US Navy Shoots Down Syrian Warplane

[Chance]

From Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/18/us-led-coalition-shoots-down-pro-assad-fighter-jets-after-attack-on-partner-forces.html):



A U.S. Navy fighter jet shot down a Syrian government warplane after it attacked Washington-backed fighters near ISIS' de facto capital of Raqqa, the U.S.-led coalition said Sunday.

In a statement, the coalition headquarters in Iraq said that a F/A-18E Super Hornet shot down a Syrian Su-22 that had dropped bombs near positions held by the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).

The statement said coalition aircraft had "conducted a show of force" to turn back an attack by Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad's forces on the SDF in the town of Ja'Din, south of Tabqah.

The coalition said the shootdown took place "in accordance with rules of engagement and in collective self-defense of Coalition partnered forces."

The statement said "a number of SDF fighters" were wounded in the regime's attack, but did not specify further. The coalition also said that Russian officers had been contacted on a special "de-confliction" hotline in an effort to halt the assault.

Pretty reckless on behalf of the Syrians.

[Ed L]

It could have been a real problem if it was a Russian plane.

[GardoneVT]

It could have been a real problem if it was a Russian plane.

Russian AF still uses the Su-22?

[ranger]

Syrians or Russians probing to see what is the "new" rules of engagement

[TGS]

It could have been a real problem if it was a Russian plane.

I'm not aware of any variant of the Su-22 that would pose a significant threat to even a Super Hornet in beyond-rvisual-range combat. Got a reference?

[Nephrology]

When the enemy of my enemy is friends with my enemy... wait.... what do you swallow to get rid of an SU-22? Not another dog, right?

[scott]

The Su-17 is out of Russian service, and su-22 was only an export designation. So if it was an su-22 it was Syrian.

[TAZ]

I'm not aware of any variant of the Su-22 that would pose a significant threat to even a Super Hornet in beyond-rvisual-range combat. Got a reference?

I think he meant a political problem vs a technical problem.

[TGS]

I think he meant a political problem vs a technical problem.

Ah. Gotcha, thanks. ;)

[Chance]

It could have been a real problem if it was a Russian plane.

The information you can glean from a radar signature is amazing. I'm sure they knew exactly what they were firing at, and (at least according to Wikipedia) Syria's one of the few countries left that operates that aircraft.

I wonder if the Syrians knew who they were bombing. If they did, that's practically suicide.

[JSGlock34]

When was the last air to air victory for a US fighter before this? 20 years ago?

[Ed L]

In Kosvo--a Serbian Jet.

[Chance]

When was the last air to air victory for a US fighter before this? 20 years ago?

F-16 shot down a MiG-29 in Kosovo, 1999.

[Peally]

No time like the present for target practice.

[Trooper224]

http://m.memegen.com/z3burp.jpg

[txdpd]

That flight crew is going to need a hair cut, so they grease the sides of the heads to fit through the hatches on the ship. First shoot down in 18 years, I'm sure they'll be modest and let everyone know about it.

[45dotACP]

And roll the Kenny Loggins...

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[Arbninftry]

Good shootings! Hope it does not go any further. But, bottom line, you drop bombs on Green Berets, you get special treatment.

[NickS]

FA-18 Superhornet...

Think it used medium range missile? Short range?

Or did he go guns all over his ass?

[LockedBreech]

FA-18 Superhornet...

Think it used medium range missile? Short range?

Or did he go guns all over his ass?

Almost certainly AIM-9X Sidewinder or AIM-120 AMRAAM.


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[NickS]

Almost certainly AIM-9X Sidewinder or AIM-120 AMRAAM.


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My first comment when I heard about it was, "Bet he got an AMRAAM up his butt."

:)

[Trigger]

I'll bet there was a lot of command & control (C2) looking over the pilots shoulder to make sure he shot exactly the right SU-22 in exactly the right way. My bet is 9X for surgical accuracy and smaller warhead.

[Chance]

Fox News is reporting (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/20/breaking-news-armed-russian-jet-comes-within-5-feet-us-recon-jet.html) a Russian Su-27 came within five feet of an Air Force RC-135 flying over the Baltic Sea.

Ballsy move provoking an unarmed reconnaissance jet. :rolleyes: The Russians can't go toe-to-toe with US aviation assets, and they know it.

[El Cid]

F-16 shot down a MiG-29 in Kosovo, 1999.

I've been out of the AF for quite some time now, but I'm 99% sure it was an F-15C that got both MiG-29's.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?109348-Serbian-AF-Mig-29-shootdown-1999

In fact, I don't believe a U.S. F-16 has ever shot down an enemy aircraft. It's one of the many things I used to poke fun at "Lawn Dart" drivers for when I was on active duty. It really gets them upset when you point out the A-10 has more air to air kills than the F-16. lol! I also corrected them every time they called the F-16 a "viper" and reminded them they fly the Fighting Falcon. :D


Fox News is reporting (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/20/breaking-news-armed-russian-jet-comes-within-5-feet-us-recon-jet.html) a Russian Su-27 came within five feet of an Air Force RC-135 flying over the Baltic Sea.

Ballsy move provoking an unarmed reconnaissance jet. :rolleyes: The Russians can't go toe-to-toe with US aviation assets, and they know it.

Agreed - and I'm really hoping the CAOC has some F-22's in the air at all times.

[TGS]

Agreed

Are they far enough behind for it to actually be relevant?

The Chinese J-20 is already entering operational capacity, and the Sukhoi PAK FA isn't far behind as part of the overall military modernization program that's occurring.

Our monopoly on air supremacy isn't going to last a few more years........at least at face value.

[El Cid]

Are they far enough behind for it to actually be relevant?

The Chinese J-20 is already entering operational capacity, and the Sukhoi PAK FA isn't far behind as part of the overall military modernization program that's occurring.

Our monopoly on air supremacy isn't going to last a few more years........at least at face value.

I think it still matters. For how long is tough to say. The Chinese worry me. The Russians have money issues last I checked. They would be lucky to field a handful of whatever their newest fighter is and that's just the hardware issue. When you look at tactics and employment I suspect they are still decades behind us.

I worked with a guy in the AF who did an exchange with the Poles and got to fly MiG 29's with them. Their tactics (straight Soviet) were horrible beyond words. He and a RAF pilot agreed had we gone to war in Europe we would have run out of missiles killing them. Too much to type on my phone but he went into more detail.

[Drang]

That flight crew is going to need a hair cut, so they grease the sides of the heads to fit through the hatches on the ship. First shoot down in 18 years, I'm sure they'll be modest and let everyone know about it.

Did you actually just use the word "modest" when describing fighter pilots?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just wondering if Russian or Chinese recon planes made it to our coasts and flew close the 12 mile limit, would our pilots be tempted to loop around them and show off? We do fly all around them, not complaining about it. We see intercepts of Bears - are we sedate?

[GardoneVT]

Are they far enough behind for it to actually be relevant?

The Chinese J-20 is already entering operational capacity, and the Sukhoi PAK FA isn't far behind as part of the overall military modernization program that's occurring.

Our monopoly on air supremacy isn't going to last a few more years........at least at face value.

Indeed,it will last decades into the future.

Even if the bad guys had better tech (they don't), they don't have better tactics. It doesn't help that previous American engagements were hamstrung by politically correct ROE.

[CCT125US]

I hope the .gov can budget out the replacement missle.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Underestimating one's opponents is not wise. While I cannot vouch for any of this (being a FOG with no experience), the initial air to air combat in Viet Nam didn't go so well. Exercises against the Israelis and Indians haven't been easy for us. I read that the Germans figured out a way for Typhoons to have a chance against F-22s. To assume it will be easy, is a mistake. We underestimated the Japanese in WWII in the sky and sea at first.

[LockedBreech]

Underestimating one's opponents is not wise. While I cannot vouch for any of this (being a FOG with no experience), the initial air to air combat in Viet Nam didn't go so well. Exercises against the Israelis and Indians haven't been easy for us. I read that the Germans figured out a way for Typhoons to have a chance against F-22s. To assume it will be easy, is a mistake. We underestimated the Japanese in WWII in the sky and sea at first.

I agree with this. Our military power is formidable, but the USS Fitzgerald, one of the most advanced warships ever to sail, just got crippled by basic human error. Enemies in a shooting war can be surprisingly innovative. Just ask the British circa late 1700s.


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[Chance]

And now an F-15 has shot down an Iranian drone used by pro-Syrian forces. From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40344534):


A US jet has shot down an Iranian-made drone operated by forces backing the Syrian government in the south of the country, American officials say.

The drone was thought to be armed and threatening US-led coalition troops on the ground, officials said.

It was shot down near Tanf, an outpost of the US-led coalition.

This is the latest incident in the skies over Syria, after the US shot down a Syrian fighter plane on Sunday and another drone earlier this month.

The F-15 plane downed the drone around 00:30 on Tuesday (21:30 GMT Monday) north-east of Tanf, according to a US military statement.

[txdpd]

Did you actually just use the word "modest" when describing fighter pilots?

Only with the slightest hint of sarcasm. I think they'll be humble and stop reminding everyone about it, in about the next 9 years or so. Nothing excessive.

[MistWolf]

In fact, I don't believe a U.S. F-16 has ever shot down an enemy aircraft. It's one of the many things I used to poke fun at "Lawn Dart" drivers for when I was on active duty

You might want to do a little fact finding on that

[peterb]

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/israels-f-16-with-the-most-air-to-air-kills-ever-has-be-1685424102/1685670174

http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/the-combat-statistics-for-all-the-aircraft-currently-in-use.html

[Trigger]

<SNIP>
In fact, I don't believe a U.S. F-16 has ever shot down an enemy aircraft. It's one of the many things I used to poke fun at "Lawn Dart" drivers for when I was on active duty. It really gets them upset when you point out the A-10 has more air to air kills than the F-16. lol! I also corrected them every time they called the F-16 a "viper" and reminded them they fly the Fighting Falcon. :D
<SNIP>

For the 20+ years I flew them, we called the F-16 the Viper. As far as air-to-air kills, you need to ask Nordo North about that. He shot down a MiG-25 during Southern Watch. I've flown that jet, tail 778 a bunch of times myself. http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/airframe-profile/3150 I've also flown with Gen North when he was COMPACAF about 18 years after that kill. He told me the story himself in the squadron bar at Osan.

[Chance]

Speaking of F-16's, one just crashed (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2017/06/21/pilot-ejects-burning-f-16-carrying-ammunition-crash-houston-airport) in Houston. Pilot's safe.

[El Cid]

You might want to do a little fact finding on that
I did some limited searching but didn’t see anything. Freely admit I could be wrong, and from other posts here it appears that was indeed the case.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/israels-f-16-with-the-most-air-to-air-kills-ever-has-be-1685424102/1685670174

http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/the-combat-statistics-for-all-the-aircraft-currently-in-use.html
First link doesn’t count – I said “U.S” F-16’s. I knew other nations had used them in ATA combat. ;)
That second link though is very cool! Exactly the kind of information I was trying to find – thanks!



For the 20+ years I flew them, we called the F-16 the Viper. As far as air-to-air kills, you need to ask Nordo North about that. He shot down a MiG-25 during Southern Watch. I've flown that jet, tail 778 a bunch of times myself. http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/airframe-profile/3150 I've also flown with Gen North when he was COMPACAF about 18 years after that kill. He told me the story himself in the squadron bar at Osan.
Oh, I’m well aware the pilots call the F-16 the Viper. And I’ve witnessed the “viper mafia” in action, but that’s a story for another day. I didn’t realize someone splashed a Foxbat in one – that’s pretty cool! And a D model to boot. Thanks for sharing that.

[rauchman]

This all begs the question, did Syria/Russia know US backed forces were there? Possibly a better question is, why are we there?

I have to believe a point is coming in the very near future (it may have already happened) where conflicting interests will collide on a large scale in Syria.

[LockedBreech]

[edit] nevermind, I like to avoid politics on this board

[Chance]

This all begs the question, did Syria/Russia know US backed forces were there?

More than anything, it seems to suggest Russia doesn't have the degree of control over Syria a lot of people suspect it does. The Russians are provocateurs, but they're not dumb enough to risk that confrontation. The US military is not a civilian airliner.

[Chance]

Exercises against the Israelis and Indians haven't been easy for us. I read that the Germans figured out a way for Typhoons to have a chance against F-22s.

Can you please cite the origin of these claims? Under no circumstances am I prepared to admit that a country with the population of Connecticut, and a country that's still considered to be "developing," somehow managed to out-class the most well-equipped, well-trained, and well-supported aviation fighting force in the world.

I also don't acknowledge the validity of the Germans figuring out a way to "have a chance against F-22s." If the people conducting the experiment are atomized, they're not going to be running many more experiments.

Further, if our foes can adapt, so can we. And we have a long track-record of doing so successfully during war time.

[Wondering Beard]

Can you please cite the origin of these claims? Under no circumstances am I prepared to admit that a country with the population of Connecticut, and a country that's still considered to be "developing," somehow managed to out-class the most well-equipped, well-trained, and well-supported aviation fighting force in the world.

I also don't acknowledge the validity of the Germans figuring out a way to "have a chance against F-22s." If the people conducting the experiment are atomized, they're not going to be running many more experiments.

Further, if our foes can adapt, so can we. And we have a long track-record of doing so successfully during war time.

I wish I could link it but a year or two ago I did come across an article stating that during exercizes, the Indian pilots had given our guys a hell of a hard time.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I read it and my memory is the source. Folks can google it. IIRC - the Israelis had more flight time simulated combat practice and did quite well. The Indians found that flying their Sukhois they did quite well. There was a touch of controversy that the USAF maybe have exaggerated their prowess in order to push for more toys. The Germans - read that in one of the international air force mags that said they found that a group of Typhoons pooling their radar could the stealth of F-22s.

I got other things to do as we are on the road than google a lot. If it is fake news, send my apologies to Donald.

[Chance]

I got other things to do as we are on the road than google a lot. If it is fake news, send my apologies to Donald.

I'm not calling anybody out, I'm just asking for references. The Air Force keeps insisting the A-10 isn't relevant, so pardon me if I view their conclusions with skepticism.

I would totally link a .gif from 'The Big Lebowski' here, but for the freaking life of me, I can't figure out how to do that.

Here's the link I want to embed: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjT6OuMytLUAhWB4SYKHVV8BAcQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffangirlfables.blogspot.com%2F&psig=AFQjCNF4BJzhToDmvq8ZR5Haz6lX-O5prw&ust=1498259590062521

Mods?

[Robinson]

The Typhoon seems to be able to hold its own in a dogfight against the F-22, mostly because the Raptor sacrifices a bit of performance for the sake of stealth. In a real fight, each would be deadly dangerous to the other and a combination of tactics and training would be determining factors. But that is a totally unqualified opinion on my part.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

After we get done flying cross country and I chill out I will look it up

[Trigger]

The Typhoon seems to be able to hold its own in a dogfight against the F-22, mostly because the Raptor sacrifices a bit of performance for the sake of stealth. In a real fight, each would be deadly dangerous to the other and a combination of tactics and training would be determining factors. But that is a totally unqualified opinion on my part.

The Raptor has programmable exhaust nozzles, which give it a huge advantage in BFM. However, the capability of a weapon system in the air-to-air arena is much more that just its BFM turning performance. Sensors, SA, visibility, maneuverability, networks - they all make a difference.

[Peally]

We'll never see an air to air duel engagement between a modern F-__ and Su-__ /MiG-__ with all 5 million other combat factors being equal so it's not a very useful question beyond internet argument fun.

[scjbash]

I wish I could link it but a year or two ago I did come across an article stating that during exercizes, the Indian pilots had given our guys a hell of a hard time.

I read the same. I'll see if I can find it.

[LockedBreech]

We'll never see an air to air duel engagement between a modern F-__ and Su-__ /MiG-__ with all 5 million other combat factors being equal so it's not a very useful question beyond internet argument fun.

That has been posited several times since the late 1960s but even with stealth systems and advanced anti-air, in a prolonged combat situation over a fixed point like a city it is certainly still a possibility.

I agree it has become much less probable and that stealth/detection/cyber is the new field of sea and air warfare.


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[Peally]

That has been posited several times since the late 1960s but even with stealth systems and advanced anti-air, in a prolonged combat situation over a fixed point like a city it is certainly still a possibility.

I agree it has become much less probable and that stealth/detection/cyber is the new field of sea and air warfare.


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It could definitely happen for sure, but the chances of it are really slim and I expect it to not happen in my lifetime. The bears of the world aren't wild about poking each other beyond posturing and chest thumping, and when it comes to fighting foolhardy third world pilots we tend to bring 50 hammers per single nail.

[Robinson]

It could definitely happen for sure, but the chances of it are really slim and I expect it to not happen in my lifetime. The bears of the world aren't wild about poking each other beyond posturing and chest thumping, and when it comes to fighting foolhardy third world pilots we tend to bring 50 hammers per single nail.

We still try to fill the air superiority role for a reason. If you don't have it, it become a weakness an enemy might exploit.

[Robinson]

The Raptor has programmable exhaust nozzles, which give it a huge advantage in BFM. However, the capability of a weapon system in the air-to-air arena is much more that just its BFM turning performance. Sensors, SA, visibility, maneuverability, networks - they all make a difference.

So you were a F-16 pilot right? First off, that is damned impressive in itself and thank you for your service. I've always thought the F-16 is a cool fighter ever since it won out against the YF-17.

It seems every so often the military needs to relearn lessons from the past, such as retaining dogfighting ability in fighters for engagements within visual range. I am curious -- how would fourth generation fighters like the F-15 and F-16 perform in aerial combat against the Typhoon? They've already pretty much proven themselves against the latest Russian fighters.

[Peally]

We still try to fill the air superiority role for a reason. If you don't have it, it become a weakness an enemy might exploit.

I'm more talking about 1 on 1 dogfights between trained first world pilots. I still believe filling that combat role is crucial.

[Robinson]

I'm more talking about 1 on 1 dogfights between trained first world pilots.

Yeah if that ever happens again it means we are in a pretty scary situation.

[Ed L]

I wish I could link it but a year or two ago I did come across an article stating that during exercizes, the Indian pilots had given our guys a hell of a hard time.

Here we go:

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f15-su30-1.html

[Chance]

Here we go:

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f15-su30-1.html

That article is 15 years old and discusses a specific maneuver performed during simulations in which both aircraft were flown by US pilots.

[Wondering Beard]

That article is 15 years old and discusses a specific maneuver performed during simulations in which both aircraft were flown by US pilots.

I believe the one I mentioned was about exercises involving Indian pilots and was more recent.

But I could be wrong.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

India: https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-2004-results/

RAF - http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/596770/RAF-planes-beaten-Russian-Sukhoi-jets-Indian-pilots-training-exercise

Israel - http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=7282


Typhoons vs. F-22s https://defenseissues.net/2012/10/20/cleaning-up-red-flag-alaska-f-22-vs-typhoon-debate/

The validity of these excercises are outside my expertise by a long shot. Just referencing what my memory suggested. It does indicate though that we shouldn't take opponents for granted.

[Trigger]

So you were a F-16 pilot right? First off, that is damned impressive in itself and thank you for your service. I've always thought the F-16 is a cool fighter ever since it won out against the YF-17.

It seems every so often the military needs to relearn lessons from the past, such as retaining dogfighting ability in fighters for engagements within visual range. I am curious -- how would fourth generation fighters like the F-15 and F-16 perform in aerial combat against the Typhoon? They've already pretty much proven themselves against the latest Russian fighters.

Thank you for your kind words. Flying the Viper for 20 years was a blast. The people I worked with were/are truly great. A dream job that I would pay to do.

Asking about Eagles/Vipers against Typhoons, or Raptors in the mix is a complex question, and sees much arguing and whiskey in the bar. To simplify, I want to maximize my advantages and minimize my disadvantages in a fight. That might be my airframe, (I want to stay fast or get slow, go one circle or two circle at the merge, strive to be look up or look down, etc...) or it may get be against the pilot him/herself. The adversary might be know to try certain maneuvers, or be unable to counter other maneuvers. So I will fight the airframe or the pilot, whichever gives me the most advantage. This is a thinking mans game, but it is also brutal and unforgiving.

As for the specifics of the Typhoons advantages due to newer technology than a Viper or and Eagle, it all depends. Do I have AWACS, GCI, a clean air picture, long range decs? The IRST has certain advantages, so does a datalink. Each airplane has unique weapons and sensors which have strengths and weaknesses. If you exploit your strengths and minimize your weaknesses, you will likely triumph. Fortune favors the bold.

[1911nerd]

Almost certainly AIM-9X Sidewinder or AIM-120 AMRAAM.


http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/07/31/report-navy-pilot-breaks-silence-shooting-down-syrian-fighter.html

[LockedBreech]

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/07/31/report-navy-pilot-breaks-silence-shooting-down-syrian-fighter.html

Wow, the sidewinder missed an SU-22. Surprising.


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[Glenn E. Meyer]

AIM-120 isn't so hot nowadays.

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/2017/07/27/dod-slashes-amraam-missile-buy-as-raytheon-struggles-with-tech-refresh/

[Trigger]

I trust 'em both

[peterb]

Folks interested in the details of air combat tactics might enjoy "Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert L. Shaw, from the Naval Institute Press.
https://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599

Published 1985, so it doesn't cover the most recent technology, but still an excellent read.