New gun, new trigger, or keep fighting the good fight?

[spinmove_]

So the last time I did any live fire before last night was 6/6/17. I still haven't done any dry fire practice in over a week probably a week and a half now. This was because I had to go out of town and didn't have the time or opportunity to do any dry fire practice. With that, I used last night's range trip to test myself on how I shoot what I have cold and see what the results would be. I took with me my P220, SP2022 (.40S&W), and G19Gen4. I did some warmup with each and then did some 25yard shooting. Unfortunately, because the only magazine that I have for the P220 was an unmarked somethingorother I was only able to get 14 rounds total down the pipe because the magazine baseplate disintegrated while doing remedial action. This is why you buy good quality magazines, kids.

With the G19Gen4 I put over 50 rounds through it before I did any 25 yard shooting. Groups at 5 and 7 yards were roughly on par with what I'm capable of throwing down with it on an average day. Going out to 25 yards, I was able to lay down a ~5-6" 10 round group almost half of those rounds were pushed slightly left, which for me is somewhat on par if I'm not being super diligent. The G19 is what I consistently practice with both live and dry and currently have over 4,600 rounds through this gun.

With the SP2022 I put 50 rounds total through it. Group size at the same distances with the G19 were about the same, but maybe a little more open as I'm not used to the extra snap and different recoil impulse in general. With the last 7 rounds that I had I decided to push it out to 25 yards for shits and giggles. I threw down a 3.5" group that was dead center. The last time I actually shot this pistol was sometime in the summer or fall of 2016. The last time I seriously dry fired it was sometime before that.

So now the question becomes, what do I make of this? With a pistol that I consistently practice and shoot with I do more poorly than with a pistol that I hardly do anything with. I'm not sure if this is due to the quality of the trigger/trigger break, the ergos of a SIG vs. a Glock for me personally, a combination of those two, or something else entirely. Part of me wants to say that it's time to move to something that I don't have to fight against. Part of me wants to say that I should invest in a more consistent and less garbage trigger for my G19 or find a way to make the existing one less garbage. Part of me wants to say that within 1 week of dry fire I'll be back to where I was at 25 yards and with further practice I can shoot the existing configuration of my G19 as good as the SP2022.

I'm just a civilian, so I'm not bound to LE or .mil decisions on what I have to carry. I won't be selling any of my guns as that doesn't make sense here. My Glocks have been functioning great and I'll continue to carry them for now, so if I make a move, I'll still always have my Glocks to fall back on. The SIGs aren't going away as the P220 is a collector/fun gun for me and the SP2022 fills a special role in that it shoots .40S&W and .357SIG. If I were to move to something else other than a G19, it'd have to be G19 sized, so I'm looking at something like the P320 compact, PX4c, SP2022 in 9mm, or something else.

I just got a bit of a reality check and need to know if I'm thinking straight or if I'm drawing incorrect conclusions on this data. Or if I simply don't have enough data yet to draw any conclusions and I need to not worry about it.

[spinmove_]

Pics for reference.

SP2022 at 25 yards. 7 rounds.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/db5032b9bf2a116218c46f9fa94e2f11.jpg

G19Gen4 at the same distance, on the same target, 10 rounds.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170628/7d10b96a5a8fa6f6387cc61c15a96acb.jpg



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[GJM]

If shooting perfectly centered, cold 25 yard groups was the sole criteria for picking a carry gun, not too many people would be carrying a Glock 19.

[spinmove_]

If shooting perfectly centered, cold 25 yard groups was the sole criteria for picking a carry gun, not too many people would be carrying a Glock 19.

True, but should that not be an important metric to consider? Are you always going to be able to regularly dry practice or get to the range on a regular basis? As stated in the OP I'm not going to immediately cease carrying my G19 nor will I be selling it off nor will I cease practicing with it.

[45dotACP]

Nice shooting...but it's just one point in time. A single data point if you will.

There are good reasons to consider the Sig over the Glock... accuracy, ergos, the safety of the TDA system...but I'd run some other drills as well.

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[rob_s]

In a target gun, group size is virtually everything.

In a carry gun it is but one of a half-dozen considerations.

[spinmove_]

In a target gun, group size is virtually everything.

In a carry gun it is but one of a half-dozen considerations.

Which is exactly what GJM said.

I understand that it's just one data point and further testing is warranted. I also understand that size, weight, reliability, control ability, and sight options are also a thing. But if I can shoot one thing cold better than another thing I practice regularly with warm, doesn't that tell me something?


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[nwhpfan]

So many variables with shooting a group personally I wouldn't prioritize that as a reason to pick one gun over the other.

As far as a dry fire goes, you always have 5 minutes :) Just say'n.

Generally when I hear a person talk about one gun over the other, if they shoot the gun they hardly shoot better I say give them more rounds and they will be just as bad with it. Often the gun with the trigger you are least familiar with you are less likely to prerecoil push, flinch, etc. You hear this with people that got that new gun and suddenly shot so much better.

It really doesn't matter which gun you want to take to the next level, it's you and your training. Ie, it's the software not the hardware.

[BJXDS]

how do you shoot the P320 compact, PX4c, SP2022 in 9mm, or something else?
Could it be you were less focused with the G19 because you felt more familiar with it?

[BehindBlueI's]

But if I can shoot one thing cold better than another thing I practice regularly with warm, doesn't that tell me something?


Yes. It tells you about group size at a given distance in a given circumstance under no time pressure.

I can tell you that I have a similar experience, though. I shoot the Glock left easier when shooting for groups and earlier when shooting for time. Sig just shoots better for me. I had just over 5 years of all Glock all the time, and still shot the Sig better at any meaningful test. The difference was much more pronounced after I broke my hand and ended up with crooked fingers because now my fingers and the finger grooves don't even pretend to get along.

Try some Bill drills or 5x5x5 drills and see what the target and timer say. Also realize at a certain point you are splitting hairs and it's time to just make a decision and roll with it.

[rob_s]

Which is exactly what GJM said.

I understand that it's just one data point and further testing is warranted. I also understand that size, weight, reliability, control ability, and sight options are also a thing. But if I can shoot one thing cold better than another thing I practice regularly with warm, doesn't that tell me something?


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I'm not sure you do understand, since everyone is saying pretty much the same thing and you seem to keep wanting to ignore it. that tells me that you want to carry the Sig, so carry the Sig.

If I'm wrong...

Go shoot the IDPA classifier, or the Hackathorn Standards, or any similar set of drills and report back your scores. For it to mean anything you need to shoot it at least 5 times with each gun, on separate days so that whatever gun you start with doesn't allow you to get warmed up for the other gun.

[spinmove_]

So many variables with shooting a group personally I wouldn't prioritize that as a reason to pick one gun over the other.

As far as a dry fire goes, you always have 5 minutes :) Just say'n.

Generally when I hear a person talk about one gun over the other, if they shoot the gun they hardly shoot better I say give them more rounds and they will be just as bad with it. Often the gun with the trigger you are least familiar with you are less likely to prerecoil push, flinch, etc. You hear this with people that got that new gun and suddenly shot so much better.

It really doesn't matter which gun you want to take to the next level, it's you and your training. Ie, it's the software not the hardware.

True, and now that you mention the "new gun" thing, that does make sense. Remembering back to when I bought and/or tried new guns only to shoot them more over time, I do remember doing well with them for a time and then tapering off because of familiarity and/or possibly laziness.


how do you shoot the P320 compact, PX4c, SP2022 in 9mm, or something else?
Could it be you were less focused with the G19 because you felt more familiar with it?

I've never had a chance to shoot the P320 compact, but I have shot a P320 full size and remember doing pretty well with it, never pushed it to 25 yards though. Never shot a SP2022 in 9mm before, those are hard to find rentals for. I do have a friend that has a PX4c that I could test drive again, it's been forever. It is very possible that I was less focused with it and hearkens to what nwhpfan brought up.


Yes. It tells you about group size at a given distance in a given circumstance under no time pressure.

I can tell you that I have a similar experience, though. I shoot the Glock left easier when shooting for groups and earlier when shooting for time. Sig just shoots better for me. I had just over 5 years of all Glock all the time, and still shot the Sig better at any meaningful test. The difference was much more pronounced after I broke my hand and ended up with crooked fingers because now my fingers and the finger grooves don't even pretend to get along.

Try some Bill drills or 5x5x5 drills and see what the target and timer say. Also realize at a certain point you are splitting hairs and it's time to just make a decision and roll with it.

True and that makes sense. I have also traditionally just shot SIGs better as well.


I'm not sure you do understand, since everyone is saying pretty much the same thing and you seem to keep wanting to ignore it. that tells me that you want to carry the Sig, so carry the Sig.

If I'm wrong...

Go shoot the IDPA classifier, or the Hackathorn Standards, or any similar set of drills and report back your scores. For it to mean anything you need to shoot it at least 5 times with each gun, on separate days so that whatever gun you start with doesn't allow you to get warmed up for the other gun.

You're right, rob_s. Reading back on all of the comments, you guys are all pretty much saying the same thing. Which is why I don't make hasty decisions like this anymore and at the very least bounce it off someone else before going too crazy with tangential thoughts. So thank you, and everyone else, for smacking me in the back of the head so to speak. It just kind of shocked me a little when I saw that group I shot with the SP2022. That's hands down the smallest group I've ever shot with any pistol at that distance so I guess I should just be happy with it and just continue to drive on.

[45dotACP]

To be fair...I switched from Glock recently...I like Berettas, and now have multiple 92s...enough to practice, carry, and compete.

I also measured my performance on Bill drills, Failure Drills,1r2, and 25 yard shooting. The only drill I objectively shot Glocks better on was the 1r2.

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[spinmove_]

To be fair...I switched from Glock recently...I like Berettas, and now have multiple 92s...enough to practice, carry, and compete.

I also measured my performance on Bill drills, Failure Drills,1r2, and 25 yard shooting. The only drill I objectively shot Glocks better on was the 1r2.

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Right now I don't have the budget to completely switch platforms, so even if I wanted to, I couldn't do it. I will, however, be putting a little more time behind the SP2022 just to see what happens. I planned on picking up some 10 round magazines and a holster and mag pouch for it so I can do ban state carry with it, so I should practice with it more anywho. If it turns out that I can objectively shoot that or another similar platform better, then in time I'll make the switch.


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[Clusterfrack]

Spinmove--I went down this rabbit hole with p320c vs G19. I shoot the 320c measurably better than the 19 (see the Gabe White drill thread below for one example). I still prefer to carry the 19, and sometimes a 43. I'm satisfied with my performance with these guns, and size, comfort, concealment, Gadget, and parts availability make Glock the best choice for me.


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=18787&share_tid=22600&share_pid=615050&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpistol-forum%2Ecom%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D615050&share_type=t

[Jared]

I wouldn't go to making too many drastic decisions based on one range trip if it were me. Looks like you mentioned you were going to gather more data, and I think that would be the best course of action.

[spinmove_]

Spinmove--I went down this rabbit hole with p320c vs G19. I shoot the 320c measurably better than the 19 (see the Gabe White drill thread below for one example). I still prefer to carry the 19, and sometimes a 43. I'm satisfied with my performance with these guns, and size, comfort, concealment, Gadget, and parts availability make Glock the best choice for me.


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=18787&share_tid=22600&share_pid=615050&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpistol-forum%2Ecom%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D615050&share_type=t

What's keeping you carrying the G19?


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[NickS]

True, but should that not be an important metric to consider? Are you always going to be able to regularly dry practice or get to the range on a regular basis? As stated in the OP I'm not going to immediately cease carrying my G19 nor will I be selling it off nor will I cease practicing with it.


Why do you think tight groups at 25 yards with a handgun is a realistic metric for any practice use of a firearm?

I think you should be spending much more time on good groups at closer ranges quickly delivered via drawing from where and how you conceal your firearm.

[spinmove_]

Why do you think tight groups at 25 yards with a handgun is a realistic metric for any practice use of a firearm?

I think you should be spending much more time on good groups at closer ranges quickly delivered via drawing from where and how you conceal your firearm.

Because having to defend yourself at 25 yards and out isn't all that unrealistic. How big is your grocery store's parking lot? How big is your grocery store inside? Under stress of having to defend yourself and shooting at that distance, I know I won't be shooting as well as I did in that picture. So shooting tighter in perfect conditions improves my chances of not shooting super loose in a bad situation. I'm still accountable for every single round that leaves that barrel.

I'm working on speed as well, which as you pointed out, is very valuable. I have another thread for that.


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[NickS]

Because having to defend yourself at 25 yards and out isn't all that unrealistic. How big is your grocery store's parking lot? How big is your grocery store inside? Under stress of having to defend yourself and shooting at that distance, I know I won't be shooting as well as I did in that picture. So shooting tighter in perfect conditions improves my chances of not shooting super loose in a bad situation. I'm still accountable for every single round that leaves that barrel.

I'm working on speed as well, which as you pointed out, is very valuable. I have another thread for that.


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If you actually are thinking you will be shooting people at 25 yards, you better have one darn good lawyer. Your approach to this is wholly unrealistic.

[spinmove_]

If you actually are thinking you will be shooting people at 25 yards, you better have one darn good lawyer. Your approach to this is wholly unrealistic.

I'll let the situation, my ability to make rational and logical decisions based on that situation, and my training determine whether or not I'll ever have need of making that kind of shot.

Until then, let's stay on the topic of the mechanics and employed fundamentals of objectively measuring if I need to make a change or not.

As stated earlier I'll be doing some further evaluation before coming to a more solid conclusion, which will be far and away ahead of making any purchases.


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[NickS]

I'll let the situation, my ability to make rational and logical decisions based on that situation, and my training determine whether or not I'll ever have need of making that kind of shot.

Until then, let's stay on the topic of the mechanics and employed fundamentals of objectively measuring if I need to make a change or not.

As stated earlier I'll be doing some further evaluation before coming to a more solid conclusion, which will be far and away ahead of making any purchases.


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Honestly, you seem intent of ignoring a lot of great advice you have received in this thread. Standing quietly at an indoor range shooting deliberate strings of seven shots at a target 25 yards away is not training for a fight at 25 yards, period. Your ability to hit a target at that distance under the conditions you are shooting have nearly nothing to do with your ability to do it under stress in any real-world situation. That you do not realize that is what may well get you and somebody else killed some day. And NO, you do not need to make a change with your handgun.

Why? It's about the Indian, not the arrow.

[spinmove_]

Honestly, you seem intent of ignoring a lot of great advice you have received in this thread.

First, standing quietly and still at an indoor range shooting deliberate strings of seven shots at a target 25 yards away is not training for a fight at 25 yards, period. Your ability to hit a target at that distance under the conditions you are shooting have nearly nothing with your ability to do it under stress in any real-world situation. That you do not realize that is what may well get you are somebody else killed some day.

But, good luck to you.

And NO, you do not need to make a change with your handgun.

Why, because it is not about the arrow, but about the Indian.

So me telling you to stay on topic vs. delving into justifying whether or not taking a 25 yard shot in any given random self defense scenario is legally and/or morally justified is blatantly ignoring great advice? I would respectfully disagree. Furthermore, if you read one of my previous posts to this one you would see that I took the time to re-read the responses that I got and fully acknowledged that I needed to listen to and digest the advice that I was given.

Never did I say nor insinuate that standing on a square range shooting for groups at 25 yards was "training for a fight". Shooting groups at 25 yards is a metric. Shooting groups at 25 yards timed is another and different metric. Shooting the El Presidente drill is a metric. Shooting a Bill Drill is a metric. Shooting a Failure 2 Stop drill is a metric. We use metrics to gauge performance. So no, it's not that I don't realize what you're saying, it's that you think I'm assuming something that you're assuming. What happened in this thread is that I drew a premature conclusion based on a singular metric from a single point in a non-scientific fashion. I was given advice, I listened to that advice, and am now proceeding in a more logical manner. I don't care if you think I'll ever have to make a self-defense shot at 25 yards or not. That's not relevant to this discussion nor was it ever brought up prior to your post. If you wish to discuss this particular point further, create a new thread or send me a PM, please.

I understand that it's about the Indian and not the Arrow. However there are some on this board that will argue in favor of user to hardware fitment that know a thing or two about a thing or two. I was simply looking to figure out (again, prematurely as stated earlier in this post) if that was POSSIBLY what could be going on here.

I do appreciate everyone that is willing to share their thoughts and advice, including you. I would just appreciate it if your responses were less accusatory before having all of the details on hand.

[NickS]

So me telling you to stay on topic vs. delving into justifying whether or not taking a 25 yard shot in any given random self defense scenario is legally and/or morally justified is blatantly ignoring great advice?

Do whatever you want, guy. You have all the advice you need already in this thread. Take it or leave it, makes no difference to me.

[psalms144.1]

I'll try to get back on target (see what I did there?). I carry a Gen4 G19 whenever I'm at work, a Gen4 G26 on the ankle as BUG or primary off duty, with rare exceptions when I carry a G43 (pocket carry to the doctor, for instance). I have to work harder to shoot it with precision than any other pistol in my safe (VP9, 1911, P7M8, P07, a bunch of round guns, etc). Why do I still carry it as a primary?

-Size efficiency #1 - because to me, more rounds on board is always a good thing.
-Weight - because I'm getting older, fatter and lazier all the time, and hauling around any extra weight on the belt is getting more irritating.
-Reliability - with the rare exception of a BTF, this G19 has never bobbled, failed or flubbed in any way.
-Sights/holsters - I can get EXACTLY the sights I prefer on the Glock, and exactly the holster I want with the Glock - not so much with the others.
-Maintenance - if anything WERE to break, I'm a simple punch and a bag of inexpensive spare parts away from back in action. Parts are so inexpensive that replacing all the springs on an annual basis is cheap - and super easy to pull off.
-Cost - if I ever have to use the pistol at work or for SD/HD, I know it's going into evidence for a while (the pistols my guys used at the Washington Navy Yard shooting are STILL in evidence - coming up on 4 years later). I can get a replacement Glock damn near anywhere for a relative song. Mags are plentiful and cheap.

If I want to show off on the range, the G19 is NOT the pistol I'll pick. But, I can still do what needs doing at 25 yards if I take my time and focus. Realistically, if my only target is the size of a 3x5 and it's way out at the edge of my visual acuity range, I'd have to think REALLY hard before pressing that trigger - because every round you shoot has a lawyer attached to it...

[Robinson]

I wouldn't let 25 yard groups determine my choice in a carry gun. I think you should shoot the SP2022 a bunch more at moderate distances and then decide which pistol you actually have more confidence in when it comes to your ability to use it effectively. And this would take into account shooting performance as well as other factors such as reliable function and carry method.

[WobblyPossum]

Does the Sig do anything else for you better than the G19 or is it just the 25y grouping issue?


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[spinmove_]

Does the Sig do anything else for you better than the G19 or is it just the 25y grouping issue?


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As stated earlier, that is unknown. Having re-evaluated as per the multitude of recommendations, I'll be putting the SP2022 through its paces. I was just shocked at what I was able to do with it.

While the SP2022 is ever so slightly larger (still smaller than an M&P9 fs) and slightly heavier (something like 4oz), it isn't the only option I'd ultimately consider. Time and data will tell.


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[spinmove_]

I'll try to get back on target (see what I did there?). I carry a Gen4 G19 whenever I'm at work, a Gen4 G26 on the ankle as BUG or primary off duty, with rare exceptions when I carry a G43 (pocket carry to the doctor, for instance). I have to work harder to shoot it with precision than any other pistol in my safe (VP9, 1911, P7M8, P07, a bunch of round guns, etc). Why do I still carry it as a primary?

-Size efficiency #1 - because to me, more rounds on board is always a good thing.
-Weight - because I'm getting older, fatter and lazier all the time, and hauling around any extra weight on the belt is getting more irritating.
-Reliability - with the rare exception of a BTF, this G19 has never bobbled, failed or flubbed in any way.
-Sights/holsters - I can get EXACTLY the sights I prefer on the Glock, and exactly the holster I want with the Glock - not so much with the others.
-Maintenance - if anything WERE to break, I'm a simple punch and a bag of inexpensive spare parts away from back in action. Parts are so inexpensive that replacing all the springs on an annual basis is cheap - and super easy to pull off.
-Cost - if I ever have to use the pistol at work or for SD/HD, I know it's going into evidence for a while (the pistols my guys used at the Washington Navy Yard shooting are STILL in evidence - coming up on 4 years later). I can get a replacement Glock damn near anywhere for a relative song. Mags are plentiful and cheap.

If I want to show off on the range, the G19 is NOT the pistol I'll pick. But, I can still do what needs doing at 25 yards if I take my time and focus. Realistically, if my only target is the size of a 3x5 and it's way out at the edge of my visual acuity range, I'd have to think REALLY hard before pressing that trigger - because every round you shoot has a lawyer attached to it...

Yup, agreed on all points. I just wish it were easier to get longer distance hits with this thing.


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[45dotACP]

If you actually are thinking you will be shooting people at 25 yards, you better have one darn good lawyer. Your approach to this is wholly unrealistic.
Yeah...it's not like the distance to first base is about 25 yards away or so...and nobody's been in a shooting on a baseball diamond...

Like ever...

Recently.

There is value in shooting at distance. But under a clock, with concealment...like all practice should be. It need not be the greatest allotment of your practice, but it's wise to know where you hit and how to make accurate hits at distance...the level of trigger control, sight alignment etc...that goes into making a hit under stress. Lately, there's a lot of assholes with rifles doing asshole stuff. If I'm cornered by one of those guys, I want hits as soon as possible because closing the distance and killing the asshole means something else when my max distance is 50 yards compared to 10.

I shoot Berettas now because I shoot them better than Glock...but I shoot, manipulate, and otherwise handle 1911s far and above better than anything else.

I don't carry 1911s because I see value in a bigger stack of BBs...

[Gio]

A lot of good advice has already been dropped in this thread, but I will add this:

I find it very hard to take multiple different pistols to the range on the same day, shoot them all back to back, and shoot a Glock to my normal level because it has such a different trigger and ergonomic feel. Glocks tend to be easier to shoot and maintain proficiency with if you shoot them exclusively.

[Clusterfrack]

What's keeping you carrying the G19?


Best balance of carryability, shootability, capacity and reliability I've found. I also like the Glock as a system (parts, mags, etc).

I do like the p320c a whole lot though, and if I knew I was very likely to need to defend myself or my family, I would carry it more often.

[rob_s]

I thought I'd maybe elaborate on my earlier posts.

I think you'll find that most people that carry guns go through something like this in their shooting "career". Shortly after starting shooting IDPA in the early 2000s (can't recall exact year), which I was doing originally with my carry Glock 19, I shot a match with with my friend's Sig P228 and was amazed at how much better I shot the SA shots with the gun. This led to a multi-year, and multi-thousands-of-dollars, experiment with the 1911 (because hey, it was the SA trigger on the Sig that made all the difference, right?) only to eventually come back to the Glock for all of the other reasons, AND because I ultimately figured out that while I shot the 1911 more accurately at times it wasn't enough so that it really mattered and it certainly didn't justify all of the other negatives (some of which were unique to the 1911, some of which just had to do with the Glock being the only real choice). Years later I forgot all those lessons and started down the CZ rabbit hole for USPSA, but thankfully eventually had the re-epiphany and pulled up just in time.

I say all of this to say that the advice you're getting from many of us if from a "yeah, I went down that road, don't bother" point of view. Of course, it's also those hard-learned lessons that stick the best. And sometimes even those lessons need refreshing, as in my CZ deviation.

[NickS]

Many folks believe there is a "perfect" handgun out there that will address and solve their shooting deficiencies. The lesson most of us learn is that our time chasing after that "perfect" handgun is much better spent on perfecting our shooting form and techniques (which are applicable to any weapon platform or handgun). Some people do not learn that lesson and post questions like the OP and become frustrated when he is told it is not arrow, but the Indian. I've seen this play out hundreds of times over many gun forums. I don't know why I bother to try to address the questions....but, hey, it is a gun forum. :)

[spinmove_]

I thought I'd maybe elaborate on my earlier posts.

I think you'll find that most people that carry guns go through something like this in their shooting "career". Shortly after starting shooting IDPA in the early 2000s (can't recall exact year), which I was doing originally with my carry Glock 19, I shot a match with with my friend's Sig P228 and was amazed at how much better I shot the SA shots with the gun. This led to a multi-year, and multi-thousands-of-dollars, experiment with the 1911 (because hey, it was the SA trigger on the Sig that made all the difference, right?) only to eventually come back to the Glock for all of the other reasons, AND because I ultimately figured out that while I shot the 1911 more accurately at times it wasn't enough so that it really mattered and it certainly didn't justify all of the other negatives (some of which were unique to the 1911, some of which just had to do with the Glock being the only real choice). Years later I forgot all those lessons and started down the CZ rabbit hole for USPSA, but thankfully eventually had the re-epiphany and pulled up just in time.

I say all of this to say that the advice you're getting from many of us if from a "yeah, I went down that road, don't bother" point of view. Of course, it's also those hard-learned lessons that stick the best. And sometimes even those lessons need refreshing, as in my CZ deviation.

It's stuff like that which brings us back to reality on such things and I certainly appreciate it. I still think I'm going to spend at least a little bit of time putting some practice and rounds through the SP2022 and seeing what I can do with it while still carrying my G19. Sometimes you just have to break up the monotony a little bit.

Looking back on it now I think part of what I experienced is a mental thing and kind of speaks to what Gio brought up. The SIG ergos and trigger have always worked and worked well and naturally for me. Part of my hangup sometimes with Glocks is the damn trigger break and my insatiable need to concentrate solely on it when I have a not so great day. When I start doing that, shots go left and frustration sets in. It's something I need to work on and get over. Glock knuckle is a thing too though. So maybe I just need to bust out the dremel, make a change to the trigger guard, and polish some internals or something.


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[Robinson]

I thought I'd maybe elaborate on my earlier posts.

I think you'll find that most people that carry guns go through something like this in their shooting "career". Shortly after starting shooting IDPA in the early 2000s (can't recall exact year), which I was doing originally with my carry Glock 19, I shot a match with with my friend's Sig P228 and was amazed at how much better I shot the SA shots with the gun. This led to a multi-year, and multi-thousands-of-dollars, experiment with the 1911 (because hey, it was the SA trigger on the Sig that made all the difference, right?) only to eventually come back to the Glock for all of the other reasons, AND because I ultimately figured out that while I shot the 1911 more accurately at times it wasn't enough so that it really mattered and it certainly didn't justify all of the other negatives (some of which were unique to the 1911, some of which just had to do with the Glock being the only real choice). Years later I forgot all those lessons and started down the CZ rabbit hole for USPSA, but thankfully eventually had the re-epiphany and pulled up just in time.

I say all of this to say that the advice you're getting from many of us if from a "yeah, I went down that road, don't bother" point of view. Of course, it's also those hard-learned lessons that stick the best. And sometimes even those lessons need refreshing, as in my CZ deviation.

This is all fine, practical advice but it's still true that the Glock is not the only answer for everyone. Sometimes a different choice really IS the right option depending on the person. Experimenting is the only way to determine that, but the experiment should make sense within the context of the person's needs, habits, etc... I've shot a Glock 17 enough to know that I like it. But I carry a 9mm 1911, and it's not because I "don't know any better". I have my reasons. If I were to switch to something else it would be something like a P226 SAO or a DA/SA with a decocker I can actually reach. Or MAYBE a Glock with a Gadget. The SP2022 might actually be a good choice for the OP as long as getting bored with the Glock is not the only reason for switching.

[spinmove_]

This is all fine, practical advice but it's still true that the Glock is not the only answer for everyone. Sometimes a different choice really IS the right option depending on the person. Experimenting is the only way to determine that, but the experiment should make sense within the context of the person's needs, habits, etc... I've shot a Glock 17 enough to know that I like it. But I carry a 9mm 1911, and it's not because I "don't know any better". I have my reasons. If I were to switch to something else it would be something like a P226 SAO or a DA/SA with a decocker I can actually reach. Or MAYBE a Glock with a Gadget. The SP2022 might actually be a good choice for the OP as long as getting bored with the Glock is not the only reason for switching.

Still love my Glocks and just ordered a Gadget yesterday. So it's definitely not because of that.


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[rob_s]

This is all fine, practical advice but it's still true that the Glock is not the only answer for everyone. Sometimes a different choice really IS the right option depending on the person. Experimenting is the only way to determine that, but the experiment should make sense within the context of the person's needs, habits, etc... I've shot a Glock 17 enough to know that I like it. But I carry a 9mm 1911, and it's not because I "don't know any better". I have my reasons. If I were to switch to something else it would be something like a P226 SAO or a DA/SA with a decocker I can actually reach. Or MAYBE a Glock with a Gadget. The SP2022 might actually be a good choice for the OP as long as getting bored with the Glock is not the only reason for switching.

Everyone has because:reasons. Often they are more emotional than most of us would like to admit. Myself included.

some people start out wanting the unicorn/snowflake answer and work their way towards same. Some folks start out with ubiquitous and are happy to stay put and "focus on the fundamentals". Most of us seem to wind up swinging in and out, but the pendulum tends to cross the same point eventually, and if we pay attention we realize this and stay on that point so we can worry about other things.

The Glock, for me, is the single best plug-n-play solution. I no longer yearn for tinkering, fiddle-fucking, bragging rights, BBQ guns, snowflaking, unicorning, etc. mostly because I just don't have time in my life between job, house, family, and other interests outside of shooting. I'm willing to bet that virtually every single non-professional (and quite a few professional) users would be best served by the Glock in the same circumstances, but not everyone is working from the same set of circumstances or experiences.

[spinmove_]

Everyone has because:reasons. Often they are more emotional than most of us would like to admit. Myself included.

some people start out wanting the unicorn/snowflake answer and work their way towards same. Some folks start out with ubiquitous and are happy to stay put and "focus on the fundamentals". Most of us seem to wind up swinging in and out, but the pendulum tends to cross the same point eventually, and if we pay attention we realize this and stay on that point so we can worry about other things.

The Glock, for me, is the single best plug-n-play solution. I no longer yearn for tinkering, fiddle-fucking, bragging rights, BBQ guns, snowflaking, unicorning, etc. mostly because I just don't have time in my life between job, house, family, and other interests outside of shooting. I'm willing to bet that virtually every single non-professional (and quite a few professional) users would be best served by the Glock in the same circumstances, but not everyone is working from the same set of circumstances or experiences.

While I agree with you on most of those points, there are still the people that live in crappy states where they might not be best served by a Glock (crap 10 round magazines and all that for a lot of models). If you were stuck in that situation would you live with those problematic magazines or would you find another solution?

Edited because: punctuation is a thing.

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[Robinson]

The Glock, for me, is the single best plug-n-play solution. I no longer yearn for tinkering, fiddle-fucking, bragging rights, BBQ guns, snowflaking, unicorning, etc. mostly because I just don't have time in my life between job, house, family, and other interests outside of shooting. I'm willing to bet that virtually every single non-professional (and quite a few professional) users would be best served by the Glock in the same circumstances, but not everyone is working from the same set of circumstances or experiences.

This is a little too close to saying Glock is the only rational choice and anything else is folly, since the non-Glock attributes and shortcomings of all the other available solutions will only serve to distract a given user from the one true quest.

[rob_s]

This is a little too close to saying Glock is the only rational choice and anything else is folly, since the non-Glock attributes and shortcomings of all the other available solutions will only serve to distract a given user from the one true quest.

you read it how you want, just like you did the last post.

If you're confident in your choice of hte 9mm 1911 then it really shouldn't matter what some jerk on the internut thinks.

[rob_s]

there are still the people that live in crappy states where they might not be best served by a Glock (crap 10 round magazines and all that for a lot of models). If you were stuck in that situation would you live with those problematic magazines or would you find another solution?

Lots of people can come up with lots of because:special reasons. Personally, I'd carry a Glock 43 or 26, but then lots of folks will find issue with that. But it's not supposed to be all about me, or so I'm often told.

[spinmove_]

Lots of people can come up with lots of because:special reasons. Personally, I'd carry a Glock 43 or 26, but then lots of folks will find issue with that. But it's not supposed to be all about me, or so I'm often told.

Fair enough. There are different ways to skin that cat. I was just curious what yours was.


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[blues]

This is a little too close to saying Glock is the only rational choice and anything else is folly, since the non-Glock attributes and shortcomings of all the other available solutions will only serve to distract a given user from the one true quest.

I don't see it that way though I can see why someone might. The Glock 19 was the first semi-auto I ever purchased in 1988 or 1989. And I've only ever been assigned a Colt Gov't Model (series 70) and a S&W 6906 before the agency went entirely to Glocks in the early to mid 90's.

During my years carrying Glocks on and off the job I was fortunate enough, (or unfortunate, depending on perspective), not to be enticed by the siren song of Berettas, Sigs and other firearms carried by my colleagues. I enjoyed shooting them from time to time but nothing ever made me want to move on from my Glocks which just ticked most of the boxes for me from function and reliability to ease of maintenance.

However, I wasn't a firearms enthusiast per se. I viewed handguns and long guns as tools to be employed in support of the mission. (The job's mission and my own mission to keep myself safe in doing so. And now, retired, for home and self defense.)

I shot the Colt and the S&W referenced above somewhat better (for qual scores) than my Glocks but I never wanted to go back to them to replace my Glocks for daily carry.

Nowadays, other than shooting my backup S&W 642, (or 686+ primarily for recreation), I am simply focusing on bettering my abilities with my three 9mm Glocks.

It really seems to boil down, in my mind, to what the mission for the firearm is, your comfort level with it, and the ability to keep it running at a high level via parts and accessories as required.

I don't doubt that had I cut my teeth on some of the other favorites here on the forum I might very well have a different perspective vis a vis my preference for Glocks. But I have no reason to change course at this juncture.

[Robinson]

spinmove_, I think you have some good input here including from rob_s so take it for what it's worth. Then do what you think is right for you. I'm afraid I may have actually derailed your thread without meaning to.

[GJM]

Another consideration is what your goals are. Do you only want something specific, like being able to defend yourself. In that case, picking just one suitable pistol, is likely going to get you there with the least expenditure of time and money. Inevitably, that one pistol will be better at some things than other things. How you value those "other things" will likely influence what one pistol model you pick.

However, if you are trying to become a shooter in a more general sense, you eventually will want to be able to shoot a wider range of triggers and platforms. That might involve a more circuitous path, as you upgrade your hardware and your software skills. Along the way, that is likely to set you back compared to having invested all your energy into one specific pistol. Ultimately, I think shooting many triggers and pistols allows you to learn more, but that is just my opinion, and certainly not a recommendation.

[spinmove_]

Another consideration is what your goals are. Do you only want something specific, like being able to defend yourself. In that case, picking just one suitable pistol, is likely going to get you there with the least expenditure of time and money. Inevitably, that one pistol will be better at some things than other things. How you value those "other things" will likely influence what one pistol model you pick.

However, if you are trying to become a shooter in a more general sense, you eventually will want to be able to shoot a wider range of triggers and platforms. That might involve a more circuitous path, as you upgrade your hardware and your software skills. Along the way, that is likely to set you back compared to having invested all your energy into one specific pistol. Ultimately, I think shooting many triggers and pistols allows you to learn more, but that is just my opinion, and certainly not a recommendation.

My goal is to defend me and mine, but I'm also very much interested in mastery with a pistol in general because I like it and it helps with defending me and mine.

I've rolled with a P229-1 and SP2022 in the past exclusively for a while before I delved into really getting better with Glocks. A G23Gen4 was also the first real pistol that I bought (and sold) also. I find changing it up does make me a more well rounded shooter capable of picking up most any pistol and running it competently at the same general level that I can run the pistol I shoot/practice with most.

Still, time and data will tell if I ultimately move to something else.


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[KP]

Spinmove_ you have without any doubt received some of the best advise I've read on any thread. Additionally, you already have set your objective. As some one already essentially said, make your decision and roll with it.
BTW, I do like NickS's comment on the 29 yards. Unless you are in law enforcement or shooting at some bad guy who is about to serious injure or kill another, in many jurisdictions the use of deadly force to take a 25 yard shot generally may not constitute a "justifiable" shooting. At 25 yards you are outside the circle of danger. Moreover, at such distance unless you are being shot at you are not in imminent danger of deadly force and you could escape. In fact, there are some prosecutors who would charge you with manslaughter or attempted manslaughter. Best of luck on your decision.

[GJM]

Spinmove_ you have without any doubt received some of the best advise I've read on any thread. Additionally, you already have set your objective. As some one already essentially said, make your decision and roll with it.
BTW, I do like NickS's comment on the 29 yards. Unless you are in law enforcement or shooting at some bad guy who is about to serious injure or kill another, in many jurisdictions the use of deadly force to take a 25 yard shot generally may not constitute a "justifiable" shooting. At 25 yards you are outside the circle of danger. Moreover, at such distance unless you are being shot at you are not in imminent danger of deadly force and you could escape. In fact, there are some prosecutors who would charge you with manslaughter or attempted manslaughter. Best of luck on your decision.

Generally sound advice, but while I might be out of the circle of danger, someone else I care deeply about might be in that circle of danger. Considering that any use of force is a low probability event, given all the effort I have put into shooting at 25 yards and further, I do not like the idea of hardware limiting my useful range envelope and risk that my low probability event did not fall into the 3-7 yard expected engagement distance.

[LSP552]

Generally sound advice, but while I might be out of the circle of danger, someone else I care deeply about might be in that circle of danger. Considering that any use of force is a low probability event, given all the effort I have put into shooting at 25 yards and further, I do not like the idea of hardware limiting my useful range envelope and risk that my low probability event did not fall into the 3-7 yard expected engagement distance.

And being able to hit at distance means increased ability to make a partial/obscured shot up close.

[spinmove_]

Generally sound advice, but while I might be out of the circle of danger, someone else I care deeply about might be in that circle of danger. Considering that any use of force is a low probability event, given all the effort I have put into shooting at 25 yards and further, I do not like the idea of hardware limiting my useful range envelope and risk that my low probability event did not fall into the 3-7 yard expected engagement distance.

So much this as well as LSP552's comment. I'm fully aware that 25 yards isn't necessarily "imminent threat range" for A LOT of scenarios, but that doesn't mean that there aren't scenarios where it wouldn't be perfectly justified. This is why I stated earlier that this particular topic isn't relevant to this discussion because it's an entirely different rabbit hole.

We can't predict when and where and what situation will present itself if/when we do get into a lethal force defense situation. If we could, I personally wouldn't show up and just stay at home. Given that I don't have a crystal ball and can't predict the future I choose to prepare myself as best as possible so that if such a situation did present itself I would be better equipped to handle it.


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[KP]

A qualification is in order with respect to my comments in shooting at 25 yards and "being in imminent danger of serious injury." In no way am I stating that you cannot take that long shot. I do favor practicing long distance pistol shooting, as I see it close groupings at long distance increases greater accuracy at those 3-7 yards - creates shooting confidence during exigent circumstances. Moreover, there are possibilities of being confronted with a situation where one is forced to fire at a long distance in order to protect themselves or family members. However, my state, a jurisdiction with serious gun control laws, not only greatly limits those situations where a person can employ the use of deadly force on another but also will prosecute a shooter who shoots a BG when that civilian is no longer in danger i.e., the dangerous situation is over and the BG is running away. In short if the shooting is not justified, the shooter will be "the criminal defendant" in a separate criminal trial. What may be justifiable shooting at 3-7 yards may not be justifiable at 20-25 yards. BTW, Spinmove_ I neglected to say you shot well :D

[GJM]

A qualification is in order with respect to my comments in shooting at 25 yards and "being in imminent danger of serious injury." In no way am I stating that you cannot take that long shot. I do favor practicing long distance pistol shooting, as I see it close groupings at long distance increases greater accuracy at those 3-7 yards - creates shooting confidence during exigent circumstances. Moreover, there are possibilities of being confronted with a situation where one is forced to fire at a long distance in order to protect themselves or family members. However, my state, a jurisdiction with serious gun control laws, not only greatly limits those situations where a person can employ the use of deadly force on another but also will prosecute a shooter who shoots a BG when that civilian is no longer in danger i.e., the dangerous situation is over and the BG is running away. In short if the shooting is not justified, the shooter will be "the criminal defendant" in a separate criminal trial. What may be justifiable shooting at 3-7 yards may not be justifiable at 20-25 yards. BTW, Spinmove_ I neglected to say you shot well :D

Albany and South, I am pretty sure you would be prosecuted even if you took out two ISIS shooters with AK's and explosive vests. Most of out west, you wouldn't need to buy drinks for the rest of your life.

[P.E. Kelley]

I am not a tactician, just a shooting enthusiast and competition oriented shooter.

Over the past few years I have shot 26 different handguns (most all of the brand new) without benefit of a single round of live fire before shooting them
at Speed Steel shooting matches. That expreience has taught me that...what gun, trigger, sights etc. matters very little. What matters is how well you can
apply the fundamentals on demand. Even with the very heavy DA of the KelTec P11 and Webley MarkIV I have generally managed to break into the top 3.

So pick a gun and practice. 25 feet or 25 yards the ability to hit rests squarely on the shooter.

[JHC]

Any bias against 25 yard precision is pretty wrong headed. Both from the standpoint of the effective range of a BG's firearm (it's more than 25 yards) and from the obvious standpoint of how great precision translates into hitting tight targets at closer ranges.

Folks can settle for whatever they want to settle for but there is no valid argument against high levels of precision.

[KP]

Albany and South, I am pretty sure you would be prosecuted even if you took out two ISIS shooters with AK's and explosive vests. Most of out west, you wouldn't need to buy drinks for the rest of your life.

;););)

[BWT]

This is one of the best threads I've read in recent memory.

I'd agree about sentiments regarding distance. Distance to me puts a magnifying glass on the execution of fundamentals. Habits that wouldn't be as readily apparent or nuanced become more obvious at distance.

Also as P. E. Kelley and, to me, GJM's posts point out. I think good and frequent practice help minimize the nuances of the gun and help performance in general.

Now only if I did those things...

God Bless,

Brandon

[GJM]

I am not a tactician, just a shooting enthusiast and competition oriented shooter.

Over the past few years I have shot 26 different handguns (most all of the brand new) without benefit of a single round of live fire before shooting them
at Speed Steel shooting matches. That expreience has taught me that...what gun, trigger, sights etc. matters very little. What matters is how well you can
apply the fundamentals on demand. Even with the very heavy DA of the KelTec P11 and Webley MarkIV I have generally managed to break into the top 3.

So pick a gun and practice. 25 feet or 25 yards the ability to hit rests squarely on the shooter.

I agree, but with a caveat. That caveat is that great shooters like Patrick and TGO, can shoot anything. Less developed shooters often do not shoot everything as well as specific pistols that match up with their skills better.

[HCM]

A lot of good advice has already been dropped in this thread, but I will add this:

I find it very hard to take multiple different pistols to the range on the same day, shoot them all back to back, and shoot a Glock to my normal level because it has such a different trigger and ergonomic feel. Glocks tend to be easier to shoot and maintain proficiency with if you shoot them exclusively.

I've found this to be true if both Glocks and HK LEM. Both demand monogamy and regular maintenance to shoot at a high level.

[HCM]

And being able to hit at distance means increased ability to make a partial/obscured shot up close.

LSP552 is spot on. You have to train "all the ranges." Legally there are no range limits. The particular facts of the situation will determine what is objectively reasonable and thus legal.

In practical terms, your fight is gonna be what it's gonna be and your opponent gets a vote. Tanaka Ken said it best in The Yakuza:


http://youtu.be/JxpwUrDsRjI

[M2CattleCo]

Sounds to me like you didn't shoot your other pistol in so long you got 'new gun syndrome' when you picked it up again.

Stick with the 19

[spinmove_]

Sounds to me like you didn't shoot your other pistol in so long you got 'new gun syndrome' when you picked it up again.

Stick with the 19

Yeah, that's most likely what happened.


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[JustOneGun]

Spinmove_

You said you were going to get some more data by shooting both pistols more. I'm curious if you have a plan for evaluating each pistol using some type of metric? And if so what you might use?

[spinmove_]

Spinmove_

You said you were going to get some more data by shooting both pistols more. I'm curious if you have a plan for evaluating each pistol using some type of metric? And if so what you might use?

I don't have a formal roadmap at this time, but I should put one together if I'm going to truly objectively pit one pistol against the other. I've not had time to really devote any time to this for this past week, but I'll see if I can throw something together tomorrow so I can get going on that.

Drills that I can think of off the top of my head that would be good benchmarks:

Dot Torture
25 yard grouping
Walkback Drill
The Test
Press Six
FAST

I'd incorporate more drills with movement if I had an outdoor range I could do that on, but I don't. All of those drills/tests I can run at an indoor range in some form or another.


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[GJM]

I don't have a formal roadmap at this time, but I should put one together if I'm going to truly objectively pit one pistol against the other. I've not had time to really devote any time to this for this past week, but I'll see if I can throw something together tomorrow so I can get going on that.

Drills that I can think of off the top of my head that would be good benchmarks:

Dot Torture
25 yard grouping
Walkback Drill
The Test
Press Six
FAST

I'd incorporate more drills with movement if I had an outdoor range I could do that on, but I don't. All of those drills/tests I can run at an indoor range in some form or another.


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These three guns (and calibers) are different enough, this will likely be a big waste of effort. Decide intellectually what platform/caliber you want to shoot and "your test" is done.

[JustOneGun]

These three guns (and calibers) are different enough, this will likely be a big waste of effort. Decide intellectually what platform/caliber you want to shoot and "your test" is done.




While I agree with you, I think one thing to come out of this might be, what's my test for progress. So if Spin were to select a few, "tests" and use them as a deciding metric for which pistol whether it mattered or not, the metric could be used to track progress. Again, no matter what pistol it is, what actually matters is the progress.

Ultimately some people get stuck on certain guns and switching is a good idea. Without a test of some kind to measure the ability it's just how one feels emotionally. Usually newer or inexperienced people benefit from this test. Of course looking at the 25 yard grouping it could be that Spin is well beyond that.

[spinmove_]

These three guns (and calibers) are different enough, this will likely be a big waste of effort. Decide intellectually what platform/caliber you want to shoot and "your test" is done.

That thought had crossed my mind as well. I've switched pistols in the past (G23 > P229 > G19 > M&P 9 > P229 > G19) and looking back on it, all the switches ultimately did was prove to be speed bumps until I got used to the gun and then I resumed my progression as a shooter. I do think, however, that the time that I've put in on TDA pistols has ultimately made me a more well rounded shooter.

So really, the decision should be made based on other criteria, unless of course the prospective pistol I'd be moving to would actually prove to be a hindrance in some capacity. So what other criteria should the decision be made on? The TDA options that I'd be looking at give me two things. An arguably better "threat management" trigger and reliable 10 round magazines. The other striker options give me reliable 10 round magazines.

I don't live in a ban state and I have no immediate plans to move to one, so travel is really the only worry. How often do I travel to unfriendly states? Rarely. So this really isn't a good reason to switch.

So really is boils down to if I want to switch to a better "threat management" trigger or if I want to stick with my "get myself into legal hot water in da streetz" striker trigger. Lots of people seem to do just fine with Glocks and other striker platforms, yet there are some strong and poignant advocates of the TDA. So I guess my question now becomes "how do I determine which option I should ultimately go with?"


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[GJM]

Regardless of which platform you pick, I would make it 9mm for ease on your body and your wallet.

[spinmove_]

Regardless of which platform you pick, I would make it 9mm for ease on your body and your wallet.

Most definitely, that's a given. That's why I didn't put coat of spare parts/magazines/secondary gun. Ammo is far and away going to be my biggest expenditure to the point that all that other ancillary stuff is just a drop in the bucket.


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[RevolverRob]

There are perfect guns. But they are few and far between. And they are generally unholy expensive.

So instead, I try hard to identify my key needs.

1) Mechanical Reliability.
2) Mechanical Accuracy.
3) My ability to shoot it accurate and fast.
4) My ability to conceal it.
5) My ability to afford it.

In my experience 3, 4, and 5 are the things that can be improved with practice and patience. Numbers 1 and 2 is the part where I need the gun to do its thing.

If you aren't finding reliability or accuracy in a given platform, after consistently shooting it for 2000 rounds and about 10,000 dryfire reps, then move on. When moving to a new platform big gains should come quickly and you should settle into your "plateau" of performance very quick (< 500 rounds). After that, a new platform should be similar to shooting your old one. You may need to work on certain things a bit more, but if you can't get back to a good baseline of performance quickly. Then it won't likely ever work out for you.

If you reach a hard limit in your shooting performance with any platform. You need to examine if its you or the mechanical limits of the gun. And most likely...its you (but not always).

[1986s4]

If shooting perfectly centered, cold 25 yard groups was the sole criteria for picking a carry gun, not too many people would be carrying a Glock 19.

My opinion exactly, I respect the Glock for all of it's great qualities but shooting one reasonably well for me is not one of them. So what do I shoot well? DA revolvers, SAO's like a 1911 and TDA's. Based on my needs I have come to the conclusion I'm not breaking down doors and repelling boarders. So do I need the latest and greatest high cap pistol? If I should need many bullets then my AR15 is ready.
But that's me..