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STIPARTOUT
03-05-2011, 01:47 AM
So first a little backgroud:

I purchased my first handgun in August 2010, a HK P2000sk V3 in .40. I have not had any "formal" training, but have shot ~2500 rounds through my HK in the last 6 months (averaging 200 rounds per range trip and 2 range trips per month), have read a lot (A LOT), watched a ton of youtube vids etc. I know none of this is a replacement for proper training (more on that to come).

I've been working on my fundamentals: I first started with a boxer-type stance (strong-side foot back), changed to weaver stance and my shots got better. I was shooting with my non-dominant (left) eye closed, and when I started shooting with both eyes open, my groupings opened up some, but have since got them back down some.

I have learned a lot by doing and have progressed with my shot placement, but as my groupings are shrinking, I'm noticing a pattern. Although I feel that I have decent fundamentals, and have put them all together (high, thumbs forward grip; weaver stance; tight, but not too tight grip; focusing on the front sight etc.), but I'm shooting up and to the left. According to the diagnosis target, I'm anticipating the recoil or using too little finger. I sometimes catch myself in a bit of an anticipatory downward flinch, which I am working on using snap caps via dry fire, but why would a downward flinch cause my shots to hit up left? Also I'm using the pad of my finger, so I don;t think that's the problem.

Also when I started shooting with both eyes open, I noticed that when looking at my front sight and my sight picture that seemed aligned, I've since noticed that if I close my left eye, it's pretty clear I was actually aiming slightly left. I'm not sure why. Also when I focus on my front sight, I "see" two sets of rear sights, which I think where my problem was coming from. I know focusing on the front sight is what you're "supposed" to do, so that's what I did. How critical is focusing on the front sight? Is it dogma? Or does it fall into the "do what works for you" category. Since I haven't been shooting all that long, I'd like some outside input.

I also keep my point of aim below my intended point of impact, so I don't think that's the issue either.

Then today, I was at the range and figured out that if I focus on my target and bring the sights up into my field of view I have a more aligned, albeit "blurry" three dot sight picture.

I'm in this odd phase where I'm trying to figure out these nuances to figure out what works, but each time I do, my groupings open up because I'm not used to it regardless if it's actually right or not.

This is where the training come into play. I think I'm going to do a private 1 on 1 lesson with an instructor before my bad habits become any more tempered. If anyone has any recommendations for instructors in the SF Bay Area, I would greatly like to hear them. Also if you have any opinions on my target (below) I'd like to hear them.

This is 50 rounds of Federal 180 grain ball .40 through my P2000sk at 15 yards on a standard B27 target. Neither fast nor slow rate of fire (~2 seconds between shots).

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn62/stipartout/86352fb1.jpg

Cheers.

Jay Cunningham
03-05-2011, 01:53 AM
I think I'm going to do a private 1 on 1 lesson with an instructor before my bad habits become any more tempered.

A couple of hours with an experienced instructor watching you closely will move you leaps and bounds ahead in terms of your performance.

edited to add: "Diagnosing" shooting errors from either descriptions or pictures of targets via the internet is several orders of magnitude harder to do than in person - which is hard enough as it is. However, as a very crude generalization (from your posted target) it would appear that you are having issues with a hard front sight focus. Since you specifically mention front sight focus in your original post, we may have a winner... can I ask you how your eyes are? Have you had an eye exam recently?

STIPARTOUT
03-05-2011, 02:21 AM
Can you explain what a "hard front sight focus" means? Sorry, I am still new at this. I definitely understand the difficulty in both giving and getting a definitive answer over the internet. I have no expectation that all my problems will be solved with this post, just looking for any insight you may have that may help me identify issues to work on when I do get one on one with an instructor.

I wear contacts, but my eyes are corrected to 20/15. I'm 27, so no difficulties focusing.

I think another issue I have is I make a number of adjustments during a single session, so there is some variability introduced there also. I should probably try to log a baseline group by shooting the same way each shot regardless of where they hit.

Cheers.

Jay Cunningham
03-05-2011, 02:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, do you know which eye is your dominant eye?

"hard front sight focus" - to me - simply means the ability to get a crystal clear focus on the top edge of your front sight with both eyes open.

STIPARTOUT
03-05-2011, 02:38 AM
I'm right-eye dominant. I don't have any issues getting a hard front sight focus, however I find that when I do this, and get my sights aligned, when I "check" myself by closing my left eye, I find my point of aim is actually left of where I'm intending. In order to fix this, with the front sight in focus, I have to compensate by aiming right. Whereas if I focus on the target and bring the sights into my line of sight, and do a "check", the sights are where they should be.

David
03-05-2011, 03:28 AM
:cool: Might be of some help, I know it helped me and my 4 eyes: http://pistol-training.com/archives/433

Jay Cunningham
03-05-2011, 04:05 AM
That thread that David referenced is worth looking at. When you focus with both eyes on your front sight, closing your non-dominant eye should not shift what you see. Just curious again, but how does that target look when you shoot it at 7 yards?

Look, I'm new to instructing and I'm still learning about the fine art of diagnosis myself. One thing that I have learned is to be careful not to start chasing rainbows. Pay the money to get a pistol instructor to work with you for a couple of hours.

Check out here: http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx

It looks like a lot of opportunities for NRA pistol training in your area - I'd consider taking advantage of it if I were you. See if you can find out anything (reputation-wise) about some of the local training and try to find a good instructor cadre. The current NRA material is actually quite good and will help you. If you're still experiencing these focus issues after working with an instructor, I wouldn't rule out an eye exam.

YVK
03-05-2011, 10:46 AM
Subcompact pistol in 40 cal would not be my choice for a first pistol to learn shooting on. Training>>>>>hardware selection, but hardware selection may contribute to propagation of bad habits.

beltjones
03-05-2011, 01:44 PM
There are only a few absolutes when it comes to shooting a pistol, and one of them is that for the best accuracy with iron sights, you need to be focusing as hard as possible on the front sight.

As far as whether to keep both eyes open, close one, open one and squint the other, etc, that's just up to whatever works for you. Everyone has a different degree of "strength" of their dominant eye (in other words, some people's dominant eye is really dominant, other people have very balanced eyes, some people have astigmatism, and so on), so that will determine whether they can open both eyes or whether they have to squint or something with their weak eye.

Like others have said, it's impossible to diagnose what you're doing without seeing you do it. If you've played golf, you know that you can think your grip, stance, and follow through are great, but then an instructor will tell you you're doing everything wrong. Shooting is exactly the same.

I will say to throw that diagnostic wheel thing in the garbage. It's basically meaningless. If you're hitting high, it could be due to your technique, and it could be due to the way your POA, sights, gun, and ammo are working together.

And I agree 100% with everyone who said to get with a good instructor as soon as possible, preferably one like Todd who is on the cutting edge of current technique. A lot of the old timers can shoot, no doubt, but if they're going to teach you 50 year old technique that you're just going to have to scrap later when you get with a more modern teacher it might not be money well spent.

STIPARTOUT
03-05-2011, 02:25 PM
Subcompact pistol in 40 cal would not be my choice for a first pistol to learn shooting on. Training>>>>>hardware selection, but hardware selection may contribute to propagation of bad habits.

I have a P30 9mm v3 on a 10-day wait that I'm picking up next week. The P2000sk is ultimately for CCW.

Thanks for the comments. I don't have any pics of targets at 7 yards, I will do that next time I'm at the range.

STIPARTOUT
03-21-2011, 11:24 PM
I picked up my P30 V3 9mm. Let me just say that I love this gun. I took it to the range, field striped it, cleaned out all the packing grease, lubes it up and started throwing lead. The first time out I began with 250 rounds of Winchester NATO 124 grain. I followed that with 50 Rounds of Sellier and Beloit 115g grain. Not a single malfunction of any kind.

I mistakenly grabbed my chisel instead of punch, so I had to run medium grips all around the first day out which made the grips feel small in my hand. I have since swapped to the large backstrap and kept the medium side grips (I have long, skinny fingers).

After my last range trip, when I established I was shooting to the left, the first 20 rounds sailed ~ 6" left at 15 yards. Shit! at first thought, I figured my problem had gotten worse. I followed with another 20 rounds, same issue. I loaded up a mag for a friend who has been very accurate to that point, nice grouping, but all left. I shot the next 20 from rest. Same issue.

I picked up my P2000SK .40 S&W, shot two mags, they weren't great groupings, but they weren't left. So I brought it to my local shop and had the sights adjusted. They immediately commented that they were off. So at least I'm not crazy, or at least not a terrible shot - still left, but had a decent grouping.

This represents before and after the adjustment

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn62/stipartout/53bea58b.jpg

I went home and read a bunch about trigger press and realized I was jerking/slapping the trigger and poor follow-through.

After my last post, I contacted a local instructor and lined up a full day of instruction. My goal was to line it up prior to my CCW class/qualification on Friday so after some back and forth with the instructor, I scheduled it for today, but because of the weather here in CA, I postponed. I instead hopped over to the indoor range to get some practice in all the same.

I focusing on trigger press and follow through, I low and behold I wasn't pushing my shots left.

Here is 50 rounds with my P30 at 7 yards with ~ 1 shot/2 seconds. Loaded 5 round mags, first shot in DA the following 4 in SA. I know it's not great, but the best results I've had with a pistol thus far. Also, I now have 570 rounds through my P30 without any sort of stoppage or malfunction. I say again. I love this gun.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn62/stipartout/585f7663.jpg

I followed that up with 50 rounds with my P2000SK at 7 yards. Also 5 round mags, first shot in DA and follow ups in SA. I got a little sloppy with some of my SA follow-ups to my first DA shot (the five shots to the left).

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn62/stipartout/e9ab44d9.jpg

I'm still planning on having my full day of private instruction, and I know it's not all that impressive, but I was pleased with myself. I'm feeling confident about my CCW qualification on Friday. There's obviously still work to be done on my sight picture (have a set of Hiene's QWIK straight 8's on the way) and trigger press (precision) before I even begin to work on speed, but I hope to get there. Any tips on honing ones precision?

If I haven't doted enough on the P30 already, It fits perfectly in my crossbreed supertuck designed for my P2000SK and truth be told actually seems to conceal better than the SK at ~ 4:00 as well (I don't have the cahones to AWIB for fear that I may shoot my cahones off). I'm now thinking I may sell my SK and pick up a P30S in LEM while I still can.

MDS
03-22-2011, 09:26 AM
Any tips on honing ones precision?

At the risk of engaging in a little bit of blind-leading-the-blind, here are my thoughts.

I'm going through a similar time as you right now, in terms of working on accuracy first, accuracy second, and only then allowing myself to worry about making my shooting more accurate. For pure accuracy, I find that nothing works so well as doing The Wall Drill for about 10 minutes every day, and doing lots of Ball-and-Dummy and Dummy-and-Ball drills. I got a SW 617 a few weeks ago, which is a 22lr DA revolver, and it's awesome for practicing pure accuracy. That long, heavy DA trigger pull really challenges you. As ToddG put it, once you can pull that trigger well, everything else is easy mode.

Also, I'm finding there's a tight relationship between accuracy and speed. You can focus on one or the other during a particular drill. But some aspects of it can't be tested except at speed. That's why I've decided to use The Test in 15 or 20 seconds as my main measure of marksmanship. At those speeds, it really tests how well you've ingrained the trigger press and sight picture, more than recoil control or anything else. I also like that you can "pass" it by getting all your hits in the black, but you can measure your progress by getting a better score.

Frank D.
03-22-2011, 02:49 PM
Diagnosing from targets on the internet is terrible.

Having said that, great improvement.

I think everyone (myself included) wants to get 'there' as quickly as possible when they start out, but you (we all, not just you) need to remember, there are no shortcuts*. There is no magic gun, holster, belt or shoelace. Take your time, get that training, focus on your fundamentals and shoot alot.

You won't be the same shooter you are today in 10k rounds.


*Except for getting good, solid instruction, that is.

section8usmc
07-23-2011, 07:09 AM
Something else you may want to consider at least trying. Marksmanship naturally runs in my family. Darts, bow and arrow, pitching a baseball, and obviously firearms. I am a retired Marine. I have shot pool since I was a kid, as that was my love and hobby above all the others. One day, I noticed that, the guy that taught me how to shoot pool, always turned his head slightly to one side naturally. Only a few others that shot did this. After taking note, I got in my stance, and realized I did the same, whereas most people kept their head straight. We were unstoppable wherever we went. So, next time I went to the range, I took note I did this when shooting a pistol too.

I am right eye dominant, and turn my head naturally, slightly toward the right by say, 10,15 or 20 degrees. I always have. What I found was, this was an integral part of the natural ability I was so blessed with. I have 20 / 5 vision in one eye, and about 20 / 7 in the other, which obviously can only help, no corrections, no surgeries. Just born like that. Doing further research into this on my own, it seems that this actually balances (not completely mind you) out your eyes from one being dominant, to being closer to equal. It seemed strange to me until I tried with my head completely straight. I was off. Bow, rifle, pistol, doesn't matter. I do it with all of them. To someone that does not do it naturally, it may seem strange, but can't hurt to try. Just a small head turn TOWARD you DOMINANT eye. May not work for you, or it may be that missing link. Next time you are at a bar, or the range, watch the shooters at the table or the line. Every once in a while, you'll see it. Hope this helps !