Van slams into worshipers leaving London mosque.

[StraitR]

Tough time to be a pedestrian in London.


London crash: Van slams into crowd leaving mosque, one arrested - Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/19/london-crash-van-slams-into-crowd-leaving-mosque-one-arrested.html)

Several people were hurt after a van slammed into a crowd -- including worshippers leaving a mosque -- on a road in north London around midnight Sunday night, witnesses said, as police added that one person was arrested.

Witnesses told Sky News that the driver, described as a white man, appeared to hit the crowd "deliberately." The crash immediately raised concerns of another terrorist attack in London; however, police did not reveal the possible cause.

[Sensei]

Preliminary reports of some people receiving CPR - not good. I'm sad to see more people hurt or killed. If this was an Islamist attack, I hope it spurs the Muslim community in London to action in rooting out this cancer.

[45dotACP]

Hmmm...wonder what the motives are?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

Preliminary reports of some people receiving CPR - not good. I'm sad to see more people hurt or killed. If this was an Islamist attack, I hope it spurs the Muslim community in London to action in rooting out this cancer.

Yes, absolutely senseless violence. It's still early, but it's reading like a reprisal targeting muslims after the recent many acts of Islamic terrorism.

ETA: One now confirmed dead.

[Odin Bravo One]

Preliminary reports of some people receiving CPR - not good. I'm sad to see more people hurt or killed. If this was an Islamist attack, I hope it spurs the Muslim community in London to action in rooting out this cancer.

I'll be over here on a breath hold.......

[hufnagel]

I'll be over here on a breath hold.......

doesn't work as sarcasm. you're one of those people who can hold their breath for so long it makes the un-dead jealous. :D

[ca survivor]

this quote from a lady answering the local news sums it up............

"It wasn't an "attack on ALL Londoner's"...just Muslims. Their behavior in Europe (from what I'm seeing) has been appalling! They've been rioting, protesting, talking down to London citizens, fighting in the streets, blocking streets with their prayer sessions, attacking people, killing the citizens in London, so you can only push people so far before someone comes to a "breaking point" and lets loose. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but people are fed up! Their government does nothing! Why is this article a "big deal" when they've been killing off London citizens? If these people are so good, then why don't they talk to their own people and tell them not to act this way? Catch my drift? Don't kill and destroy European citizens...assimilate or go back to the Middle East. If they don't like European or American cultures, then please, don't invade these countries? Don't "force" people to be like you! We are individuals. Accept or go back home."

[HCM]

Initial reports are the driver was "a white man." There is speculation this could be some sort of retaliation. We'll see how it plays out.

[TiroFijo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/19/finsbury-park-mosque-latest-terror-attack-london-live/

...the driver is a coward and an idiot.

[blues]

Makes no difference who the attackers are. Makes no difference who the victims are. All who do wanton violence to others for whatever reason they may have concocted need to be accorded the same justice whether at the end of a gun, end of a rope or via the courts.

[Zincwarrior]

Makes no difference who the attackers are. Makes no difference who the victims are. All who do wanton violence to others for whatever reason they may have concocted need to be accorded the same justice whether at the end of a gun, end of a rope or via the courts.

Extremely true.

[Peally]

The constant terrorist attacks aren't being handled by the government whatsoever. You're going to see a lot more nutjob retaliatory attacks as a result.

[Odin Bravo One]

doesn't work as sarcasm. you're one of those people who can hold their breath for so long it makes the un-dead jealous. :D

Used to be............ the days of 4::30 working breath holds are well behind me now.

[TiroFijo]

The constant terrorist attacks aren't being handled by the government whatsoever. You're going to see a lot more nutjob retaliatory attacks as a result.

I think there are so many things we don't know about this "handling", that it is impossible to say...
It woud be VERY difficult to predict or respond adecuately to all threats, no matter how committed or efficient you are. Sad, scary, but true.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here is the fear - there are two kinds of society (a touch of an overgeneralization but) - justice societies and vengeance societies. In the former, people accept that the government will deal with evil doers and deal out punishment, provide protection and try to prevent evil. In the latter, rulers do not provide such but individuals, groups, tribes, religions, families deal with others through aggression and retaliation. No member of the opposition is off limits as their women and children will just provide more enemies. Middle Eastern societies for the most part seem to be vengeance groups (debatable as there are justice oriented folks), that feeds into terrorism as an acceptable tactic. If the Western cultures and populace feel that their justice societies are failing, vengeance will surface (as in the quote from the woman). The inability of the government to provide safety will push folks over the edge and you will see civil wars. After 9/11, I heard a discussion of the Muslims in Europe and their risk to Europe. A state department guy said that the Europeans have a deep cultural strain of genocidal actions and that can easily surface under stress. For example, the Germans in WWII and the French collaborating with them on the Holocaust.

[TiroFijo]

How is the government going to prevent terrorist attacks from a few determined individuals, lone wolf or small closed cells?

Sure, you can do this and that, but here's the short answer: can't be done.

[Peally]

I think there are so many things we don't know about this "handling", that it is impossible to say...
It woud be VERY difficult to predict or respond adecuately to all threats, no matter how committed or efficient you are. Sad, scary, but true.

I have no doubt that law enforcement is doing what it can, but that's not what I'm talking about ;)

Kinda like the US with Obama, while the popo is busting his ass the administration is walking right behind them telling them how useless and evil they are. Right now Britain has an immigration problem.

The common boob in the pub sees big brother has his priorities fucked and chaos is growing, and it pisses him off. Once in a while one of those boobs turns out to be mentally unstable and decides to act for himself.

[Nephrology]

this quote from a lady answering the local news sums it up............

"It wasn't an "attack on ALL Londoner's"...just Muslims. Their behavior in Europe (from what I'm seeing) has been appalling! They've been rioting, protesting, talking down to London citizens, fighting in the streets, blocking streets with their prayer sessions, attacking people, killing the citizens in London, so you can only push people so far before someone comes to a "breaking point" and lets loose. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but people are fed up! Their government does nothing! Why is this article a "big deal" when they've been killing off London citizens? If these people are so good, then why don't they talk to their own people and tell them not to act this way? Catch my drift? Don't kill and destroy European citizens...assimilate or go back to the Middle East. If they don't like European or American cultures, then please, don't invade these countries? Don't "force" people to be like you! We are individuals. Accept or go back home."

Sorry, but this is xenophobia, pure and simple.

Nobody deserves to be murdered because they belong to a given religion/culture/society. Islam is an incredibly diverse religion - in many ways more diverse than even Christianity - and of which only a very, very small number of believers would seek to commit violence against another. There are 1.1 billion Muslims in the world - the idea that all of them somehow are deserving of murder because of the actions of a few is beyond absurd.

You do realize that it is language like this that enables terrorists like ISIS to murder innocent people in the West, right?

[45dotACP]

this quote from a lady answering the local news sums it up............

"It wasn't an "attack on ALL Londoner's"...just Muslims. Their behavior in Europe (from what I'm seeing) has been appalling! They've been rioting, protesting, talking down to London citizens, fighting in the streets, blocking streets with their prayer sessions, attacking people, killing the citizens in London, so you can only push people so far before someone comes to a "breaking point" and lets loose. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but people are fed up! Their government does nothing! Why is this article a "big deal" when they've been killing off London citizens? If these people are so good, then why don't they talk to their own people and tell them not to act this way? Catch my drift? Don't kill and destroy European citizens...assimilate or go back to the Middle East. If they don't like European or American cultures, then please, don't invade these countries? Don't "force" people to be like you! We are individuals. Accept or go back home."

That "lady from the local news" isn't doing much to keep this sort of thing from happening...at best, that's telling Muslims they're all responsible for ISIS...at worst it's a thinly veiled praise of vigilantism.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Unfortunately, whole societies will go that way if the 'legitimate government' fails act to provide safety.

[Peally]

You do realize that it is language like this that enables terrorists like ISIS to murder innocent people in the West, right?

ISIS isn't worrying about random people's opinions to "enable" their attacks, they couldn't give two shits less.

[Drang]

ISIS isn't worrying about random people's opinions to "enable" their attacks, they couldn't give two shits less.

They'll damn' sure lock onto this as some kind of justification.

Which is annoying because its been almost 16 years since 9/11, and every time one or more goat humping neo-barbarians gets all jihady and murders a bunch of people we get lectured by some snide, superior jackass not to blame all adherents of the Religion of Peace.

Yeah, we get it, it's wrong when they do it, it'd be wrong if we do it. Which is why these things are so rare!

So this yob gets all counter-jihady, and everyone's saying "He shouldn't'a oughta done that..." but how many are thinking "Maybe if you blokes had been a little more supportive this wouldn't have happened"?

[Peally]

I'm OK with them locking onto it as justification. If the fuckers don't use that they'll invent another 8000 reasons. Having a loud mouth and posting when you're pissed on the internet is something they'll never appreciate.

[ReverendMeat]

Sorry, but this is xenophobia, pure and simple.

Nobody deserves to be murdered because they belong to a given religion/culture/society. Islam is an incredibly diverse religion - in many ways more diverse than even Christianity - and of which only a very, very small number of believers would seek to commit violence against another. There are 1.1 billion Muslims in the world - the idea that all of them somehow are deserving of murder because of the actions of a few is beyond absurd.

The number of those who actively seek to do violence against innocent people may be small, but the number of those who at least tacitly support such actions is right around 20% in the US and 30% worldwide.

[Peally]

The weekend fun continues. We're at what, a terrorist attack a week in London now?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/police-vehicle-rammed-on-champs-elysees-in-possible-terrorist-attack/2017/06/19/fde74cae-54ff-11e7-840b-512026319da7_story.html

[TiroFijo]

They'll damn' sure lock onto this as some kind of justification.

Which is annoying because its been almost 16 years since 9/11, and every time one or more goat humping neo-barbarians gets all jihady and murders a bunch of people we get lectured by some snide, superior jackass not to blame all adherents of the Religion of Peace.

Yeah, we get it, it's wrong when they do it, it'd be wrong if we do it. Which is why these things are so rare!

So this yob gets all counter-jihady, and everyone's saying "He shouldn't'a oughta done that..." but how many are thinking "Maybe if you blokes had been a little more supportive this wouldn't have happened"?

???????????? I for one don't think that way.

Only a simpleton tries to find easy, angered, fast answers to things that that are way more complex than it may seem at first glance.

[StraitR]

Peally That's in Paris, but I think your London math is about right anyway.

[Zincwarrior]

The number of those who actively seek to do violence against innocent people may be small, but the number of those who at least tacitly support such actions is right around 20% in the US and 30% worldwide.

And? That means work needs to be done to change hearts and minds, not blow their brains out.

[critter]

???????????? I for one don't think that way.

Only a simpleton tries to find easy, angered, fast answers to things that that are way more complex than it may seem at first glance.

What does the second, third, and forth glance add to the mix? What are those complexities?

[ReverendMeat]

And? That means work needs to be done to change hearts and minds, not blow their brains out.

I was responding to the "small number of muslims" claim and wasn't advocating any particular course of action. Though I'd be curious to hear how your "winning of hearts and minds" idea works.

[Peally]

Peally That's in Paris, but I think your London math is about right anyway.

There is a joke about "they all look the same!" somewhere in there.

[TiroFijo]

What does the second, third, and forth glance add to the mix? What are those complexities?

Americans... :D

For starters... perhaps you could put yourself in the situation of a middle eastern/arab, and think why could someone of this region could hold a grievance against you or other colonial countries.

[critter]

Americans... :D

For starters... perhaps you could put yourself in the situation of a middle eastern/arab, and think why could someone of this region could hold a grievance against you or other colonial countries.

How does such a mental exercise of situational reversal lead to a resolution of the problem at hand? Sounds more like utopian wishes than practical planning.

[Robinson]

Americans... :D

For starters... perhaps you could put yourself in the situation of a middle eastern/arab, and think why could someone of this region could hold a grievance against you or other colonial countries.

Many of the attacks carried out recently have been by people with at least loose ties to ISIS. ISIS is not simply holding a grudge against Imperialist nations -- they want to kill or enslave anyone who does not believe as they do. Including less devout (in their eyes) Muslims.

I agree that immigrants (from anywhere) should be expected to assimilate into their new host society instead of trying to force their new host society to adapt to them. I understand anger against those who refuse to do so. I do not condone violence against immigrants or members of any religion without proper justification. Cowardly Terrorist Bastards do not share those ideals.

[blues]

How does such a mental exercise of situational reversal lead to a resolution of the problem at hand? Sounds more like utopian wishes than practical planning.

Well, I guess you can (legitimately) make the argument that change is created at the individual level. Though I don't know how many folks seem to be on the "road to Shambala" these days...

[TiroFijo]

How does such a mental exercise of situational reversal lead to a resolution of the problem at hand? Sounds more like utopian wishes than practical planning.

If you cannot even understand what the other side thinks, and why (objectively o not), then it would be really difficult to tackle the problem with any hope of solution.

[Zincwarrior]

I was responding to the "small number of muslims" claim and wasn't advocating any particular course of action. Though I'd be curious to hear how your "winning of hearts and minds" idea works.

Chocolate and Texmex.

[TAZ]

Americans... :D

For starters... perhaps you could put yourself in the situation of a middle eastern/arab, and think why could someone of this region could hold a grievance against you or other colonial countries.

Confused by this statement. Are you saying that because western governments have meddled in the ME for decades as a means of keeping energy prices low that Arabs have justification to hold a grievance against innocent children at a concert?? If it's NOT ok for westerners to hold a grievance against innocent Muslims due to the rash of radical Islamic terror across Europe and the ME why should we give a crap about their grievances?

Just to clarify, I'm of the opinion that holding grievances against one person for the actions of another is beyond retarded for all cultures.

[critter]

If you cannot even understand what the other side thinks, and why (objectively o not), then it would be really difficult to tackle the problem with any hope of solution.

Why bring into your home any individuals with (major) grievances against you in the first place?

[TiroFijo]

Confused by this statement. Are you saying that because western governments have meddled in the ME for decades as a means of keeping energy prices low that Arabs have justification to hold a grievance against innocent children at a concert?? If it's NOT ok for westerners to hold a grievance against innocent Muslims due to the rash of radical Islamic terror across Europe and the ME why should we give a crap about their grievances?

Just to clarify, I'm of the opinion that holding grievances against one person for the actions of another is beyond retarded for all cultures.

Decades?... try MUCH longer :D Nearly all the boundaries in the ME have to do with foreign interests, and little with self determination, from the beginning.

"justified" is in the eye of the beholder... time and again, one man's "freedom fighter" is another's "terrorist".

To the guys being bombed to keep Saddam (or whoever) in place, then bombed again and occupied to remove him, then losing familiy and kids to a war of largely foreign interests being fought in your land, the lines do become blurred...

Every single thing adds up: traditions, anger, religion, true grievances and resentment, the eternal searh of a scapegoat for one's country miseries, etc...

[TiroFijo]

Why bring into your home any individuals with (major) grievances against you in the first place?

How are you going to identify the ones with (major) grievances?

Or do you think it is feasible to deport all muslims out of USA?

Or perhaps that impeding a few more to join in will result is less danger, given the huge numbers of alreadly existing potential lone wolfs?

[TiroFijo]

Or do you suggest the "solution" of carpet bombing the entire ME will solve anything?

[critter]

How are you going to identify the ones with (major) grievances?

Or do you think it is feasible to deport all muslims out of USA?

Or perhaps that impeding a few more to join in will result is less danger, given the huge numbers of alreadly existing potential lone wolfs?

I'm more of a (major) student of history and human nature. There is a blood purge looming on the horizon and many innocents will be caught in it. I see it as the absolutely inevitable result of lala land utter delusional stupidity.

[TiroFijo]

I'm more of a (major) student of history and human nature. There is a blood purge looming on the horizon and many innocents will be caught in it. I see it as the absolutely inevitable result of lala land utter delusional stupidity.

So your proposed solution is????

[critter]

So your proposed solution is????

Prepare for the reality of a (not so) civil war.

In the mean time, be like Poland. Stop bringing them in. Zero appeasement from the host nation. Zero tolerance of demands for special treatment. Deport anyone who disagrees. Kill anyone who becomes violent over it. Perhaps the ones who are left may live in peace.

Shoving this mess down the throats of the native culture will most certainly not end well.

[TiroFijo]

Prepare for the reality of a (not so) civil war.

In the mean time, be like Poland. Stop bringing them in. Zero appeasement from the host nation. Zero tolerance of demands for special treatment. Deport anyone who disagrees. Kill anyone who becomes violent over it. Perhaps the ones who are left may live in peace.

Shoving this mess down the throats of the native culture will most certainly not end well.

Respectfully...

https://i2.wp.com/www.paulduane.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tinfoilhatguy.jpg?fit=320%2C240

[TAZ]

Decades?... try MUCH longer :D Nearly all the boundaries in the ME have to do with foreign interests, and little with self determination, from the beginning.

"justified" is in the eye of the beholder... time and again, one man's "freedom fighter" is another's "terrorist".

To the guys being bombed to keep Saddam (or whoever) in place, then bombed again and occupied to remove him, then losing familiy and kids to a war of largely foreign interests being fought in your land, the lines do become blurred...

Every single thing adds up: traditions, anger, religion, true grievances and resentment, the eternal searh of a scapegoat for one's country miseries, etc...

Wasn't looking for anyone else's opinion but YOURS. Do YOU believe that Muslims are justified in blowing up children because the west has meddled in their affairs for generations?

[critter]

Respectfully...

https://i2.wp.com/www.paulduane.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tinfoilhatguy.jpg?fit=320%2C240

hahahaha.. yeah.. respectfully.

Britain now has over a 5% Muslim population. That's pretty much the point of no return. Britain absolutely will have major bloodshed in its not so distant future. The USA isn't there yet.

[Zincwarrior]

hahahaha.. yeah.. respectfully.

Britain now has over a 5% Muslim population. That's pretty much the point of no return. Britain absolutely will have major bloodshed in its not so distant future. The USA isn't there yet.

Or...while not nearly as awesome as the US, they integrate these immigrants like they have integrated everyone else.

[TiroFijo]

Wasn't looking for anyone else's opinion but YOURS. Do YOU believe that Muslims are justified in blowing up children because the west has meddled in their affairs for generations?

I don't agree with that, at all...

But then... I haven't been in their situation.

Do YOU believe the USA or anyone else is justified in blowing up innocent arab children because their city has the bad luck of being currently occupied by ISIS (or insert your most hated arab/muslim extremist group here)?

[TiroFijo]

BTW, have a thick skin, and keep discussion civil, don't pull a Chuteur on me... :D

I bet we all agree more than disagree on this. Much more.

[critter]

Or...while not nearly as awesome as the US, they integrate these immigrants like they have integrated everyone else.

Maybe. I don't think they've integrated nearly as successfully as either portrayed or perceived, but there's always the possibility that I'm dead wrong. There's a chance that Britain and other Euro countries will, quite exceptionally, not follow the pattern. I truly hope they don't.

[HCM]

I don't agree with that, at all...

But then... I haven't been in their situation.

Do YOU believe the USA or anyone else is justified in blowing up innocent arab children because their city has the bad luck of being currently occupied by ISIS (or insert your most hated arab/muslim extremist group here)?

Despite the obliviousness of the world and US public, we are at WAR with ISIS. There is no "nice" "clean" way to fight a war, never has been, never will be. Air power is our way of reaching them before the reach us.

The argument that terror attacks by the other side are their version of "reach" is invalid as they are targeted at civilians not a by product. This may be a small practical distinction but it is a significant moral.

[critter]

BTW, have a thick skin, and keep discussion civil, don't pull a Chuteur on me... :D

I bet we all agree more than disagree on this. Much more.

(almost) assuredly so. I think most in this discussion have pretty thick skin. Historically, appeasement and placation haven't led to peaceful long term solutions -- and this is what appears to be the current (and past) trend of solutions proffered.

[HCM]

hahahaha.. yeah.. respectfully.

Britain now has over a 5% Muslim population. That's pretty much the point of no return. Britain absolutely will have major bloodshed in its not so distant future. The USA isn't there yet.

Britain has done a better job assimilating their Muslim population than the rest of Europe but they are not by nature a melting pot. What ever diversity they have is the legacy of their empire. They did not choose immigration. A Pakistani with U.K. citizenship and right on abode in UK because of grandpas military or civil service to Britain is their obligation.

The US on the other hand has few historical ties to Muslim nations and can choose who we want here.

This comes back again the fact Islam is both a religion and a system of government. Until Islam has some sort of reformation which divides the religious and political aspects of Islam you will never have true assimilation into western societies.

[TiroFijo]

Despite the obliviousness of the world and US public, we are at WAR with ISIS. There is no "nice" "clean" way to fight a war, never has been, never will be. Air power is our way of reaching them before the reach us.

The argument that terror attacks by the other side are their version of "reach" is invalid as they are targeted at civilians not a by product. This may be a small practical distinction but it is a significant moral.

When the other side has no planes, missiles, nor drones to get you, eventually they go for whatever they "can" do... and since civilian targets are far easier and get more media, that's the way they go to inflict the most "suffering" on the other side and break their resolve.

In WWII the USA used the air force to target (or exterminate, like Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.) the civilian population of Germany and Japan, so this concept should not be entirely foreign to you. That's only a few decades back... Vietnam also had the USA targeting civilian areas.

[critter]

When the other side has no planes, missiles, nor drones to get you, eventually they go for whatever they "can" do... and since civilian targets are far easier and get more media, that's the way they go to inflict the most "suffering" on the other side and break their resolve.

In WWII the USA used the air force to target (or exterminate, like Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.) the civilian population of Germany and Japan, so this concept should not be entirely foreign to you. That's only a few decades back... Vietnam also had the USA targeting civilian areas.

Like it or not, civilians have always been military targets -- the attempt to remove the enemy's will to fight, infrastructure, whatever the reason du jour. It can be argued that civilians are collateral damage as opposed to targets in the Drone Wars, but your point is valid. Of course they will fight back in whatever way they can, and more will join the fight.

[TiroFijo]

The thing is, in an asymmetrical war, the less selective and surgical your strikes are on the blurred enemy, the worst it is going to get...

Same with your actions/speech/gestures out of the main theater of operations.

[Nephrology]

ISIS isn't worrying about random people's opinions to "enable" their attacks, they couldn't give two shits less.

What matters isn't whether or not this provides justification for ISIS. What matters is maintaining the ethical integrity that makes us different from - and better than - ISIS and their ilk.

Celebrating an attack on innocent people is to embrace the same philosophy of extremism that makes ISIS so despicable to begin with, which is to me entirely unacceptable and the very worst possible defeat that we could suffer as a nation.

[Nephrology]

The number of those who actively seek to do violence against innocent people may be small, but the number of those who at least tacitly support such actions is right around 20% in the US and 30% worldwide.

1. I would be curious as to your source, in particular how they define and measure "tacit support"
2. Presuming your numbers are accurate, I would bet large amounts of US Dollars that the geographic and social distribution of these individuals is not homogenous (that is to say, it is far more likely that this car hurt more innocents than extremists)
3. What percentage of Brits do you think "tacitly support" the attack that is the subject of this thread? We've already seen some of it in this thread. Do they deserve to be murdered, too?

At what point do we say as a society that murdering other people for their beliefs is not OK?

At the end of the day, violence does not kill extremist ideology. It kills people. It is a crude tool that can be used effectively to solve certain problems while creating yet others. It does not make me feel good to know that the people who were maimed and killed in this attack share some pieces of culture/dress/holy text with another group of people that execute pilots on Youtube. I hate the wolf of extremism, not the sheep's clothing in which it lives.

[ReverendMeat]

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-app-a/

I misread it earlier though. 8% US and 11% Worldwide, not %20/%30. Oops.

As for the rest, I'm assuming those questions are rhetorical and not directed at me given I never said anybody deserved to be fucking murdered.

[TAZ]

I don't agree with that, at all...

But then... I haven't been in their situation.

Do YOU believe the USA or anyone else is justified in blowing up innocent arab children because their city has the bad luck of being currently occupied by ISIS (or insert your most hated arab/muslim extremist group here)?

Thanks for answering my question. I think we are on the same page.

WRT the USA or other western entities killing civilians during this WoT, I would say that I do not believe that we are justified in killing civilians.

In defense of the US and the West (over the last decade or so) we have gone out of our way to avoid civilian casualties. Gone are the days of carpet bombing entire cities or nuking large population centers to make a point. IMO even if ISIS established themselves as a recognized government with physical borders and we formally declare war on them we would still not do so. We have also gone about punishing those who have done horrible things to civilians. I'm not sure that we are comparing apples when we compare the US military effort to ISIS terror attacks, or terror attacks in general.

For me the biggest difference is the targeting. ISIS purposely targets civilians while the west targets military assets and manages to kill bystanders. I know the dead person is just as dead whether targeted or collateral, but there is a philosophical difference. Just how big I'm honestly not sure.

This is the vengeance mentality that, I believe, Glen mentioned. It's a rage filled psychopathy that gets out of hand very quick. We can understand what their motivations may be, but we should NEVER entertain the concept of its justifiability. Once we begin entertaining the concept that this psychopathic behavior is justified of one group it's a slippery slope till someone entertains the concept that it's justified for all groups. This is the slope that gets us how many mass Serbian and Croat graves out there. Or how many Tutsi bodies piled up. It's NOT what we want.

[Odin Bravo One]

Wow......

[Nephrology]

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-app-a/

I misread it earlier though. 8% US and 11% Worldwide, not %20/%30. Oops.

As for the rest, I'm assuming those questions are rhetorical and not directed at me given I never said anybody deserved to be fucking murdered.

Thanks for sharing the link, and my apologies for putting words in your mouth. I was reading these statistics in the context of the quoted comment from the first page.

[Peally]

What matters isn't whether or not this provides justification for ISIS. What matters is maintaining the ethical integrity that makes us different from - and better than - ISIS and their ilk.

Celebrating an attack on innocent people is to embrace the same philosophy of extremism that makes ISIS so despicable to begin with, which is to me entirely unacceptable and the very worst possible defeat that we could suffer as a nation.

I haven't beheaded anyone this week so I think I'm good to go. If saying retarded things on the internet makes us ISIS we were ISIS long before they ever existed.

[blues]

I haven't beheaded anyone this week so I think I'm good to go. If saying retarded things on the internet makes us ISIS we were ISIS long before they ever existed.

17469

"I was ISIS, when ISIS wasn't cool..."

...but what really comes to mind:


https://youtu.be/AuGFlP5Duuw

(apologies for taking a brief moment...)

[Nephrology]

I haven't beheaded anyone this week so I think I'm good to go. If saying retarded things on the internet makes us ISIS we were ISIS long before they ever existed.

You clearly are not ISIS and you have a right to think/feel/believe whatever you want. I may not agree with you, but I don't think that this somehow makes me better than you (or you worse than others). I just try to make a practice of appealing to our better angels in conversations like this because it seems like they so very rarely prevail in this day and age.

[Peally]

I just like being an asshole.

[Nephrology]

I just like being an asshole.

A man's gotta have hobbies.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Well, does your asshole come with a manual safety or a grip safety?

Unfortunately, from my reading two diametrically opposed nations, ideologies or civil fractions only come to peace when one is destroyed or both are utterly driven to the brink of mutual extinction. Are we there yet? Hopefully not.

[hufnagel]

17469

"I was ISIS, when ISIS wasn't cool..."



my mom probably has that album.

[blues]

my mom probably has that album.

I knew somebody would remember...

[Caballoflaco]

In reference to Glenn E. Meyer 's last post:

Or the conflict stabilizes at a level of violence that both sides deem acceptable. Weapons Man had some good posts on this; I'll try to find a link.

[hufnagel]

I knew somebody would remember...

I have foggy remembrances of being tortured by her and her sisters, on their variety TV show.

[JAD]

my mom probably has that album.

Where do you think blues got it?

[blues]

Where do you think blues got it?

I think we'd better keep moms, wives, fiancees, sisters, and daughters off limits to prevent jihad from taking place within our own peaceful confines.

(Though a couple of smartass replies crossed my mind...;))

[FNFAN]

Well, I guess you can (legitimately) make the argument that change is created at the individual level. Though I don't know how many folks seem to be on the "road to Shambala" these days...

George Gurdjieff also believed that change was only possible at an individual level. He was a pretty smart gent for being a mere teacher of dancing. His quotes have always rang true:

"The hypnotized masses, led by equally hypnotized leaders under the banner of preposterous slogans, must fall again and again into the ditch; leech-like ‘power-possessors’, under one convenient rubric or another, would suck the blood of subservient millions; the ‘burning question of the day’ would change again and again, but not the instability of human reason. Reform, on its own level, was futile: ‘There is no progress whatever . . . The outward form changes. The essence does not change . . . Modern civilization is based on violence and slavery and fine words.'

[HCM]

London van attack against Muslims highlights rise in anti-Muslim violence by right-wing extremists

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/19/london-van-attack-against-muslims-highlights-rise-in-anti-muslim-violence-by-right-wing-extremists.html

The Fox article mentions the recent murder of the Muslim girl in Reston, VA which has actually been determined to be the result of a road rage incident by an illegal alien rather than an anti Muslim bias attack.

ICE Places Detainer On Salvadoran Immigrant Suspected Of Murdering Muslim Teen


http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/19/authorities-refuse-to-disclose-immigration-status-of-el-salvadoran-immigrant-who-murdered-muslim-teen/

[blues]

George Gurdjieff also believed that change was only possible at an individual level. He was a pretty smart gent for being a mere teacher of dancing. His quotes have always rang true:

"The hypnotized masses, led by equally hypnotized leaders under the banner of preposterous slogans, must fall again and again into the ditch; leech-like ‘power-possessors’, under one convenient rubric or another, would suck the blood of subservient millions; the ‘burning question of the day’ would change again and again, but not the instability of human reason. Reform, on its own level, was futile: ‘There is no progress whatever . . . The outward form changes. The essence does not change . . . Modern civilization is based on violence and slavery and fine words.'

Boy, there's a name out of the past. Wow! Next you're gonna quote Ouspensky and really start impressing me! :cool:

[ca survivor]

That "lady from the local news" isn't doing much to keep this sort of thing from happening...at best, that's telling Muslims they're all responsible for ISIS...at worst it's a thinly veiled praise of vigilantism.

like Rambo said " they drew first blood" do you remember 9/11 ? was that our fault ? like Obama would said is "radical islam", they are ALL radicals, they want to behead every Christian or any one that doesn't agree with their barbaric belief and its been going around since the 12th century.

[TiroFijo]

If you wanted revenge for 9/11 , your aim was not very good...
And if you put yourself in their position, the western powers really 'started' (or stirred) troublein THEIR region in the last two centuries or so...
Only a simpleton would think that we are clean in this mess.

[JAD]

Man, relativism is just repugnant.

[45dotACP]

like Rambo said " they drew first blood" do you remember 9/11 ? was that our fault ? like Obama would said is "radical islam", they are ALL radicals, they want to behead every Christian or any one that doesn't agree with their barbaric belief and its been going around since the 12th century.
So you're totally cool with lumping women and children into the same "radical" category and condoning their murder. Awesome.

Do us all a favor and try not to drive by any mosques anytime soon...shouldn't be a problem I suspect. I'd struggle to claw myself out of that narrow box from which you view the world.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[TGS]

If you wanted revenge for 9/11 , your aim was not very good...
And if you put yourself in their position, the western powers really 'started' (or stirred) troublein THEIR region in the last two centuries or so...
Only a simpleton would think that we are clean in this mess.

Wahhabism would have non-believers being persecuted, and terrorism exported to the West regardless of Western involvement in their society.

You can visit some pretty remote places in the world with Muslim majorities......places where they likely have no comprehension of national borders or who the hell TiroFijo, TGS and JAD are......and they'll still cane the fuck out of you if you have alcohol in their village or show too much skin, and stone you to death if you're backpacking with your same sex partner and are discovered to be gay. If their boat on the way back to their island has to stop for repairs or bad weather in a Christian area, they have a habit of sacking villages before they leave.

That shit has fuck all to do with stirring trouble in "their" region (wherever that may be, it certainly isn't isolated to the levant or Mesopotamia), and more to do with an institutional teaching of intolerance.

I'm with JAD.


like Rambo said " they drew first blood" do you remember 9/11 ? was that our fault ? like Obama would said is "radical islam", they are ALL radicals, they want to behead every Christian or any one that doesn't agree with their barbaric belief and its been going around since the 12th century.

No, they're not all radicals. Comments like yours are what make it hard to have legitimate discussions about Islam, because the doctrinal intolerance is something that needs to be addressed but then you jump the shark and claim EVERYONE is a radical....which is ridiculous, and gets people polarized.

There's a respected member of this forum who is Muslim, a police officer, who has served his community faithfully and with all the honor his position commands. I take offense that you are calling him a radical.

And, for what it's worth......you're about 600 years off on your facts.

[Nephrology]

like Rambo said " they drew first blood" do you remember 9/11 ? was that our fault ? like Obama would said is "radical islam", they are ALL radicals, they want to behead every Christian or any one that doesn't agree with their barbaric belief and its been going around since the 12th century.

Lol, this is cartoonishly ignorant.

[critter]

like Rambo said " they drew first blood" do you remember 9/11 ? was that our fault ? like Obama would said is "radical islam", they are ALL radicals, they want to behead every Christian or any one that doesn't agree with their barbaric belief and its been going around since the 12th century.

Well, if we're speaking of Orthodox Islam (nothing radical about it -- it is exactly what it was originally designed to be), Christians and Jews (people of the book) may pay the jizya (extortion) and live in humiliation. I, on the other hand, would be killed immediately along with pagans/polytheists.

The fact that it *is* Orthodox Islam, as specifically detailed in the Qur'an, Hadith, Suna (roughly 20% deals with how to be a good Muslim, and 80% deals with how to treat the Kafir) makes it similar to knowingly importing immigrants with a percentage contaminated with a specific infectious disease only sans any test or quarantine procedure. Add to that the idiocy of after every attack, the western governments light up with the equivalent of "remember, not all of them have the disease, so there's no danger of the spread of this infection -- so don't talk about or criticize the infection, and definitely don't criticize the policies that bring the infection into your cities or you'll be branded a deadlydiseaseophobe, fined, or jailed for disease hate" --- and the 'retaliation' attacks such as the OP become obviously inevitable and predictable. Thus far retaliations are a drop in the bucket to where they're headed, a BB sized snowball teetering at the edge of Everest.