44 May be Special. But Not for Defense!

[Tokarev]

Please see a recent article/review of some of the available 44 Special defensive ammo on the market.

I'm not surprised the lead offerings from Underwood and Federal didn't do well. But I'd have thought the Double Tap would have done much better. Also note the reported muzzle velocity for the SIG ammo. Yikes.



https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/6/20/the-case-for-the-44-special-cartridge/



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[Tamara]

Most light-for-caliber .44 Spl underpenetrates, especially if it expands.

17481

That said, if the .429" bullet penetrates 16"-18" reliably through 4LD and stops, I'm not gonna get all ate up over what its velocity is or whether it expands or not.

[Tokarev]

...if the .429" bullet penetrates 16"-18" reliably through 4LD and stops, I'm not gonna get all ate up over what its velocity is or whether it expands or not.

True enough.

So why pay a premium for defensive ammo that doesn't expand when one can probably get equal performance from less expensive target ammo that's probably just as effective?


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[Tamara]

True enough.

So why pay a premium for defensive ammo that doesn't expand when one can probably get equal performance from less expensive target ammo that's probably just as effective?

"Target" ammo for the .44 Spl tends to be 246gr LRN. Overpenetrates and lacks the sharp shoulder of the LSWC-HP from Federal or the sharp edged JHP cavity of the Sig load, both of which may help prevent skidding off bones and in greater chances of severing vessels along the wound track, or so the theory goes, even if they don't expand.

And for defense, I tend to stick with Federal or CCI/Speer. (Although I'm warming to Sig's stuff, having fired many cases with no problems so far.)

[Hambo]

The .44 Special defensive market has been slim pickings for decades. That said, a 200 or so grain bullet at 850fps is nothing to sneeze at.

[Tokarev]

From my personal experience I've found it easy to load 44 Special ammo that penetrates deeply and expands nicely.

The problem with these loads is that they're above anything found in most published manuals so there's no way of knowing pressure. And there's the whole thing about using home brewed ammo for defense.

It would seem, with all the various companies making 44 Special "defensive" ammo, that there is a market for the cartridge. Hornady, Federal, Speer, SIG, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Winchester, PMC, Underwood and probably a few others all make JHP ammo for this old girl. It would seem that all it would take is someone to push for a more modern loading to make it happen and get SAAMI to raise the pressure limit.

Underwood makes a couple different loads using the Speer Gold Dot and I've had some pretty good luck with the "Bulldog Only" load in my informal testing. When pushed to up around 950 fps the 200gr Gold Dot opens wonderfully and penetration is still good. The load is a bit stout but nothing that can't be handled unless you're shooting some scandium frame snubby or something. From talking to one of the guys at Underwood, he says the 44 Special Gold Dot loads are still within the current SAAMI spec even at these higher velocities. They're using specifically tailored powders to get where they want to be. While it might not be financially practical for Federal or Winchester to produce ammo like this it is nice to see there are higher performance options out there.

Anyway, the other option is to hound the reloading companies like Western and Hornady into testing and publishing some hotter Special loads. Something along the lines of the 45 Colt "Blackhawk only" data. There is no special SAAMI spec for 45 Colt +P that I'm aware of. I think these loads only exist because there was enough public interest.



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[Tennessee Jed]

If he was gonna test Underwood, I wish he would've chosen their 200 grain Gold Dot that travels around 1100 fps and appears to be the same ballistically as the Speer 200 grain Gold Dot 44 Magnum short barrel round. I've seen one gel test of the Speer 44 mag short barrel round that seemed pretty impressive, but I'd like to see if the Underwood 44 Special round had the same results.

Also, just once, I'd like to see a 44 Special article with a gel test of the Skeeter Load (250 grain semi-wadcutter travelling around 940 fps, I believe). I'm sure overpenetration is given, I'd just like to see HOW MUCH it overpenetrates.

[Tamara]

Also, just once, I'd like to see a 44 Special article with a gel test of the Skeeter Load (250 grain semi-wadcutter travelling around 940 fps, I believe). I'm sure overpenetration is given, I'd just like to see HOW MUCH it overpenetrates.

I've got some Buffalo Bore in the attic. I'll try and get you that, but I'm betting you'll find the bullet some six or eight inches into the catch block.

[Tokarev]

If he was gonna test Underwood, I wish he would've chosen their 200 grain Gold Dot that travels around 1100 fps and appears to be the same ballistically as the Speer 200 grain Gold Dot 44 Magnum short barrel round. I've seen one gel test of the Speer 44 mag short barrel round that seemed pretty impressive, but I'd like to see if the Underwood 44 Special round had the same results.

Also, just once, I'd like to see a 44 Special article with a gel test of the Skeeter Load (250 grain semi-wadcutter travelling around 940 fps, I believe). I'm sure overpenetration is given, I'd just like to see HOW MUCH it overpenetrates.
I have posted some pictures here of a 255gr cast round nose hollow point that I've loaded to Skeeter specs. The bullet, made by GT Bullets, expands and penetrates nicely. Penetration is in the 15-16in range with bullets expanding to almost 3/4 of an inch. Recoil is stiff but is workable. Certainly more pleasant than a 44 Mag.

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[LSP552]

Funny, but I've never worried about defense when i was carrying a New Frontier with stoutly loaded 240 gr. SWCs...:D

Wonder if I should start carrying a Glock in the woods?....weak humor I know.

[Tennessee Jed]

Awesome! I'll look up those pictures, thanks. I feel better already.

That whole, "here-are-some-feeble-bullets-at-feeble-velocities-performing-feebly," article was kind of depressing for a moment.

[Tennessee Jed]

I've got some Buffalo Bore in the attic. I'll try and get you that, but I'm betting you'll find the bullet some six or eight inches into the catch block.

I have no doubt you are correct.

[Hambo]

It would seem, with all the various companies making 44 Special "defensive" ammo, that there is a market for the cartridge. Hornady, Federal, Speer, SIG, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Winchester, PMC, Underwood and probably a few others all make JHP ammo for this old girl. It would seem that all it would take is someone to push for a more modern loading to make it happen and get SAAMI to raise the pressure limit.

When I said limited, I didn't mean that companies don't slap a "defense" label on the box. There isn't much incentive to work on bullet design as they do with 9mm because only 17 people in America will carry .44 Special revolvers for defense. The other problem is that the .44 Magnum uses the same diameter bullets and is infinitely more popular, hence companies don't really care what a .429 bullet does when slowed below magnum velocity.

Does any of that matter when you shoot man or beast with a 200gr JHP or a 240-250gr SWC? Not really.

[JAD]

The more I read people like doc Roberts, the less difference I expect in effect between handgun rounds. If they penetrate far enough, have a not streamlined profile, and are 0.3-0.5 in diameter, I just don't attach much credibility to the idea that they will reliably do anything different to a target.

[PNWTO]

The more I read people like doc Roberts, the less difference I expect in effect between handgun rounds. If they penetrate far enough, have a not streamlined profile, and are 0.3-0.5 in diameter, I just don't attach much credibility to the idea that they will reliably do anything different to a target.

Seriously, it isn't like humans rapidly evolved in the last century to be hardier and stouter. If anything, the reverse is true. A lot of people are in the ground due to .36 Navy Colts, after all.

[Tokarev]

Seriously, it isn't like humans rapidly evolved in the last century to be hardier and stouter. If anything, the reverse is true. A lot of people are in the ground due to .36 Navy Colts, after all.
How many of those people died from infection or other ailments caused from the wound rather that from blood loss?

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[Duces Tecum]

Deleted.

Tokarev said it better and sooner.

[DocGKR]

Review the dates folks were shot with the date they died--should get a rough idea of infection mortality vs. more rapidly lethal issues...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Seriously, it isn't like humans rapidly evolved in the last century to be hardier and stouter. If anything, the reverse is true. A lot of people are in the ground due to .36 Navy Colts, after all.
Well, not hardier, anyway.

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[RevolverRob]

I know that doing tests like this sells magazines and ad copy. But I mean...how many times do we have to confirm what we already know?

If Federal HSTs aren't available, Speer Gold Dots should be your bullet of choice....

Only exceptions to this are crazy things, like hunting bullets or bear shooting bullets. If you need handgun bullets for game under 300 pounds and/or people, Gold Dots or HSTs.

[Sigfan26]

https://underwoodammo.com/shop/44-special-200-grain-hard-cast-wadcutter/
But yeah... my .44 Specials get gold dots


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[Tokarev]

Awesome! I'll look up those pictures, thanks. I feel better already.

That whole, "here-are-some-feeble-bullets-at-feeble-velocities-performing-feebly," article was kind of depressing for a moment.
Here you go.

This bullet with one of the teflon-type coatings to reduce leading might be a wonderful defensive bullet. I wonder if Underwood could be talked into making such a load....

This is the 255 RN LHP from GT with a Keith-style dollop of 2400. I chrono'ed five of these and the average muzzle velocity is 1,082 fps. Low was 1063 and high was 1091. These are from a 3in barrel.

The bullet in bare gel expanded probably about as far as it'll go without breaking apart. Penetration was about 12in. Through clothing the bullet still had impressive expansion and 16in of penetration.

My previous experimentation with Unique yields 950fps velocity and about 14in in gel. That's probably the load to use since recoil isn't as stiff yet penetration is still darned good.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/32614e19ddeb26095e2151d23e255e65.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/4dabe0d8a44f9803ec4ad9b39abecaf3.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/89d11e122eda1bd8ef99446e5c4fc8bc.jpg




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[Hambo]

Here you go.

This bullet with one of the teflon-type coatings to reduce leading



I think you mean powder coating. Teflon coated bullets were the hysteria du jour thirty years ago.

[Tokarev]

I think you mean powder coating. Teflon coated bullets were the hysteria du jour thirty years ago.
Oops. Yes you're correct.

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[Tamara]

The more I read people like doc Roberts, the less difference I expect in effect between handgun rounds. If they penetrate far enough, have a not streamlined profile, and are 0.3-0.5 in diameter, I just don't attach much credibility to the idea that they will reliably do anything different to a target.

From everything I've been able to glean on the subject, it seems to go something like this: There are two roughly fist sized spots on the human body, connected by a 1" wide bony strip, where a pistol bullet will have good effect. If you put a pistol bullet through those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind of pistol bullet it is. If you put a pistol bullet someplace other than those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind it is, either.

Expansion seems to be a sign that the bullet is going to be found in dude's clothes on the far side, or maybe on the asphalt a few feet past him. Ball and unexpanded JHPs are the bullets that go on to hit the schoolbuses full of orphaned nuns on their way to a trial lawyer's convention.

[Wayne Dobbs]

From everything I've been able to glean on the subject, it seems to go something like this: There are two roughly fist sized spots on the human body, connected by a 1" wide bony strip, where a pistol bullet will have good effect. If you put a pistol bullet through those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind of pistol bullet it is. If you put a pistol bullet someplace other than those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind it is, either.

Expansion seems to be a sign that the bullet is going to be found in dude's clothes on the far side, or maybe on the asphalt a few feet past him. Ball and unexpanded JHPs are the bullets that go on to hit the schoolbuses full of orphaned nuns on their way to a trial lawyer's convention.

You're making too much sense, Tamara. That's not allowed on gun "fora", plus you completely overlooked split times in street shootings. You know how important that is!

[Tennessee Jed]

Here you go.

This bullet with one of the teflon-type coatings to reduce leading might be a wonderful defensive bullet. I wonder if Underwood could be talked into making such a load....

This is the 255 RN LHP from GT with a Keith-style dollop of 2400. I chrono'ed five of these and the average muzzle velocity is 1,082 fps. Low was 1063 and high was 1091. These are from a 3in barrel.

The bullet in bare gel expanded probably about as far as it'll go without breaking apart. Penetration was about 12in. Through clothing the bullet still had impressive expansion and 16in of penetration.

My previous experimentation with Unique yields 950fps velocity and about 14in in gel. That's probably the load to use since recoil isn't as stiff yet penetration is still darned good.



That is pretty slick. Thanks for sharing it. I've not considered GT bullets before, but will look into them now.

I have to agree with the general consensus. The ammo factories aren't going to put much effort into the 44 Special, or any other caliber that isn't 9mm, 40 or 45 acp. There aren't enough buyers out there, and of those who are buyers, even fewer are going to put much thought into ammo selection.

However, because I agree with Tam's logic above, that lack of development isn't that big of a deal to me. Being a fan of non-typical calibers means that one has to be ready to do some searching and experimentation. And I am A-OK with that.

[Jeep]

It seems to me that a hard-cast wadcutter at quite moderate velocity would make a very effective round. .43 inch hole; will penetrate nicely but not go too near the bus of nuns going to the trial lawyers convention, and have more-that-manageable recoil.

I doubt that there is a lot to be said for lots of velocity in a .44 Special, and with a hard cast wadcutter you won't need it.

[Sigfan26]

It seems to me that a hard-cast wadcutter at quite moderate velocity would make a very effective round. .43 inch hole; will penetrate nicely but not go too near the bus of nuns going to the trial lawyers convention, and have more-that-manageable recoil.

I doubt that there is a lot to be said for lots of velocity in a .44 Special, and with a hard cast wadcutter you won't need it.

I always thought this would be pretty awesome
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=288&zenid=jglgqj4399mlbg8bm7vkl5hir7

[Jeep]

Those seem pretty light and short--I'd be concerned a bit about penetration. I was thinking something more along the lines of a 220-240 grain wad cutter.

[Tennessee Jed]

Oh yeah, I am a big fan of big wadcutters. They can be pretty accurate, too. This is the RimRock 200 grain DEWC with a moderate amount of 800X powder, running at about 1050 fps.

17494

And, just because I like showing it off, this is the 629 that shot that group:

17495

[Hambo]

Those seem pretty light and short--I'd be concerned a bit about penetration. I was thinking something more along the lines of a 220-240 grain wad cutter.

Same company has a 215gr WC, or you could go with a lead HP they say works well in .44 Special. http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=263

[Tokarev]

The bullet used in the Buffalo Bore wadcutter load is made by Rimrock Bullets. Or was at one time. Maybe BB buys bullets from several vendors.

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/-44-200-gr-dewc-fb-per-500-anti-personel-.html

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[RevolverRob]

It seems to me that a hard-cast wadcutter at quite moderate velocity would make a very effective round. .43 inch hole; will penetrate nicely but not go too near the bus of nuns going to the trial lawyers convention, and have more-that-manageable recoil.

I doubt that there is a lot to be said for lots of velocity in a .44 Special, and with a hard cast wadcutter you won't need it.

This is very true...and a Speer Gold Dot will do the same thing, plus tend to reliably expand.

Just sayin'.

Don't get me wrong a hard-cast SWC as a game bullet will do the trick, but as a defensive load - Gold Dot.

[Jeep]

I like Gold Dot's. That is what I carry in a 9mm. But I'm thinking velocities in the 800 fps range. Would a .44 Gold Dot (which I'd guess would be designed with the .44 magnum in mind, still expand at those velocities?

I don't know, but one of the great things about a true wadcutter in .43 (not a SWC) is that you don't need to rely on expansion. You are already going to punch a close to caliber size hole. In addition, you will get a surprising amount of penetration even at a relatively low velocity.

If a Gold Dot will reliably expand at those velocities, I agree--go with the Gold Dot. If not, then I'd be in favor of punching caliber-sized holes.

Of course, I carry wadcutters in a J-frame so maybe I just drank the Kool-Aid back in the days when wadcutters were more highly thought of.

[RevolverRob]

I like Gold Dot's. That is what I carry in a 9mm. But I'm thinking velocities in the 800 fps range. Would a .44 Gold Dot (which I'd guess would be designed with the .44 magnum in mind, still expand at those velocities?

I don't know, but one of the great things about a true wadcutter in .43 (not a SWC) is that you don't need to rely on expansion. You are already going to punch a close to caliber size hole. In addition, you will get a surprising amount of penetration even at a relatively low velocity.

If a Gold Dot will reliably expand at those velocities, I agree--go with the Gold Dot. If not, then I'd be in favor of punching caliber-sized holes.

Of course, I carry wadcutters in a J-frame so maybe I just drank the Kool-Aid back in the days when wadcutters were more highly thought of.

Well, the article in the OP - fired 200-grain GDs from one of the new 3" barreled .44 spl GP100s. Velocity was a sedate 747 fps. Penetration was 12.25" (a little more would be great). Expanded diameter was reported at 0.691". With a clothing barrier, penetration was 14" and expanded diameter was reported at 0.592"

LSWCHPs actually showed very little expansion (0.441" expanded diameter) at the lower velocities.

[Lester Polfus]

Speer makes two different .429 Gold Dots. One for the .44 Special and one for .44 Magnum. Cataloged at this link. (http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/default.aspx?caliber=28&usage=0&brand=0&firearm=2)

I think it's the only premium bullet out there specifically made for the .44 Special but I could certainly be wrong.

The velocity window isn't listed on the site that I could find. It may be in the Speer reloading manual, or I bet they'd tell you if you called or emailed.

[Tokarev]

Speer makes two different .429 Gold Dots. One for the .44 Special and one for .44 Magnum. Cataloged at this link. (http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/default.aspx?caliber=28&usage=0&brand=0&firearm=2)

I think it's the only premium bullet out there specifically made for the .44 Special but I could certainly be wrong.

The velocity window isn't listed on the site that I could find. It may be in the Speer reloading manual, or I bet they'd tell you if you called or emailed.

I have had some loss of accuracy with the 200gr Gold Dot when velocity exceeds about 1,000 fps. I believe the bullet is too soft to work at these speeds as it is designed to work at lower published velocities. Max effective speed, in my experience, is with the Underwood "Bulldog Only" load. This load isn't as hot as their other Gold Dot load but it shoots way better and opens nicely in gel.

Barnes also makes a bullet that's made for the Special. It is supposed to expand at 800 fps. I've pushed one of these and they do open wonderfully with more velocity. But I really haven't worked up a load because these bullets are just too expensive to waste, so to speak.

I have tried the Speer 210gr Gold Dot but it won't open at standard Special velocities since it is designed specifically for the Magnum. I have pushed this bullet up above 1,000fps and it shoots well up in this area but it still won't open reliably. I haven't tried pushing it to 1,200fps but it might work well at that velocity.


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[Tamara]

LSWCHPs actually showed very little expansion (0.441" expanded diameter) at the lower velocities.

As long as it goes 14"-16" and stops, does that really matter a whole lot?

[Tokarev]

As long as it goes 14"-16" and stops, does that really matter a whole lot?
Maybe. Maybe not.

But given the choice between a bullet that's known to expand predictably and reliably and one that isn't I'll chose the former.

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[Tokarev]

Well, the article in the OP - fired 200-grain GDs from one of the new 3" barreled .44 spl GP100s. Velocity was a sedate 747 fps. Penetration was 12.25" (a little more would be great). Expanded diameter was reported at 0.691". With a clothing barrier, penetration was 14" and expanded diameter was reported at 0.592"

LSWCHPs actually showed very little expansion (0.441" expanded diameter) at the lower velocities.
Lead appears to be a fairly unpredictable bullet material with regard to hollow points. Or at least fairly difficult to get a proper alloy.

Make the bullet a little too hard and it won't expand or will crumble and break apart. Make the bullet a little too soft and it'll expand too quickly with shallow penetration or mushroom so much it peels apart.

As posted, my personal 255gr cast reload does very well in gel. It opens nicely and penetrates well when loaded with Unique or 2400. But I tried a LSWC bullet from another source that doesn't do so well. At standard 44 Special speeds of 750-800 fps the bullet will icepick the gel block. Bumping velocity up makes the bullet shatter and fragment within the first 8-10 inches.

I also wonder about cast bullet effectiveness against barriers other than clothing. Will a cast bullet defeat auto glass or automotive sheet metal? I guess I need to visit the local junk yard and see if I can buy a few old doors and windshields.



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[eb07]

If anyone is interested, here is what I recorded. My 200 grain handloads are moving.

Charter Bulldog 2.5″ Barrel
Shooting Chrony 10 feet from muzzle
Altitude: 980 feet above sea level
Temps are noted as it gets hot here and my readings are higher because of it

200gr Speer Gold Dot 44 Special
8.6gr Power Pistol/Win primer/1.490″
105 Degrees
Avg – 1015 FPS – 457ft lbs energy
95 Degrees
Avg – 993.3 FPS – 438ft lbs energy
86 Degrees
Avg – 950.8 FPS – 402ft lbs energy

200gr Winchester Silver Tip 44 Special Factory Load
95 degrees
Avg – 792 FPS – 279 ft lbs energy
86 degrees
Avg – 770.8 FPS – 264 ft lbs energy

240gr Speer JHP 44 Special
7.8gr Power Pistol/Win primer/1.465″
105 degrees
Avg – 939.6 FPS – 470ft lbs energy
86 Degrees
Avg – 916.5 FPS – 448ft lbs energy


240gr Speer JHP 44 Special
8.0gr Power Pistol/Win primer/1.465″
86 degrees
Avg 927.8 FPS – 459ft lbs energy

180gr Hornaday XTP 44 Special
9.1gr Power Pistol/Win primer/1.480″
105 degrees
Avg – 1089 FPS – 474ft lbs energy

225gr Speer JHP 44 Special
7.7gr Power Pistol/Win primer/1.500″
105 degrees
Avg – 934.4 FPS – 436ft lbs energy

[Tokarev]

So is there no consumer interest in an industry standard +P rating?

While it is true that handloaders have been loading to higher velocities since Elmer Keith got his first piece of Special brass these loads have never been supported by firearms manufacturers.

The 38 Special exists in both standard and +P loading. This gives the consumer the choice of low recoil practice ammo and high pressure defense ammo. Pretty much everyone making 38 Special makes a +P load and a standard pressure load not to mention 357 Magnum. All these cartridges seem to serve equally in their own markets and I don't see why the same options shouldn't exist for the 44.

Would those who own 5-shot Bulldogs and Rugers and Smiths not be interested in factory loads that produce higher velocities from short barrels? The original loads would still exist for target practice while the +P loads would give better terminal performance from stubby barrels. And the 44 Magnum would still exist for hunting, hiking, etc.

It would be nice to also have +P load data that's available from bullet and powder manufacturers. I'd guess most handloaders would welcome modern data with modern powders and some newer bullets that gives better performance from 3" GP100 and M69 revolvers.

I'm not envisioning a pressure spec that is anywhere close to the 44 Magnum but rather a limit that's maybe 15% above the current 15,500 psi limit.

Hot 45 Colt reloading data exists as does 45-70. Heck even the little 32 has some hotter ammo available. So why not?

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[Tamara]

The 38 Special exists in both standard and +P loading. This gives the consumer the choice of low recoil practice ammo and high pressure defense ammo. Pretty much everyone making 38 Special makes a +P load and a standard pressure load not to mention 357 Magnum. All these cartridges seem to serve equally in their own markets and I don't see why the same options shouldn't exist for the 44.

Most of the ballistically woke people I know use standard-pressure wadcutters in their short-barreled .38 Spls.

[BJXDS]

Wasn't the 44 spcl Inspctor Harold Francis load of choice?

[Tokarev]

Do you feel lucky?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170624/d70bc1c39ee31e45d49b3aa6818437bf.jpg

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[Jeep]

Most of the ballistically woke people I know use standard--pressure wadcutters in their short-barreled .38 Spls. .

Personally, I try to avoid being "woke" about anything, (most "woke" people I've met have the strangest notions about a lot of things) but I've never seen any reason to increase recoil when penetration is already more than adequate. Accepting a bit more recoil to get a hollow point to open is one thing. More recoil so the bullet can go downrange and take out the nuns, their bus and the trial lawyers seems to me a bit questionable.

[Duces Tecum]

Well, except maybe for the trial lawyers. ;)

[Tokarev]

Skeeter's load of 7.5gr of Unique with a 255gr cast is probably somewhere around 22,000 psi. Not too much higher, pressure-wise, than 45 ACP and probably has "hot" as anyone needs without getting a Magnum.

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[Malamute]

Skeeter's load of 7.5gr of Unique with a 255gr cast is probably somewhere around 22,000 psi. Not too much higher, pressure-wise, than 45 ACP and probably has "hot" as anyone needs without getting a Magnum.

Your post made me curious, I was thinking that pressure level was a bit high for that load, I recall the old NRA reloading manual showed the 17 gr 2400/429421 Lyman bullet at around 25,000 CUP (which was often listed as PSI but was done with copper crushers for the most part). I found a fair bit of info, reading mainly on the castboolit forum.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=44+spl+250+gr+7.5+grs+unique+chamber +pressure&spf=1498447968071

One interesting bit that was mentioned, the 7.5 gr Unique/429421 load showed more pressure than 9 grs Unique/429421 in a magnum case.

[Tokarev]

A bit of info on CUP vs PSI:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_cuppsireloaddata_200905/

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[Tokarev]

Here is a good list of "hot" 44 Special ammo. Note that the Category Two loads are listed at 22,000 psi max and include the 7.5gr of Unique. It actually lists 8.5gr max with this bullet.

I don't know how these pressures were tested. I assume Mr. Pearce used Quickload to assist with the data.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%2520Pearce%2520on%2520the%252044%2520Special .pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiI7KPUk9vUAhUJNT4KHT3SBxsQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNGiljEuTZ-hr_WDRLDO-zO9EPALuA

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[richiecotite]

I have tried the Speer 210gr Gold Dot but it won't open at standard Special velocities since it is designed specifically for the Magnum. I have pushed this bullet up above 1,000fps and it shoots well up in this area but it still won't open reliably. I haven't tried pushing it to 1,200fps but it might work well at that velocity.


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I emailed Speer asking about velocity window for best expansion for the 210 gr .410 deep curl hollow point (same Bullet that was loaded in their gold Dot line that was discontinued a few years ago). Rep told me about 1250-1350 fps.

I know it's not the same Bullet and caliber, but I'd imagine their damn near kissing cousins as far as velocity and expansion go.


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[Tokarev]

I emailed Speer asking about velocity window for best expansion for the 210 gr .410 deep curl hollow point (same Bullet that was loaded in their gold Dot line that was discontinued a few years ago). Rep told me about 1250-1350 fps.

I know it's not the same Bullet and caliber, but I'd imagine their damn near kissing cousins as far as velocity and expansion go.


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That's probably about right. I'm just not comfortable pushing the 210gr much faster without something like Quickload to at least use as a guide.

The bullet shoots great and would probably be an outstanding Special bullet if it can safely be driven to the 1200+ fps needed for expansion.

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[QED]

From everything I've been able to glean on the subject, it seems to go something like this: There are two roughly fist sized spots on the human body, connected by a 1" wide bony strip, where a pistol bullet will have good effect. If you put a pistol bullet through those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind of pistol bullet it is. If you put a pistol bullet someplace other than those spots, it doesn't seem to matter much what kind it is, either.

Expansion seems to be a sign that the bullet is going to be found in dude's clothes on the far side, or maybe on the asphalt a few feet past him. Ball and unexpanded JHPs are the bullets that go on to hit the schoolbuses full of orphaned nuns on their way to a trial lawyer's convention.

That's an oversimplification. Assuming adequate penetration, a larger handgun bullet (in addition to a real possibility of disrupting something vital that a somewhat smaller bullet just misses) would disrupt more tissue and, although not quantifiable, thus would increase the probability of incapacitation. Undoubtedly, very few people would continue to fight, despite whatever injuries, as long as they are not physiologically incapacitated (paralysis, coma, death). On the other hand, it certainly seems that a 9mm eye shot would be a more effective "threat stopper" than a body shot with a .44 Magnum.

[Tokarev]

Most good 9mm will penetrate to equal depths and expand to equal diameters. Does that mean the current crop of 9mm defensive bullets will be as effective as the run of the mill 44 Special stuff? I'd think so.

There's just no reason that 44 Special can't be "as good as" 45 Auto. Or at least 40 S&W since they share a very similar diameter. Bullet design and outdated pressure/velocity specs have really crippled a great old cartridge.

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[QED]

Indeed. A light-for-caliber 200 grain .44 JHP @ 850 fps will penetrate more than any 9mm JHP (fired from full-size 9mm pistols) for same expanded diameter. SOS caused a lot of mayhem in '70s with a 246 gr. LRN @ ~650 fps.

[Malamute]

That's an oversimplification. Assuming adequate penetration, a larger handgun bullet (in addition to a real possibility of disrupting something vital that a somewhat smaller bullet just misses) would disrupt more tissue and, although not quantifiable, thus would increase the probability of incapacitation. Undoubtedly, very few people would continue to fight, despite whatever injuries, as long as they are not physiologically incapacitated (paralysis, coma, death). On the other hand, it certainly seems that a 9mm eye shot would be a more effective "threat stopper" than a body shot with a .44 Magnum.

Ill first say I'm a large caliber fan from way back, including 44 spl and mag,...however,.....the math shows .430" - .355" = .075" difference in diameter. Half of that, is .0375" (bullet only sticks out half the difference in diameter on each side) Thats how much wider the swath of death and destruction is based n basic diameter. Slightly less than 4/100ths of an inch. In my mind the difference was MUCH greater.


Most good 9mm will penetrate to equal depths and expand to equal diameters. Does that mean the current crop of 9mm defensive bullets will be as effective as the run of the mill 44 Special stuff? I'd think so.

There's just no reason that 44 Special can't be "as good as" 45 Auto. Or at least 40 S&W since they share a very similar diameter. Bullet design and outdated pressure/velocity specs have really crippled a great old cartridge.

Agree, the old RN lead bullet leads were pretty puny in actual effect on game that Ive shot with them, similar to RN 45 Colts and 45 auto loads. Jack rabbits often get up and run away after being body shot with them. Ive had it happen many times. SWC loads, I dont recall ever having jacks run off. one I body shot with a factory Winchester Lubaloy 357 lead load basically exploded. Thats a plain swc load at full 357 old school veloicy as far as i know, in a 6" revolver. Bullet shape makes a bit difference.


Indeed. A light-for-caliber 200 grain .44 JHP @ 850 fps will penetrate more than any 9mm JHP (fired from full-size 9mm pistols) for same expanded diameter. SOS caused a lot of mayhem in '70s with a 246 gr. LRN @ ~650 fps.

Certainly any bullet is capable of mayhem if directed well. See above comment. If the 44 spl RN bullets caused mayhem, I'm laying money on the shooter doing a good job, not so much the awesomeness of the RN bullets, despite being awesomely 44 caliber and all. I think theres some difference, but not as much as I used to, unless the targets are larger and top loads are used in the larger calibers. I do prefer the larger calibers when it comes to large animals, as the higher powered loads will make a difference in that event i believe, such as 17 grs 2400/250 gr Lyman 429421 bullet in 44 spl.

[QED]

Ill first say I'm a large caliber fan from way back, including 44 spl and mag,...however,.....the math shows .430" - .355" = .075" difference in diameter. Half of that, is .0375" (bullet only sticks out half the difference in diameter on each side) Thats how much wider the swath of death and destruction is based n basic diameter. Slightly less than 4/100ths of an inch. In my mind the difference was MUCH greater.

The amount of tissue disruption is proportional not to caliber but to effective bullet area; in case you referenced 47% more tissue would be disrupted, assuming same penetration.








Certainly any bullet is capable of mayhem if directed well. See above comment. If the 44 spl RN bullets caused mayhem, I'm laying money on the shooter doing a good job, not so much the awesomeness of the RN bullets, despite being awesomely 44 caliber and all. I think theres some difference, but not as much as I used to, unless the targets are larger and top loads are used in the larger calibers. I do prefer the larger calibers when it comes to large animals, as the higher powered loads will make a difference in that event i believe, such as 17 grs 2400/250 gr Lyman 429421 bullet in 44 spl.

The point was that even with a lousy choice of ammunition moving at ordinary BB speed, .44 special is capable of fairly quick incapacitation, not to mention lethality.

[5pins]

The amount of tissue disruption is proportional not to caliber but to effective bullet area; in case you referenced 47% more tissue would be disrupted, assuming same penetration.






The point was that even with a lousy choice of ammunition moving at ordinary BB speed, .44 special is capable of fairly quick incapacitation, not to mention lethality.


Are you saying that the .44 Spl. is almost 50% more effective then the .40 S&W? An expanded .40 is going to have more "effective bullet area" then a non-expanded .44.

[Tokarev]

Let's not forget penetration. Our large or small diameter bullet must be able to reach vital organs and major blood vessels.

Our small 9mm that penetrates through to the heart will outperform our 44SPL with a soft lead bullet that breaks apart after hitting ribs or other bones.

Tissue disruption won't really matter unless the tissue being disrupted is directly related to the CNS. At least not for rapid incapacitation. Dying a week after from infection or renal failure doesn't count.

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[QED]

Let's not forget penetration. Our large or small diameter bullet must be able to reach vital organs and major blood vessels.

Our small 9mm that penetrates through to the heart will outperform our 44SPL with a soft lead bullet that breaks apart after hitting ribs or other bones.

Tissue disruption won't really matter unless the tissue being disrupted is directly related to the CNS. At least not for rapid incapacitation. Dying a week after from infection or renal failure doesn't count.

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No one is making a point that bullet construction and penetration do not matter; vital organ/s disruption is, of course, the most effective method of incapacitating anyone. If you can destroy the CNS of your attacker, don't bother with anything else, of course. Tissue (even non-vital) disruption really matters, for most people anyway, because it's traumatic -- even when a very small percentage of body tissue is disrupted. Slapping most people on each side of their face will not stop most people from attacking you; break both of their zygomatic arches and most people will cease their aggressive actions against you; neither case is physiologically incapacitating but the latter is obviously more traumatic, leading, most likely, to different resultant behavior.

[QED]

Are you saying that the .44 Spl. is almost 50% more effective then the .40 S&W? An expanded .40 is going to have more "effective bullet area" then a non-expanded .44.

No, almost 50% more disruption does not imply almost 50% more "effective." As previously implied, there are too many variables to quantify the probability of incapacitation as a function of small to moderate amount of non-vital tissue disruption. Yes, .40 cal (and .45 ACP) certainly seems more effective for self-defense than .44 special (all within SAAMI).

[Velo Dog]

If the 44 spl RN bullets caused mayhem, I'm laying money on the shooter doing a good job, not so much the awesomeness of the RN bullets, despite being awesomely 44 caliber and all.


The more I read people like doc Roberts, the less difference I expect in effect between handgun rounds. If they penetrate far enough, have a not streamlined profile, and are 0.3-0.5 in diameter, I just don't attach much credibility to the idea that they will reliably do anything different to a target.

It's been a while since I've read Duncan Macpherson's book Bullet Penetration, but I seem to remember that he thought the biggest advantage of the larger pistol calibers may simply be the ability to use heavier bullets; the greater mass aiding penetration.

I also think he explained why theories on incapacitation tend to assume less than ideal bullet placement. A direct hit of the heart or upper spine will be devastating regardless of caliber.

[QED]

It's been a while since I've read Duncan Macpherson's book Bullet Penetration, but I seem to remember that he thought the biggest advantage of the larger pistol calibers may simply be the ability to use heavier bullets; the greater mass aiding penetration.



"The advantage of a larger caliber is almost entirely related to the practicality of using a heavier bullet."

[entropy]

Late to the show on this, but in regards to factory available options for a 3" Ruger GP, what would be the recommended? The Speer GD or a nice heavy wadcutter??

[Tokarev]

Late to the show on this, but in regards to factory available options for a 3" Ruger GP, what would be the recommended? The Speer GD or a nice heavy wadcutter??For me the choice would likely depend on my AOR. If I was hiking in back country I'd probably opt for a heavy lead wadcutter from Buffalo Bore. Or handload an equivalent. If I was carrying the gun in an urban setting and/or CCW role I'd opt for the Speer Gold Dot.


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[entropy]

I have a nice 240gr LSWC load for the woods (7.5 Unique) that shoots REALLY well out of it. (Like yours, it likes the .431s.) I will pick up a box of the 200gr GoldDot Blazers and keep my fingers crossed that they shoot decent. Thanks.

[xcop]

Buffalo Bore also makes a nice 200gr hard cast wadcutter listed at 1000fps.

[Tokarev]

Here's a fairly interesting piece on penetration:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/stop-worrying-about-overpenetration

[entropy]

Picked up some Sig 200gr V-Crown locally. Will run it thru its paces today or tomorrow and report back.

[dolphin62]

nice shooting...whats the make of the gun. I don't want to get hit with a .44 special

[entropy]

Oops. Forgot to update this.

Ran some of the Sig 200gr V-Crown thru my GP100. Offhand, D/A group was about 2" at 10yds and well centered. Certainly not scientific, but put a few thru 1gal watr jugs to confirm expansion. (I was concerned from the short 3" barrel.). Recover d slugs measured about .650" with even expansion and near 100% weight retention. They passed through 3 jugs and ended up in the 4th. Like stated, unscientific but on par with both 9mm and .40 HST rounds that I tested. Recoil not bad. Certailnly less than the 240gr LSWC/7.5gr Unique I use for my field load.

They're in the speedloaders now.

[finnmike]

I will try those. Might be a choice other than wimpy Hornaday ft 165s at 938 fps out of my 3" Bridgeport Bulldog. I also would not dispute any reasonable load from a .44 Special.

[Tokarev]

Oops. Forgot to update this.

Ran some of the Sig 200gr V-Crown thru my GP100. Offhand, D/A group was about 2" at 10yds and well centered. Certainly not scientific, but put a few thru 1gal watr jugs to confirm expansion. (I was concerned from the short 3" barrel.). Recover d slugs measured about .650" with even expansion and near 100% weight retention. They passed through 3 jugs and ended up in the 4th. Like stated, unscientific but on par with both 9mm and .40 HST rounds that I tested. Recoil not bad. Certailnly less than the 240gr LSWC/7.5gr Unique I use for my field load.

They're in the speedloaders now.Any chrono data on the SIG?

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[Tokarev]

Might be a choice other than wimpy Hornaday ft 165s at 938 fps out of my 3" Bridgeport Bulldog.

Have you tried Underwood's 200gr Bulldog load? It might be the right choice for your little revolver.


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[entropy]

Any chrono data on the SIG?

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Unfortunately no. I forgot to pack the chrono when I took them to shoot. Next time.

I appreciate your long thread on this gun from months back. I went back through that several times in this process. Thanks.

[Tokarev]

Unfortunately no. I forgot to pack the chrono when I took them to shoot. Next time.

I appreciate your long thread on this gun from months back. I went back through that several times in this process. Thanks.If your velocities reflect those listed in the American Rifleman article I think I'd be hard pressed to choose the SIG ammo for a short barrel. 650ish fps is just too slow regardless of what Clear gel or water jugs might show. I have serious doubts about penetration through bone or similar with such low velocities.

I just went back and looked at Ed Head's review of the GP100 from back in December. He reported 689fps with the SIG load.

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[Pentz]

A run of five Blazer Gold Dots averaged 868 fps (high 872/low 860) from my 3" Bridgeport. However, as others have observed, the aluminum cases do not extract easily and are unsuitable for a reasonably quick reload. Other than that a pretty decent loading.

[Tokarev]

My guess is the sales of the new Ruger GP100 will taper off and then completely dry up once the initial batches are sold. There are only so many people interested in a revolver of this type.

I wonder what a modern revolver with modern ammo would do? Would consumers want a larger frame Ruger LCR in 44 Special (or 38/357 for that matter) paired with modern ammo? Something that's tailored to provide good velocity from 3in barrels?

Maybe it hasn't been done before because there's just no public interest?

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[5pins]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger comes out with a .44 mag GP100 next year.

[Tokarev]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger comes out with a .44 mag GP100 next year.If they can make it work, that would be awesome. Is there enough meat in the cylinder to handle 44 magnum pressure?

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[Lester Polfus]

I found it interesting that Smith put out the L-Frame 69 as a 5 shot .44 Magnum, but Ruger limited the GP-100 to a 5 shot .44 Special.

[hardbitten]

found this thread useful enough to join. did a lot of research before my first handgun and settled on a 44 Special revolver for its low pressure, low noise, simplicity, reliability, ease of cleaning and maintenance, plus big bore looks and big bore performance with proper loads. leaning towards the GP100 3" but the 5" half-lug blued is a beauty.

Regarding the Underwood 44 Special 200 Grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point

George Wade left a review at Underwood noting 1041 fps from a 3" GP100.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/44-special-200-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=7865917014073

Loads of Bacon gel tested same bullet at the approx the same velocity on Y/T and got 14.5" penetration avg and 0.714 expansion. I consider that perfect.

Handload 10gr Unique Speer Gold Dot (Load of Bacon) 44 Special 15.5 3" S&W 629 0.429 200 1037 200 477 460 14.50 0.714


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PNNaUPAjc

[Tokarev]

Welcome, hardbitten!

Note that many of the 44 loads tested met penetration depths but few showed significant expansion.

The case can be made that penetration is the most important metric. But we also see, in the case of the Gold Dot anyway, that a little extra velocity turns a bullet that penetrates with some expansion into a bullet that penetrates with impressive expansion. If Underwood can do it surely others can do the same. Speer should look at producing a similar "Bulldog" load.

Hornady Critical Defense is an interesting load. It expanded well but failed to reach the minimum depth. This info is repeated on Hornady's website. I don't understand why they'd make such a load only to have it fall short on penetration especially when pretty much everything else in the C Defense/C Duty line does well in this regard.

Also, I note that Underwood no longer seems to load two different 44 Special Gold Dot loads. Unless my memory is faulty, I recall they offered a Bulldog load at 975 FPS and another "too hot for Bulldog" load at something like 1,100 FPS.



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[mtnbkr]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger comes out with a .44 mag GP100 next year.

Even if they did, I wouldn't shoot it. My 4" 629 is rough enough with mag loads, I don't want to experience that in a lighter and smaller gun. The only gun I *like* shooting mag loads from is my 5.5" Redhawk.

Chris

[Tokarev]

Even if they did, I wouldn't shoot it. My 4" 629 is rough enough with mag loads, I don't want to experience that in a lighter and smaller gun. The only gun I *like* shooting mag loads from is my 5.5" Redhawk.

ChrisGranted it would be strictly a novelty.

My guess is the cylinder will be made from whatever alloy they use for the LCR.

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[hardbitten]

Welcome, hardbitten!

...

Hornady Critical Defense is an interesting load. It expanded well but failed to reach the minimum depth. This info is repeated on Hornady's website. I don't understand why they'd make such a load only to have it fall short on penetration especially when pretty much everything else in the C Defense/C Duty line does well in this regard.

Also, I note that Underwood no longer seems to load two different 44 Special Gold Dot loads. Unless my memory is faulty, I recall they offered a Bulldog load at 975 FPS and another "too hot for Bulldog" load at something like 1,100 FPS.

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Thanks for the welcome,

As far as the Hornady load, I roughly triangulated that via two other web sites. I think it would be great at standard 44 pressure in the 5" GP100. Check it out:

165 grain Hornady Critical Defense 44 Special 5" GP100 gets 1065 at downrange

Hornady Critical Defense 5" GP100 1 0.429 165 1065 165 415 390 http://www.downrange.tv/blog/review-lipseys-ruger-gp100-44-special/40511/

165 grain Hornady Critical Defense 40 S&W at 1081 fps gets 16.5" and 0.594 expansion. guessing it would get more expansion and less penetration in 44?!

https://www.luckygunner.com/40-sw-165-gr-jhp-ftx-critical-defense-hornady-20-round#geltest

I understand the caliber difference but same bullet weight, same brand, same velocity is a very good starting point. also loads of bacon test is gel only I believe but with these numbers... who cares!

given all this, I'm going with the 3" GP100 with Underwood 200 grain as the better option but the 165 when jacked up fps due to 5" is good too!

[Tokarev]

Here's the gel/ballistics data for the 165gr load off Hornady's website:

www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-defense/44-special-165-gr-ftx

2.5" test gun. So the big question is will the increased velocity from a 5" gun improve penetration or lessen it?

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[hardbitten]

Here's the gel/ballistics data for the 165gr load off Hornady's website:

www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-defense/44-special-165-gr-ftx

2.5" test gun. So the big question is will the increased velocity from a 5" gun improve penetration or lessen it?

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Increasing velocity with that round significantly increases penetration according to web data with 4.25" barrel vs. 2.5"

Hornady got this with a 2.5" heavy clothing:
9.75" 2" 3" 0.5" 164 gr 99% 0.7


Y/T channel
Hornady Critical Defense 44 Special 15.5 4.25" S&W69 0.429 165 11.50 0.703 12.00 0.675 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aszzuAXBhs&t=270s


I still like the Underwood 200 gr round from 3" GP100 as ultimate for now. (guessing from a 5" it would be a supersonic ear drum shredder and the bullet would fragment- since it was on the hairy edge with 3" GP100).

(be interested in seeing a .44 Special Federal HST some day).

So Tokarev - thanks again for the welcome and helping to interest smart new shooters in the great .44 Special!

[Tokarev]

Increasing velocity with that round significantly increases penetration according to web data with 4.25" barrel vs. 2.5"

Hornady got this with a 2.5" heavy clothing:
9.75" 2" 3" 0.5" 164 gr 99% 0.7


Y/T channel
Hornady Critical Defense44 Special15.54.25" S&W690.42916511.500.70312.000.675https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aszzuAXBhs&t=270s


I still like the Underwood 200 gr round from 3" GP100 as ultimate for now. (guessing from a 5" it would be a supersonic ear drum shredder and the bullet would fragment- since it was on the hairy edge with 3" GP100).

(be interested in seeing a .44 Special Federal HST some day).

So Tokarev - thanks again for the welcome and helping to interest smart new shooters in the great .44 Special!Even from the longer barrel the 44 Critical Defense struggles to make 12" in gel.

I think your Underwood Gold Dot load is probably about as good as factory ammo gets. This or the actual Speer load is likely what I'd carry as well.

On a somewhat related topic; one of these days I need to take a stab at shooting the GT 250gr cast hollow point into organic gel and see what happens. That bullet, loaded to nearly 1,000 feet per second, did well in synthetic gel.

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[Buckeye63]

I have owned a Charter 44spl revolver of some sort for over 25 yrs .. The one I own now I purchased new 10+ years ago ... Im glad to see a renewed interest in the 44spl round .. Over the years I have used several different carry loads in my Charters ( and Rossi's) ... At this time I'm carrying the Federal 200gr LSWCHP ... Im sure the bullet don't open up in gel .. But it may when it strikes bone ...

After reading this thread , great read ,,, it seems that Underwood produces to great options , the 200gr GD Bulldog load & the 200gr LWC ... Id just about consider a stagered cylinder loaded with these two ...

You guys are very knowledgeable!!!

32431

[rathos]

Funny story about that. It was Clint Eastwood flubbing the script, but they left it in. He was supposed to say he used a special .44 magnum load, not a .44 special load.


Wasn't the 44 spcl Inspctor Harold Francis load of choice?

[LSW]

Moved way north and couldn't bring my autos. Have been carrying a 5" full lug 629 with Blazer 200gr Gold Dots. I find that the aluminum cases aren't really that bad to reload quickly.

I wonder how the terminal performance of these blazers is. I'm guessing they go about 850 FPS out of my 5" barrel. I can only hope it's pretty similar to the .40/.45 gold dots in the 180-230gr weight ranges. For trail defense I'm carrying the underwood 305 gr Hard Cast Lead Long Flat Nose Gas Check (https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/44-remington-magnum-305-grain-lead-long-flat-nose-gas-check?variant=18785707786297). The main problem is that I have no reloading setup and just shooting enough for proficiency is costing megabucks. .44 special practice ammo is really hard to come by, and even then it's over .50 per round.

I go back and forth on thinking I should carry something more stout with it for EDC, but at the end of the day those gold dots are probably the best choice if I'm not worried about large predators.

Have been contemplating trying USPSA revolver major at the club here but I'm pretty sure I would just look like an idiot. My reload splits are still 6 seconds with HKS speedloaders and I can only imagine how long that would make my times on a USPSA stage, lol, would just be embasrassing. With that said, going from those underwoods to a cowboy action special load brings new meaning to the phrase "bunny fart".

[entropy]

I started using the Blazer round recently. While certainly pricey, it’s better than some of the others. I did the usual water jug expansion test on it (same with all my carry ammo, perhaps useless but I have something to compare against gel tests) and it did what all GoldDots do. Field load is a 255gr Keith and either 7.5gr of Unique or 16.5gr of 2400.

Who cares about your times? That is the gaming part. I think the skillset you pick up would far outweigh the funny looks. Besides, they’re just jealous.

I dont know what your situation is, but for the price of a few boxes of that Underwood, you could get a basic Lee press and a set of dies. I load my .44s (and everything pistol that pushes limits) on an old beat up turret press.

[Tamara]

37452

All of these projectiles were stopped by the first layer of denim on the far side of a 16" block of Clear Ballistics gel, after penetrating 4LD going in.

.45 Colt 250gr LFP
.45 Colt 225gr STHP
.44 Spl 200gr GDHP
.44 Spl 200gr LSWC-HP
.38 Spl 148gr Gold Medal Match HBWC
9mm 124gr +P GDHP

The .45 Colt rounds were fired from a Charter Bulldog XL, the .44 Spl from a Model 296, the .38 Spl from a 2" Model 64, and the 9mm Gold Dot was the chambered round from my Langdon Beretta carry gun for a control.

I'm not certain that the aortic arch or spinal cord will function better with a .355" hole in it than a .452" hole.

[LSW]

37452

All of these projectiles were stopped by the first layer of denim on the far side of a 16" block of Clear Ballistics gel, after penetrating 4LD going in.

.45 Colt 250gr LFP
.45 Colt 225gr STHP
.44 Spl 200gr GDHP
.44 Spl 200gr LSWC-HP
.38 Spl 148gr Gold Medal Match HBWC
9mm 124gr +P GDHP

The .45 Colt rounds were fired from a Charter Bulldog XL, the .44 Spl from a Model 296, the .38 Spl from a 2" Model 64, and the 9mm Gold Dot was the chambered round from my Langdon Beretta carry gun for a control.

I'm not certain that the aortic arch or spinal cord will function better with a .355" hole in it than a .452" hole.

Wow that .44 gold dot did not expand at all. That's not reassuring.

[Tokarev]

Wow that .44 gold dot did not expand at all. That's not reassuring.Gold Dots expand well but they're not magic. They need velocity to make that happen.

Underwood probably has the "best" load for the 44 Special Gold Dot currently.

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[entropy]

Who wears four layers of denim?


37464

[LSW]

Gold Dots expand well but they're not magic. They need velocity to make that happen.

Underwood probably has the "best" load for the 44 Special Gold Dot currently.

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True. I wonder if a 5" barrel vs a 2.5" makes enough of a velocity difference to matter or if there is simply not enough powder in these factory .44 special gold dot loadings. I would love to order some of the underwood gold dots but since I live in a state where I can't get ammo shipped to me I'm stuck with what I can get in the stores, and for some reason the blazer gold dots seem to be the only gold dots available in .44 special or magnum.

[Tokarev]

True. I wonder if a 5" barrel vs a 2.5" makes enough of a velocity difference to matter or if there is simply not enough powder in these factory .44 special gold dot loadings. I would love to order some of the underwood gold dots but since I live in a state where I can't get ammo shipped to me I'm stuck with what I can get in the stores, and for some reason the blazer gold dots seem to be the only gold dots available in .44 special or magnum.Can a local shop order the ammo for you?

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[Tamara]

Who wears four layers of denim?

4LD is uses as a standard for a simple reason:

"There is not reason to believe that ammunition expansion performance will be sensitive to small variations in the denim, and good reason to believe that it will not. Four layers of denim is a convenient standard because this can be obtained simply by folding the cloth twice; either 3 or 5 layers does not appear to produce dramatically different results." -Duncan MacPherson

People like shooting bare gel or water jugs because it makes prettily expanded bullets that look like the ones from catalog photographs and it makes them feel good about their carry round because they think expansion performs a function other than reducing the likelihood of dramatic overpenetration. :shrug:

[Tamara]

With the current state of affairs, I wouldn't carry ammo not loaded by Federal, CCI/Speer, or Hornady. I used to carry Winchester, but they've joined Remington in a race to the bottom in ammo QC.

Underwood, Double Tap, Cor-Bon, and those other boutique manufacturers? If you want to carry that for self-defense, knock yourself out, but I ain't.

[Tamara]

Wow that .44 gold dot did not expand at all. That's not reassuring.

.44 Spl, .45 Colt (and many 230gr .45ACP loadings) are barely fast enough to expand reliably out of shorter-barreled guns when presented with any sort of situation other than bare gel/water.

I used to be all about my beloved .44 Spl wheelguns and 200gr GDHP or Federal 200gr LSWC-HP. Now I'd rather have a J-frame with six .32 H&R Mag 95gr LSWC than a snubnose Airweight L with five rounds of whatever. I mean, they all do the same thing; shoot clean through the jello block and stop in the clothes on the far side...

If I had a time machine, I'd go back to when I bought this 296 and buy a 242 instead. An L-frame Centennial snubbie loaded with seven shots of Federal Gold Medal Match 148gr HBWC would be the heat.

[LSW]

37452

All of these projectiles were stopped by the first layer of denim on the far side of a 16" block of Clear Ballistics gel, after penetrating 4LD going in.

.45 Colt 250gr LFP
.45 Colt 225gr STHP
.44 Spl 200gr GDHP
.44 Spl 200gr LSWC-HP
.38 Spl 148gr Gold Medal Match HBWC
9mm 124gr +P GDHP

The .45 Colt rounds were fired from a Charter Bulldog XL, the .44 Spl from a Model 296, the .38 Spl from a 2" Model 64, and the 9mm Gold Dot was the chambered round from my Langdon Beretta carry gun for a control.

I'm not certain that the aortic arch or spinal cord will function better with a .355" hole in it than a .452" hole.

Thanks again for the info, any idea what velocity you were getting from the .44 gold dot in that test (I'm guessing sub 800 out of the 2.5"?) and what the threshold for expansion in 4LD would be? I've seen it tested at 875 fps out of a 6" barrel, I'm hopefully getting around 850 out of my 5" but like most of my stuff I had to leave my chrono in the L48.

[Tamara]

Thanks again for the info, any idea what velocity you were getting from the .44 gold dot in that test (I'm guessing sub 800 out of the 2.5"?) and what the threshold for expansion in 4LD would be? I've seen it tested at 875 fps out of a 6" barrel, I'm hopefully getting around 850 out of my 5" but like most of my stuff I had to leave my chrono in the L48.

Not that same day, but the same lot of ammo averaged 811.9 fps for a ten shot string out of that same 296 a few years earlier.

Bear in mind that clear gel tends to cause bullets to under-expand. I've seen the 200gr GDHP expand really well in bare ordnance gel, but there it ran into the same problem as the 165gr Critical Defense: Vigorous expansion and mediocre penetration.

These days I tend to look at .44 Spl the same way I look at .38 Spl, basically, in that I think chasing expansion is a red herring.

37480
165gr Critical Defense in bare gel: Beautiful expansion. Woeful underpenetration.

[Tokarev]

165gr Critical Defense in bare gel: Beautiful expansion. Woeful underpenetration.

I talked to the Hornady folks awhile ago about this. They told me the Crit Def load was designed for civilian self-defense and was actually loaded to only penetrate 9-10" on purpose.

I didn't really like that answer.



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[Tokarev]

Does anyone have the Quickload reloading software? What does 44 SPL do when loaded to 21,000 PSI? Does the increase in pressure translate into a meaningful gain in velocity with a variety of bullets from a short barrel?

21,000 is SAAMI pressure for 45 Auto and should be quite safe in both old and new revolvers alike especially since there are a bunch of Smith 25s and 1917s out there that haven't blown up over the years.

Brian Pearce, in his data published some years ago, shows a 200gr JHP running 1100-ish from a 4.25" barrel. These are Cat Two loads with a max pressure of 22,000 psi or lower.

Sure wish one of the "big boys" would load some 44 SPL +P ammo. Nothing nuclear. Nothing Keith would be proud of. Just something a bit snappier than what's out there now.


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[Tamara]

Sure wish one of the "big boys" would load some 44 SPL +P ammo. Nothing nuclear. Nothing Keith would be proud of. Just something a bit snappier than what's out there now.


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In actual terminal effectiveness, what improvement do you think this will offer?

[Tokarev]

In actual terminal effectiveness, what improvement do you think this will offer?Hard to say.

It would likely do wonders for the Gold Dot since it isn't really going fast enough to expand at 750-800 fps. How would this same bullet do at 900-950 fps? Would it open up so quickly that it fails to make a minimum of 12 inches? My guess is it would open and still fall within the FBI specs especially after something like the clothing barrier.



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[DocGKR]

Almost all properly designed expanding projectiles upset in the first 1-3" of travel through tissue.

[JAH 3rd]

With the current state of affairs, I wouldn't carry ammo not loaded by Federal, CCI/Speer, or Hornady. I used to carry Winchester, but they've joined Remington in a race to the bottom in ammo QC.

Underwood, Double Tap, Cor-Bon, and those other boutique manufacturers? If you want to carry that for self-defense, knock yourself out, but I ain't.

One afternoon I was shooting the above referenced pistol with Remington Golden Saber 230gr ammo. This ammo is suppose to have a sealed case mouth and primer. So when the slide locked open on the last shot, there was what appeared to be an O-ring laying on the magazine follower. It was about the size of the primer, rubbery (flexible), very thin with a neutral color. Never seen anything like that before. Nor is there a part in this pistol that looks like this. My only thought so far is that somehow there may have been excess sealant around that primer that worked loose and ended up on the top of the follower. I showed it to another shooter on the range and he was equally perplexed.

[jetfire]

True enough.

So why pay a premium for defensive ammo that doesn't expand when one can probably get equal performance from less expensive target ammo that's probably just as effective?


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Welcome to "why smart people carry full wadcutters in their small revolvers"

[Tokarev]

Welcome to "why smart people carry full wadcutters in their small revolvers"Yes but is that really the best the ammunition manufacturers can provide? Should a full wadcutter really be the "gold standard" for defensive revolver ammo?

Market forces dictate everything so maybe the commercial interest in a "modern" 44 Special just isn't there. Still, it would seem Hornady is on the right track with the Critical Defense load. It needs more mass and/or higher velocity to give it the penetration it needs.

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[Tamara]

Yes but is that really the best the ammunition manufacturers can provide? Should a full wadcutter really be the "gold standard" for defensive revolver ammo?

If a bullet will poke a hole clean through a dude at pistol velocities, what more could it do?

[jetfire]

If a bullet will poke a hole clean through a dude at pistol velocities, what more could it do?

Blow him up into a shower of sparks?

[Joe in PNG]

If a bullet will poke a hole clean through a dude at pistol velocities, what more could it do?

Make him fly back dramatically into a bunch of rubbish? That's what Inspector Callahan's .44 Mag does to badguys!
(and yes, [/SARC])

[JAD]

Yes but is that really the best the ammunition manufacturers can provide? Should a full wadcutter really be the "gold standard" for defensive revolver ammo?

Market forces dictate everything so maybe the commercial interest in a "modern" 44 Special just isn't there. Still, it would seem Hornady is on the right track with the Critical Defense load. It needs more mass and/or higher velocity to give it the penetration it needs.

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If market forces dictated everything, the 44spl wouldn’t exist.

[Duelist]

If a bullet will poke a hole clean through a dude at pistol velocities, what more could it do?

Crush the enemy’s vertebrae, leave his women lamenting, and burn his fields.


With one shot.

[revchuck38]

When I bought my M21-4, I also bought two boxes of the Thunder Ranch load that Black Hills made up for it, a 250-grain LSWC at ~750 fps. I saved one box of it because reasons. The more I think of it, I may just bust that box open and load the gun and speedloaders with it instead of the GDs the next time I carry it.

[Lester Polfus]

I periodically have to go down the rabbit hole on this and realize once again, that there's very little to be gained over using a 9mm with a good load from Doc's list for Duty or CCW use. Intuitively, you roll one of those .44/.45 rounds around in your hand and compare it to a 9mm round and it just FEELS like it should work better...

Some smart dude said something about feeling lying though...

I think it's less clear cut for "field pistols" and "woods guns" but then I again, I woodsbummed for a few years with a G19 full of TMJ-FPs and didn't feel poorly prepared.

[DocGKR]

I would like to re-iterate a few points I have previously made:

-- Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
-- Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition.
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

[03RN]

I periodically have to go down the rabbit hole on this and realize once again, that there's very little to be gained over using a 9mm with a good load from Doc's list for Duty or CCW use. Intuitively, you roll one of those .44/.45 rounds around in your hand and compare it to a 9mm round and it just FEELS like it should work better...

Some smart dude said something about feeling lying though...

I think it's less clear cut for "field pistols" and "woods guns" but then I again, I woodsbummed for a few years with a G19 full of TMJ-FPs and didn't feel poorly prepared.

I actually think 9mm fmj fp kill better than 230grain fmj rn on coyotes down to Beaver. The .45 fmj works better on deer. Just my anecdotal experience.

[LSW]

Since .44 special seems to be no good, I'll probably just stick with .44 magnum for self defense since my revolver can shoot it. I'll try to find the 300 gr Hornady XTP or 225 Corbon DPX since Doc recommends those from his tests in 2003, hopefully I can find some. I'll probably continue to use the underwood 305gr on the trails.

[blake_g]

I load a 240 gr full wadcutter to 950 and have for a number of years. None of the critters that have bit the dust at the front end of it have led me to think that it is somehow insufficient...

[Tokarev]

Some more Clear Gel data:

https://www.guns.com/news/2019/12/24/44-spl-buffalo-bore-sig-sauer

[entropy]

That reminds me...I need to start polishing brass for my usual “winter loading marathon”.

I think it might have been yourself earlier in this thread that questioned the performance of the Sig loading. This kinda confirms it.

[revolvergeek]

Oh yeah, I am a big fan of big wadcutters. They can be pretty accurate, too. This is the RimRock 200 grain DEWC with a moderate amount of 800X powder, running at about 1050 fps.

I have a load very close to that; an NOE custom mold for a solid based 220ish grain wadcutter over Unique at around 1000FPS. It is devastating on milk jugs in initial testing. Completely exploded the first two jugs, tore up the third and stopped in the 6th. it was impressive to watch and listen to the water glug out of that clean edged perfectly round hole and rapidly empty down to the hole. I hope to try it on a hog at some point. I loaded up the same bullet in .44 special over some Red Dot and have it running about 800 FPS and it shoots nice in an n-frame but is a little too much for the 296. Going to drop it to around 675-700 for that.

[revolvergeek]

37452

All of these projectiles were stopped by the first layer of denim on the far side of a 16" block of Clear Ballistics gel, after penetrating 4LD going in.

.45 Colt 250gr LFP
.45 Colt 225gr STHP
.44 Spl 200gr GDHP
.44 Spl 200gr LSWC-HP
.38 Spl 148gr Gold Medal Match HBWC
9mm 124gr +P GDHP

The .45 Colt rounds were fired from a Charter Bulldog XL, the .44 Spl from a Model 296, the .38 Spl from a 2" Model 64, and the 9mm Gold Dot was the chambered round from my Langdon Beretta carry gun for a control.

I'm not certain that the aortic arch or spinal cord will function better with a .355" hole in it than a .452" hole.

Thanks for posting this! Always interesting to see more tests where again load and caliber don't seem to matter anyway near as much as I grew up thinking they did, at least in small handguns.

Yes, the 242 seems like it was a revolver well ahead of its time, along with the 315 Nightguard.

http://www.fototime.com/EF8DAC86E36DF10/large.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/FFC06F8588AF929/large.jpg

[Tokarev]

Some thoughts on Skeeter's load and a bit of additional load data.


https://youtu.be/JscLx0J0vlA

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