Current State of the Shotgun

[Jay Cunningham]

I've been inspired by recent threads here, posts on FB, my own shotgun classes I teach, and several people I know making great stuff for shotguns, to start this thread in the same vein as the AK thread.

The fighting shotgun circa 2017 is a greatly upgraded beast compared to the basic bitch pump gun one can buy at Wal-Mart for $350... not that there's anything wrong with those.

Let's discuss the current state of the art regarding the guns, ammo, accessories, and employment methods.

Are these beasts on the brink of extinction? Or are they entering a new Golden Age?

Please make your context clear when referring to military, LE, PMC, or private security use vs. civilian applications.

:cool:

[MickAK]

Civilian.

I can kill someone good and dead with a shotgun at 5-10 yards.

With extensive training and practice, I could kill someone good and dead with a shotgun at up to 100 yards, although there will be a lot more low percentage shots, and optics take a lot more work.

With a reasonable amount of training, I can kill someone 0-300 yards with a carbine, and optics are simplified. With a little more training and practice, I can kill someone up to 600 yards. Recoil is less, ammo costs are less, training takes less work. I have 30 rounds. I have a lighter weapon, or I could.

A hardened slug could take out a vehicle a little easier, maybe. I find this a little hard to believe, but a lot of people don't work on their own coolant systems, so I guess I can see people thinking radiators are resistant to 5.56 rounds, or that loss of coolant or a cylinder or two would really stop a large vehicle within killing range.

Shotguns make that cool click-click noise. They're good at killing birds. If you have to dispatch a large animal, slugs can be beneficial. All I see.

[Peally]

Civilian. Never been anything other than a fancy niche grenade launcher tool to me ;)

[L-2]

SHOTGUNS
The shotgun is still alive in my LE agency in California. With tight budgets the shotgun is present in every patrol car. Over the years, with suggestions from some of us, we’ve gone from a 20” Mossberg 590A1 w/bead sight (the old ones with the heat shield) to a 14” barrel with sling and ghost ring sights.

Still missing is a weapon-light and a side-saddle but there, at least, are four more slugs available in a Speedfeed-brand stock. We’ve always trained with 00 buck and to transition to slugs as needed.

These shotguns generally stay in the patrol car and not individually issued. We can’t personally buy a 14” barreled shotgun, but can buy an 18.5” or longer which is similar enough for practice and to maintain expertise.

20+ years ago, coming out of the police academy, I didn’t understand the shotgun’s use enough for my taste and took additional training on my own time. Only a few others have done so in my agency as far as I’m aware.

Patrol rifles are available, but severely limited by laws & internal policies.

[Rex G]

Houston PD's Low-Light Shotgun class, scheduled for August, filled-up over two months in advance, so I reckon the shotgun is not yet dead in big-city LE, even though the AR15 is the long weapon most visible at hot scenes. The Tactical Shotgun class I attended at the HPD academy in late May, however, was just three students. I did not think to ask if the early May Tactical Shotgun was also lightly-attended. (Tactical Shotgun is taught much more often than Low-Light Shotgun, the latter being specifically a certification to use a Surefire WeaponLight fore-end.)

HPD approves the 870, and Benelli M1 and M2, for duty use. Authorized ammo is 00 and 4 Buck, and slugs. We buy our own firearms, except for less-lethal and some SWAT weapons. My qual with my 870 is still current, but I added a Benelli M2 in time for the Stupid Bowl, and will probably let my 870 qual lapse. I had prior Benelli experience in the early Nineties, with an HK-era M1 Super 90, which had a narrow, sharp-combed stock that thrashed me without mercy. The current M2 Comfortech stock is wonderful, making me wish I had switched back to Benelli much sooner.

An advantage of the shotgun, where I work, is that rifles are to be removed from the case, or rack, during specified circumstances only, whereas the shotgun, for now, anyway, is in my hands at my discretion. I work night shift patrol, a time when the shotgun makes plenty of good sense as the long gun of choice.

I actually bought a take-off, pre-owned, but like-new Benelli M2 Tactical barrel, with open rifle-type sights, several years ago. I live a short drive from a major firearms dealer, where pre-owned Benelli M2 Field guns are available from time to time. The upcoming 2017 Stupid Bowl LI, and the 2016 terrorist incidents involving vehicles being driven into crowds, prompted me to put up or shut up, so I bought my M2 late last year, pre-owned, and installed the "Tactical" barrel, and a lefty recoil pad.

I will probably become a private citizen again, soon, after 33+, or perhaps 34 years, of LEO-ing. I believe that I will still see the shotgun as my favored defensive weapon, particularly home defense. Away from home, densely-vegetated family land, where trepassers have been a problem, is another environment where the shotgun makes sense.

[Lester Polfus]

Civilian on 6 densely wooded acres adjacent to a National Forest. Bears, cougars and assholes are in abundance in the NF. Sasquatch is a possibility.

I'll see your $350 walmart bitch pump gun and raise you a $230 pawn shop gauge, traded straight across for the cheap ass wedding ring from my ill conceived first marriage.

Its my primary defensive long gun and I dont make any apologies for it.

[LockedBreech]

My brother's agency as well as a neighboring agency went full Colt 6920 5-6 years ago. Only shotguns left are one with each shift sergeant for non lethal and one with tac for breaching.


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[voodoo_man]

Ran 870s back in the day and m590a1 now.

We use federal slug and 00buck. It works exceedingly well at barrier penetration and people stopping at 25y and in.

I have one and practice with one for HD and duty work.

Would highly recommend HiTS shotgun class...

[Cory]

Civilian. Prior mil.

I think the shot gun is still very much alive. At least as alive as it has ever been. Where I grew up big game hunting was only allowed using shotguns. Center fired rifles were not legal for hunting. Little pockets like this still exist in some places, and where they exist the shotgun is not only alive but more than thriving. I would say in those regions where rifles are not legal for hunting shotguns are the dominate long gun of choice for nearly everything.

Because I grew up in a place like that, the majority of my youth was behind a shotgun. My brother, and 2 buddies would regularly go out in the woods with our shotguns to do the things teenage boys in the woods do with shotguns. We would squirrel hunt, turkey hunt, deer hunt, clay shoot, target shoot... all with the same shotguns. I used my father's bolt action Western Field 12gauge for the longest time until I bought my 1187 with two barrels. One for light loads (bead sight) one for heavy loads and slug (scope). Because rifles weren't used for hunting in our area, they weren't really used for much at all. We used our shotguns for hunting, fun shooting, and because they were for the most part all we had they were our home defense guns.

The closest thing to a rifle my family owned growing up was my Mom and Dad's matching 12G slug guns. Marlin bolt action, heavy barrel, rifle sight, slug guns with rifling for sabot slugs. My mom's is still probably the most accurate slug gun I've ever seen. We all knew about rifles, and we all had fired a few. But they were essentially just target guns. Nearly everything that required a gun happened with a shotgun. And none of us ever saw a problem with that. We had our Mossberg 500s, 870s, old Winchesters, and the occasional oddball shotgun. And they all worked. The area now allows rifles for hunting, and most choose it for big game. But it doesn't change the fact the shotgun can still fill all those shoes.

I live states away now, and my local club is nearly entirely a shotgun club. The club is reliant on the revenue of their twice weekly trap and skeet shoots. They also do ATA certified shoots. Tons of people show up to shoot. It isn't just a bunch of older guys either. Young shooters are out there learning and loving the sport. It isn't uncommon to see people patterning a new load when you show up at the range. If you think this means the shotgun is only alive here in KY, than I encourage you to ask anyone at your local range if they own a shotgun. I have my bet on how often the answer is yes.

In a defensive aspect, I think the shotgun is still extremely present. Nothing else is as devastatingly effective at short range as a shotgun. It has the ability to inflict an enormous amount of damage. While in the service as an MP we had a handful of Mossberg's in our armory. Why? Because while the shotgun can fill many other weapon's roles, nothing else can fill a shotgun's. Shotguns are extremely versatile but still retain an ability that is unique to them alone. That's why the military is always going to have shotguns in the armory. For riot control, for breeching, for anything that requires powerhouse performance in short order.

While the AR market has certainly made a dent in the fan fair of the shotgun I think it still neck and neck for the go to gun of many. Especially defensively. The old adage of "just buy a 12 gauge pump" although not always the best idea, is still around. Because for most things it will get it done. And people know it. That's why the 1301 thread is 200 pages long. The AR might have more classes and more innovation for products, but it doesn't mean that it has taken over the shotgun. Shotgun classes are still out there, and while not as explosive as the AR market, innovation is happening. Once again, just take a look at the 1301 thread. The shotgun might not be improving at the rate of other weapons but the fact it is improving is undeniable. 3 inch shells. 3.5 inch shells. Flight control. More diverse ammo selections. New recoil systems. Lighter weights. New furniture options. New ammo carrying options.

Shotguns will always be alive because while they can do it all, nothing can do what they do. They may grow slower at times, and may not be as popular at times. But they will always be viable.

-Cory

[Beat Trash]

I grew up with an 870. My agency still has 870's in each car. But I haven't grabbed a shotgun since the patrol rifle became an option 12 years ago. Our 870's are bone stock 18" guns loaded with Federal flight controlled OO buck. Slugs are not an option. No white lights on the shotgun. Smaller officers who are intimidated by the 870 enjoy shooting the AR's. Setting a perimeter around a building from a position of cover might leave the officer 25-30 + yards from a window or door. Kind of a stretch with a OO Buck loaded shotgun holding 4+1 shells. Not an issue with a 16" AR holding 30 rounds...

Within the next year, we will be at the point where there's a Patrol Rifle in every car. There is discussion of dumping the shotguns at that time. I would have a hard time arguing to keep the shotguns.

I still maintain a couple of 870's at the house. But for me, they're for situations where I might have to worry about something with four legs.

[Chuck Whitlock]

LE/civilian.
My agency issues bare basic 870s (mine's an express) along with our take home rides. No racks installed, and no mods to guns allowed. As I'm a short dude with a barrel chest and t-rex arms, the 14" LOP is a no-go, so it just sits in the trunk.

If I want a guage, I take my rifle-sighted M1S90 w/ Urbino stock, but lately it's been just the AR, mostly due to hauling the long gun(s) in and out of the house each shift. Been wanting a SF foreend, but new ones are no longer available.

I've been following the 1301 thread with great interest.
My other thought is to buy a Mossberg Shockwave, SBS it, and add Magpul furniture/light/XSBD for a work gun.

I have a good stock of Federal LE OO/slugs, but I want to pattern some #1B (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1B) .

[spinmove_]

I agree with a lot that's been said here already. It's versatile, workable, common, and still fills unique roles well.

One thing that hasn't really been said yet though is that cost for a good pump is inexpensive. Out fitting one for HD is also inexpensive. You could spec out 2 or 3 for the price you'd spend for a similarly spec'd out quality AR. Couple that with the fact that it's hard to legislate away a shotgun in today's political and cultural climate and I can see the shotgun sticking around for a while.

My Dad, former .mil, currently civilian, definitely not a gun guy, absolutely and adamantly disagrees with the fact that the AR is a viable HD tool. He insists that he wants to get 1 shotgun that fills the role of HD and sporting clay purposes. While he's not entirely wrong, those of us who know, know that he wants one gun for two entirely different roles. Couple that with the fact that, despite my efforts in educating and presenting good hard facts, still thinks birdshot is the de facto HD ammo. I facepalm extremely hard every time we have the conversation that I'm surprised I don't have a permanent indentation where my face is.


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[blues]

LE / Civilian

Standard 870 Police was a staple on the job for many of our agents. (Carbines and rifles were generally only used by those of us on SRT or working out of the air or marine units with a need for longer range firearms.)

When I retired I wanted a shotgun such as I had carried but "Lou's", the local cop shop, only had the Express at the time so I outfitted it with a Blackhawk swift sling and a +2 extension and called it good. A couple years ago I added a Surefire forend, (which cost as much as the shotgun did back then), and thought it was as gussied up as it needed to be.

While I'd love to own an upgrade, I've always been pretty comfortable with just the bead sight out to 15 yards or more and I don't anticipate taking longer shots by and large. (I will admit that some of the Beretta and Benelli discussion here gets me lusting from time to time.)

For me, while I'd never get rid of my shotgun, it's largely been replaced for home / property defense purposes by the AR...but it is always nearby and ready to be called into duty in short order as required.

I have on hand both standard and reduced recoil rounds in slug and 00 buck, mostly consisting of Federal Flitecontrol and Hornady TAP VersaTite. (Also have some old #4 that was issued back in the day.)

[Cory]

I agree with a lot that's been said here already. It's versatile, workable, common, and still fills unique roles well.

One thing that hasn't really been said yet though is that cost for a good pump is inexpensive. Out fitting one for HD is also inexpensive. You could spec out 2 or 3 for the price you'd spend for a similarly spec'd out quality AR. Couple that with the fact that it's hard to legislate away a shotgun in today's political and cultural climate and I can see the shotgun sticking around for a while.

My Dad, former .mil, currently civilian, definitely not a gun guy, absolutely and adamantly disagrees with the fact that the AR is a viable HD tool. He insists that he wants to get 1 shotgun that fills the role of HD and sporting clay purposes. While he's not entirely wrong, those of us who know, know that he wants one gun for two entirely different roles. Couple that with the fact that, despite my efforts in educating and presenting good hard facts, still thinks birdshot is the de facto HD ammo. I facepalm extremely hard every time we have the conversation that I'm surprised I don't have a permanent indentation where my face is.


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That is another huge reason the shotgun will never die out. It's probably one of the most affordable options there is. My 835 was a Walmart special that cost a whopping $300 brand new. If I went with something slightly different, for a little more I could have an "ideal" HD gun.

The heritage and "classic" view of the shotgun. That makes it pretty hard to legislate away, and at the same time endears the shotgun to a lot of folks. I do wonder how long before a buzzword for the shotgun appears. "High Powered Sniper Rifle" is the buzz for a bolt action rifle, and "Assault Rifle" gets most semiautos, "Saturday Night Special" handguns... or they try to make "Semiautomatic" sound scary for handguns. Shotguns don't have a scary buzz. I wonder if that plays into their longevity.

-Cory

[farscott]

Non-LE and non-MIL here.

Shotguns are just as useful as ever, especially for HD for people on a budget. Summit Gun Broker has used 870P models available for $285 delivered to your FFL. With local FFL fees, one has a perfectly suitable HD gun for less than $350. Is it perfect? No, but it is a lot of tool for the expense invested. Ammo is available at Wal-Mart, big box stores, and LGS.

The big issue I see with shotguns is finding suitable trainers LOCALLY. A lot of the local guys look at shotguns as obsolete hunting tools, preferring the AR, and the resulting training available shows.

[SamAdams]

Civilian/ former Military


Everyone has made some good points. One thing I'll add, is in a political environment that can change rapidly and drastically, having a few of 'the old standbys' is probably a good idea.
I will always keep a service revolver, lever action rifle, wood stocked .30-06 bolt action deer rifle, and wood stocked Rem 870 shotgun for that reason alone. These are obviously hunting guns. An added advantage is that well made older versions of them can be found for modest prices.


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[JAD]

Individual first responder.

My gunfight will probably be away from
Home, and will be with my pistol. If my gunfight is at home, and I'm awake, it will be with my pistol. If I have time to go get a more effective weapon, I probably have time to avoid a gunfight.

So my long guns are only for when my home is breached and I'm asleep. A home breaching will probably require engagement of one to three opponents. I am comfortable with the idea of engaging three opponents with the six rounds in my shotgun, and I'm very sure that inside my house one round from my shotgun is >> more effective than one round from my carbines. I would prefer to resolve engagements with as few rounds discharged as possible. I would therefore prefer to fill the very low percentage role of awakened home defense with a shotgun. However, because it is so low percentage, and securing firearms in a house with native and visiting children is distinctly non trivial, I just rely on my pistol for all roles, and endeavor to have it available all times.

[OlongJohnson]

That is another huge reason the shotgun will never die out. It's probably one of the most affordable options there is. My 835 was a Walmart special that cost a whopping $300 brand new. If I went with something slightly different, for a little more I could have an "ideal" HD gun.

The heritage and "classic" view of the shotgun. That makes it pretty hard to legislate away, and at the same time endears the shotgun to a lot of folks. I do wonder how long before a buzzword for the shotgun appears. "High Powered Sniper Rifle" is the buzz for a bolt action rifle, and "Assault Rifle" gets most semiautos, "Saturday Night Special" handguns... or they try to make "Semiautomatic" sound scary for handguns. Shotguns don't have a scary buzz. I wonder if that plays into their longevity.

-Cory

Here you go: http://summitgunbroker.com/riot-guns.html

[45dotACP]

Civvie here...yeah shotguns are cheap, a powerful fight stopper, extremely vesatile, and a good option...

....But not for a shooter on a budget. A pump gun needs LOTS of training and practice to run effectively for SD purposes...recoil is heavy, reloads are tricky, most people think birdshot is good for SD...and good defensive ammo is actually pretty pricey.

A pump action 12 gauge is a good choice, but I view it like a 1911 or a .44 N frame. It's a gun of a bygone era that requires dedication to be effective...but when applied in a dedicated fashion...is devastatingly effective.

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[ssb]

I use a shotgun because I'm convinced that for my application (inside the home at distances not exceeding 10 yards) it's absolutely the most lethal tool I can employ. I don't have kids to worry about and it gets secured before I leave for work.

I have Federal Flitecontrol and Remington LE 8-pellet low recoil stuff at my disposal. I actually use the Remington over the Federal due to the slightly wider pattern (approx. 4-5" at 7yds vs. FC being basically a slug) and the lead, unplated shot. While the Flitecontrol stuff is cool, I think the tendency towards getting the tightest possible pattern negates one of the advantages of the shotgun: the increased hit probability. From my own observation and statements of people like Chuck Haggard and Steve Fisher, I'm convinced unplated lead shot is just a tad bit safer in the penetration department (I've personally seen it stopped by siding), especially in the low recoil format.

I think a bead sight is fine for my use. Eventually I'll get around to drilling and tapping my receiver to accept an Aimpoint Micro.

I currently use an 870P with Surefire forend, 4-shot tube, Wolff spring, Vang Comp follower and safety, and a Magpul stock. For the moment ammo is carried in a butt cuff on the stock -- still experimenting with options for that.

[SeriousStudent]

Former military, now happily a civilian suburban homeowner.

I have always viewed shotguns the way I viewed mortars whilst in the military.

They are large, heavy, and a beyotch to tote around at times. The ammo must be handled manually, and there are not many efficient ways to lug that ammo, either.

But, however, comma, just like mortars, when employed in their normal scope of usage by a skilled operator, they are devastatingly effective.

I've got over a dozen AR's, and my primary home defense gun is a BCM middy which has been ever so faithful. But if I had to repel boarders with one of my five defensive shotguns, I feel I could do so.

[spinmove_]

....But not for a shooter on a budget. A pump gun needs LOTS of training and practice to run effectively for SD purposes...recoil is heavy, reloads are tricky, most people think birdshot is good for SD...and good defensive ammo is actually pretty pricey.

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Yup, by and large, I'd rather have an AR too. However, some people are dead set on shotgun/bird shot for HD. Those people need to be taken to a good class so they can learn to run one. Then hopefully they'll have the first hand epiphany of how much that Recoil batters you, how much the reloads can wind up bad quick, and see some reports of how people hit with birdshot are just dandy and keep truckin'. Then maybe they'll wonder if there really is a lighter recoiling and higher capacity alternative that would be easier to handle...


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[Bigghoss]

Federal Security/civ

I wish the 20 gauge would get more attention than it does. It seems to be gaining some traction but not much.

I have a few shotguns. My main is a Mossberg 500 that I swapped a 590a1 front end on and now it wears Magpul furniture. One day I'll probably relegate it to training/practice status in favor of a regular 590 with the standard weight barrel. Those 590a1 barrels are heavy. The Magpul stuff is the tits, love it. Looks cool, feels good, LOP is adjustable (even at 6' 2" tall a 14" LOP is too damn long. Why do they even make stocks that long?) reasonably priced, and it's easy to mount a light too with out acting like a cheese grater to your hands. I like the Mossbergs the controls are just in a more natural place to me so long as you don't want to use stock with a PG.

At work we have M500's that some dumbass decided would be good to have AR-style collapsing stocks and PG's, I think they're Knoxx. Our less-lethal guns are more M500's with similar type stocks but they're the dirt-cheapest pieces of shit I've ever had the misfortune of touching and whoever is responsible for making those things should be thrown in prison and passed around for cigarettes. I've brought up several times that with those stocks you can't reach the controls but nobody listens. Luckily I have an M4 issued to me so I probably won't have to use one.

[BehindBlueI's]

A pump gun needs LOTS of training and practice to run effectively for SD purposes...recoil is heavy, reloads are tricky

I disagree. Not that recoil is heavy, it is. Or that reloads are tricky. They are. What I disagree with is you need to be very good for SD purposes. Reloading is a big skill for games and something of a skill for timmy, but show me a home invasion that required a shotgun to be reloaded to resolve. I've yet to have someone lose against a home invader who discharged a shotgun. I've seen them lose when the gun was taken from them, when they couldn't get the trigger lock off, but every single person who's fired the shotgun won either by incapacitating or causing the flight of the suspect(s).

The physical and psychological affect of the shotgun blast at close range has won the day every time. Personally, I suspect the sheer level of noise and muzzle blast are tough to stand up to mentally, and the physical damage from decent buckshot is tough to argue with. I will also say the same is true of ARs, though, and the AR is easier to use as well. It's arguable if it's easier to maintain for the "stick in the closet and hope you never need it crowd". Pump guns don't care if they are completely dry of lube. They are reliable at a much lower price point than a quality AR (although that gap has closed lately). Long guns are just easier to use in general and don't require the same level of proficiency as handguns to be effective with.

[TC215]

I see most of our people now, especially the younger ones, jumping out on calls with AR's, since just about everyone has one now.

We were all issued new 14" 870's in 2010. Those of us on SWAT got rifle sights, the rest had bead sights, since, you know, only SWAT needs rifle sights.

We still use them on SWAT some, and I will carry mine sometimes when clearing a house. I don't see many people grabbing them outside of SWAT.

We did have a fatal OIS where the officer used an 870 years ago (00 buck). It was very effective.

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[Trukinjp13]

Not much for science and what not. But last time I checked,

9 .33 caliber pellets> 1 .223

I am actually looking into possibly selling my 590a1 to get a 1301 for hd. My ar-15 is fun to shoot groundhogs and coons. But if I am protecting my home or putting food on the table it is with the 12g.


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[SamAdams]

I'm not LE, and never have been. - - Aren't there plenty of situations in an urban environment where buckshot at close in ranges is more desirable than sending rifle rounds down range ? Seems like the shotgun would still fill a role. Perhaps the LE guys can comment.


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[BN]

Civilian/reserve LE.

Ohio has been shotguns with slugs only for deer for decades. They recently added straight walled rifle cartridges. Still lots of shotguns around.

For me, beside the bed is a Russian double barrel coach gun with some buck in the butt cuff and in the closet, an 870 with buck and slugs mixed in the butt cuff and shell belt. I keep my long guns empty with ammo on the gun. I am more likely to need something for 4 legged pests than anything else.

[Jay Cunningham]

I disagree. Not that recoil is heavy, it is. Or that reloads are tricky. They are. What I disagree with is you need to be very good for SD purposes. Reloading is a big skill for games and something of a skill for timmy, but show me a home invasion that required a shotgun to be reloaded to resolve. I've yet to have someone lose against a home invader who discharged a shotgun. I've seen them lose when the gun was taken from them, when they couldn't get the trigger lock off, but every single person who's fired the shotgun won either by incapacitating or causing the flight of the suspect(s).

The physical and psychological affect of the shotgun blast at close range has won the day every time. Personally, I suspect the sheer level of noise and muzzle blast are tough to stand up to mentally, and the physical damage from decent buckshot is tough to argue with. I will also say the same is true of ARs, though, and the AR is easier to use as well. It's arguable if it's easier to maintain for the "stick in the closet and hope you never need it crowd". Pump guns don't care if they are completely dry of lube. They are reliable at a much lower price point than a quality AR (although that gap has closed lately). Long guns are just easier to use in general and don't require the same level of proficiency as handguns to be effective with.

Great perspective - mancrush material!

[Jay Cunningham]

I see most of our people now, especially the younger ones, jumping out on calls with AR's, since just about everyone has one now.

We were all issued new 14" 870's in 2010. Those of us on SWAT got rifle sights, the rest had bead sights, since, you know, only SWAT needs rifle sights.

We still use them on SWAT some, and I will carry mine sometimes when clearing a house. I don't see many people grabbing them outside of SWAT.

We did have a fatal OIS where the officer used an 870 years ago (00 buck). It was very effective.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/apKnUFwbxnPPkDYjtuvHx6VV9TWt3pgrsDlsrNHCXbcglWXFjq p8DodP7doXvBDrOkRyc3OBDhfWrbWJ9zSICvGwuDXaigokQM2j Qw-ibjrPvY34sPfCE_xdetSHRvKTutl1niIu65nNI7bKK_iw4Lqn6 4aav3m8kqb02XxadjCbpJJxToYr9lP1elUApLnmRIkM0gpDIoW qe8kuIQQ1oCR1ixyCR-RN67AOfdFzNK33jzH6pX1ToYOqoyD9jw0-5_Ow0JvtOnrqRrmhV5gWeFyrGpKPUf4DYRfeSY076ViRoNA0Vz G6JMFuGZPQJRYD-WIbJqgvNBGRta1B4xFuK2OPumd8BCHWqZUkgZ3A0lhF5gqTxsp NG_scM-hIfeLfNxPRIppVrUTSvmkQ75gJ7Ru4Br4I0WsTDluJyteluZjd X2hGwV9x0TUP7lvF5kjzNdvUSxbrWTSB5xehYiN5vpbN9EWpw5 _QHnxAFtXoPYFTv6zBdpyLISVs4RS_HfLlmdqEOabNqN7DMyRg BqZWzJZFhWMD1gZhFj-7A7dxZ1O5d_jp8euxLvBxKhVFxm-oGraOa9hVTwmTgbuh0V0tWbjPUCXinz6nusYpGsBZR_JrEEy4= w836-h626-no

A 14" 870 with rifle sights...

[NickS]

FWIW...I had several Remmy 870s and I've sold them all and moved over to the Mossberg 590A1 shotgun.

Could not be happier with my decision. YMMV

I like the build quality.
I like the safety.
I like the way it operates.
I got the Magpul edition and bought an extended mag tube for it.

LOVE me this Mossberg.

Plus, frankly, I've come to despise Remington/Freedom Group and DO NOT TRUST THEM

[Jay Cunningham]

I love the Mossberg safety on a straight stock shotgun. I just wish I could have a Rem 870 Police Magnum underneath it.

[Bergeron]

Civilian.

I have a shotgun for clays, a shotgun for hunting, and a shotgun for 3-gun/competition.

I live in an urban area, inside an apartment, and uses a Glock for home defense and for carry.

I've seriously considered using the competition shotgun for defensive purposes. I agree that reloads and capacity are not large concerns, and that optics and lights are important. I would like an SBS, but I'm happy enough with my current situation that I would seek out an SBR PCC for recreational purposes as a higher priority than the SBS.

I do wonder how widespread adoption of full-brass shells and magazine fed SBS gun would change the game.

[Bigghoss]

I disagree. Not that recoil is heavy, it is. Or that reloads are tricky. They are. What I disagree with is you need to be very good for SD purposes. Reloading is a big skill for games and something of a skill for timmy, but show me a home invasion that required a shotgun to be reloaded to resolve. I've yet to have someone lose against a home invader who discharged a shotgun. I've seen them lose when the gun was taken from them, when they couldn't get the trigger lock off, but every single person who's fired the shotgun won either by incapacitating or causing the flight of the suspect(s).

The physical and psychological affect of the shotgun blast at close range has won the day every time. Personally, I suspect the sheer level of noise and muzzle blast are tough to stand up to mentally, and the physical damage from decent buckshot is tough to argue with. I will also say the same is true of ARs, though, and the AR is easier to use as well. It's arguable if it's easier to maintain for the "stick in the closet and hope you never need it crowd". Pump guns don't care if they are completely dry of lube. They are reliable at a much lower price point than a quality AR (although that gap has closed lately). Long guns are just easier to use in general and don't require the same level of proficiency as handguns to be effective with.

I have personally found my pump shotgun to be easier to learn than I expected and is often touted. One still needs to learn it and practice regularly, but if you get the right length stock running it isn't all that hard.

[Jay Cunningham]

What kind of data is available on gunfights involving good guys using shotguns?

[Hambo]

I grew up where shotguns were used for everything. Bird hunting-shotgun. Deer hunting-shotgun with slugs was only legal method. Home defense-shotgun. With that background I have what many might see as an irrational love for shotguns. I currently have...well, several...pumps, semiautos, and even a double in 12, 16, and 20ga.

That said I don't think a lot has changed from when you could buy a double, Auto-5, Model 12, or Model 1897 at the hardware store. Sure, you can play Barbie with stocks and hang a lot of weight increasing stuff on them, but shotguns are still shotguns. The biggest changes are choke tubes (My name is Hambo and I'm a choke tube addict), rifled barrels (not really new tech), and ammunition. Wad technology makes better patterning shot shells and Brenneke slugs changed the game from the Fosters I hunted with as a kid.

[mtnbkr]

Civilian user here. No mil or leo background at all.

I standardized on the shotgun for several reasons:
1. I had an 870 that was otherwise unused and no AR at the time, so I rebuilt it into an HD gun (18" barrel, side-saddle ammo carrier, Magpul furniture, light, etc).
2. The blast and concussion of the 12g is less than that of the AR223. IMO, this will be better for me and my family in an HD shooting.
3. I live in a 3 story townhouse (think saltine box on end). The bedrooms are on the top floor, the entrance is the bottom floor, and the main living space is the middle floor (den, kitchen, etc). The absolutely longest shooting distance would be 15yds, but mostly less than 10yds. From any of the bedroom doors, I can cover the stairwell and prevent others from coming up to the top floor. From nearly any vantage point on the 2nd floor, I can prevent someone from entering that space from above or below.
4. I live in a fairly dense suburban area.
5. I've seen the effect of buckshot and slugs on large game. As pointed out in another thread, slugs are immediately incapacitating, but rifle projectiles, even when placed properly, don't always stop immediately.
6. I've owned this 870 for nearly 20 years and used it for hunting and clay games before remaking it as an HD gun. I'm comfortable with it's operation and reliability and don't find the AR "easier" to manipulate.

FWIW, I have an AR as well, but treat it more like a "toy" and experiment with it (adjustable gas block, lightweight BCG, etc). While it is 100% reliable so far, I wouldn't trust it for HD purposes yet. If I had a proven AR and no shotgun, I probably wouldn't go out and buy a shotgun for HD, but given both tools and budget to set up both properly, I think I'd still land on the shotgun for this particular use.

Chris

[BillSWPA]

I'm not LE, and never have been. - - Aren't there plenty of situations in an urban environment where buckshot at close in ranges is more desirable than sending rifle rounds down range ? Seems like the shotgun would still fill a role. Perhaps the LE guys can comment.


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My understanding is that .223 penetrates fewer interior walls than buckshot. One could also argue that a miss with a single projectile is less dangerous than a miss with 9 projectiles.

States which require using a shotgun for hunting base this in the theory that a shotgun projectile will not travel as far as one launched from a rifle. Although such incidents are not common, there have been incidents of slugs traveling quite some distance before hitting a house.

Regarding "buzz words" in another thread, I have rarely seen the word "shotgun" in the news without the words "sawed off" in front of it, although the vast majority of shotguns discussed were too long to meet the definition of a sawed off shotgun.



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[spinmove_]

I found this clip rather interesting and informative.

https://youtu.be/PrGL8wexJdA


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[Lyonsgrid]

In my experience the LE shotgun is falling out of favor. The simple fact is the carbine gets the most training time and it's use is highly encouraged by our division Primary Firearm Instructors (PFIs). I can't recall a single time in the last two years seeing a shotgun deployed on an operation. The shotgun has it's place still but the culture in my agency keeps them locked away and rarely seen. In fact, at our last quarterly firearms training, not a single SA or TFO shot the shotgun qualification course (SQC) and most don't keep a current semiannual qualification score. Also, the newer (2014) SQC is the most difficult course of fire and I've seen many guys and gals struggle to pass.

[SamAdams]

My understanding is that .223 penetrates fewer interior walls than buckshot. One could also argue that a miss with a single projectile is less dangerous than a miss with 9 projectiles.

States which require using a shotgun for hunting base this in the theory that a shotgun projectile will not travel as far as one launched from a rifle. Although such incidents are not common, there have been incidents of slugs traveling quite some distance before hitting a house.

Regarding "buzz words" in another thread, I have rarely seen the word "shotgun" in the news without the words "sawed off" in front of it, although the vast majority of shotguns discussed were too long to meet the definition of a sawed off shotgun.



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Round balls aren't particularly aerodynamic. They shed velocity more quickly than pointy bullets. I read about 5.56 versus buckshot within a building and its likelihood to penetrate interior walls. But I wonder if there might be applications where the more limited range of a shotgun would be desirable. - Not arguing either way; I have no idea if the shotgun is obsolete in police work or not.


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[deputyG23]

LE here,
Our work still (barely) issues 870Ps to civil process and a couple of the prisoner transport folks. A previous commander removed the two shotguns from the prisoner transport bus and most of the transportation deputies some years ago and I am attempting to convince the command staff to put at least one back on the bus and to get all of the transport staff shotgun qualified and issue them out again. No rifles owned or authorized for duty. I brought the subject up during a staff meeting a few weeks ago and the conversation leaned toward reinstating them for transport staff and taking the shotties away from the civil process deputies. I frankly was a little shell shocked by the comment and the Training Captain jumped in and gave a brief general statement about why Civil still needed long guns. I need to write a detailed justification on why they should be kept, or even (gasp) supplemented with at least a few rifle certified people.
My HD long gun is an old Winchester 1200 riot gun from the 60's that lives under the blanket chest at the foot of the bed. This old girl is slicker than snot on a doorknob. Less noise if fired indoors and more oomph per trigger pull than my one 20" Colt AR that stays locked up.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I'm a civilian.

I've trained extensively with a shotgun, and used it as my primary weapon while working as a (wait for it) shotgun rider in armored trucks from 96-05.

Now, in my mid career dental practice, I keep a shotgun handy at the office for emergency use, loaded with slugs. In addition to possible human threats, we have black bears which wander close to the office and get nosy in the dumpsters. If I used it for self defense from humans, I'd be wary of my backstop and angle appropriately.

Although I'm a tall guy, I too don't like the 14" LOP, so I use either the Magpul stock, the Hogue short stock, or the wood OEM professionally trimmed to 12" LOP. That really changes the handling properties of the 18" barreled guns.

I use birdshot for training, but since I don't really hunt (don't have time) I will admit that my experience with birdshot is limited to shooting pheasants. Like DocGKR I've also treated birdshot wounds to the face and jaws, and while they're a challenge for the surgeon, they were effectively an inconvenience for the offender. Maybe if their eyes were hit, it would be more effective, but I've yet to see that.

I use Federal FC OO for my household gun, and Tru-ball or Brenneke slugs for the slug guns. My slug guns have ghost ring aperature sights, and my buckshot guns have barrel mount beads or pedestal beads. Of the two, I prefer the barrel mounts because I like the lack of offset for closer ranges. Not a huge deal but if you compare the two there is a metric there that should be noted. I put slings on mine, but more for administrative carry, than, "slinging up," for operational use. If I had to help a guy lift bags/load pallets of money into the truck, being able to go hands free is useful. I used to CRINGE at the guys who would lean the gun on the truck bumper or wheel well, whilst loading. I saw one gun get run over because of that. Let alone the fact that it advertises to the bad guys that you aren't prepared.

I have a light and a sling on my HD gun. The sling is all bungee, and was originally an old school bungee breaching sling. It stays out of the way, and doesn't impede access to the loading gate or the ejection port. The SF light is heavy, and in my HD capacity, it is setup for static defense in the safe room with a clear backstop.

Tom Givens says words to the effect that, "The 12 gauge shotgun is the most potent weapon the civilian has in their arsenal," and I tend to agree.

Before I had an AR (child of the AW Ban) I used to think they were the holy Grail. In my medical career, I saw a number of people headshot/body shot with 556, in what would otherwise be lethal locations, but they lacked the penetration necessary to cause death or immediate incapacitation. Anecdotal, you bet. But it made me think critically about the 556 in particular, and when I had the option to use one instead of the 12 gauge at work, I always opted for the 12.

For the civilian context, which boils down to three missions for me, 1. Counter robbery for business defense. 2. Saferoom defense for home invasion. 3. Bear defense at the office.

For those tasks, I feel quite confident and prepared with the shotgun. Your tasks may vary.


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[SamAdams]

In my experience the LE shotgun is falling out of favor. The simple fact is the carbine gets the most training time and it's use is highly encouraged by our division Primary Firearm Instructors (PFIs). I can't recall a single time in the last two years seeing a shotgun deployed on an operation. The shotgun has it's place still but the culture in my agency keeps them locked away and rarely seen. In fact, at our last quarterly firearms training, not a single SA or TFO shot the shotgun qualification course (SQC) and most don't keep a current semiannual qualification score. Also, the newer (2014) SQC is the most difficult course of fire and I've seen many guys and gals struggle to pass.

Do you think recoil is the primary reason for the difficulty some people have ?

I'm not particularly recoil sensitive. The recoil from a 3 1/2" Magnum 12 gauge heavy turkey load will get your attention. (I read somewhere that its equivalent in the typical weight shotgun used, to firing a 458 Winchester rifle. But then again, you don't fire a bunch of turkey loads in one session.) You can fire a lot of magnum loads while goose hunting though (not as hard kicking as turkey loads). --- I'm just curious how shotgun recoil may effect people's effectiveness.


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[TGS]

With the rise of vehicles being used as a primary weapon during a terrorist attack, I think it's short sighted for law enforcement agencies to ditch shotguns in an effort to go 100% with 5.56 carbines. The latter is essentially the answer for yesterday's threat, when cops were carrying shotguns and found themselves outgunned against dismounts....

In my mind, an effective visible deterrent team or group of first responders would have a mix of shotguns with Federal Truball Deep Penetrator to handle vehicle shots, and M4s with a bonded JSP for dismounts with some modicum of capability for vehicle barriers. Save the 00 and #4 buck for entries and rural cops that dispatch thin skinned animals. Soft Foster slugs designed in the 1930s for hunting deer have no purpose in LE outside of specific niche uses, IMO.

A VIPR, Hercules team, etc without hardened-slug shotguns have a serious capability gap given their mission.....in my opinion. In a perfect world with an effective "arms room" theory TO&E, an officer in a patrol car would have both a shotgun and AR15 at the ready. Likewise, vehicle check points at critical infrastructure facilities and whatnot should have a shotgun with hardened slugs if belt-fed weapons are inappropriate/unavailable.

As for civilians, the Blunderbuss is the every-man's gun and has no reason to go away. With a single inexpensive shotgun, you can have a slug gun accurate to 100 yards (adequate for hunting in most of the US), a bird gun, a trap/skeet sporting gun, and a very capable short range home-defense weapon in case of home invasion or civil unrest.

[Beat Trash]

I'm a civilian.

I've trained extensively with a shotgun, and used it as my primary weapon while working as a (wait for it) shotgun rider in armored trucks from 96-05.

For the civilian context, which boils down to three missions for me, 1. Counter robbery for business defense. 2. Saferoom defense for home invasion. 3. Bear defense at the office.

For those tasks, I feel quite confident and prepared with the shotgun. Your tasks may vary.


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As I read through Sherman A. House's post, the first thought that occurred to me was, "the mission drives the gear train". He has trained with the shotgun. And for his needs, especially when factoring in Black Bears, the shotgun makes a lot of sense.

I still cringe when I hear people lecture to me about how the sound of a pump shotgun will scare off an intruder. These same people have never been faced with an actual critical incident. Apparently the criminals in their neighborhood are little bitches. Not the case where I've lived and worked my entire life.

Many uneducated people think that there's noting to running a pump shotgun. It's easy to believe that, unit you've been around someone who can run a pump. But it's a perishable skill set that requires work to maintain. There was a time, 15-20 years ago, when I could shoot an 870 at the same speed as a Remington 1100. Now, with little maintenance training on the 870, I'm not even close.

I still maintain that for my professional needs, the Patrol Rifle brings much more to the table than the pump shotgun. But I think it's important to first determine what the needs are, then look for the appropriate tool for the job. Dr. House did an excellent job of describing his "mission" into three categories. Were I in a similar position, a shotgun makes a lot of sense.

It kind of makes me want to start reading through some of the threads on the Beretta 1301...

[Sherman A. House DDS]

As I read through Sherman A. House's post, the first thought that occurred to me was, "the mission drives the gear train". He has trained with the shotgun. And for his needs, especially when factoring in Black Bears, the shotgun makes a lot of sense.

I still cringe when I hear people lecture to me about how the sound of a pump shotgun will scare off an intruder. These same people have never been faced with an actual critical incident. Apparently the criminals in their neighborhood are little bitches. Not the case where I've lived and worked my entire life.

Many uneducated people think that there's noting to running a pump shotgun. It's easy to believe that, unit you've been around someone who can run a pump. But it's a perishable skill set that requires work to maintain. There was a time, 15-20 years ago, when I could shoot an 870 at the same speed as a Remington 1100. Now, with little maintenance training on the 870, I'm not even close.

I still maintain that for my professional needs, the Patrol Rifle brings much more to the table than the pump shotgun. But I think it's important to first determine what the needs are, then look for the appropriate tool for the job. Dr. House did an excellent job of describing his "mission" into three categories. Were I in a similar position, a shotgun makes a lot of sense.

It kind of makes me want to start reading through some of the threads on the Beretta 1301...

Thank you Sir. And I echo your sentiments on the 1301. At this point though, getting three of them (one home, one office and one for training) is so much infrastructure that it's really a turn off, mentally. Maybe, I'll procure one and run it through some classes to see if the juice is really worth the squeeze, but for now, I can't bring my Hebrew sensibilities to bear on the finances of the problem. If used Wingmasters and the 1301 were comparable in price, maybe. But now I'm such a neat freak it would be difficult to make the gear switch. Silly, I know.


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[Lyonsgrid]

Do you think recoil is the primary reason for the difficulty some people have ?

Yes, recoil matters...especially with the shotgun.
Watching someone fire slugs from the prone position with a poorly placed stock position will quickly show who needs more training.

[SamAdams]

Yes, recoil matters...especially with the shotgun.
Watching someone fire slugs from the prone position with a poorly placed stock position will quickly show who needs more training.

That can definitely loosen a few fillings.

Lots of fun sighting in a scoped deer slug gun or 3 1/2" mag turkey gun


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[blues]

but for now, I can't bring my Hebrew sensibilities to bear on the finances of the problem. If used Wingmasters and the 1301 were comparable in price, maybe.

And here I thought the desert people were finally getting a break due to the Scots' sensibilities. :p

[Duces Tecum]

Civilian. Prior Mil.

Not being frivolous at all, I view defensive shottys as what a pistol wants to be when it grows up.

A decent test would be to shoot the same course of fire with both shotgun and pistol, with the stipulations that maximum distance would be 100 yards and no aerial targets. The first because (for urban dwellers, as so many of us are) it would be really hard to explain to Judge Judy why that guy a football field away was an immediate threat. The second because aerial targets, in a defensive situation, are unlikely (but as drones become increasingly adept, I may have to reconsider that).

[Sherman A. House DDS]

And here I thought the desert people were finally getting a break due to the Scots' sensibilities. :p

Sallie Mae has me in a perpetual headlock. "Freed Money," not attached to a debt or savings/investment, gets rolled into my debt snowball.


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[Lon]

Do you think recoil is the primary reason for the difficulty some people have ?


From an LE perspective, it's a combination of factors. First, not much time is spent on the shotgun in the basic academy. At least the ones I'm familiar with. Even the one I teach at. I'm not happy about it but I'm not the HMFIC. There's 60 hours spent at the range. Most of that is spent on their pistol. Second, stock shotguns aren't set up for most officers to shoot well because of their long LOP. So students and officers stuggle with them. How proficient are you going to be with only 8-10 hours of training? Third, most LE instructors I know are more of a Range Officer or State Qualification Officer vs. a true instructor. So they (students) aren't getting great instruction on the shotgun.

Add all that together with the perceived cool guy factor of the AR and you end up with a weapon that most officers don't want to use.

[Lester Polfus]

When it comes to the collective tactical wisdom of the internet, I'm as wrong as two boy monkeys eyeing each other coyly from either end of the football bat they each holding an end of.

First, it's a Mossberg. First, on every other firearm I've done serious work with, my index finger was the bang finger, and the thumb was the digit I used to turn the safety on and off. Second, it was the best deal in the pawn shop.

Then there's the barrel. It's 20". If the state of Washington would deign to let me put a 14" barrel on this thing, I would in a heart beat, but otherwise I don't feel like there's a huge difference between 18.5" and 20". I use this barrel because it has a vent rib, which I get better hits with, and even worse, screw in choke tubes which EVERYBODY knows will get you killed on the streets. With a full choke, I get palm sized groups out to 18 yards with Remington Express 00 buckshot, and good accuracy with Remington Express 1oz slugs.

Remington Express? That's right. Longer ago than I'd care to admit, and before I knew any better. I bought 500 rounds of Remington Express 00 buckshot, and 250 rounds of Remington Express 1 oz slugs. People who know what they are talking about can articulate observable advantages to Flite control, Tru Ball, and Brennekes and since I'm about down to the last of my buck and slugs, when I replenish it will be with better ammo. But I'm pretty sure that at any point in the last 10 years, if I had needed to make a Bad Thing go away with my Pabst Blue Ribbon equivalent of the shotgun ammo world, it would have worked.

I don't have a side saddle ammo carrier. I don't like the way the gun handles with one and in my youthful days as a police officer, I rammed a side saddle into the door frame of a trailer home hard enough to break it. I use a no-name, nylon pouch with a zipper on the butt stock to carry four extra buck and two slugs. I do all my ammo manipulation with my strong hand, as this keeps commonality with a bolt action and lever action rifle.

I actually had occasion to point this shotgun at a guy who 1) was in my garage uninvited and unannounced and 2) frightened my wife. It worked pretty good at making him go away. I even smoothly and quickly executed a select slug as he backed down the driveway and went into the "C Zone," despite the fact that the internet tells you that's impossible with a Mossberg.

[Lester Polfus]

Sallie Mae has me in a perpetual headlock. "Freed Money," not attached to a debt or savings/investment, gets rolled into my debt snowball.


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Not to brag, but at my income level, I could own a few 1301's myself, but we are doing the exact same thing with extra money. Very high on my list of "keeping my family safe" is getting our expenses/debt down to the point where we could pay the property taxes by flipping burgers and picking up cans out of ditches, and having very few other expenses.

[David S.]

Dagga Boy I believe he said it's a heavy long gun suitable for typical handgun ranges outside a couple yards. 3-25 yards, IIRC. Inside that, the handgun is better. Carbines and rifles better outside that range.

I keep an 870 (loaded with FC 00) and my CC handgun near the bed at night. Handgun for the routine bump-in-the-night. Shorty for when it gets real.

[45dotACP]

Sallie Mae has me in a perpetual headlock. "Freed Money," not attached to a debt or savings/investment, gets rolled into my debt snowball.


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Lol "medical field" they said. "Good money" they said.

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[blues]

Lol "medical field" they said. "Good money" they said.

17766

"...I want to say one word to you. Just one word: Plastics."

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Lol "medical field" they said. "Good money" they said.

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I'm not complaining, but I'd be lying if I said that I do think about the, "WHAT IF," of staying in the fire/EMS service and moonlighting on the bread trucks. I enjoyed that life. Plus, most of my academy/peer cohort is within five years of 25 years of retirement now, which is a slap in the face. I don't know if I'll ever retire.


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[Lester Polfus]

Civilian. Prior Mil.

Not being frivolous at all, I view defensive shottys as what a pistol wants to be when it grows up.



That's exactly how I look at it. It's an awesome long gun at ranges that would be appropriate for a pistol, and then maybe a little bit more. Even though I've got a fair sized piece of property, from inside or immediately adjacent to my house, the longest shot you can take is 57 yards. If I get out of the boat (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/01/he-got-out-of-boat.html), I can get to a little over 80 along the driveway.

If I lived on a hilltop in Montana, might have a different answer.

[ssb]

On storage of the shotgun:

I store mine "cruiser ready:" full tube, empty chamber with hammer down. I also keep the manual safety engaged (Vang Comp -- easy to sweep off as I get on the trigger) because unsafed long guns plus stress makes me a little nervous My reasoning is that the gun is not drop safe and when I'm home it's leaned against something. This requires me to rack the gun in order to get it into action, so my move is to immediately rack it upon retrieval.

Am I on the right track with this, or is there a better way?

[Lester Polfus]

On storage of the shotgun:

I store mine "cruiser ready:" full tube, empty chamber with hammer down. I also keep the manual safety engaged (Vang Comp -- easy to sweep off as I get on the trigger) because unsafed long guns plus stress makes me a little nervous My reasoning is that the gun is not drop safe and when I'm home it's leaned against something. This requires me to rack the gun in order to get it into action, so my move is to immediately rack it upon retrieval.

Am I on the right track with this, or is there a better way?

That's exactly how I keep mine.

[farscott]

While I have not trained extensively with the 870 (been to two classes in the last decade), I spend a fair amount of time shooting 870 shotguns. I have and get a lot more time behind the 870 than I do behind an AR. Most of that 870 shooting is informal skeet and/or trap, and some is a bit of hunting. Both keep the skills sharp(er), even if the ammo is not a full-power load. As such, I am more comfortable with the 870 even if the AR is a better tool.

I store mine with a loaded tube, chamber empty, hammer cocked, and safety ON. I do not want the action opening unless I press the action bar release.

[SamAdams]

On storage of the shotgun:

This requires me to rack the gun in order to get it into action, so my move is to immediately rack it upon retrieval.

Am I on the right track with this, or is there a better way?

Obviously you don't aspire to be a movie actor. If so, you would wait to rack the slide - up close to your face - in front of the bad guy at the most dramatic moment. He runs off, intimidated by the racking sound. Or you plug him and he flys back 10 feet from the impact of the shotgun blast.

[Lester Polfus]

While I have not trained extensively with the 870 (been to two classes in the last decade), I spend a fair amount of time shooting 870 shotguns. I have and get a lot more time behind the 870 than I do behind an AR. Most of that 870 shooting is informal skeet and/or trap, and some is a bit of hunting. Both keep the skills sharp(er), even if the ammo is not a full-power load. As such, I am more comfortable with the 870 even if the AR is a better tool.

I store mine with a loaded tube, chamber empty, hammer cocked, and safety ON. I do not want the action opening unless I press the action bar release.

This is the sort of thing we could have a long, epic p-f thread arguing, but I'd posit that either "cruiser ready," (ie loaded mag/empty chamber/hammer down/safety on) or the way you are storing yours are equally useful. I'd just make sure to do it the same way every time.

The way you keep yours, with the action locked, is useful because some guns are loose enough to rattle open if they are stored in the trunk of a moving car. My favorite guage when I worked the road was a 14" gun with very little finish left, and a silky aciton. If I left it in a soft case in the back of the car I'd some times find it back there with the action halfway worked open.

[BehindBlueI's]

On storage of the shotgun:

I store mine "cruiser ready:" full tube, empty chamber with hammer down. I also keep the manual safety engaged (Vang Comp -- easy to sweep off as I get on the trigger) because unsafed long guns plus stress makes me a little nervous My reasoning is that the gun is not drop safe and when I'm home it's leaned against something. This requires me to rack the gun in order to get it into action, so my move is to immediately rack it upon retrieval.

Am I on the right track with this, or is there a better way?

I store mine "cruiser ready" as well. Two reasons. The one in my "cruiser" is stored that way (go figure), and because my home shotgun is stored in an in-wall cabinet. It could conceivably fall out, and as mentioned it is not drop safe.

I don't know it matters much if it's somewhere it's not liable to fall.

[Drang]

Civilian, retired Army, son of a cop. Dad hated shotgun quals, because he is shorter than me and of course the Winchester Model 12s they issued had the full length of full.
I served in a couple of units in Korea which had more Model 12s for the Korean civilian security force, and those detailed to take "ajashi" out and qualify him on the scatterguns had some dire tales of derpery...


Then there's the barrel. It's 20". If the state of Washington would deign to let me put a 14" barrel on this thing, I would in a heart beat, but otherwise I don't feel like there's a huge difference between 18.5" and 20".
My understanding is that the main advantages to a longer barrel on a shotgun are that it gives you a longer sighting plane when wingshooting, and a certain length is legaler for us peasants. I thought I was told that in the Defensive Shotgun class I took at Firearms Academy of Seattle a year and a half ago, but it's not in my notes. (AAR on the blog, here (http://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/2015/10/defensive-shotgun-fas-10172015.html), if anyone's interested.)


I use this barrel because it has a vent rib, which I get better hits with, and even worse, screw in choke tubes which EVERYBODY knows will get you killed on the streets.
I can't comment on screw-in chokes, but I've noticed most of the after-market sights suitable for defensive use are designed to go over a vent rib, so...

As for penetration with shotgun rounds, in that class they showed us a video Marty Hayes made before FAS moved to it's current location, demonstrating the relative penetration of everything from #8 Dove shot through rifled slugs. Even most of the bird shot tested would penetrate two layers of sheetrock, so caution is indicated for indoor/home defense use. (Table with full results at the blog post linked above.)

[SamAdams]

My understanding is that the main advantages to a longer barrel on a shotgun are that it gives you a longer sighting plane when wingshooting, and a certain length is legaler for us peasants.


As far as wing shooting goes, the advantage of a longer barrel is that the weight out there helps keep the barrel smoothly swinging when shooting at moving targets. Shotguns, when wing shooting, aren't really aimed in the sense that a rifle is. One gets the feel of alignment of arms, head, and barrel with adequate practice. Guns fitted to the particular wing shooter help immensely with this. As far as a vent rib, I can take 'em or leave 'em, depending on the gun. The extra weight could help with swing through.
One of the things I regret to this day is coming across a long barreled Winchester Model 12 pump action shotgun, US marked at a LGS. I was on a mission to buy something else that day. When I got home about an hour later, it dawned on me that it was one of the guns used to train bomber aircrew gunners to shoot attacking enemy aircraft in WW2. America is a nation with a rifleman tradition, not so much wing shooting - like English gentlemen. The gunners needed training & practice learning how to lead and swing on moving targets. Of course, by the time I confirmed the gun markings online and called the LGS for them to hold it for me, it had been sold. They had only put it in the gun rack that morning.

[Lester Polfus]

The difference between a 28" barrel and a 18.5" when swinging on a target is pretty noticeable. The difference between the 18.5" and 20", not so much.

Oddly, I find the long, flat plane of the vent rib helps me get better hits with slugs in the 30-75 yard range.

[DocGKR]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4340-12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-LE-duty-use

Until recently, the 12 gauge shotgun has remained the universally accepted shoulder fired weapon for United States law enforcement general purpose use. While law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns are typically loaded with #00 Buckshot and offer outstanding incapacitation potential and increased hit potential against moving targets at close range (no more than 15 to 25 yard), the shotgun is not an ideal general purpose weapon due to its short effective range, imprecise accuracy, downrange hazard to bystanders, small ammunition capacity, slow reloading, and harsh recoil. Recognition of the shotgun’s significant limitations as a general purpose weapon have prompted many American law enforcement agencies to adopt the more versatile semi-automatic carbine for general purpose use.

Yet despite their limitations, shotguns are still found in the majority of patrol cars in the United States and still have a valid role for law enforcement use, especially in close quarters combat (CQB) and to deliver specialized munitions (breaching, chemical, less lethal impact and electronic). A basic shotgun weapon system is already in place for most departments and the 12 gauge shotgun is one of the most cost effective weapons to obtain and operate.

Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon-- this can be a significant advantage during urban entry missions and high risk warrant service in closely confined settings. Should the need arise to stop fast moving targets at close range, like aggressive dogs that could not be deterred through less lethal alternatives, 12 gauge buckshot of #1 shot or larger is the optimal ammunition choice. Keep in mind that buckshot, especially frangible types such as Hevishot, have less ricochet risk than shotgun slugs, as well as handgun and rifle projectiles when fired at objects close to the ground, such as charging dogs. In congested urban settings, buckshot is less likely to pose as high a downrange hazard as slugs in the event a missed shot exits a structure wall. Birdshot offers inadequate penetration and intermediate barrier capability and has no place for LE or defensive use.

On the other hand, slugs offer several advantages in other settings, including greater range when in open areas, more precise accuracy and control of projectiles, and in more rural settings if larger animals like cattle are critically injured and need to be rapidly euthanized in the field, shotgun slugs are an optimal choice. Shotguns loaded with good quality deep penetrating slugs like Brenneke or the Federal Truball Deep Penetrator (PB127 DPRS) are able to defeat intermediate barriers better than handguns, SMG’s, handgun caliber carbines, & 5.56mm/.223 carbines--this particularly includes defeating laminated automobile and transit vehicle windshields. They are also the best option commonly available to LE for defense against large U.S. predators like brown bears.

Note that while traditional Foster type slugs can be very effective against unobstructed soft targets, they tend to break apart and often fail to offer adequate penetration against intermediate barriers and tougher animals. Since slugs are typically selected with the goal of successfully penetrating something--often times intermediate barriers or large dangerous animals, Foster type slugs are NOT generally the best option for LE use.

The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrate in the 14-18 inch range.

[SamAdams]

The difference between a 28" barrel and a 18.5" when swinging on a target is pretty noticeable. The difference between the 18.5" and 20", not so much.

Oddly, I find the long, flat plane of the vent rib helps me get better hits with slugs in the 30-75 yard range.

Above I was talking wing shooting. That is, shooting at moving targets. When used with slugs for hunting or defense, or very tightly choked turkey guns that produce extremely tight shot patterns for a relatively long distance - - yes, a shotgun is aimed more like a rifle.


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[ssb]

Obviously you don't aspire to be a movie actor. If so, you would wait to rack the slide - up close to your face - in front of the bad guy at the most dramatic moment. He runs off, intimidated by the racking sound. Or you plug him and he flys back 10 feet from the impact of the shotgun blast.

On the racking the slide noise thing:

I don't view it as something that's going to scare away a determined criminal. However, in the context I do it (immediately upon retrieval) I do think there is *some* value to the sound. Something causes me to go get the shotgun, it may well be a burglar/home invasion/alien abduction/whatever. While it's not my lifestyle, for a lot of people the reality is that it's far more likely for that sound to be their teenage kid sneaking in, or maybe a drunk with the wrong apartment, or something along those lines. Racking a shotgun is a culturally-recognized (mostly due to all those movie stars) "shit's about to get real" signal. Maybe that's enough for that unknown -- but benign -- person to identify themselves and calm things down. And, if I get lucky and an intruder with ill intent runs off, that's great too.

Again: I don't view the sound as an automatic burglar-disappearer and the time for that sound is as soon as the gun goes into my hands, not once I have a target lined up. But I do think a more nuanced view of it is appropriate vs. the reflexive "racking the shotgun is Hollywood bullshit" (not saying that's where you're going with it) that a lot of gun forum people throw out.

[Jay585]

What would ya'll suggest for someone who has minimal experience with shotguns get/equip/do?

I've fired my dad's unconverted Saiga 12. The buttstock is too long and the hard plastic buttpad does no one any favors. Saigas aren't imported anymore so cost has shot upwards of $1k then tack on the conversion cost and having to source magazines for it is a pain (and expensive!) so for me it's not worth it. Though I'd consider it if advised to.

I also fired two magazine tube full of my Grandfather's Winchester 1300 which I found much more fun than the Saiga.

Other than that, no experience with 'em. What do you suggest? And what are some good media resources and trainers to take a class with?

[ssb]

What would ya'll suggest for someone who has minimal experience with shotguns get/equip/do?

I've fired my dad's unconverted Saiga 12. The buttstock is too long and the hard plastic buttpad does no one any favors. Saigas aren't imported anymore so cost has shot upwards of $1k then tack on the conversion cost and having to source magazines for it is a pain (and expensive!) so for me it's not worth it. Though I'd consider it if advised to.

I also fired two magazine tube full of my Grandfather's Winchester 1300 which I found much more fun than the Saiga.

Other than that, no experience with 'em. What do you suggest? And what are some good media resources and trainers to take a class with?

My suggestion:

There are a whole bunch of police trade-in 870Ps out there right now in the $250-300 range. I'd pick up one of those. I'd buy a Magpul SGA stock as that's really the best thing going for shotguns right now, though an alternative for the shorter LOP would be a factory youth stock or a Hogue 12" LOP stock.

Replace the magazine tube spring with a Wollf spring in the appropriate length. Replace the follower with a better unit (I was recommended Vang Comp and am pleased with it thus far, but there are quite a few options: Wilson, Scattergun Tech, etc.). At this point you should have a reliable gun with a stock that fits.

If you want a light on the gun, I like the Surefire fore-end. Others do not because it adds a not-insignificant amount of weight to the gun. A solid alternative seems to be the Magpul SGA forend (~$30 IIRC) and a light of your choice.

For factory new, I'd either a) buy an 870 of your choice, carefully inspect it for problems (chamber in particular), do the modifications I outlined above, and if it's an Express model also add a non-MIM extractor ($20) and an 870P/1187 carrier dog spring ($5) or b) buy a Mossberg 500 or 590 and add a Magpul stock.

[SeriousStudent]

My suggestion:

There are a whole bunch of police trade-in 870Ps out there right now in the $250-300 range. I'd pick up one of those. I'd buy a Magpul SGA stock as that's really the best thing going for shotguns right now, though an alternative for the shorter LOP would be a factory youth stock or a Hogue 12" LOP stock.

Replace the magazine tube spring with a Wollf spring in the appropriate length. Replace the follower with a better unit (I was recommended Vang Comp and am pleased with it thus far, but there are quite a few options: Wilson, Scattergun Tech, etc.). At this point you should have a reliable gun with a stock that fits.

If you want a light on the gun, I like the Surefire fore-end. Others do not because it adds a not-insignificant amount of weight to the gun. A solid alternative seems to be the Magpul SGA forend (~$30 IIRC) and a light of your choice.

For factory new, I'd either a) buy an 870 of your choice, carefully inspect it for problems (chamber in particular), do the modifications I outlined above, and if it's an Express model also add a non-MIM extractor ($20) and an 870P/1187 carrier dog spring ($5) or b) buy a Mossberg 500 or 590 and add a Magpul stock.

Jay585: ssb has given you solid advice.

[OlongJohnson]

For factory new, I'd either a) buy an 870 of your choice, carefully inspect it for problems (chamber in particular), do the modifications I outlined above, and if it's an Express model also add a non-MIM extractor ($20) and an 870P/1187 carrier dog spring ($5) or b) buy a Mossberg 500 or 590 and add a Magpul stock.

About a year ago, it was possible to end up with a new Express for about $265 out the door after rebate. Probably not going to happen again any time soon. The 870P comes with all the good stuff you'd plan to add to make the Express into a reliable HD gun, including the shorter barrel, and a bunch of stuff that would be prohibitively expensive to add. It's really a no brainer to just get the cop gun and have an armorer or smith go through it (if you're not capable of doing so yourself) to ensure everything is GTG.

[ssb]

About a year ago, it was possible to end up with a new Express for about $265 out the door after rebate. Probably not going to happen again any time soon. The 870P comes with all the good stuff you'd plan to add to make the Express into a reliable HD gun, including the shorter barrel, and a bunch of stuff that would be prohibitively expensive to add. It's really a no brainer to just get the cop gun and have an armorer or smith go through it (if you're not capable of doing so yourself) to ensure everything is GTG.

Remington is running a $60 mail-in rebate on their shotguns through the summer IIRC.

[GJM]

My advice is to buy an 870 only with the expectation of devoting significant time to the pump action manual of arms. If what you really care about just is launching slugs and buck, buy a 1301/M2/M4.

A skilled person with an 870 is magical. An unskilled one looks like a monkey humping a football. Put some drills on a timer, and you will quickly figure out what group you fall into.

I carry a shotgun near daily. For my defensive use around bears, there is no better tool than a red dot equipped, semi-auto, 14 inch shotgun stuffed with Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

What would ya'll suggest for someone who has minimal experience with shotguns get/equip/do?

I've fired my dad's unconverted Saiga 12. The buttstock is too long and the hard plastic buttpad does no one any favors. Saigas aren't imported anymore so cost has shot upwards of $1k then tack on the conversion cost and having to source magazines for it is a pain (and expensive!) so for me it's not worth it. Though I'd consider it if advised to.

I also fired two magazine tube full of my Grandfather's Winchester 1300 which I found much more fun than the Saiga.

Other than that, no experience with 'em. What do you suggest? And what are some good media resources and trainers to take a class with?
Tom Givens for training. His shotgun program is solid, and he will probably rent you an 870 to use. Do the class, shoot the rental, THEN buy your own.


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[Gater]

Tom Givens for training. His shotgun program is solid, and he will probably rent you an 870 to use. Do the class, shoot the rental, THEN buy your own.


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I haven't had the chance to do Mr. Given's shotgun course, but I'd add that his shotgun video is an excellent and easily accessible way to start getting oriented on the shotgun.

[SeriousStudent]

My advice is to buy an 870 only with the expectation of devoting significant time to the pump action manual of arms. If what you really care about just is launching slugs and buck, buy a 1301/M2/M4.

A skilled person with an 870 is magical. An unskilled one looks like a monkey humping a football. Put some drills on a timer, and you will quickly figure out what group you fall into.

I carry a shotgun near daily. For my defensive use around bears, there is no better tool than a red dot equipped, semi-auto, 14 inch shotgun stuffed with Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs.

I really do not need another shotgun at all, but a large part of me positively yearns for a 14" Benelli Entry Gun.

[GJM]

I really do not need another shotgun at all, but a large part of me positively yearns for a 14" Benelli Entry Gun.

17780

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I haven't had the chance to do Mr. Given's shotgun course, but I'd add that his shotgun video is an excellent and easily accessible way to start getting oriented on the shotgun.

True. The shotgun video is a good one.


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[Lester Polfus]

I was hitherto unaware that Mr. Givens had a shotgun DVD. Thank you gentlemen. Next payday, it will be mine.

For those of you who are interested:

http://rangemaster.com/publications/training-dvds/

[John Hearne]

For those of use still living in an 870 world, I found hex head replacement screws for the factory rifle sights: http://www.ebay.com/itm/352097415727

[SeriousStudent]

17780

And that is pretty much how I would set it up, too.

Sigh.

[That Guy]

With a full choke, I get palm sized groups out to 18 yards with Remington Express 00 buckshot

Of the inexpensive buckshot rounds I've tested, the Remington has been the most consistent and given me the tightest patterns. Interestingly, in my 11-87 it prefers a modified choke rather than a full choke. (Which is nice, as a full choke is a tad tight for my preferred slugs.) Not a bad choice of ammo at all.

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[overton]

Just anecdotal, but Jim Cirillo and Chuck Karwan both weren't terribly impressed by the shotgun in real life use and prefered carbines.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Took one of Tom Given's shotgun classes. Well worth it as is the video. My old Winchester Defender 1300 has worked well in it. That being said, I'm comfortable with the gun but if for some apocalyptic home situation, I'm first going for the AR (fill in typical reasons).

However, if the 1300 was the home long gun, I'd be OK with that.

[Coyotesfan97]

My 870 with the new (to me) 20" rifle sighted barrel attached. I bought it today off another forum. It has a Surefire fore end with the old light and a Tacstar 6 round sidesaddle.

17806

[TGS]

Just anecdotal, but Jim Cirillo and Chuck Karwan both weren't terribly impressed by the shotgun in real life use and prefered carbines.

Not only anecdotal, but a statement lacking any sort of context or specifics. Can you add any?

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Not only anecdotal, but a statement lacking any sort of context or specifics. Can you add any?

I was just watching a documentary about the old west...the author claimed that western frontiersmen were underwhelmed with the performance of their revolver sidearms, and preferred rifles/shotguns. But for what?

I'm sure that shotgun performance in Cirillo's heyday were underwhelming, what with felt wads, and plastic shot cups just coming into play, and Foster type slugs. The flite control type wads and Brennekke/penetration centric slugs definitely change the effectiveness of the shotgun, from what it's been in the past.

I don't recall much about Karwan, aside from him being in Vietnam? And again, ammunition performance was in its scientific infancy then, so go figure.


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[Dagga Boy]

Just a couple bullet point thoughts. This is really my thing, and what I will be devouring much of my training and instructional time into in the future personally. I have a ton of operational time on the gauge, including an OIS, somhere goes.

My favorite tool for pistol fights. At handgun ranges things need to be fast as they tend to be dynamic. You want to hit fast and be able to swing fast, and incapacity fast. Against typical pistol armed criminal opponents in the US....the 12 gauge is my first choice.

Legality....they tend to be very socially and legally acceptable almost everywhere. If you don't think your Suppressed 10" AR with an Armbrace is going to raise an eyebrow or have any influence on any part of a post shooting investigation....just consider me an idiot and move on. If you think there are some factors outside the exact letter of the law...12/20 gauge is always a solid choice if you learn to run them as an anti personnel tool.

Easy transport. Getting into the clay sports recently.....nobody, and I mean nobody gives one crap about your "Trap/sporting clays/skeet gun. Just spent significant time in California with a Benelli Sport II. Almost funny the difference in how it was treated at the airlines and hotels, etc. I have traveled all over the country and to many socialist utopia's with AR's...it is almost comical the difference. I have found I can do the Lord's work just fine with my beautiful walnut stocked two tone Vent rib Benelli. I figure at some point I ll get a Vent rib barrel cut to 18" for it. Also, even the O/U that you can even travel internationally with should give good service inside a hotel room if needed.

Biggest issue is just like Handguns....they need to shot shouldered outside of retention range and visually verified. Like snubs....they are not for the feeble and untrained, no matter what the guy at the gun store says.

It is usually easy to get Ammo.....even when there is no ammo. You can also really pick your ammo to meet the mission.

I look at them like enhanced handguns instead of wannabe rifles. That approach will change a lot of how to think and train on the gun.

Upcoming plans for my personal trip in this world is a Benelli M2 3 gun set up with the new Aimpoint S1 when it is released as a true do it all long gun for me for what I want these days in a long gun.

[Dagga Boy]

Just anecdotal, but Jim Cirillo and Chuck Karwan both weren't terribly impressed by the shotgun in real life use and prefered carbines.

The other surveillance unit with a much deeper history on the other coast has done more work with the 12 ga. Than anything else and was the preferred gun for most of their history. Also mirrors Dallas PD's shotgun squads.

[John Hearne]

The only Cirillo shotgun failure I can remember is the guy that took two shotgun slugs to the chest. IIRC, they bracketed but did not hit his heart and he was able to take a cab away from the scene. He may have ultimately expired but I don't remember.

The experience of the other famous shotgun squad, that of Dallas, TX PD, was dramatically different.

[GJM]

I would be curious as to the source for Cirillo's opinion on the shotgun. My long time friend, Paul Kirchner, is the author of the Cirillo book. I have that book on Kindle and just reread it. Seemed like the shotgun was working or they would not have kept bringing on stakeouts?

[overton]

Maybe out of legal reasons? They had to cope with the S&W M10 and .38 Special too, after all. I think it was in "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights", but
I can look it up in a few days.
I just found it interesting that both, Cirillo and Karwan, prefered the .30 Carbine 110gr. softpoint as a more reliable stopper.

[Lester Polfus]

Of the inexpensive buckshot rounds I've tested, the Remington has been the most consistent and given me the tightest patterns. Interestingly, in my 11-87 it prefers a modified choke rather than a full choke. (Which is nice, as a full choke is a tad tight for my preferred slugs.) Not a bad choice of ammo at all.

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I realized it centered buckshot patterns around point of aim AND the slugs shot centered for windage, and felt like I'd won the ballistic lottery.

[NickS]

The greatest myth out there about shotguns is that you don't have to aim them when you shoot them. Hollyweird has conditioned "we the people" to think what we can simply point it in the general direction of a bad guy and we will sweep everything down in front of us in a ten foot radius of the blast. Nope, does NOT work that way.

I see it all the time in the shotgun classes we run at our facility. People come away having learned that yes, you do need to aim at what you want to hit with a shotgun.

That lesson is perhaps one the most valuable ones you can learn.

[nalesq]

Everyone here agrees that training is pretty critical, especially with a pump shotgun.

So besides many of the reasons already mentioned (e.g., not "cool," almost no shotgun comes with a buttstock suitable for people without gorilla arms, weight, recoil, etc.), I think part of the reason shotguns aren't more widely appreciated is that doing serious training with a shotgun at an indoor range (which is what most people have access to) is kind of a pain in the ass. Paper targets get torn up way too quickly. Lots of indoor ranges have peculiar restrictions about using different kinds of shotgun ammo. Indoors, the gauge can get obnoxiously blasty after a while.

I think you really sort of need an outdoor range and steel plates to do a lot of fun high volume shotgun training.



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[That Guy]

You can get lots of work done with cardboard targets, too. I save my used up targets for shotgun training. At close ranges, basic birdshot works fine. The first round makes a ragged hole in the target. Then you simply send the next shots through the same hole. :) When the hole becomes larger than your desired impact zone, replace target with the next used one and carry on.

(At longer ranges, buckshot or slugs are necessary, so it's not quite the same as using steel targets. But if you're restricted from using steel, cardboard can be made to work.)

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[LJP]

Civilian here. No mil or LE experience.

I am currently awaiting approval of a Form 4 on a 870P SBS that will become my default home defense gun. I have pistol/AR/shotgun available right now to fill that role, but am convinced that the shotgun is ideal for my needs in that capacity. My only formal training with a shotgun has been limited to a 3 hour block at the last Tac-Con with Tom Givens, but that was enough to prompt me to order the 870P. Currently, a 1300 Defender that I've had for literally decades is what I keep handy for bump in the night duties. It works just fine, but without the benefit of widespread aftermarket support, I am going to put it in the back of the safe when I'm finally able to get my SBS out of NFA jail. I plan to equip the new gun with MagPul furniture and a +1 extension. As well, I'm going to order one of the ejection port locks for storage purposes, as I will have two kids under two by the time my stamp is approved.

I also have an inexpensive Beretta A300 for hunting/clays, but it doesn't see too much use. For hunting deer on public land in my state, I am legally compelled to use a slug gun, and have a H&R slug gun for that. Quite frankly, I hate shooting the thing and really wish I had gotten the 20 ga version when they were still available. When I hunt out of state, I take my rifle...

Does the shotgun require training to use efficiently? Of course, but so does almost any weapon system to use it to its full potential.

As evidenced by my recent purchase, I still believe the shotgun is a viable tool, especially for home defense. With that said, 99% of my waking hours, I'm carrying a pistol to deal with whatever comes my way, and if I had to defend the curtilage of my property in some fantasy scenario, I would probably grab an AR.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think in the gun world there is a difference between a 'viable' tool and a 'better' or more 'optimal' tool. There is sometimes a nostalgic or mythological attraction to some 'viable' tools. With shotguns, there is both.

I'll pass on listing the mythology that attracts males, it's been said many times before. One anecdote, some old colleague was annoyed at his older wife, a small women with no noticeable physical fitness, has she balked at shooting a pistol grip 12 gauge pump which for him was the ultimate home defense gun. Big surprise - so instead he got her a 40 SW Glock - guess the results of that.

Men!

PS: look at the graphs here:

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/ShootingIndustry/SI0717/?page=24

Rifle and handgun sales accelerate while shotgun sales are pretty flat over the past few years. It would be interesting to see a shotgun breakdown by sporting vs. 'tactical'.

[Duelist]

Was military with some downrange time. Now, I am a vet in a masters program to get certified as a school counselor.

I see the utility of a shotgun in a combat role. If I were on a limited budget and wanted a couple of defensive firearms, starting at zero guns, I'd get the first used Glock 9mm I found and a pump shotgun and rock those suckers.

That said. I own one side by side 20 guage that I use for bird hunting. That is the only shotgun I have ever owned. I own a couple of ARs. The 5.56 would be used for HD. The 6.8 is for hunting. I'd rather use a 5.56 for HD than a shotgun. If I lived in Alaska, I'd get a Benelli.

[BillSWPA]

One of my concerns about using a shotgun for home defense is the possibility of having to shoot a threat in close proximity to a family member. With an AR, as long as the offset is taken into account, we know exactly where that bullet is going. With a shotgun, although the spread is likely to be quite limited at typical home defense distances, it might be necessary to take it into account in some situations.

[rob_s]

So is there a hardware side to this? Cutting edge, but not bleeding edge, on both the pump and semi side? Does what works in the LE role match what works in the home defense role? Is there an application on the non-LE civilian side for use outside the home the way some folks keep a carbine in their car for potential encounters out in the woolly wilds?

[GJM]

Seems like most stoppages with a pump are operator induced, and most stoppages with a semi are ammo induced.

If I wanted to launch a wide variety of projectiles, and/or was in terrible conditions, a NP3'd pump would be my choice. For shooting full power buck and slugs, my choice is a M2/M4/1301.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

One of my concerns about using a shotgun for home defense is the possibility of having to shoot a threat in close proximity to a family member. With an AR, as long as the offset is taken into account, we know exactly where that bullet is going. With a shotgun, although the spread is likely to be quite limited at typical home defense distances, it might be necessary to take it into account in some situations.

I think this is easily overcome with training and load selection, and of course patterning.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/bb2ca9545f927ecef734ce9e5219f808.jpg. The gun...Remington 870 Express Tactical. $199 OTD. Magpul stock, LE take off SF forend with Malkoff (sp?) LED upgrade. Bungee breaching sling. Velcro sidesaddle.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/2295a7e8b9d8df240400023811e4943b.jpg. 5 yards with Federal Flight Control 00 buckshot. Pretty small hole.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/d72f86dbe3a1a3483e2cae8a8b3d6cd0.jpg. 10 yards. Clear delineation from the wad versus the cluster of shot. Still pretty tight...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/543eeeb35b5e397ed9386cde918b1ec6.jpg. And 15 yards...the longest shot I have in my house. All 9 pellets still accounted for, and still a relatively tight pattern. I'd gladly (and I do) use this in a capacity where I may have to shoot around my family with absolute confidence.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/c68fd5e253a7e0c0c3849d88670298b8.jpg. And just to assuage any thoughts that I might have to use it in a longer distance scenario at 25 yards, all 9 pellets still in the badguy, with a pair of them detaching from that central mass and spinning down and to the right. Still, quite acceptable for my tastes. YMMV.


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[GJM]

I think this is easily overcome with training and load selection, and of course patterning.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/bb2ca9545f927ecef734ce9e5219f808.jpg. The gun...Remington 870 Express Tactical. $199 OTD. Magpul stock, LE take off SF forend with Malkoff (sp?) LED upgrade. Bungee breaching sling. Velcro sidesaddle.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/2295a7e8b9d8df240400023811e4943b.jpg. 5 yards with Federal Flight Control 00 buckshot. Pretty small hole.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/d72f86dbe3a1a3483e2cae8a8b3d6cd0.jpg. 10 yards. Clear delineation from the wad versus the cluster of shot. Still pretty tight...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/543eeeb35b5e397ed9386cde918b1ec6.jpg. And 15 yards...the longest shot I have in my house. All 9 pellets still accounted for, and still a relatively tight pattern. I'd gladly (and I do) use this in a capacity where I may have to shoot around my family with absolute confidence.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/c68fd5e253a7e0c0c3849d88670298b8.jpg. And just to assuage any thoughts that I might have to use it outside of my house, at 25 yards, all 9 pellets still in the badguy, with a pair of them detaching from that central mass and spinning down and to the right. Still, quite acceptable for my tastes. YMMV.


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This falls into art, not science, but if there was a situation I was worried about pattern and a non-threat, I would be selecting a slug. Louis Awerbuck used to carry his 11-87 14 inch with all slugs, which I found informative, given his place in the pantheon of shotgun instructors.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Oh, and since rob_s is talking about equipment, I set up my, "strictly," slug guns different than my GP shotgun. This is the gun I have prepared for office defense/black bear repellant. Still a cylinder bore barrel, still patterns well with Federal FC 00 buckshot, but the ghost ring (Wilson Front, XS rear) are zeroed for Truball slugs. No sling to interfere with handling. And no light, since I'm not there at night. OEM stock cut down to 12" LOP.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/ed903b53b41b99c1fa22826811450c2e.jpg


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[Sherman A. House DDS]

This falls into art, not science, but if there was a situation I was worried about pattern and a non-threat, I would be selecting a slug. Louis Awerbuck used to carry his 11-87 14 inch with all slugs, which I found informative, given his place in the pantheon of shotgun instructors.

I agree. I carried a tube's worth on my armor carrier when I worked the bread trucks, too, just for such an eventuality. Especially in places like banks...lots of random people, lots of not-buckshot-capable cover.


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[GJM]

Oh, and since rob_s is talking about equipment, I set up my, "strictly," slug guns different than my GP shotgun. This is the gun I have prepared for office defense/black bear repellant. Still a cylinder bore barrel, still patterns well with Federal FC 00 buckshot, but the ghost ring (Wilson Front, XS rear) are zeroed for Truball slugs. No sling to interfere with handling. And no light, since I'm not there at night. OEM stock cut down to 12" LOP.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170705/ed903b53b41b99c1fa22826811450c2e.jpg


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Aesthetics aside, I bet you would really like a Magpul butt stock on a slug oriented 870.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Aesthetics aside, I bet you would really like a Magpul butt stock on a slug oriented 870.

Yeah, I have others and I don't really notice too much of a difference in feel. I'll try it again with that in mind.


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[GJM]

Yeah, I have others and I don't really notice too much of a difference in feel. I'll try it again with that in mind.


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I really noticed the comfort advantage of the Magpul when shooting Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs thru my 14 inch 870s. That is obviously a worst case scenario of heavy ammo and a short, light 870.

[GJM]

For those primarily interested in slugs, another possibility is a 20 gauge Benelli M2. My wife has one, cut to about 18.5 inch barrel length, that holds 7+1 Brenneke slugs. As I recall, those slugs actually have better sectional density than 12 gauge slugs, and she can shoot it about as easily as a .308 AR. It is lightweight, thin, and packs a hurtin' payload of Brennekes.

[UNK]

Civilian on 6 densely wooded acres adjacent to a National Forest. Bears, cougars and assholes are in abundance in the NF. Sasquatch is a possibility.

I'll see your $350 walmart bitch pump gun and raise you a $230 pawn shop gauge, traded straight across for the cheap ass wedding ring from my ill conceived first marriage.

Its my primary defensive long gun and I dont make any apologies for it.


https://youtu.be/Kdw1KSkO1tI

[Lester Polfus]

https://youtu.be/Kdw1KSkO1tI

That right there is why I'm upgrading to the Brenneke slugs...

[Bigghoss]

For those primarily interested in slugs, another possibility is a 20 gauge Benelli M2. My wife has one, cut to about 18.5 inch barrel length, that holds 7+1 Brenneke slugs. As I recall, those slugs actually have better sectional density than 12 gauge slugs, and she can shoot it about as easily as a .308 AR. It is lightweight, thin, and packs a hurtin' payload of Brennekes.

Speaking of 20ga autos, does anyone know anything about the Mossberg SA-20? I've yet to play with one but I heard good things and it's inexpensive enough that one could pick one up and not take a bath on it if it wasn't satisfactory. Just checked the price and they can be had for $460.
http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/75780_SA20Railed_PGrip.png

[SeriousStudent]

That right there is why I'm upgrading to the Brenneke slugs...

Go belt fed or go home.

[Duelist]

For those primarily interested in slugs, another possibility is a 20 gauge Benelli M2. My wife has one, cut to about 18.5 inch barrel length, that holds 7+1 Brenneke slugs. As I recall, those slugs actually have better sectional density than 12 gauge slugs, and she can shoot it about as easily as a .308 AR. It is lightweight, thin, and packs a hurtin' payload of Brennekes.

This. If I move to Alaska for some reason (would have to be work or to hunt, since I don't love snow), this would probably be my new best friend.

[Caballoflaco]

Does anyone prefer a pistol grip stock like on the above mossberg to a traditional stock?

I personally found found that pistol grip stocks (not pistol grip only) on 12ga guns force more recoil into my wrist than I like. I did spend thousands of hours of my childhood shooting traditionally stocked pellet guns and .22's so that may bias me some.

Eta: civilian user.

[NoLock]

Is the higher cost of a quality semi auto worth it for a home defense gun? How much extra training / practice is required, on average, to get someone to a skill level where the chance of operator error isn't an issue?

[Bigghoss]

How much extra training / practice is required, on average, to get someone to a skill level where the chance of operator error isn't an issue?

There will always be the chance of the operator short stroking or not racking it hard enough but to minimize it does not take as much practice as you might think, IF the stock fits the shooter. Even taller guys usually prefer shorter than the typical 14" stocks that most guns come with new. I'm 6'2 and I like about 12.5-13". I've seen short guys try to run factory stocked guns and have lots of issues.

[GJM]

Does anyone prefer a pistol grip stock like on the above mossberg to a traditional stock?

I personally found found that pistol grip stocks (not pistol grip only) on 12ga guns force more recoil into my wrist than I like. I did spend thousands of hours of my childhood shooting traditionally stocked pellet guns and .22's so that may bias me some.

Eta: civilian user.

No, for how I use the shotgun! LE may have specialized uses that argue for a pistol grip, but for me the pistol grip makes it awkward in the field (especially in thick cover), makes operating a safety harder, concentrates recoil into my wrist, interferes with optimal snap shooting, and generally mucks up the overall handing. My current #1 14 inch M2 came with a pistol grip stock, and when I replaced it with a Comfertech youth sized traditional stock, it was significantly softer with Brenneke slugs. A feature of the Magpul is it has a developed pistol grip area, that gives you many of the possible benefits of the pistol grip stock, without the actual pistol grip hanging down and beating you and your surroundings.


Is the higher cost of a quality semi auto worth it for a home defense gun? How much extra training / practice is required, on average, to get someone to a skill level where the chance of operator error isn't an issue?

Everyone will answer that differently.

[GJM]

There will always be the chance of the operator short stroking or not racking it hard enough but to minimize it does not take as much practice as you might think, IF the stock fits the shooter. Even taller guys usually prefer shorter than the typical 14" stocks that most guns come with new. I'm 6'2 and I like about 12.5-13". I've seen short guys try to run factory stocked guns and have lots of issues.


I agree on short LOP, but still it is easy to conceive of situations where LOP changes dramatically, like when you are packing 100 pounds of moose meat in your Mystery Ranch Crew Cab with big padded shoulders straps, you are wearing every layer you have, or you have only one arm available because you are holding a leash or a creature is nibbling on your other arm.

My wife is a really skilled overall shooter of handguns and rifles, many of large caliber. She has taken shotgun training with Louis Awerbuck, Randy Cain and others. Still, she despises a pump shotgun. The Benelli appeals to her, as she refers to it as a shoulder fired Glock -- press the trigger until the threat is over or it runs dry, dump it on the ground, and carry on with the pistol. I am different, in that I am excited by new systems. Still, these days it is always a semi auto I grab when I am headed into the field around bears.

[GJM]

Since earlier photos are gone to Photobucket hell, here is her M2 20 gauge.

17856

17857

17858

I am quite interested in the forthcoming Ampoint S1 Darryl has mentioned, as it will drop low right on the vent rib. Previously, my opinion was that a bear has to touch you to hurt you, but I have spent so much time behind a pistol and carbine dot in USPSA, I am most comfortable with a red dot.

[jandbj]

I'll see your $350 walmart bitch pump gun and raise you a $230 pawn shop gauge, traded straight across for the cheap ass wedding ring from my ill conceived first marriage.

From a guy going through a divorce right now... I see this as possibly the best use ever of a cursed ring!

[45dotACP]

Maybe I'm just a weak pussy, but is the speed advantage for a semi auto with slugs there? With my Stoeger, the recoil of a slug is a fairly jarring experience. It takes a bit of effort to get back on target and in that time, a skilled user of a slide action gun would probably be close to having fully cycled the gun by that time.

I have yet to time this...I probably ought to, but my only available 12 gauge is a full choked Winchester 1897 that was made in the early aughts and I'm definitely not running slugs through it...

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[Duelist]

Maybe I'm just a weak pussy, but is the speed advantage for a semi auto with slugs there? With my Stoeger, the recoil of a slug is a fairly jarring experience. It takes a bit of effort to get back on target and in that time, a skilled user of a slide action gun would probably be close to having fully cycled the gun by that time.

I have yet to time this...I probably ought to, but my only available 12 gauge is a full choked Winchester 1897 that was made in the early aughts and I'm definitely not running slugs through it...

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In my limited semi-auto shotgun experience, it is much less jarring to fire 00 buck or slugs through a Benelli than an 870 or similar, and the gun cycles very, very fast. You would have to be running a very slick 1300 or older Wingmaster, and be very good with it, to come close to a semi auto cycle speed and recoil control.

[JAD]

12 gauge terminal effect would make splits kind of moot.

[GJM]

12 gauge terminal effect would make splits kind of moot.

With the shotgun, and its great power and limited capacity, we are foremost interested in reliability.

[Lester Polfus]

Maybe I'm just a weak pussy, but is the speed advantage for a semi auto with slugs there? With my Stoeger, the recoil of a slug is a fairly jarring experience. It takes a bit of effort to get back on target and in that time, a skilled user of a slide action gun would probably be close to having fully cycled the gun by that time.

I have yet to time this...I probably ought to, but my only available 12 gauge is a full choked Winchester 1897 that was made in the early aughts and I'm definitely not running slugs through it...

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I don't think you are being a weak pussy at all. I'm a big dude and when I add up pros and cons of shotguns recoil is high on the con list.

Semis are certainly softer shooting than pumps but there is a big difference in the felt recoil of different pumps depending on stock geometry, fit and recoil pad quality. If I were to design a stock to kick the shit out of you, it would probably look like the one I imagine on your Winchester.

Regarding split times, the semi is faster but with good structure, practice and stock fit I feel like I can be ready to shoot again faster than I can asses whether I need to.

[OlongJohnson]

I was thinking about the pump vs. semi-auto thing with bears, and started doing a little math. Can't help it, I've been working on story problems all day.

Top speed of a grizzly is frequently reported to be ~35 mph, although there are reports of them having been clocked at that speed for extended distances, on the order of half a mile. Seems like some of them, or a big brown, could do better for a short distance. Wave your hands and imagine that a higher top speed counteracts time needed to accelerate. So call it 50 feet per second average for a bear that really wants to kill you. That's a 6-second 100-yard dash. In a second and a half, that's 75 feet.

A Tueller drill for a brown bear is 25 yards.

[Lester Polfus]

Does anyone prefer a pistol grip stock like on the above mossberg to a traditional stock?

I personally found found that pistol grip stocks (not pistol grip only) on 12ga guns force more recoil into my wrist than I like. I did spend thousands of hours of my childhood shooting traditionally stocked pellet guns and .22's so that may bias me some.

Eta: civilian user.

I've never seen any advantage to a pistol grip stock on a shotgun. It tends to focus recoil into the web of your hand which sucks.

One of the things I liked about a 14" or even 18" 870 over an MP-5 and a 10" or 16" Ar-15 was that the overall package was smaller and tighter, with nothing hanging off the top or bottom. It was perfect for inside ships, trailer homes, and getting in and out of a car. When you stick a pistol grip on a shotgun, it negates some of that.

Also, if you put a PG on a Mossberg, it makes the safety unworkable without seriously compromising your grip.

[GJM]

I was thinking about the pump vs. semi-auto thing with bears, and started doing a little math. Can't help it, I've been working on story problems all day.

Top speed of a grizzly is frequently reported to be ~35 mph, although there are reports of them having been clocked at that speed for extended distances, on the order of half a mile. Seems like some of them, or a big brown, could do better for a short distance. Wave your hands and imagine that a higher top speed counteracts time needed to accelerate. So call it 50 feet per second average for a bear that really wants to kill you. That's a 6-second 100-yard dash. In a second and a half, that's 75 feet.

A Tueller drill for a brown bear is 25 yards.

As a practical matter, if you shoot a bear in a DLP (defense of life and property) situation at 50 or 100 yards, you got some splanin' to do. Here is the form you fill out prior to your interview with the state, to determine whether your action was determined lawful.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/license/otherlicense/pdfs/dlp.pdf

Maybe a warning shot out there, but the action is likely 15-20 yards and in. Could be shooting around a buddy, tripping over vegetation or tundra hummocks, moving off line at the same time. The marksmanship challenge, however, probably gets easier with each shot.

[nalesq]

Does anyone prefer a pistol grip stock like on the above mossberg to a traditional stock?

I personally found found that pistol grip stocks (not pistol grip only) on 12ga guns force more recoil into my wrist than I like. I did spend thousands of hours of my childhood shooting traditionally stocked pellet guns and .22's so that may bias me some.

Eta: civilian user.

From what I can tell, the only good thing about the pistol grip stock is that it is marginally easier to maintain a grip on the shotgun with your firing hand in something vaguely like a low ready, while using your support hand to do some other non shooting task, such as manipulating comms, opening doors, etc.



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[SamAdams]

Maybe I'm just a weak pussy, but is the speed advantage for a semi auto with slugs there? With my Stoeger, the recoil of a slug is a fairly jarring experience. It takes a bit of effort to get back on target and in that time, a skilled user of a slide action gun would probably be close to having fully cycled the gun by that time.

I have yet to time this...I probably ought to, but my only available 12 gauge is a full choked Winchester 1897 that was made in the early aughts and I'm definitely not running slugs through it...

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A pump shotgun can be run as quickly as it needs to be run.
You can find videos of real shotgun pros with slicked up pump guns running them faster than some semi autos can cycle.As you mentioned, the real practical limiting factor is recovering from recoil & being ready for the next shot. In addition, there are advantages to the pump gun in that operating the slide with the off arm naturally brings the barrel down and pointed toward the target.

Absolutely nothing wrong with a good semi auto shotgun. And there's nothing wrong with a good pump gun either. If money is tight, get the pump gun and plenty of ammo & go out and get some trigger time on it.

[Drang]

Speaking of 20ga autos, does anyone know anything about the Mossberg SA-20? I've yet to play with one but I heard good things and it's inexpensive enough that one could pick one up and not take a bath on it if it wasn't satisfactory. Just checked the price and they can be had for $460.
So far as I know, this is the second query about this shotgun on P-F.com. I made the first a couple of years ago, and got a list of soft-shooting 12 gauge/ammo combinations in return. :o
I was thinking the tactical model SA20 w/a youth stock for the wife.

[SamAdams]

45dotACP - I forgot to add - if you wanted to experiment a little bit with pump gun firing speed potential , your Win 1897 will slam fire. Depress the trigger and each stroke of the slide will fire the gun. Of course, use lighter target loads. Some really proficient guys can conventionally run a pump gun as fast as most of us can slam fire one. - - I own old school pump guns - Win 1897, Win 12, Ithaca 37, etc that can be slam fired - but I don't find much practical reason for doing so. Target loads are one thing, -heavy buck or slugs are something else.
Here's a video that I just found of a guy with a Win 1897. He's not very good, but youll get the idea -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sljg40DgQbs

Hickok45 -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OukmFnhUCM




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[nalesq]

Maybe I'm just a weak pussy, but is the speed advantage for a semi auto with slugs there? With my Stoeger, the recoil of a slug is a fairly jarring experience. It takes a bit of effort to get back on target and in that time, a skilled user of a slide action gun would probably be close to having fully cycled the gun by that time.

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With the caveat that I don't practice that much with the gauge, what I found in comparing the Rem 870 pump with the Beretta 1301 semi is that with multiple shots on a single target, I could get significantly faster splits with good hit consistency at 10 yards or closer with the 1301 than with the 870. Like about 0.25 with the 1301 and about 0.45 with the 870. (I could make the 870 simply go bang a bit faster than that, but the hits would not be desirably consistent).

But in firing single shots at multiple targets there was essentially no meaningful difference between the two.


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[ranger]

So far as I know, this is the second query about this shotgun on P-F.com. I made the first a couple of years ago, and got a list of soft-shooting 12 gauge/ammo combinations in return. :o
I was thinking the tactical model SA20 w/a youth stock for the wife.

I have a Mossberg SA20 - it is my "wife's" shotgun. We live in a more rural area of NW GA and we had a near miss incident with a copperhead and her favorite dog - dog did not get bit but she recognized a need for a shotgun. Also, we have coyotes in the area - she is worried about her dogs at night on their "last call" before bedtime. We keep the SA20 at the basement door to the backyard and it is kept empty chamber but the tube loaded with #1 Buck for coyotes and two legged critters and first round will be a Remington Heavy Sporting Clays 7.5 for snakes. I have a light mounted on the OEM rail and otherwise stock. I took it to the outdoor range when new and ran a few boxes of heavy 20 gauge shells through it to check its function with no issues noted. Then, ran the wife through a few drills of loading and shooting. No issues noted. Like many less expensive shotguns it is made in Turkey. I think it is a lot of shotgun for the money and it serves our purpose. I used to be a very active clays shooter so we have plenty of clays type shotguns plus a Remington 1100 "Tactical" and a Stoeger 3000 24 inch.

[GuanoLoco]

Maybe out of legal reasons? They had to cope with the S&W M10 and .38 Special too, after all. I think it was in "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights", but
I can look it up in a few days.
I just found it interesting that both, Cirillo and Karwan, prefered the .30 Carbine 110gr. softpoint as a more reliable stopper.

I have a mild itch for a Benelli M2 Tactical with and extended mag tube, but I'd have to admit that my M1 Carbine is a damn sweet HD gun. Tiny gun, 110gr @ 2000 fps x 30 rounds is no joke. Keep one around for my wife.

[LJP]

So far as I know, this is the second query about this shotgun on P-F.com. I made the first a couple of years ago, and got a list of soft-shooting 12 gauge/ammo combinations in return. :o
I was thinking the tactical model SA20 w/a youth stock for the wife.

I would tend to steer away from the 20 ga shotguns for defense only because of one pearl of wisdom that I took away from my seminar with Tom Givens. Namely, due to military and police influence, and the prevalence of the 12 ga in those demographics, almost all ammunition developments and research have been directed toward the 12 ga choices, relegating the 20 ga to sporting purposes. The anti-personnel ammunition choices are going to be far superior in 12 ga vs 20 ga.


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[ranger]

I think the point is not that the 20 gauge is superior to the 12 gauge but an option and possibly a better option for those of smaller physical size. 20 gauge buckshot with 9 pellets of #1 is nothing to sneeze at. Will the 12 vs 20 be the new 45 vs 9?

[pdb]

What do you folks prefer for spare shell carriage? What do you find works for your situation? On the gun, on the belt?

[Lester Polfus]

What do you folks prefer for spare shell carriage? What do you find works for your situation? On the gun, on the belt?

I wound up taking side saddles off my gun. While I completely agree that they are the most efficient speed wise, I dislike the way they affect the balance of the gun, and had an incident where doing a quick clear of a trailer home where I slammed the side saddle against a door frame and broke it. Reasonable minds can differ.

I use a stock pouch with elastic loops inside. I keep the pouch unzipped. I have found that when I'm crawling through thick brush and such, I'm much less likely to leave a trail of dropped shells behind me than with a elastic cuff.

Having extra rounds on the butt also keeps me in common with the bolt and lever guns I run.

I also have a mussette bag full of shells as a grab and go.

I also keep a speed strip full of #7.5 shot and another full of #4 buck on top of the safe, for small game and coyotes respectively. I don't have any real intention of doing an emergency reload out of the strips, it's just a way to keep different types of ammo organized.

Speedfeed stocks suck. I never figured out a way to use one where I didn't wind up with a round hitting the deck a significant amount of the time.

[GJM]

I consider extra ammo for the shotgun as largely administrative, because in most situations I am dumping it for a handgun, rather than trying to reload with time pressure.

[SamAdams]

I have side saddles & butt stock mounted loop carriers. They're 'o.k.' but, I don't really like the way they affect handling feel. I prefer a belt & keep one next to the homestead defense shotgun. Maybe I'm just used to it after years of carrying ammo this way in the field.


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[John Hearne]

Given the relatively limited capacity of the typical shotgun, I think that NOT having spare ammo on the gun is stupid and ignores hard won lessons like Newhall and Miami - especially for folks working in the law enforcement context.

[GJM]

Given the relatively limited capacity of the typical shotgun, I think that NOT having spare ammo on the gun is stupid and ignores hard won lessons like Newhall and Miami - especially for folks working in the law enforcement context.

Do you mean ammo literally on the shotgun or on your person?

[GJM]

Given the relatively limited capacity of the typical shotgun, I think that NOT having spare ammo on the gun is stupid and ignores hard won lessons like Newhall and Miami - especially for folks working in the law enforcement context.

Do you mean ammo literally on the shotgun or on your person?

[ranger]

On the SA20, I do not have extra shells as its purpose it to be small and light. On my Remington 1100 "Tactical" I use a side saddle. I took a couple of "tactical" shotgun classes and you can load off the side saddle pretty fast. Also, I keep a couple of slugs in the side saddle.

[BN]

As for semi auto vs. pump. Around here we often have man vs man shotgun shoot offs. Sometimes 4, 5 or more Pepper Poppers or other knock down steel with crossover Poppers to determine the winner. First one to knock down all their steel and their cross over on the bottom is the winner. When Rob Haught shows up, he brings his 1100. ;)

[SamAdams]

My point about the pump gun is that a man so-armed, doesn't only have what's equivalent to a pointy stick. For those who don't want to spend $1000+ on a shotgun (pistol and carbine are their primary tools), there are very viable alternatives.


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[GJM]

My point about the pump gun is that a man so-armed, doesn't only have what's equivalent to a pointy stick. For those who don't want to spend $1000+ on a shotgun (pistol and carbine are their primary tools), there are very viable alternatives.


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I think we all agree it is the Indian not the arrow, but in the case of the pump, those are specialized skills that need to be developed and maintained. I also think it is unrealistic to think any old pump runs slick. I spent way too much time and money obsessing over 870 actions, getting them so just pressing the release, would cause them to almost fully cycle on their own. Remington quality declines surely haven't helped with this.

As to carrying ammo on the shotgun, I used to strongly believe the bolt action rifle and shotgun should carry extra ammo. After losing most of the ammo across hill and dale, I have gone to body carry of ammo. Also, for those shooting Benelli inertia shotguns, hanging crap on them does nothing good for reliability. Fortunately, there are many good ways to carry extra shotgun ammo today.

17892

[SamAdams]

I think we all agree it is the Indian not the arrow, but in the case of the pump, those are specialized skills that need to be developed and maintained. I also think it is unrealistic to think any old pump runs slick. I spent way too much time and money obsessing over 870 actions, getting them so just pressing the release, would cause them to almost fully cycle on their own. Remington quality declines surely haven't helped with this.

As to carrying ammo on the shotgun, I used to strongly believe the bolt action rifle and shotgun should carry extra ammo. After losing most of the ammo across hill and dale, I have gone to body carry of ammo. Also, for those shooting Benelli inertia shotguns, hanging crap on them does nothing good for reliability. Fortunately, there are many good ways to carry extra shotgun ammo today.

17892

My 870s are older versions. I've heard that Remington quality has gone down lately, but I don't have new guns so can't comment. (Of course, quality issues can make a helluva difference. I dumped Sig pistols years ago because of that. I hear their newer pistols are much better.)
Personally, I've never had any problems getting my older 870s to run well. But, I've shot pump guns since I was a youngster and have done any tweaking on my own.
The Benellis I have used are the Nova pump and the older Super Black Eagle. Looks like Benelli has done some things with their buttstocks on the newer guns to soften up perceived recoil. I haven't tried one yet. A buddy recently bought one, so I look forward to shooting it.

[Dagga Boy]

Given the relatively limited capacity of the typical shotgun, I think that NOT having spare ammo on the gun is stupid and ignores hard won lessons like Newhall and Miami - especially for folks working in the law enforcement context.

I think this is very true for the LE/Mil guys or "offensive" users. For home defense, and field use, I think we need to consider some handling trade off's. Knowing how GJM carries his M2, I wouldn't use a side saddle. On my new M2 3 gun, it is set up fairly slick. It will fill a bunch of rolls. It will get a Velcro sheet on the left side so I can put ammo on the gun with removable cards, but I foresee running it mostly slick. My primary 870 is set up with a very old steel backed side saddle that is simply part of the gun and nothing I would ever take off.

As far as "Current State of the Shotgun". This guy is my old shooting partner. We shot every night after work. Primary Sniper instructor and a long time SWAT Team member and sniper. Great with a rifle, and can actually hold sub 1/2 MOA as his norm. This is exactly what he carries daily. M4, with all slug. He is worried about crooks with cover, and also in his area wants to use minimal rounds. Almost all the other LEO's carry AR's, so there are plenty. Guys who can put a .70 caliber golf ball anywhere they want....few and far between. It is likely exactly what I would be running if I went back to cop work. I had my patrol rifles set up as DMR's to simply own perimeters and anything distance related and to control areas, and used an 870 for hunting crooks indoors and in most hi risk scenarios.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I think this is very true for the LE/Mil guys or "offensive" users. For home defense, and field use, I think we need to consider some handling trade off's. Knowing how GJM carries his M2, I wouldn't use a side saddle. On my new M2 3 gun, it is set up fairly slick. It will fill a bunch of rolls. It will get a Velcro sheet on the left side so I can put ammo on the gun with removable cards, but I foresee running it mostly slick. My primary 870 is set up with a very old steel backed side saddle that is simply part of the gun and nothing I would ever take off.

As far as "Current State of the Shotgun". This guy is my old shooting partner. We shot every night after work. Primary Sniper instructor and a long time SWAT Team member and sniper. Great with a rifle, and can actually hold sub 1/2 MOA as his norm. This is exactly what he carries daily. M4, with all slug. He is worried about crooks with cover, and also in his area wants to use minimal rounds. Almost all the other LEO's carry AR's, so there are plenty. Guys who can put a .70 caliber golf ball anywhere they want....few and far between. It is likely exactly what I would be running if I went back to cop work. I had my patrol rifles set up as DMR's to simply own perimeters and anything distance related and to control areas, and used an 870 for hunting crooks indoors and in most hi risk scenarios.

Looks like he's using the full strength LOP, too!


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[GyroF-16]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4340-12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-LE-duty-use

Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 OR LARGER SIZE offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential...

The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrate in the 14-18 inch range.


DocGKR- can you share what makes the Federal #1 buck your "IDEAL" terminal performer? In which aspects is it superior to Fed 00 buck?
I trust your science, and I respect your professional opinion- I'd just like to know what I'm gaining when I reach past the 00 and grab the #1 for my HD shotgun. (I have a stock of both, and the #1 is there because of your recommendation).

[John Hearne]

Do you mean ammo literally on the shotgun or on your person?

My preference is to have the ammunition physically attached to the shotgun unless you're willing to carry it 24/7. Most fights are going to be won with what's in/on the gun and on your person.

[Bigghoss]

I agree on short LOP, but still it is easy to conceive of situations where LOP changes dramatically, like when you are packing 100 pounds of moose meat in your Mystery Ranch Crew Cab with big padded shoulders straps, you are wearing every layer you have, or you have only one arm available because you are holding a leash or a creature is nibbling on your other arm.

My wife is a really skilled overall shooter of handguns and rifles, many of large caliber. She has taken shotgun training with Louis Awerbuck, Randy Cain and others. Still, she despises a pump shotgun. The Benelli appeals to her, as she refers to it as a shoulder fired Glock -- press the trigger until the threat is over or it runs dry, dump it on the ground, and carry on with the pistol. I am different, in that I am excited by new systems. Still, these days it is always a semi auto I grab when I am headed into the field around bears.

I had not considered that as my shotgun rarely sees the great outdoors besides the range. Of course most of that doesn't even apply to me but the end user really does need to think about that.

[ssb]

What do you folks prefer for spare shell carriage? What do you find works for your situation? On the gun, on the belt?

For me, and strictly for HD use, I keep a buttstock shell carrier on the gun. I have an old claymore mine bag I picked up at a surplus store that's got buckshot in one pouch and a trauma kit stuffed in the other. That hangs right next to the gun, so I can grab it easily and move to my chosen position. I don't do a lot of the cool stuff others here do (non-LEO, non-Alaskan adventurer).

[coldcase1984]

Sherman, I didn't know black bear were being sighted in Metro Nashville. Knew they were getting to east side of The Highland Rim; have seen tracks below Monteagle's western slopes.

I've been given permission to put a T1 on my 12.5-in. work 870 and look forward to having it on and off duty.

Put a Magpul forearm on it, and following George's comments, will now add a matching stock, prolly w the low cheek riser.e

Ordering some Black Magic Brennies to demonstrate superior penetration on auto coach work for rest of instructors next week.

This is a good thread, fellow P-Fers!

[coldcase1984]

Since earlier photos are gone to Photobucket hell, here is her M2 20 gauge.

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I am quite interested in the forthcoming Ampoint S1 Darryl has mentioned, as it will drop low right on the vent rib. Previously, my opinion was that a bear has to touch you to hurt you, but I have spent so much time behind a pistol and carbine dot in USPSA, I am most comfortable with a red dot.

George, I must say this 20-gauge is cute as a speckled pup! Could you describe the exact setup, please.

I saw an M2 20 bird gun gathering dust at a nearby pawnshop a few months back. May have to see if the owner has lowered the price in this buyers' market.

[GJM]

George, I must say this 20-gauge is cute as a speckled pup! Could you describe the exact setup, please.

I saw an M2 20 bird gun gathering dust at a nearby pawnshop a few months back. May have to see if the owner has lowered the price in this buyers' market.

For me, the key was starting with the right model that came with the Comfortech youth sized stock. However, that was for my wife, and you might be fine with a regular Comfertech with a thin recoil pad. The stock is expensive enough you don't want to have to buy it as an accessory. Next, look at the vent rib spacing, and figure out what works best to cut it to your desired length. On the 12 gauge models, for example, the 21 inch VR nicely cuts to 14 inches.

Then decide Aimpoint, possibly in a Scalarworks mount or the new S1, that attaches to the rib, or iron sights. Mine are a Beretta 92A1 HD inletted into the rib and something Brockman made for the rear. Ashley also makes something. Maybe add Nordic sling and light mounts to your stock fore end or an extended tube. Nordic extended tube. Just add Brenneke slugs and you are done.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Sherman, I didn't know black bear were being sighted in Metro Nashville. Knew they were getting to east side of The Highland Rim; have seen tracks below Monteagle's western slopes.

I've been given permission to put a T1 on my 12.5-in. work 870 and look forward to having it on and off duty.

Put a Magpul forearm on it, and following George's comments, will now add a matching stock, prolly w the low cheek riser.e

Ordering some Black Magic Brennies to demonstrate superior penetration on auto coach work for rest of instructors next week.

This is a good thread, fellow P-Fers!

I hope there aren't any in metro Nashville! I live there, but my practice is in the foothills of the Smokies and I commute.


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[GJM]

I hope there aren't any in metro Nashville! I live there, but my practice is in the foothills of the Smokies and I commute.


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Bears perform the same function for outdoorsy country boys, that viagra does for city slickers.

[coldcase1984]

Dang Sherman! I turned down a job w Vandy PR to become cop (for much less money) just because Didn't wanna drive 80 mile round trip every day!

Stamp for my personal 870 due any day now. Thinking about some AA walnut for a bespoke shorty, maybe NP3 the metal. Barbecue Blaster.

[Nephrology]

Bears perform the same function for outdoorsy country boys, that viagra does for city slickers.

What, cause completely avoidable trips to the ER?

[GJM]

What, cause completely avoidable trips to the ER?

Ha, no "bears" is just a complete explanation for a lot of silly stuff that country boys do.

[OlongJohnson]

Second hand information here, but... One of my friends who got me into shooting put together a 20ga for his 13-year-old daughter to train with. It's lighter, which is nice to carry, but that weight absorbs less recoil. Most of the 20ga rounds that are suitable for defense are loaded hot, trying to hang with 12ga performance, so the felt recoil ends up being not usefully less than the 12ga. His advice is to not bother with the 20 and just sort out some low-recoil loads for the 12, if the shooter is smaller and/or recoil sensitive. Kinda echoing the "not what I was asking" responses mentioned earlier.

Of course, Mrs. GJM does whatever she thinks is best.

[OlongJohnson]

Ha, no "bears" is just a complete explanation for a lot of silly stuff that country boys do.

When will @Tam be along to condemn this as a "bear thread"?

[blues]

When will @Tam be along to condemn this as a "bear thread"?

You mean that fine and peerless lass, Tam O' Banter?

[SamAdams]

Second hand information here, but... One of my friends who got me into shooting put together a 20ga for his 13-year-old daughter to train with. It's lighter, which is nice to carry, but that weight absorbs less recoil. Most of the 20ga rounds that are suitable for defense are loaded hot, trying to hang with 12ga performance, so the felt recoil ends up being not usefully less than the 12ga. His advice is to not bother with the 20 and just sort out some low-recoil loads for the 12, if the shooter is smaller and/or recoil sensitive. Kinda echoing the "not what I was asking" responses mentioned earlier.

Of course, Mrs. GJM does whatever she thinks is best.

Maybe something in a 20 gauge gas gun would be the way to go.

[GJM]

Second hand information here, but... One of my friends who got me into shooting put together a 20ga for his 13-year-old daughter to train with. It's lighter, which is nice to carry, but that weight absorbs less recoil. Most of the 20ga rounds that are suitable for defense are loaded hot, trying to hang with 12ga performance, so the felt recoil ends up being not usefully less than the 12ga. His advice is to not bother with the 20 and just sort out some low-recoil loads for the 12, if the shooter is smaller and/or recoil sensitive. Kinda echoing the "not what I was asking" responses mentioned earlier.

Of course, Mrs. GJM does whatever she thinks is best.

I think your friend's advice is generally pretty good. The M2 20 though, is thinner in girth than the 12, lighter in weight than the 12, and the Brenneke slugs in 20 are actually pleasant to shoot, compared to not being pleasant in 12. The great news is, I think the 20 gauge Brenneke slugs will penetrate a skull just as well as 12.

[John Hearne]

The cost of entry is kind of steep but if you want a 20 gauge semi-auto gas gun set up for social work, there is at least one option:

http://www.rivendellsales.com/Shotgun.html

[Sherman A. House DDS]

The cost of entry is kind of steep but if you want a 20 gauge semi-auto gas gun set up for social work, there is at least one option:

http://www.rivendellsales.com/Shotgun.html

I like it. I've used other 1100 20 gauges that were setup to be compact, and I always thought they handled like an M1 carbine. Which is to say, about as well as a compact long gun can be.


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[BillSWPA]

What do we think of tritium sights on a shotgun? I have no experience with them on a shotgun. I would not be without them on a handgun but have found them too wide for good accuracy on a rifle.



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[GyroF-16]

What, cause completely avoidable trips to the ER?

Oh- do tell!

[Lester Polfus]

What do we think of tritium sights on a shotgun? I have no experience with them on a shotgun. I would not be without them on a handgun but have found them too wide for good accuracy on a rifle.



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I don't know that I would put them in the "must have category" but they are nice. My shotgun is equipped with a white light, so you can see the sight silhouetted against the target when the light is on. I do like having a tritium bead in case the light takes a dump, or for situations where it might be advantageous to not activate the light.

[Nephrology]

Oh- do tell!

It's not pleasant (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/437237-treatment).

[GyroF-16]

It's not pleasant (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/437237-treatment).

Okay- that doesn't sound like any fun for anyone involved...

[Nephrology]

Okay- that doesn't sound like any fun for anyone involved...

Oh I promise you it's not. Aspirating clots of blood out of someone's penis is not something I will soon forget

[blues]

Oh I promise you it's not. Aspirating clots of blood out of someone's penis is not something I will soon forget

Let's please not go there. I grew up in the 60's and 70's during the free love revolution. If I start getting flashbacks I'm coming for you, Neph! ;)

[FrankinCA]

Civilian here as well:

I'm in CA, due to political/legal climate, for SD, 12 gauge is more feasible. I only have pistols, but if I felt the need, I'd certainly get a shotgun. Ammunition can be sourced at Big 5 and pretty much legal statewide.

[Lester Polfus]

Oh I promise you it's not. Aspirating clots of blood out of someone's penis is not something I will soon forget

This is one of the many reasons why I am not a health care professional.

"You need your penis aspirated? That sucks. I hope you find somebody to help you with that."

I'm guessing that's not ok to say to a patient...

[mtnbkr]

Back to shotguns...

I went to a local indoor range with a trio of new shooters and took my 870 HD gun along for the ride. We ran 30-40 rounds of Federal FliteControl 00 buck and 15 slugs through it at 15yds. I practiced my tactical reloads and just generally reacquainted myself with the gun. I find this gun more satisfying to shoot than my AR, probably because it feels like I'm actually shooting something. :cool:

Chris

[peterb]

Second hand information here, but... One of my friends who got me into shooting put together a 20ga for his 13-year-old daughter to train with. It's lighter, which is nice to carry, but that weight absorbs less recoil. Most of the 20ga rounds that are suitable for defense are loaded hot, trying to hang with 12ga performance, so the felt recoil ends up being not usefully less than the 12ga. His advice is to not bother with the 20 and just sort out some low-recoil loads for the 12, if the shooter is smaller and/or recoil sensitive.

I'd agree with that. 3" buck out of a light youth 20-gauge pump was not something I want to repeat.

My experience with smaller shooters is that they can often handle a heavier gun if the size and balance is correct. People see a small person leaning backwards with the gun shouldered and think "she needs a lighter gun." What she needs is a gun that fits.

My wife has tiny hands, and most 12s are just too big for her to grasp well, so a 20 made sense. For a defensive load we settled on the Federal 2 3/4" #4 buck load as the best compromise between recoil and effectiveness at inside-the-house distances.

A small gas auto 20 would be nice.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Preceded by John's comment on needing to have spare ammunition on the gun ...

Do you mean ammo literally on the shotgun or on your person?

I'm going to affirm John's statement and answer. Considering what a number of folks ahead of me have said - Haggard being one in this forum - You very well my not have the time to grab the spare ammo carrier, etc. You're very likely to end up fighting with whatever you actually have. Ammunition "on you" may not be there & if it isn't on that day, then you're limited to the contents of the gun.
When we spec'd our newest shotguns at work ('03/'04 era), the SideSaddle was part of the set-up just to ensure there was a reload on the gun any time it came out of the car. (My work ARs are set-up with the Redi-Mod for the same reason).
My recollection of Bill Jeans (Obi Wan to Louis' Yoda) shotgun set-up involved a bandoleer draped in such a way that one reached thru it to grab the gun and that allowed one to put on the ammo carrier immediately - regardless of dress.

It has been mentioned, if you live in Cal or similar settings a shotgun may, just may, make your life a whole lot easier in the aftermath of an event. Especially if compared to how a magazine fed, center fire rifle or carbine turns out to be viewed.

GJM's (and others) Brenneke slugs perform quite nicely against vehicles, whether glass or body.

I need to revisit the idea of RDS on a shotgun. I tried going through a Bill Jeans' shotgun class in '08 with a Comp M4 on an 870 and was woefully unimpressed when compared to the factory Ghost Rings. However, that probably had something to do with the mount height.

The MagPul furniture has somethings going for it. Especially their forearm & a light mount vs the SF dedicated 6v set-ups.

[mtnbkr]

Preceded by John's comment on needing to have spare ammunition on the gun ...
The MagPul furniture has somethings going for it. Especially their forearm & a light mount vs the SF dedicated 6v set-ups.

My shotgun is full Magpul and I have a Surefire 3p LED clone mounted with a rail adapter and 1" scope ring. The light's button is right in front of my thumb when I grab the forend. No need for remote switches or anything.

Chris

[GJM]

Preceded by John's comment on needing to have spare ammunition on the gun ...


I'm going to affirm John's statement and answer. Considering what a number of folks ahead of me have said - Haggard being one in this forum - You very well my not have the time to grab the spare ammo carrier, etc. You're very likely to end up fighting with whatever you actually have. Ammunition "on you" may not be there & if it isn't on that day, then you're limited to the contents of the gun.
When we spec'd our newest shotguns at work ('03/'04 era), the SideSaddle was part of the set-up just to ensure there was a reload on the gun any time it came out of the car. (My work ARs are set-up with the Redi-Mod for the same reason).
My recollection of Bill Jeans (Obi Wan to Louis' Yoda) shotgun set-up involved a bandoleer draped in such a way that one reached thru it to grab the gun and that allowed one to put on the ammo carrier immediately - regardless of dress.

It has been mentioned, if you live in Cal or similar settings a shotgun may, just may, make your life a whole lot easier in the aftermath of an event. Especially if compared to how a magazine fed, center fire rifle or carbine turns out to be viewed.

GJM's (and others) Brenneke slugs perform quite nicely against vehicles, whether glass or body.

I need to revisit the idea of RDS on a shotgun. I tried going through a Bill Jeans' shotgun class in '08 with a Comp M4 on an 870 and was woefully unimpressed when compared to the factory Ghost Rings. However, that probably had something to do with the mount height.

The MagPul furniture has somethings going for it. Especially their forearm & a light mount vs the SF dedicated 6v set-ups.

Even though my shotguns are cased with extra ammo, I am not chancing ridicule if I run out some day! This morning, in honor of my blue friends, I added velcro so I can store my extra ammo attached to the shotgun, and it can come off and be stored in a pocket/pouch, when I grab the shotgun, as desired.

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[Lester Polfus]

Even though my shotguns are cased with extra ammo, I am not chancing ridicule if I run out some day! This morning, in honor of my blue friends, I added velcro so I can store my extra ammo attached to the shotgun, and it can come off and be stored in a pocket/pouch, when I grab the shotgun, as desired.

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17928

17929

Well, that is certainly well timed.

I was thinking last night of revisiting the sidesaddle, using the velcro method. Would you mind sharing which brand you've got there?

[GJM]

Well, that is certainly well timed.

I was thinking last night of revisiting the sidesaddle, using the velcro method. Would you mind sharing which brand you've got there?

I just took some hardware store velcro and attached it to the left side of the Benelli receiver. There are a bunch of different "shotshell cards" that attach to female velcro.

[GuanoLoco]

How much mass (T2 optic, 7 shells on card, mag extension + shells, sling studs, etc.) can you attach before the inertial recoil system is negatively affected?

[BehindBlueI's]

I keep my spare shotgun ammo on my vest for work. It's unlikely I'll have time to deploy the shotgun and not put on my armor.

For my house gun, I have spare ammo in the stock. I'm much more likely to be fighting naked. Literally.

YMMV.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170708/ccb70d1298fa8ca54d6dfe17ad6be1ec.jpg

I recently acquired this. I like it. Much handier than I envisioned. And within the length of a car/our condo, more than adequate accuracy from eye level. I'll work this further until I'll replace the full stock 870. Or, I may file the paperwork and turn into into a snub-nosed shotgun.


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[Olim9]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170708/ccb70d1298fa8ca54d6dfe17ad6be1ec.jpg

I recently acquired this. I like it. Much handier than I envisioned. And within the length of a car/our condo, more than adequate accuracy from eye level. I'll work this further until I'll replace the full stock 870. Or, I may file the paperwork and turn into into a snub-nosed shotgun.


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What kind of front sight is that?

[Sherman A. House DDS]

What kind of front sight is that?

Some brand of FO. I'm ambivalent on it. I might swap it out for a larger than normal brass or ivory bead.


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[GJM]

How much mass (T2 optic, 7 shells on card, mag extension + shells, sling studs, etc.) can you attach before the inertial recoil system is negatively affected?

Good question. A year or so back, we had a PF member with a new to him M1'ish 14 inch, that was having reliability problems that went away as soon as he removed his SF fore end. Multiple M2 shotguns work for me with just a sling, T1/2, simple carry sling and SF Scout light. I do not carry ammo on a M2 for multiple reasons, including worries about reliability, as I have described earlier in this thread. Want to hang the kitchen sink on there, get a M4 Benelli. I carry these shotguns in my hands, hiking up mountains, as opposed to drive them around, so my perspective is going to be different.

Before I forget, I will Velcro but never screw a side saddle on a Benelli M1/2, as tightening it down gives me the willies on a M2.

[Edster]

What do we think of tritium sights on a shotgun? I have no experience with them on a shotgun. I would not be without them on a handgun but have found them too wide for good accuracy on a rifle.



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I have Ameriglo green front/yellow rears on a rifle-sighted 870P. I like them more than a bead and much more than the stock Remington rifle sights.

Compared to a handgun, the sight radius from front to rear is much longer than a handgun. The rear sight is also closer to my face than with a handgun. With my vision, I get a crisp front sight picture but the rear is more fuzzy than on a handgun.

[JAD]

. And within the length of a car/our condo, more than adequate accuracy from eye level.

With nothing implied and no shade thrown, I would like to understand the technique used for that weapon. I agree that it's handy and want to know how to effectively use it.

[GJM]

Clint Smith talks about it a bit in his video overview of the Mossberg Shockwave:


https://youtu.be/fM_sqSTg2v8

I watched that video a few weeks ago. I love Clint, and I love short shotguns, but no way I am shooting one of those with Brenneke slugs.

[GJM]

Early on in this thread, I mentioned that I view extra shotgun ammo as mostly administrative, with some specialized exceptions, as I can draw my pistol and have a whole magazine of ammo in the time it takes to load one or two shot shells. What are other folks thinking?

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Early on in this thread, I mentioned that I view extra shotgun ammo as mostly administrative, with some specialized exceptions, as I can draw my pistol and have a whole magazine of ammo in the time it takes to load one or two shot shells. What are other folks thinking?

Depends on the distance between me and the threat(S), for one.


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[Sherman A. House DDS]

With nothing implied and no shade thrown, I would like to understand the technique used for that weapon. I agree that it's handy and want to know how to effectively use it.

It's easy. It's not that abusive. If I can get someone to film for me, I'll make a video.


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[TGS]

Early on in this thread, I mentioned that I view extra shotgun ammo as mostly administrative, with some specialized exceptions, as I can draw my pistol and have a whole magazine of ammo in the time it takes to load one or two shot shells. What are other folks thinking?

Situation dependent.

The decision to transition to a secondary is the same as it is with any other long arm. Do you need to shoot something right now, and is it close enough and without cover that you can effect the fight with you pistol? Sure, draw your pistol.

Is the target not visible, do you have friends with guns up, target at a longer distance than you are effective with your pistol, target behind cover requiring a slug? Throw one in the chamber.

[Wondering Beard]

Clint Smith talks about it a bit in his video overview of the Mossberg Shockwave:


https://youtu.be/fM_sqSTg2v8

What he doesn't mention in the video (I've no idea if he teaches the following or not) is that the shooting hand should be pulling back while the support hand pushes and drives the gun, as if you're trying to stretch the gun. It's the Haught/push-pull technique and it makes such a gun real easy to shoot in my experience.


I watched that video a few weeks ago. I love Clint, and I love short shotguns, but no way I am shooting one of those with Brenneke slugs.

I wouldn't either but I wonder, are there slug loads that are as or nearly as penetrative as the Brennekes but that are low recoil?

[GJM]

Situation dependent.

The decision to transition to a secondary is the same as it is with any other long arm. Do you need to shoot something right now, and is it close enough and without cover that you can effect the fight with you pistol? Sure, draw your pistol.

Is the target not visible, do you have friends with guns up, target at a longer distance than you are effective with your pistol, target behind cover requiring a slug? Throw one in the chamber.

This exactly sums up my thinking, and why I plan for my handgun being my primary reload, with extra ammo for admin and special circumstances. Twice with rifles, a .45-70 and .338 WM, I topped off ammo with a grizzly bear. However, each these two instances, I was hunting the bear. In the instance where a grizzly hunted me, it ended without a reload. Since the fight started and ended at 15 yards, there would be a transition to a handgun maybe, but certainly no long gun reload. I think it makes a difference as to whether you get to initiate the fight or are defending against an attack.

[Duelist]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170708/ccb70d1298fa8ca54d6dfe17ad6be1ec.jpg

I recently acquired this. I like it. Much handier than I envisioned. And within the length of a car/our condo, more than adequate accuracy from eye level. I'll work this further until I'll replace the full stock 870. Or, I may file the paperwork and turn into into a snub-nosed shotgun.


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Shooting buddy pulled one of these out of his truck this morning. He has the SBS paperwork filed. It was ... interesting to shoot, but I don't think I want one.

[Lester Polfus]

Once upon a time, I had occasion to do some work with a birds head pgo 14" 870. The way I would put it is this: by bringing one to eye level and sighting down the barrel (as opposed to shooting from the hip) they are accurate enough to shoot a dude from down the hall in my living room, but not accurate enough to shoot if my wife/child is standing in the living room as well.

They benefit tremendously from a single point sling which you push the gun out on.

[JAD]

Clint's video is good. You can just say if your technique differs, to make it easy. I would add isometric tension.

[farscott]

Without a rear sight and no real way to consistently mount the gun, how much variance in POA/POI are people seeing with the TAC-14/Shockwave? I am used to a small amount of shim changing impact with a traditionally-stocked gun, and I know my variation with a TAC-14 is going to be a lot more than the thickness of my stock shims. Yes, the distances are less, but I am struggling with how one can be consistent with one of these guns.

[JAD]

It seems like a fair application for a laser.

[coldcase1984]

Bingo! Laser - light combo makes lot of sense for HD w many platforms.

GJM, what sling sockets have you on that 1301, what's the front setup look like?

[GJM]

Bingo! Laser - light combo makes lot of sense for HD w many platforms.

GJM, what sling sockets have you on that 1301, what's the front setup look like?

I use Nordic, either on their barrel clamp, or inletted into the fore end. Their pic rail would work great for mounting an X-400G.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Clint's video is good. You can just say if your technique differs, to make it easy. I would add isometric tension.

I'm glad you mentioned the isometric tension...

I liken the technique used to shoot this gun as being similar to how one shoots a recurve (or maybe a compound bow...I don't have one) bow and arrow. If that makes sense. I think of the gun as rotating about my front (left) arm. And my right hand pushing forward. The strap on the forend, in addition to being a handstop AND preventing the pump hand from slipping in front of the muzzle, also provides leverage against rotation and rearward travel. It's maybe not for the faint of heart, but it's no .500 S&W Magnum, either.


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[Duelist]

Like I said earlier, I put a few rounds through one yesterday morning. I fail to see enough allure to get me to buy one, but wouldn't mind shooting it again.

The .500? One round, ever, and if I ever do again and a bear is not involved, I will probably slap myself.

[SamAdams]

I'm glad you mentioned the isometric tension...

I liken the technique used to shoot this gun as being similar to how one shoots a recurve (or maybe a compound bow...I don't have one) bow and arrow. If that makes sense. I think of the gun as rotating about my front (left) arm. And my right hand pushing forward. The strap on the forend, in addition to being a handstop AND preventing the pump hand from slipping in front of the muzzle, also provides leverage against rotation and rearward travel. It's maybe not for the faint of heart, but it's no .500 S&W Magnum, either.


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As a bowhunter, that explanation helps a lot. If like a bow, I imagine consistency & knowing how to use it comes with lots of practice.

[UNK]

Reading about the Brenneke slugs not being pleasant to shoot I went to their website was wondering if anyone has shot the "Home defense Bernake"
.http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enforcement-ammunition/thdr-tactical-home-defense/
It says all the energy dumped in 13 inches so I would assume these would still go completely through a person.
What is the recommenced load for a home defense shotgun?

[ssb]

Reading about the Brenneke slugs not being pleasant to shoot I went to their website was wondering if anyone has shot the "Home defense Bernake"
.http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enforcement-ammunition/thdr-tactical-home-defense/
It says all the energy dumped in 13 inches so I would assume these would still go completely through a person.
What is the recommenced load for a home defense shotgun?

I have some of the THDs around. IIRC they're 1oz @ ~1400FPS. To me they felt about like full-power buckshot in the recoil department. Not magnum and not low recoil stuff either.

DocGKR recommends the Federal FliteControl in #1B (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1B) , and I suppose the 00B offerings would also be acceptable.

I personally prefer unplated low-recoil 8-pellet buck. The Remington load patterns at about 4" at 7yds for me, so a little less slug-like. From my own observation, my thought is that the unplated buck is a little less of a hazard when it comes to common home materials. I've seen it stopped by siding before.

[SamAdams]

I watched that video a few weeks ago. I love Clint, and I love short shotguns, but no way I am shooting one of those with Brenneke slugs.

The gun acquisition addict part of me contemplates getting one of those after seeing the video. But, for me, if I couldn't effectively use slugs in a defensive shotgun I likely couldn't justify buying one.


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[SeriousStudent]

Reading about the Brenneke slugs not being pleasant to shoot I went to their website was wondering if anyone has shot the "Home defense Bernake"
.http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enforcement-ammunition/thdr-tactical-home-defense/
It says all the energy dumped in 13 inches so I would assume these would still go completely through a person.
What is the recommenced load for a home defense shotgun?

That is one of the two slugs I prefer. Jackdog (another member here) gave me some, and they are my new faves. The other is the Federal TruBall Deep Penetrator slug, as recommended by DocGKR.

Also following the good doctor's suggestions, I have switched over to the Federal Flite Control #1 Buck load. It patterns very well in all my shotguns, which makes logistics much simpler.

[UNK]

I get the use of slugs for LEO and GJM's rogue bears but where does the slug fit into the home defense scenario?

[SamAdams]

I get the use of slugs for LEO and GJM's rogue bears but where does the slug fit into the home defense scenario?

In my own personal situation - slugs offer extended range, better barrier penetration, and big critter (bear)defense capabilities. All these are relevant to my physical environment and needs. That may not be so for others.

[Wondering Beard]

I get the use of slugs for LEO and GJM's rogue bears but where does the slug fit into the home defense scenario?

They don't at all in mine. I live in an urban/suburban area and I can't even imagine a scenario where I would need the penetrative power of a slug inside my house.

Slugs, in my daily life, at best would be used for shooting into bad guys' cars and that would most likely happen in a fantasy scenario about taking down terrorists doing a London/Nice type of attack (where somehow I find myself standing in the street with a shotgun in hand). In other words, the use of slugs, for me, is a lot more conceptual than real.

[txdpd]

I get the use of slugs for LEO and GJM's rogue bears but where does the slug fit into the home defense scenario?

In the same spot as Flitecontrol buckshot. You may not "need" it for most home defense scenarios but they will certainly work.

It's already been mentioned but not all slugs are created equally. The 1600fps swaged foster slugs are fairly fragile and pretty poor penetrators and most will not consistently meet FBI standards. They have a pretty good track record in the real world. Other than the recoil, high velocity foster slugs (or the Winchester segmented slug) aren't a bad choice.

[UNK]

In the same spot as Flitecontrol buckshot. You may not "need" it for most home defense scenarios but they will certainly work.

It's already been mentioned but not all slugs are created equally. The 1600fps swaged foster slugs are fairly fragile and pretty poor penetrators and most will not consistently meet FBI standards. They have a pretty good track record in the real world. Other than the recoil, high velocity foster slugs (or the Winchester segmented slug) aren't a bad choice.

Thats interesting. I havent heard before that foster slugs are good against people.

[TGS]

Thats interesting. I havent heard before that foster slugs are good against people.

They were invented to hunt light skinned animals.

A human is a light skinned animal.

Fosters can expand or deform. Depending on the load, you could be looking at over an inch expanded diameter and 14" of penetration.

[blues]

They were invented to hunt light skinned animals.

A human is a light skinned animal.

Fosters can expand or deform. Depending on the load, you could be looking at over an inch expanded diameter and 14" of penetration.

That'll leave a mark.

[UNK]

They were invented to hunt light skinned animals.

A human is a light skinned animal.

Fosters can expand or deform. Depending on the load, you could be looking at over an inch expanded diameter and 14" of penetration.

Wow Amazing. So out of the Fosters which are the best ones?

[TGS]

Wow Amazing. So out of the Fosters which are the best ones?

I haven't looked into it deeply enough to say which is the best, but my simple understanding is that most reduced recoil 12ga Foster slugs will not expand or deform significantly due to their slower speed, and even with the full power loads it's not consistent. Sometimes the full power Foster slugs will break apart, instead.

[UNK]

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=3828



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuVkXLreWE

[OlongJohnson]

Found that Brenneke PDF that is sometimes thought to have gone missing. Or at least one that matches the general descriptions I've seen.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/fileadmin/user_upload/brenneke/Downloads/Catalog_USA/Law_Enforcement_Catalog_2014.pdf

[GJM]

Good get!

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I had no idea Brenneke has been in the slug game since the 1890's. Pretty cool!


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[OlongJohnson]

Lots of people have had issues ordering from Botach, but I've had good results when they are pushing an item because they just bought a bunch of it and want to move it.

Here's their trade-in deal on Benelli M1 Super 90 12ga 14" SBS, for people who don't mind paying a little extra tax.

https://www.botach.com/department-used-benelli-m1-super-90-12ga-14-sbs/

[txdpd]

Wow Amazing. So out of the Fosters which are the best ones?

The ones that group well in your shotgun.

The high velocity loads are pushing the slugs past their structural limits, kind of like the 125gr .357 Magnum hollow points of lore. The slugs usually break into pieces or turn into donuts. You're going to eat a lot of recoil pushing a slug to perform like reduced recoil buckshot. If that's what you got, they're not a bad choice, but there are better options out there.

The reduced recoil fosters usually stay together and penetrate a little better.

[mtnbkr]

What do you guys think of the Federal Deep Penetrator Truball loads? Those work well in my 870 and are more available locally than the more tactical-oriented Brenneke offerings. If I were to deploy a slug, it would be against dangerous game, barriers, or mechanized equipment, so I think I want penetration first.

Chris

[TGS]

What do you guys think of the Federal Deep Penetrator Truball loads? Those work well in my 870 and are more available locally than the more tactical-oriented Brenneke offerings. If I were to deploy a slug, it would be against dangerous game, barriers, or mechanized equipment, so I think I want penetration first.

Chris

DocGKR gave it the thumbs up as an "approved" slug: 12 Gauge Shotgun Loads for LE Duty Use (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4340-12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-LE-duty-use)

[coldcase1984]

I described the reaction of a large deer receiving a Brenneke Black Magic Magnum at 35 yards awhile ago. Have never shot a deer or other large mammal with a Foster slug.

Did, however, shoot a 125-lb. doe once with a 300 grain WW JHP from a first-year Marlin Guide Gun. She took two wobbly steps and collapsed then thrashed a few seconds. The bigly mushroomed core was caught under the far side skin after blowing a tomato can sized hole through the top of the heart and lungs.

The post-mortem revealed, however, a perfectly round .70ish hole in her neck that was healing around the edges so that it looked singed. Underneath was pink healthy flesh that looked undisturbed. There was no exit on the other side nor lead found in her flesh.

Having heard a shotgun-like boom a couple weeks prior during muzzleloader, essaying from a turd-licking neighbor's property... then quickly followed a couple minutes later by two more quick blasts, I Sherlocked that shite-wagon.

I knew he couldn't shoot worth a damn when we were kids, so believe he somehow thumped her in the neck with a slug, which knocked her down. As he finished hurriedly getting out of the ladder stand she recovered and ran away and he missed twice.

If a doe's neck about the circumference of my puny old bicep can stop a slug, in some cases, I'd prefer at least a hardcast slug at "tactical" 1100ish for social justice interactions.

[ssb]

For those of you using this as a bedside/similar gun, what sort of arrangement do you have for secure storage -- if any?

I'd like a quick-access lockable thing, as I've unintentionally left the gun out a few times when getting out the door in a hurry. Frankly, if I could mount a police car gun rack or something along those lines, I'd be all over it. I'm curious if there are some vetted options that are relatively compact.

[TGS]

For those of you using this as a bedside/similar gun, what sort of arrangement do you have for secure storage -- if any?

I'd like a quick-access lockable thing, as I've unintentionally left the gun out a few times when getting out the door in a hurry. Frankly, if I could mount a police car gun rack or something along those lines, I'd be all over it. I'm curious if there are some vetted options that are relatively compact.

Ask and ye shall receive:

https://www.shotlock.com/ShotLock_Shotgun.php

[David S.]

AMSEC and Monster Vault make really nice under bed safes. The AMSEC is just big enough for a single long gun. A HD shotgun would fit fine, as long as you don't have anything hanging off the side. A carbine might be tight, not sure. The Monster Vault can hold significantly more, but is really big. We went with the Monster, but had to put blocks under the bed to make room for it.

We keep it locked during the day (rugrats) and unlocked at night.

[txdpd]

The post-mortem revealed, however, a perfectly round .70ish hole in her neck that was healing around the edges so that it looked singed. Underneath was pink healthy flesh that looked undisturbed. There was no exit on the other side nor lead found in her flesh.


One year we had ticks really bad and our goats had ulcers from infected tick bites that looked like that when they started to heal. Stranger things a slug bouncing off an animal have certainly happened.

I haven't had any problems with reduced recoil foster slugs on pigs out to 75 yards. They punch all the way through, but these are small 60-80lb pigs.

[OlongJohnson]

Found a set of Williams ghost ring fire sights for 80% off at the local Gander Mountain clearance, which made them $6.00 plus tax. Put them on an 870 Express barrel that had factory rifle sights. Super easy swap. It's amazing how much faster that rear ring aperture is than the notch. Would be worth it even at a normal price.

[NoLock]

Can someone expand on the context of where these 14 inch shockwave pump guns fit and make sense. They are now surprisingly legal in my state, don't need to go on my permit, I'm frugal, and trying to justify the purchase of one beyond just being a fun range gun. ;)

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Can someone expand on the context of where these 14 inch shockwave pump guns fit and make sense. They are now surprisingly legal in my state, don't need to go on my permit, I'm frugal, and trying to justify the purchase of one beyond just being a fun range gun. ;)

This is how I see it...
1. Staged in my business for robbery response
2. Brought on fishing trips to dispatch halibut before they wreck the boat
3. Replace/supplant all of the PGO 12 gauges across the land with a birdshead grip that shooting doesn't make you want to eat 100 Motrin and wear a bowling wrist guard for a week
4. Any other task you may require a 12 gauge for inside of 20 yards, and require a highly portable solution
5. And, like I mentioned in previous posts, in my former life as a shotgun messenger, I would've gladly used this as a counter ambush weapon. You can't really appreciate how handy it is until you hold it.


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[RMF]

This is how I see it...
1. Staged in my business for robbery response
2. Brought on fishing trips to dispatch halibut before they wreck the boat
3. Replace/supplant all of the PGO 12 gauges across the land with a birdshead grip that shooting doesn't make you want to eat 100 Motrin and wear a bowling wrist guard for a week
4. Any other task you may require a 12 gauge for inside of 20 yards, and require a highly portable solution
5. And, like I mentioned in previous posts, in my former life as a shotgun messenger, I would've gladly used this as a counter ambush weapon. You can't really appreciate how handy it is until you hold it.


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Yes, fully agree. I recently bought a Tac-14 and its surprising how handy and easy to shoot they are.

[GJM]

What I like, is along with AR pistols and the like, it floods 'merica with short barrel stuff, making them all very common. At some point, they ought to give up on SBR/SBS registration.

[UNK]

To stir the pot a bit more. Shockwaves are out of stock at buds.
https://www.remington.com/other-products/model-870-tac-14
18051