Which 9mm pistols have reliable ban-state magazines?

[asme]

I know this issue has come up in several threads over the past few months, but I figured another one in a different direction would not be a bad idea.

I am an armored car guard in California. In July, the exemption for people in our industry to possess and acquire high capacity magazines effectively goes away unless the firearm or magazines are somehow company-issued and kept at the branch when not in use. I carried a Glock 17 beforehand but I have never been impressed with how the 10-round magazines worked with anything but ball ammo. If you shoot anything like JHP or leadless "sinterfire" ammo through it, the magazines bind on the last round or a little bit of the follower goes "crack!" and falls off, or something.

I bought a glock 26 in preparation for waving my high capacity magazines goodbye and have been openly carrying it at work for the past few months. It's a little weird, but it's 10 rounds and it works. That said, a part of the reason for carrying a firearm is as a psychological deterrent, and for that I prefer a mean-looking full size handgun.

I'm asking for PF's anecdotal experience. Have you ever owned a full-size pistol, especially in 9mm, where the 10-round magazine works as well as the full capacity, even with ammo designed for shooting things other than paper?

[GardoneVT]

HK 10 rounders are trustworthy. I haven't had any issues with 10 round Beretta 92 magazines either.

[Sal Picante]

Beretta 10 rounds are quite reliable...

[fatdog]

I run the HK USP/C LEM as my primary gun, and when CDNN pushed the 10 round ban state P2000 USP/C mags out the door for $10 each last year I stocked up as my practice mags. They get beat up a lot, and I have never had a single malfunction of any sort with any ammo. Many thousands of rounds so far.

[MK11]

Long time ban state resident here. Smith M&P mags work fine, Sig 320 mags seem to work fine and Browning HP mags have all worked fine. Sig P-series 10 rounders also work fine as long as you run them in the specific gun they were designed for. My P228 will choke on 10 rounders designed for a P226 (yet it runs fine on high cap P 226 mags).

[TGS]

The correct answer here is "Pretty much everything but Glocks."

Glock is the only company that I know of that decided to implement some sort of retarded design. Pretty much everyone else just uses a different baseplate design that acts as a block, essentially just shortening the mag.

[JustOneGun]

If money is an issue working hard to find a reliable Glock 17/19 ten rounder would be perfect. You could just use an extension sleeve to make the grip larger.

If there is no reliable Glock 17/19 ten rounder then perhaps a platform change to a reliable pistol that was made to shoot 10 rounds or less? If money is not such a big deal perhaps moving to a 1911, etc? I suggest that because if your going to change platforms anyway then avoiding the whole, artificial low cap mag problem might be an option. Sort of, "the sky is the limit" idea.

[1986s4]

Any double column magazine that has been neutered to 10 by just shortening the mag body and using what is essentially a long baseplate seems to work just fine in my experience. Glock can make a reliable 10 round mag as evidenced by their G26 mag.
I think you have plenty of choices.

[Lost River]

Are you dead set on 9mm?

A .45 ACP Glock G30S would be a solid choice in that role.

It is G19 sized, many G19 holsters are interchangeable, and the G30S comes standard with 10 round mags.

I have no idea if it is mean looking though.

[spinmove_]

Word on the street is that Glock is starting to make 10 round double column mags which differ from their previous iterations. Haven't seen one in person yet, but they're far from being tested and fully vetted at this point.

From what I've heard and seen HK, SIG, Beretta, and S&W neutered mags either run well or well enough (I think he neutered M&P mags have issues ejecting because of the way the polymer on the lower part of the magazine body hits the magwell/frame). Either choose something from them or find something designed to have 10 rounds or less regardless of caliber.


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[Rex G]

Mean-looking, full-sized? 1911 not good enough?

Hmm. Walther P-38? ;)

Well, actually, I now usually carry a G19 in my police duty holster, largely because anything with a larger/longer grip tends to intercept me as I try to quickly exit the passenger side of a Ford Explorer-based Police Interceptor, and nobody has yet told me a G19 does not look mean enough. If limited to ten-round mags, I would seriously consider the similar-sized G30 or G30s. Actually, I would consider a G30 or G30s as a duty pistol, anyway, except that my chief only allows plainclothes officers to qual with a G30 or G30s as a primary duty weapon. I may well add a G30 or G30s, to use specifically for flying into ten-round-limited states. (If driving to a ten-round state, and therefore not worried about checked baggage being stolen, I will tote a 1911.)

[JTQ]

For the Glock lover is this an opportunity to play with the .45 GAP in a G37/G38?

[asme]

Mean-looking, full-sized? 1911 not good enough?

:D If only, single action pistols are not allowed at work, boooooo.

Licensing for the security industry is done by caliber here, obviously the easiest way to go is to carry .45--I have only 9 and 40 and sending in the reams of paperwork to get 45 added is a little involved.

[GOTURBACK]

I live in a restricted state and have been using 10 round magazines in my P30 in 9mm absolutely no problems whatsoever.

[Clobbersaurus]

Beretta 10 rounds are quite reliable...

My experience as well, mostly with Mec-Gar.

PX4 10 rounders are reliable as well, if you remove the factory grease they come caked in.

[Duelist]

Glock 19 cut to take 26 mags?

Something single stack?

The CZ I had with factory 10 round mags never had a bobble with them.

[Wonder9]

OEM Beretta 92 magazines

The 10 rounder is just a standard 15 round magazine with "dimples" to prevent more than 10 rounds.

[Larry Sellers]

OEM Beretta 92 magazines

The 10 rounder is just a standard 15 round magazine with "dimples" to prevent more than 10 rounds.
The CZ mags in my experience were the same way. Reliable with all types Of ammo.

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[GardoneVT]

I own no Glocks ,so perhaps this is common knowledge around the gun toting campfire, but what's the drawback to permanently blocking a 17 round Glock magazine to 10 rounds?

[Sam]

Asme, I'm limited by the roster and the three acceptable choices for a G19/G17 sized gun turn out to be Sig 226/229, HK USP/C/P2000 or Beretta 92. Not really any other acceptable striker choices on the roster. I picked up a couple of P2000s for a great price and have been happy with 10 round HK mags in my VP9s and P30s.

[Sam]

Deleted.

[DocGKR]

"I own no Glocks ,so perhaps this is common knowledge around the gun toting campfire, but what's the drawback to permanently blocking a 17 round Glock magazine to 10 rounds?'

CA DOJ has not been forthcoming or transparent in describing if this will be legal under the state's arcane, confusing, illogical regulations...

[Nephrology]

Are you dead set on 9mm?

A .45 ACP Glock G30S would be a solid choice in that role.

It is G19 sized, many G19 holsters are interchangeable, and the G30S comes standard with 10 round mags.

I have no idea if it is mean looking though.

I would also take a hard look ta the M&P45, especially used. I picked up an LE trade in M&P45 for $315 shipped with 3 mags. The night sights are on their last legs but the gun has been a true pleasure to shoot. Would certainly stake my life on it. I bought it specifically for the purpose of CCW back in my home state of CT, where all my family still lives and where I still hold a valid CCW permit.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I worked in WA state, on armored trucks, during the term of the, "Crime Bill" '96-'05. I started out with a revolver, but eventually upgunned to an HK USP .45 with ten round mags. I carried 230 grain Hydrashoks in it (state of the art, circa '96).

If I was back in the biz, in your state, I'd look at an MP FS in 9mm, with 10 rounders, or an MP .45 FS with 10 rounders.

We had guy's that carried G26's and 27's in Safariland duty rigs, but I thought it always looked a bit odd, especially if they were big guys.


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[rojocorsa]

I've never had any issue with factory or Mec-Gar Beretta 92 magazines.

[ffhounddog]

Glock 26 and of course 1911 in 9mm.

[ca survivor]

Glock 26 10+1, Sig 239 9mm 8+1, Shield 9mm 8+1, HK .45C 8+1 Sid 220 8+1, S&W .45 10+1 or the Compact 8+1 or any 1911 8+1 and if and limited to 10 rounds I rather be .45ACP even is if is only 8+1.

[SJC3081]

S&W M&P Compact 10 round.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I know this issue has come up in several threads over the past few months, but I figured another one in a different direction would not be a bad idea.

I am an armored car guard in California. In July, the exemption for people in our industry to possess and acquire high capacity magazines effectively goes away unless the firearm or magazines are somehow company-issued and kept at the branch when not in use. I carried a Glock 17 beforehand but I have never been impressed with how the 10-round magazines worked with anything but ball ammo. If you shoot anything like JHP or leadless "sinterfire" ammo through it, the magazines bind on the last round or a little bit of the follower goes "crack!" and falls off, or something.

I bought a glock 26 in preparation for waving my high capacity magazines goodbye and have been openly carrying it at work for the past few months. It's a little weird, but it's 10 rounds and it works. That said, a part of the reason for carrying a firearm is as a psychological deterrent, and for that I prefer a mean-looking full size handgun.

I'm asking for PF's anecdotal experience. Have you ever owned a full-size pistol, especially in 9mm, where the 10-round magazine works as well as the full capacity, even with ammo designed for shooting things other than paper?

I think some of you guys are missing the point.

He's looking for a full size, 10 round Duty gun, to be open carried whilst working as an armored truck guard. Nobody wants to open carry a small gun...

What do you think of a guy open carrying a j frame in a Serpa holster? I think, "What a dipshit...hide that thing."

So, suggestions for a full size pistol that you'd carry in a Duty rig that has reliable 10 round mags. My suggestion is still the MP 9 or 45 FS. I think DocGKR has had good results with that make/model pistol in CA configuration as well.


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[Nephrology]

I think some of you guys are missing the point.

He's looking for a full size, 10 round Duty gun, to be open carried whilst working as an armored truck guard. Nobody wants to open carry a small gun...

What do you think of a guy open carrying a j frame in a Serpa holster? I think, "What a dipshit...hide that thing."

So, suggestions for a full size pistol that you'd carry in a Duty rig that has reliable 10 round mags. My suggestion is still the MP 9 or 45 FS. I think DocGKR has had good results with that make/model pistol in CA configuration as well.


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H&K 9mms/.45s are also another solid call as you previously mentioned. When I lived in CT as it was going to the 10rd ban (and then promptly left), HKs and M&Ps in 9mm & .45 were what I had whittled my choice down to. Was also thinking about SIGs (P239/225 & P229/6 combo).

[Larry Sellers]

H&K 9mms/.45s are also another solid call as you previously mentioned. When I lived in CT as it was going to the 10rd ban (and then promptly left), HKs and M&Ps in 9mm & .45 were what I had whittled my choice down to. Was also thinking about SIGs (P239/225 & P229/6 combo).
This is the road I'm exploring now. The sig 225-a1 has my interest mow. Just trying to get my paws on one.

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[asme]

I appreciate all of the experience and brainstorming so far. Trying to stay perfectly above-board both with law and company policy while also staying safe has been a little bit of a headache.

Blocking a 17-round magazine to 10 rounds for use on duty is the easiest solution, but the DOJ here has offered very little guidance on at what point they consider a magazine "permanently altered" to accept 10 rounds. It's not the most airtight way to avoid civil and criminal liability.

I think, based on the advice given and the choices left available by the roster of handguns certified for sale, all roads lead to H und K. Buds has an "LE Package" LEM P2000 for sale at a pretty democratic price with factory night sights and three 10-round magazines. Would love to get an M&P, because I shoot less than I'd like to and the learning curve would be a little less steep, but they aren't on the roster and used ones that were snuck into the state are silly expensive. I should befriend a policeman and buy his old M&P.

I think the P2000 is the choice for me.

[GOTURBACK]

If you can put your hands on both the P2000 and the USP-9 I think that would be helpful, the trigger on the USP is better and the texture of the grip is better as well.

[asme]

If you can put your hands on both the P2000 and the USP-9 I think that would be helpful, the trigger on the USP is better and the texture of the grip is better as well.

I really won the "difficult to please" lottery--I'm left handed, the only USP on the roster is a V1, and I am not screwing around with installing a right side safety. I have shot both a USP-C and a USP and have been very accurate and happy with the feel, but I don't really want to play around with punches to make it useful off the range.

[OnionsAndDragons]

The P2000 is a rock-solid gun. It isn't even really rough in 40 if you decide to go that route.

As long as you can put in some time dry practicing, the LEM isn't as mysterious as folks make it out to be. It is not that hard to get to a point where you are splitting shots at real human evaluation/reaction levels.


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[Exiledviking]

Other options may be the Beretta PX4 in 9mm or 40 and the SIG SP2022 in 9mm or 40. I have not heard of anyone having issues with either gun with the 10 round mags. I have the PX4 in 9mm and friends have and use the SP2022.
And, this comes from someone who is a big P2000 and HK in general fan.

[newyork]

Putting a safety to the right side will be very easy for you. I wouldn't call it "screwing around" with it. It's meant to be modular and is not difficult. It can be swapped back easy too. Not swaying you to the usp, just letting you know.

Switching it over to LEM would be the harder thing to do but hk or an armorer could do it for you if you wanted lem.

[psalms144.1]

If I were in your shoes and was looking for a "mean" 9mm that runs well on neutered magazines, I'd go with one of the following:

HK USP or USPc
HK P2000
HK P30 or P30L
Beretta 92 or Px4
CZ P07

I'm sure there are other options, as it seems that just about everyone EXCEPT Glock can manage to make reliable 10-round magazines.

For uuse where looks aren't a requirement, the G26 is probably THE pistol I'd opt for when traveling to/through ban states.

[LSP552]

For use where looks aren't a requirement, the G26 is probably THE pistol I'd opt for when traveling to/through ban states.

I'm spending a lot of time in Rhode Island now and a G26 has been my constant companion. While RI doesn't have a mag ban, it's common for me to find myself in MA and CT. In RI, I carry the G26 with a factory +2 and a spare G19 mag. For the ban states, I just use a normal 10 rd G26 mag in the gun and on the belt.

Since I've been carry the G26 so much lately, I've been spending more practice time with the little gun. I really could live with just the G17 and G26. I find myself carrying the G19 less now than before being forced into the G26 as a primary up North.

[ffhounddog]

I still say a 1911 with a 10 round mag because well just 1911.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I still say a 1911 with a 10 round mag because well just 1911.

Most armored truck companies prohibit 1911's or cocked and locked semi-autos for safety reasons (unfortunately there is sloppy gun handling out there and a hardware solution is always cheaper at the corporate level) and also because customers are alarmed by seeing a cocked hammer on a firearm.

I know..."big deal," is what you and the rest of us think, but that's how it works. We had two guys that carried SA autos, and they were grandfathered in. Literally, they were grandfathers. And that hammer and adjustable sights on their pistols ATE the lining of their duty jackets.

Leather Duty holsters at the time did a GREAT job of engulfing all the moving parts on revolvers, including the hammer. Not so much on the pistols, due to design constraints. Minutiae, but not insignificant. I saw one of the aforementioned guys get his pistol tangled in his jacket lining when his draw was fouled, during a critical moment. Looked like a Marx Brothers sketch.


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[ffhounddog]

I did not know that interesting because all my 45 acp are 1911s


If I was limited to 10 rounds I would probably go 45 cap in a M&P 45 or Glock 30.

The p2000 and USCP are good option and I start looking like it in 40. Can probably find a H&K cheap right now in 40.

M&P 40s have been $299 on trade in and they are a good pistol. Also good 40 ammo is cheap right now. 180 grain jhp and 180 grain practice.

[ffhounddog]

I was thinking maybe if you go with a Sig P320. Then you have the option to go 45 or 9mm. Might be an option.

[Exiledviking]

I was thinking maybe if you go with a Sig P320. Then you have the option to go 45 or 9mm. Might be an option.
Unfortunately, none of the new generation guns are on the California "Safe Handgun Roster" including the P320 or the VP9 or APX or the gen 4 Glocks.

[spinmove_]

I was thinking maybe if you go with a Sig P320. Then you have the option to go 45 or 9mm. Might be an option.

A P320 originally chambered in 9mm/.40S&W/.357 SIG cannot support .45 Auto. A P320 chambered in .45 Auto cannot support 9mm/.40/.357. They're two differently sized FCUs.


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[HCM]

Unfortunately, none of the new generation guns are on the California "Safe Handgun Roster" including the P320 or the VP9 or APX or the gen 4 Glocks.

To save much typing and drama, here is the CA SOJ roster of handguns currently approved for sale in CA.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp

As a civilian in CA the OP can only buy new handguns specifically listed on this roster.

The only way to buy newer "off roster" guns like P320's, VP-9's etc now in CA is to find a used one in possession of someone who had it when they moved into CA or buy a used one from an LEO. Of course off roster used guns bring scalpers prices.

[Sam]

To save much typing and drama, here is the CA SOJ roster of handguns currently approved for sale in CA.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp

As a civilian in CA the OP can only buy new handguns specifically listed on this roster.

The only way to buy newer "off roster" guns like P320's, VP-9's etc now in CA is to find a used one in possession of someone who had it when they moved into CA or buy a used one from an LEO. Of course off roster used guns bring scalpers prices.

I would be very happy with some of the "off-roster" suggestions here even with limited capacity magazines (if I could get the guns).

[john c]

I didn't realize until reading this thread that the P2000 V2 LEM was on the roster. This pretty much seals the deal. I'll start recommending this to my non-LE buddies. I might consider a USP compact as a backup, for the modularity, but for me the rail is pretty important.

I tell all my buddies to get at least two (or more) of each pistol. You never know when it will fall off the roster.

[vandal]

Got a p2000 six months ago for 10rd mag reliability reasons. The CA >10rd mag possession law in CA kicks in next month. I shoot Glocks very well, my USP45C LEM pretty well, but I can't shoot my P2000 9mm LEM very well at all for some reason. If forced to choose between the P2000 and G26 right now I'd take the 26 and not look back. Which is weird since I expected the P2000 to shoot like a G19 sized gun.


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[MGW]

Got a p2000 six months ago for 10rd mag reliability reasons. The CA >10rd mag possession law in CA kicks in next month. I shoot Glocks very well, my USP45C LEM pretty well, but I can't shoot my P2000 9mm LEM very well at all for some reason. If forced to choose between the P2000 and G26 right now I'd take the 26 and not look back. Which is weird since I expected the P2000 to shoot like a G19 sized gun.


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For me the P2000 was difficult to transition to because of how far back the trigger broke. A friend of mine that shoots a V3 P30 picked it up and shot little bitty groups with it without issue.

It's a really good pistol. Just needs dedicated practice. Trying to shoot Glocks and LEM's would be very difficult to do in my opinion.

[vandal]

Glad to know I'm not crazy, or at least not because of this. After a long range trip my hand was pretty tired and at one point I had trouble pulling the trigger back far enough to go bang! It was a like one of those bad gun nightmares. I have big hands which I think contributed to the problem. I swapped to the bigger backstrap and the trigger problem disappeared but the big grip didn't really feel right for me either. For now the P2000 is a gun I keep in the safe for people with smaller hands.


For me the P2000 was difficult to transition to because of how far back the trigger broke.

[DocGKR]

The following duty pistols on the current state DOJ roster of new handguns approved for sale in California tend to have 10 rd magazines which work acceptably:

Beretta 92
HK P2000
HK USP
Sig P226
Sig P229

The Glock 26 and Glock 30 are also approved, but have reduced grip sizes which are not ideal for carry in a duty retention holster due to the short grip. A Glock 19 cut to accept G26 mags would work, but that is a significant effort.

A used M&P9 or M&P45 would also be good options.

[spinmove_]

The following duty pistols on the current state DOJ roster of new handguns approved for sale in California tend to have 10 rd magazines which work acceptably:

Beretta 92
HK P2000
HK USP
Sig P226
Sig P229

The Glock 26 and Glock 30 are also approved, but have reduced grip sizes which are not ideal for carry in a duty retention holster due to the short grip. A Glock 19 cut to accept G26 mags would work, but that is a significant effort.

A used M&P9 or M&P45 would also be good options.

I was screwing around and looking at the roster and noticed that the SP2022 was still on the list. Any word on their 10 round magazines?


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[asme]

Six pages of research, brain-racking and discussion, and then this: http://abc7.com/news/federal-judge-blocks-ca-ban-on-magazines-with-more-than-10-bullets/2165386/

heh

Haven't bought anything, still carrying my 26. Will go back to my 17 for the time being. Called Glock for a laugh to talk about magazines, they said they are sending me new followers that will "fix everything." We'll see. We'll see about all of it.

[Sal Picante]

I couldn't find some of my Beretta 10-round mags, so I sprung for some new MecGar 10 rounders.

Why? I need 'em for Canada/Australia/etc where I might shoot some IPSC. They're worked great so far. Same nice profile. They'll also accept the Ben Stoeger-style base pads, but I decided not to change 'em for now...

p/BWYZ2vgAYiQ

[spinmove_]

I couldn't find some of my Beretta 10-round mags, so I sprung for some new MecGar 10 rounders.

Why? I need 'em for Canada/Australia/etc where I might shoot some IPSC. They're worked great so far. Same nice profile. They'll also accept the Ben Stoeger-style base pads, but I decided not to change 'em for now...

p/BWYZ2vgAYiQ

Are they handling JHP ammo fine?

It's sounding more and more like Glock is the only pistol manufacturer that can't make a reliably functional 10 round magazine. Some other neutered mags may have idiosyncrasies that make them less than perfect, but it sounds like they at least feed reliably which is exactly what I want my magazines to never screw up.


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