Current state of modular handguns

[octagon]

After coming across the news that Ghost Guns is planning on making a 80% firing assembly for the Sig P320 I started to become more interested in modular guns so I thought I would start a thread to keep resource of news and changes to modular handguns together. There are already a few different manufacturers of modular guns and various grip frame sizes,colors and accessories available and more likely to come.

Modular guns

Sig P320 and variants
Beretta APX
Steyr M,S,L, and C variants
Honor Defense Honor Guard and variants
Arsenal Stryk B

Links

Sig P320 https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/pistols/p320/

Beretta APX http://www.beretta.com/en-us/apx-striker/

Steyr http://steyrarms.com/firearms/pistols.html

Honor Defense http://www.honordefense.com/pistols.html

Arsenal Stryk B https://arsenalfirearms.eu/en/

Some of these have different colors,length slides and grip frame length and sizes as well as changeable backstraps sizes or shapes. All of them use a serialized firing assembly that is fitted into the grip frame module that is the actual firearm. Ghost Guns has announced plans to make a 80% complete firing assembly and finishing kit for the Sig P320 which since it was recently adopted by the US Army and is farther along into the market with success should do well.

According to the manufacturer of the Stryk B the guns are being produced currently in Germany and they have submitted the paperwork for approval for US sales to the BATFE so as soon as they get approval they will begin distribution. This gun I find interesting as it has a different barrel locking mechanism from the ubiquitous Browning or modified Browning versions not there there is anything wrong with them,rotating barrels or other system but interesting. They are also claiming a 12mm bore axis as one of the lowest available. Whether it matters or not is a different issue but between the two factors it could be a very flat shooting gun.

Both the Styrk B and Honor Guard guns take Glock sights and the Honor Guard uses most S&W Shield holsters. I haven't been able to confirm it but the Honor Guard also uses magazines very similar to the S&W Shield and may with modified mag catch be able to be adapted for use. This may also mean that Magguts increased capacity and other aftermarket added capacity parts could work. They recently introduced a 4" "longslide" version of the same gun kind of splitting the difference between a Shield and Glock 19 in a single stack 9mm. That they are all American made and employ veterans isn't a bad thing in my book either.

Ghostguns 80% P320 kit info

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/05/fire-control-group-p320/

Of course nothing new or innovative comes without issues and there is already 1 lawsuit for modular design with Steyr vs Sig.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/lawsuit-filed-sig-sauer-steyr-patent-infringement-new-army-p320/

And the PF discussion here starting on page 5 https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24934-New-duty-pistol-%96-SIG-P320-Carry-9mm/page5&highlight=Steyr+modular

Here is a picture of the Honor Guard firing assembly since I couldn't find one and contacted the company to confirm they were modular design.

17770

[octagon]

Initially I wasn't that impressed with a gun being modular. I can see the benefits to an organization and larger ones even more so. But for the average person in particular my own personal needs and wants it didn't do much to intrigue me. Once I saw the 80% build kits as a possibility and considered how easy it would be to do a 3D printed frame I considered it more. I was able to check out a Beretta APX,Steyr and Honor Guard at my local gun shop and all 3 guns (along with P320 I had already been able to check out) were nice pieces with good quality,fit and finish. They had nice features and compared to direct competitors (Glocks and Shield) some features the others didn't have not including the modularity factor.

Below are some benefits I can think of and I couldn't come up with any cons to a modular gun.

Cheaper and easier to change grip shape
Cheaper and easier to change grip size (Compact frame,mid size,sub compact etc..)
Cheaper and easier to change grip color
Less risky to modify grip texture or features(Finger grooves,stippling,undercut trigger guard etc..)
Ease of repair and replacing parts in some designs(although Glocks are probably the easiest gun I know of for this)
Reduced expense and complexity for fitting a gun to varied size hands and shooters in an organization. By changing grip modules an armorer could fit small to large hand officers at an agency as well as changing a gun for detective/administrative duty changes, plain clothes assignments or other changes while maintaining a single serial number issued to an officer. This aids in maintenance issues as well as the serialized part is X amount of age and X number of rounds through it for parts replacement.

All the modular guns have ambi slide lock/release levers, ambi or reversible magazine buttons and except for the Steyr (The oldest design of modern guns) all have forward and rear cocking serrations. All are polymer frame and offered in 9mm with other calibers available or soon to be available.

If a person is looking for choice the modular guns are offered in single or double stack, striker or hammer fired (if the Sig P250 is the same) and frame sizes from sub compact to longslide versions. They are also offered in various competition and red dot variants.

The concept is growing on me and I haven't found a downside. Am I missing something significant?

[mrozowjj]

I don't think the Steyr is modular.

[spinmove_]

I don't think the Steyr is modular.

It is. There's a video posted in a thread around here showing that it is. Steyr is also in the process of taking legal action against SIG over said feature.


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[octagon]

Here you go for details from about 1:30-3:30 mark. Steyr disassembly video showing firing module being removed and replaced in frame.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgpMoAwYLgQ

[Gray222]

With the p320 getting the big army nod, there will likely be more development in the future.

[GardoneVT]

Initially I wasn't that impressed with a gun being modular. I can see the benefits to an organization and larger ones even more so. But for the average person in particular my own personal needs and wants it didn't do much to intrigue me. Once I saw the 80% build kits as a possibility and considered how easy it would be to do a 3D printed frame I considered it more. I was able to check out a Beretta APX,Steyr and Honor Guard at my local gun shop and all 3 guns (along with P320 I had already been able to check out) were nice pieces with good quality,fit and finish. They had nice features and compared to direct competitors (Glocks and Shield) some features the others didn't have not including the modularity factor.

Below are some benefits I can think of and I couldn't come up with any cons to a modular gun.

Cheaper and easier to change grip shape
Cheaper and easier to change grip size (Compact frame,mid size,sub compact etc..)
Cheaper and easier to change grip color
Less risky to modify grip texture or features(Finger grooves,stippling,undercut trigger guard etc..)
Ease of repair and replacing parts in some designs(although Glocks are probably the easiest gun I know of for this)
Reduced expense and complexity for fitting a gun to varied size hands and shooters in an organization. By changing grip modules an armorer could fit small to large hand officers at an agency as well as changing a gun for detective/administrative duty changes, plain clothes assignments or other changes while maintaining a single serial number issued to an officer. This aids in maintenance issues as well as the serialized part is X amount of age and X number of rounds through it for parts replacement.

All the modular guns have ambi slide lock/release levers, ambi or reversible magazine buttons and except for the Steyr (The oldest design of modern guns) all have forward and rear cocking serrations. All are polymer frame and offered in 9mm with other calibers available or soon to be available.

If a person is looking for choice the modular guns are offered in single or double stack, striker or hammer fired (if the Sig P250 is the same) and frame sizes from sub compact to longslide versions. They are also offered in various competition and red dot variants.

The concept is growing on me and I haven't found a downside. Am I missing something significant?

For there to be an upside applicable to Joe Gunowner, American gun laws would have to get very bad indeed.

I'm reminded of Tanfoglio pistols- overseas they're great because a shooter can switch calibers and slide without the onerous background checks European Union nations love. Here you just buy another pistol. :)

[octagon]

For there to be an upside applicable to Joe Gunowner, American gun laws would have to get very bad indeed.

I'm reminded of Tanfoglio pistols- overseas they're great because a shooter can switch calibers and slide without the onerous background checks European Union nations love. Here you just buy another pistol. :)

That is pretty much true and I'm glad for it. However I can see a situation where a person could have 2 of the same modular guns and if one has a problem and needs to be sent in for repair the owner could switch over to their preferred frame or competition set up or whatever their need or choice was and still be good. The owner could also buy a second frame module and send it off for mods,stippling or whatnot and still have a gun with the original frame module. Yes both would be uncommon and/or require a second frame or firing assembly but not unheard of.

Entry level and shooters with limited budget could have a couple frame modules for less money than a second gun so I guess that is also a benefit to American gun owners in certain demographics. Those in restricted area where there is a limit on how many guns can be bought per month would also benefit.

Maybe I am an optimist instead or a realist ;-)

[modrecoil]

I don't think the Steyr is modular.
I have three of them, been shooting em for years, and didn't know Steyrs were modular until the Sig lawsuit. Maybe because while Sig was monetizing and exploiting the feature to make a fortune and win contracts, Steyr's marketing division was out to lunch.

[octagon]

It is too late to edit the original post to add this but the Beretta Nano is also a modular handgun. I missed it. Any others?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NMjpAIwbns

[runcible]

Beretta Pico
Ruger American

[TiroFijo]

Since virtually anybody can shoot a G19 and a G17 size handguns, I see near zero gains in modular designs...

[octagon]

I ran across this video which shows the firing module removal and reassembly more clearly than a single picture. Starts at 15 min mark to 18 min. Honorguard longslide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V0WinuYuU0&t=661s

[octagon]

Thanks Runcible.

Here is the Ruger American showing it's firing module disassembly and replacement. I am finding the different design interesting in how similar they are mounted in the frame module so similarly to the Sig P320/Steyr with rear secured with a tab and the front with the takedown lever/pin. I wonder if this will lead to more lawsuits or if the Steyr vs Sig will be the test case focused on the biggest money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wzAe0kw_v4



ETA I won't add the Beretta Pico disassembly as it is almost identical to the previously posted Beretta Nano which has similarities to the APX. One key difference is it is also a single stack like the Nano and Honor Guard but smaller for smaller calibers and also hammer fired.

[john c]

Since virtually anybody can shoot a G19 and a G17 size handguns, I see near zero gains in modular designs...

The biggest advantage I see is more end user serviceability. A guy I used to shoot with had the frame of his HK crack. I don't recall if this was due to bad ammo or other abuse. HK told him he needed to replace the frame. Since he lives in California, he was out of luck due to restrictive gun laws. If he had a modular pistol, a $45 replacement would have solved the issue.

Even if the FCU is damaged, it's still all metal and so there are more options to fix it versus a plastic frame.

I'm not selling my Glocks, but I see the advantage.


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[Duelist]

It is too late to edit the original post to add this but the Beretta Nano is also a modular handgun. I missed it. Any others?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NMjpAIwbns

Most KelTec handguns. Cheap guns, yes, but modular.

[TiroFijo]

The biggest advantage I see is more end user serviceability. A guy I used to shoot with had the frame of his HK crack. I don't recall if this was due to bad ammo or other abuse. HK told him he needed to replace the frame. Since he lives in California, he was out of luck due to restrictive gun laws. If he had a modular pistol, a $45 replacement would have solved the issue.

Even if the FCU is damaged, it's still all metal and so there are more options to fix it versus a plastic frame.

I'm not selling my Glocks, but I see the advantage.

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But for service pistos?
Decommission the frame and put a new one, just as fast, easy and cheap. All have (or should have) codebars anyway.

[octagon]

Most KelTec handguns. Cheap guns, yes, but modular.

Interesting design. I found the below video of complete disassembly of the KelTec PF9 which is the same design as the P32 and P3AT. They do have a firing assembly that fits in the polymer frame and that assembly is the serialized part. However when the gun is disassembled fully or a frame change is done there is more to the swap or disassembly than any of the other modular guns. This is due to the fact that in KelTec P32,P3AT,and PF9 all leave the hammer block and spring held in the frame by a third pin not required to be removed to remove the firing assembly. The design also has a hammer strut and spring assembly that is attached via grip plug that has to be assembled and supported by the frame for proper functioning.

This design seems to be modular to some level but is not truly a complete firing assembly that contains all the firing parts and removed or installed as a single complete assembly as all the other modular guns listed previously. I would consider the Kel Tecs as a hybrid modular design or a conventional design with a firing assembly module and separate hammer block and spring assembly.

This is just my opinion considering the other guns that are listed as modular have a single assembly or module that contains all the firing parts in 1 unit and is able to be removed or placed in the frame as a single assembly. Whether this type of design would be considered modular by the recent Army MHS request or similar request from an organization for a modular designed handgun is something I don't know to comment on. Looking at a Glock the triggerbar remains connected to the extractor housing which contains almost all the parts needed to fire the and is a loose assembly that is removed or replaced in the frame together. Only the locking block and slidelever with attached spring are left similarly to the KelTecs. Glock does not have the frame rails as part of the assembly nor do they have the serial number as part of the assembly nor visible where the KelTec does. Thus my reasoning for looking at the KelTecs as a hybrid modular design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6oZySqWSk

No slam on KelTec.

[octagon]

But for service pistos?
Decommission the frame and put a new one, just as fast, easy and cheap. All have (or should have) codebars anyway.

I disagree. Decommissioning the frame and replacing the damaged frame with a new one involves shipping the damaged frame to the manufacturer, having the new frame shipped through FFL dealer then reassemble all the parts into the new frame. I don't know how much each manufacturer charges for frame replacement but even if it is the same price as a modular gun's frame module it cannot all be done by the end user with parts shipped via normal mail channels to complete.

[GardoneVT]

I disagree. Decommissioning the frame and replacing the damaged frame with a new one involves shipping the damaged frame to the manufacturer, having the new frame shipped through FFL dealer then reassemble all the parts into the new frame. I don't know how much each manufacturer charges for frame replacement but even if it is the same price as a modular gun's frame module it cannot all be done by the end user with parts shipped via normal mail channels to complete.

In some states with rosters (like California), changing the serial number means the pistol must be re-registered with the applicable waiting period and registration fees. Which is a problem for the owner when a gun is delisted from the roster.

[TiroFijo]

Sorry, I was talking in the spirit of the MHS pistol.

SERVICE pistols... as in .mil or LE service. Surely the lowest level of armorer can handle that.

[critter]

On the Honor Guard site, I could find neither a complete pistol nor the modular trigger assembly for sale. Are these sold through dealers only?

[octagon]

Sorry, I was talking in the spirit of the MHS pistol.

SERVICE pistols... as in .mil or LE service. Surely the lowest level of armorer can handle that.

That is a good question maybe someone in the military can help answer. In our department we used a LE distributor for all FFL transactions and had to send guns in for frame replacement or other processes. The distributor did this as part of our service agreement with them so it wasn't a big deal. I know other agencies have a FFL license for the armorer or agency and can ship that way but all of them have to go through the original manufacturer as far as I know for replacement of a serialized frame if the BATFE designated that that was the firearm. Military may be different as a federal entity. I don't know.

If the frame is not a serialized firearm or in the case of the modular guns then no FFL or licensed person need be involved at all just the end user exchanging the firing assembly into whatever frame they want as it isn't a BATFE controlled part.

[theJanitor]

I'd be all over a modular gun, IF the FCU could be swapped into a rifle chassis.

[john c]

But for service pistos?
Decommission the frame and put a new one, just as fast, easy and cheap. All have (or should have) codebars anyway.

I know this makes no rational sense, but in an agency a $200 repair is okay, but a $200 replacement requires much more justification. At least at my agency. It's just the bureaucratic reality.

Also, it's likely that an arms room has spare parts, but wouldn't have spare frames.


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[octagon]

On the Honor Guard site, I could find neither a complete pistol nor the modular trigger assembly for sale. Are these sold through dealers only?

I believe they are sold only through dealers and distributors. Only one out 4-5 local gun shops have one around me.

[Sal Picante]

It is too late to edit the original post to add this but the Beretta Nano is also a modular handgun. I missed it. Any others?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NMjpAIwbns

Is it a handgun, though, or a brick?

[octagon]

I'd be all over a modular gun, IF the FCU could be swapped into a rifle chassis.

I can see someone doing just that. It may be the original manufacturer of the FCU or the aftermarket like a Roni or similar. I wouldn't mind seeing a light,simple blowback pistol caliber carbine like the KelTec Sub 2000 use one of the modular FCUs in it and then use the handgun magazines like the 21 rounders from Sig P320. I doubt they would do it since it would likely cut into sales of their MPX. The aftermarket may be the ones to take up this cause. The nice thing is if you start with it as a handgun you can swap the FCU back and forth legally(as far as I understand and I am not a lawyer nor is this legal advice.) At least according to this from American Handgunner.


The following information is by no means comprehensive but here are just a few things to remember:

A factory fresh AR lower receiver that has never been part of a firearm can be used to build a pistol, carbine or rifle. If a lower receiver is built into and registered as a pistol first, it can be stripped down and converted into a rifle in the future. If the receiver built into a carbine or rifle first, it must always remain part of a rifle and cannot ever be used to build a pistol.
It's not necessary to use a lower receiver stamped "Pistol" or one that is marked with the specific caliber of ammunition you plan to use when building an AR pistol. The markings are irrelevant just as long as the lower is brand new from the factory at the start of the build. Many companies are marking their lowers "Multi-Cal" these days in order to avoid confusion.
Attaching a shoulder stock to an AR-15 pistol changes its legal status from Handgun to a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR), which is a violation of BAFTE regulations. If you wish to build an SBR, ensure that all of the proper paperwork and tax stamps are in order before attaching a shoulder stock.
Attaching an AR-15 pistol upper assembly with a barrel shorter than 16" to a rifle lower is also considered an SBR and will get you in trouble without the proper tax stamps in place.
Although it's a common practice to attach a vertical grip to the handguards of AR rifles, attaching one to AR pistols changes their legal status from Handgun to Any Other Weapon (AOW), which requires a BAFTE tax stamp like an SBR.
At this point in time, it's legal to own and attach a stabilizing arm brace to an AR pistol, such as the the Sig Sauer SB-15 or the Shockwave Technologies Blade. However, the braces must be used according to their intended design. If you shoulder them like a rifle stock you're going to get in trouble. Theoretically it's OK to "cheek" the braces (rest them along your jaw line), but cheeking looks like shouldering from certain angles. Because of the legal status of the stabilizing arm braces being how they are used, I've opted not to include them in this review.

Full article here. https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/7/14/building-ar-15-pistols-at-home/

[octagon]

And so it begins.........

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/01/strike-industries-make-sig-p320-frames/