VP9 dead trigger due to impact issue (split from Personal SIG 320 Journey thread)

[Doc_Glock]

VP9s seem to have very pleasant triggers and are pretty well priced to boot. If I was starting from scratch I would give them a very hard look.

VP9s drop their striker when tapped on the bottom of the grip. That completely rules them out for me. Otherwise great guns.

[LockedBreech]

VP9s drop their striker when tapped on the bottom of the grip. That completely rules them out for me. Otherwise great guns.

I was not aware of this. Can you elaborate?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

VP9s drop their striker when tapped on the bottom of the grip. That completely rules them out for me. Otherwise great guns.

That's right - I recall you posting that video. Did you ever contact HK about that?

[Doc_Glock]

That's right - I recall you posting that video. Did you ever contact HK about that?

No. I sold the gun. It is a feature:) I have duplicated the test on several other VP9s.

[Doc_Glock]

I was not aware of this. Can you elaborate?



https://youtu.be/GAiepTZ66Hs

It works better with a nylon hammer, but it drops the striker every time. The gun would not go off due to the striker channel blocker, but the trigger is dead until the slide is run.

[LockedBreech]

https://youtu.be/GAiepTZ66Hs

It works better with a nylon hammer, but it drops the striker every time. The gun would not go off due to the striker channel blocker, but the trigger is dead until the slide is run.

I was ready to be skeptical and ask what the real-world applicability of this was, but wow, he really did not hit it very hard at all. I can see a slammed-in reload or adrenaline-fueled failure drill causing that.

I moved from the VP9 to G17G4 because in extensive dry firing I felt the VP9's striker release was too light/feathery and this seems to back that up a bit.

I was already going to sell the gun. Glad it's not a safety concern so I don't have to feel bad about it. Thanks for the info.

[EVP]

Wonder if other fully cocked striker guns would experience this.

Don't they have to pass drop testing?

[Mitch]

Wonder if other fully cocked striker guns would experience this.

Don't they have to pass drop testing?

That could still technically pass I think since the firing pin safety will prevent a discharge. Having to reset the trigger would suck, but I think you could still consider that drop safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ADKilla]

https://youtu.be/GAiepTZ66Hs

It works better with a nylon hammer, but it drops the striker every time. The gun would not go off due to the striker channel blocker, but the trigger is dead until the slide is run.

Mods,
I don't want to hijack the thread, but felt compelled to show a differing opinion.

Enel,
Granted I didn't use a mallet, but the top of a dresser. No dropped striker/no dead trigger. I don't want to get into a flame war, but maybe your VP9 has a defect?


https://youtu.be/qIjdq9enNcU

[Doc_Glock]

Mods,
I don't want to hijack the thread, but felt compelled to show a differing opinion.

Enel,
Granted I didn't use a mallet, but the top of a dresser. No dropped striker/no dead trigger. I don't want to get into a flame war, but maybe your VP9 has a defect?


https://youtu.be/qIjdq9enNcU

I agree these posts should be split from this thread. No flames taken or intended. I am just reporting my experience.

The mallet test dropped the striker on two different VP9s. I could also get it to drop hitting the grip on a wood surface. If you look at the design, it is obvious why it happens.

My concern for a police officer carrying this pistol openly in a duty rig is that it could hit the ground in a struggle, then give him a dead trigger when needed most.

[GJM]

Wonder if other fully cocked striker guns would experience this.

Don't they have to pass drop testing?

I had a similar thing happen with a single Walther Q5, when I was very aggressive seating the magazine on a slide forward reload. Other Q5 pistols are not doing it for me.

[Talionis]

No. I sold the gun. It is a feature:) I have duplicated the test on several other VP9s.

Interesting. I must be doing it wrong. Just put a good sized dent in my bedside table with the butt of my most accessible VP9 trying to get the striker to drop. No joy for me. I guess I'll grab a BFH from the garage tomorrow and see if there is some special magic from a mallet hit that does it.

[Luke]

I know this is super hillbilly and not a legit test, but it is what it is. I detail stripped my VP9 and did some light polishing and basically just seeing how she worked and smoothing a couple rough edges. I was worried about the fully tenstioned striker so after I put it back together I beat it against a tree as hard as I could on the butt/Magwell. I'm talking flying bark, beat the snot out of it. Never dropped the striker.

[GardoneVT]

In the first video,the pistol is held by the slide from the forward end. In the latter,its held in the grip.

It strikes me as important because holstered ,the VP9 would be retained by a holster,probably supported in the fashion of Video 1. The $64,000 question is will the gun do this in a holster if the grip is bashed against the concrete ,say in a hands on fight situation.

[hufnagel]

has anyone contacted HK about this and gotten a response?

[ca survivor]

I saw a vid, they guy will drop a Glock and it will chamber a round............soooo

[CDFIII]

I tried this with a few samples of VP9's. I couldn't replicate this either. Tried it on a desk, rubber mallet and held in different positions. I was not able to replicate the effects of the striker dropping on any of my test samples. I used a very early VP and a few newer production guns and all seemed to pass.

[Peally]

Not a concern at all for me, but now I have a fun science test to do with my handgun when I have some free time.

[Bill]

Took me three tries and I got this to happen on mine (BF date code, sold as an LE model). Very interesting. Just set the striker and gave it a moderate (but firm) whack on my kitchen counter....dead trigger. I agree with others that in theory at least this shouldn't lead to a discharge, as the striker block should still be in place, but this is without question something that is important to be aware of.

[GardoneVT]

Took me three tries and I got this to happen on mine (BF date code, sold as an LE model). Very interesting. Just set the striker and gave it a moderate (but firm) whack on my kitchen counter....dead trigger. I agree with others that in theory at least this shouldn't lead to a discharge, as the striker block should still be in place, but this is without question something that is important to be aware of.

Ultimately none of us can escape Bad Luck.

I'm reminded of a wild LE story some years back. An officer armed with a thigh holstered P226 in a Safariland ALS stacked up to serve a warrant when the bad guy started shooting through the open door. Officer drew his Sig and pointed an empty frame at an armed and dangerous suspect . Fortunately his partners were on the ball ,so he survived the event.

Turned out one of the rounds the thug fired hit the holster in exactly the right place to trip the P226's takedown lever in place without its owner knowing.Thus the slide stayed in the holster.

We pays our money and takes our chances.

[TiroFijo]

Took me three tries and I got this to happen on mine (BF date code, sold as an LE model). Very interesting. Just set the striker and gave it a moderate (but firm) whack on my kitchen counter....dead trigger. I agree with others that in theory at least this shouldn't lead to a discharge, as the striker block should still be in place, but this is without question something that is important to be aware of.

The striker is blocked, but it would still give me the creeps... it is a fully tensioned striker, imagine having a S80 1911 with the safety off, you wack the grip and the hammer falls...

The other thing is going ?????? when you have a dead trigger out of the blue. Easy and fast to fix, but disconcerting.

[RJ]

Mods,
I don't want to hijack the thread, but felt compelled to show a differing opinion.

Enel,
Granted I didn't use a mallet, but the top of a dresser. No dropped striker/no dead trigger. I don't want to get into a flame war, but maybe your VP9 has a defect?


https://youtu.be/qIjdq9enNcU

Interesting thread.

From ADKilla's video, it looks to me like the grip is impacted front first.

From Enel's video, the mallet strikes the rear of the grip first.

Those of you who would know, could this make a difference in the effect internally on the VP9 trigger of an impulse force like a mallet strike?

[breakingtime91]

Didn't something like this basically kill the FNS on this board?

[texasaggie2005]

Didn't something like this basically kill the FNS on this board?

Apologies for the thread drift.

I had an early FNS that the "common FNS trigger" issue. If you manually reset the trigger while the slide was forwards, it would result in a dead trigger and a locked slide until you returned the trigger to the rear and manipulated the slide.


https://youtu.be/AicVIt_PNLQ

[breakingtime91]

I had an early FNS that the "common FNS trigger" issue. If you manually reset the trigger while the slide was locked back, it would result in a dead trigger and require a slide manipulation to fix.

Why does that seem less of a big deal than what some Vp9 is showing? Hm

[Peally]

Why does that seem less of a big deal than what some Vp9 is showing? Hm

If I understand what he's saying wouldn't that disable the pistol any time a slide lock reload is done?

The obnoxious fabric snagging catch lip thing on the magazines is what ruins FNs for me :D

[breakingtime91]

If I understand what he's saying wouldn't that disable the pistol any time a slide lock reload is done?

The obnoxious fabric snagging catch lip thing on the magazines is what ruins FNs for me :D

Bro your on another level speed wise but I don't even think you could manage to manually reset the trigger during a reload. Ya they were neat pistols but never got me with that coolness. I just find it interesting that these two guns seem to have something interesting happening but the FNS seemed to gain a lot more traction.

[texasaggie2005]

Why does that seem less of a big deal than what some Vp9 is showing? Hm


If I understand what he's saying wouldn't that disable the pistol any time a slide lock reload is done?

The obnoxious fabric snagging catch lip thing on the magazines is what ruins FNs for me :D

Please note I submitted my post before I was finished editing. I mis-remembered the issue and had to look it up. I corrected the post and added a video example.

[archangel]

Ultimately none of us can escape Bad Luck.

I'm reminded of a wild LE story some years back. An officer armed with a thigh holstered P226 in a Safariland ALS stacked up to serve a warrant when the bad guy started shooting through the open door. Officer drew his Sig and pointed an empty frame at an armed and dangerous suspect . Fortunately his partners were on the ball ,so he survived the event.

Turned out one of the rounds the thug fired hit the holster in exactly the right place to trip the P226's takedown lever in place without its owner knowing.Thus the slide stayed in the holster.

We pays our money and takes our chances.

Would have to have done more than just trip the takedown lever. Normally the slide needs to be fully to the rear for the lever to rotate, and mag needs to be removed for the slide to come forward off the frame. So the round likely destroyed / removed from the frame the takedown lever, and also affected the mag release causing the mag to at least partially eject.

Either way, though, crazy scenario to have happen!



Mods,
I don't want to hijack the thread, but felt compelled to show a differing opinion.

Enel,
Granted I didn't use a mallet, but the top of a dresser. No dropped striker/no dead trigger. I don't want to get into a flame war, but maybe your VP9 has a defect?


https://youtu.be/qIjdq9enNcU



https://youtu.be/GAiepTZ66Hs

It works better with a nylon hammer, but it drops the striker every time. The gun would not go off due to the striker channel blocker, but the trigger is dead until the slide is run.

Those impacts are coming from different angles. If we consider the impact as coming straight up, in the mallet test the gun is oriented slightly muzzle up, and the dresser test, the gun is muzzle down.

In a muzzle-up impact, the inertia of the slide could cause it to be retracted slightly relative to the frame. (similar to what happens during auto-forwarding, except here the slide is moving slightly out of battery, vs moving slightly back off the slide catch) That may play a role in whether or not the striker drops.

[Rick_ICT]

In the first video,the pistol is held by the slide from the forward end. In the latter,its held in the grip.

It strikes me as important because holstered ,the VP9 would be retained by a holster,probably supported in the fashion of Video 1. The $64,000 question is will the gun do this in a holster if the grip is bashed against the concrete ,say in a hands on fight situation.


Wow, fascinating thread. After reading it, I immediately had to go grab the VP9 out of the safe and a big rubber mallet from the garage and try it for myself. At first, I held the gun as if in a strong-hand only firing grip and whacked the bejeezus out of the bottom of the grip repeatedly. I could not get the striker to release no matter what, even whacking it hard enough to simulate what I thought would likely be the impact from slipping and bashing the butt of the pistol onto hard ground.

Then I remembered GardoneVT's post, and tried gripping the pistol around the front of the slide/dust cover and sure enough, I was able to get it to release with a whack on the butt of the gun. It wouldn't happen every whack, but it would do it somewhat frequently and with a much lighter hit than what I was using when I had a proper grip on the pistol and couldn't get it to release.

So, at least with my sample of one, it appears that how you are holding the pistol does make a difference on whether or not you can reproduce these results.

Very interesting, indeed!

[Peally]

Bro your on another level speed wise but I don't even think you could manage to manually reset the trigger during a reload. Ya they were neat pistols but never got me with that coolness. I just find it interesting that these two guns seem to have something interesting happening but the FNS seemed to gain a lot more traction.

I was just thinking it might half reset just by way of taking your finger off of it during the reload but I have no idea how the gun works ;)

The video posted explains it a lot more. Just on idle observation it looks like the FNS issue is much easier to accidentally replicate.

[ADKilla]

Those of you who would know, could this make a difference in the effect internally on the VP9 trigger of an impulse force like a mallet strike?

I went back and hit the rear of the grip...no dead striker/no dead trigger. I tried again, this time gripping the front of slide and whacking the rear of the grip...no dead striker/no dead trigger. My VP9 is an early, non-LE model.

[BobLoblaw]

The VP9 uses magazines that protrude well past the base of the grip so I would say this test is only useful for the scenario of dropping your gun during a reload and it landing just right on the ground. Insert a full mag of dummies and then try it.

[Grey]

Just tried whacking the shit outta my VP9 when loading a mag and with a mag loaded (no rounds obviously) and can't get the striker to fall.

[TAZ]

The VP9 uses magazines that protrude well past the base of the grip so I would say this test is only useful for the scenario of dropping your gun during a reload and it landing just right on the ground. Insert a full mag of dummies and then try it.

1+ to doing the test with a loaded mag. Otherwise it's an issue if you drop your gun during a tac reload and it hits just right. Sux that it would drop the striker, but may not be as huge an impact on most folks.

Anyone get feedback from HK on this feature?

[balance]

I'd at least like to know why the striker is being released.

Personally, I'm curious how the OP found out about this. I'm doubtful that he just went at it with a mallet to see what would happen. Was there some set of circumstances that happened for the OP to find out about this?

[GardoneVT]

For those with the popped strikers:

How often do you clean your pistol? Is it modified ? Was your pistol loaded +1 or just a full mag?
Just some queries to help localize a common trait .

[GJM]

In the case of my Q5, it was aggressively seating the magazine that dropped the striker.

[Maca]

if you drop the gun while it's unloaded (during a reload), you will have to drop or rack the slide to chamber a round, which by the sound of this "problem", will reset the striker.

i don't see an issue here.

its amazing how the internet blows every conceivable "issue" out of proportion.

i have not had a single failure of any kind with my vp9, in over 3500 rounds, in multiple classes in various conditions. sometime i wish people would just shoot their guns, rather than twist their brain around hypotheticals.

[Maca]

People were, at least initially before the context was lost, talking about in battery reloads.

sorry, i missed that part. in that case, you would run it like any other malfunction...tap, rack

i love the vp9...but i do carry an hk45c.

[StraitR]

i don't see an issue here.

Nobody sees the issue when it's a gun they use, like, and invested money in. There are copious examples, even on PF. Check out the various glock extraction threads, no issues there. My 1911's don't have a FPB, no issue there. We're all guilty.




its amazing how the internet blows every conceivable "issue" out of proportion.

This statement amuses me.

[GardoneVT]

if you drop the gun while it's unloaded (during a reload), you will have to drop or rack the slide to chamber a round, which by the sound of this "problem", will reset the striker.

i don't see an issue here.

its amazing how the internet blows every conceivable "issue" out of proportion.

i have not had a single failure of any kind with my vp9, in over 3500 rounds, in multiple classes in various conditions. sometime i wish people would just shoot their guns, rather than twist their brain around hypotheticals.
Overhyped "issues" with regard to guns predates the modern era. Not long ago people were concerned a Beretta used by LE could be field stripped by an assailant held at gunpoint via the takedown lever, "Lethal Weapon 4" style. It was considered a serious enough issue that Beretta made a "low profile" takedown pin in response. The notion of an attacker having the reflexes to seize a drawn gun, flip the lever,and remove the slide before the owner pulled the trigger is hilariously improbable. But it didn't stop the hype.

[call_me_ski]

Nobody sees the issue when it's a gun they use, like, and invested money in. There are copious examples, even on PF. Check out the various glock extraction threads, no issues there. My 1911's don't have a FPB, no issue there. We're all guilty.



This statement amuses me.

I can't help but feel that if this was happening to a Ruger there wouldn't be a discussion regarding the validity of this concern. A firearm that drops the striker when bumped is unsatisfactory. Full stop.

[GJM]

You guys are going to make me go dig a VP9 out of the safe, aren't you?

Please do and report on what you figure out!

[Talionis]

I finally managed to get a VP9 to have a dead trigger. It would not do it no matter how I hit it if I had any contact with the slide, but if I held just the front of the frame and hit the front strap on something hard, like swinging a hammer, it would occasionally end up with a dead trigger. It took a lot of experimenting with angles and holding the gun in exactly the right way to replicate the issue, but it did happen. What you make of that is up to you.

[Rick_ICT]

Took me three tries and I got this to happen on mine (BF date code, sold as an LE model). Very interesting. Just set the striker and gave it a moderate (but firm) whack on my kitchen counter....dead trigger. I agree with others that in theory at least this shouldn't lead to a discharge, as the striker block should still be in place, but this is without question something that is important to be aware of.


Bill, how were you gripping the gun when you were able to reproduce it? I think so far you are the only other one in the thread who was able to beside me and OP. I couldn't duplicate it no matter how hard I whacked it while holding the pistol by its grip, it was only once I grabbed it near the muzzle that I could duplicate the striker releasing.



(snip)...i don't see an issue here.

its amazing how the internet blows every conceivable "issue" out of proportion.

i have not had a single failure of any kind with my vp9, in over 3500 rounds, in multiple classes in various conditions. sometime i wish people would just shoot their guns, rather than twist their brain around hypotheticals.


I haven't seen anybody running around this thread with their hair on fire screaming "Sell all the HK's!!!!!!11!!!1!!" Someone reported an unexpected observation, others tried to reproduce it. Some were able to, others could not. Discussion ensued. So what? I wish people who weren't interested in discussing or debating a particular topic could bring themselves to simply ignore it rather than feel compelled to inform everyone in it that they are all wrong, the subject is verboten and needs to be dropped immediately. But, maybe that's just me.



People were, at least initially before the context was lost, talking about in battery reloads.


So I went and read the 320 Journey thread and re-read this one, and I don't know if I'm missing something, read the wrong other thread, or something didn't transfer in the split but I can't find where this VP9 striker thing originally came up. Has anyone reported actually having this happen upon seating a magazine in a VP9? I know GJM stated he experienced it with a Walther, but so far the only people who have claimed in this thread to have reproduced this striker drop and explained how they were gripping it at the time were holding the gun in a very unnatural position near the muzzle. Am I missing it (entirely within the realm of possibility for me)?


EDIT: I see Talonis posted while I was typing that he was also able to get a VP9 to release the striker, but also had to hold it in some bizarre fashion and hit it just right to do it.

[Balisong]

If I may make another suggestion. It seems to me that in addition to the "vigorous" reloads, the other situation this could be bad is when the gun is in the holster and there's impact either from a tussle or just banging it against a wall or doorway accidentally (especially if carried OWB) Perhaps you fine folks could do some testing with your VP9s in a holster on you while smacking different parts of it with the mallet? I also think it's a good idea to experiment with it with a mag full of dummies and one in the chamber. I have a VP40, and I'll see if I can dig up a rubber or nylon mallet/hammer and try, but I don't have any dummy rounds or snap caps.

[Peally]

I have completely some truly fucked up slammed in 100% missed reloads and not had a dead gun. It sounds like you need to have the gun stabilized only by the muzzle for it to happen?

[1slow]

Overhyped "issues" with regard to guns predates the modern era. Not long ago people were concerned a Beretta used by LE could be field stripped by an assailant held at gunpoint via the takedown lever, "Lethal Weapon 4" style. It was considered a serious enough issue that Beretta made a "low profile" takedown pin in response. The notion of an attacker having the reflexes to seize a drawn gun, flip the lever,and remove the slide before the owner pulled the trigger is hilariously improbable. But it didn't stop the hype.

I was in a constables class years ago and was picked to be the Beretta holder. This was a pistol checked empty by 3+ people. Instructor moved to grab the slide and I pulled the trigger multiple times before he got a grip. In reality he would have been shot a bunch.
Stupid human tricks. Why take the gun apart ? If you can get off line and grab the gun, tear their joints and keep the gun whole.

[GJM]

I have completely some truly fucked up slammed in 100% missed reloads and not had a dead gun. It sounds like you need to have the gun stabilized only by the muzzle for it to happen?

The question is whether it is a design issue effecting all VP9 pistols, or some tolerance stacking that may effect just some subset of VP9 pistols. Based on my Q5 experience, I would bet a PF dollar, that it is only some subset. Hopefully HK follows this, does their own testing, and if confirmed, modifies something to eliminate it in the future.

[JSGlock34]

It seems to me that in addition to the "vigorous" reloads, the other situation this could be bad is when the gun is in the holster and there's impact either from a tussle or just banging it against a wall or doorway accidentally (especially if carried OWB).

Agreed that the potential for a dead striker in the holster is concerning, particularly in military service (plenty of opportunities for holstered pistols to get banged around - airborne and air assault operations leap to mind).

[EVP]

I don't think I would read too much into this.

I hate to admit it but when I had a vp9 I accidentally dropped it loaded in its holster on concreate from about 5 feet. The stiker remained in its cocked position.

Now a more relevant test would be a vp9 loaded with snap caps and 1 in the chamber and simulate drop tests.

[Sensei]

I have 3 VP9s and a VP9sk. I spent 30 min whacking each against various wooden, concrete, and metal surfaces. I could not replicate this phenomenon in any pistol. Moreover, dents and dings in my magazine baseplates and grips incurred during this "test" saved me a couple hundred bucks from having to send my guns off to get that battleworn look...;)

[littlejerry]

The question is whether it is a design issue effecting all VP9 pistols, or some tolerance stacking that may effect just some subset of VP9 pistols. Based on my Q5 experience, I would bet a PF dollar, that it is only some subset. Hopefully HK follows this, does their own testing, and if confirmed, modifies something to eliminate it in the future.

Agree with GJM on this one. Would add that wear may be a concern as well over time as slide to frame fit and barrel lock up changes over the course of 10-20,000 rounds. It's not a stretch to imagine some "good" samples today exhibiting the failure down the road as some parts wear and others are replaced.

[TCB]

So VP9s don't make good hammers?

[Sensei]

So VP9s don't make good hammers?

That is correct. All 4 of mine failed to defeat both intermediate and hardened barriers.

[9mm_shooter]

It's probably broken. Send it back to H&K. Mine is in the same BF LE serial number, and after trying to replicate the video, was unable to reproduce the results.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Doc_Glock]

I'd at least like to know why the striker is being released.

Personally, I'm curious how the OP found out about this. I'm doubtful that he just went at it with a mallet to see what would happen. Was there some set of circumstances that happened for the OP to find out about this?

I took a good look at the system. I saw that the only thing holding the striker catch up was a spring. I wondered hmmmm....

As an aside the P320 similarly uses only a spring to hold the striker catch up. No amount of pounding can make my P320s drop the striker.

I no longer have a VP9 to test, but next time at range I will grab the one off the rental wall, load with dummies and see how it goes. I can't see how a magazine present will change the test at all. It involves sudden upward acceleration allowing the striker catch to remain in place while the frame accelerates up enough to drop the striker.

[Doc_Glock]

For those with the popped strikers:

How often do you clean your pistol? Is it modified ? Was your pistol loaded +1 or just a full mag?
Just some queries to help localize a common trait .

My pistol was new, fairly clean with only about 200 rounds through it and factory lubed. I only tried it empty.

[Greg]

9:45 PM - Hmmm... I wonder what's happening on Pistol-Forum?

9:54 PM - They're womping VP9s with rubber mallets. Excellent.

:cool:

[breakingtime91]

11:20PM- hmm, if the hk koolaid wasn't so strong we would be having a serious conversation on how detrimental this "possible" situation would be to have in a carry pistol.

[Mike C]

11:20PM- hmm, if the hk koolaid wasn't so strong we would be having a serious conversation on how detrimental this "possible" situation would be to have in a carry pistol.

or... we could just move on to a TDA HK or back to LEM and swear off all striker guns from now on because they will get you kilt on the streetz.


I have 3 VP9s and a VP9sk. I spent 30 min whacking each against various wooden, concrete, and metal surfaces. I could not replicate this phenomenon in any pistol. Moreover, dents and dings in my magazine baseplates and grips incurred during this "test" saved me a couple hundred bucks from having to send my guns off to get that battleworn look...;)

So damn funny I think I peed a little.

[breakingtime91]

or... we could just move on to a TDA HK or back to LEM and swear off all striker guns from now on because they will get you kilt on the streetz.

for realz, thats the type of thread that got me on that whole lem thing for two years

[Mike C]

lol, full circle? Aren't you back to the G-locks?

[breakingtime91]

lol, full circle? Aren't you back to the G-locks?

Yup and extremely happy to be. I bought the hk koolaid hard and I think I have even lost friends because I stopped believing it. This thread interests me because a thread just like this basically ended the fns on this fourm.

[Mike C]

Those be some shallow people, not a loss at all. On that same note HK's are great guns and I drink some of the koolaid but seriously they aren't the end all be all, I love the shit out of that little 43 for example nothing else that good on the market, the little thing is fucking unstoppable as far as I can tell with only one gripe. Needs Gadget! Last thread drift you know because 7 pages and no real one in sight yet. Whose palms need to be greased or what organ needs be donated to be a beta tester for one?

No seriously... Tom if your listening I have spare organs, I'm sure we've got a Doc on here who can do the harvesting. I know where you live and they fetch good money on the open market. I really need a Gadget for my 43's.

Back on topic, I will definitely be following this thread. FNS wasn't/ins't a horrible gun and you're right I think the dead trigger nuked any chances of it being taken really seriously on here. Now than I'm thinking about it I might even go link this thread on another forum just to watch heads explode. I'm sure I could scoop up some more VP9's on the cheap that way!

[Trukinjp13]

Yup and extremely happy to be. I bought the hk koolaid hard and I think I have even lost friends because I stopped believing it. This thread interests me because a thread just like this basically ended the fns on this fourm.

Which sucks, because they were very early guns. Fn found out and fixed the problem.

[ffhounddog]

So glad I carry a Glock 19 or P2000v3 with USP/c match spring and the nickel plated flat spring.

Maybe I should get rid of the threaded barrel and jmck iwb3 Holster for the VP-9 now?

I just want to dump my Sig p320 because I just don't like it.

[GJM]

Considering price, factory and after market support, accuracy, reliability, durability, serviceability and shootability, each of the various platforms have their pluses and minuses. A possible issue like this, involving some subset of pistols in a pretty unlikely scenario, is unlikely to dissuade anyone now seriously shooting a VP9, but will likely reinforce the thinking of those shooting other platforms. No different than BTF with the Glock, accuracy with the M&P, pitting on the barrels of Walther PPQ .45 pistols, short lived TRS on HK LEM, locking blocks on the 92, reliability issues with P series pistols, or any of the other perceived shortcomings that occupy so many threads on various gun forums.

[nwhpfan]

So how many foot pounds does it take to mess up the VP9 trigger exactly?

And what other things can you induce if you hit your gun with a hammer?

[nwhpfan]

Considering price, factory and after market support, accuracy, reliability, durability, serviceability and shootability, each of the various platforms have their pluses and minuses. A possible issue like this, involving some subset of pistols in a pretty unlikely scenario, is unlikely to dissuade anyone now seriously shooting a VP9, but will likely reinforce the thinking of those shooting other platforms. No different than BTF with the Glock, accuracy with the M&P, pitting on the barrels of Walther PPQ .45 pistols, short lived TRS on HK LEM, locking blocks on the 92, reliability issues with P series pistols, or any of the other perceived shortcomings that occupy so many threads on various gun forums.

Yep, might as well buy a 3k 1911 :)

[ffhounddog]

Yep, might as well buy a 3k 1911 :)

I have one of those.....worst money pit I ever dabbled in.

[Mike C]

Sorry delirious from driving across the country with little sleep. Shouldn't have been interwebbing.

I can't get my sample of two to release the striker. I didn't beat it with a mallet though or hold the gun in any special way. I literally just stuck my two samples in a GLS and my JM Holster and slapped the butt of the gun on the concrete in my garage repeatedly. I didn't get the striker to drop.

I see what people are saying about the mallet and what not but really only see the concern of this if it happens in a duty holster as Gardone was talking about. I still trust my particular guns after my mom scientific test but I'd be curious of whether or not this would happen over a wider sample of guns in various conditions with the gun locked into a holster like I tried. If it doesn't happen under those conditions I wouldn't be freaking about it. If it does than I think that is reason to move on to another platform.

[WOLFIE]

What are the chances of incurring a dead trigger from simply dropping the gun? What are the chances of incurring a dead trigger from some type of impact while the gun is holstered? From what i have read so far, the gun must be held by a person while being impacted. For a dead trigger to happen, must there be some type of specific force applied such as vibration? ?

It would bother me if this could happen from slamming a magazine in with a lot if force.

[RevolverRob]

So...

Has anyone actually reported this issue directly to HK, yet? And heard what they had to say about it?

OP didn't do it...despite making a video about it. Has anyone else?

I don't currently have a horse in this fight, because I'm running P30 LEMs right now, but next up are going to be VP9s for me. More importantly to me, I recommend VP9s to family and friends from time-to-time. I don't trust them to run malfunction drills properly if the gun doesn't go bang, to be honest (because most of them don't practice). So, I try to pick a platform I would trust to run 100% of the time. If VP9s are dropping strikers, particularly in real world scenarios (hard reloads or dropping the gun). It needs to be brought to HK's attention and handled.

Now, I'm not particularly worried if you can only replicate this scenario by hitting it with a rubber mallet. My mother isn't going to hit the VP9 in her sock drawer with a rubber mallet...But she might drop it accidentally, for instance.

[EVP]

I posted this a couple a pages back.


I don't think I would read too much into this.

I hate to admit it but when I had a vp9 I accidentally dropped it loaded in its holster on concreate from about 5 feet. The stiker remained in its cocked position.

Now a more relevant test would be a vp9 loaded with snap caps and 1 in the chamber and simulate drop tests.

[Rick_ICT]

What are the chances of incurring a dead trigger from simply dropping the gun? What are the chances of incurring a dead trigger from some type of impact while the gun is holstered? From what i have read so far, the gun must be held by a person while being impacted. For a dead trigger to happen, must there be some type of specific force applied such as vibration? ?

It would bother me if this could happen from slamming a magazine in with a lot if force.


I'll take a crack at this, but let me begin by stressing that I am no engineer, physicist, etc., etc. I probably won't use the proper terminology and so forth, but hopefully my meaning will be clear. I'm probably going to be overly simplistic in my explanation because I'm a simple guy and this is how I feel I can best communicate what I'm trying to say. So, most of you will probably read this and roll your eyes thinking "No sh_t, Sherlock". No offense is intended by my oversimplification.


If you take a look at a the parts diagram on Brownell's website (http://www.brownells.com/schematics/Heckler-Koch/VP9-sid1157.aspx#s160132sid1157), the "catch" (part #46) catches the striker (#17) as the slide closes, and holds it fully tensioned against the forward pressure on the striker created by the mainspring (#13). The catch pivots on a pin attaching it to the insert at its forward end and is captured at its rear end by a lip which catches under the rear edge of the insert it sits in. This limits the upward travel of the catch which is being pressed up toward the slide (into the path of the striker) by the catch spring (#47). The catch spring is pretty stout, and creates a fair amount of upward force holding the catch in the way of (and retaining) the striker. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar presses backward on the sear (#45), which pivots on the pin attaching it to the insert and presses downward on the rear lip of the catch where it normally rests. This presses the catch down, compressing the catch spring and sliding it out of the path of the striker until the striker can slip past it and fly forward to impact the primer (assuming the striker block has been deactivated by the trigger bar).


Therefore, under ordinary circumstances the catch is being held in place retaining the striker by a combination of the stout catch spring pushing it up, and the very strong striker spring which is pressing the catch forward against its pivot pin. Because the interface of the striker and catch is above the catch pivot pin I believe the force of the striker spring is also imparting some amount of upward force pressing on the catch.


In order for the catch to release the striker by means other than the trigger bar pressing the sear downward to move the catch, it has to overcome those two forces trying to hold it in place. The catch itself is a relatively small and lightweight part as is the sear which is also resting on it at its rear end. I don't think the mass of the catch itself or in combination with the free end of the sear resting on it is sufficient to overcome by its own momentum the forces holding it in place in the event the pistol is dropped or the butt slammed into something. I think this is why I was unable to cause the striker to slip in my pistol no matter how hard I struck the butt of the gun while holding the grip. The catch and sear simply don't have enough inertia to overcome the forces holding them in place relative to the striker. I'm probably using all of those terms incorrectly, but hopefully you are getting my point.


On the other hand, I was able to get the striker to slip off the catch on my pistol when I held it by the slide near the muzzle and whacked the butt of the gun. I think in this case, it is more a matter of moving the entire gun including the striker very rapidly relative to the stationary catch. In other words, I think this only works if you manage to knock the striker off of the catch, vs. knocking the catch off of the striker if that makes any sense. I very seriously doubt you could cause this malfunction by slamming a magazine into the gun as hard as possible or even falling with the gun in a holster and slamming the butt into the ground. I generally reload hard enough to cause the slide to "auto-forward" upon seating of the magazine, and it's never happened to me although I will be the first to admit most here are probably faster and seating their magazine much harder than me when reloading with purpose.


I originally purchased my VP9 for AIWB carry, and after putting several thousand rounds through it came to the conclusions that A) The gun is too tall for me to conceal effectively on my frame and B) I'm not comfortable carrying a SFA AIWB. Therefore, it has become something of a safe queen and I do not have a proper belt holster to test it with. I've toyed with the idea of trying IPSC with it, but so far that is just a thought and I am reluctant to "game" with a SFA when I carry a TDA. Sorry I can't really offer much more in the way of testing. I will say that I'm not personally very concerned about this revelation for my use-case but if I were carrying this gun for self-defense or if I were an armed professional carrying a VP for duty, I would probably want a little more information and testing to see if this could be duplicated in a holster. I strongly doubt that it could. If you were to tell me tomorrow that you were going to drop me in a bad place and I could choose one handgun and a bunch of magazines to take with me, I think I could do a lot worse than a VP9. I almost assuredly wouldn't make it out, but it wouldn't be on account of the gun! :)

[Doc_Glock]

Hopefully this is my last post in this thread.

I went to the range today and borrowed the well used VP9 and a small nylon hammer.

Wack to bottom of grip without mag: striker dropped.

Wack to bottom of grip with magazine present: striker dropped. It seemed to take a firmer wack though.

Wack to bottom of grip with a couple dummy rounds and one chambered: striker dropped.

I was not allowed to shoot video so sorry about that. If I still owned a VP9 I would be happy to demonstrate.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/fe6f6f741a311e1462092cf4e81d35ca.jpg

To be clear, I think the VP9 is a fine pistol. I have no vendetta, but I don't think any modern pistol should drop its striker or hammer with rough handling.

I would love to hear HK's or possibly Bruce Gray's perspective on this anyone has any inroads with either.

[KPD]

Thank you for the information.
I will be trying this on my issued VP9. If I can reproduce the same problem then I guess I will be toting the P229 again.......

[BenM2Tac]

Not to derail this thread, speaking of dropping strikers , my PPS M2 fell out of my crossbreed holster landed slide down and discharged. Take that for what its worth my striker definitely fell , It was a bone stock PPS M2

[BenM2Tac]

I'm heavily debating selling my VP9 due to this , it pains me because i'm a huge HK fan but i'm starting to believe that it is not built to that HK standard. If someone could replicate this with a live chamber to see if the gun actually fires that would be cool. I'm a controlled setting maybe a primed piece of brass or something. I think this is a huge drop safe issue. I know all modern day striker fire guns claim to be drop safe but I don't think so.

[Peally]

I'm pretty pumped to pick up a few $300 VP9s in the classifieds over the next couple months.

[Mike C]

I'm heavily debating selling my VP9 due to this , it pains me because i'm a huge HK fan but i'm starting to believe that it is not built to that HK standard. If someone could replicate this with a live chamber to see if the gun actually fires that would be cool. I'm a controlled setting maybe a primed piece of brass or something. I think this is a huge drop safe issue. I know all modern day striker fire guns claim to be drop safe but I don't think so.

If you are carrying the VP as a duty gun and could replicate this in a holster as if you were to be slammed on the ground in a fight, or if the gun auto forwarded to a dead trigger I can see worrying about it. But, to date I've heard,read or experienced any of those issues and I'd, "bet a PF dollar" that if there were some serious flees with the VP's like the two I've listed someone on this forum would find them. Especially at the usages schedules some of the members here run. If you can't replicate it in some capacity like listed or don't carry it in a duty capacity where these things are a possibility I don't know that I would fret about it but that's just me.

[Mike C]

I'm pretty pumped to pick up a few $300 VP9s in the classifieds over the next couple months.

No way man, you've moved to the dark side. I've got 1st dibs. :p

[breakingtime91]

If you are carrying the VP as a duty gun and could replicate this in a holster as if you were to be slammed on the ground in a fight, or if the gun auto forwarded to a dead trigger I can see worrying about it. But, to date I've heard,read or experienced any of those issues and I'd, "bet a PF dollar" that if there were some serious flees with the VP's like the two I've listed someone on this forum would find them. Especially at the usages schedules some of the members here run. If you can't replicate it in some capacity like listed or don't carry it in a duty capacity where these things are a possibility I don't know that I would fret about it but that's just me.

I can't recall why but SLG voice that he wasn't convinced that the VP9 was ever exhaustively tested or proven to be duty ready. I wish I would of asked more but alas, I didn't.

[Mike C]

If he said something I'd listen up. I'd be curious on the details for certain but don't think it would change my opinion unless there we a rash of issues or new finding based on solid documented and scientific testing.

[Beat Trash]

I've tried holding my VP9 by the muzzle lightly and firmly as I whacked the crap out of the butt of my gun with a rubber mallet. I was not able to get my sear to drop.

If I could have caused the sear to drop, especially if the gun were holstered, then I'd be gravely concerned.

[holmes168]

I have 2 VP 9's and a new SK. I beat the pistols yesterday trying to replicate what happened to the OP's but couldn't do it. I appreciate the feedback on this issue but am 100% comfortable carrying my VP's as my CCW. They have worked flawlessly for me so far. One of my final decision points in picking the VP over the Glock is when the top of my bald head got burned due to brass that was ejected straight back. I must say that it was quite distracting when that happened.
Also- I don't tend to be in places that someone is going to body slam me to the ground. If that happens- I believe I have failed to deescalate the situation for sure. Could it happen- yes of course it could. Do I feel fine with a VP if it does- yes I do based on my testing. If I smacked it or did something weird in the course of my day while carrying I'd fix it on the spot or as soon as I could. That is why I think the MAC you tube torture tests are a bit silly. I spent plenty of time in the field as an infantryman and took care of my weapons before I took care of anything else.
Also- I don't question the validity of the OP or others testing but I was unable to replicate it. Sorry- I don't mean to rant but I do want readers to know my experience. Anyway- I appreciate all opinions on this forum and realize my pistol proficiency is not as high as others but I really do like the VP platform for me.

Sent from my iPhone while not paying attention to a conference call five hours before I go on vacation!

[Rodney Ledbetter]

I will continue carrying a VP9 daily.

[LockedBreech]

I have 2 VP 9's and a new SK. I beat the pistols yesterday trying to replicate what happened to the OP's but couldn't do it. I appreciate the feedback on this issue but am 100% comfortable carrying my VP's as my CCW. They have worked flawlessly for me so far. One of my final decision points in picking the VP over the Glock is when the top of my bald head got burned due to brass that was ejected straight back. I must say that it was quite distracting when that happened.
Also- I don't tend to be in places that someone is going to body slam me to the ground. If that happens- I believe I have failed to deescalate the situation for sure. Could it happen- yes of course it could. Do I feel fine with a VP if it does- yes I do based on my testing. If I smacked it or did something weird in the course of my day while carrying I'd fix it on the spot or as soon as I could. That is why I think the MAC you tube torture tests are a bit silly. I spent plenty of time in the field as an infantryman and took care of my weapons before I took care of anything else.
Also- I don't question the validity of the OP or others testing but I was unable to replicate it. Sorry- I don't mean to rant but I do want readers to know my experience. Anyway- I appreciate all opinions on this forum and realize my pistol proficiency is not as high as others but I really do like the VP platform for me.

Sent from my iPhone while not paying attention to a conference call five hours before I go on vacation!

Did not think this was a rant at all. Very polite disagreement.

I agree that even with this concern I'd probably be happy enough with my VP as primary. I'm trying to sell it because I liked the G17 more but it was a good, good gun that shot very accurately and I had no issues in about 1,000 rounds, 500 without cleaning.

[Guinnessman]

Add me to the list of those that had to go whack the crap out of their VP9's to see if I could drop the striker. Both of my guns passed the test.

[ca survivor]

I've owned HKs since the day I could afford them, first for me was a HK P-7 M13 (only gun I've made money on when sold) added Sigs when I mastered that the decocker lever was not the slide release, had twelve Glocks at one time, down to five now, I will continue to carry HKs with the least worry that it will fail me and one is a VP-9.

[RJ]

Did this test today. BF code VP9 with 3,100+ rounds. Bought new in 2015 and fired only by me. Empty 15 round magazine inserted.

Used a Stanley 13 oz wood handle steel hammer (all I have).
Gun was held as per Enel's video, and struck sharply upward on the butt, approximating the same stroke.

I tried 10 times, varying impact position from front to rear of the magazine floorplate.

I got no failures; the trigger released normally after every impact.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/1ff0877703f3c20a28ee493983341fb9.jpg

[breakingtime91]

Is it possible to say these two things now?
1)there are some vp9s that exhibit an issue and some that do not.
2)Someone should contact hk and ask wtf

[RJ]

Is it possible to say these two things now?
1)there are some vp9s that exhibit an issue and some that do not.
2)Someone should contact hk and ask wtf

Either that or we start training to shoot the nylon hammers dude is carrying in his hand. :cool:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Ya, I guess it'd be up to one of the (3?) folks who reported this failure to call HK.

I can't replicate it, so for now, I'm gonna rock on.

[Mjolnir]

Not to derail this thread, speaking of dropping strikers , my PPS M2 fell out of my crossbreed holster landed slide down and discharged. Take that for what its worth my striker definitely fell , It was a bone stock PPS M2

Yet people tinker with the FCG to get lighter trigger pulls.

This *SHOULD* give the awakened some measure of pause...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[breakingtime91]

Either that or we start training to shoot the nylon hammers dude is carrying in his hand. :cool:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Ya, I guess it'd be up to one of the (3?) folks who reported this failure to call HK.

I can't replicate it, so for now, I'm gonna rock on.

Vp 9 checklist:
Bad with sand, check
Bad with dirt, check
Bad with water, check
Bad with mud, check
Bad with nylon hammer, check :p

[Dr. No]

Where in the world do you people come up with these obscure "problems"?? This is so far in the realm of "close to never ever happening" it's mystifying.

On a related note, I would recommend against anyone striking any handgun you own with a hammer.

[RJ]

Vp 9 checklist:
Bad with sand, check
Bad with dirt, check
Bad with water, check
Bad with mud, check
Bad with nylon hammer, check :p

Don't forget choking on Steel ammo. :cool:

Ok, sorry, I'll stop. :)

[Doc_Glock]

Did this test today. BF code VP9 with 3,100+ rounds. Bought new in 2015 and fired only by me. Empty 15 round magazine inserted.

Used a Stanley 13 oz wood handle steel hammer (all I have).
Gun was held as per Enel's video, and struck sharply upward on the butt, approximating the same stroke.

I tried 10 times, varying impact position from front to rear of the magazine floorplate.

I got no failures; the trigger released normally after every impact.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/1ff0877703f3c20a28ee493983341fb9.jpg

Dang! That is commitment to testing. I didn't want folks injuring their guns.

I am also glad to see so many passing this test. I am not sure why I am so adept at getting it to drop. My two examples were an older many thousand round rental gun and a new, 100 round CDDN clearance gun from last fall. Sadly I don't have serial numbers.

[farscott]

I do not have a VP9, but I do have a S&W M&P, which (early samples) also suffered from a "dead trigger" issue. The S&W issue happened during live fire when the sear spring was not strong enough, and the gun cycled from firing a live round and essentially de-cocked itself. I wonder if the OP is seeing something similar, where the catch (compression) spring that presses the sear upward is weak(ened) due to wear/debris/tolerance stacking/something. With the spring force lessened due to some reason, a strike to the grip frame is allowing the catch spring to release. I also wonder if there is a service schedule for the catch spring.

[Father of 3]

Reminds me of this

17633

Maybe they were on to something :p

[Rick_ICT]

I do not have a VP9, but I do have a S&W M&P, which (early samples) also suffered from a "dead trigger" issue. The S&W issue happened during live fire when the sear spring was not strong enough, and the gun cycled from firing a live round and essentially de-cocked itself. I wonder if the OP is seeing something similar, where the catch (compression) spring that presses the sear upward is weak(ened) due to wear/debris/tolerance stacking/something. With the spring force lessened due to some reason, a strike to the grip frame is allowing the catch spring to release. I also wonder if there is a service schedule for the catch spring.


I'd guess I'm still under 5k rounds through my VP9 and I was able to replicate the issue. Also, the compression spring under my catch feels quite stout. My VP9 has shot flawlessly and I have no intention of parting with it over this "problem." I would also bet money that since I know how to duplicate the issue, I could make pretty much any VP9 do it even new OOB. And probably other fully-tensioned striker fired guns as well, so long as they release the striker by the catch being pressed straight down from their resting position. It's almost like a parlor trick, it just takes knowing how to hold it for minimal support and maximum movement of the rear of the gun on impact, and how to hit it to essentially move the entire gun with the striker firmly ensconced in the slide very quickly in relation to the temporarily (as in instantaneously) stationary catch. I strongly doubt falling and striking the butt of a holstered weapon could cause it for reasons I outlined in my previous post (mass of the catch). However, potentially if the weapon's butt were struck very hard with some sort of club or bat while it was holstered, and depending on how firmly the holster was secured to the person wearing it, eh, maaaaaybe... but I'm not volunteering to have anybody swing a bat in my general direction, even if it is for science.



Hopefully this is my last post in this thread.

I went to the range today and borrowed the well used VP9 and a small nylon hammer.

Wack to bottom of grip without mag: striker dropped.

Wack to bottom of grip with magazine present: striker dropped. It seemed to take a firmer wack though.

Wack to bottom of grip with a couple dummy rounds and one chambered: striker dropped.

I was not allowed to shoot video so sorry about that. If I still owned a VP9 I would be happy to demonstrate.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/fe6f6f741a311e1462092cf4e81d35ca.jpg

To be clear, I think the VP9 is a fine pistol. I have no vendetta, but I don't think any modern pistol should drop its striker or hammer with rough handling.

I would love to hear HK's or possibly Bruce Gray's perspective on this anyone has any inroads with either.


You didn't mention how you were gripping the gun when you tested it. Were you holding the gun by the grip, was it in a holster, or were you holding it by the slide near the muzzle like in your original video?



I'm pretty pumped to pick up a few $300 VP9s in the classifieds over the next couple months.


Hell, I hardly shoot the one I've got, and I was able to duplicate OP's concern, but I'd probably have to pick up another one at $300 a whack! :p

[Hot Sauce]

Where in the world do you people come up with these obscure "problems"?? This is so far in the realm of "close to never ever happening" it's mystifying.

On a related note, I would recommend against anyone striking any handgun you own with a hammer.I used the bottom of the grip and the top of the slide of my Simunitions gun in ECQC to strike my opponent. So if this is really happening with people's guns, I'm not sure why you insist on calling this problem a "problem."

[LockedBreech]

Reminds me of this

17633

Maybe they were on to something :p

Best post of the thread. Meta to the max.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dr. No]

I used the bottom of the grip and the top of the slide of my Simunitions gun in ECQC to strike my opponent. So if this is really happening with people's guns, I'm not sure why you insist on calling this problem a "problem."
The fact that you're using a pistol as an impact tool leads me to all sorts of other questions. Isn't Craig's sop to tap rack after someone else touches your gun anyway, which would completely negate this "issue"?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

My mom always asked, "If everybody else beat on their pistol with a hammer, would you do it too?"

So if your pistol takes a hit and the striker is no longer engaged, you tap/rack and drive on? Right?

[Dr. No]

My mom always asked, "If everybody else beat on their pistol with a hammer, would you do it too?"

So if your pistol takes a hit and the striker is no longer engaged, you tap/rack and drive on? Right?
I thought you were supposed to immediately stop and go to the internet to warn others about the problem you encountered in that one in a million chance...?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Tom Duffy]

I remember the bumper sticker, "Real trucks don't have sparkplugs."
Thinking about getting some "Real guns don't have strikers." Who's in on the order? :)

[Doc_Glock]

You didn't mention how you were gripping the gun when you tested it. Were you holding the gun by the grip, was it in a holster, or were you holding it by the slide near the muzzle like in your original video?


Unholstered, held like original video.

[critter]

I thought you were supposed to immediately stop and go to the internet to warn others about the problem you encountered in that one in a million chance...?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

There were a few who could recreate the scenario with the same result. I'd say that's an issue of which others should be aware. If one pistol will effectively (and potentially unknowingly) decock in any manner other than from deliberate intent I'd want to know about it. If more than one pistol is demonstrated to have this slap on the ass undocumented decock feature I'd definitely rather be informed.

[Dr. No]

There were a few who could recreate the scenario with the same result. I'd say that's an issue of which others should be aware. If one pistol will effectively (and potentially unknowingly) decock in any manner other than from deliberate intent I'd want to know about it. If more than one pistol is demonstrated to have this slap on the ass undocumented decock feature I'd definitely rather be informed.
Do you wear a helmet when you drive a car because you might get a tbi when you get into a wreck?

Or how about a bullet proof vest when you go to the movies?

At some point the reality of problems is so obscure it's ridiculous to damn an entire weapon system because of the possibility.

Is it something to be aware of? Sure. Last time I looked, in basic pistol classes I've been taught that if the weapon doesn't fire, you tap rack to fix the problem.

If you press check your weapon every day you should be cocking the striker.

So........ Yeah.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Balisong]

It's amazing to me that information being shared is so annoying to some people participating on a discussion board.

Again, I fail to see how it's unthinkable to some that a gun could be involved in a bump against a wall, a doorway, or in a fight for your life that could potentially result in a dead trigger in this situation. I'm personally glad to be made aware of the possibility so I can make informed decisions on my EDC.

ETA: That being said, this probably wouldn't keep me from carrying a VP9 or VP40 (I don't carry my VP40 though) unless it could be duplicated while in a holster, and even if that was the case, I'd be contacting HK to see if that's an issue that can be corrected, such as an out of spec part or something.

[call_me_ski]

I ask this as an HK guy.

If the pistol being discussed was the Ruger American, would your perception of the problem change?

I have a strong feeling that people would not be so fast to dismiss the problem.

[Dr. No]

I ask this as an HK guy.

If the pistol being discussed was the Ruger American, would your perception of the problem change?

I have a strong feeling that people would not be so fast to dismiss the problem.
Nope, still wouldn't care. As someone has said, it applies to the m&p too. I'm still not panicking for the 1000 guys who carry them for a living in my city.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Dr. No]

I present the fix for this entire thread:

If your gun doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, tap the bottom of the magazine to ensure it's seated, and rack the slide to recock and reload the chamber. Proceed with your business.

You're welcome to tip, but it's not necessary.

Now can we please stop hitting our guns with hammers?

You're welcome.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[critter]

Do you wear a helmet when you drive a car because you might get a tbi when you get into a wreck?

Or how about a bullet proof vest when you go to the movies?

At some point the reality of problems is so obscure it's ridiculous to damn an entire weapon system because of the possibility.

Well, I do refuse to buy a gen4 19 due to not wanting to deal with any potential BTF issues, either fixing them or having a zing to the eye in a Murphy scenario. I use a 23 with a 9mm conversion barrel instead -- flawless. Unpopular yet informed decision which could be taken as damning an entire weapon system. Who gives a shit? My delusion... my rules.

IMO, obscure would be more of a one-off scenario. This, while perhaps not common, doesn't appear so obscure to me when we take the extremely small sample of VP9 users participating in this thread. Can that be extrapolated to the larger user group in general? No. It could be a fluke, but it is good information. Perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention but I didn't notice much 'damning of an entire weapon system' but rather discussion of the issue with some indicating a decision to not carry. That sounds more like informed decision making at a personal level.



Is it something to be aware of? Sure. Last time I looked, in basic pistol classes I've been taught that if the weapon doesn't fire, you tap rack to fix the problem.

If you press check your weapon every day you should be cocking the striker.

So........ Yeah.

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Of course anyone and everyone should practice weapon malfunction drills. So, if not to sarcastically slam the OP for the act of reporting a very real issue with the potential for very real consequences -- exactly what information forums such as this one are designed to discuss -- regardless of and along with perceived probabilities of occurrence, what was the purpose? To remind others to train tap rack malfunction procedure? Fine and dandy. Carry on.

[Dr. No]

Well, I do refuse to buy a gen4 19 due to not wanting to deal with any potential BTF issues, either fixing them or having a zing to the eye in a Murphy scenario. I use a 23 with a 9mm conversion barrel instead -- flawless. Unpopular yet informed decision which could be taken as damning an entire weapon system. Who gives a shit? My delusion... my rules.

IMO, obscure would be more of a one-off scenario. This, while perhaps not common, doesn't appear so obscure to me when we take the extremely small sample of VP9 users participating in this thread. Can that be extrapolated to the larger user group in general? No. It could be a fluke, but it is good information. Perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention but I didn't notice much 'damning of an entire weapon system' but rather discussion of the issue with some indicating a decision to not carry. That sounds more like informed decision making at a personal level.



Of course anyone and everyone should practice weapon malfunction drills. So, if not to sarcastically slam the OP for the act of reporting a very real issue with the potential for very real consequences -- exactly what information forums such as this one are designed to discuss -- regardless of and along with perceived probabilities of occurrence, what was the purpose? To remind others to train tap rack malfunction procedure? Fine and dandy. Carry on.
Because people are freaking out and wanting to abandon their guns because of this issue.

My whole point is: this is obscure and unrealistic. It has an incredibly simple fix which trained individuals already know.

Call HK and report it. Maybe they can fix it. It's not something you really have to worry about in the meantime.

This is Mac's"torture" video all over again.

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[RJ]

In the spirit of lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness, could anyone comment on how 'drop tests' are conducted?

I found one after a quick search; on the Cali DOJ web site:

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/regs/chapter5.pdf

It specifies five drops, gun perpendicular to the surface, onto concrete from a height of 1m, loaded with a primer cap.

The test states "After each of the first five drop tests the DOJ-Certified Laboratory shall determine whether the handgun has been rendered incapable of firing a primed case prior to conducting the next drop test. If so, the handgun model shall either be repaired, or the test shall be stopped..."

The way I read this, a VP9 which failed as per the OPs video would fail the CA drop test.

I guess I have a few questions, mainly for my own education, being new to guns.

1) Is my assessment above correct?

2) Is a repeated 1m drop onto concrete a recognized standard for drop tests across the gun industry?

3) If not, what do manufacturers generally mean when they say a gun is 'drop safe'?

Thanks.

[Dr. No]

3) If not, what do manufacturers generally mean when they say a gun is 'drop safe'?

Thanks.

Drop safe is generally that the gun will not discharge unintentionally if dropped.

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[breakingtime91]

Drop safe is generally that the gun will not discharge unintentionally if dropped.

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I think he is asking from what height... Rich is a pretty intelligent guy, I think he understands the idea.

[RJ]

True, but in fairness to Dr. No, Rich did say this:



which is not accurate.

Gotcha. How about this:

In regard to this statement in the CA DOJ drop test pdf: "the handgun has been rendered incapable of firing a primed case".

I am asking, is this statement and a 'dead trigger' essentially the same thing or no?

[breakingtime91]

True, but in fairness to Dr. No, Rich did say this:



which is not accurate.

Did not check into the accuracy of his statements, just seemed like a common sense answer to a question that was modeled around a more in-depth question. I would be interested to know the force needed to drop the striker (on the ones that did drop) from the nylon hammer compared to a drop from holster or presentation height onto concrete. I would think that more force would happen because the drop than the nylon hammer but I'm not a engineer :)

[RJ]

Did not check into the accuracy of his statements, just seemed like a common sense answer to a question that was modeled around a more in-depth question. I would be interested to know the force needed to drop the striker (on the ones that did drop) from the nylon hammer compared to a drop from holster or presentation height onto concrete. I would think that more force would happen because the drop than the nylon hammer but I'm not a engineer :)

Exactly what I am trying to determine.

Comparing force of a 1.5 lb weight (the VP9) dropped 1m vs impact of a 10 oz nylon hammer swung smartly from 12". Used to be I could have computed this, but that was when dinosaurs walked the earth. :cool:

[octagon]

In the spirit of lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness, could anyone comment on how 'drop tests' are conducted?

I found one after a quick search; on the Cali DOJ web site:

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/regs/chapter5.pdf

It specifies five drops, gun perpendicular to the surface, onto concrete from a height of 1m, loaded with a primer cap.

The test states "After each of the first five drop tests the DOJ-Certified Laboratory shall determine whether the handgun has been rendered incapable of firing a primed case prior to conducting the next drop test. If so, the handgun model shall either be repaired, or the test shall be stopped..."

The way I read this, a VP9 which failed as per the OPs video would fail the CA drop test.

I guess I have a few questions, mainly for my own education, being new to guns.

1) Is my assessment above correct?

2) Is a repeated 1m drop onto concrete a recognized standard for drop tests across the gun industry?

3) If not, what do manufacturers generally mean when they say a gun is 'drop safe'?

Thanks.

From my perspective that drop test would not drop the striker in the H&K VP9 as shown earlier. It states perpendicular to the ground so the gun would hit muzzle down or back of slide down to be perpendicular. If the gun is parallel to the ground and dropped it may be closer to the test VP9 failure shown.

[KPD]

Okay, I wailed on my VP9 and could not reproduce this and got nothing. 2014 production with around 2K rounds through it.

[GJM]

The issue I had with the Walther PPQ Q5, was the striker releasing when I aggressively seated the magazines during slide forward magazine changes. That it only happened to one of my multiple Q5 pistols, suggested tolerance variation, rather than a systemic design problem.

While I wouldn't lose sleep over hitting a VP9 with a specific hammer in a specific method, I would be concerned if seating a mag aggressively caused the striker to drop, because that is an example of a time you might like the good to run right then. No idea if this would also cause some VP9 pistols to release their striker, but I would want to know if they did, if I depended on them.

[Rick_ICT]

I present the fix for this entire thread:

If your gun doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, tap the bottom of the magazine to ensure it's seated, and rack the slide to recock and reload the chamber. Proceed with your business.

You're welcome to tip, but it's not necessary.

Now can we please stop hitting our guns with hammers?

You're welcome.

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But that's what started this whole mess! :cool:

Oh, wait... you didn't mean with a hammer, did you?


The way the gun is designed, this will always be possible if you are willing to hit the gun hard enough while holding it near the muzzle so the rear of the gun can really move on impact. You could make it "practically" impossible by increasing the compression resistance of the catch spring to the point that it would take an Olympic weight lifter swinging a sledge hammer to cause the spring to compress on impact. But then you go from one of the nicest SFA triggers on the market to some monstrosity with a 15+lb trigger pull.

My opinion is that if you are holding a loaded weapon by the muzzle and using the butt of the gun as an impact tool/weapon, your day is already so far off the rails you probably needn't worry about this niggling, remote possibility. And I'm not sure that would even cause the malfunction, but I am unwilling to treat my VP9 that way to test it, loaded or not. To the best of my knowledge no one has been able to cause the malfunction while gripping the gun in anything like the proper manner.

[farscott]

I had this issue (trigger would occasionally not reset during live fire) with an full size M&P40 about a decade ago. I called S&W and they had me send it in (they provided a shipping label). A few days later it was back at my house with the problem fixed. I have no idea what they changed, probably a spring or two. I suspect this "issue" with the VP9 is similar and can be fixed in a similar fashion. If my VP9s did this (the one I beat on with a hammer doesn't and I'm not going to beat on the others), I'd call HK and let them take care of it.

Not an S&W engineer, but my understanding is that S&W fitted a much stronger/larger spring and a revised sear housing block to hold said spring. The really interesting thing with the M&P dead trigger was that a gun would be fine for several hundred or more rounds, then sporadically exhibit the dead trigger during live fire (never during dry fire), and then the occurrence of the issue would increase to such a point as to make the pistol essentially an impact weapon. I have to wonder if the VP9 issue will start as a once in a while issue that becomes a more likely than not issue for those pistols that do exhibit the issue.

[Rick_ICT]

Not an S&W engineer, but my understanding is that S&W fitted a much stronger/larger spring and a revised sear housing block to hold said spring. The really interesting thing with the M&P dead trigger was that a gun would be fine for several hundred or more rounds, then sporadically exhibit the dead trigger during live fire (never during dry fire), and then the occurrence of the issue would increase to such a point as to make the pistol essentially an impact weapon. I have to wonder if the VP9 issue will start as a once in a while issue that becomes a more likely than not issue for those pistols that do exhibit the issue.

But just to keep everything in context, I've seen no one report or point to any reports anywhere of a VP with a dead trigger under any circumstance other than when whacking on the butt of the gun with a hammer while holding it in a certain bizarre fashion. Examples of other guns having that issue have been brought up in the thread, but to my recollection no one has claimed this has ever happened to a VP outside of the bizarre set up laid out in the OP. And I know many people are using them in competition with crazy high round counts and they are used in some duty capacities. Still, no reports of a VP with a dead trigger under normal use that I have seen mentioned.

[JAD]

Have I missed where anyone has talked to HK about this?

[GJM]

Sample of one, but I took a grey (or is it gray) VP9 FS and vigorously slammed magazines in, simulating the problem I had with the Q5, and could not make the striker release. I did make my palm a little sore, though.

[RJ]

Have I missed where anyone has talked to HK about this?

Not that I've seen.


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[hufnagel]

I'm pretty pumped to pick up a few $300 VP9s in the classifieds over the next couple months.

I'm definitely not a SFA guy, but I am a total HK fanboi kool-aid drinker, and at that price even I could be convinced to get one, finally.

[Drunder40]

Took me three tries and I got this to happen on mine (BF date code, sold as an LE model). Very interesting. Just set the striker and gave it a moderate (but firm) whack on my kitchen counter....dead trigger. I agree with others that in theory at least this shouldn't lead to a discharge, as the striker block should still be in place, but this is without question something that is important to be aware of.


I am wondering if the "faulty" VP-9's are restricted to a specific manufacturing run. Has anyone tried to determine if this failure is specific to manufacture dates of the gun?

Just curious.

[hufnagel]

Would someone who's had their firearm do this, in any capacity, PLEASE CALL H&K AND TALK TO SOMEONE THERE.

While this thread interests me, if only slightly beyond the academic, It's incredibly frustrating that no one as bothered to pick up the phone and call the manufacturer. I almost wish Tom could move the whole thread over to HKPRO; it would fit better over there.

[ralph]

Would someone who's had their firearm do this, in any capacity, PLEASE CALL H&K AND TALK TO SOMEONE THERE.

While this thread interests me, if only slightly beyond the academic, It's incredibly frustrating that no one as bothered to pick up the phone and call the manufacturer. I almost wish Tom could move the whole thread over to HKPRO; it would fit better over there.

Actually, I have'nt seen any mention of this over there... yet..those folks would have a meltdown..Maybe someone who is a member there could point this thread out to them, I'll go get some popcorn��

ETA;
There is a post about this on HK Pro, and the sniping has already started.

[shane45]

I had my buddy who was working with HK at an Expo earlier this week ask them. They whipped one out and womped on it and could not reproduce it......

[oldtexan]

Would someone who's had their firearm do this, in any capacity, PLEASE CALL H&K AND TALK TO SOMEONE THERE.

........

I second hufnagel's request. I'm thinking of buying a VP9, as is a buddy of mine, so this issue is of significant interest to me.

[LockedBreech]

There is a post about this on HK Pro, and the sniping has already started.

Just reading those 11 posts was enough to remind me why I only post here anymore.

Edit: No intent to trash talk any particular forum, just expressing my appreciation for this one.

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[ralph]

Just reading those 11 posts was enough to remind me why I only post here anymore.


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I could'nt agree with you more, I left there about 2years ago. It seems the few people who knew a few things, and were willing to share were drown out by the dopes

[TCB]

So, to make sure I'm tracking: VP9s don't make good hammers AND hitting guns with hammers can make them malfunction? Just trying to keep up...

[LockedBreech]

10-4 cap'n, though my edit might fix it but probably shoulda just edited the whole thing out.

[Doc_Glock]

I asked Tom to reopen the thread as I was contacted by another member who duplicated my test on two of his own VP9 pistols. Both dropped the striker to a light mallet rap.

He wondered if anyone had contacted HK about this? I wonder too, and if so what was their response?

I did not personally contact them and long ago sold off my VP9.

[Balisong]

I asked Tom to reopen the thread as I was contacted by another member who duplicated my test on two of his own VP9 pistols. Both dropped the striker to a light mallet rap.

He wondered if anyone had contacted HK about this? I wonder too, and if so what was their response?

I did not personally contact them and long ago sold off my VP9.

I'd be very curious to hear HKs response if someone has contacted them. My VP40 is not currently a defense use gun, so I haven't bothered testing it or worrying about it. But would be nice to know if it's an out of spec thing or an accepted quirk of this gun (assuming it also holds true with the VP40, I don't recall anyone testing one with a mallet)

[JodyH]

I missed this thread the first time around.
My sample of four VP9's and one VP9SK = zero dead triggers despite my best smacks with a rubber mallet.

[Sensei]

I have 3 VP9s and a VP9sk. I spent 30 min whacking each against various wooden, concrete, and metal surfaces. I could not replicate this phenomenon in any pistol. Moreover, dents and dings in my magazine baseplates and grips incurred during this "test" saved me a couple hundred bucks from having to send my guns off to get that battleworn look...;)


I'd be very curious to hear HKs response if someone has contacted them. My VP40 is not currently a defense use gun, so I haven't bothered testing it or worrying about it. But would be nice to know if it's an out of spec thing or an accepted quirk of this gun (assuming it also holds true with the VP40, I don't recall anyone testing one with a mallet)

I pounded on mine 6 months ago with a mallet, wood, and concrete. No issues were encountered. The supplied quote came from the Sig thread but can be also found on page 6 here.

[navyman8903]

This was an interesting read for sure. It was nice that it came back up so I could see it. Currently my wife and I carry VP9's off duty.

That said I have a few relevant questions. But before I get there, I will say if you're worried about your VP9, send it in to HK. I don't think this is a design issue, possibly some out of spec parts. Also a release of the striker and a dead trigger isn't a problem vs an AD. I would much rather have a dead trigger over a round in my knee like a P320.

First question is this. For those worried about impacts on the back of the pistol equal to hitting it with a mallet with that level of force, what would your body have to go through to simulate that force. I don't think it's a light tap or "bumping into a wall." I've rolled around a lot with people over 12 years. Both with a drop leg holster and hip holster. All of the safariland variety. The worst thing I've had happen other than scrapes/scratches. Is I was dead legged by a 6'9" 300lb dude who could deadlift a bus. He picked me up one armed and slammed me on the deck right on my drop leg. It was an enlightening experience. I would should have gone the intermediate weapon route vs trying to wrestle him with 2 other patrolmen.

Second. What normal conditions cause this to happen. The mallet thing is cute, and I see we're pulling a monkey see monkey do with the internet guys who did this to the P320. But honestly, they could drop the gun on the deck and have this happen. I drop tested my VP9 and it was 100%. Same with the other internet channels. I would also once again say, I'm willing to accept a pistol that has to have the trigger reset through remedial action, vs a pistol that has discharged after being dropped. Just sayin.

Third. For those who are ditching their VP9's or shelving them over this. Do you find yourself in these circumstances often? Same with MAC's stupid torture test. How often do you find yourself in over the beach conditions? Or throwing the pistol into the air or at a steel target? Just wondering.


I like my VP9's and it's one of the most consistent guns I've ever fired. Doesn't matter what kind of day I'm having at the range, I can always reset myself and confidence level with my VP9. I can make stressful shots with it that I can only do with maybe 2 or 3 others. And thousands of rounds through the 4 samples in my house without a single issue has not left them wanting. They have performed very well in all conditions I've placed them in. I mean, I'm not doing amphibious assaults with them, or fighting king kong. Maybe I should do those things. Maybe all of you are just more badass than I am(not hard to do). I don't know. But what I do know is, if you just run the gun and see if it fails in your conditions, that you will reasonably see. Then that's the real test. I don't beat my guns, but I'm not easy on them either. I shoot them hot too. Which I've actually found to be one of the hardest things on a gun. As the late great Todd G also found with his P30 test. So......do what you will. I don't think releasing the striker to a dead trigger without discharging a round is a reasonable metric personally to consider the gun flawed. If it's discharging, send it in.

And honestly if you think the gun has a problem, send it back to HK. They test them harder than we do anyway.

[Mjolnir]

Well, whomever it is who has this issue *PLEASE* contact HK USA and keep us posted.

Thank you.

Strange that this requires mentioning...


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[GJM]

For years, I assumed modern service pistols were drop safe. I really did not understand how the various designs, like partially pre tensioned vs fully tensioned strikers, supported sears, trigger tabs and pre travel related as regards to drop safety.

Enel’s thread on the VP9, the PPQ and discussions of after market Glock triggers with reduced pre travel really opened my eyes on this subject. A year or two before the LE guy in CT dropped his 320, and shot himself, I had a Sig 320 pop out of a holster in turbulence, hit the floor of the cockpit, and I am really happy that I didn’t eat a Gold Dot 125 grain .357 bullet.

EDC firearms are for low probability, high consequence events. Today, we are blessed with many good shooting pistols that are also drop safe. Based on my preference for appendix carry, and doing things that can subject me to G forces, I have chosen to not carry a pistol that depends on a firing pin block safety to address a statistically unlikely but still posssible release of a striker. Others may feel differently and that may well be a very reasonable decision for them. I do wish HK and Walther would modify their design, and that would change my assessment of their suitability for my use.

[GJM]

Well, whomever it is who has this issue *PLEASE* contact HK USA and keep us posted.

Thank you.

Strange that this requires mentioning...


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Doesn’t this depend upon whether the issue is defective parts/tolerance stacking vs a design issue. With the PPQ I am confident it is a design issue.

[TheNewbie]

For years, I assumed modern service pistols were drop safe. I really did not understand how the various designs, like partially pre tensioned vs fully tensioned strikers, supported sears, trigger tabs and pre travel related as regards to drop safety.

Enel’s thread on the VP9, the PPQ and discussions of after market Glock triggers with reduced pre travel really opened my eyes on this subject. A year or two before the LE guy in CT dropped his 320, and shot himself, I had a Sig 320 pop out of a holster in turbulence, hit the floor of the cockpit, and I am really happy that I didn’t eat a Gold Dot 125 grain .357 bullet.

EDC firearms are for low probability, high consequence events. Today, we are blessed with many good shooting pistols that are also drop safe. Based on my preference for appendix carry, and doing things that can subject me to G forces, I have chosen to not carry a pistol that depends on a firing pin block safety to address a statistically unlikely but still posssible release of a striker. Others may feel differently and that may well be a very reasonable decision for them. I do wish HK and Walther would modify their design, and that would change my assessment of their suitability for my use.

How bad was the turbulence and do you encounter it to that level often?

A year ago I saw an officer tackle a 6ft 4 in naked dude on asphalt. He hit so hard that he lost most of the gear on his belt. I now wonder if this could have resulted in a dead trigger if he had a PPQ or VP9.

[Mjolnir]

Doesn’t this depend upon whether the issue is defective parts/tolerance stacking vs a design issue. With the PPQ I am confident it is a design issue.

Until someone from HK USA pipes we are left to speculating. Mine doesn't behave in the manner described but if it did I would measure as much as I could, describe my issue and be waiting on an RSA as opposed to asking folks if they have experienced the same phenomena - which doesn't do JACK for the pistol that DOES have the perceived issue.

That, and I just want to know the root cause.


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[GJM]

How bad was the turbulence and do you encounter it to that level often?

A year ago I saw an officer tackle a 6ft 4 in naked dude on asphalt. He hit so hard that he lost most of the gear on his belt. I now wonder if this could have resulted in a dead trigger if he had a PPQ or VP9.

It was severe turbulence. I am always amazed how significant turbulence generally reads pretty low on a G meter. Just guessing, but 0 G on the negative side to about 2.5 G positive. However, in this case, the turbulence launched the pistol, but the impact was the 18 inches or so fall to the floor. It made a big enough thunk when it hit the floor, that I could hear it even with an ANR helmet on.

[Doc_Glock]

My hope in re opening the thread is that someone on this forum has an “in” at HK and can perhaps get their take on it.

The fact that it seem easily reproducible on some pistols but not other suggests a tolerance issue or perhaps a part change.

Funny, but when I did this test I noted a similar vulnerability on the Sig P320 but was unable to get the striker to drop. I would have said it was totally safe.

Subsequent events proved me wrong in that assessment, but the mechanism of the 320 firing was not getting the sear to drop due to inertia, but rather the trigger assembly itself being pulled by inertia.

[cornstalker]

Well, whomever it is who has this issue *PLEASE* contact HK USA and keep us posted.

Thank you.

Strange that this requires mentioning...


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I just determined yesterday that I can easily reproduce this condition with both of my VP9's. I will (reluctantly) call HK next week. I am expecting something along the lines of, "Well don't hit your gun with a hammer." Rightly so, I suppose.

I carry in the 4:00 position, IWB. I do wonder if I got knocked down and the butt of the gun hit the pavement if this condition could occur. I sure as hell didn't have to whack it very hard with a rubber mallet to get a dead trigger.

[cornstalker]

Just tried it again a moment ago with different results. My earllier comment "I sure as hell didn't have to whack it very hard with a rubber mallet to get a dead trigger", is misleading due to incomplete information.

My gun coded BE has 4046 rounds through it. Fails consistently on first whack, and not even a very hard one. This one has the "Ultra Match" sear/catch spring in it. (Not for long though)

My gun coded DE has 704 rounds through it and I could not re-create the condition with it again today. It failed on the second whack yesterday. This one is bone stock, and the one I carry.

Being as I can only reliably duplicate the issue with the altered gun, I guess I am not sure if I am going to call HK or not. The fact that the lighter sear/catch spring on the more worn gun is more susceptible to the issue in my case might be a clue though. I will have the stock sear spring put back in and try it again.

[cornstalker]

:confused:

Unbelievable. First whack on the DE gun after I typed the last post and I got a dead trigger.

I will make the call...

[GJM]

Can you describe exactly how you are getting this? I have a VP9SK and three or four VP9 full size I can test.

[cornstalker]

Can you describe exactly how you are getting this? I have a VP9SK and three or four VP9 full size I can test.

Exactly like Enel did in his video. I used a rubber mallet. I did try to squeeze like hell to keep the slide from moving to the rear when the butt was struck. Tough to tell how successful I was at that.
The weird thing is that when I got the DE gun to fail again I didn't hit it very hard. Must have got it just right. That was one failure in around twelve tries.

I am done wailing on my guns now... LOL.

[Doc_Glock]

Can you describe exactly how you are getting this? I have a VP9SK and three or four VP9 full size I can test.

Nylon hammer works better than rubber. It appears the sharpness of the hit is more important than the magnitude.

[NH Shooter]

Doesn’t this depend upon whether the issue is defective parts/tolerance stacking vs a design issue. With the PPQ I am confident it is a design issue.

Just tried this with a new PPQ (FCN6xxx SN) with about 300 rounds through it. Wacked it on the butt a few dozen times with a soft-faced mallet (nylon with thin rubber coating) at different angles and varying the intensity of the strikes. In fact I once hit it so hard I knocked it out of my hand and it landed on the floor.

Just like my previous drop testing of this pistol, I have yet to get the striker to release with an impact.

[cornstalker]

First of all, allow me to point out that I seldom miss an opportunity to make myself look stupid.

I said that my pistols were coded DE and BE, well.... both pistols have both a BE and a DE on them. Obviously, neither of my pistols were made in 1934 or 2034, so BE must be the accurate code for both pistols.

I called HK and talked to two different guys in the repair department. They said they had spoken with someone that conducted this test in the past. After it being brought to their attention they extensively tested some VP9's to see if they could induce the malfuction by drop testing it with a loaded magazine. They were not able to get the striker to drop. They also mentioned that the VP9 has been through several drop tests conducted by LE agencies and they are unaware of a single failure of any kind.

In short, if the only way to duplicate it is by hitting it with a mallet with no magazine in it, they are not concerned with trying to fix an issue that does not appear to have real-world application in their opinion.

I applaud the guys at HK for treating me with respect, even though it must have been an irritating phone call to field.

[NH Shooter]

Wacked it on the butt a few dozen times with a soft-faced mallet...

Forgot to add I did the same on the rear of the slide. As far as I'm concerned, my PPQ has passed the Internet's Beat Your Pistol with a Mallet Test with flying colors.

Kudos to the HK guys.

[GJM]

Forgot to add I did the same on the rear of the slide. As far as I'm concerned, my PPQ has passed the Internet's Beat Your Pistol with a Mallet Test with flying colors.

Kudos to the HK guys.

Bet you $5 PF dollars, if you sent me your slide, I could make it drop the striker, on video, with some vigorous reloads.

[JodyH]

Bet you $5 PF dollars, if you sent me your slide, I could make it drop the striker, on video, with some vigorous reloads.
Ease up on the porn watching.

22759

[NH Shooter]

Bet you $5 PF dollars, if you sent me your slide, I could make it drop the striker, on video, with some vigorous reloads.

Well, since you live far, far away with the polar bears, what if I send you the OEM plastic sights from my slide and see if your gun still malfunctions with them? :p

[Doc_Glock]

VP9s drop their striker when tapped on the bottom of the grip. That completely rules them out for me. Otherwise great guns.

I just wanted to post this video here to demonstrate how I think a VP9 could end up with a dead trigger. Cop goes down directly on to his back. May or may not have hit the bottom of the grip of his pistol, but this is exactly the scenario where I think the VP9 is less than ideal. You could end up with a dead trigger and not even know it.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CIPu1k9gxgH/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

<span>
https://youtu.be/aWxU0r2E2Kk

[Naphtali]

I called HK and talked to two different guys in the repair department. They said they had spoken with someone that conducted this test in the past. After it being brought to their attention they extensively tested some VP9's to see if they could induce the malfuction by drop testing it with a loaded magazine. They were not able to get the striker to drop. They also mentioned that the VP9 has been through several drop tests conducted by LE agencies and they are unaware of a single failure of any kind.

In short, if the only way to duplicate it is by hitting it with a mallet with no magazine in it, they are not concerned with trying to fix an issue that does not appear to have real-world application in their opinion.



Is this true - "the only way to duplicate it is... with no magazine in it" ? Have people who successfully created this problem posted results of attempts done with a loaded mag?

If the problem happens only when the VP9 is cleared, then this poses no danger to the user and is not a problem at all. Loading / chambering would reset the trigger and make the loaded weapon subsequently immune to the issue.

[JonInWA]

First of all, allow me to point out that I seldom miss an opportunity to make myself look stupid.

I said that my pistols were coded DE and BE, well.... both pistols have both a BE and a DE on them. Obviously, neither of my pistols were made in 1934 or 2034, so BE must be the accurate code for both pistols.

I called HK and talked to two different guys in the repair department. They said they had spoken with someone that conducted this test in the past. After it being brought to their attention they extensively tested some VP9's to see if they could induce the malfuction by drop testing it with a loaded magazine. They were not able to get the striker to drop. They also mentioned that the VP9 has been through several drop tests conducted by LE agencies and they are unaware of a single failure of any kind.

In short, if the only way to duplicate it is by hitting it with a mallet with no magazine in it, they are not concerned with trying to fix an issue that does not appear to have real-world application in their opinion.

I applaud the guys at HK for treating me with respect, even though it must have been an irritating phone call to field.

HK's Tech Support/Repair department is small, but extremely professional. I've consistantly had excellent discussions and advise/assistance from them.

I've qualified with, and feel comfortable carrying my VP40 for duty. In the relatively recent past (last year) HK has corrected an out-of-spec triggerbar (which necessitated my pulling the trigger to field strip) and gave me a courtesy opgrade regarding the bearing on the trigger return spring (probably unnecessary, but I prefer the ugraded part just on general principal if nothing else).

Best, Jon
https://i.imgur.com/cFYyrfVh.jpg

[consumer_ignorance]

I’m reviving this very old thread to see if anyone’s noticed/thought/heard anything about this in the intervening few years. The VP9 seems like a great platform besides this issue.

[jeep45238]

I can replicate it on my VP9-OR pretty easily.

[11B10]

I’m reviving this very old thread to see if anyone’s noticed/thought/heard anything about this in the intervening few years. The VP9 seems like a great platform besides this issue.



I missed this until today, and was also curious if there were any updates. Specifically, GJM, you stated you had a VP9SK and would test it. This has particular relevance to me because the VP9SK has been my EDC for the last 3+ years. Has mine ever been dropped and was there an ND or a dead trigger? It has been dropped and I've had neither a dead trigger or an ND.

[Kanye Wyoming]

I called HK and talked to two different guys in the repair department. They said they had spoken with someone that conducted this test in the past. After it being brought to their attention they extensively tested some VP9's to see if they could induce the malfuction by drop testing it with a loaded magazine. They were not able to get the striker to drop. They also mentioned that the VP9 has been through several drop tests conducted by LE agencies and they are unaware of a single failure of any kind.

In short, if the only way to duplicate it is by hitting it with a mallet with no magazine in it, they are not concerned with trying to fix an issue that does not appear to have real-world application in their opinion.

Is this true - "the only way to duplicate it is... with no magazine in it" ? Have people who successfully created this problem posted results of attempts done with a loaded mag?

If the problem happens only when the VP9 is cleared, then this poses no danger to the user and is not a problem at all. Loading / chambering would reset the trigger and make the loaded weapon subsequently immune to the issue.
I don’t see that this question was ever answered. Do we know if anyone has been able to make the striker drop if there is an empty mag inserted? How about loaded mag with a round (dummy round, or live round if the tester is a dummy) in the chamber?

[JonInWA]

I divested myself of my VP40, but the reasons had nothing to do with the trigger-it was simply redundant once I got my Gen5 G23 (which went along with my Gen4 G22/G31) and rarely shot in the past few years. HK Tech Support had upgraded my trigger return with the newer bearing piece, and corrected a disassembly issue with it. I trusted the gun, and it was exceptionally accurate and reliable, but became part of the trade for my FN 49...No regrets, but I considered it a good gun.

Best, Jon

[YVK]

I don’t see that this question was ever answered. Do we know if anyone has been able to make the striker drop if there is an empty mag inserted? How about loaded mag with a round (dummy round, or live round if the tester is a dummy) in the chamber?

In all years that I've been following this subject peripherally, I saw one report of a person experiencing this in live fire. A competitor from a Baltic country posted on HKPRO, describing a striker drop after a reload.

[YVK]

I can replicate it on my VP9-OR pretty easily.

Recent production, or an older gun?

[Archer1440]

I’ve been carrying and beating the living hell out of a number of VP series pistols for four years straight and have yet to have a single malfunction of any sort, including two Gunsite classes, a bunch of other classes and training sessions, biweekly trips to the range and over 120 USPSA and Steel matches in that time frame. There were several hard falls right onto the holstered gun, countless induced malfunction drills in classes, lots of SHO work, moon dust in every crevice and a wide variety of ammo (no reloads or steel case though).

What I haven’t ever had is have anyone sneak up behind me on a cold range to whack the thing with a deadblow hammer. So, I guess it’s just a matter of time. Not losing any sleep over it, though.

[jeep45238]

Recent production, or an older gun?

Purchased new in 2020.

[jh9]

What I haven’t ever had is have anyone sneak up behind me on a cold range to whack the thing with a deadblow hammer. So, I guess it’s just a matter of time. Not losing any sleep over it, though.

USPSA CM 25-01 coming soon to a range near you. Table start, loaded gun, muzzle downrange. RO uses one (1) regulation dead-blow hammer to whack the shooter's pistol. Whack is specified in 12.5.1 in newton-meters. Shooter must clear any hammer-induced malfunction before engaging targets.

[JonInWA]

Although I've divested myself of both, I trusted my VP40 a heck of a lot more than I trusted my P320-and my P320 was a post June 2019 production piece. Neither gun had any mechanical operational malfunctions during my ownership; both were obtained BNIB.

Best, Jon

[jeep45238]

USPSA CM 25-01 coming soon to a range near you. Table start, loaded gun, muzzle downrange. RO uses one (1) regulation dead-blow hammer to whack the shooter's pistol. Whack is specified in 12.5.1 in newton-meters. Shooter must clear any hammer-induced malfunction before engaging targets.

Have a welding helmet for those 320’s.