US Rep. Steve Scalise, at least 2 others shot at GOP baseball practice

[ssb]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/14/virginia-gop-baseball-practice-shooting-multiple-people-shot.html

Early, but multiple people including House Majority Whip Steve Scalise have been shot at a GOP baseball practice early this morning.

[RoyGBiv]

Watching the reporting on TV.

What's the chance that sanity will prevail and the Reps will decide the best course of action would be to stop taking away guns from the good guys, so maybe next time there'd be someone other than the (lucky they were there) Cops to shoot back?

/rhetorical

[breakingtime91]

Some reports are saying that gunman asked if they were democrats or republicans before shooting at them... Imagine my shock if this ends up being a SJW who finally lived up to the democrats rhetoric. I am so pissed off right now...

[Guinnessman]

Prayers for Rep Scalise and his family during this time. Any official word on the shooter's condition?

[wmu12071]

Some reports are saying that gunman asked if they were democrats or republicans before shooting at them... Imagine my shock if this ends up being a SJW who finally lived up to the democrats rhetoric. I am so pissed off right now...

Maybe I think a lot more of protection details than I should but how would a protection details give someone enough time to ask if they were Rs or Ds?

[breakingtime91]

Maybe I think a lot more of protection details than I should but how would a protection details give someone enough time to ask if they were Rs or Ds?

he had no gun when he asked, found out it was republicans, came back with a rifle.

[TGS]

Maybe I think a lot more of protection details than I should but how would a protection details give someone enough time to ask if they were Rs or Ds?

Depends on the scope, depth and purpose of the detail.

This one......absolutely not. It's an open baseball field used regularly by congress members.

[warpedcamshaft]

Sickening... I hope Scalise makes it through.

[wmu12071]

he had no gun when he asked, found out it was republicans, came back with a rifle.

Got it. I was imagining someone walking up asking then shooting and on the next person.

[Palmguy]

Maybe I think a lot more of protection details than I should but how would a protection details give someone enough time to ask if they were Rs or Ds?

The protection detail was for Scalise, as he is House leadership. There are reports that Rep Jeff Duncan left practice early, and as he was leaving was approached and asked what party was practicing.

[Clay]

At some point maybe people will realize we are in a time of war.

My money is on it being a wacko lefty. We'll be hearing cries of gun bans within the hour.

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[Shellback]

Two law enforcement sources told CNN the shooter, who is in police custody, has been taken to a hospital.

Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul, who was at the practice, told CNN "it would have been a massacre" had Capitol Police not been present.

"Nobody would have survived without the Capitol Hill police," Paul said on CNN. "It would have been a massacre without them."

Arizona Sen. Jeff Flake added that he saw a member of Scalise's security detail return fire on the gunman for what felt like 10 minutes, even though the police officer was wounded in the leg.

"50 (shots) would be an understatement, I'm quite sure," Flake said when asked about the total amount of gunfire, including police returning fire...

[warpedcamshaft]

Roger Williams was also shot.

[warpedcamshaft]

At some point maybe people will realize we are in a time of war.

My money is on it being a wacko lefty. We'll be hearing cries of gun bans within the hour.


You label your opposition as "NAZI's" and pretty soon anything is justified.

[StraitR]

Eventually, this "Social Justice" thing will catch up to those who currently embrace it.

[Sensei]

I'm thinking that this incident will change the Congressional approach to PERSEC. A bunch of Congresscritters in the open at a field known to be frequented by government leadership deserves more security than a couple of Capitol Police armed with handguns. Moreover, Rand Paul made it sound like the only reason they had armed security was because the Majority Whip was present.

[Chance]

At least five people, including House Majority Whip Steve Scalise, have been shot at a practice session of the Republican baseball team. They were evidently supposed to be playing a charity event today Thursday.

Scalise, being a high ranking member of Congress, had a security detail with him. Otherwise, this could have turned into a slaughter.

The shooter is in custody. My understanding is that none of the injuries were life-threatening.

ETA: BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40275055):


A top US Republican was among five people who were shot and wounded by a gunman during baseball practice in Virginia.

House of Representatives Majority Whip Steve Scalise was hit but expected to survive, witnesses said.

Police in the upmarket Washington DC suburb of Alexandria said they were investigating a "multiple shooting" and a suspect was in custody.

The lawmakers were practising for a game between Democrats and Republicans.

The annual congressional ballgame was scheduled to be played on Thursday at Nationals Park, home of Major League Baseball franchise the Washington Nationals.

....

Kentucky Senator Rand Paul told Fox News: "I do believe without the Capitol Hill police it would have been a massacre.

"We had no defence at all. The field was basically a killing field."

He said they were lucky that Mr Scalise was present because he has a security detail owing to his congressional seniority.

....

Mo Brooks, an Alabama Republican, told CNN he was on third base during the baseball game when he saw Mr Scalise, who was on second base, shot.

He said Mr Scalise had a bullet hole in his calf, and was saying: "I'm OK, I'm OK."

Mr Brooks said everyone on the field scattered as 50 to 100 shots were fired.

He said a gunfight had ensued between the shooter and the congressmen's police security detail, who were armed with pistols.

CNN reports that two police officers were also shot.

NPR reported the shooter was a white male. The Congressional teams had been practicing at that field over the period of several years, so it's entirely plausible they were target by some anti-government wacko.

[StraitR]

Edited* Original post was link to this thread, which has now been merged.

[Trukinjp13]

I am afraid that this is going to throw a bunch of Republicans on the anti band wagon.


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[TDA]

Well, there are a bunch of things that could happen next, but broadly speaking our legislators seem more likely to double down on what they're doing already than to decide it's time to finally switch off the election year propaganda machine and back away from the racist Russian Nazi bigot conspiracy stuff. I mean, why stop whipping people into a frenzy as long as there's some possibility of nerfing them?

[JV_]

Roger Williams was also shot.

He was injured diving in to a (concrete) dugout.

[warpedcamshaft]

He was injured diving in to a (concrete) dugout.

Ah, gotcha... A couple of news sites were saying he was shot.

[Trukinjp13]

Be interesting to see how this shakes out and what this dudes motive is. Nice part was that the police rolled up and returned fire. Vs the attacks overseas you could see pics of them running.


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[JV_]

Ah, gotcha... A couple of news sites were saying he was shot.

I saw them as well. Reports incorrectly morphed from being injured to being shot.

[JV_]

the police rolled up

The police were already there. Rep Scalise has a security detail from the USCP. It's because he's part of leadership.

[Chance]

I'm thinking that this incident will change the Congressional approach to PERSEC.

If I were a congressman, I would be working under the assumption that everyone wanted to kill me all the time.

[StraitR]

Fox is now saying the gunman is dead. That's unfortunate.

ETA: Fox interviewing witness, who seems pretty competent in his wording, is claiming he saw an "AK-47 type weapon with curved shaped magazine. AK-47's have a very distinct silhouette". Sounds like an LEO or ex-military based on terminology used and AAR type detailed responses to questions. He actively moved others away from gunfire to "cover".

[Peally]

Fox is now saying the gunman is dead. That's unfortunate.

That's the only acceptable outcome.

[Duelist]

That's the only acceptable outcome.

Questioning a suspect, finding out if he acted alone, etc, would seem a favorable outcome.

The trial would be a circus, of course.

[StraitR]

That's the only acceptable outcome.

The final outcome, sure. This is a big deal, another act of social justice, and I'd prefer to see somebody stand trial, answer, and pay for it with their life. We need examples, not martyrs.

[Sensei]

If I were a congressman, I would be working under the assumption that everyone wanted to kill me all the time.

Is it bad that I'm not a Congressman but still operate under that assumption? ;)

[JV_]

James T. Hodgkinson of Belleville, Illinois

Rabid Bernie supporter

[TGS]

Ammunition expenditure seems to have been large, as predicted.

This should serve as a wake-up call to close protection officers who've taken a very lackadaisical approach to their tactics and load-out. "Oh, nothing will happen. It's only a low-threat detail." "What do you need more than 1 spare mag for? If I need more than my Glock 26 then we're fucked anyways, so it's useless."

This incident is going to be dissected like you can't imagine among agencies with protective responsibilities.

[StraitR]

James T. Hodgkinson of Belleville, Illinois

Rabid Bernie supporter

You could say that...

https://www.facebook.com/jthodgkinson

[JV_]

He has another page too.

[Chance]

From Dallas Morning News (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2017/06/14/several-people-reportedly-struck-shooting-congressional-baseball-practice-including-gop-whip):


The Washington Post identified the shooter as James Hodgkinson of Belleville, Ill., according to law enforcement officials, a 66-year-old who owns a home inspection business. He has posted anti-Trump comments online, including a comment on Facebook when he signed a petition demanding the president's impeachment that "Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co."

House members gathered late morning for a closed-door security briefing with the House sergeant at arms. Capitol Police Chief Matthew Verderosa said his officers were in good condition.


This is my surprised face.

[StraitR]

JV_ I don't really do FB, it popped up when I right-click googled his name in your post, I just shared for others. The comments on that page are going nuts though.

[JV_]

https://www.facebook.com/james.hodgkinson.568

[Totem Polar]

A Bernie supporter, of all things. I guess that explains the alleged 10 percent hit rate. (Too soon?)

Seriously though, we are in a bad place when half the country hates the other half enough to make actions like this seep out into the mainstream.

[GardoneVT]

Among many other lessons to note, a prominent one is the death of the "low risk detail".

No one can strap on a pistol for work and assume its for show anymore. Everyone from the beat cop working in the grittiest ghetto to the guy on a "cush" detail guarding the Mayor's plant collection must be prepared to use force.

[LtDave]

Given what appear to be the relatively minor wounds received from the gunman's rifle. I'm willing to place a bet that he was armed with something along the lines of a Ruger 10/22 with a 25 round mag. He obviously wasn't a very good shot and/or was quickly engaged and distracted by the Capitol Police. Good work even though their principal got shot.

[Trukinjp13]

No surprise being a liberal Bernie supporter.


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[Jeep]

This should serve as a wake-up call to close protection officers who've taken a very lackadaisical approach to their tactics and load-out. "Oh, nothing will happen. It's only a low-threat detail." "What do you need more than 1 spare mag for? If I need more than my Glock 26 then we're fucked anyways, so it's useless."

This incident is going to be dissected like you can't imagine among agencies with protective responsibilities. .

Yep, it is a shame but it is going to change a lot of things. A lot more folks are going to be hired for protective details.

[mmc45414]

Fox interviewing witness, who seems pretty competent in his wording, is claiming he saw an "AK-47 type weapon with curved shaped magazine. AK-47's have a very distinct silhouette".
17334
Tired to presume it was automatic weapons fire, he corrected them "I did not say there was automatic weapons fire, I said I saw an AK type weapon, I did not hear any automatic fire."

[Trukinjp13]

The police were already there. Rep Scalise has a security detail from the USCP. It's because he's part of leadership.

My point was that they got the job done. Overseas they just ran away. From terrorists who did not even have guns. It shows the difference in mindset and how much our leos put on the line to protect and serve.


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[Jeep]

No surprise being a liberal Bernie supporter.


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I'm not a Bernie fan at all (or any kind of liberal and lefty), but most of his supporters wouldn't dream of this, I think. It is just a small minority of lefties, whose hate index has skyrocketed into crazy land as they joined "The Resistance."

The question is how many other lefties are going to come out of the closet and indicate that this is "understandable" or "they had it coming." Let's hope that it isn't many.

[Jeep]

My point was that they got the job done. Overseas they just ran away. From terrorists who did not even have guns. It shows the difference in mindset and how much our leos put on the line to protect and serve.


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Apparently one of the LEOs was a black male Capitol cop, who was himself hit but kept attacking and put the gunman down. If that story is correct it says a lot about the Capitol police, and even more about the guy.

[StraitR]

Tired to presume it was automatic weapons fire, he corrected them "I did not say there was automatic weapons fire, I said I saw an AK type weapon, I did not hear any automatic fire."

Yeah, I really enjoyed when he corrected the interviewer. The guy was well spoken and made for a good witness. He seemed to choose his words intentionally, only commenting on what he saw and what he did, correcting any misquotes and refusing to comment on speculation or emotional drama.

[blues]

Trying to conflate this event with supporters of any given party or candidate is just wrong in my estimation. I don't understand this need or rush to jump on bandwagons. There are more than enough jackasses and miscreants of every stripe to go around. Last I checked no particular group had a monopoly.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I agree. The increase in political fragmentation into separate hateful tribes can only push folks over the edge. It is unfortunate that some will look to use this promote their tribe being better than another in a hateful way.

[StraitR]

I'm not a Bernie fan at all (or any kind of liberal and lefty), but most of his supporters wouldn't dream of this, I think. It is just a small minority of lefties, whose hate index has skyrocketed into crazy land as they joined "The Resistance."

The question is how many other lefties are going to come out of the closet and indicate that this is "understandable" or "they had it coming." Let's hope that it isn't many.

I think it depends on how many more Madonna's publicly say they want to burn the White House, how many more Kathy Griffin's hold up bloody masks of our President, how many more NY theater productions are spun to depict the assassination of our President, how long MSM continues to perpetuate the madness as headline news, and ultimately how long we as a country choose to tolerate it all.

The more outrageous the actions of those who oppose this presidency become, the more distinct the line in the sand becomes and otherwise quiet and typically non-political people (like me) slowly start to feel a need to stand up and be heard. I give you President Trump as proof that this is already happening.

[TGS]

"The Capitol security guy, who had already been shot, who helped take down the shooter, came limping toward us in the outfield, totally ignoring his own wounds, to check on the person he was primarily responsible for (Steve Scalise).

"We insisted that he go back and get attended to because he was bleeding, but he was doing his job. And I tell you, those two security details, those two Capitol police officers, they showed incredible bravery -- pistols against a rifle -- from a 90- to 120-feet distance. As you know, that kind of distance heavily favors the rifle. One of our security detail, from what I understand, was shot in the chest.

[Trukinjp13]

My deal with the Bernie supporters is they have been violent since the beginning. The flag burning violent protesters. Were Bernie supporters. They usually also hated Clinton. I am just afraid that stuff like this will breed more.

It is sad, that we not only have to prepare for isis attacks but also our own home grown hate.


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[okie john]

I think it depends on how many more Madonna's publicly say they want to burn the White House, how many more Kathy Griffin's hold up bloody masks of our President, how many more NY theater productions are spun to depict the assassination of our President, how long MSM continues to perpetuate the madness as headline news, and ultimately how long we as a country choose to tolerate it all.

The more outrageous the actions of those who oppose this presidency become, the more distinct the line in the sand becomes and otherwise quiet and typically non-political people (like me) slowly start to feel a need to stand up and be heard. I give you President Trump as proof that this is already happening.

This. Exactly.


Okie John

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Both political sides have produced their violent nuts. Both sides have media crap spewing out all the time.

If you think your political side is all peaches and cream, you are wearing blinders.

[Caballoflaco]

Both sides trying to claim we're at war with each other needs to chill the fuck out. Because if you really want a war that's how you get ya one.

If we were in a civil war you'd know it by the hunger in your children's eyes as they starve to death from famine and the stench of mass graves. Everybody needs to picture that before shit ends up getting real stupid real fast in this country.

[blues]

I think that TGS should drop Madonna and Kathy Griffin off (unceremoniously) in the middle east on his next sojourn. And that goes for the cast of Hamilton or any other theatrical group that feels that the democratic principles or Constitution of the U.S. are unsuitable for their personal and political requirements.

Eventually, it may prove a safer alternative at the rate things are going.

[Peally]

I'd dig up the Obama doll lynch scenes but we all know retards are everywhere on both sides. However, I don't recall known public figures doing such extreme things on the conservative side of the tard battle ala that Griffin dumbass. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

Considering the left is the default political group for most non-political people I'm sure it attracts more idiots than usual as well just via statistics.

[JV_]

Apparently one of the LEOs was a black male Capitol cop, who was himself hit but kept attacking and put the gunman down.

Apparently he was walking around after it all ended, as if he wasn't injured.

[LOKNLOD]

Last I checked no particular group had a monopoly.

True, but certain groups seem to be working harder than others to increase market share.

Still, having the luxury of time and distance from the event, I'd like to know more before making judgements.

Like others, I'm concerned that feeling like a threat is towards them, may galvanize the quiet cowardice of some of our (R)-wearing congress critters into open hoplophobia. It will certainly be fodder for the (D)-team.

Meanwhile I hope all involved heal up and commend the folks who did the work to stop it.

[blues]

I find it off-putting that so much mention needs to be made of the fact that the officer referred to above is black. Should we expect greater or lesser service, dedication or devotion from an officer of one racial or ethnic group than another?

This is exactly why I hate the whole damned hyphenated American labels. I'm an American. If you're an American and you have a role to play or job to do, I expect that you will do it regardless of the color of your skin or some other accident of birth. Period.

That officer deserves our praise because he rose to the occasion when he and others were in harm's way. The fact that he is black or anything else, (straight, gay, Christian, Muslim, what have you), is irrelevant.

We will never make any progress as long as our focus is so myopic.

[Jeep]

Trying to conflate this event with supporters of any given party or candidate is just wrong in my estimation. I don't understand this need or rush to jump on bandwagons. There are more than enough jackasses and miscreants of every stripe to go around. Last I checked no particular group had a monopoly.

I agree. But it is also the case that political rhetoric, especially extreme political rhetoric can tend to push somewhat unstable individuals over the edge. In addition, somewhat unstable individuals can be attracted to such rhetoric.

For example, this guy seems to have been a long-time lefty of somewhat extreme views. But he was able to campaign for Bernie last year, and apparently he seemed normal enough.

Since Trump's nomination, though, left-wing political rhetoric has turned south. At first he was just an orange faced baboon, or something. Then, however, he was called a racist, then a white supremacist, then a fascist then an actual Nazi. We has a troll on here a couple of months back who kept talking about the "eerie parallels" between Trump and Hitler." Now in fact there are none--only the most fevered mind could come up with that nonsense. And only the most fevered mind would publicly talk about blowing up the White House (Madonna) or sponsor a play portraying the President of the United States as Julius Caesar, so the crowds could applaud his assassination (the New York Times).

Politics can create fevered minds, though. Most of those people later come out of the fever and might be a bit embarrassed by it.

The trouble is, for people who are unstable, and especially if they have few support mechanisms, they aren't able to recognize that the fever is just a fever. Instead, they are convinced that Trump really is Hitler and unless they take action Trump will commit genocide. My guess is that this guy fits that profile.

It would be a really good idea if the political left used this episode as a reason to modulate their speech. They can attack Trump all they want for whatever--but implicitly suggesting that assassinating him would be good clean fun goes too far.

The other side is capable of going too far, also, but I think right now the political left is the hyperbole queen du jour.

[Jeep]

Both political sides have produced their violent nuts. Both sides have media crap spewing out all the time.

If you think your political side is all peaches and cream, you are wearing blinders.

Yes, but I'm not aware of any conservative newspaper, that, for example, sponsored the production of a play insinuating that Obama should be assassinated, and right now the political left is taking the cake for stupid--and dangerous--hyperbole. They really need to cool down and stop pretending they are victims or the brave "resistance" or whatever. They'll be entitled to claim victimhood the moment the IRS starts auditing their tax returns. Until then it is just silly--and potentially dangerous--play acting.

[Amp]

Scalise shot: What the Virginia attack should teach us - the Second Amendment is not the problem, in fact it can save lives:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/14/scalise-shot-what-virginia-attack-should-teach-us-second-amendment-is-not-problem-in-fact-it-can-save-lives.html

[AMC]

Those two Capital Police Officers are studs. End of story. I don't care if they turn out to both be ladies.....they are STUDS. They stood and delivered under fire to protect those they swore an oath to safeguard. I hear swelling heroic music composed by John Williams when I think of them! And the learning point for the pistolero crowd here is....a trained, willing individual armed with a pistol can overcome an asshole with a rifle. Physical courage, decisiveness, and skill at arms are still needed in this age of promoting "Law Encouragement".

[okie john]

Is CCW legal in Alexandria, or is it like DC?


Okie John

[Kyle Reese]

Is CCW legal in Alexandria, or is it like DC?


Okie John
100% legal, in accordance with Virginia laws. I lived there for five years.

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[okie john]

100% legal, in accordance with Virginia laws. I lived there for five years.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

Thanks.


Okie John

[Jeep]

By the way, here is what a Washington Post reporter named Malcolm Harris tweeted this morning about Scalise:

"Hearing 'David Duke without the baggage' Steve Scalise is stable, but a lot of Americans die from hospital errors so keep crossing your fing"

No doubt that is what passes for clever in a thoroughly left-wing newsroom filed with young left-wing reporters trying to one-up each other, but it shows just how deep the problem is on the left right now. They are running a very high fever, and neither know it nor know that it can cause their less-stable allies to crack and do something like this.

The mainstream media needs to calm, down, sober up, and above all grow up and become real journalists again.

[Rich@CCC]

Fox is now saying the gunman is dead. That's unfortunate.

ETA: Fox interviewing witness, who seems pretty competent in his wording, is claiming he saw an "AK-47 type weapon with curved shaped magazine. AK-47's have a very distinct silhouette". Sounds like an LEO or ex-military based on terminology used and AAR type detailed responses to questions. He actively moved others away from gunfire to "cover".

A local "News" broadcast stated that the rifle the gunman used was an "M4 Assault Rifle" and showed a picture of a 16" AR15. The kept repeating that the M4 was designed as a light weapon for enhanced mobility and high rate of fire.

[NEPAKevin]

They stood and delivered under fire to protect those they swore an oath to safeguard. I hear swelling heroic music composed by John Williams when I think of them!

Or something by Hans Zimmer or maybe Thomas Bergersen.

[Jeep]

As for the current crazy political rhetoric coming from the left, here is a piece posted on Huffington Post, which it has since taken down. As you can see, the looney-tunes author (one who apparently is normally allowed to post on the Huffington Post, wants Trump and all leading Republicans . . . um . . . executed. For treason. No kidding. This is the kind of thing that is widely circulating on the left these days.

"Impeachment Is No Longer Enough; Donald Trump Must Face Justice

Impeachment and removal from office are only the first steps; for America to be redeemed, Donald Trump must be prosecuted for treason and — if convicted in a court of law — executed.

Donald Trump has been President of the United States for just shy of six months now. I think that most of us among the electorate knew that his presidency would be a relative disaster, but I am not sure how many among us expected the catastrophe our nation now faces.

The sad thing is that I don’t even have to run through a laundry list of his wrongdoings and cite a litany of sources. Any quick Internet search or flip of the TV to a credible news source will run down the most recent scandal before the next commercial break. In just these short few months, Donald Trump has managed to gut environmental protections; sign two executive orders attempting to implement a travel ban on Muslim-majority countries; fire the former head of the FBI specifically for investigating the Trump campaign ties to Russia; isolate the United States from much of the rest of the world; and submit a budget which would eviscerate social programs designed to help the worst off among us. And these are just the things I can think of off the top of my head, without even conducting a search.

There is very little doubt left that Trump and his team colluded with members of the Russian government to try and rig the election in his favor, even if the Russians did not outright hack the voting process itself; while we may not yet have 100% incontrovertible proof of their collusion, the administration’s attempts to hide previous contacts with the Russians, their willingness to blatantly lie about their communications, and the contents of Trump’s meetings with former FBI director Comey are all incriminating on their own. And Trump’s decision to fire Comey specifically to hamper that investigation is obstruction of justice, no matter what spin he or anyone else puts upon it.

And the interference of the Russian government to circumvent our democratic procedures for electing the President of the United States is an act of war. There is no other way to characterize it; this was an all-out attack by the government of Russia on our democratic process, the very foundation of our country. This elevates Trump’s simple obstruction of justice to high treason under the Constitution.

We can also argue that Trump’s continued insistence on a travel ban — he’s not even disguising his intent anymore, based on his recent tweets — serves the purpose of assisting ISIS, which is arguably the nation’s biggest enemy right now. Trump’s campaign rhetoric and subsequent travel ban orders against the Muslim population serve as a valuable recruitment tool for the Islamic State by giving them credibility. ISIS’ whole narrative is that Western powers seek to destroy Islam; Trump’s willingness to wage what amounts to a constitutional jihad against all of Islam makes their entire case for them:

“It can play into their propaganda, to make it clear for anyone who could be in doubt, that it’s a war on Islam and all Muslims,” Abdullah told CNN over a messaging service. The names of the now-defected foreign fighters in this story have been changed to protect their identities.

Another former jihadi said the wedge being driven between Muslims living in the West and their governments is exactly what ISIS wants.

“[Trump’s] helped ISIS a lot, he’s basically being a tool for them in a way,” Abu Obaida, a British former Jabhat al-Nusra fighter in Syria, told CNN via direct message. “On social media right now there’s a lot of people quoting Anwar al-Awlaki (the late spokesperson for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula) and his last speech when he said that America will turn on the Muslims.”

That Trump fails to recognize how much he is assisting ISIS with his rhetoric — or simply does not care — is a subject for debate, but it is a fact which he cannot dispute. By choosing to ignore this fact, he is aiding the greatest foreign adversary in the modern world and therefore committing another act of treason.

This same argument also applies to top-ranking White House and Republican aides, including — but likely not limited to — Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, and Vice President Pence. While they may not be participating quite as directly as Trump himself, the fact that they support his agenda and are helping to protect him means that they are accessories and are thus also committing acts of treason. All must face justice.

Much has been made of the possibility of impeaching Trump, but this will not happen as long as Republicans maintain control of Congress. However, Trump’s impeachment and removal from office are no longer enough. The administration’s crimes against this nation fall under Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution, which outlines the offense of treason:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Trump’s firing of James Comey to impede the investigation into an act of war against our nation, and his assistance to ISIS in the form of providing them with propaganda for recruitment, both provide “Aid and Comfort” to enemies of the United States. It would be difficult to find a more grave offense among those Trump and his team have already committed against this nation and its people. But all involved must face justice.

And that’s why the impeachment and removal of Donald Trump from the Oval Office are merely the first steps in what must be a long-term policy to redeem the United States in the eyes of the world. They are certainly important steps in restoring the credibility of our government, our standing in the eyes of the world, and our very democracy. But they must not be the only steps, lest we still be left with Mike Pence as the acting president after Trump’s removal. No, to quote our new fuhrer, we must “drain the swamp.”

Draining the swamp means not only ejecting Trump from the presidency, but also bringing himself and everyone assisting in his agenda up on charges of treason. They must be convicted (there is little room to doubt their guilt). And then — upon receiving guilty verdicts — they must all be executed under the law. Anything less than capital punishment — or at least life imprisonment without parole in a maximum security detention facility — would send yet another message to the world that America has lost its moral compass. In order for America’s morality and leadership to be restored, it must rebuke Donald Trump, his entire administration, and his legislative agenda in the strongest manner possible. And nothing would do more than to convict them of the highest offense defined by our Constitution, and then to deliver the ultimate punishment. Donald Trump deserves nothing less. Mitch McConnell, Steve Bannon, and Paul Ryan should also share Donald Trump’s fate, for they have done more than practically anyone to protect him and to throw our country under the proverbial bus. In order to survive, we as a nation must deliver the ultimate punishment under the law to all involved in its current destruction."

My guess is that the author normally finds the death penalty to be unconstitutional, but would permit it for people whose politics he really disagrees with.

[Peally]

Easy fix, return the favor via execution due to threats of death against the president ;)

That retard defines "spineless dickweed journalist" to a T.

[XXXsilverXXX]

Jeep man that is some deep shit from that freak, idk if I want to gouge out my eyes or hit my head against a wall until I die. But damn.

[TC215]

A man walking his dog at a park near the field told Fox News he heard police yelling at the gunman to put the gun down followed by someone in or around the dugout screaming back "Just shoot him."

It's interesting how, when you're the one being shot at, the whole "just tase him" or "shoot him in the leg" thing goes flying out the window.

[Irelander]

Both political sides have produced their violent nuts. Both sides have media crap spewing out all the time.

If you think your political side is all peaches and cream, you are wearing blinders.

I think the Constitution Party is pretty much peaches and cream.

[NEPAKevin]

Easy fix, return the favor via execution due to threats of death against the president ;)

That retard defines "spineless dickweed journalist" to a T.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would swag this might fall under United States Code/Title 18/Part I/Chapter 115/Section 2385:
Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof--

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms organizes and organize, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

...and so forth. Bit of irony here.

[Chance]

More info emerging about the shooter. Hits all the right boxes of active shooter bingo. From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40280034):


Michael Hodgkinson, the suspect's brother, told the New York Times that James had become upset about the election of President Donald Trump and had moved to the Washington DC area "out of the blue" to protest.

Former Alexandria mayor Bill Euille told the Washington Post that he had seen James Hodgkinson every morning for the last month and a half at the local YMCA gym, using the showers.

Mr Euille said he was helping Hodgkinson look for a job in the area and that it appeared he may have been homeless.

"He'd open up his gym bag and in it, he had everything he owned. He was living out of the gym bag," the mayor told the paper. "He sat in the Y's lobby for hours and hours."

....

He was charged with multiple counts of domestic battery and aggravated discharge of a firearm in 2006, though those charges were dismissed.

According to court documents, the 2006 altercation took place after Hodgkinson tried to retrieve a 16-year-old girl believed to be his daughter from her friend's house.

The responding officer wrote in his report that the girl said Hodgkinson dragged her by her hair and beat her.

He then allegedly sliced into her seatbelt with a pocket knife and choked her as she tried to drive away.

The girl was a student who lived with Hodgkinson and his wife.

He also allegedly shot at one of her friends with a 12-gauge shotgun and punched another 16-year-old girl in the face.

According to local authorities, the 2006 charges against Hodgkinson were dropped after the victims failed to appear in court.

[Palmguy]

This woman is apparently former USSS. Painfully stupid:

https://twitter.com/amountainpass/status/874994394000236545

[Chance]

My guess is that the author normally finds the death penalty to be unconstitutional, but would permit it for people whose politics he really disagrees with.

My guess is that the author wears flannel pajamas and a tribly AT THE SAME TIME.

[ragnar_d]

This woman is apparently former USSS. Painfully stupid:

https://twitter.com/amountainpass/status/874994394000236545

Where's that dude from Billy Madison when you need him . . .
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170614/3a0ff5b8069332dbafd7c90ed8db39e9.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AMC]

Special Agent David Bailey and Special Agent Crystal Griner are apparently among the wounded in this attack. Way to stay in the fight, Agents. Beer and whiskey is on me, should our paths ever cross.

[Kyle Reese]

Where's that dude from Billy Madison when you need him . . .
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170614/3a0ff5b8069332dbafd7c90ed8db39e9.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm guessing that she wasn't an FI with them.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[TGS]

I'm guessing that she wasn't an FI with them.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

Given the reliability of media these days, she was probably an intern with USSS.

[RoyGBiv]

The thing that surprises me the most is the amount of surprise being expressed (by Congresscritters).

Never let a good crisis go to waste. Blah, blah.

Maybe a few of them will go to the trouble of getting DC carry permits.... and maybe that experience will lead to them fixing that bullshit process. Or National Reciprocity.

I know, I know.... A guy can dream.

[HCountyGuy]

Given the reliability of media these days, she probably wrote a term paper on the USSS.

FTFY

[jc000]

Trying to conflate this event with supporters of any given party or candidate is just wrong in my estimation. I don't understand this need or rush to jump on bandwagons. There are more than enough jackasses and miscreants of every stripe to go around. Last I checked no particular group had a monopoly.


I agree. The increase in political fragmentation into separate hateful tribes can only push folks over the edge. It is unfortunate that some will look to use this promote their tribe being better than another in a hateful way.

No disrespect intended (truly) but there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here.

Outside of 2 or 3 way random nutjob attacks, it's pretty clear that the exponential increase in political violence is overwhelmingly originating from one side in particular.

[Amp]

One Republican lawmaker believes that concealed carry reciprocity for members of Congress should be considered as part of possible security upgrades after House Majority Whip Steve Scalise, R-La., was shot at practice for the congressional charity baseball game early Wednesday morning

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/barry-loudermilk-wants-concealed-carry-for-lawmakers-in-dc-after-scalise-shooting/article/2625970

[TGS]

No disrespect intended (truly) but there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here.

Outside of 2 or 3 way random nutjob attacks, it's pretty clear that the exponential increase in political violence is overwhelmingly originating from one side in particular.

The big difference to me is that while nutjobs will be on both sides (like nutjob conservatives bombing abortion clinics a few decades ago), the rank and file (not nut job outliers) on the one side have been involved in repeated, consistent political violence during the campaign through to today. That's not something that the Republican party/it's members has displayed in most of our life times.

Like another member mentioned earlier in this thread, when you've effectively painted the opposition as Nazis then there's going to be results.

We've got half the country brain washed to the point that they equate enforcing standing immigration law on CONVICTED VIOLENT FELONS as tantamount to rounding up the Jews in the 30s. I mean.....come on.

[farscott]

I find it off-putting that so much mention needs to be made of the fact that the officer referred to above is black. Should we expect greater or lesser service, dedication or devotion from an officer of one racial or ethnic group than another?

This is exactly why I hate the whole damned hyphenated American labels. I'm an American. If you're an American and you have a role to play or job to do, I expect that you will do it regardless of the color of your skin or some other accident of birth. Period.

That officer deserves our praise because he rose to the occasion when he and others were in harm's way. The fact that he is black or anything else, (straight, gay, Christian, Muslim, what have you), is irrelevant.

We will never make any progress as long as our focus is so myopic.

This. All this. More than half of the problems we have are "us versus them", whether it is rich/poor, black.white, etc. If we all think of ourselves as Americans, and not something-hyphenated-American, we might be able to work on some real issues.

[blues]

No disrespect intended (truly) but there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here.

Outside of 2 or 3 way random nutjob attacks, it's pretty clear that the exponential increase in political violence is overwhelmingly originating from one side in particular.

No offense taken and I've dealt with the whack jobs on various sides over the years both when working my own investigations as well as on protection details.

I try not to allow my perspective to be distorted by "recency". It's not at all that I don't see the threats and where they emanate from, I'm just not willing to exonerate any of the guilty parties regardless of the current appearance or propensity.

[Gray222]

One Republican lawmaker believes that concealed carry reciprocity for members of Congress should be considered as part of possible security upgrades after House Majority Whip Steve Scalise, R-La., was shot at practice for the congressional charity baseball game early Wednesday morning

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/barry-loudermilk-wants-concealed-carry-for-lawmakers-in-dc-after-scalise-shooting/article/2625970

Or, you know, just make national carry a reality and no one has to worry about it and/or be included in a special group.

[Jeep]

My guess is that the author wears flannel pajamas and a tribly AT THE SAME TIME.

So ObamaCare pajama boy with a trilby? You might be on to something.

[NEPAKevin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXiXxBI2L4A

[trailrunner]

Alexandria is a very liberal city but fortunately my permit is valid there. I had dinner six blocks from that ball field a week and a half ago. I noticed all the workers in the local restaurants and coffee shops that night were wearing bright orange shirts for "moms demand action," because there was going to be an anti-gun rally that night. I told me wife that we needed to get out of there before the rally started.

[farscott]

CNN is reporting that the shooter had a SKS and a 9x19 handgun, and that the FIRST surgery on Rep. Saclise is complete. If correct, Rep. Scalise may be facing a long, arduous recovery.

[Amp]

You reap what you sow:

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is unequivocally condemning the vicious shooting committed by one of his campaign volunteers today, but he struck a different tone when Gabby Giffords was attacked in 2011.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/14/what-bernie-sanders-did-after-giffords-2011-shooting-is-coming-back-to-haunt-him/

[Peally]

You reap what you sow:

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is unequivocally condemning the vicious shooting committed by one of his campaign volunteers today, but he struck a different tone when Gabby Giffords was attacked in 2011.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/14/what-bernie-sanders-did-after-giffords-2011-shooting-is-coming-back-to-haunt-him/

The ass is just butt covering, nothing more.

[littlejerry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXiXxBI2L4A

I'm kinda surprised by the number of people casually walking around during the event... Do they think this is a spectator sport?

[ssb]

You reap what you sow:

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is unequivocally condemning the vicious shooting committed by one of his campaign volunteers today, but he struck a different tone when Gabby Giffords was attacked in 2011.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/14/what-bernie-sanders-did-after-giffords-2011-shooting-is-coming-back-to-haunt-him/

While I'm not a fan of "let's assign guilt collectively for the actions of a particular individual" when it comes to political team sports, Pepperidge Farm does indeed remember those days and as such makes that choice difficult difficult.

[RoyGBiv]

I'm kinda surprised by the number of people casually walking around during the event... Do they think this is a spectator sport?
Hoping for hits.
FB likes and YouTube hits are Millennial Crack.

Or...... Pokémon?

[StraitR]

You reap what you sow:

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is unequivocally condemning the vicious shooting committed by one of his campaign volunteers today, but he struck a different tone when Gabby Giffords was attacked in 2011.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/14/what-bernie-sanders-did-after-giffords-2011-shooting-is-coming-back-to-haunt-him/

My favorite part from that particular rant of Bernie's...


“Have right-wing reactionaries, through threats and acts of violence, intimidated people with different points of view from expressing their political positions?”

[RJ]

CNN is reporting that the shooter had a SKS and a 9x19 handgun, and that the FIRST surgery on Rep. Saclise is complete. If correct, Rep. Scalise may be facing a long, arduous recovery.

Catching up on this, so sorry if I missed it: an SKS, is that a long gun?

Edit: Sorry, should have googled:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS

[littlejerry]

Catching up on this, so sorry if I missed it: an SKS, is that a long gun?

Edit: Sorry, should have googled:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS

So far I've seen M4, "AK type", and SKS reported. I'd give it a week before believing any reports.

[HCM]

So far I've seen M4, "AK type", and SKS reported. I'd give it a week before believing any reports.

There are SKS variations which take AK mags and there are fixed aftermarket 30 round mags for the SKS which are curved and appear similar to AK mags so SKS is possible.

[HCM]

http://nypost.com/2017/06/14/gunman-spent-weeks-scoping-out-field-before-shooting/

Gunman spent weeks scoping out field before shooting

[HCM]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCU15q4XcAUZPwq.jpg

17353

Scalise sustained a transverse hit through the hips with the rifle. That shatters bone, smashes a bunch of blood vessels, and leaves him in an extremely precarious state. Bleeding and infection are high possibilities.

[okie john]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCU15q4XcAUZPwq.jpg

17353

Scalise sustained a transverse hit through the hips with the rifle. That shatters bone, smashes a bunch of blood vessels, and leaves him in an extremely precarious state. Bleeding and infection are high possibilities.

Prayers out to the good representative. On the bright side, he won't need a Go Fund Me for medical expenses since he has the best medical coverage in the world.


Okie John

[Chance]

David Bailey and Crystal Griner.

1735417355


Capitol Police officers seem unreasonably good looking.

[AMC]

David Bailey and Crystal Griner.

1735417355


Capitol Police officers seem unreasonably good looking.

Badasses. Both of them. Any PF members who have contacts in the Capital Police, please convey the admiration of their brothers and sisters on the Left Coast. Again, drinks are on me if ever our paths cross.

[Ed L]

Both political sides have produced their violent nuts. Both sides have media crap spewing out all the time.

If you think your political side is all peaches and cream, you are wearing blinders.

Remember when Republican supporters were disrupting Democrat rallies and rioting in the streets the way Antifa and BLM does; and when Republican supporters rioted after Barack Obama was elected?

Yeah, me neither.

[Zincwarrior]

I tried to riot, but the dogs demanded I remember my priorities and keep rubbing their bellies and occasionally fetching them delicious treats.

[TGS]

Badasses. Both of them. Any PF members who have contacts in the Capital Police, please convey the admiration of their brothers and sisters on the Left Coast. Again, drinks are on me if ever our paths cross.

Sucks for DC Metropolitan PD.....they just lost their only trump card to pull on USCP, that they're not real cops that ever see real action.

;)

One of my close friends 10 years ago was on MPD. He shared an apartment with an officer from USCP, and an officer from PFPA. That was a fun apartment.

[blues]

I tried to riot, but the dogs demanded I remember my priorities and keep rubbing their bellies and occasionally fetching them delicious treats.

Funny, I was rubbing my dog's ears as I just now read that. Guess we've got our priorities messed up.


NOT!

[blues]

David Bailey and Crystal Griner.

1735417355



I can't help but notice that both those officers are...








...smiling!



As heroes should.

[StraitR]

Remember when Republican supporters were disrupting Democrat rallies and rioting in the streets the way Antifa and BLM does; and when Republican supporters rioted after Barack Obama was elected?

Yeah, me neither.

Both times, right?

Anyway, if you preach hate and violence, you breed hate and violence. Doesn't matter if you're a Nazi, Muslim, Christian, black, white, Dem, or Republican. The previous narrative was about cops, the result was violence against cops. Now it's Trump and the current administration, the result is yesterday, likely the first of many. It's so painfully obvious, that it's mind-blowingly frustrating to watch.

Both sides may or may not have been guilty at some other point, but that doesn't preclude us from calling the current progressive left narrative what it is, purposely breeding hate and violence against the right. The spotlight is on them and their crazies, but I'll happily address my own "tribe's" nutjobs after Fox and conservative newspapers start speaking and condoning violence against anyone with opposing political views.

[Trukinjp13]

I voted republican and will continue to. I do not agree with a lot of what they stand for. Honestly it is mostly them bringing religious beliefs into the fold. But I very very much disagree with democrats. The fact is like was stated the leftist crazies are in fact far ahead in violence. The right followers usually are waiving the flag and preaching the constitution.

I am a simple man. I believe our government should follow the constitution and the bill of rights. Not script laws to circumvent it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1slow]

I voted republican and will continue to. I do not agree with a lot of what they stand for. Honestly it is mostly them bringing religious beliefs into the fold. But I very very much disagree with democrats. The fact is like was stated the leftist crazies are in fact far ahead in violence. The right followers usually are waiving the flag and preaching the constitution.

I am a simple man. I believe our government should follow the constitution and the bill of rights. Not script laws to circumvent it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

THIS!!!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Both groups are worthless - my position but a reasonable analysis surprising for the NYTimes - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/opinion/virginia-shooting-james-hodgkinson.html?ref=opinion

Both the left and right suppress different rights and support the wealthy elites. They snow you with tribal social crap to restrain liberty. Of course, many are ok if they get their stuff.

[Jeep]

I only mildly disagree with your view.

But there is a difference. For example with the Gabby Giffords shooting, Loughner had no connection at all with Palin. He was described by his friends as being left wing before he fell apart completely and started thinking that grammar is a plot to control minds. Yet the next day the NYT blamed Palin.

The guy who shot up the baseball practice seems to have been a normal lefty given to denouncing Republicans and loving Occupy Wall Street. It is fairly obvious that he had a fragile mind, and the political craziness of the last year unhinged him. But if Sarah Palin was responsible for Giffords in any way, then the New York Times--sponsoring as it as a production of Julius Caesar in which Caesar is Trump and his assassination triggers waves of tears--has blood directly on its hands.

Now, in fact, I think this guy is responsible for his own acts. But I don't remember any mainstream conservative organs broadly hinting that Obama should be whacked, and I think that is because mainstream conservatives opposed Obama but never thought he should be murdered. Right now the left has gone far, far beyond that, and that fever is bound to infect people who don't quite get that all of this resistance talk is supposed to be metaphorical.

I have a lot of issues with the Republican party and conservative "leaders." However, on this issue I do not believe that they are guilty of the same excesses as the Democrats. Nor is this just a Trump-related phenomena. There was a play portraying the assassination of G.W. Bush too.

The left does not own what happened yesterday, but it in fairness, their rhetoric has been far more shrill and tinged with violence (as many of them justify the "antifa" riots, and get hysterical about Trump) than anything conservatives did with Obama.

Sometime "a plague on both their houses" is the correct response. And perhaps it is here as well. But, it isn't the case that conservatives have been pushing political violence the way a big portion of the left has. With luck, this even will sober them up and get them to act like adults, not middle school students.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I agree that thought control and violence are part of the left as well as the right. The thought control and use of violence on campuses does not speak to their innocence of promoting a poisonous atmosphere in the USA.

Arguing about the degree that both groups stink, isn't useful to my mind. I see neither getting a poor working folk a good job, secure health care, personal safety and the country safer. Going over the stupidity that each group puts forward convinces me that they both should be flushed.

Most internet rhetoric is analogous to discussion the relative stink of a 9 mm turd vs a 45 cal turd.

[Jeep]

Let me respectfully disagree with your thought that it doesn't make much sense to look at which group "stinks" worse. In defusing what has become an increasingly violent situation, it is not only useful, but necessary, to look where the violence is coming from. Here is a tweet from a Huffington Post contributor named Jesse Benn yesterday:

"For violent resistance to work it'd need to be organized. Individual acts can be understandable, but likely counterproductive/ineffective."

After he got a lot of pushback, particularly about the cops who were shot, he tweeted the following:

"[a writer who challenged him] doesn't seem to know me if he thinks two cops getting shot is going to upset me."

Not all the left thinks this way, of course. But there appear to be an increasing number of leftists who do. And, of course, there are organs such as the NYT who think it is fine to sponsor plays showing Trump getting murdered."

To say that "both sides have their loonies" is correct. But it isn't the case that political violence is coming from both sides now. It is coming overwhelmingly from the left and if there are any grown-ups remaining on the left (and there must be, we just don't hear about them) then they should be trying to stop this. It is heading in a very dangerous direction.

[StraitR]

I understand your position Glenn E. Meyer, and aside from respecting it, I also agree to an extent. That said, this discussion is about the targeting and shooting of US Congress members BECAUSE they are Republicans and the message of hate and violence currently coming from the left. It should not, and cannot, be ignored simply because neither parties are perfect and "they both should be flushed".

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We've had right and left violence - neither should be ignored. I can agree with that. I'd still flush both sets of nuts.

[Sensei]

Jesse Benn needs to critically re-evaluate his position on the socioeconomic survival ladder before advocating widespread violence. If America were to go the way of Bill the Butcher, I suspect that he might feel a little empty handed when he shows up to the Five Points armed with nothing but gay porn and granola...

[RevolverRob]

Here's an unpopular opinion.

Maybe more of Congress should be shot with more regularity?

Why? It's clear to me that about 90% of the time Congressmen do not represent their constituents' viewpoints nor do they really give a flying fuck about the consequences of their bullshit rhetoric and blustering. They care about power, money, and doing what they want to do in that order. Redistricting, gerrymandering, bottomless campaign funds, and corrupt connections with corporations and individuals tell you that they have no interest in allowing the system to self-correct via the voting process as it should. If Congress is intent on not allowing the system to function properly, there is a purely Constitutional approach to dealing with that. Taking up arms and removing them from power.

Though you may not like it, the occasional shooting of a member of Congress serves as an amazingly good reminder/wake-up call for other folks to not fuck up or the consequences could be dire.

----BUT----

BOTH sides are spewing hateful rhetoric. Everyone here is saying, "The left is whipping people into a frenzy to have them shoot Republicans." - Did anyone stop and think how the right feeds the left's rhetoric by doing stupid fucking shit? Like wholesale attempts at banning (legal) immigration? That might piss someone off and then you've got someone who can easily turn that into hateful rhetoric. It doesn't help when the response to the rhetoric is, "You're just a liberal weenie" or something to that effect. Where I come from, that's basically how 95% of all fights start, someone thinking they are right, having an inability to listen, and then getting punched in the face, because they are being an asshole.

Is Rep Steve Scalise an asshole? I don't really know, to be honest. My default response is to say, "He is in Congress, therefore he is an asshole." - But maybe he really isn't. I'm not saying he deserved to be shot because he is a Republican or even because he is a Congressman. He didn't deserve to be shot, period. Certainly not until after the due process part of the constitution was followed through on. Which brings me to my only real issue with this whole thing - the (mostly) indiscriminate shooting of people in Congress. We can find much more effective ways of discriminating who should and shouldn't be shot.

As far as I am concerned it is the relatively random nature of this crime that is and speaks to the real problem. Not that Left/Right are spewing rhetoric, they do that shit all the time. It's that we are not doing an adequate job of actually vetting and enforcing the consequences for being shitty politicians. We've let them monopolize power and even fuck with the judicial branch. I find it appalling that there are not constant, active, criminal investigations into every single politician on Capitol Hill. Everyone of them should be as clean as they want you and I to be, leading by example not by "do as I say not as I do". Until that happens, I can't be too outraged at the occasional shooting of a Congressman.

___

Just to be clear I am not condoning nor advocating the shooting of members of Congress. I'm advocating more active investigation and enforcement of criminal consequences for people that seem to be bent on consistently violating the law and our rights. If, in the process of getting to this, some Congress members get shot? I'm not going to lose much sleep over it.

[RoyGBiv]

Though you may not like it, the occasional shooting of a member of Congress serves as an amazingly good reminder/wake-up call for other folks to not fuck up or the consequences could be dire.

How is shooting someone elses Congressman a wake up call? <insert headscratch smiley here>
Scalise, from Louisiana, gets shot by a nutcase from Illinois. What lesson should Congress learn?

Now if a few hundred angry Illini got all pitchforky on Jan Schakowsky or Danny Davis, that might send a message about representing your own constituency.

[StraitR]

We're all wasting our breath, the real problem is guns.

17358

[blues]

That took longer than expected.

[RevolverRob]

How is shooting someone elses Congressman a wake up call? <insert headscratch smiley here>
Scalise, from Louisiana, gets shot by a nutcase from Illinois. What lesson should Congress learn?

Now if a few hundred angry Illini got all pitchforky on Jan Schakowsky or Danny Davis, that might send a message about representing your own constituency.

Shooting any congressman should (could?) serve as a casual reminder to other congress folks that they 1) Not untouchable. 2) Should maybe be independent non-party thinkers or they might get shot for wearing the wrong gang colors in the wrong 'hood. - Once again, I'm not advocating it. Just pointing out the reality of what semi-regular culling of the herd might produce.

I concur that it would be better if folks from their own districts got pitchforky and hung 'em out would be more effective in generating the message.

[Mr_White]

I have to say I like this word, pitchforky.

[TDA]

The Weather Underground tried to blow up Dianne Feinstein forty years ago because [I]they[I] thought she was an ass. Nothing was gained and nothing was learned, except that in our political process violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

[blues]

Shooting any congressman should (could?) serve as a casual reminder to other congress folks that they 1) Not untouchable. 2) Should maybe be independent non-party thinkers or they might get shot for wearing the wrong gang colors in the wrong 'hood. - Once again, I'm not advocating it. Just pointing out the reality of what semi-regular culling of the herd might produce.

I concur that it would be better if folks from their own districts got pitchforky and hung 'em out would be more effective in generating the message.

This is an irresponsible and gratuitous post simply to garner attention. It's poor form to obliquely suggest an action which you are "not advocating".

Shooting people is not a frivolous and inconsequential game to be posited lightly. There are better ways to make your point, imho.

If it ever comes to (more and regular) shooting of this nature, none of us are going to be unscathed.

[TAZ]

Nazis, Communists and terrorists recruit people of questionable morals and weak minds through the use of propaganda. Jews are the reason for Germany's crumbling economy, infrastructure... The Tsar and his wealthy cronies are the reason you can't feed your family. Join the people's revolution to save yourself... The infidels are her to rape your wives, murder your children and wipe Islam off the face of the earth. Rise up and defend your whatever...

We condemn the use of propaganda by Jihadis. We condemn the use of propaganda to foment hatred in the Ukraine/Crimea. We demand that social media monitor and remove propaganda fomenting violence. We do these things because we believe that words have an impact on people and while it is the individuals responsibility to not act violently there is still a chance that they can be radicalized via continued exposure.

Yet we ignore our own internal radicalizing propaganda and claim that it has no impact on the behavior of people. Sorry that dog don't hunt. Either you can radicalize people using nothing more than media content or you can't. If you can, and I'm of the opinion that you can, then we need to be as concerned about internal political radicalization as we are about Jihadi radicalization.

We have had almost over a year of crazy political spectacles with ever increasing violent content and rhetoric. We have had hysterical screaming fears that ratcheted up to physical confrontations that then escalated violence and violently denying folks their constitutional rights. All seemingly without consequence to those doing the violence. After a year of 24/7/365 propaganda we have a nut job go more unhinged than the already unhinged ANTIFA. This shouldn't shock people.

If we want to minimize these events we need to understand what the contributing factors were to creating it. Some we will not be able to control. Some we can.

IMO when our 24/7/365 media and political leaders stray from civil discourse and resort to demonization and name calling, I don't care which side is doing it, BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN.

[Doc_Glock]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCU15q4XcAUZPwq.jpg

17353

Scalise sustained a transverse hit through the hips with the rifle. That shatters bone, smashes a bunch of blood vessels, and leaves him in an extremely precarious state. Bleeding and infection are high possibilities.

This is a very challenging injury to treat and recover from. I am surprised it didn't kill him outright.

All the best to the congressman and his caregivers.

[Totem Polar]

That took longer than expected.

The Bernie Facebook page threw them off their stride for a day.

[RevolverRob]

Edit: Removing myself from the conversation.

[NEPAKevin]

The Bernie Facebook page threw them off their stride for a day.

Not really. I believe VA's governor was tweeting anti-gun rhetoric prior to the discovery of the Bernie connection.

[HCountyGuy]

Here's something I've been mulling over: In regards to the security present, why wasn't it better?

Not that I mean to detract from the superb response of the officers who took this scumbag out, but how was he allowed to get so far as he was without notice? Considering there were numerous politicians gathered in one area I would think the security provided would have been more, I suppose thorough? At least a plainclothes individual or two deployed somewhere nearby watching who could've seen this guy coming and dispatched him the moment he brought out the rifle.

[Ed L]

Both groups are worthless - my position but a reasonable analysis surprising for the NYTimes - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/opinion/virginia-shooting-james-hodgkinson.html?ref=opinion

Both the left and right suppress different rights and support the wealthy elites. They snow you with tribal social crap to restrain liberty. Of course, many are ok if they get their stuff.

Show me where Republican supporters were disrupting Democrat rallies and rioting in the streets the way Antifa and BLM does; and point out where Republican supporters rioted after Barack Obama was elected.

[WobblyPossum]

Here's something I've been mulling over: In regards to the security present, why wasn't it better?

Not that I mean to detract from the superb response of the officers who took this scumbag out, but how was he allowed to get so far as he was without notice? Considering there were numerous politicians gathered in one area I would think the security provided would have been more, I suppose thorough? At least a plainclothes individual or two deployed somewhere nearby watching who could've seen this guy coming and dispatched him the moment he brought out the rifle.

Do we know if he just walked into the field openly carrying a rifle? If he walked to the dugout wearing athletic attire and carrying the rifle inside a baseball equipment bag he wouldn't have garnered a second look.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

Here's something I've been mulling over: In regards to the security present, why wasn't it better?

Not that I mean to detract from the superb response of the officers who took this scumbag out, but how was he allowed to get so far as he was without notice? Considering there were numerous politicians gathered in one area I would think the security provided would have been more, I suppose thorough? At least a plainclothes individual or two deployed somewhere nearby watching who could've seen this guy coming and dispatched him the moment he brought out the rifle.

Not that simple.

The U.S. Capitol Police have a general mission of protecting congress, primarily while in the Capitol building. Only the House and senate leadership have official protective details unless there is some specific threat against a particular senator or congressman. Those USCP assigned to protective details do work in plainclothes. In this case a 2 or 3 Agent detail whose job was only to protect Rep Scalise. For scheduled public events they are augmented by state and local officers but this was not an "event" it was just an intramural baseball practice.

As for the suspect's approach, DanM is pot on.

[HCountyGuy]

Not that simple.

The U.S. Capitol Police have a general mission of protecting congress, primarily while in the Capitol building. Only the House and senate leadership have official protective details unless there is some specific threat against a particular senator or congressman. Those USCP assigned to protective details do work in plainclothes. In this case a 2 or 3 Agent detail whose job was only to protect Rep Scalise. For scheduled public events they are augmented by state and local officers but this was not an "event" it was just an intramural baseball practice.

As for the suspect's approach, DanM is pot on.

Thank you for the clarification and insight on that.

I imagine the security procedures may change some after this incident. I can only imagine what security at the upcoming game will be like.

[hufnagel]

I've mulled over this response:

Perhaps We (the right, the ones being currently picked on, the Nazis, the homophobes, whatever else they want to tag us with) were too nice in the beginning to the bullies coming from the left. We held our tongues, and our fists, when confronted, like the good Citizens we strive to be, and have given space to behavior that should have earned a newspaper across the nose, at very least. If that is the case, how many noses will now need broken (or worse) before they learn their mistake, and order is restored. I fear there are people barely hanging on to "sanity" at this point, on both sides, and that if news of Rep. Scalise's passing were to occur, those people would let go against the Left. I don't wish to be a Gloom and Doom advocate, but I don't like the way this looks, smells, or tastes. I fear ugly is about descend upon us.

[farscott]

Shooting any congressman should (could?) serve as a casual reminder to other congress folks that they 1) Not untouchable. 2) Should maybe be independent non-party thinkers or they might get shot for wearing the wrong gang colors in the wrong 'hood. - Once again, I'm not advocating it. Just pointing out the reality of what semi-regular culling of the herd might produce.

I concur that it would be better if folks from their own districts got pitchforky and hung 'em out would be more effective in generating the message.

I am not trying to stir the pot, but one of the things about the USA that has been unique is that we as a people take pride in the peaceful transfer of power. We have elections for that reason.

The 2nd Amendment is about resisting a tyrannical government, not about using violence in place of fair and free elections. The fact that anyone is comfortable with the idea of ANY elected government official being shot sickens me as that is one of the most anti-American actions. It literally is a violation of our values.

If a mod wants to edit or remove this post, that is fine. I just could not respond to such a violation. I had to do something.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[HCountyGuy]

I've mulled over this response:

Perhaps We (the right, the ones being currently picked on, the Nazis, the homophobes, whatever else they want to tag us with) were too nice in the beginning to the bullies coming from the left. We held our tongues, and our fists, when confronted, like the good Citizens we strive to be, and have given space to behavior that should have earned a newspaper across the nose, at very least. If that is the case, how many noses will now need broken (or worse) before they learn their mistake, and order is restored. I fear there are people barely hanging on to "sanity" at this point, on both sides, and that if news of Rep. Scalise's passing were to occur, those people would let go against the Left. I don't wish to be a Gloom and Doom advocate, but I don't like the way this looks, smells, or tastes. I fear ugly is about descend upon us.

I concur with the thought that we have been far too lenient towards unacceptable behavior, and it's costing us. I'm not saying we take up every little slight against civilized behavior with a broken nose for the trouble-maker(s), but the line needs toeing. Much like the Starbucks incident that SouthNarc conveyed, sometimes an asshole needs yanked up by the collar and set straight.

[Mitch]

You know how responsible gun owners hate being lumped in with mentally deficient psychos that go on shooting rampages?

I'm willing to bet people on the "left" (or at least those who don't align with the Republican Party) feel the same way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAD]

You know how responsible gun owners hate being lumped in with mentally deficient psychos that go on shooting rampages?

I'm willing to bet people on the "left" (or at least those who don't align with the Republican Party) feel the same way.


Lie down with dogs...

[Mitch]

Lie down with dogs...

You could say the same thing to Trump's staff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

I am not trying to stir the pot, but one of the things about the USA that has been unique is that we as a people take pride in the peaceful transfer of power. We have elections for that reason.

The 2nd Amendment is about resisting a tyrannical government, not about using violence in place of fair and free elections. The fact that anyone is comfortable with the idea of ANY elected government official being shot sickens me as that is one of the most anti-American actions. It literally is a violation of our values.

If a mod wants to edit or remove this post, that is fine. I just could not respond to such a violation. I had to do something.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

I'm only going to post once more in this thread for clarification. I am not comfortable with the idea, quite the opposite really. Like you, I think the USA is unique because we have peaceful transfer of power. Every time power transfers from one administration to another, without bloodshed, the experiment that is our society goes on.

The point I was attempting (and miserably failing) to make is; that these types of events are a manifestation of frustration with our government. Sometimes, a violent protest can produce the necessary talking and moving forward point and sometimes it cannot. Historically, assassination attempts and assassinations were used as the foil for revolution. Lest anyone think I am advocating for revolution - I am not.

I find myself and many others are disenfranchised with the governmental and political establishment in this country. If you aren't disenfranchised you're likely either not paying attention or part of the establishment itself. That is not an excuse to advocate violence. I was attempting (and again failed at) demonstrating that actions like this are symptomatic of a broader problem. Not one that can be categorized as "Left" or "Right", but one that can only be categorized as "fundamental to the current way the political system works". Some folks (not me) are so frustrated with the system that (violent) revolution seems to be a genuinely viable approach. And - they are not wrong - in the sense that violent revolutions have historically been pretty successful (see the French Revolution and the American Revolution). There is, however, a fine line between revolution and rebellion and there is a time and place when it is appropriate to cause an insurrection.

On the strictly personal front, I am a strong advocate of internal change of our political system. We need, at minimum, to convince our representatives to give up their rhetoric. The rhetoric is serving as nothing more than justification for power-grabs and further cementation of political power with professional politicians, not the people. We need to have representatives that lead by example, not by lying to our faces, lying under oaths, and covering up their crimes. I find it abhorrent that there is a Wikipedia page dedicated to, "American Federal Officials Convicted of Crimes". It frustrates me that there have been 3-additions to this page since Trump was inaugurated. That strikes me as a real problem.

Regarding the 2A as protection from a tyrannical government. If you, as a citizen, feel that you are fundamentally not represented fairly (if at all) by the government and that the government is unjustly persecuting, you're only one step away from having a tyrannical government. And the step in between is whether or not the judicial and due process of the system can be used to help solve your grievances with the government. If the judicial system is unable to accomplish the necessary change, one would, in theory, be fully justified in utilizing force to disband the government and establish a new one. Of course, this should not be undertaken lightly, quickly, and without careful consideration. I'm merely pointing out that one man's "tyranny" is another man's "democracy". For instance, I doubt very much that King George thought he was being tyrannical.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not really. I believe VA's governor was tweeting anti-gun rhetoric prior to the discovery of the Bernie connection.

You do recall that the Clinton campaign deliberately painted Bernie as a gun nut and friend of the NRA. Terry might be quite already with the connection.
As far defense against tyranny, there is a large scholarly literature on African American civil rights folks using firearms to defend themselves against what were clearly agents of tyrannical Southern state governments as well as private but organized racist groups (given a pass by their state governments). These actions were defensive but pointed out that force would be used to be protective.

George III did clearly state that he was acting as a sovereign and in a manner close to tyrannical. His views of the Colonies was as a divine ruler.

[mmc45414]

David Bailey
17354
Throwing out the first pitch:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police-officer-injured-in-shooting-throws-first-pitch-at-congressional-baseball-game/ar-BBCKicR?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

[blues]

Throwing out the first pitch:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police-officer-injured-in-shooting-throws-first-pitch-at-congressional-baseball-game/ar-BBCKicR?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Awesome!

[TGS]

Here's something I've been mulling over: In regards to the security present, why wasn't it better?

Not that I mean to detract from the superb response of the officers who took this scumbag out, but how was he allowed to get so far as he was without notice? Considering there were numerous politicians gathered in one area I would think the security provided would have been more, I suppose thorough? At least a plainclothes individual or two deployed somewhere nearby watching who could've seen this guy coming and dispatched him the moment he brought out the rifle.

I don't think it's appropriate to discuss specifics on tactics, but the abstract/theory version revolves expectation management.

Not all details are purposed or even able to deter or detect and prevent an attack like this with high probability. If any organization thinks they can, that's an institutional fault that needs to be addressed. In reality, a 1-4 man detail more to keep you from getting into known trouble, to detect and prevent fairly minor things (over-zealous fans who won't let go of a handshake, for instance), or in the case of a life threatening attack at distance their primary purpose (in reality) is to effect a fortuitous outcome after the first shot.

You're not going to create a non-permissive, secured environment on an open baseball field with two guys, nor is it a realistic expectation. Just because someone has a protection detail doesn't mean they get a never-ending motorcade of dudes locking down everywhere they go. Throughout the industry (not just federal, this is open source), the vast majority of protection details are 1-4 close protection officers. Things are generally graded on a threat level and assets assigned accordingly. Obviously everyone would be safer with a full detail, counter surveillance assets, air support, counter sniper team(s) and a counter assault team on standby. We simply don't have the resources for that, so details are staffed based on a risk/reward ratio. Some details get 1-4. Some get even two counter assault teams. It depends.

As for this being impetus for change.....well, who knows. Maybe yes, maybe no. It's really hard to draw conclusions without incredibly detailed specifics. It's even more hard to draw a conclusion when none of us here are intimately familiar with the tactics employed. Sure, there's always something to learn and improve on, but just because a dude with a rifle shot up the game doesn't mean that anyone necessarily did anything wrong, per se. If that's something that every protectee should be secure from, then it's going to take a LOT of money and a LOT of manpower that we currently don't have.

[SeriousStudent]

Throwing out the first pitch:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police-officer-injured-in-shooting-throws-first-pitch-at-congressional-baseball-game/ar-BBCKicR?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Most excellent! :)

I hope he experiences a full and complete recovery, along with everyone else who was injured.

[Ed L]

You know how responsible gun owners hate being lumped in with mentally deficient psychos that go on shooting rampages?

I'm willing to bet people on the "left" (or at least those who don't align with the Republican Party) feel the same way.


I don't think anyone is trying to paint everyone on the left as mentally deficient psychos who are prone to shooting rampages.

We are pointing out that there are certain elements like Antifa and BLM, as well as a large scale hostility that we see in large protests and their over the top comments, and celebrities spewing hate at every opportunity, all of which creates an anti Trump and anti-Republican environment that is conducive to making certain people go over the edge.

[Hambo]

I don't think anyone is trying to paint everyone on the left as mentally deficient psychos who are prone to shooting rampages.

We are pointing out that there are certain elements like Antifa and BLM, as well as a large scale hostility that we see in large protests and their over the top comments, and celebrities spewing hate at every opportunity, all of which creates an anti Trump and anti-Republican environment that is conducive to making certain people go over the edge.

Remember Timothy McVeigh? Neither side has a corner on crazy-violent-anti-government.

[RoyGBiv]

Here's something I've been mulling over: In regards to the security present, why wasn't it better?

Not that I mean to detract from the superb response of the officers who took this scumbag out, but how was he allowed to get so far as he was without notice? Considering there were numerous politicians gathered in one area I would think the security provided would have been more, I suppose thorough? At least a plainclothes individual or two deployed somewhere nearby watching who could've seen this guy coming and dispatched him the moment he brought out the rifle.

Approaching from another angle....

What US Congressperson in their right mind would fail to carry a firearm today? "Regulations make it too inconvenient" is not an excuse I'll accept from lawmakers. Don't ask me to pay for the security you are unwilling to provide for yourself when you are more than willing to erect barriers making it difficult, nigh impossible in some places, for me to provide it for myself.

(apologies for grammar.. covfefe still on the boil)

[RoyGBiv]

Remember Timothy McVeigh? Neither side has a corner on crazy-violent-anti-government.

I don't recall anyone trying to explain McVeighs actions in a way that made it sound reasonable.... I think that's the rub.
https://news.grabien.com/story-left-wing-twitter-celebrates-shooting-rep-scalise

[Drang]

That took longer than expected.
Well, of course he had to wait a few breaths before trying to politicize the event, he had just cautioned against politicizing the event. One must have some sense of decorum while dancing in the blood of others and exaggerating the rate of firearms violence by about a million, after all.

[Drang]

Here's something I've been mulling over: In regards to the security present, why wasn't it better?
Congressmen are not authorized any security unless they're in a key position, like Majority Whip. That may change now.

[jc000]

Remember Timothy McVeigh? Neither side has a corner on crazy-violent-anti-government.

Sure we do. Because he's one of the lone standouts that's always trotted out when people try to make the false argument that right wing violence is on the same level of left-wing violence. Even if you were to wrap Hitler, Mussolini, Franco under the banner of "right-wing" violence (many would call fascism "left-wing") their body counts still pale in comparison to what the left is responsible for in the past 100 years from the Bolshevists to Castro.

The right was not randomly pepper-spraying, hitting with bike locks, beating, throwing objects, etc. innocent attendees of political events this past campaign. The left was, and on such a widespread level that a rally by the eventual winning candidate, in one of the countries most populous cities (Chicago) was actually shut down due to leftist violence.

Yes sure, we've heard of the Order, AB (which is nothing more than an ethnic prison gang, not a political group), abortion clinic bombers… it still all pales in comparison to the endemic violence of the left.

I've had nearly two decades of first-hand experience dealing with ANTIFA. Most of you really don't know what the hell youre talking about when it comes to political violence in our country.

[Chance]

What US Congressperson in their right mind would fail to carry a firearm today? )

I was thinking Republicans should be armed to the teeth out of principle.

[blues]

What US Congressperson in their right mind would fail to carry a firearm today?

First you'll have to identify one in their right mind...

[OlongJohnson]

My point was that they got the job done. Overseas they just ran away. From terrorists who did not even have guns. It shows the difference in mindset and how much our leos put on the line to protect and serve.

It was barely more than a week ago that there was an English cop taking on three jihadis with only a baton.



This woman is apparently former USSS. Painfully stupid:

https://twitter.com/amountainpass/status/874994394000236545

I also view this as intentional disinformation. If I remember correctly, after San Bernardino, there was an "expert" on some news show in NY saying that the bullet button would make an AR go full auto (the exact same thing this person is saying is the characteristic of a semi-auto rifle). I thought that had gone away, until some jackass in the CA state legislature trotted it out in support of CA's "jump the shark" package of gun control requiring bullet-button ARs to be registered as assault weapons.

[Zincwarrior]

Lie down with dogs...
This is part of the problem. Because the 75% of pollies now (worst polling ever) now have a negative view, you're lumping them in with a murderer? You know they are lumping you in with the Oklahoma bomber too right?


Everyone needs to back off the view that just because someone disagrees with you that they are evil.

[Mitch]

This is part of the problem. Because the 75% of pollies now (worst polling ever) now have a negative view, you're lumping them in with a murderer? You know they are lumping you in with the Oklahoma bomber too right?


Everyone needs to back off the view that just because someone disagrees with you that they are evil.

This is exactly what I'm saying. There's a large gap between having different policy ideas and OMG HE WANTS TO DESTROY AMERICA!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJ]

I've had nearly two decades of first-hand experience dealing with ANTIFA. Most of you really don't know what the hell youre talking about when it comes to political violence in our country.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about this, either here or in a future thread.

[DocGKR]

It has been my experience that most "experts" are not....

[Trukinjp13]

It was barely more than a week ago that there was an English cop taking on three jihadis with only a baton.

Yes we do not have the only good police in the world. Was simply a point. Armed police are a hell of a lot more useful, esp. if they are well trained.

[jc000]

I'd be very interested in hearing more about this, either here or in a future thread.

I'd be happy to talk about that maybe here but definitely offline. I doubt I'm the only one on here.

[NickS]

The media is helping idiot John Q. Public understand why a shot to the pelvic girdle area is so devastating to the human body.

Hollywood teaches everyone that unless somebody gets hit directly in the head or heart, they can just shake off a gunshot injury.

Prayers are being offered for the wounded Congressman. Glad the perp was killed on site.

[TAZ]

This is part of the problem. Because the 75% of pollies now (worst polling ever) now have a negative view, you're lumping them in with a murderer? You know they are lumping you in with the Oklahoma bomber too right?


Everyone needs to back off the view that just because someone disagrees with you that they are evil.

I tend to agree here wrt seeing those with different opinions as being evil. There is absolutely no need for that, and IMO it's retarded no matter what side of the coin it comes from.

However, with that stated I have no qualms about calling out folks whose speech has taken a turn away from civil, constructive discourse and gone towards hateful radicalizing propaganda. Whether that propaganda comes from the KKK, the RNC, DNC, ISIS is irrelevant to me. It's bad juju and folks doing so on large public forums need to be taken to task for it.

In today's world the internal hateful propaganda seems to be coming from the left leaning side of the aisle. That doesn't make all liberals assholes, just the ones spewing the violent rhetoric 24/7/365. Like it or not the human animal is just plane jane stupid and easy to manipulate. Words have an impact on people. Words can motivate people to all sorts of things. Good things and bad things. When we see people spewing propaganda in a manner that motivates folks towards criminal behavior we need to step up and stop it BEFORE things get out of control. We have seen the ANTIFA types use the latitude and motivation given them to escalate from screaming and such to low level violent attacks. We now have, thankfully, an outlier go very violent. Should we wait till more seriously violent attacks happen before we get our heads out of the sand and get the 24/7/365 propaganda under control and turned back towards civil and constructive discussion?

[Drang]

It was barely more than a week ago that there was an English cop taking on three jihadis with only a baton.
Not to minimize the Bobby's actions, but I don't believe he had to close across an open field to do so, in the face of gunfire.

On another note, did anyone else catch that an improvised tourniquet was applied? Luckily one of the members of the team was a veteran combat surgeon, but apparently no one had anything resembling a proper EDC.
Wow: Colleagues Rushed to Save Scalise’s Life - Cortney O'Brien (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2017/06/14/wow-congressmen-rushed-to-save-scalises-life-n2341039?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad=)

[HCountyGuy]

It has been my experience that most "experts" are not....

Is this your expert opinion?



I kid!

Apparently though this woman (Evy Poumpouras) was legitimately in the USSS, and was even on Obama's protective detail at one point. If anything it's just further proof that not all in the LE field are well-versed on firearms.

[1slow]

Sure we do. Because he's one of the lone standouts that's always trotted out when people try to make the false argument that right wing violence is on the same level of left-wing violence. Even if you were to wrap Hitler, Mussolini, Franco under the banner of "right-wing" violence (many would call fascism "left-wing") their body counts still pale in comparison to what the left is responsible for in the past 100 years from the Bolshevists to Castro.

The right was not randomly pepper-spraying, hitting with bike locks, beating, throwing objects, etc. innocent attendees of political events this past campaign. The left was, and on such a widespread level that a rally by the eventual winning candidate, in one of the countries most populous cities (Chicago) was actually shut down due to leftist violence.

Yes sure, we've heard of the Order, AB (which is nothing more than an ethnic prison gang, not a political group), abortion clinic bombers… it still all pales in comparison to the endemic violence of the left.

I've had nearly two decades of first-hand experience dealing with ANTIFA. Most of you really don't know what the hell youre talking about when it comes to political violence in our country.

This !

[Hot Sauce]

We're all wasting our breath, the real problem is guns.

17358He found an SKS on the street? Damn, I must be living on the wrong street.

[LOKNLOD]

Apparently though this woman (Evy Poumpouras) was legitimately in the USSS, and was even on Obama's protective detail at one point. If anything it's just further proof that not all in the LE field are well-versed on firearms.

I'm sorry but when I heard she was "on Obama's SS detail" I assumed that was just briefly while they were in a Colombian hotel.

[Ed L]

Remember Timothy McVeigh? Neither side has a corner on crazy-violent-anti-government.

I am not saying that either side has the corner on violent crazy anti government people. Once again, show me the paralells on the right to groups like like Antifa and BLM and the large scale hostility that we see in large protests and their over the top comments, and celebrities spewing hate at every opportunity, all of which creates an anti Trump and anti-Republican environment that is conducive to making certain people go over the edge.

[OlongJohnson]

Apparently though this woman (Evy Poumpouras) was legitimately in the USSS, and was even on Obama's protective detail at one point. If anything it's just further proof that not all in the LE field are well-versed on firearms.

Carrying on the propaganda mission, apparently.

[RoyGBiv]

First you'll have to identify one in their right mind...

Yeah, that was slow, fat and over the center of the plate.

[RoyGBiv]

This is exactly what I'm saying. There's a large gap between having different policy ideas and OMG HE WANTS TO DESTROY AMERICA!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree that much of the hype is unwarranted, but I DO believe that Obama WAS, in fact, trying to destroy America. Consciously.

[DT Guy]

I agree that much of the hype is unwarranted, but I DO believe that Obama WAS, in fact, trying to destroy America. Consciously.

I take him at his word; he was trying to 'fundamentally change' America. Change it from what the founders originally intended, apparently.

Larry

[HCM]

Deleted

[HCM]

I agree that much of the hype is unwarranted, but I DO believe that Obama WAS, in fact, trying to destroy America. Consciously.


I take him at his word; he was trying to 'fundamentally change' America. Change it from what the founders originally intended, apparently.

Larry

17420

[blues]

Yeah, that was slow, fat and over the center of the plate.

I'm not the slugger I once was, I have to wait for the right pitch...:cool:

[AMC]

Anyone see the FBI presser on the case? Gotta admit, I agree with those commenting that the feds' puzzlement on the shooters motives and planning seems way more like willful blindness than "abundance of caution". I think the FBI is so shell shocked by the last year of being dragged into the partisan political world that they're just not willing to state the obvious for fear of being labeled as closet Republican cheerleaders. At this point, I think a member of Congress could scream "I hate those (insert political party) bastards!".....open fire, and the FBI would shrug and say "Your guess is as good as mine."

[NEPAKevin]

Russia.
17510

[Peally]

Russia.
17510

As long as you've got warm clothes, a tent, and some food stashed in that pack you don't need anything else.

[Zincwarrior]

I am not saying that either side has the corner on violent crazy anti government people. Once again, show me the paralells on the right to groups like like Antifa and BLM and the large scale hostility that we see in large protests and their over the top comments, and celebrities spewing hate at every opportunity, all of which creates an anti Trump and anti-Republican environment that is conducive to making certain people go over the edge.

American Nazi Party
NeoNazis
KKK
the "civilian" militia groups.

[Peally]

I've yet to see hundreds of KKK members in the streets protesting and shutting down freeways. If anything those groups are the equivalent of the black panthers, irrelevant gutter trash almost-terrorists.

[Zincwarrior]

I've yet to see hundreds of KKK members in the streets protesting and shutting down freeways. If anything those groups are the equivalent of the black panthers, irrelevant gutter trash almost-terrorists.

In my time I've seen the Klan marching all right. Go to East Texas, they still exist there.

[45dotACP]

I've yet to see hundreds of KKK members in the streets protesting and shutting down freeways. If anything those groups are the equivalent of the black panthers, irrelevant gutter trash almost-terrorists.
*coughcough*Cliven Bundy*coughcough*

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Peally]

*coughcough*Cliven Bundy*coughcough*

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Touche, those retards did block a highway ;)

[Zincwarrior]

And some of their friends got into a gun battle with the PoPo on live video in Oregon/Washington (same place where its not 101 degrees right now anyway).

[Jeep]

American Nazi Party
NeoNazis
KKK
the "civilian" militia groups.

The American Nazi Party? I'm not sure they are still around, and there were never many of them. There were a bunch in Chicago back in the 1970's and they marched through heavily Jewish Skokie, but then it came out that their firebrand leader, a guy named "Collin" had changed his name from "Cohen," which apparently disillusioned some of his otherwise loyal party members. If they do exist, though, it is hard to see a "Nationalist Socialist Worker's Party" as being particularly "right wing." Certainly in the American context in which the "right" generally means those for limited government and the "left" means socialists and collectivists of various stripes.

Neo-Nazis? Maybe there are some who are fond of dressing up in SS uniforms and that kind of thing, but they don't seem to come outside to play very much, that I've seen.

KKK. I once saw a "Klan" march. About 15 of them, protected by hundreds of cops. They looked like a bunch of meth heads. Now the KKK used to be the para-military wing of the Southern Democratic party, but I doubt there are more than a couple hundred left in the US.

The "militia" groups? Again, not many of them, and the photos I've seen indicate not exactly the most physically fit people I've ever seen.

By contrast "antifa," BLM, the Revolutionary Communist Party and the various Trotskyite groups can turn out thousands--maybe nationally in the low tens of thousands" and seem to be far more active.

Putting aside my own view that fascists, Nazis, Communists, and "antifas" are all closely related species of collectivist totalitarians whose historical origins primarily stem from the "left" of the French revolution and thus are all properly characterized as lefties, I'd say that in the last 50 years political violence in the US has come overwhelmingly from the political left. The good thing is that we've had relatively little of it since the 1970's. The bad thing is it is ramping up again.

[Soggy]

Putting aside my own view that fascists, Nazis, Communists, and "antifas" are all closely related species of collectivist totalitarians whose historical origins primarily stem from the "left" of the French revolution and thus are all properly characterized as lefties, I'd say that in the last 50 years political violence in the US has come overwhelmingly from the political left. The good thing is that we've had relatively little of it since the 1970's. The bad thing is it is ramping up again.

I don't see small government types handing tenure, TV shows, pardons and parades to admitted terrorists and race baiter either.

[TAZ]

American Nazi Party
NeoNazis
KKK
the "civilian" militia groups.

Not to be technical, but the KKK is a child of the DNC for the most part. Not quite sure how conservatives got tagged with that bunch of twats. When I see ANTIFA vs KKK I think intolerant asshole Democrats eating each other rather than conservative vs liberal. But then I only slept through half my history classes.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Southern Democrats were the party of segregation. In the time of Nixon and Goldwater, the parties had a shakeup with liberal Republicans going Democratic and Conservative Democrats going Republican. The past history of the parties is interesting but we deal with what we got now.

For example, read the prose on immigration from 2000 era Democrats - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/the-democrats-immigration-mistake/528678/

Quite a change from now.

[Soggy]

The Southern Democrats were the party of segregation. In the time of Nixon and Goldwater, the parties had a shakeup with liberal Republicans going Democratic and Conservative Democrats going Republican. The past history of the parties is interesting but we deal with what we got now.

For example, read the prose on immigration from 2000 era Democrats - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/the-democrats-immigration-mistake/528678/

Quite a change from now.

Power hungry grifters doing what is expedient to get votes? How is that a change for the democrats? I don't see how that article supports your main contention.

One party ostensibly treats people as individuals, the other is obsessed with race. Not that I don't have issues with the gutless republicans, but this whole right=racist trope is pure bullshit no matter how feverishly it is clung to in the local faculty lounge or newsroom.

[TheNewbie]

As the south became less racist it became less democrat.

[Tamara]

This thread is like a No True Scotsman exhibition...

[TDA]

Well yeah, there's that.

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2016/02/26/yanss-070-the-no-true-scotsman-fallacy/

[Jeep]

This thread is like a No True Scotsman exhibition...

That's ok. No true Scotsman would read this thread anyway.

[Duelist]

Apparently, a Nebraska Democrat got fired for saying nasty things about wishing Scalise had died: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/powerpost/wp/2017/06/23/im-glad-he-got-shot-nebraska-democrat-caught-on-tape-criticizing-rep-steve-scalise/

And, Scalise is out of ICU and his condition is now upgraded to "serious": https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/23/rep-steve-scalise-out-intensive-care.amp.html