Why no 14.5" pencil barrel with carbine length gas system?

[frozentundra]

I'm looking to get a lightweight, fast handling AR to tote around with me while living out of motels for work. I have a 16" BCM ELW-F with the original magnesium 13" KMR handguard, which I really like, but don't want to take a chance on getting stolen while traveling. My other knockaround AR went to a relative who wanted to try out the platform.

My first thought was to simply buy a Colt 6720, but then it occurred to me that I could just buy a barreled upper and use my current BCM bolt carrier group, charging handle and lower. Eventually I can piece it together into another complete rifle as sales happen. I have two more semesters of trade school coming up in the fall, so I'm trying to be somewhat thrifty for the time being. After that I'll probably be back on the road for a while and money will be much less tight.

So I started looking at the options available. Everybody makes 16", M4 profile, carbine length gas systems. Quite a few 14.5", M4 profile, carbine length gas options. Many 16", lightweight, middy gas options. Some 14.5", lightweight, middy gas. But no(that I could find) 14.5" lightweight, carbine length gas options.

Why can't I get a barrel and gas system length equal to that of the proven M4, but with a lighter barrel profile? Is there something I'm not understanding about why this is a bad idea?

And does anybody know how much weight savings there is between a 14.5" M4 profile barrel vs a 14.5" lightweight profile barrel vs a 16" lightweight profile barrel?

I could just buy a BCM 14.5" pencil barrel with mid length gas and a welded bcm comp, but I'm a little sceptical of reliability with this configuration.

What is your preferred configuration for a light, handy AR?

[Beat Trash]

For what you're want to do, I would just look for a sale on a Colt 6720 and be done.

The savings in OAL from a 16" gun to a 14.5" with a pinned and welded flash suppressor, to me, isn't enough to get excited about.

[Bart Carter]

...I could just buy a BCM 14.5" pencil barrel with mid length gas and a welded bcm comp, but I'm a little sceptical of reliability with this configuration.

What is your preferred configuration for a light, handy AR?
I have built 4 rifles with the BCM lightweight 14.5" barrel (used different comp), all 4 run perfectly and shoot about 1 MOA. Why would you think BCM products do not have good reliability? One of the reasons I used the BCM mid length was the good reviews. Use their recommended buffer/spring and use good ammo. My wife's first rifle class she was hitting man-sized steel at 200 yards with a Vortex Venom 3 MOA red dot on day one. I have no problem recommending BCM mid length.

I weigh everything in a build, the 14" EWLF barrel was 20.56 ounces. Total rifle with BUIS was 5.62 lbs. The red dot added another 2.72 ounces.

[Kram]

Brownells has the Daniel Defense 14.5" lightweight carbine barrel in stock.....

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/ar-15-m16-5-56-hammer-forged-barrels-prod41976.aspx

[schüler]

I would have bet $100 BCM still offered 14.5 LW carbine upper - but sure enough I don't see them listed at present. Very few 14.5 carbine gas models now.

I have one of the BCM LW 14.5 middy non-rail w/FSB and A3X. Love the light weight. BCM use a triangular handguard retaining cap which may limit handguard choice if not changed. Pinned FH makes that replacement a chore unless you want to change muzzle device anyway. With H2 buffer and Sprinco blue it's still much sharper recoil than my 14.5 M4 railed middy w/standard carbine buffer and BCE 1.5. Might be a gas port size thing. Zero function issues.

Yes, I prefer 14.5, there is noticeable difference in fitting some spaces better. If it's just a plinker then who cares about the extra 1.5".

[Jay Cunningham]

My favorite non-NFA AR configuration is 14.5" carbine gas with pinned extended A2 FH. It would be nice if Colt made one. BCM did in fact make these uppers in the past, but I think they only make 14.5 midlengths now.

[MolonLabe416]

Have you considered an AR pistol with brace and 9" bbl in 300 BO? Even in 5.56 this might work for your needs. And it has the advantage to being legal to have loaded in your vehicle in most jurisdictions since it's a pistol.

[frozentundra]

I have built 4 rifles with the BCM lightweight 14.5" barrel (used different comp), all 4 run perfectly and shoot about 1 MOA. Why would you think BCM products do not have good reliability? One of the reasons I used the BCM mid length was the good reviews. Use their recommended buffer/spring and use good ammo. My wife's first rifle class she was hitting man-sized steel at 200 yards with a Vortex Venom 3 MOA red dot on day one. I have no problem recommending BCM mid length.

I weigh everything in a build, the 14" EWLF barrel was 20.56 ounces. Total rifle with BUIS was 5.62 lbs. The red dot added another 2.72 ounces.

Thanks for your input and taking the time to post the numbers. It's not that I doubt BCM quality, far from it, but I'm just not sold on the idea of departing from the carbine length gas system on a 14.5" gun specifically. This is the configuration that has proven itself in US military service for so many years.

On a 16" barrel I would go mid length without hesitation. I don't doubt that the majority of the 14.5" run great, but I've heard of enough people having problems with lower power ammo that it gives me pause.

[frozentundra]

Have you considered an AR pistol with brace and 9" bbl in 300 BO? Even in 5.56 this might work for your needs. And it has the advantage to being legal to have loaded in your vehicle in most jurisdictions since it's a pistol.

Yes, I've definitely kicked that idea around until my feet hurt. I just don't want to spend that much money on a project so far outside of my realm of experience right now. Good idea though.

[frozentundra]

So after figuring out that I needed to look at just the barrels and not barrelled uppers for weight listings, the BCM 14.5" M4 barrel is listed at approx. 1lb 10oz. The 14.5 lightweight mid length is listed approx. 1lb 6oz. The 16" lightweight mid length is listed at approx 1lb 7oz.

Brownells has a Daniel Defense lightweight carbine barrel listed at approx 1lb 5.6oz (Thanks to Kram for the link above)

I'm just looking to buy a complete upper sans BCG and CH though.

[Jay Cunningham]

So after figuring out that I needed to look at just the barrels and not barrelled uppers for weight listings, the BCM 14.5" M4 barrel is listed at approx. 1lb 10oz. The 14.5 lightweight mid length is listed approx. 1lb 6oz. The 16" lightweight mid length is listed at approx 1lb 7oz.

Brownells has a Daniel Defense lightweight carbine barrel listed at approx 1lb 5.6oz (Thanks to Kram for the link above)

I'm just looking to buy a complete upper sans BCG and CH though.

I feel your pain. The M4 barrel profile is really F'd up; a continuous taper is nice. I think Noveske used to make them. There's that phrase again: "used to"...

[schüler]

...
On a 16" barrel I would go mid length without hesitation. I don't doubt that the majority of the 14.5" run great, but I've heard of enough people having problems with lower power ammo that it gives me pause.

Running duty or 5.56 ammo it's never been an issue in Texas 16-106F. Keep with original carbine buffer and spring if you're wanting insurance.

[littlejerry]

I feel your pain. The M4 barrel profile is really F'd up; a continuous taper is nice. I think Noveske used to make them. There's that phrase again: "used to"...

Sionics sells complete uppers without BCG. I bought their mid weight continuous profile. Same weight as an 4 but with a continuous cross section. Been totally happy with it.

Not sure who makes their barrels. Haven't heard anything bad about them though.

[Bart Carter]

Colt now offering Colt Combat Unit (CCU) Carbine with mid-length gas system, 15" barrel. I guess Colt decided the reliability is OK on a mid-length. ;)

Colt said it is light weight, slim line and softer shooting.

[Pennzoil]

Sionics sells complete uppers without BCG. I bought their mid weight continuous profile. Same weight as an 4 but with a continuous cross section. Been totally happy with it.

Not sure who makes their barrels. Haven't heard anything bad about them though.

Sionics is good to go!

A number of local agencies have switched to Sionics rifles. I met the owner Josh earlier this year at the range and the guy is genuinely passionate about the quality of product he was selling.

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks for your input and taking the time to post the numbers. It's not that I doubt BCM quality, far from it, but I'm just not sold on the idea of departing from the carbine length gas system on a 14.5" gun specifically. This is the configuration that has proven itself in US military service for so many years.

On a 16" barrel I would go mid length without hesitation. I don't doubt that the majority of the 14.5" run great, but I've heard of enough people having problems with lower power ammo that it gives me pause.

My experience is that uppers that run well with low power ammo (e.g. PMC Gold) are overgassed, and can be problematic suppressed. My 14.5" Mid-length BCM will occasionally short stroke with PMC Gold, but is perfect (suppressed and unsuppressed) with the 5.56-pressure ammo I use.

[ChrisLapre]

Look at Sionics. As Pennzoil mentioned, their quality is second to none. I have a 14.5 mid-length and it's as good as anything currently by the big name guys.

[GJM]

In a perfect world, wouldn't carbine length gas systems be with a 14.5 barrel, and mid-length with a 16 inch barrel?

[Rick62]

Look at Sionics. As Pennzoil mentioned, their quality is second to none. I have a 14.5 mid-length and it's as good as anything currently by the big name guys.

I wasn't aware that Sionics has ever produced a 14.5 mid length. Was it a limited run?

I'll add that my 14.5 mid length BCM has run well. I can't say that it runs any "better" than my Colts (carbine gas system) do, but it doesn't run any worse either. I don't run steel cased, or other ammo that is often noted for its lower pressure (PMC bronze etc). If that's a requirement, I can't offer any data there.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MSparks909]

In a perfect world, wouldn't carbine length gas systems be with a 14.5 barrel, and mid-length with a 16 inch barrel?

Assuming optimum gas port sizes and identical ammo, a 16" middy will feel softer shooting than a 14.5" carbine gas. Same reason a 20" AR will feel softer shooting than the 16" middy. While dwell time is important to reliability it isn't the only part of the equation.

[ChrisLapre]

No. I have a 14.5 pencil barrel mid-length. It's their patrol III series with 14.5 pinned.

[frozentundra]

In a perfect world, wouldn't carbine length gas systems be with a 14.5 barrel, and mid-length with a 16 inch barrel?

This pretty well sums up my preconceived notions on the issue in a single sentence, not that I have any real expertise to draw conclusions from. It's why I was truly surprised when I went looking for a 14.5" lightweight profile, carbine length gas upper, and found....nothing.

Perhaps I need to rethink my understanding of the issue. If BCM and all the other manufactures have gone exclusively to the mid length configuration on 14.5" guns, maybe it's the way to go. They are staking their companies' reputations on that decision after all. Pat Rogers spec'd out a 14.5" mid length for his signature EAG carbine, and Pat certainly knew more about ARs than I can claim to.

I do use .223 62 grain Federal Fusion MSR as the go-to ammo I keep my AR loaded with. I'm not sure how "hot" that ammo is. I also tend to use cheap steel cased ammo for practicing close range, high volume shooting drills, where mechanical accuracy and point of impact shift simply doesn't come into play.

[frozentundra]

I wasn't aware that Sionics has ever produced a 14.5 mid length. Was it a limited run?


I can't find a 14.5" anything on their website at the moment.

[Pennzoil]

I contacted Sionics and he said they aren't currently offering 14.5" but they are thinking about doing a run of them. I forwarded this thread to him.

For disclosure I make nothing from Sionics they just impressed me when I met them.

[Jay Cunningham]

This pretty well sums up my preconceived notions on the issue in a single sentence, not that I have any real expertise to draw conclusions from. It's why I was truly surprised when I went looking for a 14.5" lightweight profile, carbine length gas upper, and found....nothing.

Perhaps I need to rethink my understanding of the issue. If BCM and all the other manufactures have gone exclusively to the mid length configuration on 14.5" guns, maybe it's the way to go. They are staking their companies' reputations on that decision after all. Pat Rogers spec'd out a 14.5" mid length for his signature EAG carbine, and Pat certainly knew more about ARs than I can claim to.

I do use .223 62 grain Federal Fusion MSR as the go-to ammo I keep my AR loaded with. I'm not sure how "hot" that ammo is. I also tend to use cheap steel cased ammo for practicing close range, high volume shooting drills, where mechanical accuracy and point of impact shift simply doesn't come into play.


Oh man. Be careful with that line of thinking.