... there is a Stoeger 9mm slide floating around on eBay as we speak. But I'll probably roll with DAO for now. It's kinda fun.

Speaking of DAO...

Could one use PX4 hammer springs in a Cougar? Could maybe get away with a chrome-silicon Langdon/Wilson 11# / 12# hammer spring? Which I think is even lighter than the factory D spring (16#?).

And, in case anyone's wondering, I already looked: LTT doesn't work on Cougars, per their FAQ. At least these kind of Cougars... ;)

Mine is a 1995 build--which is second year (I think), so fairly early. I inserted a 92 mag, and it seemed to fit other than the cutout. Might be worth trying if I cover come upon some cheapo 92 mags.

[MattyD380]

So…. Is the Cougar about to become the latest P-F hipster gun?

I support, endorse and embrace this... erm... "motion."

[AdioSS]

You can add the single action parts, but you will just need to thumb down the hammer like you would with a CZ75 or a revolver since there’s no decocker. Hammer springs from a 92 will fit the Cougar. True that LTT don’t do work on them, but since it is a D with a single piece firing pin, Ernest did say years ago that a D can go about a pound lighter on the hammer spring with the same functionality.

[MattyD380]

You can add the single action parts, but you will just need to thumb down the hammer like you would with a CZ75 or a revolver since there’s no decocker. Hammer springs from a 92 will fit the Cougar. True that LTT don’t do work on them, but since it is a D with a single piece firing pin, Ernest did say years ago that a D can go about a pound lighter on the hammer spring with the same functionality.

Gotcha! Thanks, dude! I may look into swapping out the spring.

[Noah]

So…. Is the Cougar about to become the latest P-F hipster gun?

People have been crying for a PX4 revamp and metal frame versions of poly guns are so in right now...

It's been right in front of us the whole time...

[JonInWA]

I'm a little, no, color that a lot more skeptical. Todd Green and I had some pretty detailed discussions about the Cougar, and I personally had an 8357 which I had obtained BNIB, presumably an override from the North Carolina production run.

It's a gun that I really wanted to like; the ergos were quite nice, and I was intrigued by the potential of the rotating barrel/cam tooth concept, particularly regarding higher intensity/energy/pressure spiking cartridges, like .357 SIG and .40.

Unfortunately, if frankly just didn't work all that well in reality with .357 SIG and .40. Both NH HP (.357 SIG) and Utah HP (.40) divested themselves of their Cougars well before they approached their forecasted end of use lifespan. There were significant extraction issues that were never successfully resolved, particularly with .357 SIG, despite repeated BUSA engineering/re-engineering efforts. If the guns were not properly and continuously lubricated, in relatively short order during firing sessions they would seize up, and couldn't be further operational until the reciprocating metal parts cooled.

Concurrently, I suspect that there was very little, if any advantages derived from the rotating barrel with 9mm; .45 ACP, I'm not sure, but LAPD, who authorized a special longer barrel version of it specifically produced for them was much more predisposed to the Glock G21, as it was lighter, had a greater magazine capacity, had lower maintenance requirements, and was more weather impervious (and presumably was far less expensive regarding the guns, magazines, spare parts and armorer training, and required far less time for maintenance protocols).

Interesting gun, very nicely made, but kind of like the WW1 experiences the Canadians had with the Ross rifle, which failed miserably in the gauntlet of real world use.

Its successor, the PX4 has fared much better. As a hipster, dilettante pistol, the Cougar has its charms, but for actual use, there are far better choices, in my opinion.

Best, Jon

[MattyD380]

I'm a little, no, color that a lot more skeptical. Todd Green and I had some pretty detailed discussions about the Cougar, and I personally had an 8357 which I had obtained BNIB, presumably an override from the North Carolina production run.

It's a gun that I really wanted to like; the ergos were quite nice, and I was intrigued by the potential of the rotating barrel/cam tooth concept, particularly regarding higher intensity/energy/pressure spiking cartridges, like .357 SIG and .40.

Unfortunately, if frankly just didn't work all that well in reality with .357 SIG and .40. Both NH HP (.357 SIG) and Utah HP (.40) divested themselves of their Cougars well before they approached their forecasted end of use lifespan. There were significant extraction issues that were never successfully resolved, particularly with .357 SIG, despite repeated BUSA engineering/re-engineering efforts. If the guns were not properly and continuously lubricated, in relatively short order during firing sessions they would seize up, and couldn't be further operational until the reciprocating metal parts cooled.

Concurrently, I suspect that there was very little, if any advantages derived from the rotating barrel with 9mm; .45 ACP, I'm not sure, but LAPD, who authorized a special longer barrel version of it specifically produced for them was much more predisposed to the Glock G21, as it was lighter, had a greater magazine capacity, had lower maintenance requirements, and was more weather impervious (and presumably was far less expensive regarding the guns, magazines, spare parts and armorer training, and required far less time for maintenance protocols).

Interesting gun, very nicely made, but kind of like the WW1 experiences the Canadians had with the Ross rifle, which failed miserably in the gauntlet of real world use.

Its successor, the PX4 has fared much better. As a hipster, dilettante pistol, the Cougar has its charms, but for actual use, there are far better choices, in my opinion.

Best, Jon

Yeah, I remember hearing that Todd was not a fan of the Cougar. Like I said, I also encountered some problems with that .45 Cougar I had. But, after slathering the action in copious amounts of grease, I have to concede that may have been the issue. I remember it shooting fine for a while... then, after I shot another gun... the action felt kinda sluggish and kerchunk-y. I'm guessing that _hit congealed in the action while the gun cooled. In any case... after 100 rounds and a fresh coat of oil, this 9mm Cougar seems to work fine. Not that 100 rounds is a lot.

The biggest difference I can see between the Cougar and PX4 is the lug pattern. The Cougar has thinner "fins" that slide into narrow channels machined into the slide. The PX4 uses more of a "lobe" shaped primary lug that mates with broader contoured areas inside the slide. I could see how excess crud/sludge might cause more of an obstruction with Cougar's design. But who knows... I know nothing of engineering. And I will second Jon's perspective that the Cougar feels like an extremely high-quality piece of machinery. Sturdy, heavy and dense.

In any case... sorry for the thread drift. This discussion is about DAO Berettas.

I'm happy with the way this one shoots. The G10 grips arrive tomorrow. I may also experiment with some lighter chrome-silicon hammer springs--not that it's heavy, as is. But... you know...