NFA Registry is seriously flawed

[TR675]

Of Arms and the Law (link below) has an interesting post about how much the NFA registry sucks after an audit turned up some bad info. Thought y'all might find the whole mess interesting.

The ATF inspectors' comments are damning:

"When I conduct an NFA inventory reconciliation, I start knowing that the NRA register will be incomplete or inaccurate."

"The discrepancies in the NFRTR makes it impossible to verify the onsite inventory."

"I encounter discrepancies on a daily basis."

"In one instance, I received an NFRTR inventory report with more than 60 errors on behalf of the NFA branch."

"A majority of the FFLs I have inspected, NFA is a small portion of their business. However, I spend the most time on the NFA portion due to the NFRTR being inaccurate most of the time."

"It creates embarrassment to the agency and the IOI because we are always wrong."

Original source: http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2017/06/nfa_database.php

Report: 17480

[Odin Bravo One]

Shocking revelations.

[Poconnor]

This is not news. I thought this was common knowledge.

[TR675]

It's not new info and is commonly known in the industry. IIRC several criminal prosecutions have been derailed because the defense attorney was sharp and knew the issue.

This report, though, is new to me and could be important Brady material if it hasn't been turned over in some NFA prosecutions - and I guarantee it hasn't.

[Tamara]

Rumor had it that back in the day it was on Rolodex-like cards, and that occasionally a departing employee would destroy a card or three in a fit of pique.

I hope this is just rumor.

[hufnagel]

sure would be a shame if someone spilled their covfefe all over that rolodex...

[CCT125US]

Is the registry paper, or does it get put on microfiche like 4473s?

[Tamara]

sure would be a shame if someone spilled their covfefe all over that rolodex...

They apparently discovered computers in the early Aughties, which is why for a brief, shining moment around '06-'07, turnaround times for Form 4's were sixty days or less.

[Odin Bravo One]

They can't even run a 4473 check to find an original owner............I've personally watched them take over a year to try to find one. When they did, they were wrong.

I mean, seriously, who honestly believes the government can keep track of shit like that?

[ReverendMeat]

Only people who have never worked for the government, I'd bet.

[CCT125US]

Still curious how the actual files are kept. Do they file back to front, front to back. I would think It would have to be by the owner, and therefore pretty simple... but then I have never worked for the government. I do however understand how paperwork can get misplaced, for example, our monthly CC statement should be filed back to front. If my wife does it, she informs me I have been doing it wrong. I would think .gov would have work instructions. Oh nevermind, I see where this is going. Because work instructions solve everything.

[MistWolf]

The reason the records at the ATF are antiquated is because we demand steps be taken to prevent any kind of registry of firearms and their owners. That means the ATF is prevented by law from updating their filing system without coming under scrutiny or entering the information into a computer

[TAZ]

Say it isn't so. Government beuricracy sucking in tax $$ but giving nothing useful back to the tax payer. I'm shocked I tell you.

[ReverendMeat]

The reason the records at the ATF are antiquated is because we demand steps be taken to prevent any kind of registry of firearms and their owners. That means the ATF is prevented by law from updating their filing system without coming under scrutiny or entering the information into a computer

We're talking about the NFA registry. Which is, uh, already a registry and thus cannot be prevented from becoming a registry. Are you saying that the ATF is prevented by law from using computers to update the registry they already are allowed by law to have?

[MistWolf]

I believe it affects the NFA registry as well. The idea is, gun guys don't want the .gov to have an easily searchable computer file. In California, they forced the registration of what they defined as "assault weapons" with the DOJ and tied it in with police computers. When an officer responded to a call, the officer would receive a notification if there was a registered "assault weapon" at the address or nearby

[BWT]

The reason the records at the ATF are antiquated is because we demand steps be taken to prevent any kind of registry of firearms and their owners. That means the ATF is prevented by law from updating their filing system without coming under scrutiny or entering the information into a computer

I respect you and your opinion, but I've never seen anyone express this concern regarding NFA items.

I don't know everything and I'll readily admit that but, I don't think this is the case.

If this were the case then how were E-Filing of Forms 1 made possible?

God Bless,

Brandon

[MistWolf]

I respect you and your opinion, but I've never seen anyone express this concern regarding NFA items.

I don't know everything and I'll readily admit that but, I don't think this is the case.

If this were the case then how were E-Filing of Forms 1 made possible?

God Bless,

Brandon

That's a good point about E-Filing. I don't know how they handle the records of e-filed forms.

The point I'm trying to make is, LEO agencies cannot simply look up a firearm on their computer and find out who it belongs to, whether it's regular firearms or NFA items. The agency has to contact the ATF and have the ATF search their records. In order to protect our privacy, laws have been put in place to limit what the ATF can do to upgrade their filing system. Gun rights groups watch them closely.

The only file LEO agencies can access is the list of stolen firearms. When a police officer runs the serial number of a firearm, the only information they can get is whether or not it's been stolen and if it's stolen, they can find out who it was stolen from, when it was stolen and so on. If the firearm is not stolen, they only information they get is that it's not on the stolen list.

In California, the DOJ does keep a list of handguns sold through FFLs. Later, they created a registry of what the state defined as "assault weapons". I believe now, all firearms sold or transferred through FFLs are on record. The state started going through that list to see if any of the owners of record have, since purchase, committed an act that would bar them from the possession of firearms and were planning to confiscate them. I don't know if they've started confiscation or not

[Odin Bravo One]

I like that they are all hosed up.

I'd be worried if they weren't. An effective/efficient government would scare the hell outta me.

[Eurodriver]

I have no issue with the NFA registry being a big covfefe. In fact, I prefer it...

[RevolverRob]

4473s only go to the ATF when a dealer goes out of business otherwise they are maintained by the dealer for 20 years and then they can be destroyed. ( 27 CFR 478.129(b))

ATF was only recently allowed to convert paper 4473s they have received from out-of-business dealers from paper to scanned editions, but they are not allowed to be of a searchable format (to avoid the potential for databasing). It remains to be seen what computerized 4473s will mean for the ATF, but my sense is they have to be printed and sent to the ATF in hard copy. The ATF literally has storage containers of boxes of 4473s that aren't filed or sorted in any way. Not alphabetized, not date coded, etc. The closest they have is knowing what dealer the forms came from (in most cases, not all).

It's fantastic. The standard (non-NFA) 4473s should not even be maintained by the federal government, at all, in my opinion. But under the current framework they have very little ability to do anything. Now - under the NFA it should be very well maintained, but it isn't, and this isn't a surprise, because we're talking about a registry that has existed since 1934 and has had very different rules at very different times. And paperwork wasn't maintained well in the beginning, it certainly isn't maintained well now.

Which begs the question...if the NFA Registry is a mess and cannot be reconciled and the cost of reconciliation is potentially making innocent people criminals...why do we have an NFA Registry?

[HCM]

That's a good point about E-Filing. I don't know how they handle the records of e-filed forms.

The point I'm trying to make is, LEO agencies cannot simply look up a firearm on their computer and find out who it belongs to, whether it's regular firearms or NFA items. The agency has to contact the ATF and have the ATF search their records. In order to protect our privacy, laws have been put in place to limit what the ATF can do to upgrade their filing system. Gun rights groups watch them closely.

The only file LEO agencies can access is the list of stolen firearms. When a police officer runs the serial number of a firearm, the only information they can get is whether or not it's been stolen and if it's stolen, they can find out who it was stolen from, when it was stolen and so on. If the firearm is not stolen, they only information they get is that it's not on the stolen list.

In California, the DOJ does keep a list of handguns sold through FFLs. Later, they created a registry of what the state defined as "assault weapons". I believe now, all firearms sold or transferred through FFLs are on record. The state started going through that list to see if any of the owners of record have, since purchase, committed an act that would bar them from the possession of firearms and were planning to confiscate them. I don't know if they've started confiscation or not



You are mixing state and federal laws and regulations. Every state has it's own laws and regulations

The federal database / searchable electronic doc restrictions you are talking about only apply to 4473's documenting sale of reagular firearms, they do not apply to the NFA registry.

Revolver Rob is spot on about why the NFA registry is a mess.

NCIC stolen firearms indices are a complely seperate issue. Most states also have their own CIJS (Criminal Justice Informations Systems) like CLETS in CA and TCIC in TX. The individual states decide what does, or does not go into it's CIJS systems.